AMY: Criticism (Part 1 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good. All right, break it down.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
and Cat gotcha, Covin locking no brother, the lady's folks,
do you just.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
Follow Anna spirit where it's all.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
The front and real stuff, to the chill stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
And to him.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
But Swayne, sometimes the best thing you can do it
jes style to feel things. This is feeling things.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
With Amy and Cat. Happy Thursday, feeling things. I'm Amy,
then I'm Cat. And today's the day. We're finally here.
We're starting our four part series on the four Horsemen
from John gottm And what's crazy to me is when
he was doing this research, you were telling me he
could tell with ninety percent accuracy if a couple was

(00:48):
going to succeed or fail based on their communication styles.
And we're going to dive into the first horseman, which
is criticism, which is a communication style. And well it's
like we'll call it a little deep dive. And two,
this is a four part series. Our first deep dive
was dedicated to Mel Robbins let them. So this is

(01:11):
not so much a person, it's a thing. Yeah, So
this is our deep dives are not always going to
be people.

Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
And this is hopefully helpful to people that they can
either recognize this in somebody else and say like, oh,
I don't like that, or they can recognize this in
themselves and say, oh, I don't like that about me.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
I want to work to change that.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
When I was reading over some of the I keep
picturing like a critical person riding a horse, maybe because
it's horsemen, but I was like, oh, I've dabbled on
that horse before. I know for sure I have behaved
this way in my seventeen year marriage. I think as
a parent, I've even used the word you always do this,

(01:51):
which I know that my child isn't always doing that,
and so I recognize myself in this. But thankfully, like
my entire personality, I'm not like riding that horse every day.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
Just sometimes you accidentally get on it and then you're like,
oh yeah, I'm like I don't want me here.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah yeah. But before we get into criticism, let's do
our feeling of the day, which is from Kat. And
I'm eager to know what's going on because all you
told me was that you had a story, and I
know that you're feeling a particular way, but I have
no idea why.

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, I'm like chomping at the bit to talk about this.
This happened a couple days ago. This is a follow
up to something that I talked about on the Fifth
Thing years ago.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, I think I also knew it was a follow up,
but I was thinking like a follow up from a
couple of months ago. So you're talking like.

Speaker 3 (02:40):
Way that twenty twenty three.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Probably okay, So shout out to loyal listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Because they probably some of them are going to remember,
like I remember when she said that, and they probably
were shocked. I'm feeling let's start with my feelings and
feeling angry and feeling resentful. I'm feeling a little bit
of I keep wanting to call it shame, but I
think it's more like I have angered towards something else,
and I also have a little bit of anger and
disappointment towards myself. I don't have to figure out what

(03:09):
I need yet, but right now what I want is revenge,
and I know that's probably not one I don't know
how I would get revenge into, Like, once I process this,
it's probably not going to be what I actually need.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
So, which is so mature review because sometimes we can
be so reactionary, and you may go for that revenge
right away without processing and thinking it through.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
And so oh, I told my husband, good job, thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I told my husband, I'm gonna find a way to
write an anonymous Google review because there's nothing I want
more than to like take this person's rating down.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
And then I thought about it and I said, that's
not who I want to be. So I didn't do it.
But it's okay that I had that urge. I just
didn't act on it.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
For anybody that has had like an urge that doesn't
align with who they actually are. Also interesting, I'm not
going to name names here, but this person I did
look at their Google reviews and they have only five
star reviews, and I think that that's a hoax. Like
there has to be something they're doing today, Like.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
They did anonymous emails to write good positive Google.

Speaker 3 (04:09):
Now I think they've found a way to delete.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
There's no way that nobody has given them anything other
than a five star review. Even the best of places
have somebody that gave them a four. Anyway, I would
give them zero, because well, no, they were good things
about them anyway. Years ago, do you remember me telling
you about me going to the dentist. Yes, I did
not go to the dentist for a couple of years because.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Well, okay, I can say what I remember about it,
and it's that he told you you had eleven cavities, yeah,
at one time.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
And I'd never had a cavity before in your life,
in my life. And I was thirty three at the
time maybe, so now I hadn't been to the dentist
in like three or four years, so I went in
there being like one one of the reasons it took
me so long to go is because after I missed
one appointment, I know, I kept feeling more and more
a shame about like I've been to the dentists in
so long, and you know, the thing that we want

(05:03):
to do when we have anxiety is avoid and the
thing that makes anxiety worse is avoiding.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
So I was in that paradox.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Do you floss every day?

Speaker 3 (05:11):
We'll get to it.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Well, I guess I'm just curious because that's when I
get I guess I feel shame about going or I
feel like I'm gonna get called out because I try
to floss a lot. But I know that with a
deep cleaning at the dentist. It just gets plaque in
certain areas that I can't get and I know they're
gonna have to clean in a certain way. My gums
are gonna bleed and then they're gonna think I don't
take care of myself and I because I haven't been

(05:34):
in a little bit and I know I need to go.
And also I haven't been flossing as regularly as I like,
so I know in order to prep for my appointment,
I need to start flossing so that I can go
and not feel embarrassed and feel shame like oh, because
you know, they know right away and they're like, if
you you've been flossing a lot, and I'm like, oh yeah,
And you know, the minute they take that first little
piece of loss in there, they can see how your
gums are reacting and they're like, liar, Well, I.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Definitely f lost more leading up to my most recent
appointment than I usually do. But I floss at least
once a week, which is like, I think you're supposed
to do it every day.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I knew, okay, but once a week, no judgment.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah, sorry, sorry. I was shocked by that though.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, because after this experience, you would think that I
would be flossing every day, right, But I also okay.
So I went to the dentist, to this person I
hadn't been in a while. I knew that I probably
would have something because I hadn't been in a while,
but I was not expecting them to tell me I had.

Speaker 3 (06:26):
Eleven cavities after never having a cavity.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
And every time I went to the dentist before that,
they'd be like, you have the best home care. Your
teeth are beautiful. So I'm like, wow, I thought I
had good home care. So when I'm not doing it
and I never had any pain in my teeth, nothing,
So they say eleven cavities, I'm like, okay, well I
guess I'll get them filled. And they had to do
it in three different appointments. I went to the first two,

(06:51):
whatever went to the third one, and they were like, ma'am,
your insurance isn't pain for these fillings, so we can't
do the live last three, but no big deal. Just
call your insurance, see what the problem is, and then
we'll schedule again. Schedule you again, and I said okay. Honestly,
thank God, I didn't want to get through more feelings today.
I call my insurance. I had signed up for pediatric

(07:16):
dental insurance, meaning for a children, right.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
Whoop.

Speaker 3 (07:21):
See yeah, so my dad also they shouldn't have let
me do that.

Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
No, I'm like shocked that. They're like they know your age, right,
you have to give your birthday, yes, and they're like okay,
They're probably like this is above my pay grade. I
don't get paid enough to deal with this person's stupid
my money.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, that dress was wild and also added to the
like I don't understand how insurance works and I'm confused,
so it just like made it and you can't I'm like,
I can't trust the people to say this is not
the plan for you anyway. So they were like, we
didn't pay for your feelings because we only cover feelings
for people under eighteen. It was thirty three, so I

(08:01):
didn't go back because I didn't have entrance at that time.
So I was gonna wait till I got married and
then got Patrick's insurance whatever. Well, then I started, I
think as more time went by, I started being like,
I don't think I had eleven cavities. One of my
best friend's dad is a dentist, and she was like
I bet they weren't. Like she said, I should have
gotten a second opinion, but that felt like a lot
because the last thing you want to do is you

(08:23):
go to get a second opinion and they're like, oh no,
you don't have eleven cavities, you have twelve.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
Oh but well okay, So but did the friend's dad
that's a dentist. Was he saying that, because like, is
this a thing that some dentists do. It's a scam?

Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yes, And my mom said she was like, well, that's
why we went to the dentist that we went to
growing up, because it was like growing up, the dentists
we went to was like kind of in like a
double wide. It wasn't like the nicest boys. Okay, and
it was in Franklin, but it was like.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
They didn't have any certificates or anything, no degree.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
They were very nice. They were very nice, very nice.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
But she was like the reason we went there as
we went to a different dentist and they said that
you guys had all of these issues, So I went
and got a second opinion at this more like down
to earth. I would call them place and she was like,
and they said, you guys didn't need any of this.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
And so the dentist that I.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Said that said I had eleven cavities is probably the
boogiest dentist I'd ever been to.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
It was very fancy.

Speaker 1 (09:23):
So they have bills to pay.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
They had bills to pay. M hm, So so racket. Yes.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
So then my friend's dad's she said, if you get
your X rays, I'll show them to my dad and
he can let you know.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
But like again, it felt like a lot. I just
was avoiding it.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
And then Patrick has never had a cavity, and so
I was like, well, I'm gonna go to your dentist
and see what they say. So I had to wait
to get on this insurance, and then it took almost
a year to get a new patient appointment with them.
So I've been waiting to get to that. I think
I made that appointment last November, and it was in September,
a week ago. So I go, and I'm really nervous

(10:03):
because I'm like, shoot, like what if I have five
cavities now? Or what if now I need a root
canal because I didn't get those fillings. And I go
and it's a very It's in an office building, not
a double wide, but it was a very down to
earth place.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
So I was like, I think I'm gonna like it.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's sort of rundown and falling apart. It's part.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
It was like in the Green Hills.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
It was like in a nice which of the other
place is in a nice area too. Anyway, I go
the hygienesis like, your teeth are beautiful?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Da da da do you flyss?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
I was like once a week and she kind of
slapped me on the wrist and she's like, you know,
you're supposed to floss every day.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
And I was like, once a week is doing a.

Speaker 1 (10:43):
Lot for me.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
But she said, you probably have the genes to not
get gum diusies or whatever. And she's like, some people
have the genes not to get cavities. And I was like, well,
I don't have those genes.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
You're like, I have the Helen Keller gene.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Did you tell her that?

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Said? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
She talked to me the whole time and I couldn't
talk back, and it was a very interesting experience. Anyway,
the dentist comes, she comes over and she's like, I've
looked at your X rays, your pictures, whatever. She's like,
your teeth look beautiful, nothing like to be concerned with
Do you have any questions for me? And I just
looked at her with my mouth agape.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Your mouth agape like open. She was like yes, and
I was like, so okay. I didn't want to bring
this up, but I left that you used that word
a gate. I've tried to better my vocabulary. I can
tell I love it. I said, okay.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Last, the reason I wanted to come here is because
I had a bad experience the last dentist I was
at where he said I had eleven cavities and I said,
I only got eight of them filled?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
So do you mean that I give only as I
Basically we were like, she use.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
The word only, I only got three of them filled.
You're like, I only got ten and a half of
them done.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Thank god. She's like, okay, well, let me look at
the pictures again.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
And she was like, where were they And I said, well,
wherever there isn't a filling, that's where they were, because
the rest of my mouth is filled. And she was like, oh,
I see, and she was like, oh, this is not
of concern, and she said, we really look at this
as a baseline when you come back next year, when
we do pictures again. If there's a change, that still
doesn't mean that you need a filling. At that point,

(12:43):
we might just be more aggressive with whatever cleanings we do.
But she said, this also can go away with good
cleanings and flossing. You don't She was like, she said,
maybe I'm more conservative than other people, but there's no
need for a filling. And I said, well, I wish
I would have come back here three years ago, Like
can you believe it?

Speaker 1 (13:03):
I mean, yeah, but yeah, that's sad, but sure it's
gonna put me on guard for like, when I'm in appointments,
I just trust what they're telling me because they're the experts. Yeah,
so I think my takeaways are I can't just trust
what they're telling me, especially if they have really nice furniture.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
A hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah, if there's a fancy TV at every single chair,
they gotta pay.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
This is the other thing too.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
I had to pay for those feelings out of pocket
because then my insurance was not which I also was like,
this is y'all's fault. Y'all ran my insurance before I
got these. You gave me an estimate of what I
would pay. I paid that, and then you're asking me
for more money because you didn't do due diligence of
making sure that didn't have pediatric dental.

Speaker 1 (13:45):
Sure. Wait, so can you get representation? And do you
mean to go to people's court honestly or judge judy
or like what like? Because I think that.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
Don't you think I was taking advantage of you?

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Absolutely were taking advantage of, especially if you didn't have
a love and cavities and then you were paying out
of pocket. Yeah, that part, I don't know. That's tragic
with your insurance company, but they ran my pediatric insurance, right,
I know. The whole thing is just a perfect storm
for a lot of money taken from you and time.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
And because I don't understand this is where I think
that Also I'm disappointed myself that I get overwhelmed.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
By things that I don't understand.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Instead of trying to understand things and educate myself, I
just throw my hands up. So I just I did
like whittle them down to pay less than what they
were originally get trying to get me to pay. But
this was also like right around my wedding too, so
I was like overwhelmed with stuff and I just wanted
them to stop calling me asking me for money, so
I just ended up at the end of the day

(14:42):
paying it to be done with it.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
But yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
I'm angry and resentful because I'm like, you guys took
advantage of a young girl that you knew that I
didn't really know what I was talking about. And also
because I hadn't been to the dentist in that many years,
you knew that you could probably convince me that I
need did these things.

Speaker 1 (15:01):
I feel like you need to walk back in there
with your current dentist information, like get it in writing
that you don't have cavities and this is not a concern,
and sort of like, I know you've never seen pretty woman,
but she gets treated poorly at a store when she's shopping,
and then she gets her glow up and she goes
and spends a bunch of money because she went in
there because she had cash to spend from Richard Gere.

(15:25):
And then she goes gets all dressed up, she looks
really nice, walks in with all these bags, and the
people working are like, oh, she's about to spend some money,
let's be nice to her. Treat her completely different than
the first time she came in, and she's like big
mistake huge. I have to go shopping now, and she leaves.
She's like, remember me. I feel like you should walk
in there and be like, hey, remember me, I have

(15:48):
no cavities.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I mean, I have the big mistake.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
It's like I have to go to another Dennis now
less bougie.

Speaker 2 (15:56):
But but you felt safer at the less bougie one
because I was like, the people feel down to earth, Like, yes,
people feel like it's.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Probably comfort from back in the day when you're in
the double wi.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
But also they felt more like you know, sometimes, and
I don't even think that people do this on purpose,
but sometimes when you can feel less than somebody who
has a big degree or knows about something you don't
know about, and so you just I don't know. I
do that when I'm in spaces where I don't understand
things and people seem smarter than me. But in this experience,

(16:28):
I felt like I was on the same level as
the dentist, even though she knew way more about my
teeth than me. I also learned something. But I know
why I have a little bit of a lisp. Okay,
why I have a tongue thrust. Oh that sounds dirty,
because I want to get tongue thrust. So I want

(16:50):
to get in visiline. To have a little gap in
my two front teeth, and I wanted to close it,
and she said, before you can do that, and what.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, I like your lisp like, I don't want you
to chick like I open.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
The gap keeps getting bigger.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
So if I don't ever get it fixed, then the
gap is going to continue to grow. Okay, that's the problem.
And so and she said, there's other things that it does.
And my teeth don't touch, Like I can't bite a
sandwich and pull it away.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
My teeth don't come.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Together, So how do you eat a sandwich?

Speaker 3 (17:21):
I have to use my tongue to like.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
It.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
So she said, if I just get in Visiline, I'll
be able to like fix my gap. But as soon
as I stop wearing it, the gap will come back.
Because my tongue. Normal people's tongue sits at the roof
of their mouth, Mine sits the front of my pushes
my teeth out, like when I swallow, it pushes my
teeth out. And she said, your tongue is a very
strong muscle and.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
It wins every time.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
Wow, So I have to do tongue exercises, like, give
me an example of one.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
She said, to get a thing of tick tacks and
take a tick tack and hold it on the roof
of my mouth until it dissolves, just to get my
tongue to start to remember.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
To Do we have any idea of how long that takes?

Speaker 4 (18:03):
Well?

Speaker 2 (18:03):
I looked at her eyes head. That seems like that
would take a long time. She said, well, that's just it.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Is what it is.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, I bet you could do it while you're driving
or something.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
And she said, pick like a object, like a doorknob
or something like that, and every time you see that doorknob,
ask yourself, where's my tongue sitting?

Speaker 3 (18:20):
And like reposition your tongue.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
Oh, like you have like promps around your house?

Speaker 3 (18:23):
Yes, to like doorknob tongue. Where are you?

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Where's my tongue? Yeah, my tongue thrust?

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Do you say thrust? Thus thrust?

Speaker 1 (18:34):
I don't want you to figure, I don't want you
to fix your tongue drust, but I get it. I
think your list is so cute. Oh, thank you, it's subtle. Thanks,
And I like your little gap in your teeth, But
I mean, I get it.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
If it would just stay where it is, that's fine,
but in the last year or two it is growing
and growing and growing.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, so like one day.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
I get it. I mean, you probably wouldn't to be
able to bite down on a sandwich awesome and not
have to use your tongue to wiggle it. Well, you
know something that you are an expert, and I know
you felt like less than at the dentist, well the
bougie one. But I'm thinking about how you, as a
therapist are very wise in your field. And I bet
your clients come into your space and feel welcome. I

(19:26):
bet your clients come into your space and feel welcome
and not less them and safe, less than and safe,
And I feel like you do a really good job
at that. And I'm excited for you to kind of
do that with us as we kick off criticism, because
you definitely know about it way more than I do.
So I'm ready to learn and talk about it with

(19:46):
you and I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Be full transition.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Oh thanks, yeah, thanks job.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
Okay, I don't say it like that, I know, I
don't know why.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
I just did that to be like lightened, like in
the move a little bit well fun. I know you don't,
but it's so cute, but I get wanting to fix it.
It's fine, but I still I'll go back to you
with the dentists. I'll go to the bougie dentist with
you and be like yeah, I'll be like remember her
big mistake. Cute, and then we just walk out and

(20:15):
they're like, we have to go shopping now, and they're
like well, and we're like, well, it makes sense to us,
your losers. But I do think like you should be
able to try to get that money back, Like I'm
angry for you in that, like there needs to be
justice here, and I wonder how many other people they've bamboozled.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, I think that because I'm trying to also think
back to like what do I need. I think what
I need is just to like one be able to
vent about it, and then I want to like save
somebody else from that happening to them, because I wish
I could go back and have just gone a second
opinion and then been like I'm not I'm never going
back to you. But I hate the feeling of being
taken advantage of, and know what the other feeling you

(20:53):
know that I hate is wasting money.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
Oh, yeah, because you.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Know, I love a deal and I just think about
what could I have done with that those thousands of
dollars that I spent there.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Well, if she wanted to criticize that dentist, I am
all for it.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
But I would rather complain about the dentist exactly.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
And that's what we're gonna get into, because there is
a difference in sharing a complaint and then criticizing. So
let's hop on that horse's hop.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
On the complaint horse. Okay, that's right.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
So we're going to talk about the four horsemen, not
the four horsemen of history, but the four horsemen that
doctor John Gotman created. And he created this out of
all of his research he did around eleven relationships where
he is like a I would say, world renowned expert
in this field. Like if you want to be a
couple's therapist, a lot of the times you will be

(21:46):
trained by the Gotman Institute. And I will say I
wouldn't call myself an expert in relationships in couples therapy.

Speaker 3 (21:53):
I don't do couples therapy.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
The only time I'll see couples is if like a
client wants to bring their partner in for a session.
So thank you for saying that I met really smart and.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
We are and certainer and you've been preparing for this.
And also I did couples therapy for some died. No,
I'm not at all, but I was just kind of
making your joke of like, does that somewhat make.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Me a little bit qualified to.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Talk about some things? But then we ended in divorce,
so but I think that's okay, that's the information we
got out of our We did a very intense year
of therapy leading up to that to make that decision,
So it wasn't taken lightly.

Speaker 3 (22:32):
Did they talk about the four horsemen at all?

Speaker 1 (22:34):
We did not.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Okay, So what the four horsemen are is these four
styles of communication that doctor Gotman found that could help
him predict the demise of a relationship. So if you
had these four things and he saw you using these
four things regularly without trying to shift or change with
ninety percent accuracy rate, he could say this couple is

(22:57):
probably not going to make it.

Speaker 3 (22:59):
Which is.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
Wild but also speaks to how important this stuff is
and how detrimental things that sometimes we don't mean them
to be this way. And I will say a lot
of times, specifically what we're going to talk about criticism.
A lot of times we're not meaning to criticize to
ruin a relationship. We're trying to connect with somebody or
meet a need. We just do it in a way

(23:22):
that sets us up to fail. So the four horsemen,
which we're going to split up criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling.
If you're like, what is that, don't worry, stay tuned
in the next four weeks.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
Today we're going to do criticism.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
So do you have anything that you want to say
about criticism before we jump in?

Speaker 1 (23:42):
And I mentioned at the start of the episode, I'm
guilty of it, and I think as I was reading
through it, my heart broke for people that have to
live or living in a household where criticism is showing
up all the time. I just would feel so sad
to have to live that way. And I know again,

(24:04):
I did it. I had it in my marriage. We
had it on both sides. Now it wasn't all the time,
but I wish maybe we had had certain tools or
awareness to know like, oh, this is exactly what's happening.
And so my hope is in talking about this that
if anybody sees this in themselves or recognizes like, oh shoot,
my partner is this way and I'm exhausted from it,

(24:27):
that there is hope for that awareness and then you
can work on it, because I think, well, there's a
lot of tools that I learned later that I think
could have helped our relationship. And I think while he
was able to assess like with ninety percent accuracy, I
don't think that he's saying that that means that this

(24:48):
is going to happen if you have acted this way
or if you act this way, if you have awareness
and are willing to do the work and stop acting
that way and start doing the what'd you call it,
like just the healthier swa there's a sort of of
the antidote, healthier swap antidote, but you can if your
go to is the criticism, then you find a way

(25:09):
to swap it. The antidote of I can still make
this complaint, but from a caring, thoughtful standpoint, that doesn't
it still get my need? Matt doesn't like tear someone down.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah, So the difference you're talking about complaints and critiques
and then criticism. So criticism is really about somebody's character.
When you criticize somebody. You're not talking about a thing
that they did once or a specific behavior. It turns
into like who they are, that.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
You are bad, you are selfish, you are yes and so,
and consider it right.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
So he doctor Gotman also found in his research, which
is crazy, and also like, how do you find all
these statistics and percentages but not our job. The way
a conversation starts, he could predict within ninety six percent
accuracy rate where it would go, if it would end
well or bad, and with in the first three minutes.
If your conversation starts well, then your conflict is probably

(26:05):
going to be managed well. And if it starts off
with one of these things, it's probably going to end
not well because they did build Yeah, unless you're able
to say, oh, I just did that thing. When you
criticize somebody, somebody becomes defensive. So once somebody comes defensive,
then you're just rolling down this four horsemen hill. And

(26:26):
what he talked about a lot, and what any therapist
or any relationship helper of sorts will say, a healthy
relationship is not about getting rid of your conflict. It's
about how to manage it. And a lot of times
the things that couples argue about or have conflict around
are essentially the same thing throughout the relationship. It's going

(26:49):
to be the same theme. Might not be the trash
every time, but it might be a feeling of like
not being heard or something like that. And so it's
not about getting rid of it because we all have
stuff more human it's how do we manage our conflict well?

Speaker 3 (27:03):
And if you can manage your conflict well, then that's great.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
That's better than not having conflict, because if you don't
have conflict, then there obviously is a lack of vulnerability
in the relationship because you don't feel like you can
share things. Yeah, things must be pretty I mean service
and like are you really sharing and saying the things
that are like on your heart and that you need?
So with criticism, I'm saying something negative about your character.

(27:28):
In general, what we want are critiques and complaints. Which
complaints are great. Think about well, this could go two ways,
like a complaint box or a feedback box at a store.
Complaints can help the store become better, right, Like I
don't I worked at limited To as a young girl
and we had a feedback box and they'd be helpful

(27:48):
things like things about how the line worked, or the displays,
or how they would like to be able to order
things a certain way that help you become better as
a store, versus if somebody just wrote like this place.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
Sucks, you never have what we need. I'm like, I
don't really.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
Know what to do with that.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
Should we just close?

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Y'all are idiots? Right?

Speaker 3 (28:09):
It's not overall.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
I mean, maybe this one thing we did very idiotic,
but it doesn't mean we are all idiots. I mean
that's how I keep thinking of it as like these
very definitive statements of you know, you are this thing,
this always happens, you never do this, And it's like,
in reality, is.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
It always happening? Did they never take out the trash never?

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Or can they never do this? Right? I mean, maybe
they never do. And I know I just said trash
because you use that as an example. But you know
something that just popped into my head that I know
you were a part of because I called you. And
maybe you can use this as like a little example
when we're talking. But do you remember when well, in
my current relationship with my boyfriend, he was on his
way over and on his way to my house, he

(28:57):
called an audible and decided he was going back home
for whatever reason that's personal to him and his family.
But I was very hurt by it, and I felt
like my feelings were very valid and I called you
because I was like, I don't know how to handle this.
I don't know what to do because I don't want
to be overreacting, and you validated my feelings and that

(29:19):
I wasn't overreacting, and so I had to call him
and share my complaint. And while he didn't see it
in the time, I think if I was in unhealthier times,
I would have really lost it on him, been like
you always are choosing that over me, and I was

(29:41):
able to express that. More so, I feel like I'm
often second. I tried not to use it in this scenarios.
In this scenario, I had expectations of this, and I
don't know why that is changing, because your situation altered
a little bit and it wasn't anything thing that, in
my opinion, warranted changing our plans, but it hurt me,

(30:05):
and I felt like I needed to communicate that, and
I don't know that he fully got it at the moment.
I think he took time to process. But the cool
thing was I felt heard and that was a really
big step in our relationship. And looking back on it,
I don't think in the moment I appreciated the communication

(30:27):
that we had, but it was such a like A
I can exhale about it now because in my marriage
and I played a part in this too, we didn't.
We didn't handle communication like that, and now as co
parents we do though, so there could have been hope,

(30:47):
who knows, but should Kuda WOULDA We're not there anymore.
But even in our co parenting, like my ex husband
and I like we have our code word. I bet
John Gotman, if you were listening to some of our
conversations when we have to use our coword to just
end a conversation and circle back later, I bet that's
because the first whatever you said thirty seconds or three

(31:08):
minutes or whatever it was, of the conversation like we
were headed down a path of like there was no
saving this conversation. And so I guess if we were
still married, we'd probably sit there and go round and
round and try to figure it out.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
But in our co.

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Parenting, we've just been like pickle pickles our word. If
someone says pickle, we hang up and we circle back
and we're probably because we started, we started unhealthy, but
at least now we have our code word, and.

Speaker 3 (31:33):
Then you can start again.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
Because I think what you're explaining in the conversation with
your boyfriend that you maybe didn't have it as much
in your marriage is maybe something wasn't resolved, but you
felt heard in that feeling of oh this person does this.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
Person does care about me? Like, okay, we because figure
this out.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
His action made me feel like instantly he does not
care about me, right, And I could have stayed with
that story. I guess I'm also just sharing the two
different my marriage and then this again for hope. I
like to be I like to offer hope.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
Okay, now we do have hope at the bottom of this.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Once we talk about what this looks like and we're
gonna you kind of start this offic this is great,
what actually the criticism looks like, then we'll talk about
the antidote and like, That's what I like about John
Gottman is he doesn't just like say like you're doomed.

Speaker 3 (32:25):
He says, these are the things that don't work, but
don't worry. We have something that does. Okay, yeah, we
can swap this out. If you're willing to work on it.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
So, yeah, you started talking about like the all or
nothing talking or the all or nothing thinking and speech,
so let's start with that. So you were talking about
the all or nothing thinking. So exaggerating is a big

(32:56):
way that criticism shows up. You always do this, you
never do this, and with a the dis is just
a really good blanket example to use to describe stuff,
because I think a lot of us have had frustrations
of the dishes or the trash or something like that.
But if I say to my partner, you never put
the dishes away. I always have to do it myself.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
You're so lazy.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Well, if that's not true, they might be like, that's
not true. I did it last week on Thursday, and
like maybe that was the only time he did it
in that year. But he immediately goes to defend his
character and becomes defensive. And then what happens with me
is I can be like, see, you just care about yourself.
All you care about is defending yourself that you're not
even listening to what I'm saying. But the problem is

(33:40):
I'm not actually expressing what I actually want to be expressing.
Because criticism is such a. I don't want to say
low steaks because it is high stakes, but it's a
way for me to express my needs with armor on,
so I'm not really expressing my needs. My needs might
be like, Hey, I am exhausted and I feel like
I've had a really long week and I need some

(34:01):
help with the dishes.

Speaker 3 (34:02):
Could you help put them away?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
I know I usually do them, and that's like maybe
that's even our deal that I put the dishes away,
or it's like an unspoken thing.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
I really need help tonight. Can you help me?

Speaker 2 (34:12):
I'm sure if you're in a loving relationship, your partner
will be like, oh my gosh, you know what.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
I don't want to do the dishes either.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
They might say that in their head, but I would
love to do that for you if that's going to
help your day be better versus me attacking them. What
do you know?

Speaker 1 (34:27):
Selena Gomez is what's his name? Her fiancee Anny Anny Blanco.
Sorry I'm not derailing totally, but.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
A little bit.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Did you know? He said he wakes up every day
and ask himself, what can I do to make Selena's
day better? Well?

Speaker 3 (34:47):
Does he do that?

Speaker 1 (34:50):
That's what he said. He's like I know, I was like, wow,
what's that? Like, how do you imagine? What?

Speaker 2 (34:56):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (34:57):
I don't know. He seems like he love her. He
does love her. Yeah, I know that was a drail,
but I was like, really, do you really do that?
And then he gifts her things like gas bathtubs full
of keeso?

Speaker 3 (35:09):
Wait what Yeah?

Speaker 1 (35:11):
You didn't know that he filled up a bathtub full
of keso for her?

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, in their house, that's disgusting, I know, but they have.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
A lot of money, so I don't really know how
they put maybe new bathtub or they like just suck
it out with some special equipment, Like I don't know,
because you can't just like put that down the drain.
But anyway, let's just I know I brought that up.
But I'm like, most of us are not in a
relationship where we wake up and we're like, what can

(35:40):
I do to just make my person's day better? But
I think it's okay for us to maybe have that
as underlying of like, I'm in this partnership. I love
this person, So if I have an opportunity to help
make their day better, well, gosh darn it, I would
want to do that.

Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, and you saying that if there's something I can
do that I'm unaware of, like I want my partner
to tell me. It might not be the top of mine.
I might not be thinking like Benny is like what
can I do all the time? But if there's something
that I'm either hurting or if there's something small like
that I could do, I would love my partner to
tell me. But they have to tell me in a

(36:17):
carrying way versus insult me as they're telling it to me,
because then I'm not gonna want to do it, Okay,
So exaggerating it sounds like exaggerating it also sounds like
why questions. So if I'm like, why do you always
hang your clothes like that in your closet? Why do
you always put your dirty laundry on the floor? Why
do you pull your car into the garage like that? Like,

(36:39):
which is just random things, but that is then asking
somebody to defend themselves, So we immediately also go into defensiveness.
And that's something that why why is hard because as
therapists were trained to not use that word very often
because it does put somebody on the defense immediately. We

(37:00):
have to be creative around like, Okay, if I am
curious about that. I do want to know what's another
way I can say that? So I'll say a lot
I'm curious about this, or I wonder about this, or
I've been wondering about this, and you see how like
I've been wondering why, Well, now I'm wondering why. I've
been wondering about the way that you hang your clothes.

(37:21):
It's a little different than mine. That's very different than
like why do you hang your clothes like that?

Speaker 1 (37:26):
Yeah? Or if it's more of a behavior that's not
like a household chore. I'm trying to think of, like
what's popping into my mind of if your partner's snippy
or something like instead of saying why do you have
this attitude? Or why are you snippy? Or could you
say it like this, like what has gone on today
that might have you on edge? Is that? Okay? Is

(37:47):
that bad? Because then they have to answer you nothing.
I didn't know it was on edge, So I guess
maybe that's not You.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Can use this antidote that we're going to talk about, Okay, Yeah,
I'm giving like little examples of this, but I think
that example hold on to it because there's a way
that we can use what I'm going to share later
to form a really good statement.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Okay, because I really was I'm trying to ask it
with like, you know, curiosity. I didn't care, but once
I came out of my mouth, I was like, oh,
I don't know that that sounds good.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
And I think that's the difficult part of this is
a way to retrain how we communicate with each other.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Yea.

Speaker 2 (38:21):
So if you're a media responses and I'm saying all
of this, I could use examples of just me doing
this because I fall into this sometimes. So even as
somebody who knows about this and works with this and
reads about this for fun, like I still.

Speaker 3 (38:37):
Can sometimes be like, oh, that wasn't not the best way.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
To say that.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
And I'll say that to specifically my husband when I
say something and I'm like, that's not how I meant it.
Can I restart and that's okay to be able to like,
we're gonna rewind, that's not how I meant that to
come out.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
It's sort of like you have to ask a jury
to forget something, you know, like in a trial or case.
I don't know, I don't know the legal jargon.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
They're like injection and then they're like yeah, or sustained.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Jury act like you never heard that. And I'm like
sitting there and I'm like, if I was a juror
and all of a sudden, I have this information that
probably is true, but it's not admissible in court for
some yea' know if that's what you would say. But
you know what I mean, like suddenly you have to
strike that from the record, but you already know it.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
How do you know it?

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:23):
It's hard.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
Similar in a relationship, it's like will you wait? You
just said that, and now I'm supposed to just act
like you didn't.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
But anyway, that's where.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
The work comes in. I've been watching The Better Sister.
Did you watch that?

Speaker 1 (39:34):
Oh yeah, with Jessica Biell.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
Did you like it?

Speaker 2 (39:37):
Oh yeah, Okay, you don't like it, we'll talk about it,
maybe offline because I don't want to spoil anything. But
could have been half as long, too many storylines going on.
But the court made me think about that because they
did a lot of objection. Okay, so we have exaggerating,
we have why questions. It also sounds like making a joke.
So this is like passive aggressiveness where if somebody does something,

(40:00):
I mean, I have another household chore example in my head.
Maybe it's because like I don't like doing household chores
myself that I have all these examples. But if one
time I asked Patrick to vacuum the stairs, I hate
vacuuming the stairs, and he didn't, I think because a
vacuum died because we have one of the cordless vacuum
so you can't use it when it's plugged. Him and
then he had to go do something and then I

(40:21):
ended up doing it and I was a little perturbed
about it. So when he came back, are you flying
because I used a big word perturb Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
Yeah, my mouth was a gig.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
So Patrick came back and I made some passive aggressive
joke like you got out of your chores again today
or something like that, and he was like, I plugged it,
and I was gonna do it when I got home.
And then I was like, don't worry, already did it.
And I was upset, but I was playing it off
like a Haha, you got out of your chores and
I didn't get what I needed. And then he was
like upset too because he was like I wanted to

(40:56):
do that. So rather than making a joke, I could
have been like, hey, I vacuum the stairs while you
were gone because I just wanted it done. Next time
that happens in the vacuum dies, maybe we could sweep them. Wow,
sweep them? Do they have carpet their heart? They Well,
now I'd have carpets stairs, but I had hardwood force.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
Sitting there watching Patrick, like, sweep the carpet. Little piece
of dust here?

Speaker 3 (41:27):
The next time, carpet because like, I don't understand how
that would work.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, next time, can you get on your hands and
knees and pick up the dart with your fingers?

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Please?

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Thanks? Well, I guess in his case, had you had
the full story, it totally would have made sense.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
But you did have the whole story. I just still
was annoyed.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
Oh but I think as we talk about the antidote,
like I didn't express my feelings, and so when I
even just like the story I told about the dentist, like,
I become resentful about my anger when I'm not able
to like share my anger. So I was holding in
my anger because I didn't want to be vulnerable with him,
and then I became resentful versus like, hey, I'm felt

(42:07):
angry when you left to go do that thing and
I was here still cleaning, and you left and we
were having fun. He went to do a fun thing
and then I was still And it's not like he
just was like, I'm not doing this anymore.

Speaker 3 (42:18):
This is pre planned.

Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yeah, well now he knows too that sweeping is an option.
I can't see a guy if a guy's like, she
told me to vacuum, right, and the vacuum's dead, like
very long. I'm not going to plump all men into it. Yes,
we're not going to do that. But most people, or
I'm thinking even like kids and stuff like, they're gonna think, well,
I need to charge the vacuum. They might not go
next level and be like, oh, well duh, I can

(42:39):
just sweep it. He didn't know what he didn't know,
but now he knows.

Speaker 3 (42:43):
This is no excuse, no excusing. Okay, so that's the
using humor, and then the last.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
One humor sarcas, you're hilarious, So funny, I noticed you
didn't vacuum the stairs, putting good shoke.

Speaker 3 (43:01):
Yeah, so funny.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
I mean, but dealing with the passive aggressiveness is.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
In playing we've all said things that we are at
we're like ha ha ha, but really we're like seething underneath. Okay,
so the last one is should using should, so telling
somebody they should do something or shouldn't do something.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
You should do it this way, you shouldn't do that way.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
You should have swept the stairs.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
Idiot, right, that would be using two it once. Yeah,
you get a two fer.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
But this also the dishwasher is coming to me with this,
which we have a new a different kind of dishwasher
in our new house.

Speaker 3 (43:43):
There's three levels.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
There's like a level for the silverware instead of using it,
put it in the basket, and then another level. So
we're trying to figure out how to organize things, and
I could easily be like Patrick, you shouldn't do it
like that, you should do it this way, and like
that's saying that there is a right way in a
wrong way, and like he's an idiot basically for not
doing it this way, versus saying like, hey, I've learned

(44:06):
that when you put the cups in on this shelf,
it actually cleans them better. When you do this, I've
learned that the water is able to He has this
thing about you put too much stuff at the bottom,
then the water can't get up and clean things.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Does the water only come from the bottom, though I
have no idea.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Well, I always was like, that's an interesting thought because
I've always put the big stuff at the bottom.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, because I think that's where it goes.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
But yes, I have.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
When I moved into this house, that was my first
time having three rows on the tiny tray up top
and you have to line it up.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
It's kind of annoying.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, yeah, I much prefer the best stick it in
a basket. But I feel like I've just always thought
waters like coming from all angles, is it not?

Speaker 3 (44:49):
I have no idea.

Speaker 1 (44:50):
I have. I have a question that I have no
idea either, But you have to put big things on
the bottom, otherwise surely that would be a design flaw.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Well, and then I'm like, well, you anyway, there's no
right or wrong way. There's just so like a way
that I prefer. There's way he prefers. But then if
I'm really trying to like help him, like if if
he didn't know there was a tray at the top
for the silverware, Okay, I learned that there's a tray
up here, and it cleans the silverware better if you
put it in this tray. Do you want me to
help you put the dishes in the dishwasher. That's a
different way than being like, hey, you should do it

(45:20):
this way, or hey, you shouldn't do that. In that school,
they taught us that when you use that word towards yourself,
they would say, stop shooting all over yourself and stop
shooting on.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Your partner, like grad school. Yeah, for therapy, Yes, I was.
At first, I was like, oh over that in like
yeah junior high. Yeah, stop shooting all over yourself and
your people. Yeah, shut it all over him?

Speaker 3 (45:45):
Okay, So no shoulds?

Speaker 1 (45:47):
No?

Speaker 3 (45:47):
Should?

Speaker 1 (45:48):
I need to work on that.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
It's hard and should kids should involve shames. So like
when we're doing it towards ourselves to other people, it
sends us message of like, oh, I'm an idiot, like
I should have known, Like why didn't I know?

Speaker 1 (46:01):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (46:01):
It must be because something negative about me. That's what
it looks like, what it sounds like. That's what we
don't want to do.

Speaker 4 (46:09):
Now to your favorite part, the antidote, the hope. Yeah,
now to your favorite part the antidote.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
So for criticism, it is called the either gentle startup
or soft startup.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
So when I say that, does anything come to mind?
Very gentle instead of like engine, You're just.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
Like being well, I don't know why sound effects come
to my brain first, but that's what you asked me
and I shared honestly.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
Okay, allow me to be vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
You're like, anything come to mind, and I'm just over here.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Like, but that's gonna help people because because.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
You don't want to like start it aggressively and that.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Like sometimes you need those little like earworms to remind you.
Like I still, when I'm in a parking garage, you
know what I start have started saying? What green level two,
Green level two, green green, green level two, that's not parked.

Speaker 1 (47:27):
That's where I'm parked, parked on green level two.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
I got the from you, thank you, because yes, that's
what I have to do.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
To myself for I also forget, and then I also
could take a picture green level two. It's more fun
to sing yourself a song.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
So we're mid noises.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
Yeah, so this it's like, okay, what what was the antidote?

Speaker 1 (47:45):
And somebody might remember m M the antidote start softly? Okay,
so we're starting softly and then.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
What Okay, so with a complaint, it's still going to
probably not feel the coziest because it's not an affirmation, right,
I'm not coming to you as like this is great
news about something. It still might feel a little bit stingy,
and so the soft startup just kind of eases that
discomfort a little bit. So don't immediately just get like

(48:17):
all spiky and defensive. So with this, this was like
I think we've talked about, well, I know we've talked
about a lot of times that script to help express yourself,
like when you blank, I feel this da da da
da dah.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
This is Yeah, I'm pretty sure when I had that
conflict with my boyfriend when he was driving to my
house and then he turned around and did a wanting
to be on our plants, I used our script.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Okay, well this is just like a it's almost the
same thing. It's just like a different version of our script.
But you know what I mean, Well, yeah, it's use
it that we like to use. Yeah, so in this
gentle startup, it is I feel blank when blank happened,
I need blank.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
So it's your feeling what the facts were, and.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Then what you need now what you want to focus
on here is I statements versus like when you did this,
it made me feel like I feel overwhelmed when the
dishes are not done blank blank, Blaine, whatever time, I
need some help putting them away, or I need some
help doing them on Tuesday nights or something like that,

(49:22):
versus when you never help me, I feel pissed off.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
You don't love me.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
You're lazy, yes, when in reality, I mean, who knows
someone actually might be with someone lazy, But let's say
you're not. Maybe they have had a long day, you
know they're not overall lazy.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
Well I'm glad you said that, because when we get
into one of these kind of blow up kind of things,
when there is criticism that turns into like a bigger argument,
bigger conflict. It's usually not about that thing. It's like
the straw that broke the camel's back, and you do
need something. This is a bid for connection. It just

(49:57):
isn't done in a way that doesn't set you up.

Speaker 3 (49:59):
Well. So, yeah, it's probably not that the dishes are
the problem.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
It might be that you've something happened at work, or
something's been building up, or there's been a couple of
things that have stressed you out, and this is just
the straw that broke the camel's back. So it would
suck if this is the thing that ends your day
in disarray, when it could be the thing that like
brings you together and makes you feel cared for and heard.
So I feel blank when blank what I need? I

(50:28):
need this is, yeah, this is what I need, super
simple but sometimes hard to remember. So I'm glad we
have the And then I have just a couple tips
that can help us while we're doing that.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
So one, you might express some gratitude while you're sharing
your complaint, like I loved last week when you blank,
or it was really helpful when I came home and
this happened, or when you said this to me, I
felt really whatever. So so share with somebody. I mean
you maybe even start with that. Share with something that

(51:04):
you really like or appreciate, so they're like, oh, she's
being nice to me or he's being nice to me
before you're just bust in with something negative. Another one,
don't pile them on. This can be a little hard
because when you're worked une Yeah. Well, and because some
of these things might feel really small. I think a

(51:28):
lot of us that are conflict avoidant are like, I
don't want to make this big deal, so I'm just
not gonna say anything. But then they stockpile so when
I finally do share that I'm annoyed about the trash
or I'm annoyed about the way he sent to a text,
or I'm annoyed whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
If they did, I open the floodgates.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
You're like the kool Aid Man busting through the fence.
Do you remember those commercials when you were a kid,
the kool Aid Man.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Yeah, but I just love that. That's where your brain went, Oh.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
You know, he's a big old kool Aid and come
busting through, And like the kool Aid Man, you always
knew when he arrived.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
So I feel like it was a good thing when
he showed up, right because it wasn't like a party,
I guess.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
But I mean he's still broke the fence or the
wall or whatever he was busting. Don't want and like,
you don't know and now surely there's like red Dye
in there. You don't want to be that.

Speaker 3 (52:24):
Yeah Redye. You don't say yeah? Can you say.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Damaging to the body? Can you say carcinogenic.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
Yeah, cancer to the relationship. You don't yes, exactly. Wow, Okay,
So you don't want to do that. You don't want
to be Yeah, want to be a relationship.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
You don't want to be a tumor.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
You don't want to be the kool aid man, even
though you might want to drink kool aid.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
I'm trying to think of that.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Arnold'swarzenegger could about the tumor. It's not the tumor what
he's talking about.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
You've a good Arnold Schwortzenegger.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Oh. Oh, also this way you do groo can No,
I don't think so, but I can do the Russian
from Rocky four. I've never seen any of these he dies,
he dies, or if I die, I'd die the exact quote,
if he dies, he dies. I haven't seen any of
the other ones besides four. It's apparently the best one.

(53:18):
So if you watch any Rocky you see Russian or
Italian Russian. Remember how my sister, my sister and I, Yeah,
we would talk Russian to each other like hell, little sister.
And then one time I got a speeding ticket and
I recorded myself on a cassette tape to my dad.
But I did it in my Russian voice because we
would always say hell, little father. I was too embarrassed

(53:39):
to tell him my conflict. I was avoiding that if
I got into character, I was able to admit my mistake.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
My yeah, it was my my.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
I was hiding behind my little Russian accent and a
cassette tape.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
I didn't even do it, which is humor. Yeah, because
we didn't have voice on us.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
No, maybe we had cell phones, but they were very new,
so I probably was avoiding it. We definitely had cell
phones because I got a cell phone my senior year
of high school, and I was in college when this happened.
And I remember just avoid sure but mailing him a
cassette tape so he had to like find a which
wasn't as hard to find because he probably had one
in his car, and put it in and it was

(54:17):
like me, hello, father, your daughter. And then I blamed
it on him. I said, your daughter seems to have
inherited what you call a led the foot, like implying
I got it from him. And I was like, and
I got the ticket, I got pulled over, and I'm
gonna need a hundred and thy dollars or something and
my insurance is probably gonna go up.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
I'm sorry. Wait, you do sound like grew from the
stir caul me. Oh is that how he got Yeah?

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Okay, well then I guess I can tug you. Wow. Okay.
So if you ever have something really like, say, you
want to confront your partner.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
But that's usual humor, which if it helps, it's not
passive aggressive like I was trying to be.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
But yeah, yeah, like I was, I had and whatever,
like oh I'm bad, like I'm a terrible driver. My
dad's gonna be so mad at me, and maybe this
will make him like, yeah, still like me. Well, not
that he wasn't gonna like me. You know, that was dramatic,
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
It sounds a little too like you're trying to get
out of some trouble.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
I was trying to get all trouble, of course I was.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
So I do say if if it helps you to
bring in some humor to get in the door, but
at some point you're gonna have to drop it.

Speaker 3 (55:26):
So I mean, that's a different example. Hello, lover, why
do you do the dishwasher this way?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Why? Oh sorry, sorry lover, lover. You know, well I
have learned this. If you stack the dishes this way,
it cleaned better. What.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
I also think that you just saying that brings the
levity to things that like feel sometimes.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Have you ever been in one of those moments when
you do see that somebody didn't take the trash out
and you're like, oh, you just do you want to
throw something?

Speaker 3 (56:01):
That humor reminds you that, like it's just the drag.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
I just thought of an example of as a mom
and whimsical, you know, we say bring the whimsy, and
we were talking. We've shared on this before, way back,
probably even on the fifth thing right before feeling things evolved. Well,
I saw someone online when they're peeling their garlic and
they smash it with a knife, but then they take
the little outer layer of the garlic off and now

(56:27):
I just call it a jacket. I know it has
a named the Pep's so bad because that's what, because
that's the whimsy in me, Because now I just say
time to take your coat off, or like if you're
putting the dishes in the sink, time for a bath,
Like where's the whimsy? So the whimsy has helped me
and I had not thought of this until this exact
moment of my son was pouring something out of the

(56:49):
kettle and he poured too quickly and water went everywhere,
which wouldn't be It's not a big of a deal.
It's water.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
I know.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
There is a time in my life. I don't know
what it was, call it my nervous system just whatever
was all amped up. And now I would have been
like what are you doing, or like why did you
do that? Yeah, you know, and he didn't mean to
do it, and maybe this is me admitting, like he'll
I'm a bad parent, need help. But I would have
responded of like, oh, maybe you know, just like it

(57:18):
made him feel bad for doing something he didn't mean
to do. But anyway, would it happened the other day?
I was like, oh, I was like, here's a towel,
and then I looked at the kettle and.

Speaker 5 (57:28):
I spanked it and I go, bad kettle, bad kettle,
you know, a bad bad.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
I was like, why did you do that?

Speaker 1 (57:37):
I didn't do it in Russian, I'm doing it Russian now,
but I was like, bad kettle, why did you do that?
And then Stevenson was like, oh, I think I filled
it up too much. That's why probably and then we
moved on and it was totally like a thing. But
I could have made it because I know that there's
moments where I was behaving that way in my life

(57:58):
as a parent, as a partner, whatever. When it's like
they didn't mean to do it, but I would have
made them feel a certain way for spilling water, and
even myself, like maybe it was me that spilled the water.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
I would have been like, Uh, it's just stupid. Why'd
you do that.

Speaker 1 (58:12):
It's not like I was just doing it to others.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
I was doing it to me.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
But I don't know. That was literally just the other day,
and I never would have thought to share that story
except for now. And I'm like, I think that's because
over the last several months, I've been practicing whimsy and
being whimsical and not being so and seriously so it's.

Speaker 5 (58:32):
Like, next time Patrick doesn't vacuum the stairs, bad boy,
or the vacuum dies, you spake like Patrick's gonna be like.

Speaker 3 (58:48):
The vacuum and you'd be like, you die, He's bad.
You need judge? Does doctor Gotman want to start you
think some of this he can take it free of charge.
Just couldn't say you asked him to add this. Yes,
to add the whimsy into relationships. I think it's helpful

(59:09):
and with.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Criticism if you have a critique, like can you be
not not the joking passive aggressive, but could playful work playful?

Speaker 2 (59:20):
Yeah, there's a difference in using humor that's passive aggressive
and using humor that's playful. Like when I'm like, I
guess you got out of your chores again, ha ha ha,
like making a joke about it that way.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
That's he being so.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
Funny, But it's also me being like resentful and passive
aggressive versus you saying that is bringing playfulness into the
relationship and allow it almost like calms me down.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
Yeah, try to do that to my dentist. Hey bad,
you've been very bad.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
How many people have you swindled out of thousands of
dollars filling their teeth with like a false cavity filling.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
Let's bringing you back to that. It's like they drilled
into my teeth. Yeah, for no reason. Okay, so back
to the yeah, yeah, soft startup the things you remember,
I'm just going to go through them really quickly. Begin
with something positive, express some kind of appreciation or gratitude
to kind of room, room them in, use eye instead
of you, and start with I instead of you. Especially,

(01:00:22):
don't stockpile and be assertive. So I think also you
can be assertive without being aggressive assertive, Like if this
is important to you, allowed to be important to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
You in the stockpiling. This is just throw this in
because we've talked about it on the podcast before, but
whenever Ben and I took the kids to our four
day retreated on site for our co parenting with them,
and we did an intensive our therapists gave us the
three a's and you can do it at the end
of every day, and while we're doing it with the kids,
and we kind of got off of it, but we

(01:00:53):
still bring up. I wouldn't say we're doing it daily anymore,
but we still practice it as a family and it's
been helpful, and I could see how daily it could
be really helpful. But such as life, it's busy, it's
hard to get it ready gathered around. But you get
to have one ask, so that way you're not asking
for like fifty things and it's stockpiling, but you may

(01:01:16):
have to make a list and I don't. I'm asking
your advice on this, Like if you have things that
you know are building up and you want a stockpile,
like can you have a list where like, okay, today
I can bring this up and then maybe later I
can bring this up. Or can you if you have
a stockpiled list, like how do you run through that?
Because for the asks, she said to keep a list,
like if do you have anything that you need? It's

(01:01:38):
like you're asking, like if the kids need something, instead
of being like I need this, this and this, and
it gets overwhelming and then that's not doable. It's like
can I ask you, let me back it up, let
me do me Because this get confusing with what the
kids ask for because they could be asking for things
like I need new underwear or something, and she's saying
that's when you're at like on Tuesday, that's your ass.

(01:02:00):
So on Wednesday you can ask for something else. But like,
as a parent, I might go to my kids and say,
you know, I'm really asking that you make your red
every day or we start to pick up your room.
But it's easy as a parent to pile on and
give your kids a long list of things and then
it's overwhelming and then they can't get that down. So
on Tuesday I know, I get to ask for let's

(01:02:20):
start this with your room, and then the next day
I can ask a different thing and we keep a
list and keep track. So I guess what I'm asking
here is can we keep a list of things we
have that are piled up? Because then how do you
resolve those?

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
So if you don't, ever, I would do that if
I were you and I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by
all of these things, write them out because a lot
of times what you find is that they will be
a theme. So if it is just like household chores,
then like I am going to ask for you to
help me around the house or with your kids, I'm
going to help my ask my kids to help pick
up their things, and then they might say, actually, they

(01:02:57):
might not say, but you might want to give them
this is actually how I would like that to be done.
So being specific can be very helpful. So the big
ask it it's the theme. This is the big ask.
These are the ways that that actually plays out. But
one thing that I've learned with Patrick is that he
and I'm this way too. On the reverse side, we're
both forgetful, and so we have to if I say,

(01:03:20):
like I.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
Need this from him.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
I know that he's gonna need me to remind him
or he needs to write it down and put a
reminder in his phone. So it is helpful to like
write that stuff down. I'm like, hey, on Tuesdays, I
need you to do X y Z. Put that in
your list on your phone of the things that I need.
I think that's okay. There's a difference in like finally
sitting down after weeks of building up resentment and saying

(01:03:43):
you suck at this, you never do this. Da da
da da da da dada dah. And there's a difference
in that in me saying, hey, I've been feeling overwhelmed,
and I'm really saying that I need help around the house,
or I need help with the kids, or I need
to help on Wednesday nights.

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
This is what that help looks like. Then those are
the things that you list.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
So it might be that there's an initial moment where
you share something, but then also a more carved out time.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yeah, and it's the stockpiling is not about like I
asked them to do the dishes, take the trash out,
and mop the floors. That's not stockpiling. The stockpiling is
you're lazy, you never do this, You're always late to this.
It's different things versus that's just one.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Okay, gotcha is that?

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Thank you? Okay, cool over your taking notes.

Speaker 2 (01:04:29):
Yeah, so that's the first horsemen criticism. Very hard word
to spell.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Oh yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
We don't have to do this in a specific order.

Speaker 2 (01:04:41):
So is there one out of contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling
that you really are itching to get at next to
tease people.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
For next week?

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
I mean I think defensive okay, makes sense, and then
we go for the third one, we go the most evil.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Okay, So we're going to defensiveness next week, and then
my personal least favorite is contempt, so we'll do.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
That, which is the evil one. Yeah, and then stonewalling
will be a good one to end on because stone
walling is interesting to me. I was having coffee with
my brother in law this morning and he used that
in a situation he has going on where he felt
stone walled, and I was like, oh, it sucks. I
hate that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:19):
Yeah it does.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
So it's a good one to to wrap with. So
that's the order we'll go in. Hope y'all are enjoying this.
Hope it's helpful and hope that you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
Have the day you need to have. Bye Bye,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}AMY: Criticism (Part 1 of How Relationships Begin to End: The Four Horseman)