Tom Werman

Tom Werman produced hit albums for Cheap Trick, Motley Crue, Twisted Sister, Molly Hatchet, Ted Nugent and Poison and then chucked it all to run a B&B in the Berkshires! Listen to hear how Tom lived up to his parents' expectations, even getting an MBA, before jumping ship for CBS Records and a legendary career in music.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts Podcast. My
guest today is record producer Tom Mormon. Know him from
his work with Cheap Trick, Ted Nugent, Twisted Sister Motley Crue.
Tom Good to have you, good to be here, wonderful,
real honor. So what was the first record you ever produced? Well?

(00:31):
I kind of co produced Ted Nugent, the Ted Nugent
Ted Nugent Record with Stranglehold on it Um. I signed
Ted and his manager actually owned his production contract, which
gave him the right to produce him. I wanted Pete
Townsend to produce him and piece. Pete's attorney had a

(00:53):
good laugh over that one. But anyway, I was forced
we Epic was forced to acce up this guy's role
as producer and I went into the studio to protect
my investment because it took me a long time and
a lot of tries to sign Ted Um. I had

(01:15):
offered three bands to Epic before that turned out to
be huge, but they passed UM. So so I went
into the studio and I started making a lot of suggestions, wait, wait, wait,
let's slow down a little bit. What those of us
before he came back on epic. We just know him
from Journey to the Center of the Mind. What was
Ted doing at the time, and why was he so

(01:37):
hard to sign? He wasn't hard to sign for me,
but it was hard for me to get the company
to accept the signings that I brought them. Um. I
had a boss who was really bright and really nice,
but knew very little about rock and roll. So um,

(01:59):
he passed on Kiss, Leonard, Skinners, and Rush, which I
had brought to the label free and clear, and um,
you know. The only other band I had signed in
the first six years at the label was Ario Speedwagon
and that was the first band I signed. Um. Anyway,

(02:21):
so I finally got an opportunity to sign Ted. And
at this point I really needed a hit because I've
been at the label for six years and only signed
one band and one successful band, and um, you know,
and our guys generally need to bat at least two

(02:42):
in order to keep their jobs. So I really wanted
to protect this investment. And I went into the studio
and I kind of horned in and just just one
question before of course, during most of the heyday, David
Krebs Liber Crebs were the managers? Were they the ones
who had the production deal? Was this someone for them? Now?
They were just the managers? Um? Yeah, lou Futterman had

(03:04):
the production deal. He owned Ted and he managed him.
He uh, I guess sold man the management to to David. Um.
David came out to Lansing, Michigan because Ted was opening
for Aerosmith. So so David came out to Arrows. David

(03:27):
was managing Aerosmith, and he came out and watched Ted
while I and my boss watched Ted because I invited
my boss to come out and see Ted because I'm okay,
it makes a question. Who is your boss? Uh? Steve
Popovitch at that time. Um, the former boss was Don Ellis,

(03:50):
who had gone over to our c A and Steve
Popovitch came up and he said, Worman, what what have
you been doing here for six years? And I said, well,
I tried to sign blah blah blah. And he said,
is there any when you were interested in? Now? I said, well,
actually Ted nugent Um. I didn't know much about Ted
at all, but um, you know his manager. Uh, this

(04:16):
this guy, Louke Fundaman nice man came in and said, hey,
Ted new did it is available? He played me a
little something, and I thought this was pretty good. So
I went to Chicago to see Ted play in a
very half empty auditorium at Illinois Institute of Technology, and
he was superb. Now we didn't talk politics. I want

(04:38):
to make that very clear, very clear. The whole time
I knew Ted, you know that we worked together, which
was five years. Um, we got along famously and the
subject of politics actually never came up because there was
nothing controversial back then. Um. So I enjoyed Ted. He

(05:03):
was appreciative. We worked very well together. A little bit slow. Okay,
go back to the story. So you went in as
co producer and you were making suggestions continue from there. Well, um,
you know, I actually didn't go in as co producer.
I went in as the label guy, you know, the
guy from the label D A and R Man who

(05:23):
was overseeing the project. And um, by the end, lou
Futterman mixed the record. I wasn't for some reason, I
wasn't around for the home mix. I didn't like it.
So I asked my boss could I have another five
thousand dollars to remix this record? And he agreed. I

(05:47):
went down to Atlanta to where we made the record,
and I remixed the record with the engineer and it
went platinum, and not necessarily because of my mix, but
it went nevertheless. And you know that means in the
record industry, Bang, you're a producer. You're beautiful, babe. So uh,

(06:11):
you know that. I continued in the office for a
few months, and then the Cheap trick of Project came up,
and and that was in color a little bit slower certainly. Uh,
if you were an in house guy, which you were,
did you get royalties on the records? Good question. We

(06:37):
didn't get a piece back then because it was our
job description. You know, you go out and you find
us acts. I did get um a nickel for for
every ten Newgent record we sold, and then I think
they've moved me up to twelve cents on um Cheap

(07:01):
trick Um. But this was a gift. There was no contract.
There was no agreement between me and the label for
me to get a royalty. Somewhere in the mid nineties.
It was a very big success right off the bad,
huge debut album, and it made the A and R guy,

(07:22):
you know, a millionaire instantly because they had instituted the
practice of cutting us in giving us a piece. Okay, Uh,
so let's go to a cheap trick. So you who
did sign cheap trick? I did. But Jack Douglas called

(07:45):
me two recommend to request that I go see them,
and uh, I love Jack Douglas. He had made Rocks,
the Aerosmith album, which I thought was among the best ever,
uh in terms of American rock and roll. So um,

(08:08):
I hopped on a plane, went right out to see
them in this little town in Illinois and we're from Rockford.
They were from Rackford, and they were playing in a
strip mall in a club packed, and um, you know
they were they were amazing. They were really really amazing.

(08:30):
So again I brought out my boss and we signed them,
and Jack made their first record, which was really a
great record, but not terribly commercial. Um, and I, you know,
I did the second record because Jack was busy with Aerosmith,

(08:53):
and I, you know, I as as a staff producer
in the day of FM and a M. I felt
that it was my assignment to get bands on AM
radio and get them hit singles because you know, it's

(09:17):
sold a ton of albums. So um, I made a
more commercial record, which was in color, and and then
I was I was irreversibly a producer because they Okay,
let's let's stop with in Color. I believe in Color
is the best cheap trick record. The one that Jack

(09:38):
Douglas made to start was darker. It had Mandicello, etcetera.
You made in Color. You certainly made Heaven Tonight, which
no one ever talks about taking me back, which I love.
But after that the band became heavier and from scuttle.
But they may have not have been happy with your

(10:01):
let's just call it more commercial sound, but that was
their definitive statement. That's right. Well, look, you know several
bands have well they slap you on the back in
high five you when they're selling gazillions of records, and
twenty years later you sucked. Um. You didn't capture their sound.

(10:23):
You were too lightweight. Again, I'm a pop guy. I
did not ask to be pigeonholed in metal or hard rock.
I enjoy it. I enjoy a lot of it. But
you know, I've had some disagreements in the press with

(10:44):
with Rick who said, you know why, he didn't know
anything about the piano on I want you to want me.
That's that's just not true. I'm not going to get
into that. I shouldn't get into that now. But UM,
I made hit singles. I tried to make hit singles.

(11:07):
UM the bands. I I felt that if I got
them on the radio, UM, and then they would get
the attention of a large audience and then they could
do what they wanted. UM. So that's what it did. Okay,
let's start with the in color. Let's go in depth.
So what is the process. They've made their first record,
they've gotten some notice, not commercially successful. How do you

(11:30):
so Jack is doing it? You tell the band you
want to produce it or how does it end up happening?
And do they immediately agree? Well, they asked me actually
to to to produce it. With the blessing of H.
Bruce Lundball, who was then the president of CBS Records. UM.

(11:52):
I was actually in the process of preparing to produce
Eddie Money's first album, UM and I had met with
Eddie and San Francisco and we were getting ready to
go when this whole cheap Trick needs a producer situation
came up and I met with Bruce and I said,

(12:16):
you know, quite frankly, I would I would rather do
cheap Trick and he said, okay, I can fix it,
and he ran interference for me with Bill Graham because
Bill Graham wasn't happy about this. The producer switch. Uh,

(12:37):
and that was it. We agreed they wanted to record
in l A. I had never been, but I was game,
and uh. We went out to to to the record
plan in l A and and Sound City and we
made in color. I went out there and I interviewed
an engineer over the phone. I didn't really know anything

(12:59):
about recording in l A. Remind me who that engineer was,
Gary Litdinski. We made sixteen records together. And you met
him over the phone. Yeah, I met him over the phone.
I interviewed a few guys over the phone, and he
was He was definitely the most modest, the most the funniest. Anyway.

(13:22):
He was a house engineer at the record plant, the
third Sweet Record Plant in l A, the Fable Record Plant,
my home away from home, and it was, you know,
we just had had a wonderful time and continued making
records for about five or six years. Okay, so let's

(13:42):
go back. Traditionally, the producer creates the budget. Need let's
just say if the beans from Illinois and you're living
in New York. Yeah, there's issues of hotel transportation, studio time.
At your level of inexperience, how did you come up
with a budget? You know, I actually don't remember how

(14:03):
we arrived at a budget. Um, but you know we
were We all went to l A together. We stayed
at the Sunset Marquee, which was cheap at the time.
Amazing and um, you know we made a deal. Uh,

(14:26):
Gary booked the studios because I just you know, deferred
to him about that. You know, there are studios he wanted.
There was a studio he wanted to track in, which
was Sound City, and then we went back to the
record plant, which he knew intimately two over dubbed and mix. Um,

(14:48):
it wasn't it. You know, the budgets weren't really a
big problem then they weren't that big. Well, the question
would be if you wanted more money or spend more money,
did the label push back? Well, it depended on what
they heard, you know, if it was developing into something

(15:09):
really good and you needed you needed to go over
budget like they do in films. Um, usually it was okay,
it was your asked on the line. You know, so
you're in l A. They show up, what state there was?
Stay within color? What was the state of the material? Well,

(15:33):
it was very It was pretty complete, and we had
a lot of songs to choose from, which is typical
for an album early in the band's career because they
spent ten years writing songs and then, you know, then
they have a hit record and they have to come

(15:54):
up with twelve more really good songs in three months.
So there was plenty of There was plenty of of
of material to choose from. And so did you rehearse her?
You just went reading the right in the studio? Well,
I I always um. I listened to their demos, and

(16:14):
I made notes and rearranged some things. It's you know,
and and we we went into a rehearsal studio. Wait wait,
wait what might you rear? What did you rearrange? What
level of rearrangement are we talking about? Well, you know,
some typical would be let's um, let's cut the intro

(16:36):
and half um change this UM, go to the ride
symbol instead of the high hat in the first verse.
We'll add a B three oregon in in the chorus.
Let's do this harmony? You you arranged and and maybe
you double the length of the guitar solo and you

(17:00):
fade instead of having a cold ending anything that occurs
to you, you know, if you're a good producer. I
think arranging is the is the main part of the gig. Um.
So I would make extensive notes and then we'd go
into a rehearsal studio with a boom box and we

(17:21):
would make a rough, um, you know, recordings in the
boom box of the changes we had made the new
version of the song. And uh we would then take
this little boom box cassette into the studio with us
so we could refer to it because it was a
new arrangement and maybe the band had been playing the

(17:44):
old arrangement for five years, day in and day out.
So so we would use it as a model to
what to what degree were the bands are open? Yeah? Well, um,
quite a They were quite agreeable, most of them, some

(18:06):
cheap cheap trick had a lot of As you make
more and more albums, if you make a second album
or a third album with the band, they almost always
became more involved in you know, in in creative input. Um.
Some bands that I worked with really use the studio

(18:30):
as a as a party room and uh, recorded on
the side instead of instead of going to record to
make a record and partying on the side. But those
bands were distracted more and left much more up to me. Um,

(18:50):
the bands were usually what we would do. What I
would do is say, listen, I think we should do this,
let's try it. We try it it. Usually if it
didn't work, we didn't do it. Um. Regardless of what
bands say, the producer is hired by the band. He

(19:11):
can be fired, he can be changed. Um, they don't
have to use him for the follow up record. Um. Hm.
The job of the producer is to help the band
realize its musical vision. And uh. He does not have
the power to say we're not going to do that
song or you have to do it this way unless

(19:32):
he's you know, a very very heavy producer, and and
you don't you know, the band doesn't want to alienate
him minutes their first record something like that. So Okay,
where did you get the confidence to make these changes
since you were newbie? Well I didn't. It didn't get

(19:55):
the confidence. But but I think that my ideas were
good enough that the band you know, considered them ricks
very smart. This was cheap picks a bunch of smart guys,
very talented, extremely good on on their instruments, and you

(20:15):
know that I think I think we had a mutual respect.
So every hit you make gives you a little more confidence.
It also it also makes you a little more afraid
of making a stiff the next time and being discovered

(20:35):
as a complete impostor. Okay, so an album like a
cheap trick in color. How much rehearsal did you do?
We probably did h four or five days. Okay, then
you go in the studio. When you go in the studio,
at that point, I believe there are twelve tracks on
that record. Have you already whittled it down to twelve

(20:58):
or you cut more than that? You cut more than that,
probably about fifteen or sixteen, and you know pretty quickly
which ones have potential um. In some cases you know
before you get into the studio which one is the
hit um or the most probable hit UM. So then

(21:19):
then you cut them down, uh to ten or twelve
you know, depending on how many you feel you should
have on the album and what the what the total
time is on both sides. Because that when you made
records that actually affected the level of the record if

(21:42):
you had a twelve you know, a very very long
uh side, then you just couldn't make it as loud. Um.
So that was that was a consideration. But after you
got down to your ten or twelve songs, um, again,
you would make a judgment usually and say, okay, these

(22:03):
are the good ones, let's spend most of our time
on them. And there there would be one or two turkeys,
and you would not spend very much time on those. Okay,
what is I say? Would you literally cut as I say?
There are ten tracks? And in color? Would you actually
cut fifteen? Yes? Okay, and then you would uh, you know, concentrate. Okay.

(22:27):
There are a couple of really big songs in retrospect
on in color? Did you know that I Want You
to Want Me? Was the single? Or Clock Strikes ten?
Or Southern Girls? You know, I I knew I want
You to Want Me was was very catchy. But but

(22:47):
again I treated it as a dance hall tune, like
a thirties song with attack piano and finger snaps. Um.
They changed it drastically, you know, for Buddhican or when
when they when they left the studio. Um. So I

(23:08):
didn't think that that was I can't remember the all
all the songs on the album uh right now, but
I don't think I thought that was the single. Well,
needless to say, the album comes out, gets a lot
of presses, love, but there is no hit single. So
then how do you end up then moving on to
Heaven Tonight. Well, they liked the record and Rolling Stone

(23:33):
named an album of the year, so you know it
was um it had credibility and the manager uh urged
them to uh to stay with me and and that's
what they did, I and and and Heaven Tonight. I

(23:54):
think that's one of the best records I ever produced. Um,
we just got along. We did well, and we thought
that the day would come if we kept at it. Okay,
that album comes out and tell us the story of
Buddha con Well, the story is quick. Um. I wasn't there.

(24:17):
I was finishing Ted's fifth album UH down at Criteria
in Miami, and I had about two weeks to go.
I guess I got a call from uh Lenny Pizze,
who was then Um. Yeah, he called me and he said, listen,

(24:37):
Cheap Trick is going to record in Japan at Buddha
con Um. We want you to go over there. And
and oversee the project. And I said, I can't leave ted.
I'm I'm busy here. I gotta finish this album. And
um so I'm I missed out on a wonderful experience.

(25:02):
Um you know which which was going. I've been to
Tokyo twice and I really love it. And boy were
they They were loved in Japan. So um that was that.
And and and we when we did Heaven Tonight, I
think it was Heaven Tonight or was it dream Police?

(25:24):
Dream Police that you put on the back burner? That's right,
we did. We finished dream Police in one month start
to finish, which was a real feat at that time,
not not these days, not even twenty years ago, but
in the seventies it was. It was a big deal.

(25:44):
And we we we broke our backs to finish that
because they were going out on tour and then Boudhican
exploded and they put Dream Police on the shelf for
eight months and that was that. Okay, to what degree
were you involved? Because I remember buying Buddhakan as an
import and then they were playing if you want Me
to Want Me, Want you to Want Me? On radio

(26:07):
and then it ultimately had a US release to what
did we were you involved in the album's production? None,
not whatsoever? You were at the label? Whose decision was
it to release the record in America? Well it was
I can't remember. I can't remember, but obviously it would

(26:29):
have been that it would have been the head of marketing,
the head of of an R, or the head of
the label Ronald Lexemburg at that time. Um it was.
It was a huge hit in uh in Japan, so
you know it was it was ours, it was free

(26:51):
and why not? It was an established band. Okay, so
dream Police comes out and it is not a success
full as he anticipated. It was like the whole world
was primed. I thought the quality was not as good
in the sales were not as good. What was their
perspective from your eyes? I thought the quality was was

(27:14):
very good. I thought it was the production values. We're
uh up up to Heaven Tonight. Um Entry Police was
was a reasonably successful single. I think the album was
did go platinum. So I don't know what what people expected,

(27:36):
but uh, it was. It was a hit album. I
mean all Heaven Tonight, Entry and Police were both platinum,
so I think it did as well as Heaven Tonight.
So How did it end with you in Cheap Trick, Well,
it ended amicably, but they decided to go with George Martin,

(27:58):
and I certainly couldn't argue with that. But it turns
out that that that the album they made with George
Martin was a relative stiff UH compared to the albums
that we had done in terms of sales. It's a
great album, but it it didn't. It didn't certainly didn't

(28:20):
do what I think everyone expected it to do, especially
with Sir George's involvement. And I have the greatest respect
for Sir George. Okay, but then they go on their

(28:42):
own journey of producer after producer. How can they will
come back to you? Who knows? Who knows? You know
you can make? I think making three or or more
albums with with the band for a producer is a
good run. UM. Many bands in those days went from

(29:05):
producer to producer every single album they made. Some stayed
with the same UH successful um formula UH for for
a long time. But I think it's perfectly natural for
UH Motley Crue two switch producers. After three albums with

(29:25):
me for Cheap Trick Um, the only UM see I
I did five records with Ted and five records with
Molly Hatchett. Um. Leaving those bands, it was my decision. Um.
But if a band chooses to leave, you know, they

(29:47):
want to grow in a different direction. They want a
producer who contributes different things. A producer's input can get
pretty stale too, you know. Uh, you have a specific
way of making a record and and specific talents musical
thoughts and ideas. Um. You know, I was good at

(30:10):
certain things. Other producers may have appealed to the band
because they're they were good at other things that the
band thought they needed. What things were you What things
were you good at? I was good at percussion. I
was good I think at UM, song structure, harmony, UH,

(30:31):
guitar fills in particular UM, working with the guitar player
UM and arranging keyboards or keyboard overdubs because most of
the band's didn't have keyboards, so there was a lot
of actual uh you know, musical composition or or or

(30:55):
bowl string that that I did. Um. I was not
at all tech nicol um. But uh, you know, there
may be in In many instances, a band can be
very fond of another band and they'll say, well, maybe

(31:16):
you know, if we use their producer, we can sound
we can we can get better, we can sound more
like them. We can you know, change. Okay, so let's
go back to the beginning. Where are you from Boston? Boston?
And you? Uh, what do your parents do for a
living in Boston. Well, they're both they they are both

(31:39):
died a long time ago. Uh. My father was in
real estate. He managed a few, a few holdings for
his family. He had uh siblings and they all we're
in partnership and he was the manager. UM. He retired

(32:02):
when he was about My mother was an interior decorator
and an executive secretary at Harvard and then head of
the what was it, the Boston Society of Architects UM
had secretary. So they were both heavily educated. And I

(32:23):
they sent me to private school and I was a
preppy and in an ivy league guy, and they hoped
that I would be a CEO, and I had absolutely
no talent for being a CEO because I I couldn't
see the big picture at all. I see, I don't.

(32:43):
I not only can't see the forest for the trees,
I see the bark, I can't. I can't even see
the tree. So producing was a good thing for me
to get into. Eventually, they were devastated when I went.
I told them I was leaving the ad agency for

(33:05):
rock and roll for CBS. Okay, let's go a little
bit slower. How many kids in the family in my family?
Or do I know your siblings? Just one sister, older sister? Okay?
Did you did she fly the straight and narrow? Yes? Okay.
So you go to Columbia and you're a music major. No, no, no,

(33:27):
I can't read and I can't write. Um, it's just
all in my head. I was wanted to be an
English major, wound up being a major and something called
economic geography. What the hell is that? Well, it's hard
to explain. It's like why is the wheat belt where

(33:50):
it is? Um. It was a strange, kind of an
amorphous subject um that had to do with the client
and topography and industry. UM. The only reason I I
majored in it was because I took it because it

(34:12):
sounded interesting. One course, I aced the final and the
professor said, if you have any interest in majoring in
this subject, I would highly recommend that you do. So
I said, I'm in because English. I loved English. UM.

(34:33):
And and uh. There are certain required courses in order
to major in a subject, and one of the required
courses was the history of English literature from sixteen sixteen
to seventeen eighty nine. And boy is that dry? I mean, ah, yeah,

(34:55):
I just couldn't pack it. So I said, I'm like,
I can't major in English. I've got to find in
another major. And I was busy playing guitar anyway. So
that begs the question, when did you get the music bug?
I think when I was I had it all my life,
but when I was nine. Yeah, I was just very

(35:16):
fortunate to be born at the right time. Elvis. I
discovered Elvis when I was nine. That was when he started,
really when he came on the scene. I'm the first
record I ever bought was Milkow Blues Boogie. And I

(35:36):
used to stand in front of the mirror and and
air guitar and and lip sync two Elvis records for
hours and hours, and I found that I just I
just absorbed all every song that I that I liked,
and I liked a lot of them, uh than in

(35:58):
the in the late fifties and mid fifties. Um, I
absorbed every single detail I I listened to serious uh
in my car now, and I'll listen to UM the
fifties on fifty and I'll hear a song that I
haven't heard since and and I'll know every lick and

(36:25):
and and it's a it's a damn shame because sometimes,
you know, I can't remember my wife's name, and yet
I remember all of these other things. I've got a
giant library of sound in my head. Um. I just

(36:47):
I just had to uh, you know, I have to
say that one of the one of the things that
really convinced me to take music, the music business seriously.
I saw three concerts in New York while I was
in college, uh and graduate school. Um. I saw the
Beatles first New York show at Carnegie Hall. I saw

(37:12):
the Stones first show in New York. And the best
one was the Who at the Fillmore East, playing Tommy
for the first time in America. And I was just
I mean it was. It was a major experience for me,

(37:35):
and I could not stay away from rock and roll.
I just could. So, I you know, I was in
an addie agency. I made a very foolish mistake, and
I hated my job. So I finally after a year
there I wrote a letter to Clive and and I said, listen,

(37:58):
I have an be a and and I have a job,
and I hate it, and I know a lot about
rock and roll. I'm a musician, and I think you
could benefit from my work there. And so I started
to interview and after a few months they hired me. Okay,

(38:22):
let's go back. So you listen to the Elvis songs.
When do you start to play? Around fourteen? Um, I
am found a guitar in my aunt's attic, really old guitar,
and I taught myself how to play. Um. I got

(38:45):
a few lessons in fingerpicking from Jim Queskin. From Jim Queskin,
the actual Jim Queskin. What was he up to when
you were taking lessons? Well, I wasn't taking lessons. He
was His father and my father were room mates, uh
in grad school, and Jim was that bu at the

(39:05):
time at Boston University, and so we had Jim over
for Sunday meals, you know, from time to time. He
was a starving college kid and I had I was
learning the guitar on my own, and so he he
taught me how to scrugs pick freight train and and

(39:27):
you said, a bunch of songs, um, and and then
you know, a few years later I would go to
Club forty seven and see the jug band. Um. I
recently saw Jim up here in the Berkshires with Jeff Muldar.
It was going. Know, he lives in Connecticut. I hear
from him every once in a while. You saw them
and they were playing, or you just interact, Oh yeah, no, no, no,

(39:48):
they Jim. Jeff's been up here twice in the last
seven or eight years. He probably comes more frequently than that.
But Um, Jim was playing and they were great. I
mean they were just as good as they used to be. Okay,
so you start playing, you form bands in high school. Yeah,

(40:10):
I had a folk of folk group initially, UM we had.
We used to rehearse every Sunday. We were six seventeen
and uh, we didn't have any gigs, and we would
finally got a couple of sweet sixteen parties in you know,

(40:34):
in in suburban homes, and we found ourselves singing to
actually just two of us, my friend and I would
would take our guitars and harmonize and we would sing
Josh White songs about syphilis and and death and heavy

(40:58):
blues we had no idea what we were saying about,
and the sixteen year old girls who were who were
surrounding us, you know, on the living room floor, really
had no idea what we were saying about. But we
got paid. We enjoyed it, and I said, you know,

(41:18):
this is a good thing. I like this. So when
I got to college, UM, I got into a band
right away, and then I formed my own band with
with what We formed a band when I was a
sophomore that was very uh successful, and unfortunately I turned

(41:40):
down an opportunity to go pro um because of Vietnam. Okay,
what kind of music did that band? Player? Covers Beatles, stones,
and birds almost exclusively, and maybe you know, uh one

(42:01):
or two motown things. And we were very we were
very good. Actually we played all over the Northeast colleges. UM.
We had a gig at one of three discos in
New York in n and Um we played a private

(42:22):
party I can't remember at whose place it was baby
Vincent Sarti and and thattt Weiss was there, and and
that Weiss introduced himself. We took a break and he said,
I Brian Epstein's lawyer, attorney in the States, and I

(42:44):
think you're good, and I think Brian would like to
hear you. And the conversation went something like, well, listen,
what would happen if we made a hit? We'd have
to go on tour, right And he replied, well, that's
what they usually do, and and I said, I'm sorry,

(43:07):
we can't do that because we're students and we'd lose
our deferment. And that was that. Okay. So you lived
through quite a change starting with Elvis. Then the pop
music of the early sixties was you know, bland, but
there was a big folks and then the Beatles hit.

(43:28):
What was it like living through that era? Fabulous? It
was just fabulous. I mean the avalanche of creativity that
came from England, you know, between nineteen whatever sixty three,
and it was it was unbelievable, overwhelming. Um there's the

(43:53):
most wonderful time to be a musician, to listen to music. Um,
I just I just loved it. I just look. Did
you like the Beatles right away? Like him? I I
ached to be a Beatle. They were they Elvis established
the cool bar, you know, in the mid fifties, and

(44:17):
he was the coolest thing you could be. When the
Beatles came along. They elevated the cool bar like infinitely,
and I said, she h, I mean aside from the
fact that they were the most the coolest guys in
the world. And we sat down. My My, uh, the

(44:37):
lead guitarists from our band and I sat down when
we met, and we reeled off together about twelve Beatles
songs and we both knew all the chords. We had
figured figured out how to play Beatles songs. The I
don't have any words for the Beatles. They were, you know,

(45:02):
they were the Beatles. I met George once. That was
really great. What was the experience, Well, you know, a
CBS convention. I don't know if you were ever familiar
with the CBS convention. They in the summer. We had
a sales convention at a different place every year, and

(45:22):
there would be dinner shows in the grand ballroom of
whatever hotel we were at. And these were dinner shows
for twelve hundred people, and Clive would invite every big
star that he possibly could, because you know, Clive loves
the company of big stars. And we were in London,

(45:44):
and uh, I was I. I had been in charge
of the English roster for Epic Records, and I was
with Jeff Beck and his and his girlfriend Celia, and
he was a guest at the show, and we were
down front. Um, otherwise I would have been back somewhere
in the rear, and we were. We get to our

(46:09):
table and um, having a glass of wine, and I
look around and at the next table making Keith. At
the next table, I just ploted. I couldn't believe it,
and and and so I'm trying to gather my wits

(46:31):
and a few minutes go by, and I look at
the table behind them, George and Ringo, and it was like,
you know, it was it was laughable, and I was.
I was, I don't think I've ever been so dazzled
in my life. So, you know, three four glasses of

(46:53):
wine later, George gets up to go to the men's room,
and I swallowed my pride and followed him into the ment.
I prudently waited till he washed his hands, and then
I introduced myself, and jeez, I just, you know, I
just hanging around and being with and working with celebrities,

(47:16):
and I knew that this was not a cool thing
to do, you know, go over to somebody's table and
say hi, I don't want to interrupt your dinner, but
I'm going to interrupt your dinner and ask me, you know.
So I felt awkward, but he was polite and we talked.
I told him who I was and who I worked

(47:38):
for and blah blah blah, and how what an incredible
influence that that the Beatles were on me? And I
could see me he was being polite, But then I
was desperate to prolonged the conversation, so I I started
to ask him about some of his um the guitar

(47:59):
parts he it um specifically. I remember asking him about
the little duet he played with himself, I got to
get you into my life, and and I mentioned the
the Revolver songs because that was his that was his
moment George as a writer. I think he had like
four maybe four songs on that album, including tax Man

(48:23):
and I want to tell You Great Rifle, Oh yeah,
oh yeah, and and so he um snapped to attention.
Really um. I could kind of tell that his eyes
were glazing over. But when we started talking about the guitar,
he said, oh yeah, so this guy knows something. Anyway,

(48:44):
that that was a wonderful experience. Okay, so who sang
in the band I did, and and the other guitarist. Okay,
so how do you decide to get an m B A. Well,
I didn't. Um. I didn't make any decisions in my
life until I was UM. I just was a trained poodle,

(49:11):
you know, a trained seal. And I did what my
parents wanted me to do. They invested a lot in me,
and I didn't want to disappoint them. So I went
to business school and also graduate school offered the chance
to lengthen, to prolong your educational deferment, and I didn't.

(49:36):
I disagreed with Vietnam. I didn't want to go to Vietnam.
So um dad had gone to Harvard Business School. I
I just went and got an m B A. I.
I was a stranger in a strange land. I didn't
enjoy it at all. I didn't do very well. Um.

(49:58):
But then you know, I got job offers from three companies,
and one of them was CBS Records, which I which
I considered too small, and and and we actually went
for the money in those days instead of doing what
we thought would would be, you know, something we'd enjoy.

(50:19):
I I was just I had no idea what I
was doing. So um I made my I made the
decision to take control of my life when I was
and desperate to get out of the AD Agency. Okay,
in retrospect, any benefit of going to get an m
b A other than deferring Vietnam for me? No, um I.

(50:49):
I was concentrated in marketing, and I always called marketing
advanced common sense. It's it was like we we would have,
of course is uh called human behavior and organizations. Yeah,
you know, and uh courses like that, and and then

(51:09):
we we'd have other courses that were mind blowing, uh,
just incredibly difficult for me. Operations research, which has advanced
statistical analysis. What am I going to do with that?
Am I ever going to use that? Not a chance?
So you know, I I gretted my teeth. Fortunately, we

(51:34):
had the riots that year at Columbia and they they
instituted past bail for the spring semester. And that's when
I was taking operations research. Okay, you know that was
a big deal, the Strawberry statement, et cetera. Were you
part of those protests? No? I had friends in the buildings.

(51:55):
Um I visited, but I did not. Um I did
not occupy. I was not an occupier. I was not
a demonstrator. I was sympathetic and I went to demonstrations
as a part of a crowd, but I did not

(52:17):
go into the buildings. Um. I was hospitalized, but not
on campus. I got savagely beat by by the NYPD
downtown at another demonstration, but at at Columbia. No. Okay,
So how did you know you graduate the Vietnam War

(52:38):
is still going on? How do you ultimately not go
to Vietnam? Well, I my number didn't come up. You know,
uh things things were over pretty soon after I graduated,
or you know, I had a I had a high number.
I think it was in the two as did I ultimately,

(52:58):
thank god. So but they were not drafting that many
people at that point. Let's talk about some of your productions.
Gary Myrick tell us the story there. I don't remember
how I got into involved with Gary, but I loved him. Um.
We had a wonderful We had a lot of fun.

(53:19):
Um I know he had I know she talks in stereo?
Was in What Valley Girl? Um? I was a fean
of Gary Myrick. So I I bought the album. I
went to seemn roxy the fact it was invaluable secondary
to me right right. Well, he was. He was unique.
He was probably a little ahead of his time. Um,

(53:40):
I loved it, and it didn't it didn't happen there.
You know that he was part of a handful of
bands that I worked with um over that twenty years
that didn't make it, that I thought were brilliant. But
in his case, he didn't even make another record for
a long time. He probably didn't. I lost track of

(54:03):
of Gary. I saw him again in Austin, Texas years later,
but um, he was great. I enjoyed him. Tell us
the story of Molly Hatchet. Um. I was remixing Southern
Girls uh for for cheap trick, uh so we could

(54:25):
release it as a single down at that studio in Atlanta,
UM with with that engineer that I that that did
the Ted Nugent Records with me and the manager for
this band from from Florida called me up and said,
I'd like to bring my band into your studio. They

(54:48):
can audition for you right there while you're working. And fine,
you know, I think I may have heard a demo. UM.
So I was agreeable. They came in, we took a
break from mixing. They set up in the studio blew
me away and I said, I really, you guys are good.

(55:10):
I'd like to sign you. And it was that simple.
We we did it. Um. I had never seen the
three guitar UH attack since skinnered and UM. You know
these Southern guys, they're tough guys, their street guys, but

(55:32):
they've got this almost delicate approach to uh two guitar
harmonies and parts. They're just I don't know how to
describe it, but but they're they're superb pickers, they're superb
players and sometimes syrupy suite. There was a guy in

(55:55):
Molly Hatchett, Dwayne Rowland, who he came from a broken home.
He was shot in the stomach by his father, and
he was he was one of the most amazing guitarists
I've ever seen. He never looked at the neck. He
doubled all his parts. Um. They were great, UH and

(56:18):
it was new to me, It was it was really new.
I found myself down in Orlando making their records, and
they would invite me out to two bars with them
after the after the session, where they like to drink
gallons of Jack Daniels and then clear the bar. They

(56:39):
loved to fight and here, I am as nice Jewish
boy from Boston. What am I doing here? What am
I doing with these guys? We had a great We
had a great time. We made five records together. I
just enjoyed being in their world, you know, and they
appreciated the actually appreciated me. We had nothing in common

(57:03):
in terms of lifestyle. It was It was great though, Okay,
whose decision was it to cover Dreams? Which was an
Almond Brothers song seen as part of the southern rock cannon.
Yet Molly Hatchett's version was quite dramatic in some ways,
even superior um. It was a guitar tour divorce, and
it was their idea. I wasn't really familiar with the

(57:28):
song when when they they they suggested that they do it,
and it was quite something in terms of guitar and uh,
what kind of input did you have with Molly Hatchett?
A lot, um well, about as much as I do

(57:48):
with anybody. Their songs were more um complete, more well
formed by the time they got into the stud video
they had their guitar solos together, which was which was
saying a lot for a band like Molly Hatchett, you know,
with with bands like especially with cheap tricks. Sometimes Rick

(58:13):
would come into the studio with fragments, and in the
studio while we were there, he would put maybe one
chorus from one song with the verse from another song.
And there was a lot of work in progress in

(58:34):
the studio there. It was. It wasn't spontaneous, but it
was not over rehearsed. Molly Hatchett had their had their
parts down because they played live a lot. And ultimately,
how do you leave epic and go independent? Well, the

(58:58):
truth is I had I had an office in the
Carlsburg Building over by Century City, I had a secretary,
I had a good salary, but I never went in
and I spent every day in the studio. I was
just producing, producing, producing, cranking him out. And Dick Asher,

(59:20):
who was then president of CBS Records, came to town.
I went to Dick, and I guess I I guess
I believed in what I was saying that. I said, Dick,
I think I deserve a raise. And he said, well, Tom,
you know, it's not the same record business that it
used to be. And he made this this excuse. In

(59:43):
that excuse, and I said, listen, I Dick, I really
I like you, and I love being here. I've been
here for twelve years. But if I don't get this raise,
I'm going to have to go somewhere else. And he
held firm and I left. Um. I was also, you know,

(01:00:04):
Joe Smith hired me at that point away from CBS
to go and be head of A and R at Electra,
and this was I said, Well at the time, I said,
you know, maybe it's time for me to go back
into the office and be an executive. And also, you know,

(01:00:26):
I can produce a few records for Electra and it's
a class label. And uh he did hire me. I
started there, and then Krasnow came in and I just
couldn't deal. So I left after three months. But but
really I left CBS because I didn't think they were

(01:00:48):
paying me enough. Um, I didn't make a real uh royalty.
I was making a third of what independent producers make.
And I sold billions and millions and millions of records
for Epic, you know, as a producer, and uh so

(01:01:10):
so so I said, I was a little frustrated by that.
And when I left, you know, I started making a
real street royalty. I mean, the same thing that other
successful producers made. So was your tenure at Electra. How
you got hooked up with Motley Crewe. Yeah, Tom Zoo

(01:01:34):
Taught was my assistant, and he wound up at you know,
he's he's he signed Guns and Roses and he was
a very good day in arm Man after he left Electra,
and he was he was a very good day in
arm And at Electra. But he he was at that
time my assistant, and he had signed Motley Crewe to

(01:01:58):
the label and he said, Wrman, I think you'd be
really the right producer for Motley Crewe. And just at
that time, um we made the record. It took off instantly,
and kras Now had come in and told us at

(01:02:23):
lunch with Bruce lund Ball, who was now second in
command at Electra, the first thing I'm gonna do is
dropped Motley Crew their embarrassment to this label. I said,
you know, as politely as I could, Bob Um. You know,
I have a great respect for your ear and for
the music you've you know, you've signed over at at

(01:02:46):
Warner Brothers. But somebody has to pay the bills, and
this is, you know, kind of my meat and potatoes.
Why don't you just let me take care of this
side of the roster. Uh, and he he wouldn't have it,
So I, uh, it was too late at that point
for him to drop Motley Crew. It would have been

(01:03:07):
a huge mistake and a big embarrassment to him. So
I said, Bob, I can't, I can't. You know, he
wanted to be head of an art. He wouldn't let
me do my job. So I left and they said,
would you, you know, make a deal with us, We
to do three albums a year, And I said sure, sure,

(01:03:32):
And Motley Crew was the first of those albums. Shouted
shout at the devil. And what were the other albums
of that three album deal? Theater of Pain and Girls
Girls Girls. Okay, so the deal was three Motley Crewe albums,
not three albums on the Electra roster. It was three
albums on the Elector roster. Um. The other one I

(01:03:55):
did right away was Docking to the Nail. Okay. So
what was it like? Work? You know, Molly Crew was
the street band. They had an independent records. You taught
signed them, you work. When they blew up? What was
it like because suddenly it went nuclear? Yeah, it was
a surprise to me, not that they could sell records

(01:04:17):
but how dominant they became h on on the l
A scene, and and and how huge it it became nationally. Uh,
I just never I've never seen that. That had never
happened with one of my bands. Um, So it was great.

(01:04:43):
And again it was an association that I really enjoyed
because they were the real bad boys of rock and
roll at the time. They they were so far from
what I was and how I grew up that it

(01:05:03):
was fascinating, and I enjoyed the outlaw association, you know.
It was kind of, I don't know, walk on the
wild side. I go out on the road with them,
and I've never seen anything like it, you know, And
it was it was fun. It was a lot of fun.

(01:05:24):
I really enjoyed working with Mick um highly underrated guitar player. Um.
Tommy was great. Nicky was dark, a little secretive. Tommy
was It was wonderful. He was a real He's like
a puppy dog. He's, you know, very enthusiastic about everything,

(01:05:47):
very cooperative and funny. Vince was great, but he was
he put party ahead of vocal. And what input did
you have to those wrecks? Well quite a bit, although
Nikki did throw out a little fiction. Uh in the

(01:06:09):
in in his Heroin Diaries book, Um, I I did
a lot of of stuff, a lot of musical. I
made a lot of musical contributions on on the records.
Because they were distracted, I could kind of get away

(01:06:30):
with uh, you know, with doing more of what I
wanted because they didn't seem to care that much. Nikki
was very serious and took the band very seriously and
as a serious songwriter. But they partied, you know then,

(01:06:52):
and they were there was a time there when they
were doing hard drugs, which is not conducive to either,
you know, decision making or progress in the studio. And
how do you handle a band that's on hard drugs?
Is your responsibility? Or you keep it at arms length? Well,

(01:07:15):
you you know, you try to be uh, you try
to join the band for the duration of the project. Um,
but you can't be too palsy. You can't get too
close with them because you have to at least try
to maintain some sense of authority. UM. You know, you

(01:07:39):
talk to them about why you guys are wasting a
lot of money. You gotta you really should show up
on time. We have to do this particular thing. Tomorrow,
so please don't go out tonight or don't you know
you try your best um to be uh, to talk
some sense into them. But you know, it's like Keith

(01:08:02):
Richards if you know, if you're if the session is
called for two pm and he doesn't show up till midnight,
what can you do? You sit there and you wait. Um.
You know when Nikki, when Nikki o'deed and was pronounced dead.

(01:08:23):
I called him the afternoon of the morning he was released,
and he said, you want to go out for sushi?
And we had sushi at some place in the valley.
Uh and and he was he had been pronounced dead
the night before. He was blue. And that's how these

(01:08:45):
guys were. I end up working with Poison. They also
had an independent label and I think you did independent
record that you did their first studio major label record.
They actually Rick Browdy did there did h It was
a talk dirty to me? Was that the name of

(01:09:06):
the album? I don't remember, but but he did their
first album. UM. Tom Wally was an A and R
man um you know at Capital. I think he signed
them and he called me and said, I'm interested in
having you produced this band. Uh, and we Tom Moehler,

(01:09:29):
their manager, arranged a lunch meeting between us, and they
had wanted I was told that they had wanted Paul
Stanley to produce the record, but he couldn't. So, UM
my name came up and we met and we got
along and uh, you know that that was a really

(01:09:56):
enjoyable project. Hard for me, uh, really difficult. And the
guys were very frank, especially Ricky and cc uh would
would say things like, I know I'm not, you know,
the best musician in the world, but you know, I'll

(01:10:16):
give it my best shot. And they were I didn't
use any ringers. I almost I used three ringers in
in my whole career for one or two songs. Um,
they did everything. People always ask me, Uh, did did

(01:10:39):
they really do this on poison? Did they do this?
They do that? There was there was. I used Willie
Nelson's harmonica player to do some harmonica parts and that
was it. Um, they were good guys. That that was
a fun, a fun project. Then I was really surprised

(01:11:01):
that we had four top ten singles from that album.
Was a huge album. Absolutely. So at this point in time,
you're completely independent. How are you getting gigs? You're waiting
for the phone to ring or you're pitching yourself. Um.
By the time poison came around, UM, I could see

(01:11:21):
the writing on the wall in terms of musical change. UM,
I was getting a little burnt out, and I kind
of was preparing for uh, the other side of the hill,
because you don't good producers can have careers at last

(01:11:45):
five years, ten years. Um mine mine lasted twenty years.
There's a handful out there legends who produced hits for
their entire lives. I knew that I wasn't one of those.

(01:12:05):
And UM, with the advent of ah never mind, I said,
wait a minute. You know, I left her the studio
one day and I heard my daughter playing license to
Ill and I went to her doorway of her room

(01:12:28):
and I said, Julia, well, Jules, I said, how can
you listen to that? It sounds like it was made
in five minutes, because that's how I felt. And she said,
but Dad, that's exactly it. And I said, oh shit,
everything I know is wrong. And you know, from that

(01:12:52):
time on the qualities that I tried to to have
for my records, UM, you know, timing, tuning, meter, UM organization.
We're not only um you know ignored they were rejected

(01:13:18):
by musicians. So I said, man, I can't make these records.
I you know, I don't. This is not this is
not what I do. My whole musical sense, uh would
not allow me to contribute to these to these bands,

(01:13:39):
and they wouldn't work with me because to work with
a producer who did Motley Crew in the early nineties
would be embarrassing and it would literally lose the band's
street credibility, you know, it would be an embarrassment to them.
So I started to um, you know, I had projects,

(01:14:05):
but I started to think about doing something else, you know,
and and walking away, which eventually I did, but it
took about seven or eight more years. So what was
that process and how did you decide to ultimately pull
the ripcord. Well, I wasn't working for a couple of years.

(01:14:34):
I did UM, I did kicks, I did l a guns,
I did lead a forward UM. I did three bands
for Geffen that need, none of which succeeded interesting bands,
and I would I played a lot of golf, and

(01:14:55):
I played a lot of golf with my good friend
Tom Kelly. It was a song her saying or he
wrote like a virgant and many others, and I would
bitch and moaned to him, and he he said, you
should read this book. And he gave me a book
called Who Moved My Cheese? And I read it in

(01:15:17):
forty minutes. And I stood up and I said, what
am I doing? I need to move on. I need
to go with the changes, reinvent myself. And honest to God,
two weeks later I was here in the Berkshires. I

(01:15:39):
found you know, this farm, this place, um. And that
was in February. In July, I had sold two houses
and we were living here and I mean it was quick,
you know. Uh. And and we renovated this place for

(01:16:01):
eight months and then we opened up. Linda Ronstadt was
our first guest, and Boylan came and Shelley Schultz came.
And we've been doing it for the last twenty years
and it's been bliss. Okay, let's just go back before
we go forward. How did you hook up with Twisted Sister? Oh? My,

(01:16:24):
here we go. Uh. Doug Morris called me and he
called me at home and he said, listen, I have
this band. Um. They're big in Europe, but they can't
get arrested. He said that I can't get arrested in
in the United States. I think you are the only

(01:16:46):
guy who can make a hit record with them. You know,
when a guy when when Doug Morris calls you, when
the president of a major label calls you and says,
please do this record for me, you do it. It's
that simple. So you know, I flew to somewhere in Pennsylvania, Harrisburg,

(01:17:09):
I think, to see them play in a club. We
had a good meeting. They seemed like really nice guys,
and I I'm sure that they wanted there was somebody
else I can't remember who that they wanted to produce them.
But they agreed and we went into the studio and

(01:17:32):
everything seemed to go well, and it certainly did commercially. Um.
But but after after we left the studio and the
recording was done and approved by the Snyder um he Um.

(01:17:54):
I don't know, he turned into some kind of doppelganger.
He started bad mouthing me and I I just think
my theory was that he had worked so hard on
this band for so long, um that when they finally

(01:18:16):
hit it, uh, he did not want anyone else to
get any credit. And I was a known producer at
the time and I think he was just piste off
that people would say, well, you know, they finally got
the right producer. So we had quite a cantankerous exchange.

(01:18:42):
I don't I don't get it. He's still to this day.
You know, in his book he wrote, I think that
Tom Warman completely destroyed our album. I mean, you know,
for a guy who who sold six million albums at
that time probably millions more by now, that's that's pretty

(01:19:07):
strange to say, I would think. But there you go.
But they did not have another commercial success after they
work with you. Correct, correct, and and and beyond that.
I mean, he he mocks me for for suggesting that
they do this, uh this song, Uh, I can't remember again,

(01:19:28):
I can't remember the name Strong Armor with the last
Saxon a stung by Saxon, this you know, European heavy
metal band. And he in interviews he said, can you
believe it? He he actually asked us to cover this song.
We we used a tour with Saxon, and he just
thought that was the most ridiculous thing. And what do

(01:19:48):
they do The next next album they do is with
Theeter Dirk's and what do they release as the single
Leader of the Pack I mean, come on, guys, little
hypocrisy there. So that's the deal I got. I can't
talk about you know, I get, I get really I

(01:20:10):
get a little wound up. Okay, are you continuing to
get paid on all these records? Yeah? Um. It's very
interesting what happened with royalties because the royalty stream, you know,
it was was healthy and then at the turn of

(01:20:31):
the century it started to diminish, um, And I could
see that it was going to go down. And then,
you know, who's going to listen to records that were made,
you know in in the mid nineteen seventies. Now nobody's
going to go out and by theies, by c d
s or anything like that. And it continued down till

(01:20:52):
about ten eight or ten years ago, and miraculous lee,
it started to increase, and it has been increasing every
year for the last eight years, um until now. It's uh,
it's just just it's a very fortunate mailbox money kind

(01:21:16):
of situation. Um. Statements and checks will show up that
I that are are big surprises, And I'm really grateful
because streaming has just you know, it's it's just multiplied things.
You've got every single person in the world who has
access to the internet can listen to any song they

(01:21:41):
want to at any time anywhere. It's amazing. So you know,
you take, uh, you know, a tenth of assent and
you multiply it by million people and it amounts to
some money. So, yes, I still make money from records
that I made forty years ago. Do you think you're

(01:22:05):
to what degree? If there's a hundred cents on the dollar,
how much do you think you're getting You mean being
ripped off, being ripped off by the people who own
the property are paying you. You know you have you
ever audited anybody? Yeah? Well, you know, auditing is tough.
It's very expensive, and people don't do contingency audits anymore

(01:22:30):
um I and and audits also have a statute of limitations.
So I haven't done any audits. I'm sure as you are,
and as probably everybody is, that we do not get
paid what we are contractually owed. But I get paid

(01:22:51):
enough so that I really don't care that that it's
so it's okay if they want to skim, if they
want to sheet me. I'm not saying that they do,
but if they did, it would be okay because they
pay me enough. That's how I feel, okay, and needless
to say, you don't get paid on those records you

(01:23:12):
made for epic, Um I do. I still I still
do get paid on those, um the biggest they are
not it's not very much compared to the compared to
the others. UM. But yes, well I thought that you

(01:23:33):
under your contract you didn't get it, but they like
kick you and Nickela record, was that ever contractually written down?
Eventually it was, uh, but you know I it was
contractually for a nickel you know. So with Ted I
made a Nickela record starting after the first one, UM

(01:23:57):
and they kept it at a Nickela record. And then
I think it was twelve cents for for Cheap Trick,
probably a little more for Molly Hatchett because after Cheap Trick,
I think we made a contract because I started I incorporated.
Uh my accountant said you should have, you should establish

(01:24:21):
a production company, um and and so I did, and
that production company got a larger royalty, probably twenty cents
or something like that for for the Molly Hatchet albums.
So I still get paid on on Ted Nugent, Cheap
Prick and Molly Hatchett from Sony and and it's you know,

(01:24:43):
it's it's nice. I met Tom Corson uh of Warner
Brothers or Warner Records, UM last year because my son
Daniel works works in A and R for Warner and
we were visiting him in Los Angeles, and um we
were somehow Tom and I got into a little conversation

(01:25:07):
about royalties and I said, yeah, it's it's remarkable. Really,
what's you know how how streaming has uh increased the
amount of royalties that that I'm making in the last
two or three years And he said, wait, and UH,

(01:25:27):
that was it was great to hear. Apparently, Um, those
who know think that screaming is well, screaming is obviously
the wave of the future and the present, but that
it's going to get even better. So okay, when you

(01:25:47):
read the book and you moved to the Berkshire's at
that time, did you have enough money that you didn't
have to make any more money for the rest of
your life or did you have to work? Um? I
had to. I think I had to work. I have
specific goals in terms of finances, uh for my kids

(01:26:10):
and m h I had I did I put a
million and a half dollars into this place right away,
and and so I and also it was a labor
of love. I didn't want to retire when I was
fifty five. I do now and I will in eleven

(01:26:31):
months completely we sold UM so Uh I didn't. If
if I had been paid uh uh a royalty on
the bands that I signed to CBS, which have sold
between a hundred and fifty and two hundred million albums,

(01:26:53):
I would have enough money. Well what bands did you
sign that we didn't mention Boston with with Lenny, you
know that UM I signed m Rio, Ted, Chief Trick,
Molly Hatchett, and Boston. I tried to sign Rush, Leonard

(01:27:14):
skinnerd Kiss, and I tried to get Columbia to sign
Manhattan Transfer. They didn't listen either. Okay, So you know,
usually just when you make something definitively I have a
definitive decision, all of a sudden things pop up in
your whole world. So you decide to open a B

(01:27:36):
and B in Massachusetts, All of a sudden people track
it down and produced records. They asked, yes, I'm not interested. Uh.
I did one single song in the last twenty years
as a guy sent me a demo and it was
a It was a novelty song. It was it was.

(01:27:56):
I thought it was extremely clever and if I an
ace it myself went down to Charlotte and uh and
we and we did a record there, and you know,
I didn't know how to promote it. I just wanted
to do it. It was great fun. But no, I
I'm not interested. The only band that I think I

(01:28:18):
could work with, or had thought I could work with
any time after the turn of the century was Food Fighters. Um,
I would Dave Grohl is the only idol I have
who's younger than I am. He's like so so devoted

(01:28:39):
to rock and roll. Uh you know, he's he's a
wonder a wonderful inspiration, and he's done so much for
rock and roll. And it was great because he grew
up knowing that rock and roll was a an integral
part of American culture and maybe even worldwide culture, whereas

(01:29:03):
my generation grew up knowing that our parents hated it,
that that they thought it was a fat and they
were waiting for it to go away. And and you
know when I said, well, I you know, I make
rock and roll records. When I was in my thirties,
I didn't have the the satisfaction that I have now

(01:29:26):
of of of saying that and thinking that in in
a very small way, I actually contributed something to American culture. Um.
Dave grohld was you know? I thought this was the
coolest thing you could do and one of the most
legitimate things he could do. Um, probably from birth? Okay,

(01:29:52):
why A B and B? Why in the Berkshires? And
how much of other than construction? How much of the
day to day did you and your wife actually do?
I do pretty much everything and have for the last
twenty years. I have a staff now, even though we're
very small. But I'm I'm tired, I'm old, and I

(01:30:13):
need help. Um. In the beginning, I did everything. Um It.
It's a be it. If you want to run a
good bed breakfast or a good establishment of any kind
that deals, you know, with people. Um, you need to
be obsessed with your immediate environment. I am a small,

(01:30:35):
detailed guy. I don't, as I said before, I don't
see the big picture. Um. People say, well, you know,
how do you go from being a producer to being
an innkeeper? Um? And really it's it's taking a a
collection of small pieces of things, bringing them all together,

(01:30:59):
make them work together. And then presenting it two people
for their enjoyment, and UM, you know that's what I
do here. I'm uh great attention to detail. Um we
we kind of pioneered the concept of a wired bed

(01:31:22):
and breakfast. UM. Now, everybody has a lot of conveniences,
but in two thousand one, there wasn't There probably wasn't
a bet breakfast in certainly in the county. UM that
offered DVD players in the room, big screen TVs, full

(01:31:42):
cable WiFi, you know, um Bose wave radios which were
cutting edge twenty years ago. Uh, and cook to order
breakfasts really full cook to order breakfast. I love making
breakfast and and it's a big part of our reputation.

(01:32:04):
People talk about it. People come here for the first
time and say, boy, I can't wait to have the
tomlet because that's my specialty, the tomlet. It's fun. It's
been great. So you've yourself cooked the breakfast absolutely every
day for twenty years. Okay, but that you know, when

(01:32:24):
you own it in you're working seven days a week.
That's right. Except you know, until this year, we have
a slow season this year because of the virus. We
had the biggest August September, October and November that we've
ever had. I don't you know. People people get cabin fever,

(01:32:44):
they have to get away. But normally it's it's very
slow from January to May. So we travel, you know,
we get we come to l A see you know,
we read a house on the Venice Canal, have a
great time my son, and we get some time off. Um. Otherwise,

(01:33:07):
it's it's fun. It's great to meet people. You know.
When I was producing, I would hide away in the
control room and I didn't want to see people. People
wanted to give me tapes back then, and I said, no,
I really don't want to meet this guy because he's
just gonna want something from me. Yeah, and he was.

(01:33:34):
You know, I wasn't particularly anxious to see anybody. When
I got here. I had to learn, and I did
learn quickly how to be more of a people person.
And I would see somebody drive up who was going
to check in, and I said, oh, she's I gotta

(01:33:54):
deal with these people now, and they'd come in. We'd
start to talk h and they'd have a story. Everyone
has a story, and it's interesting, it's really interesting. I
learned to listen to other people at least for a
few minutes, you know, after fifty five years, and I

(01:34:18):
really have enjoyed this. We've we've met a lot of
interesting people here, really interesting people. And we've had a
few Yeah, before he was nuts, we had Juliani here,
We've had we've had some really some some good musicians here.
We had Densmore from the Doors. We've had Bonnie Ray,

(01:34:42):
we had God, We've had actors and authors, musicians. It's
been great, it's really been great. We're very low key,
we're very under the radar. We do not advertise. It's
all word of mouth, and we've we've gotten awards. Um,

(01:35:05):
I'm ready to I'm ready to have a dog now. Okay,
So how do people find out about it? Originally word
of mouth. That took us three or four years to
build up a big enough clientele so that we actually
made a profit. And in it's heyday for the next
ensuing fifteen seventeen years, was it a real business? Could

(01:35:26):
you make real money? Yeah, we still make a profit.
It's not a lot, but it pretty much pays for
our lives. Why A B and B To begin with, Well,
we had stayed at B and B's and I always thought,
why why is a B and B set up so

(01:35:47):
that if your room has a radio in it, you
feel fortunate? I mean, why does it have to be
part of the B and B experience to have nothing?
You know? The deal is that the B and B
came about because people would inherit huge houses from their

(01:36:09):
parents and they couldn't afford to pay the taxes, so
they started taking in borders and they didn't have a
lot of money. You know, they put a china wash
basin in the room, and you know, some nice drapes,
and they throw fabric over everything in the house, fabric everywhere,

(01:36:33):
and so people didn't really establish B and b's. They
didn't have the money to establish b and bs. We did,
so I thought, well, it's it's about time that that
somebody offered people a chance to either commune with nature,

(01:36:53):
sit by the stream, or stay in bed and you know,
watch movies and check their email. Um. So, so I
think we were the first luxury bed and breakfast anywhere. Okay,
so you're it's eleven months till you leave because you're
training the new owners. No, the new owners are you know,

(01:37:16):
I can't talk about them right now. Um, they're from
l A. They there, they were guests here. They loved it,
and you know, they asked for right at first refusal
and eventually they they wanted to move. Uh. They were

(01:37:38):
in there in the kind of position that we were in.
Although they're doing well, Uh, there's there's there's not the
same uh situation. Uh. They're not saying, well, this is over,
I need to do something else. They're saying, I want

(01:37:59):
to do something else. So I'm gonna be kind of
consulting and teaching uh them how to run the place.
We are moving literally a mile away. We're moving down
the street. It's it's a gorgeous street. It's in the country.
We found a wonderful house and we had to buy

(01:38:20):
it a month ago because there's a huge land rush
on here. You know, people from the city are moving
up and we couldn't have we had to buy it
then because we would have lost it. So we have
to own it, pay taxes and mortgage on it for
a year. But it gives us a chance to work

(01:38:41):
on it. And I am more than ready to retire.
All my friends retired ten years ago. Okay, just because
you went back to the buship Berkshire's East coast, West coast. Well,
I loved l A. I didn't know anything about it. Um.

(01:39:02):
You know, it was during in color. We had a
day off and I took a walk. I walked up
from the Sunset Marquis to Sunset Boulevard and it was
very quiet, beautiful, calm, blue sky. I was walking along
the sidewalk, and all of a sudden it dawned on me.
I said, schmuck, you could live here. You could actually

(01:39:23):
live here. And I went back and I said, I
told my boss. He said, you know, I think I
could make much I could make better records in l A.
I'd be much happier and more productive. He said, you
want to move to l A. We'll move you. And
so you know, I uh, we we went to l A.

(01:39:45):
I loved it. I loved I still love it twenty
years worth. Um, we were there for twenty three years.
We lived just between Mulholland and Ventura in Laurel Canyon
and it was heaven. But um, it may sound cruel,

(01:40:06):
but one thing I think is that if you don't
have to be in l A, probably should be. Um.
It's so hard to get around now, but you know,
you have to plan strategically when you're gonna go where
you're gonna go or else, it takes you two hours
to get there. Um, and everybody has ways, you know.

(01:40:31):
A friend of mine said, when I first saw ways
and he demonstrated it from me years ago, I said,
that is fantastic, What an amazing development this is. He said, well,
you know it's good. It'll take you. It'll take you
around a circuitous route and put you on an unfamiliar
street and suddenly you'll realize you're not alone, you know.

(01:40:56):
But um, we go back every year. We have of
really good friends there, and I love it. It's a
fabulous city. California's a fabulous state. I love. I love
Northern California. Um, but you know, we're we're Easterners. Are
parents were here, they were all alive then, and um,

(01:41:20):
the kids are here. I love New York City. Also,
we're equidistance between New York and Boston, or from New
York and Boston. So um and Tanglewood is right down
the street, one of the great music venues of the world. Uh,
we can walk there in twelve minutes. We spent Sunday
afternoons on the lawn listening to the to the Boston Symphony.

(01:41:44):
It's Heaven, you know, and and and this is a
blue state. Remember we live in the bluest part of
the bluest state in the country. I love that. That's
a whole another discussion. But before I let you go,
what's your favorite record that you may I would say
Heaven Tonight pretty much right off the bat, and some reasons.

(01:42:09):
The production is great, the songs are great. Um, you
know you there are some. I mean, Heaven Tonight itself
is uh, the song it's uh about nine minutes. I
don't know. I just loved what I did. I like
I I know what my contributions were. I think they

(01:42:30):
were good. I think that the record was mixed well.
I think it's it's just when I listened to I
don't listen to my stuff, but but on the on
the rare occasion that I do, um or I hear
something from an album on the radio, and then I

(01:42:51):
come back here and I go to the I go
to YouTube, and I listened on my computer speakers here. Um,
I'm impressed, you know, I'm impressed. I say, you know you,
you did a good job there, and I think it's okay.
There are many albums that I listened to her, I say,
you shouldn't have done that. This should be louder. There

(01:43:14):
are plenty of spots in uh, in the three Cheap
Trick albums that I did, where I think Bunny should
be louder. I think the drums should have been a
little louder because because of what, because of his brilliant
playing and the kinds of fields that he did. But anyway,
that's it. That's that's the one I like the best,

(01:43:35):
I think. Okay, Tom, thanks so much for taking time
out of your literally busy day. Um sort of uh
disappointed that I'll never get to have your breakfast you meant,
and I'm not really a breakfast guy, but you sold
it pretty well. Oh it's it's delicious, and you know,
look you've got You've got an invitation anytime on us.

(01:43:58):
You know. It's uh, well, thank you. I don't know
if we'll be if I'll be leaving l A in
covid Era you right, but it'll be over in six months.
We hope it appears that way. And um, you know
you could be our guest. Well, I greatly appreciate that.
Hopefully I can do it anyway, Thanks so much for
doing this a lot of fun. Thank you, Bob. Until

(01:44:19):
next time, Mrs Bob left Sex