Warren Haynes

Warren Haynes is the number one utility player in rock music today. Whether with the Allman Brothers, Gov't Mule, the Dead or other acts, for decades Warren has been playing guitar, without airs, depending only on chops, on stages and in studios throughout the nation. Furthermore, his vocals are as sweet as his guitar licks. Here we cover Warren's start in North Carolina as well as the breakup of the Allman Brothers and more. Unassuming, yet articulate, Warren has miles of experience and is as vital as ever.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Lefts Podcast. My
guest today is a musician, Warren Age. Warren, how are you?
I'm good? Okay, So where are you right now? In
this corunap partners? I am in Westchester County, New York.
And how many people are in the house with you? Myself,
my wife, my eight year old son, and uh we

(00:30):
have he has a nanny that has been with us
the entire time, so we're all kind of quarantined together.
How do you feel about being this age and having
an eight year old kid? You know, that's a good,
uh good point. I I became a dad at fifty,
which was I don't know if it's recommended or not.
In my case, it worked out really good because I

(00:53):
was on the road so much, uh for most of
my life that I never really wanted to be a
m I a dad, And so now I'm able to
spend a lot more time with him, starting when he
was born, and especially now than I ever have. I'm
I'm at home more than I've been in the past
thirty years. And other than the coronavirus situation, why you

(01:15):
go at a home more? Well, once he was born,
I started kind of tailoring my schedule a little bit
to spend more time at home and to make it
where I could come back and forth more often and
that sort of thing. But uh, you know, it's it's
a challenge just getting connecting the dots. But I love

(01:35):
being a dad. In my I was gonna say fifties,
but I just turned sixty. So how did you pull
the trigger? What was what was the thought process after
fifty years? Uh, look, I guess you know so, Uh
you turned sixty. I turned sixty at this point seven
years ago really fucked me up. I found fifty fifty

(01:58):
was no big deal. House sixty, Well, sixty was a
little intimidating, and still is. But the fact that I
spent my sixtieth birthday uh quarantined and with just the
four of us was a little surreal in a in
a bizarre way. We my wife and I had talked

(02:19):
six months earlier or something about Okay, we're gonna make
a big deal out of it, We're gonna bring in
friends and family and have a big blowout. And by
the time it all came around, that wasn't really meant
to be. And then when my birthday actually happened, it's like, oh,
happy birthday, We're the three of us are having a
great time. And now I just remember, literally starting around

(02:40):
the time of my birthday, and I didn't anticipate it,
turning sixty. A lot of ship that was meaningful before
suddenly wasn't meaningful anymore. I guess I realized at some
point I would die. Have there been any emotional changes
turning sixty. Well, yeah, And I don't know how much
is attributed to turning sixty, and how much is attributed

(03:02):
to the coronavirus, because the same thing for me, uh,
which I don't recommend. Okay. So going back to your son,
you're talking about your road work. How many forgetting coronavirus?
How many days a year you on the road now?
Prior to this, probably a hundred, two hundred and fifty, okay.

(03:27):
And once your kids started to go to school, your
kids stays home, your kid comes with you. How do
you work that he stays home except when it is
convenient for him to come for a few days. And
then I just find myself coming back and forth a
lot more often, which is fine, but it's a lot

(03:49):
of If we have two days off, I'll go home
for two days and go back on the road for
four or five days and then come back home for
two more days, which is a lot of wear and tear,
but definitely worth it. Now you're really seen as a
road dog. So how are you filling this time? Well,
it's been a bit of adapting. Uh, I'm writing a lot,

(04:10):
which is great. That's the one of the down one
of the one of the few upsides. But um, in
the beginning, just a lot of kind of thinking about
how to reinvent and how to kind of reinterpret the
whole situation. Um. Gradually, I'm getting my setup more and

(04:34):
more together where I can uh do more playing and
recording and stuff. But in the beginning I was mostly
just writing on acoustic guitar and writing a lot of
lyrics and uh taking advantage of that. I don't think
I've written this much since. Okay, So, prior to the
COVID situation, did you have a home studio only a

(04:57):
small one. There's a studio close by that I work
in a lot, and I've been for the past three
years trying to either build by a studio of my own,
which has been like an ever changing process. It's a
work in progress. Uh. My ability to record here is limited,

(05:18):
but getting less limited. Um, but it's really making me
think of things differently, Like I haven't been to the
studio that I normally record, and I haven't been there
since the coronavirus. Are you pretty tech savvy now that
you're alone without an engineer? Are you familiar with pro
tools or logic or any of that other stuff. No,

(05:39):
you know, I've been telling myself that I needed to
learn pro tools for the for years now, and of
course this is gonna be a great opportunity. I'm gonna
have to force myself to do it. Okay, talk about
the writing process. Do you normally write songs or do
you say, put pick out a window, this is what
I'm gonna write a song? Or you wait for inspiration? Sure,

(06:00):
a normal routine. I usually wait for inspiration. I'm not
one of those people that rights every day or can
force myself to write. I know some people have good
luck with that, but I might go two or three
months without writing at all, and every time that happens,
I start getting this feeling of anxiety of have I

(06:23):
written my last song? And then eventually I'll write something,
and then another one will come pretty quickly. And another
one will come pretty quickly and I'm realized that I'm
back on the wave. But more often than not, it
starts with a lyrical idea. I find it easier to
write music based on a lyric that that already exists,

(06:47):
then vice versa. Now, having said that, in the past
six or eight years, I've been trying to do the opposite,
just to not fall into the pattern and to shake
things up a little bit. But I really enjoy working
that way. What I what I tend to notice is
that the up the up timpo songs start with the music,
and the mid tempo and down timpo songs usually start

(07:09):
with the lyric. Okay, so give me an example of
how you would latch onto a lyric. U Usually just
some sort of thought happens randomly, and I decide if
I like it or not. And these days I'm mostly
writing on the computer as opposed to by hand. Uh.

(07:30):
I do a lot of stream of consciousness writing. And
if the thought, if the initial thought appears to me
in a way that I feel like it's a hook
or a title, then maybe that gives me some sort
of incentive or direction. If it's just a clever idea,
or something that taps into me emotionally that I just

(07:51):
start writing until either until it starts feeling forced, or
until something appears that sounds like a chorus, or you know,
every situation is different. Um, I know. Greg Alman used
to say there's as many ways to write a song
as there are songs. Okay, what is your motivation for

(08:11):
writing songs? Is it something you say, I'm an artist,
I have to do it, or is it something you
would do even if you weren't releasing music, or it's
about having something to say? What makes you write songs?
I'm more grateful for being able to write songs than
just about anything else in the world. It's therapy for me.

(08:32):
It's a creative outlet. It's uh something, it's a learning challenge. Uh.
I feel like the majority of the stuff that I
write most people will never hear, and that's kind of bizarre.
But there have been a lot of songs that I
wound up releasing at some point that started out as

(08:53):
just a personal song that I've I feel like I
wrote for myself. Um, I'd never think of it like
I need to write or what can I do to
write a song that more people will tap into or
that will make money, or I don't. I never think
like that. I write the song first and then think

(09:15):
about later, Hey, is it any good be Is it
something I could do? Is it something someone else can do?
You know it. I don't even think about the categorization
of the tune until it's finished normally. So let's go
back to the beginning. You're from North Carolina, right, Yes,
we're in North Carolina, Asheville. Now Asheville, they you know,

(09:39):
it's kind of in the mountains. They got a ski area.
They have a rich person in a house there. You know,
what was it like growing up in Asheville. Well, when
I was growing up there, it wasn't the bohemian capital
of the South that it is now. Uh that's been
the past fifteen or twenty years that that transition had happened.

(10:00):
When I was growing up, a lot of great musicians, uh,
mostly guitar players, UM, a lot of bluegrass, a lot
of folk music, UM, and a lot of art and
a cool art scene. But it was much more underground,
unlike now where it's it's everywhere. It was always a
cool place. You know, being in the mountains is beautiful,

(10:21):
it's it's geographically beautiful, really great people. Uh, but I've
watched it kind of turned into what Austin is to
Texas Asheville is to North Carolina. Now, okay, so you
grew up what your parents do for a living? Um,
My parents divorced when I was eight, and I was

(10:44):
mostly raised by my dad, who worked in a grocery store.
They were both Uh they both grew up on farms
in Polk County, North Carolina, and then moved to the
big city of Ashville. Okay, just starting to Asheville. If
you want to leave Ashland, go to the big city.
What big city would you go to? Well, initially Nashville

(11:07):
was the closest one. And that's how far away? Five
hours by car? Not close, yeah, not close, but much
closer than New Yorker l a. Uh. So I went
to Nashville late eighty three, lived there. But before we
get there, let's say, Okay, your parents get divorced. Before
they got divorced, there were you Were you the only kid?

(11:29):
Or are the other kids? I have two older brothers,
two older brothers, how much older? Three years and five years? Okay,
your parents divorce, Uh, it's relatively uncommon for the kids
to go with the father. What was the thought process there?
You know? Uh, I was so young that I wasn't

(11:52):
such a big part of it. But it was unheard
of in the South at that time or anywhere, but
especially in the South at that time. Divorce was on
her of much less the dad getting the kids. UM.
I guess there was enough justification at that time for
my dad insisted that it that it be that way,

(12:12):
which for him meant working all day long and raising
three boys, which is uh, just an unbelievable task. Okay.
Was there ever a stepmother or stepfather my mom remarried.
I had a stepfather who passed away a little over
a year ago. Okay. And did you continue to have

(12:32):
contact with your mother growing up? Uh? We lost touch
for a short period of time, not much, um, and
it was a hard thing to get used to, uh,
but we eventually became closer and closer. It was a
bizarre situation for myself because my dad was When I

(12:56):
was really young, my dad was working all the time,
so it was me and my mom at home, and
then when she was gone, that changed completely. So it
was it was hard for me to adjust to My
older brothers did a little better job adjusting, I think, Um,
but she moved about an hour away, so we would

(13:18):
visit a lot. But you know, it was it was
uh not your normal as in Harriet type of situation.
Looking back at this age, deep into your life, do
you think your mother uh leaving to a great degree
affected you in certain ways that have sustained affected your adulthood. Yeah,

(13:42):
I'm sure, I'm sure it did. Uh. I'm sure it
had a lot to do with my gravitating towards uh
music and poetry and songwriting and and traveling and all
the things that I chose, you know, but um, at

(14:03):
the time, I don't think you can never really know
what motivates that. But yeah, I think So. Do you
ever go to therapy? No, I think, Uh, I've thought
about it a lot in recent years, but never done it.
And um, I think songwriting has kind of been my therapy,
and I've always felt like without it or music in general,

(14:27):
but songwriting, especially music, has has been so therapeutic for
me that I think without it, I don't I have
no idea how adjusted I would be. Okay, So you're
going to school, or you're a popular kid, or you're
good in school, what's that experience, like I was semi popular,
you know, not not mainstream, but the musician circle that

(14:53):
I ran in, there were there were several of us
that had some sort of popularity. I've surprisingly was a
good student. I graduated in the top five percent of
my class and was in the National Honor Society. Um
had scholarship offers that I turned down, which I think,
uh shocked my dad, but he was supportive. Okay, So

(15:18):
was there music in the house growing up. Yeah, my
dad listened to Hank Williams and Bill Monroe and uh
Merle Haggard and George Jones, Ralph Stanley, stuff like that.
Um My two older brothers have amazing taste in music

(15:39):
and had tons of records, eventually thousands of records. And eventually,
uh my middle brother collected to the point that he
started a record store of used in new records and
uh did that for about twenty five years and to
this day, I think he's got thousands of records, although

(16:00):
he closed the store a while back. Okay, how old
were you when he opened the store? Uh, I guess
I was in my twenties. Okay, so you were already
out of the house. Yeah, Okay, So when do you
first play a musical instrument. I started singing probably around

(16:20):
seven or eight, And thanks to my older brothers, they
had all this great soul music, the Temptations and the
Four Tops and Sam and Dave and Wilson Pickett. I
think James Brown was my first hero. Um we had
at a time when we only had a handful of records.

(16:40):
It was the best of Aretha Franklin, the best of
Stevie Wonder, the best of the Four Tops, you know,
all that stuff. And they also had the Beatles and
the Stones. Um and the fact that they had so
many records just kind of gave me this library to

(17:01):
dig through. My oldest brother got a guitar when I
was eleven, and uh, I played it more than he did.
So I got my own guitar when I was twelve. Okay, See,
were singing like singing in school, saying in the in
the school chorus and in church in the beginning when
I actually went to church, um, but mostly in my bedroom,

(17:23):
you know, uh, trying to sound like Wilson Pickett, but
sounded more like Smokey Robinson. Okay, so you pick up
the guitar. Your brothers guitar were levant you ever have lessons.
I took a handful of lessons from this guy named
Andy Hunter, who was a local UH blues guitar player
who was really great, but he was self taught, and

(17:43):
so after a few lessons, he kind of pulled me
aside and said, hey, you know, most of my students
don't even practice in the six days between lessons. I
can tell you're really serious about this. You should probably
just stay on the path of teaching yourself, which is
kind of the weirdest, most honest thing for someone to say, uh,

(18:05):
putting him out of work, But I think the fact
that he was self taught made him look at it
that way. I learned a lot from him, um, And
one of the things that stuck with me was his
fascination for what he considered the three Kings Freddie, B,
B and Albert. He said, if you listen to those
three guys your whole life, you still can't learn at all. Uh.

(18:29):
So that stayed with me. So how did you teach yourself? Uh?
Just records, skipping the needle back and play into records. Uh.
At some point I bought a music theory book and
just started studying that on my own and and in
high school I took a one semester course of music theory.

(18:50):
But mostly there were a circle of musicians that were
teaching each other how to play and playing together, and
we were all starting bands before we could even play,
which I think, looking back was probably a good thing
because we learned how to play music together, which is
very important. Okay, did you immediately? I knew from the

(19:12):
era we all and everybody in my generation a little
bit older than you played guitars, but it was clear.
I remember pretty much giving up when a friend of
mine said, Hey, we're gonna change keys, and I said,
We'll wait a second. It is a little too much
for me. So did you. It's always hard work to
be great, But did you feel you had a natural
affinity for it? I did. I felt like I had
an affinity for it. You know. I think everybody when

(19:35):
they first start, they think this is what I want
to do for the rest of my life. But then
that feeling dissipates at some point in a year or two,
and you start kind of losing interest. I just never
started losing interest. The interest uh increased, and I as
I got better, I kind of face the fact that

(19:57):
the more I learned, the more I wanted to do it.
And and when I was fourteen, there was a little
folk club down the street and I would sneak in
there when the drinking age was eighteen at that time,
and I would sneak in and hear these folk musicians
and it was just amazing here in live music like
that in a in a small environment. And then eventually

(20:20):
the word got out that I played guitar, so somebody
asked me to get up and play, and I did,
and then I was hooked. That's what I wanted to
do all the time. So you got up and play?
Would you play some blues or something? It was? It
was actually at that time the the stage in that club,
you couldn't put a drum kid on there. You could

(20:42):
only have two or three stringed instruments or something. But
there were a couple of people playing electric guitar, and
one of them gave me their electric guitar and and
I just played along and just remember I have a
visual recollection of that now and and and how it
felt as well. Uh, And it was just an amazing feeling,

(21:04):
something to tap into, something to be part of that
I had never experienced before. And what was the reaction
to anybody say, hey, kid, you're good to stay at it. Yeah,
there was a lot of encouragement, you know. Uh, the
um the local musician scene was very encouraging to me,
and so I would go there all the time, and

(21:26):
I met more and more of the local musicians and
they would all get me up to play. And that's
where I really developed this appreciation for folk music and
for songwriting in general, because a lot of those local
guys were fantastic songwriters and they were doing their own material.

(21:48):
And that was a revelation as well that these guys
are writing their own songs and they're really good. Then
they would also be playing Dylan songs and John Pryan
songs and uh, stuff like that. But it was turning
me onto this world of music that I was ready for.
So what was your first guitar? The first guitar I

(22:12):
had was called a Norma uh, and it was There
was a Norma Amp forty nine dollars and fifty nine
dollars respectively, and my dad got home at the local
hardware store. And how how long did it take to
graduate from that? I think probably a year or so.
I got a copy of a Gibson s G. There

(22:34):
was a hundred dollars about a year later, and then
about a year after that, I got a real Gibson
s G Jr. And my dad was really good about,
uh upgrading and just as long as I didn't lose interest,
he would continue to make sure I had a little
bit better guitar, a little bit better I amp. You know. Well,

(22:56):
I grew up in Connecticut. We would go into New
York Street whatever it was, and by where did you
actually buy the stuff you're in color? In North Carolina, Well,
there was a music store, oddly enough a few blocks
from my house. And when I would ride the bus
to and from school, that's where we would get on

(23:17):
and off. The bus was on that corner where the
music store was. And so at the at the end
of the day, Uh, the two or three people that
were in my circle of musician friends, we would get
off the bus and immediately go into the music store
and just geek out and look at everything and annoy
the people that ran it, you know, and let's try this,

(23:37):
let's try that, and spend hours in there, uh, which
in hindsight must have been really annoying, but they were
so supportive and nice and and then of course we're
friends now. But uh, we literally spent hours of our
day in the music store just playing instruments. You know.
And when did you start forming bands? I think almost

(24:02):
at the very beginning, you know, we were designing album
covers and you know every crazy thing that that kids do.
That uh the first time I think we played in public.
There were a few things, like we played a walkathon
where these poor people that had just walked twenty miles

(24:23):
when they when they were done, they got like free
punch and to sit and listen to us play. And
it must have been very painful. But they were a
captive audience. You know. We played a few things. They
were all free gigs. In the beginning. We would just
play anywhere anybody would have us know, and what material
were playing? Oh my goodness, back then, Uh whatever was

(24:46):
going on at the time. Uh where it be Grand
Funk railroad, Uh could be uh well, you know, oddly enough,
when I was fourt in their fifteen, we had a
band called Blue Sky that was named after the Allman
Brothers song and we had two drummers. And so how

(25:10):
foreshadowing is that? I mean, you know, we played a
handful of of all my brothers songs, but we played
a lot of other stuff as well, but we were
big enough fans to call our band that. So you
graduate from high school and you tell your father, what
what's the path? Then I want to go on the

(25:31):
road and play music and uh not go to college.
And he was, I'm sure extremely disappointed because I would
have been the first person in our family to go
to college. Um. But he said, if that's what you
want to do and you're gonna give it everything you got,

(25:51):
then you have my blessing. And he was always supportive
that way. Um, I'm not sure that I would the
same decision given that decision to make now, you know,
for his decision, I mean, uh, you know, if it
were my son, I'm not sure I would be so understanding. Well,
let's just say, hypothetically, if you would gone to college,

(26:14):
what would be it would have been different for you? Um?
Good question, you know, because a lot of bands starting college,
you know, especially uh the New York scene when I
came to New York and uh bands like Blues Traveler
and Spin Doctors and of course the Dave Matthews band

(26:35):
in Virginia. All those bands, Uh, started out playing together
in college and started a scene at their college. So
maybe I would have done that. But had I gone
to college, I would have probably going into some sort
of creative writing journalism type situation, because that's what all
my teachers were pushing me toward. None of them were

(26:56):
pushing me towards music. Okay, you started writing songs relatively
immediately after you went to the folk club, even prior,
I would say, but really terrible, like horrible songs. But uh,
from the very beginning, I was writing songs, if you
could call it that. I started writing poetry before I

(27:20):
picked up guitar, So as soon as uh, I started
playing guitar, that just changed to song lyrics. Um, and
I would hate to go back and have to face
up to whatever those songs were now. But but unlike
a lot of musicians, it wasn't the case even with
the Stones. But we're gonna make a record. You should

(27:42):
write your own material. You were writing your own material
at the beginning, even before the dream. Yeah, and uh,
you know, I guess uh bands from an earlier era
started out doing covers, but the era I was influenced

(28:04):
by at that time, I guess everybody was mostly writing
their own music, and I, in my head, that's what
you did. Okay. So you say you went to Nashville
when you were twenty three, what happened from eighteen when
you graduated from high school to tree. I was in
a band Locally. There was a band called Ricochet that

(28:26):
was kind of a Southern rock type band. I was
the youngest member of that band, and we were trying
to get a record deal with no clue as to
how to go about that. UM and that band went
through a few incarnations and broke up several times, and

(28:47):
then at the end, when the last incarnation reformed, we
did our very first gig. And the same day that
we played our first gig, I had gotten a phone
call UH from this guy that was playing UH in
David allen Coe's band, and he said, we're looking for

(29:08):
a guitar player. Are you interested? And I didn't really
know much about CO I didn't know his music, but
it seemed like a step up. And so after our
first reformed gig, I went to the guys and said, Hey,
I think I'm gonna take this gig and got on

(29:29):
a plane and UH flew to Baton Rouge Louisiana Christmas Eve,
and uh joined a situation that was I was totally
unprepared for okay, just to do a little backfilm. How

(29:49):
old were you when you first took the co gig? Uh?
I think I just turned twenty. Okay, so for the
two years since high school you were still living at home?
Were you making any money playing music? Uh? You know,
we were making enough money to be content. We we

(30:10):
weren't making very much money and it was not sustainable,
but it was at that time it was it felt
like a pretty good life. Um. I lived a friend
of mine named Matt Sluter. He and I had a
house together of our own that we rented for like

(30:30):
two hundred bucks a month or something. Um. But I
was only there about six months, and then that's when
I got the offer to go on the road and
wound up leaving. Uh. You know, like I said, at
the time, it just seemed like a step up, and

(30:50):
so I had to try and see what happened. Okay,
you say you were totally unprepared. Amplify that? Well? Is uh? Music, lifestyle, entourage, Uh, persona,
everything was the whole other world. You know. I was

(31:13):
this little genteel hippie kid from Asheville, and I was
thrust into this world of of bikers and and uh
rowdy craziness, which you know. I guess education comes in
all forms, right. Well the first musically, do you have

(31:35):
any because obviously you have to be anxious, did you
have any problem fitting in with the band? Well, we
had a phone conversation, and I don't really, I don't.
I didn't consider myself cocky, so to speak. I was
pretty shy, but I guess I was somewhat cocky on
the phone. Uh. He said, I'm looking for a guitar player,

(31:56):
and I said, well, I don't really consider myself a
country guitar player and I'm not really looking to be
a country guitar player. Uh. And he said, well, I'm
looking for a blues rock guitar player to add an
edge to my music. And I said, well, if you're
saying that I can play like myself, then I might

(32:17):
be interested. But if you want me to play like
somebody else, I'm not interested. And he he liked that,
and he said, I think you're gonna be just fine.
This is this is co himself for your being. It
was it was him himself who I had never met,
knew nothing about and uh, so I flew to Baton Rouge.

(32:38):
I took one guitar with me. The Airlines lost my guitar,
and on the phone he had said, you know, I said,
I don't know any your songs, and he said, well,
come sit in the audience for two or three nights,
or stand backstage and and listen to the show, and
after a few nights you should be ready to play.
And I didn't realize that he was completely lying to me.

(33:01):
He uh, I got there, they lost my guitar. I
went to sound check and I was bitching and cussing,
and he said, what's wrong? And I said, the Airlines
lost my guitar. And he said, well that's okay. When
we play tonight, you can play one of mine. And
I said, well, what do you mean. I'm gonna sit
and listen to the show for a few days. And

(33:21):
he's like, oh no, not, I changed my mind. You're
on tonight. And so I went on stage and played
a bunch of songs I've never heard before. Uh and
that was my audition. And were you replacing someone or
adding flavor? I was unbeknownst to me, I was the
only guitar player, the only guitar player. The other guitar

(33:42):
player had quit and it was me or nobody. So
that was the situation. But he didn't tell me that, Okay,
you're on the road, uh, the sex, the drugs. Are
you relatively innocent and all of a sudden there's craziness?
What's going on there? Yeah? I mean you know, I

(34:03):
knew some of that world from always being the youngest
musician in every band I was ever in, uh. And
that was the case throughout my life up up through
joining the Allman Brothers, up until Mark and Jonas and
o'teel and uh Derek Truck's joined the Allen Brothers. Up

(34:25):
until that point, I was the youngest person in every
band I was ever in. So I saw a lot
of debauchery that I wasn't connected to because in a
lot of cases it was a bit overwhelming, but it
kind of went with the territory. But I've never seen
anything like this. This was total mania, and I I

(34:51):
probably wanted to bail from the very beginning, probably from
the first week, if not the first day, but I
didn't want to give up. I didn't wanna be like, no,
I'm I'm I'm quitting, you know, I had to give
it a shot. And of course there were a lot
of upsides to it, you know. It was it was
uh being thrust into a world where I could make

(35:15):
records for the first time, travel all over the country,
go to Europe, all these things that I wanted to do. Um,
So it was a complete change for me, you know.
And are you a relative straight arrow or you the
type who likes to drink and drug at least some
point in your life. I think I'm pretty uh pretty

(35:40):
straight arrow as as relatively speaking. You know, I've been
alcohol free for thirty seven years or something like that.
And it's not because it was ever a problem with me. Uh,
it just wasn't my choice and it wasn't something I
was really that interested in. And how about drugs? Dabbled

(36:04):
but very little, you know, uh a lot of a
lot of smoking pot, okay. And then you have to
hit the last part of the trifecta. What about sex? Uh,
you know, less than average, I would say, you know,
it was there was some enticement early on when you

(36:25):
have no ties and connections to anything, but it just
never was my thing. So how long do you played
with Cole three years, three and a half years. And
how did that end? Um? I left his band in
January of eighty four, and about six months later he

(36:55):
called called me. He we had not spoken for a
long time or I quit and and he called me
and said, hey, I'm making a new record. Do you
want to come play on it? And I said yeah, sure,
And he said he won't come back on the road,
and I said no. And so then for the next
two or three records he would call me and asked

(37:15):
me to come in, but not for the whole record.
He was just asked me to play on two or
three songs, as opposed to in prior when I played
on the entire thing. So you quit? What was the plan? Uh? Two?
Go to Nashville pursue a career as a studio musician. Um.
It was the closest town to Asheville that had a

(37:39):
music scene and in five hours I could be home
in a car, So that part of it was was
kind of cool. Uh. I didn't know much about the
whole studio world, and when I started trying to thrust
myself in to it, there was a lot of learning.

(38:03):
But luckily I had learned a lot from being able
to play on on COEs records because he used all
studio musicians other than myself, and and for a while
UH Pedal Steel Player also played on the records, but
then he quit the situation as well. So I was

(38:23):
learning from all these A team studio pros that were
the best in the business, a lot of which had
moved there from Memphis and had played on you know,
all these great Memphis records and UH and some that
had moved from l A, but a lot of local
Nashville guys, and they were all just amazing at what
they did. But it was another world from what I did,

(38:46):
and so it was it was a lot to digest
and a lot to learn. As I started getting better
at it, and as I started getting more and more
UH demand or or more and more work offers, I
started realizing it's not really what I want to do.
I thought it was, but there wasn't enough being yourself,

(39:08):
you know. It was too much of a chameleon type experience.
You had to be what they wanted you to be
at pretty much every moment, and I couldn't really deal
with that. So what was the next step? UH? I
started thanks to this girl named Kim Morrison, who was
one of the people in Nashville that put together background

(39:31):
vocal groups. She called me one day and said, what
do you think about being part of some background vocal sessions?
And I said, well, you'd have to show me the ropes,
but yeah, sure, and so she did, and the next thing,
you know, I was spending more time in the studio singing,

(39:52):
singing background on other people's records and not playing guitar.
And uh. I did that for a couple of years,
and I would talk to the producers and about, hey,
had you know I also played guitar, And the Nashville
mentality is, oh no, we got plenty of guitar players.
You know, you're a singer. And so it was good
for me in the way that I really learned a

(40:15):
lot about singing, harmony and adapting to any situation like that.
And it was great vocal stamina training because some days
we'd sing for like ten hours. Um. And so I
had met Dicky Betts along the way. I had met him,
I think when I was twenty one, and had sat

(40:38):
in with him when I was in Ko's band, and
he had sat in with us, and we kind of
had become friends, but we didn't see each other that often.
And so one day Kim called me and said, I'm
putting together a vocal group to sing background on Dicky
Bets's record. Do you want to do it? And I'm
like absolutely. So I walked in the studio and Dicky

(41:00):
looked at me and and he was like, what are
you doing here? And I was like, oh, here to
sing harmony. He's like, oh, you got a guitar and
I was like, no, I didn't bring a guitar, and
he just kind of laughed and said, well good, I
don't want to hear you play anyway. And you know,
so we're just like joking around, but it planted this
seat in his head because one of the guys in

(41:21):
his band, Marty Prevent, the bass player, had been kind
of pushing Dicky to get me in his band. And
so what I realized was they were making this kind
of Nashville country record and it wasn't it wasn't very good.
It was it was pretty stale and and like an
attempt at being commercial but very generic. And I was

(41:45):
happy to sing on it and reconnect with him. Uh.
And then he called me out of the blue and said, hey, man,
Uh I scrapped that record. Uh, he said it just
wouldn't me. He said, uh, let's get together and write
some songs and make a can roll record. And so
we started writing and turned into his record pattern disruptive,

(42:07):
and that turned into me joining the all my brothers. Okay.
I know a lot of musicians, and it's frequently about relationships.
They say, oh, so and so called, but they were
big friends. Or as you say to the producer, hey,
I also play the guitar. To what degree were you
working at as far as selling yourself in greeting yourself

(42:33):
in the scene in order or are you sitting at
home waiting for the phone to ring. Well, I've never
been a super aggressive person. But someone told me when
I first came to Nashville that you have to take
every gig that's offered to you, and you have to
take every session that's offered to you, because the worst

(42:54):
one is going to lead you to something better. And
so I found that to be true. I would go
do these terrible gigs, uh, and these horrible recording sessions,
but I would meet somebody that called me three months
later and said, hey, I got this session or this gig,
do you want to do it. Um. So in that way,
I was open to whatever would happen. Uh. The the

(43:18):
final straw for doing those uh terrible gigs came for
me when I got a call to do this, uh
this gig in a club five sets a night dollars,
so it's five dollars a set. And we were in
the parking lot during one of the breaks and the

(43:40):
club owner came up tapping his watch, like, you boys
been on break too long? And I thought, no, I
think I'm done with this. I don't care if this
leads me to something else. I'm not doing this anymore.
And so, uh, my roommate went down and played the
gig the next night, and somebody fired a gun and
in the club, and I was like, well, it looks

(44:02):
like I got out just in time. But you know
it was. I met a lot of great people through these,
uh these situations that were far from my ideal. But
I think that's that's the way it works. If you're
gonna do that, you have to kind of open yourself
up to everything. Eventually you meet more and more people
that that can help. And and uh, you know, there's

(44:25):
a guitar player in Nashville named Kenny Greenberg, and he
you're gonna mention, Okay, Well, Kenny, Kenny and I became
friends and he was kind of the own. He was
the first call guitar player for uh blues and rock
sessions and stuff in Nashville, which at that time there
were not many Uh it was much more country dominated

(44:49):
than even it is now. Um. But he and I
became friends, and we did some gigs together and some
sessions together. And he called me one day and said, hey,
I get some overflows sometime times sessions that I can't do.
Can I give them to you if if I can't
do them? And I was like absolutely. I thought it
was a really cool thing for him to do. Uh.
He also recommended this gig that he couldn't do two

(45:14):
weeks with the Nighthawks, the Blues Ban the Nighthawks, And
I did that and it was a blast, and Jimmy
Hall was singing and playing harmonica and saxophone, and Jimmy
and I knew each other prior to that, but that's
where we really became close. Uh. But those kind of
relationships me and everything. Okay, you go to work with Dickey,

(45:36):
what's the what are the details to being part of
the reconstituted Almond Brothers. Well, first we wrote a bunch
of songs and made his solo record. And during that
whole time process, I had no clue that they were
thinking of reforming the Alma Brothers. Every time it was
ever brought up, it was met with a resound no,

(46:00):
that's never gonna happen. They had vowed to never never reform,
and as far as I knew, that was going to
remain the case. So we did Dickie's record. I was
in his band for about two and a half years,
and then after his record, we we did a tour
promoting the record, and then there was a break and

(46:22):
I at that time I had gotten my first offered
to sign a record deal with my own as a
solo artist. So in my mind, that's what I was
gonna do. Okay, well it's slow down. How did that
come about? Well, uh, it actually had been brewing for
a while. I had made up my mind I don't
want to be a session musician. I either want to

(46:43):
be in a band where I'm the singer or one
of the singers, or I want to be a solo artist.
But I can't do this anymore. And so I I
hired a manager, this guy named Doc Fields who was
passed away years ago. He was my first manager, and

(47:03):
he started sending recordings out and getting interest from some
record companies and me as an artist. I think I
was seven or twenty seven, and when Dickie called me,
there was already some things in the works and I
wasn't even sure I was gonna be able to juggle

(47:26):
all of it, and the being a solo artist was
was very important to me, and I was up front
with him and said, hey, I'm a huge fan and
I really really want to do this, but I'm also
getting this other offer that's very important and I'm not
sure I can make it all happen. Uh. We did
make it work out, and I kind of put my

(47:49):
record on hold for a long time to do his
record and then do the tour, and then when when
that was over, I thought, Okay, now I'm gonna start
focusing on making a solo record. And then they called
me and said we're putting the all my brothers back
together and we want you to join, which was a
complete shock to me. I absolutely had no idea that
it was coming, and I was like, ship, Okay, I

(48:12):
guess I'm gonna have to have to postpone my record
again because there's no way I could turn that down.
And what year is up? Nine? So eighty nine at
the time they put together the Only Brothers. How many
dates a year were they working then? Obviously we're just
getting back together. Well, they they had released this Dreams

(48:32):
box set for the twentieth anniversary, and uh, they wanted
to do a tour in support of that. So it
was a twentieth anniversary tour promoting the box set, and
it was only intended to be a one time thing. Uh. Gullibly,
maybe I believed that I was gonna go do this

(48:55):
tour and go back to to my life. I had
no idea that they would, based on the success and
the chemistry and the fact that everybody was getting along,
that they would say, oh, let's do it again next year,
and the next year and the next year. It was
a year by year thing, um, And I think it
probably surprised everybody. From the beginning. The chemistry of that band,

(49:18):
that incarnation of the band was was pretty uncanny. Right
from the beginning, the original members were getting along again,
everybody was playing great, The new members were fitting in well,
and it was just coming together in a way that
exceeded everybody's expectations. And I think the smartest thing that

(49:39):
the band did was go back to the early stuff,
the Duyne, Almond, Barry Oakley era stuff, and pattern everything
around that. Not worried so much about having to touch
on every era of the band. They weren't so happy
with the last few records they had made, so there

(50:02):
was an instant decision to divorce themselves from that part
of their career and try to get back to the
original sound. I think they realized because Dicky and I
had several conversations that even though they felt like they
had backed out of the music business because they weren't welcome, uh,
they weren't really fitting into the current eighties situation about

(50:27):
by the late eighties, Stevie Ray Vaughan was doing great,
The Grateful Dead were still doing great, Robert Cray and
I remember Dickie saying somewhere in between all that stuff
as us, so maybe maybe it is time for us
to come back. And so that's what happened. Okay, how
much of your year was working on the Almond Brothers

(50:49):
and what do you do with the rest of the
time less than half we uh, we had more than
six months to ourselves. So I was, you know, recording demos,
writing songs, playing gigs, uh, playing my music, and pursuing
all sorts of stuff. And and it was nice that
I had that much free time around the all my

(51:12):
Brothers schedule. Um, but the whole time thinking well, I
need to get in the studio because years were going
by without me making my first record. You know. I
recorded my first record in two that I had been
working on in my head since seven. Okay, you joined

(51:34):
the Allman Brothers. Do they treat you right? Are you
a member of the band? Uh? Not a member from
a business standpoint, you know. Um, but I think a
really smart decision on their part, which I would assume
that they really had to look at it this way
because of the music and the the legacy of that band.

(51:59):
It wasn't debt on stage as like the original members
and the new guys or the sidemen. It was it
was a band. Everybody was meant to contribute and and uh,
you know a lot of bands that reformed, you would
have the original members visually would be the band and

(52:19):
everybody else would be like the hired guns, but that
that was never meant to be what the Allman Brothers was.
So from the very very beginning, the latitude that they
gave us all was tremendous, you know, input, plenty of
space to play and that way, I felt extremely included.

(52:41):
And and and I was writing songs, co writing with Dickie.
They were, Uh. I sang a song on the first record.
I sang a song on the second record. Uh, you know,
there was like the third record, and I felt like
in the situation I was in, they were they were
really respectful of of my situation. So then Dicky gets

(53:05):
kicked out of the band. Give us your take on that.
I know it's dicey, but yeah, that was Uh, there
was a lot of water under the bridge. But between
eighty nine and that, when uh, when we when Government
Mule formed in late nine, Woody and I had no

(53:28):
um thoughts of leaving the Allman Brothers so to speak.
We were just doing a side project. But at that
time the Allman Brothers, the the original members, were not
getting along so well, and there was there was no writing,
no rehearsing, no recording, no communicating for that matter. And

(53:51):
so in Government Mule, all those things were flourishing, and
so it was the balance was shifting. So eventually, uh,
we felt like we needed to leave the Allman Brothers
in order to be taken seriously as government mule, because

(54:11):
it was turning into something more than a side project.
So in seven, Woody and I left the Alma Brothers
and it wasn't until I guess ninety nine that they
kicked Dickie out, which so I wasn't around for that. Um.

(54:31):
And that's that's a really touchy subject for for everybody,
but for myself, Dicky is the one that gave me
the opportunity. He's the one that brought me into the band.
He brought me into his band. He brought me into
the Alma Brothers. He insisted that I be a big
part of the writing process and the creative process and

(54:52):
and and you know, I feel like I owe him
a huge part of my career. And when was the
last time you talked to him? Uh? Last time I
talked to him was when he played peach Fest um

(55:13):
and we spoke briefly, but I listened to his his set,
and I guess that's been about a year ago. Okay,
you know, forgetting all the things that were said. One
of the discussions is that he was bipolar and would
sort of leave the boat for a while. Did you

(55:33):
experience that in your time with him? Well, suffice to
say the Allman Brothers was plagued with plenty of issues
along those lines. It's not really my place to examine
or report on on that. I knew the history of

(55:53):
the band before I joined, and you know, it extended
far beyond uh in any problems Dickie might have you know, um.
But there was a lot of drama for sure. I mean,
you know, there was a time period when Greg and

(56:15):
Dicky couldn't or wouldn't communicate, and so Dicky would come
to me and say, hey, warn't I can't talk to Greg.
Will you talk to him about this? And then Greg
would come to me and say, man, I can't talk
to Dicky, will you talk to him about this? And
I was literally pushed me pull you in the middle
and trying to to kind of be Switzerland and and

(56:38):
not take sides, but and trying to just speak my mind,
but also to stay out of age old family feuds
that have been there for a long long time. So Yes,
Government Mule started as a side project two questions, why
is a government mule and why is government spelled g

(56:59):
O v apostrophe t all right, So this story is
a little less politically correct as time goes on. But Uh,
we were looking for a name for our band and
the only thing we had thought of was drag Strip Courage,

(57:22):
which was from a Tom Waite song, and we didn't
like it, but it was the best thing we had
thought of, and we're all big Tom Waits fans. So
the All My Brothers were headlining one night of Memphis
and May, which is the Bell Street Festival in Memphis,
and we were headlining one night and James Brown was
headlining the next night. So the All Brothers entouries left

(57:46):
after the show and traveled from Memphis to Atlanta. Woody
Allen Woody, the bass player who was in Government Bullen
and in Uh, the All My Brothers and Jamo, one
of the two original drummers, and the Allma Brothers stayed
behind to see James Brown. And there was a part
of the show where James was waltzing with his what

(58:08):
they determined later to be his wife, and Uh, Jamo
was referring to her anatomy and he pointed and said
to Woody, is that James his wife? And what he said, Yeah,
I think so, and he said ship, government, mule and

(58:28):
he was referring to the size of her ass. Unbeknownst
to either of us in Gulfport, Mississippi, which is where
Jamo was from, that was a term. And so what
he called me and said, I think I have the
name for her. So we're named after James Brown's wife's

(58:49):
big ass. And why the apostrophe? Why not the full stop? Um?
It was like, you know, when you rubber stamp government
owned some crate somewhere. You know, I'm not sure why
we chose that. You know, names are are funny, you know.

(59:09):
I don't know any band name that would would be
good if the band wasn't good. But uh, it haunted
us in some ways because when we would go overseas,
they would say, so, what does it mean, goof to move?
What gov to move? What does it mean? Oh well,

(59:31):
g O V apostrophe team means government and mule. We
were referring referring to the forty acres in the mule
and that whole thing, you know. And there was a
song on the first record that talked about that. But
in a lot of places. It went completely over people's heads. Uh.
And we didn't talk about where the name came from

(59:53):
for a long time because James's wife passed away and
it it seemed inappropriate to talk about even under any circumstances.
Probably um. But then a few years ago Matt App's
our drummer uh spilled the being. So we used to
always just say, oh, whatever, whatever you think it means,
that's what it means. You. Okay, So you start this

(01:00:20):
side project, you're done with the Allman Brothers discovernment mule?
Are you essentially starting over? Enough people know you that
it's happening. To what degree is the success? Is there
a success in your eyes at the beginning? Well, I
think more so than we expected, more recognition than we

(01:00:42):
expected to happen so soon, because our first record was
meant to be a side project. It was meant to
be a really low budget, experimental, improvisation oriented type record
in the beginning, even more so than it wound up being.
By the time we actually got a record deal and

(01:01:02):
a producer in a studio and all that stuff, I'd
written more and more songs, so it became more of
a song oriented record. But in the beginning, I wanted
it to be very uh, the psychedelic and and and
low pressure, you know. Uh. I've been listening a lot
to this record by Pat Matheny and Roy Haines and

(01:01:23):
Dave Holland called Question Answer, and I read in the
liner notes that they went into the studio, played a
bunch of songs one time, never played a second take,
never listened back to anything, and then he went back
into the studio a couple of weeks later and with yes, yes, no,
yes no. And that's the way that they made that record.

(01:01:44):
And so that was kind of what I thought we
should do for the first Government Mule record. Uh. By
the time all the red tape had been dealt with,
it was turning into something more than that. And I'm
glad because uh I liked the more song orient to
uh uh aspect of it. You know. But in the beginning,

(01:02:05):
we're just doing something for fun. We had no aspirations
on leaving the Alma Brothers, are doing a second record
or doing a second tour. We're just doing something for
the fun of it. The way it came about was
myself and Alan Woodie and Greg Alman used to share
a tour bus, and we listened to a lot of
music on the bus, as opposed to the other band

(01:02:26):
bus where nobody listened to music. And we Uh, one
day we were listening to Cream or Hendrix or something
and what he commented, you know, nobody does this anymore,
the whole power trio improvisational trio, rock trio thing. Nobody's
done that. And I was like, yeah, you're right, and

(01:02:47):
he said, you know, with the right drummer, you and
I could do that, and I thought of Matt Apps
and so that's where the idea was born. Um, but
again just something for fun with very little ambition. As
it changed into something else, then our priorities changed. Okay,
but if that you ultimately say, we're not working with

(01:03:09):
the Allman Brothers were working with Government Mule, correct, Yeah, yeah,
So how did they pull you back in? Everything was
for Government Mule was was really going great and uh
from a creative standpoint, From a business standpoint, we had

(01:03:31):
made three records, the band was progressing musically all the time,
and then Alan Woody uh passed away unexpectedly in two thousand.
So at that point I felt like Government Mule was finished,
that we were done, and it took me a long

(01:03:52):
time to wrap my head around even the concept of
trying to replace him and trying to continue on. Uh.
It's hard enough to replace any founding member, but in
a trio, I think it's even harder because in a trio,
each person as kind of depending on their personality to

(01:04:14):
be a third of the music. You know, when you
look at Cream and and the Hendrix experience, and even
bands like led Zeppelin and Free that we're a trio
plus a singer or The Who or Mountain Uh. You know,
all these bands the bass player and the drummer were
having just by the nature of it to uh have

(01:04:36):
a much more aggressive role, which implied the need for
a lot of personality to come from those characters, you know,
and Alan Woodie was absolutely the perfect character for that.
That's why we we started the band in the first place.
So I was ready to two in Government Mule. The

(01:04:57):
first two phone calls I got were from Phil Lesh
who said, Man, I feel so bad. I I know
what it's like to lose someone that you have a
profound musical relationship with and and that was a very
heartfelt call. And the second call was from Greg who
uh he and Woody were very close and they were

(01:05:18):
they were they would ride motorcycles together. They uh, you know,
our bus was there was a lot of camaraderie on
our bus. And he was feeling the loss in a
very similar way to mind. But he understood, uh, my loss,
and and he said, how are you doing? And I said, well,

(01:05:43):
you know, I'm still having these dreams like where he's
in the dream. And just before he even thought about it,
he said, oh, You're always gonna have those, and I
was like wow. Until that moment, I didn't understand that

(01:06:05):
he had those all the time, you know, But not
during that phone call. But in one of the later
phone calls, he said, sure, love be have you back
in the Albam Brothers And so I thought, well, maybe
I should give it a try, you know. So we
we agreed to book the Beacon Theater for a ran

(01:06:28):
and they we're gonna call it the alban Brothers with
special guest Warren Haynes. So if it didn't work out,
it wouldn't look like I had rejoined and then quit.
So we did that, and the chemistry from the beginning,
everybody sounded great. Everybody was in great spirits and at
that time, I was thinking I can't really continue with

(01:06:50):
Government Mule, and so I found myself back in the
Albam Brothers. Uh and and I'm really glad that that happened. Uh.
Keeping Government Mule together was a whole another thing. We
came up with this idea which was born out of
this dinner that we had. We had dinner with myself,

(01:07:12):
my wife, Matt Apps, Alan Woody's wife, and Michael Barbierro
are producer, and somebody said, well, if you were going
to make a record, who would you want to play bass?
And I said Jack Bruce, no, seriously, John Entwistle, no, seriously,

(01:07:40):
Chris Squire no. And then we thought, well, why don't
we ask each of these guys to play one song?
And so that's how the whole deep End concept came about.
We thought, let's go to all Alan wood He's favorite
bass players and which are mostly our favorite bass players too,
and ask them all if they'll be involved in this record,

(01:08:02):
you know. So we spent this therapeutic time in the
studio every day, a new favorite legendary bass player standing
where Alan would he used to stand. And that's the
way that we forced ourselves to kind of get back
in the game. It was. It was cathartic, It was

(01:08:22):
bitter sweet because there were these moments of absolute joy
mixed in with all the pain and and more than anything, uh,
it was an opportunity to reinvent ourselves because I started thinking, Okay,
I've got to write a song for for Bootsty Collins.
I've got to write a song, uh, for for Jack Bruce,

(01:08:45):
I gotta write a song for for Larry Graham. You
know all these things that I didn't just want to
have people come in and play on any government Mule song.
I wanted them to play on a song that they
could insert their personalities into. And so by doing that,

(01:09:06):
we were able to kind of expand the the sound
of government Mule and the concept of government Mule to
include all these other influences that we all had anyway,
but had never been part of our band before. Okay,
so you have that track, that train running down the track,
you have the Allman Brothers. The Allman Brothers turned the

(01:09:27):
Beacon into quite a month there in March in New
York City. At what point do you say just staying
on the Allman Brothers tip at one point to say
I can't do this I have to do my own thing.
Um you mean at the at the very end, at
the very end. Well, I'm glad you you asked me that,

(01:09:48):
because that's not really what happened that. Um. That story
was so misconstrued in the in the press. Um. The
I've told the story and before, and Derek's told it before,
but it seems to be Uh. I guess it's hard
to get it to cut through all all the noise.

(01:10:09):
But the entire band had been talking about picking an
end date when we were not gonna do this forever. Uh.
A lot of the original members felt like at some point,
and and the new members as well, we all felt
like the All My Brothers isn't a band that can

(01:10:32):
just go play the hits and go through the motions. Uh,
play the same songs every night the same way. The
band has never been about that. It's always been an
improvisational band that gives a ten percent and leaves everything
on the stage every night and in in the event
that we can't do that anymore, rather than go out

(01:10:54):
there and watch it deteriorate and get worse and worse
year after year, then let's let's be aware of it
and pick out pick a time when we're gonna do
the last tour, the last show, uh, and everybody was
on board with that. With that concept, we were gonna

(01:11:14):
do the final show at Madison Square Garden, and I
think initially it was gonna be on Dwayne Alman's birthday.
And and you know, we had made all these plans together,
the entire band. Um As the end date got closer
and closer, some people started getting cold feet and saying,
I don't want to I don't think I want to

(01:11:35):
go through with this. I'm you know, I think we
would like to keep it going. And it was only
you know, one or two people that felt that way.
Everybody else was pretty uh committed to stay in with
the original concept. But when we would get together and
have these meetings about what about keeping it going longer

(01:11:57):
with Derek Trucks and myself had made plans we had
we had booked ourselves far beyond that concept, and it
would mean completely disrupting everything that that that we had
on the books and and going against everything that we
were doing. And and we all for the most part

(01:12:19):
still agreed that it was the right thing to do.
Um So, Butch had gone on this cruise and said
to a panel that, uh, the Allman Brothers was going
to continue and but that that Derek was no longer
going to be part of it, or something to that effect.
And he didn't realize that there was a rowing Stone

(01:12:41):
writer on the cruise that was was part of that.
And so as soon as they docked, the guy called
Burt Holme and the Allman Brothers manager and said, what's
going on? Bert called Derek. Derek called me, and uh,
We're like, well, you know we're on the same page,
aren't we. Aren't we continuing with this plan? And so uh,

(01:13:05):
Derek said, well, I think I think I should just
put out a press release saying that I'm leaving the
band because I can't do this. I have all this
other stuff committed to that I'm not willing to to change.
And I'm not speaking for Derek, but this is this
is the way it went down. And he and I
had kind of always made a pact um if you go,

(01:13:27):
I go. We had always felt that way that I
didn't want to be in the band without him, he
didn't want to be in the band without me, and
I think most of us kind of felt like this
is the last version of the Alma brothers, we should
we shouldn't water it down and take a chance on
deteriorating it by creating yet another incarnation this far down

(01:13:49):
the line. And so he said, well, I think that's
that's what we should do it. I said, well, if
you're gonna do that, then let's do it together. Let's
just put out a dual press release saying that this
is what's happening. And it was. It was really unfortunate
because we tried to take an advantage of the opportunity
to tell people in the media that that's what was happening.

(01:14:12):
But it was very awkward and uncomfortable. Uh So I
never did feel like uh I was leaving the band,
and and I and Derek never did either. It was
we were just going through with the plan that we
had had for several years. Okay, how did you end
up playing with the Dead Dead? And Phil Lesh? Uh?

(01:14:34):
Phil Lesh called me in the late nineties and said
that he had put together a list of musicians that
he wanted to work with and that I was on
that list, and was I interested in coming to California
for a few days rehearsal and do a couple of
shows and see what happened, and I said, absolutely, so

(01:14:56):
I flew to to California. We rehearsed for a couple
of days, we did, uh did two shows, and it
was a blast. I really enjoyed it, and that was
the beginning of very uh long running, beautiful relationship. Um.
It turned into me eventually being asked to tour with

(01:15:18):
the Dead in two thousand three and in two thousand nine,
and I really loved that experience. You know, I love
all those guys. I'm really honored to be part of that,
that family and that and part of that, uh, that
musical family. I guess it's unfortunate that, uh, there was

(01:15:40):
a lot of tension among the original members during the tours,
that there was a chance it was gonna go longer,
and probably could have and maybe should have, but it
wasn't meant to be. And having dealt with the Allman
brothers in a similar fashion, I respect that. You know,
when things are not jail ling on the road, these

(01:16:02):
bands have histories that predate everything, and so you know,
whenever there's tension and drama, it usually has something to
do with something that happened a long long time ago. Okay, Well,
needless to see the Allman Brothers are history, and phil
Lesh does not go on tour. Where does this leave

(01:16:25):
Warren Haines? Um. You know those years that I did that,
I juggled so much, so many balls, Like there was
one year I did the Allman Brothers and Mule and
the Dad and I didn't think it was possible. I
went to my wife and said, you know, I have

(01:16:47):
this this situation and it's being offered to me. I
don't see any way of making it work. And she
was like, slow down, do you want to look back
and think I had this opportunity? But I said no,
and I was like, yeah, maybe not. So we did

(01:17:11):
a lot of a lot of communicating, a lot of
you know, a lot of behind the scenes with all
the camps working together to make things work out in
a way that wasn't ideal for any of the situations
but worked for everybody. Um. So when that load was

(01:17:33):
removed and it made things a bit more normal for me,
you know, I really embraced and enjoyed at the time
working to the extent that I was. I love that.
You know, there's nothing I love more than playing music,
and I look at it like an athlete, you know,
when you're on top of your game and and there's

(01:17:56):
a demand, and you've got a great team or two
great teams or three great teams that you're lucky enough
to be part of, then yeah, let's make hay when
the sun shine and uh. You know, I really felt
wonderful about all that stuff. But then when it was
finally over, I'm like, oh, it is kind of nice
to be home for a minute. You know. Um these days,

(01:18:18):
you know, prior to the coronavirus, which leads us back
to where we were, I worked pretty much the amount
of time that I feel comfortable with and and you
know if I if I work less, I start to
get a little antsy uh, And I don't need to
to work more than I have been. It's it's been

(01:18:38):
a pretty rigorous schedule, which which I enjoy. But you know,
another another way I would compare it to being an
athlete is like, you know, I'm I'm sixty years old.
I'm very happy that I've had the career that I've
had and had the opportunities that I've had, and I
want to be like John Lee Hooker playing when I'm eighty.

(01:18:59):
But at the same time, there are windows that we're
confronted with you know, there, you're not going to be
able to do what you do in the prime of
your life for every year of your life. And so
I've always felt like things kind of dwin to let

(01:19:21):
their own pace, and um, whatever slowing down occurs, it
occurs because it needs to and it's the right thing.
And uh, I feel it's very organic, you know. So
do the hundred hundred twenty dates a year, you do? Now,
how many of those are Government Mule and one are
the other ones mostly mule? You know. I do a

(01:19:44):
handful of solo acoustic shows. Uh, do a handful of
shows with Phil lash and and uh a handful of
other things where something really interesting will come along. You know.
I did the last Waltz tour, which was a bl
asked um. But Government Mule is the main priority, and

(01:20:05):
and any work as a solo artist beyond that, you know. Uh,
I'm really looking forward to making another solo record, but
I'm also looking forward to making another Mule record. Um.
You know, I feel like I'm so lucky as a songwriter.
I'm lucky in every aspect of my career. I'm just

(01:20:26):
really grateful for the opportunities that I've had. Uh, it
really kind of played out exactly like I hoped, in
a way that one could never predict or expect. But
I'm lucky in the way that I write all these songs.
Some of them are not meant to be government mule songs.
Some of them were not meant to be all them
brothers songs. Some of them maybe we're not intended for

(01:20:48):
for me. But the fact that I have all these
different outlets and that you know, maybe somebody else will
wind up recording it, or maybe I just wrote it
for the gratification of of writing the song. Um, you know,
when all those situations were happening, I would find myself
writing for the sake of the song. And when the

(01:21:09):
song was written, as we talked about earlier, then I
would think, oh, is this a mule song? Could this
be an Allam brother song? Is this something I would
do on one of my solo records. But I never
wanted to think about that during the writing process. I
wanted to wait and back up away from it and
figure it out after the fact. So at this point,

(01:21:30):
and don't be humble, what is the dream? What is
it that you want to achieve? Certainly you can play,
But what is the goal now, whether you achieve it
or not. Well, it probably sounds stupid to say, but
I don't think I've made my best record, and I
don't think I've written my best song. Think the goal

(01:21:51):
for me is to keep going in a way that
I feel like I'm breaking new ground because I've been
really lucky to have that opportunity to keep not repeating myself.
You know. Uh, somebody asked me, like role models, not

(01:22:13):
so much role models in a humanitarian way, but he
role models in a in a career way, or a
history way, or a music way. Miles Davis to me,
the fact that he was constantly reinventing himself and by
the time people got used to his new music, he
was already thinking about something else that they weren't going

(01:22:34):
to get used to for another couple of years. That's
been such a wonderful example for all of us that
I tend you know, I can only take a small
amount of that advice for in the parameters that that
I'm given, But I think of it like that. I think,
you know, I don't want to redo what I've already done,

(01:22:55):
you know. And and as musicians, we don't really have
a lot of choice in that matter, and I somehow
have managed to have a little more choice than the
average person, you know, to to make those decisions that
I'm not gonna remake my first record and my second
record and my third record. I'm gonna make something that's
completely different and if people get it, great, you know,

(01:23:18):
but it's something I need to do. Well. Just staying
on that point, how lucrative is your career been? Uh,
I have no complaints whatsoever, you know. I've been successful
as a musician, as an artist, as a songwriter, you know,

(01:23:39):
and and and lucky enough to have written songs for
for people that uh, you know, like when I wrote
Two of a Kind working on a Full House for
Garth Brooks. Uh. When I co wrote that song, I
had no idea that it was going to become such
a huge number one song that would keep generating income

(01:24:03):
for years to come. Um, and I'm I'm very thankful
for that, you know, George Jones recording one of my songs,
and he's one of my heroes, so that, even aside
from the money part of it, I was just so
honored to have people like George Jones and John may
All that I grew up listening to recording my tunes.

(01:24:23):
You know. It's uh, that's there's some gratification from that.
That's that's beyond the business part of it. Okay, needless
to say, well, you've been on this path. The whole
business has changed, certainly the business element, but also the
music element. Certainly you were there at the right time

(01:24:44):
when jam band scene was very big early to mid nineties.
There's certainly a scene at this point in time, but
it is not the dominant popular music. You're essentially a
rock artist. How do you feel about being rock artist
in a world where all the hype and a great

(01:25:04):
certainly percentage of the recording revenue goes to pop and
hip hop. Well, you know, I have to look at
it in a similar way to the way jazz artists
have looked at their entire lives. You do what you
do because you love it, and if there are times
when it's in vogue, then that's great. And I've had

(01:25:25):
more of those times than I could hope for. Um,
But I've never felt like I could change what it
is that I love because I feel like it's not
mainstream or not enough people would support it, you know. Um,
I remember maybe it was went and Marsava. Somebody said

(01:25:50):
about Jazz that they asked him a similar question and
he said, well, you have to realize that what we're
doing is filet mean on a lot of people would
prefer to eat to McDonald's. That's pretty definitive. Uh. The
other thing, of course it's been changed, is that you say,

(01:26:11):
you know the al the tour used to be the
advertisement for the album. Now the albums the advertisement for
the tour. How is the shift to touring? Let me
put it in a different way. If you had to choose,
or maybe with percentage, are you more about the live
experience or more about the studio writing experience? Well, I
can answer both of those. Um, if I had to choose,

(01:26:34):
the live experience is more gratifying, you know because for me, uh, improvisation,
which is just momentary composition, that's my most favorite thing
as a musician. As a songwriter, it's a little different.
As a singer, it's a little different, but performing is
still always gonna win out for me. Um. The business

(01:26:58):
part of it, you know, we were always one of
those bands and the Allman Brothers, Government Mule, all the
bands in that sort of scene. We're always one of
those bands that touring generated the better income. So when
that changed, it wasn't a huge change for us like

(01:27:19):
it was for bands that were selling millions and millions
of records. Um, so we were maybe ahead of it
a little bit because that's what we had always done.
It is a little tough when they start taking a
zero away from all the budgets. And you know, it
used to be if a band sold a million records,

(01:27:40):
well now they're selling a hundred thousand. If they sold
that a hundred thousand, and now they're selling ten thousand,
so you know, and budgets are corresponding with that. You know. Uh.
In the in the seventies, bands were making records, spending
like half a million dollars on a record, and then
you fast forward to now and you gotta make a

(01:28:00):
record for twenty grand. Uh. It's it's challenging, and it
means we're never gonna get Dark Side of the Moon
or Stillly dan Asia or Fleetwood Mac rumors. We're never
gonna get those records ever again unless something changes in
a way that would allow that to present itself, you know,
because bands don't have the opportunity, artists don't have the opportunity.

(01:28:23):
Even if you have a home studio. A, it's not
gonna be as good as the studios those records were
made in. And B. You don't have a year and
a half to make a record uh or six months
or whatever. You know, some of those records took um.
I love making records, but playing live is is definitely Uh, well,

(01:28:44):
it's more fun because making records is tedious. Making records
you is not. It's not so much the creative side
of your brain at work all the time you're you're
it's more work and less play. You know, when you're performing,
the ultimate thing you can do is to shut your
brain off and go on autopilot where you're not thinking

(01:29:04):
at all. And that's something that you try to do
in the studio, but it's not as achievable. So what
is your favorite Allman Brothers song to play? Uh? Maybe Dreams.
I really loved playing Dreams. Uh. A whip and post
is great because you can take it anywhere you want

(01:29:27):
to go. You know, sometimes we would stop in the
middle and go off to a unchartered territory and nobody
would even know how it was going to come back.
And the same with songs like in Memory of Elizabeth Reid.
But there's so many great songs in the catalog. Just
playing the song itself sometimes is a joyous feeling as well,

(01:29:47):
you know. Um, But I love the ones that we
can reinterpret on a given nine. So you know, you
do a great version of Don Henley's Wasted Time. Are
you someone who's very broad in your musical knowledge and
musical taste? Uh? Because many people would pooh pooh that

(01:30:08):
music relative to the Almond Brothers music. Uh. Yeah, My
taste runs extremely wide. I love so many types of music,
and I try not to be um, try not to
be a snob about the actual music that I like

(01:30:28):
on a song by song basis I can be a
snob about Uh. Let's say it differently. I want to
open myself to every genre and whatever the best is
in that genre, I'm open to. Um. And for the
most parts, I think that's that's true. You have to
take it. Uh. If I hear music, either I get

(01:30:52):
or you don't like it, you know. And I'm definitely
not the dude from Big Lebowski that I hate the
fucking Eagles Man that I'm not that, although I love
the dude. Uh. And I know it's it's not uh,
maybe it's not hip to say this, but nobody can

(01:31:16):
deny a lot of the great songs that those guys
are unbelievable. I'm a huge fan and I and and
the poppy stuff is is incredible on its own merit.
But then when you talk about songs like Wasted Time
that wasn't written to be a pop song, it's just
a great, well crafted song you can go on with

(01:31:37):
your life, baby that I can go on with mine.
Just for the first time, I heard that lyric whole
and the other day I've thought about which I think
I did solo acoustic once or twice? Uh, the song uh,
the Last Resort, that's not meant to be a pop song.
It's just a beautiful song, and nobody can deny that.

(01:31:57):
To what to greedy to keep up on new music?
I wish it was more And I'm sure some of
it's my fault, but I blame a lot of it
on the new music itself because it's really hard for
me to connect to most of it. When I hear
something that I like, I'm really grateful and and and
uh and and I'll open to it, but a lot
of it I think is just aspiring to the lowest

(01:32:21):
common denominator, lowering the bar. Uh. People are selling out
at every turn. The thought process from the very beginning
is what can I do to get more likes or
make more money, or get more attention, or sell more
records or more streaming or more downloading or whatever. It
should start with the music and all that should be secondary,

(01:32:42):
you know. And and Uh, when you start compromising your
music before you even make it, I think you're looking
at it backwards. There are things. How did the fifty
at the anniversary Almond Brothers gig come together got a
rousing reception? Is that a one off? Do you think
there'll be anything like that in the future. It came

(01:33:03):
together because Jmo called all of us and said, we
need to do a fiftieth anniversary show, and it it
was the opportunity to do that show at Madison's Corpy
Garden that we never did that We had talked about
being the final show before. Uh. It's always been our

(01:33:25):
intent for it to be a one off and and
not not do it again. The odd thing is, after
all this coronavirus and the new norm, I don't know
a if it would even be possible to do it
on the other side and be would we look at

(01:33:46):
it differently, more favorably, less favorably. I don't. I don't
really know, but our intent was always too for that
to be the finality and be done with it. Well,
this has been wonderful Warren. We look forward to you
being back on the boards and certainly your new recordings.
Thanks so much for doing this my pleasure. Nice talking

(01:34:09):
to you until next time. This is Bob left sus