July 16, 2025 • 56 mins
Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel discuss the culture of swapping jerseys after a game and how Matt missed out on most of it. Watching The Quarterback Netflix series, Matt reflects on the insight from the show and how it compares to his own experiences.
NY Times Best Selling Author Jeff Pearlman begins with covering Barry Bonds and how great of a baseball player he was. Was Bonds' demeanor part of the reason his legacy has suffered so much? Jeff recounts his book on the Cowboys and what made Jimmy Johnson's team so special. What made Bo Jackson one of the best athletes of all-time and what was the one sport he couldn't play? Jeff talks about Brett Favre and why he was legendary. Jeff previews his project on Tupac (coming out in October) and how he spoke to over 650 people for research.
We play 'Start, Bench, Cut' with College Quartback trios from their alma-maters. Put the QBs in order from Oklahoma, Florida, Oregon, and USC. Matt and Bobby are both ready for real football and Matt is preparing for upcoming Media Days.
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel is part of the NFL Podcast Network
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is
a production of the NFL and iHeart Podcasts. We Got lots.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Just say.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
We got lost.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We're begger here and we hope you say because we
got lost.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Just say.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, we got lost.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Now here's Bobby that.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Everybody welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
A question when you've played and I know, the culture
of jersey swapping and signing wasn't a thing, at least
not as outwardly.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
Did you guys do that?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Did you have anybody's jersey from when you played against it?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Like? Can I get your jersey?
Speaker 6 (00:46):
No, I'm thinking back, I would have probably liked to
try to get some of these guys that I played
against and opponents that you just have a ton of
respect for. But it really didn't come become popular until
later in my career when some of these younger guys
started to go out and swap jerseys and do all that.
And I thought, man that I really missed the boat
on that one. What I had a stacked up jersey case,
(01:08):
you know.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
If he could go back and get one.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, that's good.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
I mean far, as I've said multiple times on this show,
that he was just my childhood hero, one of those
guys that I'd watch religiously had the Brett fav of
cleats in high school, you know. Just and then also
it goes back to my playing days when my first
start in New England in the NFL was against the
Jets and Brett Favre was the quarterback and he was
the first guy to come up right after the game,
(01:35):
even though they lost, shake my hand and say, I'm
really excited for you.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
That was such a big moment for me.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Did he know you were a fan or was he
just that person?
Speaker 5 (01:45):
He was just that person.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
He had that type of polarizing personality that it was
infectious and you could tell, like the way he played
on the field was also how he interacted with you
before the game after the game, and so that was
cool to see that in person and actually have him
come up because I really hadn't had any interaction with
him prior to that.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, that's cool. It was pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I did a deal once where I went up and
I worked out with the Cardinals and we were just
shooting some content and I'm a Cubs fan, so it's
weird for me to wear anything Cardinals but also I'm
an adult now, so it's fine.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
So yeah, I'm not a game.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It's not as romantic as I'm never wearing Cardinals, although
I'd still really struggle putting on at Texas Longhorns anything.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
But you know what, oh Arkansas. Oh man. It's like, yeah,
it's inside of me.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
But I go up and we are shooting the stuff
and Paul Goldschmidt comes out, who's not with the Yankees,
and he's had an awesome career probably will be a
Hall of Famer, and we're interviewing him and he was like,
you know, I used to listen to you when I
was in college. I was like twenty four and he
was like twenty one. He's like, I used to listen
to you in college when I was playing baseball. And
(02:50):
I was like, no way goes Yeah, we listen to
you every morning, like And so I took the microphone.
This is such a stupid story, but I like it already.
I took the microphone I was using and small flex here,
but I was the youngest person ever put into the
Radio Hall of Fame and so nobody cares though so small,
and so I signed it and then I traded him
(03:13):
a signed microphone for one of his sign bats.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
It was fun and he thought it was funny. And
so I still have the Paul Golschmidt signed bat from
his locker.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
That's rad. Yeah, And that's a good exchange right there.
See that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
And so I told him, I said, you're getting a
Hall of Famer. I'm getting hopefully one, you know. And
luckily he's a good sport. Have you watched any of
the Quarterback series on Netflix.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
I've watched a little bit of it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Have you watched season one or season two or both?
Speaker 6 (03:39):
I think it was season one with Mahomes Mariota.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Was Cousins in that one as well. Yes, he was
in two seasons.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Right, So Cousins is still on this season on this season?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So, and I watched sum of season one. I felt
it was a little corny at times, and I don't
think it was the players. I think it was just
how they would do the games. It just felt I
liked it, right, but there was a corniness to it
that didn't keep me completely invested.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So I just want clips.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
But it did make me like Kirk Cousins because he
didn't have anything to me other than wearing coming out
wearing the chain, I didn't understand like Kirk Cousins are
and understand what he was as a person, and not
that a TV show gives you everything about a person,
but it made me like Kirk Cousins right.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
He's a straight laced, really good dude, like solid dude,
solid human being, right, and there's no ego involved. He's
a true professional in every sense of the word word.
And you can definitely see that as the season goes on,
that his dedication to his craft, to being the quarterback,
the responsibility that comes along with that, and then going
(04:41):
out and trying to perform at.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
A high level.
Speaker 6 (04:44):
I do believe that that show gives you great insight
into the stresses and what takes place during a season,
whether it's battling minor injuries or whether it's you know,
you go through a difficult loss, and just the logistics
that go on in a season, because a lot of
time you just see the byproduct of all the hard
work that got put in during the week. You just
(05:05):
see the final outcome on a Sunday, but you don't
really understand how much preparation and work goes into a
weekly Based on a weekly basis to perform on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a scene in this season where it's Kirk Cousins's
wife talking about getting the call from the coach saying, hey,
we need to talk. Cousins goes in basically as told
you're not the starter anymore. And then Cousins comes home
and is obviously upset, sad, disappointed, whatever it is, understands
(05:39):
but is all of that. And then she walks and
she sees him talking to Michael Pennix on the phone
like this is your job now, Like you got to
get this. You've been waiting for this. How common is
it that one quarterback would do something like that when
they get pitched for the second quarterback?
Speaker 6 (05:54):
You know, I had a similar situation, I believe when
I was in my last year in Kansas City and
Brady Quinn was our backup quarterback. Romeo Cornell was our
now our head coach. She was then interroom head coach
after Todd Haley got fired my third year and I
was just coming back off of a concussion and so
I thought I was going to come back in and play.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I sat out one week.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Brady started that week, and I thought I was coming back,
and it was going to be my job still, and
I got called in and he said, hey, Matt, I
know that this is tough circumstances, but we're going to
go with Brady this week again. And you know, nothing
really prepares you for that type of conversation when you're
the starter and you envision yourself as a starter, and
(06:36):
it is a gut punch for sure, but you have
two different ways in which you can handle it. You
can pout, you can get pissed off, you can be
that guy that becomes a distraction, or you're a guy
that spends a lot of time with these other quarterbacks.
You spend so much time throughout the course of a
year with these quarterbacks. They're all your buddies and your friends.
And so I went up to Brady and I said, hey,
(06:57):
I just got the news you're going to be starting
this week. And look, at the end of the day,
I'm going to be your biggest supporter. I'm not here
to try to, you know, go behind your back. Can
you know, rally these guys against you. If that's their decision,
that's their decision. And it takes you know, you got
to put on your big boy pants when that happens
because you have to swallow your pride a little bit,
and it's a difficult circumstance.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
But I don't know.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
I've also been around people that it doesn't always go
that way, and they go into meetings, they could become
a shell of themselves. You can openly see it on
their face in which they're not there for the team,
they're there.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
For themselves, so to speak.
Speaker 6 (07:33):
And so at some point, especially when you play a
team sport, I think the biggest thing that you've got
a first and foremost do is you know, you got
to suck it up and do what's best for the team,
even though you might.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Not agree with it.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
If they were shooting this with the Patriots back when
you played, imagine the season where Brady gets hurt and
you go in, like, what do you think of three
main storylines would have been?
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Well, obviously a kid that hadn't started since high school
would be the number one storyline there. I think it
would be the relationship in the dynamic between Bill Belichick
and how he's going to get this young upstart going
and give him confidence because he handled me differently than
he had in years past when I was just the
backup he didn't ride me as much.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
He definitely held me accountble, don't get me wrong, but
he'll he brought me in.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
I remember one day we had lost to the San
Diego Chargers at the time, and we got beat pretty substantially,
and I was wavering a little bit, just because you're
still trying to earn the confidence of your teammates. At
that point, he said, look, Matt, we're not bringing anybody
else in.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
We've got you. We believe in you.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
And that was different because I hadn't had any discussion
like that with him before, one on one where he
came up and openly said positive things and tried to
reinforce that, hey, you're here for a reason. Now just
go out and do your job with the best of
your ability. And we think that that that'll be enough.
And so I think that that dynamic would be interesting.
And then there's also the Brady Castle relationship throughout the course.
(09:02):
Oh my goodness, Tom Brady, right now, Tom, Tom, hold on,
I'll tell you talk to you right after that about
cover two defense and why I should have run instead
of thrown.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
That ball into a double defense.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
No, but then there's that relationship, and I think it
was an interesting dynamic because of everything he was going
through with the surgery and then at the same time,
something went wrong with the surgery they had.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
To go back in and all that stuff.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
But then the conversations that we would have on a
weekly basis and the support factor that he had was
definitely an interesting storyline. Maybe not as much as we
started to win games and started to see these guys
and these veteran guys like Rodney Harrison and Matt Light
and all the guys that I had had relationships with
rally around me, Teddy Bruski, and the confidence that started
(09:44):
to breed through the team, even though they knew Tom
Brady was in the shadows and was going to come
back at some point, but started the belief within the
building and not listening to all the other people talk about, well,
they're done for the year, they can't do anything. Because
the quarterback situations a major issue.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Were you trade right after that season?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
I was traded so at first because of the situation
with Tom's knee and how long it would take. They
franchised me. So I was franchised, so I was under contract,
and then.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
At the season start with you on the team.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
No.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
The next season did not start, so we're so Scott Pioli,
who was the head of player personnel with New England,
got the GM job with New with the Kansas City Chiefs,
and then shortly thereafter I got a phone call from
Bill Belichick that said he was making the trade for
me and I was going to Kansas City.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Is that because they knew or they felt pretty positive
about Brady's knee actually being able to and then they
held on to you just in case, right, right.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
And I think that I was the backup plan again,
just in case he wasn't ready to go. They knew
that they had somebody that could go out and win games,
and so instead of just letting me become a free agent,
they had me as an emergency plan basically under a
franchise tender, with the understanding that they had control over
my rights and could trade me anywhere.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
If you get traded and you're tagged. So if you
get tagged it's one year and it's like the average
of the top five quarterback or whatever it was, that's
a significant bomp. And if you get franchised for that
year but you're traded, do you still get paid the
same amount that they franchised you for for that year.
Speaker 6 (11:22):
So I was traded under the franchise tag for the
one year franchise tag, so I didn't have to sign
a long term deal with Kansas City. But what it
does do is gives you a bargaining chip for as
you said, the average of the top five players at
that position, that that's my starting point for year one
moving forward to sign a long term deal. So I
signed a six year deal with them, But that was
(11:44):
kind of the bargain ships that we had was, hey,
well this is our starting point, which was pretty significant
at that point in my career obviously.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So when they trade a franchise player, they're trading the
franchised one year contract.
Speaker 6 (11:57):
Right, And a lot of times the other organization will
not make a trade for a player until they get
a deal in place, because otherwise, you get that player
for one year and then they could play under the
franchise center and leave to go somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
So if somebody has been franchised they decide to finally
trade them, they'll try to make sure that a deal's
in place, signed, sealed, and delivered before they bring them
in to their organization.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Who is the backup quarterback after you left in New England?
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Kevin O'Connell.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
So Kevin O'Connell was there, and then I think they
it was either the year I left or the following
year that they brought in Jimmy Garoppolo.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Was O'Connell your backup.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
He was my backup, so they he was drafted in
like the second or third round. The fourth year. That's
the year that Brady went down.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
I was in my final year my rookie contract, and
they drafted him, and I was like, oh boy, they
already drafted my replacement.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
So I'm like sitting.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
There battling my off during training camp, saying, hey, this
is job security.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
I got to win this job.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Or they could maybe go with Kevin O'Connell, and luckily
I did. But all of a sudden, Brady goes down
and now Kevin O'Connell's my backup quarterback, So then it
was the two of us and then maybe Matt Gutierres
they brought back as like a third string guy on
the team as well, and the following year they might
have drafted Jimmy. The next year if not, then Kevin,
(13:20):
I think was the backup quarterback the next year.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
That's pretty cool. Your backups now the Vikings breaking head coach.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah, it's all killing it. It's killing it. Yeah, I mean,
and he's such a good dude.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Was he a dude though?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Too?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
You could see being a coach.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
I mean I say that, but it was probably later
on I started to see that that was the way
that he was.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Going to go in his trajectory.
Speaker 6 (13:44):
Whereas when you come in as a rookie quarterback, any
rookie quarterback, especially in that situation, you're kind of a
fish out of water. You're trying to find your footing,
understand what's going on all the different elaborate calls that
we had at the line of scrimmage, the checks. And
I'd been in that system for four years, so there
was a lot of a learning curve right there. But
then as the discussions progressed over the years, you start
(14:08):
to see immediately he oh, he gets it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Jeff Pearlman coming up next. He wrote books on Farv
bo Jackson, the nineties, Dallas Cowboys, Barry Bonds. He's got
how many number one best sellers he have? Kevin ten
number one bestsellers, Like he has a book on TUPAC
coming out. He is literally one of my favorite interviews
that I can do, or anytime he's on anything I watch,
we will talk to him. Coming up next, I'd like
(14:48):
to welcome Jeff Pearlman, who I'd say is a friend.
We never actually met in person, but like he I
don't know, we text. I'm like, it's cool, I'm texting
with Jeff Pearlman. Jeff, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
You know, I don't pick my friends easy, but if
I can find one on TikTok, I'm all in.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah, a fun thing that have to because Jeff, was
are you an adjunct professor?
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Would that be your title there?
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Corret?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And so will you explain to Matt the project that
you did and that I was a part of.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, well, Matt, you should be warned. You're gonna now
You're gonna be roped into this.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
I can't wait.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah, I do a final proud. I teach basically long
form journalism at Chapman, not that far from where you
grew up. You know you knew chap Did you know
Chapman growing up?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I know Chapman?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, aren't, aren't circle? So we taught a final lesson
was every every student, we do a draft of notable people,
and Bobby was in this year's draft. Fact, he was
the number one pick.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
In the draft.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Oh and they have to write a you know, two
thousand word profile of the person. So I interviewed them,
interviewing some of people from their lives and write these
long pieces about them. So Bobby did go number one
in the draft. He can always hold that over you.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Was there any stiff competition though? Is what I have?
Speaker 6 (16:00):
The next question I have to ask, like who went
second in the draft?
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Wait, I don't remember who went second in the draft.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It was you never do you know Marcus Latimore?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Marcus Lattimore I think went second actually, and so that's
a pretty good pick right there. Yeah, you know Latimore
on our under projections, we latimoer are going one bones
going seventh.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
But so you I didn't know there was a projection list.
I told Jeff, I'm kidding, I said. I said, I'm
happy to do it because whatever you want me to do,
I'm in I said, But I'm so nervous about getting
picked last. It's just like that, you know, from being
a kid, he had pick glass and everything that was
That was what I and she did good, right, the
grade was good.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, she got a. I mean, you know, you were
no Latimore, but you were very good.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Nice, very very of course that's what I'm off and told.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
You're no Latimore, but we'll take you're the first overall picks. Right,
let's go.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I do want to start Jeff with a question about
something we've talked about on this show a whole bunch,
and I would just like your opinions that you wrote
on Barry Bonds. I have said, and it was a
very hot take, flaming hot. Nobody wants to touch it
that I think Barry Bonds was better at baseball than
Michael Jordan was a basketball What do you think about
how that crazy hot take.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I mean, if you're in you have to throw in
the fact that he was using performance and enhancing drugs obviously, right,
so we're saying that we're allowing that as a thing.
I probably would agree with you. I mean, when I
was covering Bonds, I was at Sports Illustrated covering Bonds
at his absolute freakish heyday, when he was going over
seventy at home runs. You couldn't pitch to him. I mean,
the ultimate moment for me was they were playing the Diamondbacks.
(17:24):
Bases reloaded and Buck Shawalter walked him intentionally to walk
in a run because the fear of him hitting a
Grand Slam was so great. I mean, that doesn't happen.
So he definitely he was unpitchable. You could not pitch
the Berry Bonds. He had no weak spot in a
strike zone. He could turn on anyone's fastball. So yeah,
at his best, juice or not. For just saying whatever,
(17:45):
he was as as great a performer as you'll see.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, I think juice counts because it was just what
we saw and what we got to live through. I
felt smoking hot take that he was. Nobody wanted to
face him ever were Jordan was one of five. It's
one on one with Bonds in the pitcher, you know,
and so I felt like you could double team Jordan
to make somebody else score. You really couldn't double team Bonds.
(18:08):
Well you can do is walk him or you could
hit him. And that was pretty much it.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
He was at a really unique place in his career.
He basically had like when I was growing up, Ricky
Henderson had the impenetrable strike zone, Like you couldn't pitch
Ricky Henderson and Bonds is the only other guy I
knew who had that where he just he had an
incredible eye for the ball. You couldn't pitched from him.
It's not like you could fool him on pitches. He
had the Tony Gwinn intelligence, the Ricky Henderson strike zone,
(18:36):
and the Babe Ruth power all combined in one player.
So yeah, I mean, at his best, I've never seen
anyone like that.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
Because of the performance enhancing performance enhancing aspect to his career,
do you think that he doesn't get the credit for
being the Michael Jordan of batting that otherwise he would
if all these different stories didn't come out.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I think there's two things about it. I think number one,
he definitely gets an asterisk to his name by a
lot of people. I think number two, just being honest,
being completely honest about this, he was He was mean
to people like he was a mean guy. He was
a mean guy to cover, He was a mean guy
to teammates. He was a mean guyd of fans. He
was the kind of guy where like, in basic terms,
you hold the door for him, he doesn't say thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So And this is my last Bonds question, But where
do you think that is?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Based? Like what's the truck?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Because I might have some traits about me that are great,
some that are awful based on how I grew up
and the circumstances I grew up in not good but
have made me really strong in some ways and at times,
like my human emotional intelligence isn't great. But where did
what happened in Barry Bonds's life? Do you think because
you spent all this time learning about him and talking
to people that knew him from all ages, why did
(19:48):
he become a.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
I think it's a great question. Actually, I think a
lot of what happened with Bonds has to do with
being raised. So his dad, Bobby Bonds, was a major
league star. The other primary mayor role model in his
life who someone called his godfather was Willie Mays. And
those two guys when they were playing baseball, it was
the era where the blackball players should just be grateful
for being here. And if a blackball player needed a
(20:12):
day off, he was a complainer. He was a maligner
for blackball player, asked for more and more, for more money,
he was ungrateful, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and
I really think Barry saw from those guys understandably that
like baseball wasn't going to treat you that well, and
you had to be your own guy. You had to
be resilient, you had to be a batter, You couldn't
take anything at face value. These guys were going to
(20:34):
pay your lip service, but they really weren't going to
treat you well. And I just think from Bonds, from
Willie Mays, from being growing up in the clubhouse around
these guys, he developed a very severe shell that came
off in very prickly ways. I mean, Willie Mays was
not a fun guy to deal with. He was a
joyful baseball player. Willie Mays was kind of the same way.
Bobby Bond was kind of the same way. They just
(20:54):
developed a prickliness that didn't turn off Jeeff.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
You wrote the book Boys Will Be Boys, and it
was about the glory days, the part Knights of Dallas Cowboys.
Now we all have heard these stories of the night
nineteen nineties cowboys and their partying ways. When you think
about those teams with all those different personalities, and then
I think at Jimmy Johnson, right, and he kind of
let them be themselves. How much of a role did
(21:18):
he play in the success of keeping that group together
and being able to go out and actually perform on
Sundays with all the chaos going on outside the building.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Right, So he was. It's kind of amazing. Like their
first Super Bowl run. This is like Jimmy Johnson nuts
out their first Super Bowl run. They play a playoff
game against the Chicago Bears and they're winning big, and
late in the game, Jimmy Johnson inserts their backup running
back to him at Smith. This a guy named Curvin
Richards who had been a star pitch. I think he'd
been a fourth round pick the Cowboys. They insert him
(21:49):
in the game playoff game, Cowboys are winning big insignificant
fourth quarter, Curvin Richards fumbles twice, and after the game,
Jimmy Johnson goes into Jerry Jones's office and says, I
want to cut Curvin Richards and Jimmy and Jerry Jones says, well,
it's too late. We can't cut him because we can't
(22:09):
replace his roster spot. I don't give a crap, we're
cutting that guy. I don't want that guy on my
team anymore. And he's like, are you sure? You're gonna
have a man short cut him. And they cut Curvin Richards.
And it wasn't like Jimmy Johnson hated Curvin Richards. His
number one thing was I want to send a message
right to my team that like, I will do this
(22:29):
to you and the other thing he did that I like,
I don't know, kind of actually interested how you had
this in your career, Like he made it very clear,
I am not treating all of you the same, like
Trey Iigman, Emmett Smith, Charles Hally, Darren Woodson will get
better treatment than Clayton Holmes and Kevin Smith. Like that's
just the way it is. And you guys need to
(22:49):
know that with stardom comes better treatment and more empathy
and more understanding. And I actually think the players who
are lower on the totem pole responded to that with
fear fighting for your job all the time, and the
players like Aikman just felt comfort in knowing that their
coach out their back. I don't know if that's uncommon or not.
You would actually know better.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Well, it's interesting because I played for Bill Belichick, and
Bill Belichick always treated everybody equally and nobody really got
special treatment. And I'm talking about from Brady to Randy Moss.
If you did something in a game that you need
to be called out for, he'd call you out in
front of the entire team. And so it was always
this interesting dynamic because you definitely felt it as a
young guy that you've got to step up, but you're
going to be held accountable in every phase. Now, other
(23:29):
coaches operate differently, and by that I mean same thing
that you just kind of discussed was certain players have
earned the right to not be thrown under the fire
in front of the team, maybe talk to individually or
have a discussion on the side, whereas the younger players
were the guys that were going to get most of
(23:51):
the criticism in those meetings. So it was all based
on the coach and what you would see. But Bill
Belichick did it completely different.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
What about like Todd Hayley or what about there's other
coaches you had. Were they different than Belichick in that way?
Speaker 6 (24:06):
Not so much like I remember Todd Haley. This was
a funny story. Jackie Battle was on kickoff team and
we had a kickoff or it was a punt team,
excuse me.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
And the ball was a touchback.
Speaker 6 (24:16):
Jackie Battle wasn't even around the ball, but Todd thought
that he was the guy that was supposed to block
it and get us to get a little down ball
inside the ten yard line. Well, he's running off the
sideline and Jackie doesn't know what's going on. He can
see Todd yelling him. He's like, Jackie, you're just cut tomorrow.
You're cut tomorrow. And to Todd's credit, the next day
he found out it wasn't even Jackie Battle, it was
(24:38):
another player, and so he went up and said, Jackie, don'torry.
Your job's safe for now because I realized that wasn't
even you. But I mean, he's coming off the field
in the first quarter of a game, yell at him,
you're cut, your cut. So was he kind of had
the same He came from that parcels tree where he's
gonna get after you, he's gonna ride you, he's going
to make sure that you're accountable like that. So it's
(24:59):
all based on where these guys come from, in the
pedigree that they grew up in.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
With all the athletes that you've written, and you've written
a lot of books and a lot of great athletes,
and I use the word athlete because I'm gonna ask
about Bo Jackson. Was Bo Jackson the best athlete of
all of the athletes that you've covered, or did he
just choose wisely?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Oh? No, there's no there's no close second. There's no
close second. I mean it sounds fixed No, okay, I
acknowledge it sounds fixed on. You're in a four to
one three forty at Auburn and he was two hundred
and twenty pounds in a track star. He shows up
at the Raiders and he puts on pads and Tom
Flores as a coach, and he's like, let's have you
(25:40):
do a forty almost for entertainment, and you're in a
a four to one nine, and they didn't believe it,
so they laid it out again and you're in a
four to one seven, Like he was propositible. I always
say like, this is what I always say. People are like, uh,
Bo Jackson. I'm like, all right, there have been other
Tyreek Hill super fast, right? Whoever? Barry Bond's super powerful.
(26:04):
The clip of Barry climbing up the wall in Baltimore,
literally running toward the wall thinking I can either stop
and pop something, run forward, running up the wall, running
across the wall, running down the wall. There's no other
footage of any other human doing that ever, Like literally,
there's one person who has climbed up a Major League
baseball wall during a game, run across the wall, and
(26:27):
run down the wall, and that's Bo Jackson. And always
say that to me is the perfect embodiment of who
he was. He's the only human being on the planet
who could run up the wall, run across the wall.
He was just the unparalleled merging of power and strength
and strength and speed. Just there's no one like it.
Speaker 6 (26:42):
How much money do you think he'd make in the
nil space now in today's college game?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
I mean, I mean pick the max. He was playing
at Auburn. He was a super duper due. I mean,
it's funny like he was. You know, they're all getting
paid under the table back then, and in hindsight it
was his pennies he'd be. The one thing he lacked,
I mean, the one thing he actually lacked is charisma,
Like he was not a charismatic human being. He had
a stud he grew up with a stutter. It took
(27:07):
him a long time to feel confident talking. So I
don't know how great he would have been at that
stage in his life as a pitchman. Even if you
look at the bow Nos campaign Bono's Baseball, Bonos Football.
One of the great keys of that is you don't
have to say very much. It was a limited interactive
advertising series that worked wonders. So I think the one
thing he would trul like he would not be a
TikTok superstar. He wouldn't be an Instagram superstar as a conversationalist.
(27:30):
But his athleticism was so freaky. The other thing is
it's a problem with nowadays, like a lot of bo
Jackson truly was the mythology of it all, Like he
ran a four one three forty. It has been documented,
blah blah blah, but there is no video of it,
you know, like the people with the Raiders swear they
clocked him at four one nine showed me the four
to nine oclocking, but there's no video of it. And
there's something about seeing stuff that actually removes the mythology
(27:53):
of it all, Like once you see it, it feels
a little less. It's like Babe Bruth's point to shots.
The reason that's so mythological is because we can't see it.
And I feel like it's the same thing with Bo Jackson,
And once you splash stuff on TikTok, it loses a
little bit of like shoe heo Tani. If he'd come
along in the seventies, we'd be talking about these things
he did that you wouldn't believe. But now we can
see him, and they seem a little less believable, less
(28:14):
amazing because we see him, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Because Bo Jackson was from a small town and he
played these sports young. Was he like playing shortstop and
pitching and playing quarterback and where they put the best athletes,
and then eventually he ends up being a running back
and an outfielder.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Yeah, he was a pitcher who threw in the nineties.
He had no control. He played shortstop in high school.
I think he had forty something eras at shortstop, Like
he had no glove at shortstop. Was drafted by the
Yankees a little bit with the idea of being a shortstop.
Never signed with the Yankees, didn't play basketball, sucked to basketball.
Was obviously really good at football, played played on the defense,
(28:53):
play you know, you played both ways back then, obviously,
And he was just really drafted more than anything as
this is supernova athlete, you know who could do everything,
but he coudn't play basketball, couldnt dribble like of basketball.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Do you think his career would have been if he
didn't get that injury to the hip against the Bengals?
What do you think the outlook of or the projection
of what he would have become.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
So I think he was a better football player than
a baseball player. Like I think in football he probably
has an Eric Dicker, you know, he's on that conversation
with Eric Dickers and Walter Payton and Marcus Allen and
all those guys. I think in baseball, his thing about
baseball was he never like he never because he chose
to play football. He never took the time to learn
(29:36):
the things in baseball you need to learn pitch selection,
reading the motion, and reading a defense, looking where the
second basement is playing. None of that stuff at all.
So like physically he was compared to a Roberto Clemente,
a Mike Trout, a Mickey Mantle. I think realistically, if
he'd continued to play, he probably would have had a
Gary Sheffield type career, which is a great career at a
(29:58):
borderline Hall of Fame career. I think football was definitely
his better sport, but he was exceptional both and he's
an All Star in baseball and a pro bowler in football.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
I do want to go over to Brett Favre.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
A lot of people don't know about the car accident
that almost killed Brett, and you wrote about it in
your book. Tell us about that and just talk about
it from the beginning of bit, because again I didn't
know about it until I read it.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Oh my god, wow, it was at Southern Miss. He
almost died. Like that's the thing people don't know about
Brett Farve. He almost died in a car accident, had
to miss. I forgot what year was. I wrote that
book a while ago. Now I forgot what year was
he missed. But the basic idea was he wouldn't play
football again. At first was he's not going to play
this season. Then it's like he's not going to play
(30:42):
the end of the season. But then five just shows
up and plays like the guy was. Just say what
you want about five. There's a lot of good, there's
a lot of bad. Like what he developed at Southern
Miss was his air of indestructibility, you know, Like I mean,
first this is off topic a little. But first game ever,
he wasn't even really on the depth chart and they're
(31:02):
playing Tulane and the coach throws him in late I
think he said he had eighteen beers a night before.
And he's on the sideline and the head coach is like, great,
you're going in, and he vomits all over the sideline,
goes in and beats too lane, Like, no matter what
that guy did, almost dying a car accident, eighteen beers
waste on the sideline, He's just always found a way.
(31:23):
So he was supposed to be dead and instead he
wants up just playing.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
In your opinion, what was it about far that people
just gravitated to and drew them about his play on
the field.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
You know what's funny, Like he just had this thing
like the years, I would say, the post retirement years
have not been kind to Brett Favre reputation wise. We
take the Jen Sturger thing, the Mississippi welfare thing. The
thing that was really interesting about him is like guys
just like felt him, Like you could believe you could
(32:12):
be a black wide receiver from LA you could be
a running back from the sticks of Louisiana. He had
this way of really relating to people and this awe
shucks thing about relating to people, and also like I
will die for you, Like there are a million clips
of Brett Fire throwing these ridiculous blocks on like end
rounds where a lot of quarterbacks might sind a skirt
(32:32):
out of the way a little bit. He just would
freaking die for you. That was the biggest thing about five,
you know. And like he was factually likable. He was
beers after the game in an era where that was
fading out. He was, Oh, you want to hang out,
Let's go duck hunting, Let's go here, blah blah blah.
Black wide receivers love that guy. The offensive lineman, the
(32:52):
white guys who went hunting love that guy. Like he
had a very unique relatability. It's one of the things
I think that happened to Aaron Rodgers in a way
is he walked into a trap in Green Bay because
Aaron Rodgers isn't that guy. Wasn't that guy, couldn't be
that guy. But people were so used to that guy
and Fire. But there's only there are very few guys
like that, like a Terry Bradshaw, that type of guy
you know.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
We're just a few months out from the Tupac book
coming out, Why Tupac.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Love. Tupac felt like there'd never been a definitive, definitive,
definitive interviewed six hundred and fifty people, dig fully into
his life, book written, I want to try something beyond sports,
and all my books have been sports, my career has
been sports, and I just thought, here's the guy. I'm
genuinely fascinated by, a guy whose music speaks to me,
and I thought, why not a white sports writer? You know,
(33:39):
why not? That's the one thing my agent said to me.
I'm gonna be honest. My agent's like, he's like, you know,
there's going to be some people are going to be like,
why a white sports writer? And I think it's a
fair question. And I just from the beginning, i'd been like,
because I'm fascinated by this guy, and there's a book
out there that I want to read that I haven't
seen yet, so I'm going to try writing it.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
When you say you interviewed six hundred and fifty people,
which I believe you obviously, Yeah, talk to me about
how much information of that six hundred and fifty interviews
you actually use or just use this cross referencing to
make sure that I am just it's so interesting to
me that you can go and go into that much
detail but take six hundred and fifty references for one book.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah, it drives me crazy. It's a so like example
I use a lot is like, all right, Tubac went
to the Baltimore Score with Performing Arts for two years.
That was his high school, and I got all the yearbooks, right,
So you go in there and you go name by
name through the yearbooks and you literally make a file
for everyone, not just a classmates, but everyone who is there, teachers, staff, janitors,
(34:41):
et cetera. And one by one you reach out to
these people and like, in a way, the best example
I use is like Brett Fire, Right, you work on
a Brett fire This this is my guiding principle in life. Actually,
as a journalist, Brett Fahre played all those years of football.
At some point there was a free agent running back
from Lehigh in training camp with the Packers. Right, he
(35:04):
was there for three wee. Brett Favre isn't going to
remember anything. He probably wouldn't even remember that guy existed.
Bob Jones from Lehigh but Bob Jones from Lehigh is
going to remember the one time Brett Farev walked up
to him and offered him a bag of pringles, Right,
Bob Jones is going to remember that for the rest
of his life. The free agent from Lehigh who's telling
that story at family reunions, barbecues, et cetera, for the
(35:26):
rest of his life. That's the same with Tupac. At
Baltimore School for the Arts, you find the one person
who's like, oh, yeah, I used to have lunch with
him on Tuesdays. He always drank blank or I was
in his class. So one thing I remember is I
always used to listen to this Kate Bush song blah
blah blah. So like, out of the six hundred and
fifty interviews, I probably quote three hundred of the people directly.
(35:48):
Of the information I get, like the ten thousand pages
of information, I probably used three percent, right, like in
the book, literally three percent. But even knowing it could
be someone could be like, blah blah blah blah blah, boring, boring, boring, boring.
You know, Tubac always used to drink diet pepsi bingo.
Like that little detail tells you something different than he
(36:08):
used to drink soda. He used to drink diet pepsi.
It tells you something about someone, So you're always just
looking for those little details, scouring the little details, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I got two questions left for you with Tupac especially,
and by the way, you can pre order the book now.
Only God can judge me The Many Lives of Tupac,
but comes out October twenty first, so just a few
months away from that. The a lot of thoughts of Tupac,
and especially since he's been dead, it's easy to create
conspiracies around people who can't say the conspiracy is not true.
So one, is Tupac alive? Two, No, there are theories
(36:41):
that Tupac was playing the role of a straight rapper
but was actually a gay actor because you've seen like
clips of him when he was younger.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
Thoughts on both of those.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
He's not alive. He's dead that I can tell you
he was. It's interesting I interviewed I've interviewed multiple people
about Tubaca obviously, and you get into his sexuality, and
there's always been this interview that people cite when he
was in a tam high school in northern California and
he was a high school senior and he does this
very effeminate, flamboyant interview. I would say Tupaca was fluid,
(37:19):
sexually fluid to a certain degree. I don't know if
this is a term primarily straight, like if you look
at his later career, especially death Row, primarily straight or
would I say he was. I think he was probably.
I think in modern days he would probably go down
as by leaning towards straight, like more women than men,
but definitely had experiences in his life.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah, the video is what I was thinking of, because
they show that everybody that has the case of you know,
Tupac was just playing a role or he was an
industry plant in the nineties and he was really just
a thespian an actor who was gay. Look at this
clip of him in high school, Like that's always what
they cite.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yeah, that annoys me. Actually, I mean Tubac was basically
he's a really interesting guy. Like actually, my brother said
to me the other day, he's like he's reading a
book and he's like, he reminds me of Tyler the Creator,
Like Tupac then reminds me a little of Tyler Creator
and I'm like, that's a pretty good comparison. Like Tupac
in a lot of ways, was a kid in the
Baltimore School for the Arts hallway, listening to Kate Bush
(38:20):
and Peter Gabriel, listening to Don McLain, writing poems all day,
writing love letters to his girlfriend, a streak of peroxide
down his flat top, his gumby haircut, with torn jeans
that he's spray painted like. He was a very artistic soul.
And I think what he became later on at Death
Row was kind of real. But I also think kind
of like what he needed to be at that point.
(38:42):
I think a lot of Tubac's life was being what
he needed to be in the moment to survive.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
You guys, check out the book per order now. Only
God can judge me the many lies of Tupac. It's
in the mail, or it's close to in the mail.
I'm ready to read it.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
I am too.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, so I'll get Matt my version when I'm done.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
I have a question, are you guys cool? My next book?
Actually I didn't tell you this, but I'll make it here.
It's it's called Living the Dream. Maccastle in the twenty
eighteen Detroit Lyons.
Speaker 5 (39:07):
I don't know if that was much of a dream
or a nightmare.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, that's more like a pamphlet. Huh, exactly, it's pretty short,
like a many you guys follow Jeff, Great, TikTok? Can
you give us one Can I ask you one more question? Jeff?
I know we're short, we're short on time. Will you
tell Matt? Because I know the story, but I don't
want to step on the story. Will you tell Matt
the story about your wife? I said pamphlet and it's
what kind of clicked in my head, and that's all
(39:34):
I want to say. Will you tell Matt the story
about your wife?
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Are you talking about my wife donating the kidney?
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Oh of course. So my wife, Catherine is a social
worker and five years ago she is in a She's
got love that tell this story actually, because she's such
a good person. She's into Starbucks out here in southern
California and she sees a flyer hanging up and it's
from a woman and she's like, my husband, blah blah
blah needs a kidney. He's been on tialysis for years.
(40:02):
We're looking for a match. My wife come to him
and she's like, uh, She's like, how crazy would it
be if I donated a kidney to a stranger? And
I'm like, knowing her, not that crazy. It's kind of
who she is. And she went in for all the
testing at UCLA. She was a match. She donated her
kidney to a stranger. Not only did she donate her
(40:23):
kidney a stranger. It's one of the best stories ever.
They've become some of our closest friends. We go every
year to their house for Christmas Eve with their family.
They come to our house for like Hanukah and Thanksgiving
a different events, and like, it's become this real bond.
And it's all because she saw this flyer. She donated
a kidney. It's one of the best stories.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Human. Yeah, let alone just off a whim. Hey saw this.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Flyer change someone?
Speaker 6 (40:49):
I made a kidney? Yeah, and now you guys are
best friends. What a remarkable human, Jeff.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
We really appreciate that still married. She's still married a
sports writer despite that good jobs.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Well, I'm also surprised at how much pickup basketball you play.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
And I don't.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I don't believe in the jink, so I don't care.
I don't how you play and you're not like limping
around because I'm afraid to play because I'll pop an
achilles at any time doing anything.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
I am limping around, but not like.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Real limping like you guys. It seems like every week
you're playing pickup ball and I'm like, man, Peerlman just.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Goes the game isn't so good anymore. It's a lot
of down, back to the basket, you know, little pump faceball,
fake stuff like that. But yeah, I still play.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Jeff Perlman. You got to follow my TikTok. He's the
best and the book's coming out and if you're just
a sports fan and no more time. But his book
Showtime ended up being winning Time. So about the Lakers
was a great series which should have never been canceled.
Stupid COVID. One of the worst things about COVID other
than people dying. Obviously, that show was canceled because it
was an excellent show. And congratulations on everything. We really
(41:49):
appreciate the time.
Speaker 5 (41:50):
Jeff, Oh, thank you so much. Thanks Jeff.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Let's play a game, Kevin. What is the game called?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Start, cut and bench?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Oh it's just like f Mary kill.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, pretty much football version of it.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yeah, got so start how about start bench cut?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, I guess that.
Speaker 5 (42:24):
They can't even get to the bench.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
By the way, how do you say the game? And
I'm gonna do my hands so physically, But how do
you say this game rock paper scissors? Interesting because I
don't say it in that that that order.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
How do you say it paper rock scissors.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I've never met anybody that says scissors, paper rock or no.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
One less paper rock scissors. For sure.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
I would say rock paper scissors. What would you say, Brandon?
You would say paper that's weird.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I say rock rock, paper paper scissors.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Yeah. Yeah, what do you say? I said rock paper
sciss Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
No, you said paper rocks. I don't know. Now you
said payeah, okay, yeah, I would say paper rock scissors.
What are we gonna play? Let's do Let's say let's
do paper rock scissors.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
Perfect, that's what would say?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Play start bench cut?
Speaker 5 (43:06):
Okay, start bench cut?
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Before we get to start bench cut. What do you
call those things at the movies? They're run before the
movie starts previous, got it? What do you call them trailers?
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Well?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I don't call them trailers, but there is a large
contingent of people who call them trailers, the people in
the biz or the people I don't know. The two
people I know are from the Midwest.
Speaker 6 (43:30):
So they refer to them as, Oh, I'm gonna get
there early and watch the trail.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
Trailers because they are trailers. But I would say previews, previous.
What do you call what do you call if you're
gonna go get a soda from the gas station, what
do you call it?
Speaker 5 (43:44):
I don't call it a pop. I call it a soda.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
You would even call it a soda. See what we
call everything was a coke. I'm from, Everything was a coke.
Speaker 5 (43:51):
Yeah, that was the weird part.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
Because my family, my cousins and stuff grew up in Ohio.
Speaker 5 (43:57):
They either called it a coke or a pop.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
And it was we always said so in Minesta. For
me now because I've had to learn to Ada to
the just not have a super distinct Southern dialect.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Yeah, because a coke you could still say a coke
where you're from. It could be a.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Sprite, Oh for sure. It almost was never the actual
Coca Cola product. Hey, what do you want to drink?
Speaker 5 (44:19):
Give me a coke? What kind mark pepper? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Interesting anyway, just vernacular exercise.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Little regional thing there.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Okay, so the game is called.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Start bench cut.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Start, start bench scissors starts.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, so you gotta start one. You got a bench
one and you gotta cut one. I'm gonna go through
five colleges.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
These are the players quarterbacks in their college days, not NFL,
just when they were in college playing for these programs.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
Okay, we'll take turns going first. Okay, so first on
the first one, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Number one is Oklahoma Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, and Caleb Williams.
Speaker 5 (44:54):
Okay, I'm going to start. Did all three one? Yes? Wow?
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Because I started to go, well, Caleb? Want to they
all three?
Speaker 5 (45:05):
He won the Heisman.
Speaker 6 (45:06):
Start Kyler Murray. Now, oh only, but we're talking about
when they're in college college.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
Start Kyler Murray, bench, Baker Mayfield, and cut my boy Williams.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Okay, I'm going to start Baker Mayfield, and I'm gonna
tell you why the dude was a walk on twice. Yeah,
he was awesome, and because all three of these guys
are elite, which is what makes the game hard and fun.
The fact that he was a walk on at Tech
and went over to Oklahoma and did the same freaking thing.
(45:41):
And didn't Kyler wait on Baker Mayfield to graduate before
he even got to start. Yeah, Like Baker stayed in
I think an extra year or two and Kyler just
stayed in sat and then balled out. I'm going to go.
I'm going to start Baker, okay, although I'm gonna have
to pay him more nil money probably than the other
two because he had a big, bigger personality than the
(46:02):
other two in personalities. Really that plus twent want equals
in il il uh. So Baker, I'm gonna bench Kyler
just like in the old days.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
Yes, and then I'm.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Gonna cut Caleb, who didn't play on the team when
he was like.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
Four, well he was only he was only there also
for like a year.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, but he bawled out when he came in for Rattler.
Speaker 5 (46:22):
Yeah right, he did. He bawled out and he left
for this coach. But he left. Yeah, so I mean
the cut that he kind of cut himself.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
He did win the freaking Heisman, though, It's tough because.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
All U I see though, Yeah, yeah, it's pretty amazing
the heisman.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I know you don't count of you can't count as us,
I think, he said.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
College he did.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, but for the but he he was at
Oklahoma technically techal you know, so if they're all on
the same team, and yeah, he won the Heisman, just.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Not out all right? What else? Right?
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Number two?
Speaker 5 (46:49):
I'll go that one.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Florida, Danny Warfel, Tim Tebow and Rex Grossman.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Okay, I'm going Tebow number one, yea, without a doubt.
And speaking of which, in il money you got, we
have none left after Baker, but I'm talking about we
are deep in debt, deep in yeah with t BO
and he's donating at all too, like we just yeah,
we got Yeah, babies are getting circumcised in every country.
(47:15):
So I'm going t Bow at one. And you had
to Worfle on who Grossman?
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Rex Grossman?
Speaker 6 (47:25):
Did Warflee win a national championships there with with Florida?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
But uh, I believe he did.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
You should fact check me on this, yep, because I
believe the old ball coat. I mean that that was all.
I'm gonna go Warful. I'm just going from memory though,
like who do I remember more playing?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, ninety six they wanted title, right, they want it.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, I'm gonna go Warful and then Grossman.
Speaker 5 (47:51):
But Grossman. I don't know Grossman was. He's so good.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I know I'm letting his NFL days, I know, which
is unfair because Warfle didn't have the run Grossman had
in the NFL. But because we didn't see him as much,
we don't think of him being terrible.
Speaker 5 (48:05):
Because Grossman with the Bears went to the super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Yes, but I'm telling you the Grossman in my mind,
Grossman the Bears went to the super Bowl in lieu
of their defense is in spite of Grossman. Yeah, And
it's not fair because that's not true. But I'm gonna
go Warful then Grossman.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
I'm gonna do the exact SAME's. I mean, Warful won
a national championship. Tim Tebow's Tim Tebow the next coming,
and Rex Grossman was an outstanding quarterback in college. But
between those two, that's where I'm going.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
The negative association I have with Grossman is totally unfair,
though it is. It is he gets a bad rap yep.
And because and I'm gonna tell you what else is unfair.
I think a Grossman with the Bears, and I also
think of Mitch Trubisky with the Bears, who had a
lot of hypeen didn't play, so then I associate associate.
Speaker 5 (48:53):
Those two together.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
So then I feel worse about Grossman because I feel
like he's Mitch Trubisky and they picked him over Mahomes.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Like this is my mind goes, oh wow, Yeah, that's
able Grossman compared to my Homes.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Yeah, all three, You're awesome.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
A right next up?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Okay, Oregon. Here you got Marcus Mariota, Justin Herbert, and
Joey Harrington.
Speaker 6 (49:11):
Okay, I'm going with Marcus Mariota. Start Joey Harrington bench,
and I'm going with Justin Herbert.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
Cut.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
I'm gonna go the same recency bias maybe a bit here,
but I'm also the reason I'm gonna go with it
starts with Mariota. I remember Marioda, we.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Were up there. There, there's a whole facility. It's the most
amazing facility ever.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
It's like the little Island, yes, crazy Island, with all
of his high school teammates and everything there.
Speaker 5 (49:40):
He's a god.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
And Joey Harrington was on the cover of College Football
back in the day PlayStation, so that automatically gets him
on the team.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
Can you on the team? The billboard that they had
for his high school Trophy in New York, right, they
put up in New York. Yeah, they put it up
in New York. It was just Joe super Tall, super Tall.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Okay, we're the same on that one. Give us another one.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Okay, Texas here you got Vince Young, Nune eliminate them all.
Goldon McCloy, Vince Young and Chris Simms.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Just as you said.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
So, Yeah, the Chris Simms issue that I have is
I was there whenever it was Sims and apple White,
and Sims was brought in as the big five star,
but apple White was still winning, and it was constant
Who's going to start, and there was like drama and
apple got hurt and so that I was just annoyed
by the whole situation. Sims is third.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
You don't like the controversy.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
I don't like Texas, and so that that made me.
Vince Young did win a national championship, Yes, yes, sorry
against your boys.
Speaker 6 (50:41):
I know that was that was probably the greatest, maybe
one of probably the greatest college football game of all time.
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
I was living in winners just in that game. Reggie Bush,
Matt Lionert and did Vince Young. He lost the line
he lost the line.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
But also USC they had Bush, they had thunder and lightning.
Speaker 6 (51:02):
Reggie Berry, that Wayne Jared crazy, Mike Williams.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I'm gonna go Vince Young, then Colt McCoy and Vince
gets it because of it. But Vince was like Cam Newton,
unstopped you as an absolute fan of nature. He was,
and we again, I'm not associated the NFL. I shouldn't
do anything.
Speaker 5 (51:21):
NFL dual threat quarterback everything.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yeah, Vince Young, Colt McCoy and Chris Sims.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
You two, Matt, same thing, same thing, all right, last
one here USC boom, Okay, we got Carson Palmer, Matt
Lioner and our boy Mediccastle.
Speaker 5 (51:35):
Are we talking just about college? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:37):
Can we can we kill? Can we put the kill
one back in and.
Speaker 5 (51:41):
Get Well, I'm cutting liner because that means I'm playing.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
That's funny, that's funny.
Speaker 6 (51:47):
All right, Well, if we're talking just about college, I
mean I played with all these dudes. Seapawk is the
most physically impressive human I've ever been around. Before we
called him seapowk Carson Palmer special number one draft pick.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Overall physically one, because I don't think of him.
Speaker 6 (52:06):
He's six five barrel chested, has an absolute cannon for
an arm. Footwork like he's six', one like his feet
were just dynamic when it talked about perfect footwork drop,
backs you, know like with those old clips that you
see if akemn just in. Rhythm this guy had it.
All and not only.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
THAT i think he ran a four or five or
six coming.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Out i'm glad you said, that because did you guys
think of him as like a, superior as a superior. Quarterback,
yes but obviously we didn't know him.
Speaker 5 (52:35):
Arms he was a freak. Out that's.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
CRAZY i didn't know that or six Five. Wow tell
you he's, white so he seems slow and he's a,
quarterback so he seems, slow.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
And he's stands super. Tall so, yeah it's that.
Speaker 6 (52:48):
Big and he was at a time where us he
was struggling and kind of brought us back into, prominence
like when his senior, year when he came back and
made the decision to come. Back we went to The
Orange bowl and we BEAT i think it Was iowa
for the first First Orange bowl. Victory that's really what
Set Pete carroll up in that kind of. Dynasty but
(53:09):
he took the program to the next. Level So i'm
gonna go With Carson. PALMER i like HOW i stayed the,
first but you're gonna have to go With Matt. Leonard Obviously,
heisman both those Guys Heisman trophy, winners But matt won
what two national championships back to. Back and THEN i,
MEAN i would still like to be on the, team but,
obviously if we've got to have a spot for we
got a spot for you. Back thanks Coach. Carol that's
(53:35):
exactly WHAT i came here. For go get my head beat.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
In, YEAH i GUESS i gotta go with the same
out of, loyalty, though you know, What i'm gonna.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
Put castle in my back.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Up, yeah the guy did great. Work it's a back
up later in. Life you, know we can't go. There
but in the verse two it.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Was a starter. Too, okay don't get don't kid. Yourself that's.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right thank you guys for. Listening here's WHAT i can't
wait for. FOOTBALL i know we've done this podcast now
for months and months without any. Football we've gone through
the absolute Heart we started what In, December, yeah like
when it was over except for like the Super.
Speaker 6 (54:05):
Bowl we we got to talk about the playoffs with
The Super, bowl and then it was just off season.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
Minutia we have just been grinding through.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
It i'm ready to talk about real football next.
Speaker 6 (54:16):
Week next, week the twenty second through the twenty, Fourth
so we've got four teams a day for three days.
Straight it'll be. Fun, well maybe more than. That how
many teams do they, have?
Speaker 5 (54:26):
Now what do you? Mean, oh you mean like they
take the?
Speaker 6 (54:28):
Podium what they take the Pum so we'll do interviews
on the, Side so what every every big network LIKE,
nbccbs whoever Had, fox they'll all have their own space
and rooms set, up so you'll come in and they'll
do individual interviews with coaches. PLAYERS i might do something
on the side for their socials to talk to some
(54:48):
of the quarterbacks and do all, that and then it's
just about interactions with the coaches on the. Field and
then they'll go up and they'll they've got ABOUT i
think five ten minutes on the podium and kind of
talk about their, program promote their, program give us kind
of their feelings about this upcoming. Season it might be,
schedule and then at night they'll have some dinners that
you get to go to and once again rub elbows
(55:10):
with these guys and kind of talk to them and
get to know them a little bit.
Speaker 5 (55:12):
More.
Speaker 6 (55:12):
So it's it's a fun time and it's also a
great kickoff of the.
Speaker 5 (55:16):
Season it's probably.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Fun to go in, too like other sports, people probably
other ex.
Speaker 5 (55:22):
Players, yeah it's a. Blast it's a. Blast so it's,
uh it's three.
Speaker 6 (55:26):
Days it's like truly the kickoff to get going for college.
Football and then it starts at the end OF uh
Into august's last.
Speaker 5 (55:35):
Week august is our first. Game passed. Along, HELLO i
got two bros.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Coaching who you Got Barry, Odue Arry, oda that's my,
dude new.
Speaker 5 (55:43):
Coach he was just here a few weeks. Ago i'm
excited his daughter to Meet Lanny. WILSON i remember you saying, That,
yeah he's the. Best and Then Brett.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Bilamaila those are my.
Speaker 5 (55:53):
Dudes he's a. Study we talked about him last.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
Week then my warm. Regards, okay that's, It thank you,
Guys we'll see you next. Week that's my. Castle that's, Kickoff.
Kevin that Is Brandon ray doing all the. Video thanks
To Jeff. Pearlman be sure if you like the idea
of his two point booker any of his other books
that he is such a great. Writer check it out
and go To Jeff peerlman dot com.
Speaker 5 (56:12):
Or just go to a social and you'll see it all.
There I'm Bobby.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
Bones we've had lots to, say so you guys.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Lots to say With Bobby bones And Matt castle is
a production of THE nfl And iHeart. Podcasts for more
podcasts From, iHeartRadio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts or
wherever you get your.
Speaker 5 (56:32):
Podcasts
Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is
a production of the NFL and iHeart Podcasts. We Got lots.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Just say.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
We got lost.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We're begger here and we hope you say because we
got lost.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Just say.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, we got lost.
Speaker 5 (00:28):
Just say.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Now here's Bobby that.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
Everybody welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
A question when you've played and I know, the culture
of jersey swapping and signing wasn't a thing, at least
not as outwardly.
Speaker 5 (00:42):
Did you guys do that?
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Did you have anybody's jersey from when you played against it?
Speaker 5 (00:45):
Like? Can I get your jersey?
Speaker 6 (00:46):
No, I'm thinking back, I would have probably liked to
try to get some of these guys that I played
against and opponents that you just have a ton of
respect for. But it really didn't come become popular until
later in my career when some of these younger guys
started to go out and swap jerseys and do all that.
And I thought, man that I really missed the boat
on that one. What I had a stacked up jersey case,
(01:08):
you know.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
If he could go back and get one.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, that's good.
Speaker 6 (01:13):
I mean far, as I've said multiple times on this show,
that he was just my childhood hero, one of those
guys that I'd watch religiously had the Brett fav of
cleats in high school, you know. Just and then also
it goes back to my playing days when my first
start in New England in the NFL was against the
Jets and Brett Favre was the quarterback and he was
the first guy to come up right after the game,
(01:35):
even though they lost, shake my hand and say, I'm
really excited for you.
Speaker 5 (01:39):
That was such a big moment for me.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Did he know you were a fan or was he
just that person?
Speaker 5 (01:45):
He was just that person.
Speaker 6 (01:46):
He had that type of polarizing personality that it was
infectious and you could tell, like the way he played
on the field was also how he interacted with you
before the game after the game, and so that was
cool to see that in person and actually have him
come up because I really hadn't had any interaction with
him prior to that.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, that's cool. It was pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I did a deal once where I went up and
I worked out with the Cardinals and we were just
shooting some content and I'm a Cubs fan, so it's
weird for me to wear anything Cardinals but also I'm
an adult now, so it's fine.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
So yeah, I'm not a game.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
It's not as romantic as I'm never wearing Cardinals, although
I'd still really struggle putting on at Texas Longhorns anything.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
But you know what, oh Arkansas. Oh man. It's like, yeah,
it's inside of me.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
But I go up and we are shooting the stuff
and Paul Goldschmidt comes out, who's not with the Yankees,
and he's had an awesome career probably will be a
Hall of Famer, and we're interviewing him and he was like,
you know, I used to listen to you when I
was in college. I was like twenty four and he
was like twenty one. He's like, I used to listen
to you in college when I was playing baseball. And
(02:50):
I was like, no way goes Yeah, we listen to
you every morning, like And so I took the microphone.
This is such a stupid story, but I like it already.
I took the microphone I was using and small flex here,
but I was the youngest person ever put into the
Radio Hall of Fame and so nobody cares though so small,
and so I signed it and then I traded him
(03:13):
a signed microphone for one of his sign bats.
Speaker 5 (03:16):
That's cool.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
It was fun and he thought it was funny. And
so I still have the Paul Golschmidt signed bat from
his locker.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
That's rad. Yeah, And that's a good exchange right there.
See that.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
And so I told him, I said, you're getting a
Hall of Famer. I'm getting hopefully one, you know. And
luckily he's a good sport. Have you watched any of
the Quarterback series on Netflix.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
I've watched a little bit of it.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Have you watched season one or season two or both?
Speaker 6 (03:39):
I think it was season one with Mahomes Mariota.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
Was Cousins in that one as well. Yes, he was
in two seasons.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Right, So Cousins is still on this season on this season?
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So, and I watched sum of season one. I felt
it was a little corny at times, and I don't
think it was the players. I think it was just
how they would do the games. It just felt I
liked it, right, but there was a corniness to it
that didn't keep me completely invested.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
So I just want clips.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
But it did make me like Kirk Cousins because he
didn't have anything to me other than wearing coming out
wearing the chain, I didn't understand like Kirk Cousins are
and understand what he was as a person, and not
that a TV show gives you everything about a person,
but it made me like Kirk Cousins right.
Speaker 6 (04:21):
He's a straight laced, really good dude, like solid dude,
solid human being, right, and there's no ego involved. He's
a true professional in every sense of the word word.
And you can definitely see that as the season goes on,
that his dedication to his craft, to being the quarterback,
the responsibility that comes along with that, and then going
(04:41):
out and trying to perform at.
Speaker 5 (04:42):
A high level.
Speaker 6 (04:44):
I do believe that that show gives you great insight
into the stresses and what takes place during a season,
whether it's battling minor injuries or whether it's you know,
you go through a difficult loss, and just the logistics
that go on in a season, because a lot of
time you just see the byproduct of all the hard
work that got put in during the week. You just
(05:05):
see the final outcome on a Sunday, but you don't
really understand how much preparation and work goes into a
weekly Based on a weekly basis to perform on Sunday.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
There's a scene in this season where it's Kirk Cousins's
wife talking about getting the call from the coach saying, hey,
we need to talk. Cousins goes in basically as told
you're not the starter anymore. And then Cousins comes home
and is obviously upset, sad, disappointed, whatever it is, understands
(05:39):
but is all of that. And then she walks and
she sees him talking to Michael Pennix on the phone
like this is your job now, Like you got to
get this. You've been waiting for this. How common is
it that one quarterback would do something like that when
they get pitched for the second quarterback?
Speaker 6 (05:54):
You know, I had a similar situation, I believe when
I was in my last year in Kansas City and
Brady Quinn was our backup quarterback. Romeo Cornell was our
now our head coach. She was then interroom head coach
after Todd Haley got fired my third year and I
was just coming back off of a concussion and so
I thought I was going to come back in and play.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
I sat out one week.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Brady started that week, and I thought I was coming back,
and it was going to be my job still, and
I got called in and he said, hey, Matt, I
know that this is tough circumstances, but we're going to
go with Brady this week again. And you know, nothing
really prepares you for that type of conversation when you're
the starter and you envision yourself as a starter, and
(06:36):
it is a gut punch for sure, but you have
two different ways in which you can handle it. You
can pout, you can get pissed off, you can be
that guy that becomes a distraction, or you're a guy
that spends a lot of time with these other quarterbacks.
You spend so much time throughout the course of a
year with these quarterbacks. They're all your buddies and your friends.
And so I went up to Brady and I said, hey,
(06:57):
I just got the news you're going to be starting
this week. And look, at the end of the day,
I'm going to be your biggest supporter. I'm not here
to try to, you know, go behind your back. Can
you know, rally these guys against you. If that's their decision,
that's their decision. And it takes you know, you got
to put on your big boy pants when that happens
because you have to swallow your pride a little bit,
and it's a difficult circumstance.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
But I don't know.
Speaker 6 (07:19):
I've also been around people that it doesn't always go
that way, and they go into meetings, they could become
a shell of themselves. You can openly see it on
their face in which they're not there for the team,
they're there.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
For themselves, so to speak.
Speaker 6 (07:33):
And so at some point, especially when you play a
team sport, I think the biggest thing that you've got
a first and foremost do is you know, you got
to suck it up and do what's best for the team,
even though you might.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Not agree with it.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
If they were shooting this with the Patriots back when
you played, imagine the season where Brady gets hurt and
you go in, like, what do you think of three
main storylines would have been?
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Well, obviously a kid that hadn't started since high school
would be the number one storyline there. I think it
would be the relationship in the dynamic between Bill Belichick
and how he's going to get this young upstart going
and give him confidence because he handled me differently than
he had in years past when I was just the
backup he didn't ride me as much.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
He definitely held me accountble, don't get me wrong, but
he'll he brought me in.
Speaker 6 (08:16):
I remember one day we had lost to the San
Diego Chargers at the time, and we got beat pretty substantially,
and I was wavering a little bit, just because you're
still trying to earn the confidence of your teammates. At
that point, he said, look, Matt, we're not bringing anybody
else in.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
We've got you. We believe in you.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
And that was different because I hadn't had any discussion
like that with him before, one on one where he
came up and openly said positive things and tried to
reinforce that, hey, you're here for a reason. Now just
go out and do your job with the best of
your ability. And we think that that that'll be enough.
And so I think that that dynamic would be interesting.
And then there's also the Brady Castle relationship throughout the course.
(09:02):
Oh my goodness, Tom Brady, right now, Tom, Tom, hold on,
I'll tell you talk to you right after that about
cover two defense and why I should have run instead
of thrown.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
That ball into a double defense.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
No, but then there's that relationship, and I think it
was an interesting dynamic because of everything he was going
through with the surgery and then at the same time,
something went wrong with the surgery they had.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
To go back in and all that stuff.
Speaker 6 (09:23):
But then the conversations that we would have on a
weekly basis and the support factor that he had was
definitely an interesting storyline. Maybe not as much as we
started to win games and started to see these guys
and these veteran guys like Rodney Harrison and Matt Light
and all the guys that I had had relationships with
rally around me, Teddy Bruski, and the confidence that started
(09:44):
to breed through the team, even though they knew Tom
Brady was in the shadows and was going to come
back at some point, but started the belief within the
building and not listening to all the other people talk about, well,
they're done for the year, they can't do anything. Because
the quarterback situations a major issue.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Were you trade right after that season?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
I was traded so at first because of the situation
with Tom's knee and how long it would take. They
franchised me. So I was franchised, so I was under contract,
and then.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
At the season start with you on the team.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
No.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
The next season did not start, so we're so Scott Pioli,
who was the head of player personnel with New England,
got the GM job with New with the Kansas City Chiefs,
and then shortly thereafter I got a phone call from
Bill Belichick that said he was making the trade for
me and I was going to Kansas City.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Is that because they knew or they felt pretty positive
about Brady's knee actually being able to and then they
held on to you just in case, right, right.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
And I think that I was the backup plan again,
just in case he wasn't ready to go. They knew
that they had somebody that could go out and win games,
and so instead of just letting me become a free agent,
they had me as an emergency plan basically under a
franchise tender, with the understanding that they had control over
my rights and could trade me anywhere.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
If you get traded and you're tagged. So if you
get tagged it's one year and it's like the average
of the top five quarterback or whatever it was, that's
a significant bomp. And if you get franchised for that
year but you're traded, do you still get paid the
same amount that they franchised you for for that year.
Speaker 6 (11:22):
So I was traded under the franchise tag for the
one year franchise tag, so I didn't have to sign
a long term deal with Kansas City. But what it
does do is gives you a bargaining chip for as
you said, the average of the top five players at
that position, that that's my starting point for year one
moving forward to sign a long term deal. So I
signed a six year deal with them, But that was
(11:44):
kind of the bargain ships that we had was, hey,
well this is our starting point, which was pretty significant
at that point in my career obviously.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
So when they trade a franchise player, they're trading the
franchised one year contract.
Speaker 6 (11:57):
Right, And a lot of times the other organization will
not make a trade for a player until they get
a deal in place, because otherwise, you get that player
for one year and then they could play under the
franchise center and leave to go somewhere else.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
So if somebody has been franchised they decide to finally
trade them, they'll try to make sure that a deal's
in place, signed, sealed, and delivered before they bring them
in to their organization.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Who is the backup quarterback after you left in New England?
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Kevin O'Connell.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
So Kevin O'Connell was there, and then I think they
it was either the year I left or the following
year that they brought in Jimmy Garoppolo.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Was O'Connell your backup.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
He was my backup, so they he was drafted in
like the second or third round. The fourth year. That's
the year that Brady went down.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
I was in my final year my rookie contract, and
they drafted him, and I was like, oh boy, they
already drafted my replacement.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
So I'm like sitting.
Speaker 6 (12:52):
There battling my off during training camp, saying, hey, this
is job security.
Speaker 5 (12:58):
I got to win this job.
Speaker 6 (12:59):
Or they could maybe go with Kevin O'Connell, and luckily
I did. But all of a sudden, Brady goes down
and now Kevin O'Connell's my backup quarterback, So then it
was the two of us and then maybe Matt Gutierres
they brought back as like a third string guy on
the team as well, and the following year they might
have drafted Jimmy. The next year if not, then Kevin,
(13:20):
I think was the backup quarterback the next year.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
That's pretty cool. Your backups now the Vikings breaking head coach.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah, it's all killing it. It's killing it. Yeah, I mean,
and he's such a good dude.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
Was he a dude though?
Speaker 5 (13:30):
Too?
Speaker 3 (13:31):
You could see being a coach.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
I mean I say that, but it was probably later
on I started to see that that was the way
that he was.
Speaker 5 (13:42):
Going to go in his trajectory.
Speaker 6 (13:44):
Whereas when you come in as a rookie quarterback, any
rookie quarterback, especially in that situation, you're kind of a
fish out of water. You're trying to find your footing,
understand what's going on all the different elaborate calls that
we had at the line of scrimmage, the checks. And
I'd been in that system for four years, so there
was a lot of a learning curve right there. But
then as the discussions progressed over the years, you start
(14:08):
to see immediately he oh, he gets it.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Jeff Pearlman coming up next. He wrote books on Farv
bo Jackson, the nineties, Dallas Cowboys, Barry Bonds. He's got
how many number one best sellers he have? Kevin ten
number one bestsellers, Like he has a book on TUPAC
coming out. He is literally one of my favorite interviews
that I can do, or anytime he's on anything I watch,
we will talk to him. Coming up next, I'd like
(14:48):
to welcome Jeff Pearlman, who I'd say is a friend.
We never actually met in person, but like he I
don't know, we text. I'm like, it's cool, I'm texting
with Jeff Pearlman. Jeff, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
You know, I don't pick my friends easy, but if
I can find one on TikTok, I'm all in.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
Yeah, a fun thing that have to because Jeff, was
are you an adjunct professor?
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Would that be your title there?
Speaker 4 (15:11):
Corret?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
And so will you explain to Matt the project that
you did and that I was a part of.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Yeah, well, Matt, you should be warned. You're gonna now
You're gonna be roped into this.
Speaker 5 (15:21):
I can't wait.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah, I do a final proud. I teach basically long
form journalism at Chapman, not that far from where you
grew up. You know you knew chap Did you know
Chapman growing up?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
I know Chapman?
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Yeah, aren't, aren't circle? So we taught a final lesson
was every every student, we do a draft of notable people,
and Bobby was in this year's draft. Fact, he was
the number one pick.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
In the draft.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Oh and they have to write a you know, two
thousand word profile of the person. So I interviewed them,
interviewing some of people from their lives and write these
long pieces about them. So Bobby did go number one
in the draft. He can always hold that over you.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Was there any stiff competition though? Is what I have?
Speaker 6 (16:00):
The next question I have to ask, like who went
second in the draft?
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Wait, I don't remember who went second in the draft.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
It was you never do you know Marcus Latimore?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Marcus Lattimore I think went second actually, and so that's
a pretty good pick right there. Yeah, you know Latimore
on our under projections, we latimoer are going one bones
going seventh.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
But so you I didn't know there was a projection list.
I told Jeff, I'm kidding, I said. I said, I'm
happy to do it because whatever you want me to do,
I'm in I said, But I'm so nervous about getting
picked last. It's just like that, you know, from being
a kid, he had pick glass and everything that was
That was what I and she did good, right, the
grade was good.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, she got a. I mean, you know, you were
no Latimore, but you were very good.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Nice, very very of course that's what I'm off and told.
Speaker 5 (16:43):
You're no Latimore, but we'll take you're the first overall picks. Right,
let's go.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
I do want to start Jeff with a question about
something we've talked about on this show a whole bunch,
and I would just like your opinions that you wrote
on Barry Bonds. I have said, and it was a
very hot take, flaming hot. Nobody wants to touch it
that I think Barry Bonds was better at baseball than
Michael Jordan was a basketball What do you think about
how that crazy hot take.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I mean, if you're in you have to throw in
the fact that he was using performance and enhancing drugs obviously, right,
so we're saying that we're allowing that as a thing.
I probably would agree with you. I mean, when I
was covering Bonds, I was at Sports Illustrated covering Bonds
at his absolute freakish heyday, when he was going over
seventy at home runs. You couldn't pitch to him. I mean,
the ultimate moment for me was they were playing the Diamondbacks.
(17:24):
Bases reloaded and Buck Shawalter walked him intentionally to walk
in a run because the fear of him hitting a
Grand Slam was so great. I mean, that doesn't happen.
So he definitely he was unpitchable. You could not pitch
the Berry Bonds. He had no weak spot in a
strike zone. He could turn on anyone's fastball. So yeah,
at his best, juice or not. For just saying whatever,
(17:45):
he was as as great a performer as you'll see.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Yeah, I think juice counts because it was just what
we saw and what we got to live through. I
felt smoking hot take that he was. Nobody wanted to
face him ever were Jordan was one of five. It's
one on one with Bonds in the pitcher, you know,
and so I felt like you could double team Jordan
to make somebody else score. You really couldn't double team Bonds.
(18:08):
Well you can do is walk him or you could
hit him. And that was pretty much it.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
He was at a really unique place in his career.
He basically had like when I was growing up, Ricky
Henderson had the impenetrable strike zone, Like you couldn't pitch
Ricky Henderson and Bonds is the only other guy I
knew who had that where he just he had an
incredible eye for the ball. You couldn't pitched from him.
It's not like you could fool him on pitches. He
had the Tony Gwinn intelligence, the Ricky Henderson strike zone,
(18:36):
and the Babe Ruth power all combined in one player.
So yeah, I mean, at his best, I've never seen
anyone like that.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
Because of the performance enhancing performance enhancing aspect to his career,
do you think that he doesn't get the credit for
being the Michael Jordan of batting that otherwise he would
if all these different stories didn't come out.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
I think there's two things about it. I think number one,
he definitely gets an asterisk to his name by a
lot of people. I think number two, just being honest,
being completely honest about this, he was He was mean
to people like he was a mean guy. He was
a mean guy to cover, He was a mean guy
to teammates. He was a mean guyd of fans. He
was the kind of guy where like, in basic terms,
you hold the door for him, he doesn't say thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So And this is my last Bonds question, But where
do you think that is?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Based? Like what's the truck?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Because I might have some traits about me that are great,
some that are awful based on how I grew up
and the circumstances I grew up in not good but
have made me really strong in some ways and at times,
like my human emotional intelligence isn't great. But where did
what happened in Barry Bonds's life? Do you think because
you spent all this time learning about him and talking
to people that knew him from all ages, why did
(19:48):
he become a.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
I think it's a great question. Actually, I think a
lot of what happened with Bonds has to do with
being raised. So his dad, Bobby Bonds, was a major
league star. The other primary mayor role model in his
life who someone called his godfather was Willie Mays. And
those two guys when they were playing baseball, it was
the era where the blackball players should just be grateful
for being here. And if a blackball player needed a
(20:12):
day off, he was a complainer. He was a maligner
for blackball player, asked for more and more, for more money,
he was ungrateful, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and
I really think Barry saw from those guys understandably that
like baseball wasn't going to treat you that well, and
you had to be your own guy. You had to
be resilient, you had to be a batter, You couldn't
take anything at face value. These guys were going to
(20:34):
pay your lip service, but they really weren't going to
treat you well. And I just think from Bonds, from
Willie Mays, from being growing up in the clubhouse around
these guys, he developed a very severe shell that came
off in very prickly ways. I mean, Willie Mays was
not a fun guy to deal with. He was a
joyful baseball player. Willie Mays was kind of the same way.
Bobby Bond was kind of the same way. They just
(20:54):
developed a prickliness that didn't turn off Jeeff.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
You wrote the book Boys Will Be Boys, and it
was about the glory days, the part Knights of Dallas Cowboys.
Now we all have heard these stories of the night
nineteen nineties cowboys and their partying ways. When you think
about those teams with all those different personalities, and then
I think at Jimmy Johnson, right, and he kind of
let them be themselves. How much of a role did
(21:18):
he play in the success of keeping that group together
and being able to go out and actually perform on
Sundays with all the chaos going on outside the building.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Right, So he was. It's kind of amazing. Like their
first Super Bowl run. This is like Jimmy Johnson nuts
out their first Super Bowl run. They play a playoff
game against the Chicago Bears and they're winning big, and
late in the game, Jimmy Johnson inserts their backup running
back to him at Smith. This a guy named Curvin
Richards who had been a star pitch. I think he'd
been a fourth round pick the Cowboys. They insert him
(21:49):
in the game playoff game, Cowboys are winning big insignificant
fourth quarter, Curvin Richards fumbles twice, and after the game,
Jimmy Johnson goes into Jerry Jones's office and says, I
want to cut Curvin Richards and Jimmy and Jerry Jones says, well,
it's too late. We can't cut him because we can't
(22:09):
replace his roster spot. I don't give a crap, we're
cutting that guy. I don't want that guy on my
team anymore. And he's like, are you sure? You're gonna
have a man short cut him. And they cut Curvin Richards.
And it wasn't like Jimmy Johnson hated Curvin Richards. His
number one thing was I want to send a message
right to my team that like, I will do this
(22:29):
to you and the other thing he did that I like,
I don't know, kind of actually interested how you had
this in your career, Like he made it very clear,
I am not treating all of you the same, like
Trey Iigman, Emmett Smith, Charles Hally, Darren Woodson will get
better treatment than Clayton Holmes and Kevin Smith. Like that's
just the way it is. And you guys need to
(22:49):
know that with stardom comes better treatment and more empathy
and more understanding. And I actually think the players who
are lower on the totem pole responded to that with
fear fighting for your job all the time, and the
players like Aikman just felt comfort in knowing that their
coach out their back. I don't know if that's uncommon or not.
You would actually know better.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Well, it's interesting because I played for Bill Belichick, and
Bill Belichick always treated everybody equally and nobody really got
special treatment. And I'm talking about from Brady to Randy Moss.
If you did something in a game that you need
to be called out for, he'd call you out in
front of the entire team. And so it was always
this interesting dynamic because you definitely felt it as a
young guy that you've got to step up, but you're
going to be held accountable in every phase. Now, other
(23:29):
coaches operate differently, and by that I mean same thing
that you just kind of discussed was certain players have
earned the right to not be thrown under the fire
in front of the team, maybe talk to individually or
have a discussion on the side, whereas the younger players
were the guys that were going to get most of
(23:51):
the criticism in those meetings. So it was all based
on the coach and what you would see. But Bill
Belichick did it completely different.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
What about like Todd Hayley or what about there's other
coaches you had. Were they different than Belichick in that way?
Speaker 6 (24:06):
Not so much like I remember Todd Haley. This was
a funny story. Jackie Battle was on kickoff team and
we had a kickoff or it was a punt team,
excuse me.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
And the ball was a touchback.
Speaker 6 (24:16):
Jackie Battle wasn't even around the ball, but Todd thought
that he was the guy that was supposed to block
it and get us to get a little down ball
inside the ten yard line. Well, he's running off the
sideline and Jackie doesn't know what's going on. He can
see Todd yelling him. He's like, Jackie, you're just cut tomorrow.
You're cut tomorrow. And to Todd's credit, the next day
he found out it wasn't even Jackie Battle, it was
(24:38):
another player, and so he went up and said, Jackie, don'torry.
Your job's safe for now because I realized that wasn't
even you. But I mean, he's coming off the field
in the first quarter of a game, yell at him,
you're cut, your cut. So was he kind of had
the same He came from that parcels tree where he's
gonna get after you, he's gonna ride you, he's going
to make sure that you're accountable like that. So it's
(24:59):
all based on where these guys come from, in the
pedigree that they grew up in.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
With all the athletes that you've written, and you've written
a lot of books and a lot of great athletes,
and I use the word athlete because I'm gonna ask
about Bo Jackson. Was Bo Jackson the best athlete of
all of the athletes that you've covered, or did he
just choose wisely?
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Oh? No, there's no there's no close second. There's no
close second. I mean it sounds fixed No, okay, I
acknowledge it sounds fixed on. You're in a four to
one three forty at Auburn and he was two hundred
and twenty pounds in a track star. He shows up
at the Raiders and he puts on pads and Tom
Flores as a coach, and he's like, let's have you
(25:40):
do a forty almost for entertainment, and you're in a
a four to one nine, and they didn't believe it,
so they laid it out again and you're in a
four to one seven, Like he was propositible. I always
say like, this is what I always say. People are like, uh,
Bo Jackson. I'm like, all right, there have been other
Tyreek Hill super fast, right? Whoever? Barry Bond's super powerful.
(26:04):
The clip of Barry climbing up the wall in Baltimore,
literally running toward the wall thinking I can either stop
and pop something, run forward, running up the wall, running
across the wall, running down the wall. There's no other
footage of any other human doing that ever, Like literally,
there's one person who has climbed up a Major League
baseball wall during a game, run across the wall, and
(26:27):
run down the wall, and that's Bo Jackson. And always
say that to me is the perfect embodiment of who
he was. He's the only human being on the planet
who could run up the wall, run across the wall.
He was just the unparalleled merging of power and strength
and strength and speed. Just there's no one like it.
Speaker 6 (26:42):
How much money do you think he'd make in the
nil space now in today's college game?
Speaker 4 (26:47):
I mean, I mean pick the max. He was playing
at Auburn. He was a super duper due. I mean,
it's funny like he was. You know, they're all getting
paid under the table back then, and in hindsight it
was his pennies he'd be. The one thing he lacked,
I mean, the one thing he actually lacked is charisma,
Like he was not a charismatic human being. He had
a stud he grew up with a stutter. It took
(27:07):
him a long time to feel confident talking. So I
don't know how great he would have been at that
stage in his life as a pitchman. Even if you
look at the bow Nos campaign Bono's Baseball, Bonos Football.
One of the great keys of that is you don't
have to say very much. It was a limited interactive
advertising series that worked wonders. So I think the one
thing he would trul like he would not be a
TikTok superstar. He wouldn't be an Instagram superstar as a conversationalist.
(27:30):
But his athleticism was so freaky. The other thing is
it's a problem with nowadays, like a lot of bo
Jackson truly was the mythology of it all, Like he
ran a four one three forty. It has been documented,
blah blah blah, but there is no video of it,
you know, like the people with the Raiders swear they
clocked him at four one nine showed me the four
to nine oclocking, but there's no video of it. And
there's something about seeing stuff that actually removes the mythology
(27:53):
of it all, Like once you see it, it feels
a little less. It's like Babe Bruth's point to shots.
The reason that's so mythological is because we can't see it.
And I feel like it's the same thing with Bo Jackson,
And once you splash stuff on TikTok, it loses a
little bit of like shoe heo Tani. If he'd come
along in the seventies, we'd be talking about these things
he did that you wouldn't believe. But now we can
see him, and they seem a little less believable, less
(28:14):
amazing because we see him, if that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Because Bo Jackson was from a small town and he
played these sports young. Was he like playing shortstop and
pitching and playing quarterback and where they put the best athletes,
and then eventually he ends up being a running back
and an outfielder.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
Yeah, he was a pitcher who threw in the nineties.
He had no control. He played shortstop in high school.
I think he had forty something eras at shortstop, Like
he had no glove at shortstop. Was drafted by the
Yankees a little bit with the idea of being a shortstop.
Never signed with the Yankees, didn't play basketball, sucked to basketball.
Was obviously really good at football, played played on the defense,
(28:53):
play you know, you played both ways back then, obviously,
And he was just really drafted more than anything as
this is supernova athlete, you know who could do everything,
but he coudn't play basketball, couldnt dribble like of basketball.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Do you think his career would have been if he
didn't get that injury to the hip against the Bengals?
What do you think the outlook of or the projection
of what he would have become.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
So I think he was a better football player than
a baseball player. Like I think in football he probably
has an Eric Dicker, you know, he's on that conversation
with Eric Dickers and Walter Payton and Marcus Allen and
all those guys. I think in baseball, his thing about
baseball was he never like he never because he chose
to play football. He never took the time to learn
(29:36):
the things in baseball you need to learn pitch selection,
reading the motion, and reading a defense, looking where the
second basement is playing. None of that stuff at all.
So like physically he was compared to a Roberto Clemente,
a Mike Trout, a Mickey Mantle. I think realistically, if
he'd continued to play, he probably would have had a
Gary Sheffield type career, which is a great career at a
(29:58):
borderline Hall of Fame career. I think football was definitely
his better sport, but he was exceptional both and he's
an All Star in baseball and a pro bowler in football.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
I do want to go over to Brett Favre.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
A lot of people don't know about the car accident
that almost killed Brett, and you wrote about it in
your book. Tell us about that and just talk about
it from the beginning of bit, because again I didn't
know about it until I read it.
Speaker 4 (30:20):
Oh my god, wow, it was at Southern Miss. He
almost died. Like that's the thing people don't know about
Brett Farve. He almost died in a car accident, had
to miss. I forgot what year was. I wrote that
book a while ago. Now I forgot what year was
he missed. But the basic idea was he wouldn't play
football again. At first was he's not going to play
this season. Then it's like he's not going to play
(30:42):
the end of the season. But then five just shows
up and plays like the guy was. Just say what
you want about five. There's a lot of good, there's
a lot of bad. Like what he developed at Southern
Miss was his air of indestructibility, you know, Like I mean,
first this is off topic a little. But first game ever,
he wasn't even really on the depth chart and they're
(31:02):
playing Tulane and the coach throws him in late I
think he said he had eighteen beers a night before.
And he's on the sideline and the head coach is like, great,
you're going in, and he vomits all over the sideline,
goes in and beats too lane, Like, no matter what
that guy did, almost dying a car accident, eighteen beers
waste on the sideline, He's just always found a way.
(31:23):
So he was supposed to be dead and instead he
wants up just playing.
Speaker 6 (31:41):
In your opinion, what was it about far that people
just gravitated to and drew them about his play on
the field.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
You know what's funny, Like he just had this thing
like the years, I would say, the post retirement years
have not been kind to Brett Favre reputation wise. We
take the Jen Sturger thing, the Mississippi welfare thing. The
thing that was really interesting about him is like guys
just like felt him, Like you could believe you could
(32:12):
be a black wide receiver from LA you could be
a running back from the sticks of Louisiana. He had
this way of really relating to people and this awe
shucks thing about relating to people, and also like I
will die for you, Like there are a million clips
of Brett Fire throwing these ridiculous blocks on like end
rounds where a lot of quarterbacks might sind a skirt
(32:32):
out of the way a little bit. He just would
freaking die for you. That was the biggest thing about five,
you know. And like he was factually likable. He was
beers after the game in an era where that was
fading out. He was, Oh, you want to hang out,
Let's go duck hunting, Let's go here, blah blah blah.
Black wide receivers love that guy. The offensive lineman, the
(32:52):
white guys who went hunting love that guy. Like he
had a very unique relatability. It's one of the things
I think that happened to Aaron Rodgers in a way
is he walked into a trap in Green Bay because
Aaron Rodgers isn't that guy. Wasn't that guy, couldn't be
that guy. But people were so used to that guy
and Fire. But there's only there are very few guys
like that, like a Terry Bradshaw, that type of guy
you know.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
We're just a few months out from the Tupac book
coming out, Why Tupac.
Speaker 4 (33:18):
Love. Tupac felt like there'd never been a definitive, definitive,
definitive interviewed six hundred and fifty people, dig fully into
his life, book written, I want to try something beyond sports,
and all my books have been sports, my career has
been sports, and I just thought, here's the guy. I'm
genuinely fascinated by, a guy whose music speaks to me,
and I thought, why not a white sports writer? You know,
(33:39):
why not? That's the one thing my agent said to me.
I'm gonna be honest. My agent's like, he's like, you know,
there's going to be some people are going to be like,
why a white sports writer? And I think it's a
fair question. And I just from the beginning, i'd been like,
because I'm fascinated by this guy, and there's a book
out there that I want to read that I haven't
seen yet, so I'm going to try writing it.
Speaker 6 (33:59):
When you say you interviewed six hundred and fifty people,
which I believe you obviously, Yeah, talk to me about
how much information of that six hundred and fifty interviews
you actually use or just use this cross referencing to
make sure that I am just it's so interesting to
me that you can go and go into that much
detail but take six hundred and fifty references for one book.
Speaker 4 (34:19):
Yeah, it drives me crazy. It's a so like example
I use a lot is like, all right, Tubac went
to the Baltimore Score with Performing Arts for two years.
That was his high school, and I got all the yearbooks, right,
So you go in there and you go name by
name through the yearbooks and you literally make a file
for everyone, not just a classmates, but everyone who is there, teachers, staff, janitors,
(34:41):
et cetera. And one by one you reach out to
these people and like, in a way, the best example
I use is like Brett Fire, Right, you work on
a Brett fire This this is my guiding principle in life. Actually,
as a journalist, Brett Fahre played all those years of football.
At some point there was a free agent running back
from Lehigh in training camp with the Packers. Right, he
(35:04):
was there for three wee. Brett Favre isn't going to
remember anything. He probably wouldn't even remember that guy existed.
Bob Jones from Lehigh but Bob Jones from Lehigh is
going to remember the one time Brett Farev walked up
to him and offered him a bag of pringles, Right,
Bob Jones is going to remember that for the rest
of his life. The free agent from Lehigh who's telling
that story at family reunions, barbecues, et cetera, for the
(35:26):
rest of his life. That's the same with Tupac. At
Baltimore School for the Arts, you find the one person
who's like, oh, yeah, I used to have lunch with
him on Tuesdays. He always drank blank or I was
in his class. So one thing I remember is I
always used to listen to this Kate Bush song blah
blah blah. So like, out of the six hundred and
fifty interviews, I probably quote three hundred of the people directly.
(35:48):
Of the information I get, like the ten thousand pages
of information, I probably used three percent, right, like in
the book, literally three percent. But even knowing it could
be someone could be like, blah blah blah blah blah, boring, boring, boring, boring.
You know, Tubac always used to drink diet pepsi bingo.
Like that little detail tells you something different than he
(36:08):
used to drink soda. He used to drink diet pepsi.
It tells you something about someone, So you're always just
looking for those little details, scouring the little details, if
that makes sense.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Totally.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I got two questions left for you with Tupac especially,
and by the way, you can pre order the book now.
Only God can judge me The Many Lives of Tupac,
but comes out October twenty first, so just a few
months away from that. The a lot of thoughts of Tupac,
and especially since he's been dead, it's easy to create
conspiracies around people who can't say the conspiracy is not true.
So one, is Tupac alive? Two, No, there are theories
(36:41):
that Tupac was playing the role of a straight rapper
but was actually a gay actor because you've seen like
clips of him when he was younger.
Speaker 5 (36:49):
Thoughts on both of those.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
He's not alive. He's dead that I can tell you
he was. It's interesting I interviewed I've interviewed multiple people
about Tubaca obviously, and you get into his sexuality, and
there's always been this interview that people cite when he
was in a tam high school in northern California and
he was a high school senior and he does this
very effeminate, flamboyant interview. I would say Tupaca was fluid,
(37:19):
sexually fluid to a certain degree. I don't know if
this is a term primarily straight, like if you look
at his later career, especially death Row, primarily straight or
would I say he was. I think he was probably.
I think in modern days he would probably go down
as by leaning towards straight, like more women than men,
but definitely had experiences in his life.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Yeah, the video is what I was thinking of, because
they show that everybody that has the case of you know,
Tupac was just playing a role or he was an
industry plant in the nineties and he was really just
a thespian an actor who was gay. Look at this
clip of him in high school, Like that's always what
they cite.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
Yeah, that annoys me. Actually, I mean Tubac was basically
he's a really interesting guy. Like actually, my brother said
to me the other day, he's like he's reading a
book and he's like, he reminds me of Tyler the Creator,
Like Tupac then reminds me a little of Tyler Creator
and I'm like, that's a pretty good comparison. Like Tupac
in a lot of ways, was a kid in the
Baltimore School for the Arts hallway, listening to Kate Bush
(38:20):
and Peter Gabriel, listening to Don McLain, writing poems all day,
writing love letters to his girlfriend, a streak of peroxide
down his flat top, his gumby haircut, with torn jeans
that he's spray painted like. He was a very artistic soul.
And I think what he became later on at Death
Row was kind of real. But I also think kind
of like what he needed to be at that point.
(38:42):
I think a lot of Tubac's life was being what
he needed to be in the moment to survive.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
You guys, check out the book per order now. Only
God can judge me the many lies of Tupac. It's
in the mail, or it's close to in the mail.
I'm ready to read it.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
I am too.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, so I'll get Matt my version when I'm done.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
I have a question, are you guys cool? My next book?
Actually I didn't tell you this, but I'll make it here.
It's it's called Living the Dream. Maccastle in the twenty
eighteen Detroit Lyons.
Speaker 5 (39:07):
I don't know if that was much of a dream
or a nightmare.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, that's more like a pamphlet. Huh, exactly, it's pretty short,
like a many you guys follow Jeff, Great, TikTok? Can
you give us one Can I ask you one more question? Jeff?
I know we're short, we're short on time. Will you
tell Matt? Because I know the story, but I don't
want to step on the story. Will you tell Matt
the story about your wife? I said pamphlet and it's
what kind of clicked in my head, and that's all
(39:34):
I want to say. Will you tell Matt the story
about your wife?
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Are you talking about my wife donating the kidney?
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Oh of course. So my wife, Catherine is a social
worker and five years ago she is in a She's
got love that tell this story actually, because she's such
a good person. She's into Starbucks out here in southern
California and she sees a flyer hanging up and it's
from a woman and she's like, my husband, blah blah
blah needs a kidney. He's been on tialysis for years.
(40:02):
We're looking for a match. My wife come to him
and she's like, uh, She's like, how crazy would it
be if I donated a kidney to a stranger? And
I'm like, knowing her, not that crazy. It's kind of
who she is. And she went in for all the
testing at UCLA. She was a match. She donated her
kidney to a stranger. Not only did she donate her
(40:23):
kidney a stranger. It's one of the best stories ever.
They've become some of our closest friends. We go every
year to their house for Christmas Eve with their family.
They come to our house for like Hanukah and Thanksgiving
a different events, and like, it's become this real bond.
And it's all because she saw this flyer. She donated
a kidney. It's one of the best stories.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
Human. Yeah, let alone just off a whim. Hey saw this.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Flyer change someone?
Speaker 6 (40:49):
I made a kidney? Yeah, and now you guys are
best friends. What a remarkable human, Jeff.
Speaker 4 (40:53):
We really appreciate that still married. She's still married a
sports writer despite that good jobs.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Well, I'm also surprised at how much pickup basketball you play.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
And I don't.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I don't believe in the jink, so I don't care.
I don't how you play and you're not like limping
around because I'm afraid to play because I'll pop an
achilles at any time doing anything.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
I am limping around, but not like.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Real limping like you guys. It seems like every week
you're playing pickup ball and I'm like, man, Peerlman just.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Goes the game isn't so good anymore. It's a lot
of down, back to the basket, you know, little pump faceball,
fake stuff like that. But yeah, I still play.
Speaker 5 (41:28):
I appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Jeff Perlman. You got to follow my TikTok. He's the
best and the book's coming out and if you're just
a sports fan and no more time. But his book
Showtime ended up being winning Time. So about the Lakers
was a great series which should have never been canceled.
Stupid COVID. One of the worst things about COVID other
than people dying. Obviously, that show was canceled because it
was an excellent show. And congratulations on everything. We really
(41:49):
appreciate the time.
Speaker 5 (41:50):
Jeff, Oh, thank you so much. Thanks Jeff.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Let's play a game, Kevin. What is the game called?
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Start, cut and bench?
Speaker 3 (42:14):
Oh it's just like f Mary kill.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yeah, pretty much football version of it.
Speaker 3 (42:17):
Yeah, got so start how about start bench cut?
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, I guess that.
Speaker 5 (42:24):
They can't even get to the bench.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
By the way, how do you say the game? And
I'm gonna do my hands so physically, But how do
you say this game rock paper scissors? Interesting because I
don't say it in that that that order.
Speaker 5 (42:33):
How do you say it paper rock scissors.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
I've never met anybody that says scissors, paper rock or no.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
One less paper rock scissors. For sure.
Speaker 3 (42:43):
I would say rock paper scissors. What would you say, Brandon?
You would say paper that's weird.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
I say rock rock, paper paper scissors.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Yeah. Yeah, what do you say? I said rock paper
sciss Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:54):
No, you said paper rocks. I don't know. Now you
said payeah, okay, yeah, I would say paper rock scissors.
What are we gonna play? Let's do Let's say let's
do paper rock scissors.
Speaker 5 (43:04):
Perfect, that's what would say?
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Play start bench cut?
Speaker 5 (43:06):
Okay, start bench cut?
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Before we get to start bench cut. What do you
call those things at the movies? They're run before the
movie starts previous, got it? What do you call them trailers?
Speaker 5 (43:19):
Well?
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I don't call them trailers, but there is a large
contingent of people who call them trailers, the people in
the biz or the people I don't know. The two
people I know are from the Midwest.
Speaker 6 (43:30):
So they refer to them as, Oh, I'm gonna get
there early and watch the trail.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
Trailers because they are trailers. But I would say previews, previous.
What do you call what do you call if you're
gonna go get a soda from the gas station, what
do you call it?
Speaker 5 (43:44):
I don't call it a pop. I call it a soda.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
You would even call it a soda. See what we
call everything was a coke. I'm from, Everything was a coke.
Speaker 5 (43:51):
Yeah, that was the weird part.
Speaker 6 (43:52):
Because my family, my cousins and stuff grew up in Ohio.
Speaker 5 (43:57):
They either called it a coke or a pop.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
And it was we always said so in Minesta. For
me now because I've had to learn to Ada to
the just not have a super distinct Southern dialect.
Speaker 5 (44:09):
Yeah, because a coke you could still say a coke
where you're from. It could be a.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Sprite, Oh for sure. It almost was never the actual
Coca Cola product. Hey, what do you want to drink?
Speaker 5 (44:19):
Give me a coke? What kind mark pepper? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Interesting anyway, just vernacular exercise.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Little regional thing there.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
Okay, so the game is called.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Start bench cut.
Speaker 3 (44:30):
Start, start bench scissors starts.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah, so you gotta start one. You got a bench
one and you gotta cut one. I'm gonna go through
five colleges.
Speaker 4 (44:37):
Now.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
These are the players quarterbacks in their college days, not NFL,
just when they were in college playing for these programs.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
Okay, we'll take turns going first. Okay, so first on
the first one, all right?
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Number one is Oklahoma Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield, and Caleb Williams.
Speaker 5 (44:54):
Okay, I'm going to start. Did all three one? Yes? Wow?
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Because I started to go, well, Caleb? Want to they
all three?
Speaker 5 (45:05):
He won the Heisman.
Speaker 6 (45:06):
Start Kyler Murray. Now, oh only, but we're talking about
when they're in college college.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (45:12):
Start Kyler Murray, bench, Baker Mayfield, and cut my boy Williams.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Okay, I'm going to start Baker Mayfield, and I'm gonna
tell you why the dude was a walk on twice. Yeah,
he was awesome, and because all three of these guys
are elite, which is what makes the game hard and fun.
The fact that he was a walk on at Tech
and went over to Oklahoma and did the same freaking thing.
(45:41):
And didn't Kyler wait on Baker Mayfield to graduate before
he even got to start. Yeah, Like Baker stayed in
I think an extra year or two and Kyler just
stayed in sat and then balled out. I'm going to go.
I'm going to start Baker, okay, although I'm gonna have
to pay him more nil money probably than the other
two because he had a big, bigger personality than the
(46:02):
other two in personalities. Really that plus twent want equals
in il il uh. So Baker, I'm gonna bench Kyler
just like in the old days.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
Yes, and then I'm.
Speaker 3 (46:14):
Gonna cut Caleb, who didn't play on the team when
he was like.
Speaker 5 (46:16):
Four, well he was only he was only there also
for like a year.
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Yeah, but he bawled out when he came in for Rattler.
Speaker 5 (46:22):
Yeah right, he did. He bawled out and he left
for this coach. But he left. Yeah, so I mean
the cut that he kind of cut himself.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
He did win the freaking Heisman, though, It's tough because.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
All U I see though, Yeah, yeah, it's pretty amazing
the heisman.
Speaker 3 (46:35):
I know you don't count of you can't count as us,
I think, he said.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
College he did.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah, yeah, but for the but he he was at
Oklahoma technically techal you know, so if they're all on
the same team, and yeah, he won the Heisman, just.
Speaker 5 (46:47):
Not out all right? What else? Right?
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Number two?
Speaker 5 (46:49):
I'll go that one.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
Florida, Danny Warfel, Tim Tebow and Rex Grossman.
Speaker 3 (46:54):
Okay, I'm going Tebow number one, yea, without a doubt.
And speaking of which, in il money you got, we
have none left after Baker, but I'm talking about we
are deep in debt, deep in yeah with t BO
and he's donating at all too, like we just yeah,
we got Yeah, babies are getting circumcised in every country.
(47:15):
So I'm going t Bow at one. And you had
to Worfle on who Grossman?
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Rex Grossman?
Speaker 6 (47:25):
Did Warflee win a national championships there with with Florida?
Speaker 5 (47:30):
But uh, I believe he did.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
You should fact check me on this, yep, because I
believe the old ball coat. I mean that that was all.
I'm gonna go Warful. I'm just going from memory though,
like who do I remember more playing?
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, ninety six they wanted title, right, they want it.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, I'm gonna go Warful and then Grossman.
Speaker 5 (47:51):
But Grossman. I don't know Grossman was. He's so good.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
I know I'm letting his NFL days, I know, which
is unfair because Warfle didn't have the run Grossman had
in the NFL. But because we didn't see him as much,
we don't think of him being terrible.
Speaker 5 (48:05):
Because Grossman with the Bears went to the super Bowl.
Speaker 3 (48:07):
Yes, but I'm telling you the Grossman in my mind,
Grossman the Bears went to the super Bowl in lieu
of their defense is in spite of Grossman. Yeah, And
it's not fair because that's not true. But I'm gonna
go Warful then Grossman.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
I'm gonna do the exact SAME's. I mean, Warful won
a national championship. Tim Tebow's Tim Tebow the next coming,
and Rex Grossman was an outstanding quarterback in college. But
between those two, that's where I'm going.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
The negative association I have with Grossman is totally unfair,
though it is. It is he gets a bad rap yep.
And because and I'm gonna tell you what else is unfair.
I think a Grossman with the Bears, and I also
think of Mitch Trubisky with the Bears, who had a
lot of hypeen didn't play, so then I associate associate.
Speaker 5 (48:53):
Those two together.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
So then I feel worse about Grossman because I feel
like he's Mitch Trubisky and they picked him over Mahomes.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Like this is my mind goes, oh wow, Yeah, that's
able Grossman compared to my Homes.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Yeah, all three, You're awesome.
Speaker 5 (49:05):
A right next up?
Speaker 2 (49:06):
Okay, Oregon. Here you got Marcus Mariota, Justin Herbert, and
Joey Harrington.
Speaker 6 (49:11):
Okay, I'm going with Marcus Mariota. Start Joey Harrington bench,
and I'm going with Justin Herbert.
Speaker 5 (49:22):
Cut.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
I'm gonna go the same recency bias maybe a bit here,
but I'm also the reason I'm gonna go with it
starts with Mariota. I remember Marioda, we.
Speaker 5 (49:32):
Were up there. There, there's a whole facility. It's the most
amazing facility ever.
Speaker 6 (49:36):
It's like the little Island, yes, crazy Island, with all
of his high school teammates and everything there.
Speaker 5 (49:40):
He's a god.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
And Joey Harrington was on the cover of College Football
back in the day PlayStation, so that automatically gets him
on the team.
Speaker 5 (49:46):
Can you on the team? The billboard that they had
for his high school Trophy in New York, right, they
put up in New York. Yeah, they put it up
in New York. It was just Joe super Tall, super Tall.
That was it.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
Okay, we're the same on that one. Give us another one.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Okay, Texas here you got Vince Young, Nune eliminate them all.
Goldon McCloy, Vince Young and Chris Simms.
Speaker 5 (50:05):
Just as you said.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
So, Yeah, the Chris Simms issue that I have is
I was there whenever it was Sims and apple White,
and Sims was brought in as the big five star,
but apple White was still winning, and it was constant
Who's going to start, and there was like drama and
apple got hurt and so that I was just annoyed
by the whole situation. Sims is third.
Speaker 5 (50:28):
You don't like the controversy.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
I don't like Texas, and so that that made me.
Vince Young did win a national championship, Yes, yes, sorry
against your boys.
Speaker 6 (50:41):
I know that was that was probably the greatest, maybe
one of probably the greatest college football game of all time.
Speaker 5 (50:47):
Yeah, I was.
Speaker 6 (50:48):
I was living in winners just in that game. Reggie Bush,
Matt Lionert and did Vince Young. He lost the line
he lost the line.
Speaker 3 (50:57):
But also USC they had Bush, they had thunder and lightning.
Speaker 6 (51:02):
Reggie Berry, that Wayne Jared crazy, Mike Williams.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
I'm gonna go Vince Young, then Colt McCoy and Vince
gets it because of it. But Vince was like Cam Newton,
unstopped you as an absolute fan of nature. He was,
and we again, I'm not associated the NFL. I shouldn't
do anything.
Speaker 5 (51:21):
NFL dual threat quarterback everything.
Speaker 3 (51:23):
Yeah, Vince Young, Colt McCoy and Chris Sims.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
You two, Matt, same thing, same thing, all right, last
one here USC boom, Okay, we got Carson Palmer, Matt
Lioner and our boy Mediccastle.
Speaker 5 (51:35):
Are we talking just about college? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (51:37):
Can we can we kill? Can we put the kill
one back in and.
Speaker 5 (51:41):
Get Well, I'm cutting liner because that means I'm playing.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
That's funny, that's funny.
Speaker 6 (51:47):
All right, Well, if we're talking just about college, I
mean I played with all these dudes. Seapawk is the
most physically impressive human I've ever been around. Before we
called him seapowk Carson Palmer special number one draft pick.
Speaker 3 (52:04):
Overall physically one, because I don't think of him.
Speaker 6 (52:06):
He's six five barrel chested, has an absolute cannon for
an arm. Footwork like he's six', one like his feet
were just dynamic when it talked about perfect footwork drop,
backs you, know like with those old clips that you
see if akemn just in. Rhythm this guy had it.
All and not only.
Speaker 5 (52:23):
THAT i think he ran a four or five or
six coming.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Out i'm glad you said, that because did you guys
think of him as like a, superior as a superior. Quarterback,
yes but obviously we didn't know him.
Speaker 5 (52:35):
Arms he was a freak. Out that's.
Speaker 3 (52:37):
CRAZY i didn't know that or six Five. Wow tell
you he's, white so he seems slow and he's a,
quarterback so he seems, slow.
Speaker 2 (52:45):
And he's stands super. Tall so, yeah it's that.
Speaker 6 (52:48):
Big and he was at a time where us he
was struggling and kind of brought us back into, prominence
like when his senior, year when he came back and
made the decision to come. Back we went to The
Orange bowl and we BEAT i think it Was iowa
for the first First Orange bowl. Victory that's really what
Set Pete carroll up in that kind of. Dynasty but
(53:09):
he took the program to the next. Level So i'm
gonna go With Carson. PALMER i like HOW i stayed the,
first but you're gonna have to go With Matt. Leonard Obviously,
heisman both those Guys Heisman trophy, winners But matt won
what two national championships back to. Back and THEN i,
MEAN i would still like to be on the, team but,
obviously if we've got to have a spot for we
got a spot for you. Back thanks Coach. Carol that's
(53:35):
exactly WHAT i came here. For go get my head beat.
Speaker 3 (53:37):
In, YEAH i GUESS i gotta go with the same
out of, loyalty, though you know, What i'm gonna.
Speaker 5 (53:42):
Put castle in my back.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
Up, yeah the guy did great. Work it's a back
up later in. Life you, know we can't go. There
but in the verse two it.
Speaker 5 (53:48):
Was a starter. Too, okay don't get don't kid. Yourself that's.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right thank you guys for. Listening here's WHAT i can't
wait for. FOOTBALL i know we've done this podcast now
for months and months without any. Football we've gone through
the absolute Heart we started what In, December, yeah like
when it was over except for like the Super.
Speaker 6 (54:05):
Bowl we we got to talk about the playoffs with
The Super, bowl and then it was just off season.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
Minutia we have just been grinding through.
Speaker 5 (54:11):
It i'm ready to talk about real football next.
Speaker 6 (54:16):
Week next, week the twenty second through the twenty, Fourth
so we've got four teams a day for three days.
Straight it'll be. Fun, well maybe more than. That how
many teams do they, have?
Speaker 5 (54:26):
Now what do you? Mean, oh you mean like they
take the?
Speaker 6 (54:28):
Podium what they take the Pum so we'll do interviews
on the, Side so what every every big network LIKE,
nbccbs whoever Had, fox they'll all have their own space
and rooms set, up so you'll come in and they'll
do individual interviews with coaches. PLAYERS i might do something
on the side for their socials to talk to some
(54:48):
of the quarterbacks and do all, that and then it's
just about interactions with the coaches on the. Field and
then they'll go up and they'll they've got ABOUT i
think five ten minutes on the podium and kind of
talk about their, program promote their, program give us kind
of their feelings about this upcoming. Season it might be,
schedule and then at night they'll have some dinners that
you get to go to and once again rub elbows
(55:10):
with these guys and kind of talk to them and
get to know them a little bit.
Speaker 5 (55:12):
More.
Speaker 6 (55:12):
So it's it's a fun time and it's also a
great kickoff of the.
Speaker 5 (55:16):
Season it's probably.
Speaker 3 (55:17):
Fun to go in, too like other sports, people probably
other ex.
Speaker 5 (55:22):
Players, yeah it's a. Blast it's a. Blast so it's,
uh it's three.
Speaker 6 (55:26):
Days it's like truly the kickoff to get going for college.
Football and then it starts at the end OF uh
Into august's last.
Speaker 5 (55:35):
Week august is our first. Game passed. Along, HELLO i
got two bros.
Speaker 3 (55:39):
Coaching who you Got Barry, Odue Arry, oda that's my,
dude new.
Speaker 5 (55:43):
Coach he was just here a few weeks. Ago i'm
excited his daughter to Meet Lanny. WILSON i remember you saying, That,
yeah he's the. Best and Then Brett.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Bilamaila those are my.
Speaker 5 (55:53):
Dudes he's a. Study we talked about him last.
Speaker 3 (55:55):
Week then my warm. Regards, okay that's, It thank you,
Guys we'll see you next. Week that's my. Castle that's, Kickoff.
Kevin that Is Brandon ray doing all the. Video thanks
To Jeff. Pearlman be sure if you like the idea
of his two point booker any of his other books
that he is such a great. Writer check it out
and go To Jeff peerlman dot com.
Speaker 5 (56:12):
Or just go to a social and you'll see it all.
There I'm Bobby.
Speaker 3 (56:14):
Bones we've had lots to, say so you guys.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
Lots to say With Bobby bones And Matt castle is
a production of THE nfl And iHeart. Podcasts for more
podcasts From, iHeartRadio visit The iHeartRadio, App Apple, podcasts or
wherever you get your.
Speaker 5 (56:32):
Podcasts
Hosts And Creators
Bobby Bones
Amy Brown
Lunchbox
Eddie Garcia
Morgan Huelsman
Raymundo
Mike D
Abby Anderson
Scuba Steve
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