April 29, 2025 • 52 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci dive in with the Yankees changing closers after just 8 innings for Devin Williams. Joe explains the timing and reasoning for making such an early switch. Tom is floored by the start of the Rockies and sees a trend with bad teams getting worse. We switch gears to soccer and a new head coach doing things a bit differently and Joe loves it! What happened in baseball that's more rare than a perfect game? Plus, how long will it take for the Dodgers to get back on track?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Therey, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Joe, how you doing. We've got one month of this
season in the books already.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm doing well, Tommy, And today is the big day
down here in Tampa, because we're going to start heading north,
taking a drive back up to the Holy Land, which
would be Pennsylvania, and then back to sugar Loaf and
have that one of those beautiful, glorious Pennsylvania summers. You're
very close in New Jersey is an extension of Pennsylvania,
so you know what that feels like. And I'm eager
(00:48):
about this. I'm very very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, just for you, we finally rolled out springtime. It's
taken a while day here, but it does feel like good.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Time a year.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But hey, hey Joe, speaking of springtime, it wasn't long
before Devin Williams, the closer from the New York Yankees,
lost his job.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
We barely got into not even out of April.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
He just pitched ten games, only eight innings, and Aaron
Boone said, you know what, let's move.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You back up, take you out of that closer's role.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want to talk to you, Joe, about the manager's
role in this when you make this kind of decision.
He's obviously new to the Yankees after the trade from Milwaukee,
very small sample size, it was obvious to see how
he was struggling, especially with fastball command. His velocity was
down a tick, but he basically just could not throw
his fastball where he wanted to and just has not
(01:40):
been getting swings and misses.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So take me through the process here, Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
If you're a manager, you're seeing a guy first year
with the team scuffling a little bit here, but he's
only got eight innings, and you say, you know what,
let's back you up and keep you out of that role.
What goes into that thought process?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
That is a tight rope because I've been watching it.
I've actually seen him pitch several times on TV Williams,
and he has not been good. He's not looked anything
like he had in the past. And I was the
last several years and I was wondering how much the
Alonzo home run has impacted him. I really I was
wondering that because he's just he's just not attacking like
he had in the past. He's not getting ahead and counts,
(02:18):
which then puts that change up whatever he wants to
call it. Really in the driver's heat, it just did
not look normal. And beyond that, just the facial expressions.
Watching from the you know, I've talked about this all
the time. Pitching coach talks to him, bullpen coach talks
to him, manager speaks with him, and you're just finding
no confidence and you just think that maybe if I
(02:40):
keep throwing them out there Chuckagan at worse as opposed
to better, like you're saying a really fine line right
here when to do this if you, in fact you're
going to do it. But man, from what I was
seeing the way he was pitching, it's almost like Bednar
with Pittsburgh. I mean, I'm a big fan of Lafia
kid last year. I just did not like the way
his shoulder was working. It seemed like something might have
been bothering him. And after being like lights out, he's
(03:03):
not been lights out, and eventually they took him out,
but it took them longer to do that. Watching Williams
short the way, he just doesn't look comfortable throwing the
baseball and he has zero confidence. So I understand this
one was look to be rather quick and difficult. But
from my perspective watching it, I thought, Okay, I get this,
(03:24):
and the conversation's got to be like straightforward. Listen, this
is going to be temporary. We want you to get
your feedback on the ground, get that confident swagger. You
need a couple like quick innings like this is This
is where the new rules make it somewhat more difficult.
A three batter minimum I would for me in the
past easily with two outs in an inning. Just bring
(03:48):
him in to get the third out in an inning,
as opposed to having to take him out of this role.
See if you can get him like two outs in
an inning or one out in an inning, and then
get him out and move this thing along. Now you
could do that as the last out of an inning.
I get that. I understand that. But just to able
to have this like freedom to get him in and
get him out, that's what I would say to the
pitching coast, get him in and get him out to
(04:09):
try to rebuild his confidence. So long answer, I think
I understand this one. I didn't like the way he
looked either, and he went one, two, three. I guess
yesterday in a supporting role as opposed to closing, and
so I think that's all good and he'll he'll be back.
I mean, the guy is that talented. But I'm telling you, man,
the look on his face and the way he's throwing
the ball, I get it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, and factor in here in New York, right, Yeah, absolutely,
come into the big market. You know, the fans are
starting to chant we want Weaver when he's out there.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right when you get traded to New York or.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You sign a free agent contract with New York, you
really have to hit the ground running, and it's very
difficult if you start from behind. You have to win
the fans over very quickly in New York. I'm not
saying that's bothering him, but it would be a natural
thing if it did, because he's never faced that kind
of scrutiny before.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Not to say he can't handle it, but it is
a new environment for him.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
The other thing I want to ask you about was
pictures like that who or two pitch pitchers? Essentially, you know,
if they don't have command of one pitch, they're vulnerable.
We're seeing that with Emmanuel class with Cleveland where the
location of the cutter just is not the same. You know,
he'd like to elevate that, maybe even run it in
on radies.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Everything now is down and the way the.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Slider cutter, Paul Seawall, Tanner, Scott Josh Hater sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
You know Craig Kimberrell was this way.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
If he didn't land his curve ball, he was very
vulnerable because you're only a two pitch guy, and if
a hitter is able to take away one, well, the
math is in the favor of the hitter at that point.
What do you see with guys, especially closers, who are
two pitch guys, Because to me, today's game is so
much about having a menu of pitches that you can
(05:50):
throw to both right handed and left handed hitters. Pitchers,
you know, are basically now different pitchers basically who they face,
whether it's a ready or.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Left in the box.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And if you a hitter just has a two pitch guy,
now that seems unusual. And if you've got this off,
great you can blow guys away. But the permutations obviously
are a lot less.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I still love to tried and true fastball command first.
I think a lot of the other pitches, the out pitches,
the strikeout pitch, the one that gets your run around
third less than two outs, you're going to be able
to strike somebody out when you want to. I still think,
like you talked about Kimberle I had him for a
bit as an example. Are you watching Williams right now? Vedno,
(06:29):
when I was watching him on the tube, that they
have these other really good pitches, but you got to
get to it where the hitter is going to be
more enticed to swing at a pitch that begins as
a striking that becomes a ball. But if you're constantly
unable to throw your fastball for a strike and get
to more advantageous councils, becomes difficult. I just we talked
about it too. You You brought it up several times
about how the league is so trending to becoming a
(06:52):
non fastball situation where the breaking ball becomes paramount, and
all of a sudden, there's even more emphasis on that now.
On the other hand, I just just flip that sometimes,
you know, without the fastball command I've had that, I
want them to go to the breaking ball on the
two and zero countra three to one count, It just
depends on the individual. All these things are individual based
on the pitcher. But I I still love to see
(07:17):
a major league pitcher commands fastball, being able to locate
that to the point where you could throw it and
it might get hit, it might be put in play,
but not a damaging kind of a way to get
to your other pitches. I'd have to watch these guys
more closely to really totally understand what I'm seeing with
that fastball versus that other pitch. But it's still I
(07:38):
still believe in the fastball command location, and everything works
off of that. Well.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Speaking of getting off to slow starts, Joe, we've got
to talk about our friend Buddy Black and the Colorado Rockies.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
The Rockies are off to a four and twenty four start,
four and twenty four. It's the worst start in modern
history in the National League. Their batting average is to twelve,
their urn run average is five point three six.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Their starters have two wins.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Imagine that your starters go to the mound twenty eight
times they walk out of there with just two wins.
This is a challenge for Buddy Black, as you know,
and it's coming off seasons of one hundred and three
and one hundred and one losses, the record Rockies had
never lost one hundred games until two years ago. Now
it looks almost assuredly like they're doing it for a
third straight year. They've already taken away his hitting coach,
(08:35):
Hensley Mullins, and they put back Clint Hurdle in that role.
I had been working in the front office. Put yourself
in Buddy Black's shoes, Joe, where do you go from
here after a four and twenty four start, after two
consecutive one hundred lost seasons.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Dude, I don't even know that. I've not been confronted
with that. You know, kind of was could have been
with the Devil Rays we went lost a hundred, then
close to one hundred, but then the next year after
that we ended up being a World Series team. There's
so much to digest there. I mean, I've been watching
PEPPI and I are so close. I really haven't spoken
(09:11):
to him. I probably should give him a blast, try
to pick him up. I didn't know about the hitting
coach with Hemsley and then Clint coming back, and I
wasn't aware of that. Those those are all band aids.
I think you know the switching of the coach right now.
That happens all the time. Coordinators always get fired and
new coordinator comes in, always looking for this different voice.
(09:31):
But it really comes down to the players. Their ability level, truly,
their ability to make adjustments, fight through difficult moments. I
want to believe they are major league players. And again
I haven't really watched their team because I don't know
the exact talent level of this group. But one hundred
hundred losses and now this which on their way, it's
a tough one. I for me, it's like you'd like
(09:52):
to get a hold of that. I've been involved in
that once as a minor league coordinator. Lake elson Or
got off. There's this kind of a start and I
had a long talk with the owner at that time
because I was the I was running the minor leagues,
and says, by the end of the season, they're going
to be a playoff team. They missed by one game,
and they missed by one game because what I did
is I went and spent like two or three weeks
(10:12):
with this team only I just had to get them
out of the hole. Because Lake elson Or was that
big part of our structure at that time. I always
go back to fundamentals when you're faced with the situation
like this. For me, it's about extra work with a group,
not just individually, and just start really reprocessing everything we
(10:33):
talked about in camp and really stressing again the importance
of playing catch, the importance of being in the right
place at the right time, and you're at bats, the
moving the ball with two strikes, accepting your walks. I
just go back to fundamentals, and I will just break
it down almost like another spring training. Guys might not
like it, but you're looking at the record. You got
to say, boys, we got to do something about this.
(10:54):
So for me, when you get to this point, you
go back to ground zero and you start building it
back up. Old line might get old, it might be
people don't like here, but it is about one day
at a time, and you've got to take that kind
of approach. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I don't know what the answer is here.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
We all know that it's difficult to win in Colorado,
probably harder to win there than anybody else because you're
playing a different ballgame at altitude, and you're playing a
different game every time you go on the road. So
the hitters and pitchers are always going back and forth adjusting,
especially on the spin.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Of a breaking ball and the break of a breaking ball.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
It's going to.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Break less at altitude.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So the Rocky hitters get on the road and all
of a sudden, that ball's moving a lot more than
they're used to. After a seven game, eight game homestand
they've lost thirteen consecutive road games. As ties of franchise record,
they won stretch where the first time at franchise history,
shut out three consecutive games by the Padres. They haven't
(11:48):
won two straight games since lass September, the middle of
last September. I don't know what you do about the
offensive problems that are inherent in Colorado. Of course they've
had teams before that match the ball. But Joe, there's
something here that's broken offensively in Colorado. They have a
couple of good offensive players. Doyle the centerfielder, Tovar the shortstop.
(12:08):
You know, Jordan Beck the outfielder, looks like he's got
a decent stick. But you know, someone like Ryan McMahon
has gone backward, hasn't really developed at the big league level.
We thought he was going to be a big time player,
So I don't know how you teach hitting at altitude
because it is so different, And it's just this Rockies
team should not be hitting to twelve. There's a ton
(12:28):
of swing and miss. They swing a miss basically more
than any team in baseball. You've got to have a
better offensive team. It's even with accepting the fact that
they're adjusting back and forth, it's too much of a
hitter's park for this team to be hitting to twelve
and not putting the ball in play. So something's fundamentally
wrong structurally with the way they're developing hitters because they
(12:48):
don't sign a lot of outside talent. Right they're not
a big free agent team. They actually don't do a
lot of the trade deadline either. It's very internal with
the way they run things. But I think systematically, Joe,
they've got to take a look at what's broken here.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
This is a this is a classic for the tried
and true. Now again, I don't know we're talking, and
you just mentioned we don't know exactly what their philosophy is,
and I don't know the talent level necessarily there, But
obviously to me, it's about it's just about the fundamental
tried and true stuff. It's about choking up a two strike.
It's about looking away first. It's about keeping your fastball
swing loaded and try to take advantage. Maybe the ball's
(13:24):
not going over the wall, but they got enormous gaps
and big lines. I mean, there's a lot of places
to set a ball down there in the outfield, and
it comes down to contact. I've been through it. I
was challenged in the minor leagues too. There was an
epidemic of striking out in the late eighties, and the
challenge was to get your hitters to not strike out
as often and accept more walks. And that's what I did.
I mean, I came up with the b hack, the
(13:46):
two strike approach. And again, to what extent it's being
profited to these guys or mentioned to these fellas, I
don't know. But that's the thing that we've talked about
and how home runs win games, and we've talked about this,
and my response to that is, who has really tried
to win it outside out of the home run, who
has really tried to move the ball? No pictures are
(14:06):
thrown harder. I get all that stuff. However, how much
of this other game is being nurtured and as opposed
to just trying to lift the ball swing as hard
as you can, Colorado being a launching pan that it is.
But obviously it's not for these guys. It's just for
me it would be somewhat easy and then to change
the methods. But we talked about this also before when
(14:28):
I managed in the middle and these are just experiences.
But we had the same kind of a situation at
home Man. The ball flew, it was windy, the fences
were low, it was just a real hitters haven, and
you go to then you go to Beaumont, San Antonio,
Little Rock, Shreveport, Tulsa, where the ball did not carry.
So the couple of days before we went on the road,
(14:49):
I would have no if you at the top of
the batting tunnel the turtle at home plate hit that drought,
you just had to be line drives and hard ground balls.
I mean, it's just, you know, just repetition of thought.
I to me, it's just got to be a basic situation.
You've got to fly back to basics and keep preaching
it until it starts working, because otherwise four twenty two
(15:10):
is not going to turn into anything good.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I just can't see it, No, I mean, listen, it's
hard to imagine that this team is not once again
going well over one hundred losses, which brings me finally
to this point. Joe teams now seem to be not
as bad, but there's more teams that are just horribly bad.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right since the expansion era, in the one hundred and
sixty two game schedule, in the first fifty years of that,
there were seven teams that lost one hundred and ten games.
The Rockies look like they will be the seventh team
just in the last seven years to lose one hundred
and ten games. So teams are just cratering. I think
(15:52):
there's this idea.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I don't want to say they're not trying, Joe, but
they feel like if they're not on a place on
a winning curve where they can go for a playoff spot,
they just ride it out being like horribly bad and
not trying to you know, like they don't want to
lose ninety games, you might as well lose one hundred
and ten. It's really not a good thing for the game,
and we're not seeing small market teams do this, by
(16:14):
the way, obviously the White Sox did it last year.
Teams like the Tigers and the Orioles have done it
as well, but seven teams in the last seven years
losing one hundred and ten games, after fifty years went
by with only seven. It's just it's not a good
look for the game.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
It's not And you know, everybody's working from the same process.
Everybody trying to kind of wants to be the same.
And you can't be like the Dodgers. If you're Colorado,
you want to be you want to win that many games,
but you can't do it the same way these other teams,
the White Sox, whomever. You can't just turn that thing,
the battleship on a dime and win the same number
(16:53):
of games that these guys are just based on their finances,
and then beyond that they just at the talent level.
I mean the acquisitional process, which is absolutely tied into
the amount of money you're willing to spend. There they
go hand in hand. I long story again, answer to
I believe the process needs to be changed, and I
believe you can't analytically attempt to play the same game
(17:16):
as the Dodgers are going to play based on their personnel.
You just have to have to concede and maybe go
rogue a little bit from the industry and attempt to
play a different style of game, a more like tack
oriented game, a more contact oriented game, a more fundamental
game where you don't make mistakes on defense. Again, we're
talking about pitchers being able to look at your fastball.
(17:38):
I've got to be in the right spot at the
right time. You just have to take it in a
different direction. Now, of course, it's always going to come
down to talent. Whoever has the better talent should normally
win a lot more games in the group that does not.
But if you are lacking the quality of depth of talent,
necessarily that's necessary. Really focus on a different process, focus
(17:58):
on a different method, beat them at a different game
that they're not used to playing, apply pressure in different
in areas that they're not used to having to defend against.
But all these groups still, they're so analytically married to
the same methods within each organization that nobody wants to
go rogue and try a different method of the game.
So for me, the Rockies, I would just you know,
(18:19):
you got to look like almost an a ball club
doing all kinds of different things on a nightly basis
until you hit til you finally find your groove, and
it's got to be like on a different mental level,
a different approach, et cetera. The definition of insanity right
doing the same thing over and over again. So I'm
just looking for that one team or two organizations that
(18:40):
are going to finally say you know enough of this
to taking component not caring if you lose. Come on,
I mean, what about your fans, what about like the
integrity of the game, the best interest of the game.
I can't stand that part of what's the culture of
our industry right now? That really bothers me a lot.
So do something differently, go back to the basics. Play
(19:02):
the game of baseball every night as well as you
possibly can, and don't try to go toe to toe
with people that may be more physically talented in a sense,
but that does not mean you can't beat them on
a given night.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Spoken by somebody who actually did it with the Rays
up against those big boys in the Ale least the
Red Sox and the Yankees and Joe. I'm not sure
if you're a soccer fan, but I got to talk
about and we'll do this after this break right here
on the book of Joe pretty much the Joe Madden
of the Premier League just won the title over there.
(19:36):
We'll talk about that right after this. Welcome back to
the Book of Joe podcasts Joe, before we get to
the Premier League. I thought this was really interesting where
jose L Tuvey, of course he's moved from second base
(19:58):
to left field, went to his manager, Joe Espada, and
said he'd rather move out of the lead off spot.
Now he's hit lead off for years and years and
been more of the best leadoff hitters in the game,
and he moved down to the number two spot in
the lineup. The reasoning this is really interesting, and coming
out of left field, he's got farther to run back
to the dugout and he felt really rushed for his
(20:20):
first at bat. So h Payny of the shortstop has
been playing with hitting well, so now he's the leadoff
guy in Altuve is the number two hitter, so you
can get time to get himself ready for that first
ay b.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It is and I've hit catchers in the leadoff spot.
You know, they have to change gear, get in and
out all that kind of stuff. I don't know that
I've ever had anybody make that request to me based
on that particular reason. It's first that bat I understand that.
It's what happens like in the third or fourth any
when you come up, you're going to lead off any
of his stuff running from left field. I don't know.
(20:54):
It's just something. Maybe he wasn't doing as well in
his first at bats and so all of a sudden,
maybe he thought of this or somebody brought it to
his attention. I don't know. I I do hate the
feeling of being right. I'm not going to argue with
that whatsoever. In anything, I hate that feeling. So maybe
that probably is accurate. But I would say that the
opinion does not necessarily work out, and as I'll t
(21:16):
be like, if he really gets hot, I think it
could switch back to what it had been.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So I mentioned the Premier League. Do you follow soccer, Joe,
Premier League? I don't. I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I'll be honest in return.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I do not, Okay, but I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I'm always interested in methodologies and especially teaching and coaching.
It was interesting because Liverpool went out they needed a
new manager last year, head coach as it were, and
they actually ran an internal data testing system. They had
a bunch of criteria where they're looking for somebody with
a very unique style of play. They were looking for
(21:51):
somebody who would keep their players healthy, which is super
important any sport, but especially in soccer. So anyway, they
wound up after this exhaustive search using a lot of
analytics to find a guy with Arnie Slott and he
moves in. Actually, Fenway Sports is the group that owns
this Liverpool teams. Of course they also owned the Boston
(22:12):
Red Sox. And he comes in and he changed a
lot of things, a lot of the so called soft skills.
I mean, for instance, he put a coffee bar in
the clubhouse they took from the Italian League, where players
would come in and hang out early and stayed late
around the coffee bar, just talking about yes, their game,
(22:32):
the practice, whatever, but installing or at least trying to
improve camaraderie.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
They had a.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
History there where the team when they were playing at home,
everybody would go to a hotel. By the way, the
name of the hotel was the Titanic Hotel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's probably not a good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Omen and Arn't thought, you know what, let these guys
stay at home sleep in their own beds. We got
rid of the the night before home matches having guys
go to a hotel. So he did a lot of
these things and the players all jelled. He also has
this method that he's got body wake ups before games
where guys will go through breathing exercises and meditations and
(23:11):
will do this as a group. He also is big
on meetings and especially with video. Like the course of
a game, he will he has an assistant by him
and I'll just say clip, meaning take that play and
take that clip, and I'm going to address this with
that player, even as soon as halftime if it's appropriate,
(23:31):
or after the game, or anytime he has these meetings,
he rolls out these clips and he says, here's what
you did, here's where you need to be. Basically, Liverpool
surprised everybody. This guy's first year and it happens very rarely.
First year manager goes in there and they win the title.
But I like the fact that they empowered, aren't slot
once they hired him to basically install his own system,
(23:53):
change some of the methodologies.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And it worked right away. I love all that, but
I thought.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Of you, Joe Matt, because you know, he wasn't afraid
to do things. Yes, maybe in a different way, not
new to him, but maybe new to what Liverpool had
been doing.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Well, he definitely knows what he knows. I mean, he's
had some experience. Obviously, he studied it very intently. He
probably has been observing what everybody else has been doing
and realizing there's these just these these subtle, different ways
to make changes that are going to appeal to the players.
That it just really comes down to like culture, like
(24:29):
you're saying, bringing groups together the latter day postgame beer
is now the cappuccino. Things like that are the pregame.
I like all of that. Absolutely, you knew that I
would like that. I think it's a great idea. And
when you do do that that way and really understand
why you're doing it, it's not like he's just reaching
into a bag of tricks and all of a sudden,
(24:49):
like what's going to come out next, just haphazardly. He knows,
he knows what's in that bag, and he's just pulling
different things out at different times, and the players are
reacting to it. It's just different and the only thing
is up all the meetings. But I like the idea
of pull a video clip and playing back a video clip.
I'm good with that. But overall it's just refreshing to
(25:10):
these players, I'm sure. But it just sounds to me
like this guy premeditated. He's thought these things out in advance.
There's certain things that he's seen that are kind of
accepted practices, even right down to the meditation, which we
believer in, and the stuff that everybody else is doing
did not resonate with him, and he thought it all
the way through and here comes some new and different
(25:32):
thoughts that to me, it sounds like it's a lot
about mind, the mental part of the game over the
physical part of the game. Watch what we're doing. He's
talking about, like I said, bringing the group together, the
camaraderie component, all those things that a lot of times
people don't approach. Everybody wants to go after, like batting
practice and extra swings and whatever, more bullpen sessions, more
(25:56):
ground balls. But this guy's talking about the mind a
little bit, actually a lot, and I think that's that's
where he's coming from, and I like it.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, he began in their training camp he would have
compulsory team breakfasts, so guys would get in early before
the workouts and they'd have breakfast together. But really what
caught my attention Joe's it follows up on what you
were just talking about. With the style of play right
Liverpool at least identified they wanted somebody with a distinct,
unique style of play. They didn't want to play like
(26:25):
everybody else, and he had that style. And he was
asked to explain exactly what his style was and he
said he wanted his players to feel the structure, stressing
that although he expects them to follow his ideas without
the ball, when they do have the ball it's a
little bit different. For instance, when he said, when we
don't have the ball on defense, there's no room for freedom.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's just hard work and doing what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But when we do have the ball, especially in the
last third of the pitch, then we also rely on
the individual quality. We bring them as much as we
can in certain positions, which comes from structure, But then
it has a lot to do with the individual quality
of the players.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I love that idea, Joe, that he.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Has this freedom, this structure, but freedom within it for
the players to be who they are.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Amen. I mean, that's that's what it's all about I
mean you in spring training, you put this whole thing together,
You put the team concepts together. Absolutely, there's there's certain
parts of parts of it that are more structured and
our more team oriented. But while you're doing that, you've
heard me say a thousand times, you just want to
stay out of the way of greatness and permit the
individual to blossom and be who he is, right down
(27:35):
to the way he dresses. And we've talked about that,
so I like all of that. There's times for the structure,
there's times to turn it loose, there's times for theory,
and then here comes reality. Theory and reality clash all
the time, and theoretically, you put this thing together. You
want the game to work exactly this way. This is
what we believe in. Here's abc D, here's the first, second, third,
(27:57):
fourth inning, here's the belief, picture's seventh, eighth, ninth. But
reality steps in the way, and all of a sudden,
you've got to just go rogue and play the game
and make your adjustments as you go along. DA's where
feel comes in, because when you get to that point
where things break down or they're going your way, or
they break down when they break down is really when
somebody has to take over and see things in advance,
(28:21):
react quickly. Man, it's really warp speed. It doesn't look
that fast from up top, but when you're on the field, soccer, baseball, football, whatever,
it's warp speed. So again, field being the gift of experience.
If you've been through this stuff before and you're able
to recognize things quickly or in advance, which is absolutely necessary,
then you can make the adjustments. Athletes cannot be restricted analytically.
(28:44):
There's nothing that analytics that a player is holding onto
in a hot moment in a big game. Again, theory
before the game wonderful, but when the game's being played,
let him play, stay out of their way. It sounds
like that's what he does. And again I cannot agree
with the more final point. It sounds like the Red
Sox are looking for ted Lasso. Maybe they found them.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Good point.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Hey, listen, I think you touched on something here about
camaraderie and the old days, guys would hang around after
the game and have a beer, right and talk about
the game and the last team. I can't remember doing
that show. It's a long time ago. Is the nineteen
ninety three Phillies. They would be there for hours and hours,
and you know, basically they've taken alcohol out of the clubhouse,
(29:26):
So the coffee bar is not a bad idea. What
do you think in the modern game, the manager or
the team can do to kind of foster this camaraderie
where guys tend to go their own ways. They'll go
back in their hotel rooms and they'll play video games
and be on their phones and whatnot. Those methods of
having guys around sharing talk about the game itself. I mean,
(29:49):
if you go to a major league ballpark now and
you go behind the scenes, there's so many different rooms
and areas for players to get lost in. How do
you bring back that sort of bonding element, the physical
bonding of teams with shared spaces and ideas well.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I actually really liked what the Angels did this camp,
the cell phone edict there where the cell phones were
not permitted in the locker room. I see nothing wrong
with that. And to really work your way around something
like that, just make sure that maybe your media guy,
clubhouse attendant has a his number is given to wives, girlfriends, kids, whatever.
(30:27):
To make sure that if it's an absolute emergency that
you're put in touch with him ever. But I like
the idea of that that just by subtracting technology, you're
going to encourage more conversation. So I think that would
be a great place to start. I also like the
encouragement of like team meals, like you when these guys
(30:47):
go out on the road. I loved when my guys
went out for dinner on the road, say after a
day game, maybe on a Saturday and different city, a
whole group would get together and go out, and it
was always there was almost always a positive benefit from that.
I used to do the same thing with the coaching staff.
I love that. And then in furthermore, there's something I
started getting into later on with the Cubs, was like
(31:09):
a couple of us staff guys taking one guy out
or two guys out just to be with them, talk
with him, open up about it, try to get him
known better. All these different little micro things that can
occur that foster relationship building. Whatever it is that fosters
that relationship building. I would really want to emphasize that,
(31:29):
and that's part of that would be like even within
the lead bull concept, where you get try to really
empower your your better players. The more influential guys on
the team to be like, truly there are running the clubhouse,
but truly feel empowered to run the clubhouse. And then
I would encourage them, like for instance, with the race,
if I had an issue with somebody, when I had
(31:50):
Gabe Capler, I'd say, Gabe, would you mind talking to
so and so about whatever? And then he would. Gabe
would specifically take the issue to the player and would
obviously make a big difference. I thought he was outstanding
at that. So all these little micro different ways to
talk to people, whether in a group or individually, and
from that, from this these concepts, you really build that
(32:13):
method among the group that they do hang more tightly,
that they do pull one one one another more sincerely,
that they are there and they do have each other's backs.
I don't know how much people really realize how important
that is, because we're so caught up in numbers and
data and artificial intelligence whatever as opposed to what really
makes a difference, and that's the interconnective interconnectedness between uh
(32:38):
men and players in this situation. So I would spend
so much time, but I would I would start with
the cell phone theory. I think that has there's a
there's a lot to be said about that, and then
from there just really encouraged, Like just like he's doing
these these uh breakfasts and the cappuccino bar or whatever.
I think those are great ideas.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, I'm wondering Joe, if you found things change in
the course of managing, and especially I think you were
there when Wrigley Field, the home was redesigned, that the
physical nature has changed so much it's harder to have
that team together in this I mean I remember all
the old ballparks, even the home side, especially the roadside,
but especially the home side. It was just a very small,
(33:19):
intimate place where you were literally next to one another.
And now there's just so many places for guys to
get lost. You have sleeping rooms, you have yoga rooms,
you have you know, cafeterias, just weight rooms, you know,
so many different stretching rooms. It's it's hard to get
the team literally together the way it was in the past.
I wonder if you saw that, especially what Wrigley was redesigned.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But Tayo, the one thing about Wriggley being redesigned that
I thought was brilliant is that the clubhouse was a
circle right, and everything worked off with that circle, so
you really didn't get too far away from the locker
room at any particular time. We walk out one door
as a training room, walk out the other door and
there is the food room. Walk out the other door
is the weight room. Then there's the video It was
(34:02):
really well designed, and then the one and walk out
that you go on this hallway that leads under the
stands that goes down to the batting tunnels into the
newer dugout situation. I thought that was grand, So I
think part of the interconnectedness would be part of the
design also. I think that was Theo's idea, And to me,
that was really really really well done, and I thought
(34:23):
actually it helped bring the group together more than separate.
Although there was one room there's like a video room
like you're talking about behind the food room. That was
a little bit more over the top, but there are
times you really do need just to chill a little bit.
There was a little a sleep room. I'm not a
post to that. If you just need to close your
eyes for a bit to really focus on things, I
(34:44):
was good with that. There is a plate's room, but
there's all these windows and stuff you're never really isolated.
It's not just a room with a door. So I
would encourage, like, if you're going to do anything like
that in the future, you're going to build something to
really be aware of how to keep the guys connected
within this situation. I thought the circle idea was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, democracy right, there's no power positions in a circle.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Everything's even. So that was a great idea. It's a
beautiful clubhouse. The physical nature of things.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Do matter, especially in the game of baseball, where these
guys are together seven months and in a good year
eight months. Joe, something historic happened in baseball that I
don't think it got nearly as much attention as it should,
And I want to ask you about that when we
get back after this quick break on the Book of Joe.
(35:49):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm not sure
if you saw it. It happened on a weekend out in Arizona.
E Haino Suarez hit four home runs in one game.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
He came into this game hitting one sixty seven and
thirty three years old, hitting six in the lineup, hits
four home runs. Now he's the oldest player to hit
four home runs in a game. It's as low in
the lineup as anybody's ever hit four home runs.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
He seemed an unlikely candidate.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I know he hits home runs, don't get me wrong,
but the way he was going, certainly you didn't have
a premonition something like this was happening.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
He's only the nineteenth player in the modern era to
hit four home runs in a game, Joe, And that's
fewer than there are perfect games thrown. Somebody throws a
perfect game, we all go wild.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I just listen. It's an unbelievable achievement.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I know it was a weekend when it happened, but
I was blown away by this guy hitting one to
sixty seven, taking somebody out four times in the same game,
and they lost, correct, and they lost, by the way,
that's only the third time in modern history.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
How does that happen? Right? But it did happen.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I know this. When this guy was with Cincinnati got
he was good. It wasn't just homers. He played a
really good third base, and he was a good hitter.
I mean he was a tough out in general. Older
I understand that. I don't know philosophically, what he's gone
through since he's left there. I saw him a little
bit one in Seattle, I think. But this guy has
(37:17):
that kind of jack, there's no question. And I should
have watched the video because they didn't see specifically, you know,
the pitches, the type of pitches. If they just kept
making dumb, hanging breaking ball mistakes, would.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
It Well, what's interesting, Joe is I don't know how
you thought. I always thought this that that showed this.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
He always had trouble with pitches up in his own
high eaters, and he took two of him out of
the park.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I mean top rail fastballs with velocity.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Whether it was the number up, was the number of
good velocity.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I think they were decent. Yeah, but he it was
just his day.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I guess you know what it's like on a golf
course that day right one day, right one day, center
of the club and it's going where you want to
the other day, it's like, did I ever play this
game before? The the golf club feels like an actual
like post from a from a fence in your hand.
He was just feeling it that day. I don't know
what's happened since then. It is, like you said, highly unusual.
(38:10):
It's just one of those anomaly moments. The ball looked big,
a ball looks slow. He probably his body felt great, whatever,
but it's just it is that unusual. But I will
defend the fact regardless of what he's hitting right now.
And I know the last couple of years have been
hot and cold, but man, when I saw this guy
several years ago, he was all of that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, he's definitely got pop.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
He was hitting one forty three against high fastballs coming
into this game, so I actually looked this up.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
From last starting last year, through this game, he had
seen nine hundred and thirty two pitches at the top
of the strikeson had three home runs in that game.
He saw six elevated pitches and hit three home runs.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Let me ask you this, did he did he changes?
Does anybody know if he changes bad at all? I mean,
I've always had this theory about jose Yureba, remember him
their basement with the White Sox, And yes, he used
a pea shooter of a batman little bat and this
guy killed high fastballs. I always wanted to really try
to ask guys like if they had trouble with that pitch.
(39:12):
If you ever consider just going to a smaller, lighter
bat to see if you get over, because you really
got to get on top of that ball. You have
to babbaloo, bob clear, reverse your elbows, like the left
elbows got to come down, the right elbow's got to
come up and over to get to that particular pitch.
I'm just curious if he changed equipment on that particular
da I'd be curious about that.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Well, if it was a torpedo bat, I think we
would have heard about it absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I just wonder if it's lighter, I would shorter and
lighter would be where I would go with it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Which brings me to the National League West Joe with
the Arizona Diamondbacks. They're legit. We know that from last
year they won eighty nine games last year with Giants
are taking off. We know about how good the Dodgers are.
But now they have Glass now, Tyler Glass now joining
Blake Snell on the IL Dodgers actually look vulnerable. And
we know this is a deep division. Who in that
(40:00):
division do you think can push the Dodgers to make
this you know, inevitable march that we thought for the
Dodgers to get back to the World Series to be
more difficult. I like the Giants yet San Diego, San
Francisco and Arizona.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I like the Giants, I do. I like what they're doing.
I mean, I think philosophically, I like what they're doing
a lot. I was talking to Marcel Lashman about it yesterday.
I talked to Mark Marcell. I haven't spoken to him
in a while, but the combination of Posey Bowmeil, and
he brought up is it Randy Winn running the minor
league system there? Now? Are you aware of that?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I think he is back buster brought back a lot
of guys that he played with with the Giants in
various roles, even as advisors. And you're right, they're playing
a different style of baseball. They were so much by
the book and trying to get every analytical edge.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
They turned over the roster a lot. I've talked to
Bomel about this.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
You know, he's a big believer instability, and finally they're
letting the rosters settle. He's not changing the lineup every
single day based on some incremental edge, and it's showing
up with the way this team is playing. As he says,
if we stay close to you in a game, we
got a good chance of winning. They're winning a lot
of games late.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yeah. I like all of that, and I think this
is what I think the industry needs right now, is
a more tried and true method to create some balance
regarding the the the what's being taught, and what's being
sought after. I just like what they're doing. I like
their approach. I watched them on TV a couple of times.
There's like an attitude about them that I really enjoy.
(41:31):
It looks like they're uninhibited when they play right now.
I think that's part of what I'm seeing. But I
like the structure. I like Buster to Bill Mill to Randy.
I like that a lot. I think that there's there's
something to be said for that. And I think the
players they they know who to ask a question of,
(41:52):
and whoever they're asking the question of, feels free to
answer it. If that's probably the best way I could
say it, I would bet on that because you don't
have to like, well, I'll get back to you on this,
because they've got to seek a high authority within a
hierarchy to run this question by. It's kind of a emasculating.
(42:13):
It just doesn't feel right, just as I feel good.
But a lot of people feel that way right now.
So question ask question answered. I think people have been
empowered to do their jobs right there, and I'm pulling
for them. I like them. I love Bowmell. I think
he's outstanding. So I'm pulling for this group to get
it done. I just like what they've done, and I
like to I'd like for it to set an example
(42:33):
for the rest of the industry.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
And listen, I still think the Dodgers are the chalk here.
I think they're going to be okay. But I gotta
tell you, Joe, there's some I don't want to say
worry some parts here, but they're concerning parts for the Dodgers.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
They look a little bit old. You know.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Muki had that illness early, and his batspeed just simply
is not there. Freddie Freeman with the ankle injury has
not been the same. Max Munsey just does not look
the same hit or even defensively. Some issues there. We
talked about the pitching and some of the injuries there.
They always seem to be short of pitching, always start
the year with a million pitchers and all quickly. They're
short of pitching. Uh, they don't get enough innings from
(43:09):
their starters. They rely on their bullpen way too much.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
They pitch everybody on the six or seventh day, So
they're always looking for stop gap starters to drop in there.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And they drop in, they drop out.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I just think it's it feels like a slog with
the Dodgers right now, Joe. I don't get the sense
that this team, like you mentioned with the Giants, the
way things are clicking, I just don't get the sense
there's stability here to let this team go on a run.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
Yeah, they got you know, when Showy comes back and
actually pitches. Whenever that occurs, I think that's going to
be a lip. But these other guys keep getting injured
and it's been part of their DNA over the past
couple of years because they've got great arms and they
got a lot of them, plenty of them, but they
do seem to get hurt. Just the last year in general,
and the publicity coming into this season, there's there's there
(43:54):
is definitely a hangover that's that's there right now. And
I use the word baseball boredom earlier this year and
another with Brian Kenney on him be a Network. I
just think there's some of that going on there. You know,
got off to the great start. They go to Japan,
a lot of excitement, but everything they've done and who
they are, the you know, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones,
(44:15):
whatever they are. Right now, it's it's early and the games,
you know, they're Bajor League games. It's the ballparks are packed.
I get it, But I have to believe a lot
of these guys are adrenaline junkies and they're just gonna
have to be pushed a little bit more. And I
think as they get pushed, moving it forward, you're going
to see they're gonna win somehow. They have. They have
(44:35):
all these guys that are veterans that know how to play.
They ought to win. So maybe in spite of a
months he's really struggling, he's still going to do something
big in a big moment to help them win on
a particular night, and so is the rest of the group.
They're all going to come back and play to their level,
barring any kind of significant injury. So I think they're
getting over some kind of a fog, you know, posts
(44:57):
last season, fogging with everybody just you know, telling them
how wonderful they are. They'll get by that. But I
think think that's what they're working on right now, so
give them a little bit more time. I've been involved
in situations like this post World Series kind of stuff
where you really it's not easy for some a lot
of guys or groups to just really get right back
(45:18):
into it. They will, so I think that's what's going on.
I think they got a little fog going on, and
I think they'll shake it. They'll come back strong. But
these other teams, they're giving them too much of a
foothold right now and they might be difficult to get
out of the way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I like that to what you called a fog there
or baseball boredom. You take me back to after your
team with the Cubs beat the Cleveland team Terry Francona's
team in the sixteen World Series, and Terry mentioned to
me the next year or that, you know, guys are
still trying hard, but there's something missing when you come back,
he said, every game that we played was intense. We're
(45:54):
talking about playing October baseball. Then you come back the
next year, it's April. It's a long season. You just
don't have that same sort of edge that you had
from playing these you know, winner go home games, packed houses,
the energy, the adrenaline, everything on the line. It's just
a different environment and the vibe. And we all can say, well,
they all count the same, you should all try just
(46:15):
as hard. But it's human nature that the edge just
simply isn't there. And I think you nailed it on
the Dodgers, Joe. I think they know they're a good team,
they're certainly not panicked, but at the same time, they
just don't have that same edge.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
It's just human nature. And as you said, you've lived it.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yeah, and a big fan of all kinds of sports history.
You need Larry Bird, you need Michael Jordan, you need
Magic Johnson, you need Tom Brady, you need Derek Jeter.
You know, there's that one guy. Now. I know Freddie
Freeman has a great reputation, and Rooki's really good and
all that stuff and show a show. Hey, but when
(46:52):
I really listen to or read about these other guys,
they were so possessed, possessed of winning constantly, regardless of
what happened the previous year. They did see it with
first time eyes, and they did feel first time passion
annually they were so driven, So I really to be
(47:13):
in a hunt annually and not show any kind of
wear and tear. I think a lot of it has
to do with having that one beast within your group,
the one the one athlete player, the true leader by
example that just is not going to be denied and
he's never satiated because he never can be satiated. And
(47:34):
I think that's what some groups are missing or which
prevents I mean, we were good in seventeen. We got
all the way back to the CS, had a tough plane,
right and that an Albuquerque spent the night before we
went to LA and that really hurt us, I thought,
momentum wise, so and fifteen was just a glorious year
that we just built into sixteen. But there's there's a
(47:54):
lot of that. There's a lot of that that needs
to be a tenant to paid attention to having that
savage on your within your group that just will not
permit you to relaxed. That's what you need.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Well, that's the National League West, which I think is
one of the bigger stories of the first month of
the season. Joe is just the depth of that division
and they're going to start playing each other. The kind
of intramurals part of the schedule is coming up with
the when they're going ahead to head. We haven't seen
much of that the Dodgers and the Padres that played
the Rockies, but that's been about it up until now.
(48:26):
We'll start seeing head to head competition. That should be
a lot of fun. Which brings us to our ninth
inning and Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You have the ball to close it out. What do
you have for us today?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I'm being selfish today. Sorry, that's allowed, Okay, I'm today
we drive back to Pennsylvania. Our trek begins back to
where civilization began, the cradle of the cradle of civilization
with the Eastern Pennsylvania. So I got a little nostalgic
with that, and I found some cool little things I
think appeals to everybody. I got to go with two
(48:57):
of them today. Number one, the magic thing about home
is that it feels good to leave, and it feels
eve and better to come back. And that's where I'm
at right now. It's Tampa's like my second home. I
love coming down here. It's the best. Had a wonderful
time down here, friends. I got friends down here, a
little bit of family around in the area too, But
there's nothing like going back home. And then I love
(49:19):
this one too. Home is not a place, it's a
feeling and it's true, you know, you just you start
imagining that special room, you know, the morning, the golf
cart going down to the driving range in the morning,
steak cooking a really good steak on the grill in
the back car, of me, coming by my sister, going
up to see my mom being me up on the hill.
(49:41):
It's just, it's just it's a feeling, the thought that
a feeling that never leaves. So home is not a place.
It's a feeling.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
I love that, and it's amazing how there are certain
memories and for me it's a lot of times, Joe
is the smells, right, YEA talking about maybe the fresh
cut grass or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
It's a certain time of year.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I feel that, even in the fall, when it comes
time with a start a football practice. You know, just
there's something about the air, the smell of the things
around you, and it's just it's so funny how smells,
that sensory feeling becomes so much a part of what
you think about when it comes to home.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Percent the scent of being home right, I cannot agree
with you more. Just like picking a tomato plant and
that that residue, that smell that left on your hand.
I can't wait to grow the tomatoes for this year.
I love to cut the grass weirdly I do. I
go play golf, I come back and take care of
the yard. I love that. I've always been like a
practicing amateur agronomous for years. I love all of that stuff.
(50:42):
And even when at the old ballpark, man, when they
would cut the grass the day they would cut the grass,
although it might bother me allergy wise, something in my
nose and favorite like reach down to pick up a
ball and then scratch the dryer, I'd start burning because
of the grass on the ball. Whatever. But all those
things are important, man, and I'm really looking forward to
becoming reacquainted.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
It makes me think of my favorite time I'm at
a ballpark, Joe, And it really doesn't happen anymore. Is
you get out early for batting practice, early batting practice,
and there's no organ being played, there's no music being played.
All you hear is just the sound of the ball
hitting off the bat and just resonating. If you'l like,
you know, you're at Carnegie Hall and somebody doing going
(51:23):
through their warm ups before the crowd gets in. Very
rarely happens anymore. There's so much music and noise at
a ballpark. I kind of miss those times where it's
it literally is just the sound of the bat.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Agreed to one hundred percent. I love the driving throughout
Pennsylvania when I get back right now, just doing different
things and you run into like a ballpark, a little
field with a backstop on in the middle of nowhere,
And to me, that is the essence. I don't know
that enough of us remember all that, or enough of
us appreciate that even today when I see an isolated
(51:56):
ballpark somewhere, to me, that's what this is all about.
That's what our game is all about. And that's one
thing I hope we would never forget. Should not be
remember to sell glitzy and glamorous and control. It should
be that field, you know, hopefully eighteen kids showing up,
maybe ten whatever, and you divide up into two and
play a game out there, no parents around, nobody there
(52:19):
to organize this whole thing. Just go play, just have
some fun. Play of the game and learn. Let's just
learn how to hit a baseball and how to throw
it accurately, how to pick up a ground up ball
on a rocky field, all those things. That's what I
love about driving around P eight when I get back
home this time of the year.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Great stuff, Joe, We'll see you next time on the
Book of Joe from beautiful Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
That's a hey you. That's right, Thanks Tommy, you will, buddy.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Therey, Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Joe, how you doing. We've got one month of this
season in the books already.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
I'm doing well, Tommy, And today is the big day
down here in Tampa, because we're going to start heading north,
taking a drive back up to the Holy Land, which
would be Pennsylvania, and then back to sugar Loaf and
have that one of those beautiful, glorious Pennsylvania summers. You're
very close in New Jersey is an extension of Pennsylvania,
so you know what that feels like. And I'm eager
(00:48):
about this. I'm very very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, just for you, we finally rolled out springtime. It's
taken a while day here, but it does feel like good.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Time a year.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
But hey, hey Joe, speaking of springtime, it wasn't long
before Devin Williams, the closer from the New York Yankees,
lost his job.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
We barely got into not even out of April.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
He just pitched ten games, only eight innings, and Aaron
Boone said, you know what, let's move.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
You back up, take you out of that closer's role.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want to talk to you, Joe, about the manager's
role in this when you make this kind of decision.
He's obviously new to the Yankees after the trade from Milwaukee,
very small sample size, it was obvious to see how
he was struggling, especially with fastball command. His velocity was
down a tick, but he basically just could not throw
his fastball where he wanted to and just has not
(01:40):
been getting swings and misses.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
So take me through the process here, Joe.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
If you're a manager, you're seeing a guy first year
with the team scuffling a little bit here, but he's
only got eight innings, and you say, you know what,
let's back you up and keep you out of that role.
What goes into that thought process?
Speaker 3 (01:58):
That is a tight rope because I've been watching it.
I've actually seen him pitch several times on TV Williams,
and he has not been good. He's not looked anything
like he had in the past. And I was the
last several years and I was wondering how much the
Alonzo home run has impacted him. I really I was
wondering that because he's just he's just not attacking like
he had in the past. He's not getting ahead and counts,
(02:18):
which then puts that change up whatever he wants to
call it. Really in the driver's heat, it just did
not look normal. And beyond that, just the facial expressions.
Watching from the you know, I've talked about this all
the time. Pitching coach talks to him, bullpen coach talks
to him, manager speaks with him, and you're just finding
no confidence and you just think that maybe if I
(02:40):
keep throwing them out there Chuckagan at worse as opposed
to better, like you're saying a really fine line right
here when to do this if you, in fact you're
going to do it. But man, from what I was
seeing the way he was pitching, it's almost like Bednar
with Pittsburgh. I mean, I'm a big fan of Lafia
kid last year. I just did not like the way
his shoulder was working. It seemed like something might have
been bothering him. And after being like lights out, he's
(03:03):
not been lights out, and eventually they took him out,
but it took them longer to do that. Watching Williams
short the way, he just doesn't look comfortable throwing the
baseball and he has zero confidence. So I understand this
one was look to be rather quick and difficult. But
from my perspective watching it, I thought, Okay, I get this,
(03:24):
and the conversation's got to be like straightforward. Listen, this
is going to be temporary. We want you to get
your feedback on the ground, get that confident swagger. You
need a couple like quick innings like this is This
is where the new rules make it somewhat more difficult.
A three batter minimum I would for me in the
past easily with two outs in an inning. Just bring
(03:48):
him in to get the third out in an inning,
as opposed to having to take him out of this role.
See if you can get him like two outs in
an inning or one out in an inning, and then
get him out and move this thing along. Now you
could do that as the last out of an inning.
I get that. I understand that. But just to able
to have this like freedom to get him in and
get him out, that's what I would say to the
pitching coast, get him in and get him out to
(04:09):
try to rebuild his confidence. So long answer, I think
I understand this one. I didn't like the way he
looked either, and he went one, two, three. I guess
yesterday in a supporting role as opposed to closing, and
so I think that's all good and he'll he'll be back.
I mean, the guy is that talented. But I'm telling you, man,
the look on his face and the way he's throwing
the ball, I get it.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah, and factor in here in New York, right, Yeah, absolutely,
come into the big market. You know, the fans are
starting to chant we want Weaver when he's out there.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Right when you get traded to New York or.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
You sign a free agent contract with New York, you
really have to hit the ground running, and it's very
difficult if you start from behind. You have to win
the fans over very quickly in New York. I'm not
saying that's bothering him, but it would be a natural
thing if it did, because he's never faced that kind
of scrutiny before.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Not to say he can't handle it, but it is
a new environment for him.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
The other thing I want to ask you about was
pictures like that who or two pitch pitchers? Essentially, you know,
if they don't have command of one pitch, they're vulnerable.
We're seeing that with Emmanuel class with Cleveland where the
location of the cutter just is not the same. You know,
he'd like to elevate that, maybe even run it in
on radies.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Everything now is down and the way the.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
Slider cutter, Paul Seawall, Tanner, Scott Josh Hater sometimes.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
You know Craig Kimberrell was this way.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
If he didn't land his curve ball, he was very
vulnerable because you're only a two pitch guy, and if
a hitter is able to take away one, well, the
math is in the favor of the hitter at that point.
What do you see with guys, especially closers, who are
two pitch guys, Because to me, today's game is so
much about having a menu of pitches that you can
(05:50):
throw to both right handed and left handed hitters. Pitchers,
you know, are basically now different pitchers basically who they face,
whether it's a ready or.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Left in the box.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
And if you a hitter just has a two pitch guy,
now that seems unusual. And if you've got this off,
great you can blow guys away. But the permutations obviously
are a lot less.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
I still love to tried and true fastball command first.
I think a lot of the other pitches, the out pitches,
the strikeout pitch, the one that gets your run around
third less than two outs, you're going to be able
to strike somebody out when you want to. I still think,
like you talked about Kimberle I had him for a
bit as an example. Are you watching Williams right now? Vedno,
(06:29):
when I was watching him on the tube, that they
have these other really good pitches, but you got to
get to it where the hitter is going to be
more enticed to swing at a pitch that begins as
a striking that becomes a ball. But if you're constantly
unable to throw your fastball for a strike and get
to more advantageous councils, becomes difficult. I just we talked
about it too. You You brought it up several times
about how the league is so trending to becoming a
(06:52):
non fastball situation where the breaking ball becomes paramount, and
all of a sudden, there's even more emphasis on that now.
On the other hand, I just just flip that sometimes,
you know, without the fastball command I've had that, I
want them to go to the breaking ball on the
two and zero countra three to one count, It just
depends on the individual. All these things are individual based
on the pitcher. But I I still love to see
(07:17):
a major league pitcher commands fastball, being able to locate
that to the point where you could throw it and
it might get hit, it might be put in play,
but not a damaging kind of a way to get
to your other pitches. I'd have to watch these guys
more closely to really totally understand what I'm seeing with
that fastball versus that other pitch. But it's still I
(07:38):
still believe in the fastball command location, and everything works
off of that. Well.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Speaking of getting off to slow starts, Joe, we've got
to talk about our friend Buddy Black and the Colorado Rockies.
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
The Rockies are off to a four and twenty four start,
four and twenty four. It's the worst start in modern
history in the National League. Their batting average is to twelve,
their urn run average is five point three six.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Their starters have two wins.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Imagine that your starters go to the mound twenty eight
times they walk out of there with just two wins.
This is a challenge for Buddy Black, as you know,
and it's coming off seasons of one hundred and three
and one hundred and one losses, the record Rockies had
never lost one hundred games until two years ago. Now
it looks almost assuredly like they're doing it for a
third straight year. They've already taken away his hitting coach,
(08:35):
Hensley Mullins, and they put back Clint Hurdle in that role.
I had been working in the front office. Put yourself
in Buddy Black's shoes, Joe, where do you go from
here after a four and twenty four start, after two
consecutive one hundred lost seasons.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Dude, I don't even know that. I've not been confronted
with that. You know, kind of was could have been
with the Devil Rays we went lost a hundred, then
close to one hundred, but then the next year after
that we ended up being a World Series team. There's
so much to digest there. I mean, I've been watching
PEPPI and I are so close. I really haven't spoken
(09:11):
to him. I probably should give him a blast, try
to pick him up. I didn't know about the hitting
coach with Hemsley and then Clint coming back, and I
wasn't aware of that. Those those are all band aids.
I think you know the switching of the coach right now.
That happens all the time. Coordinators always get fired and
new coordinator comes in, always looking for this different voice.
(09:31):
But it really comes down to the players. Their ability level, truly,
their ability to make adjustments, fight through difficult moments. I
want to believe they are major league players. And again
I haven't really watched their team because I don't know
the exact talent level of this group. But one hundred
hundred losses and now this which on their way, it's
a tough one. I for me, it's like you'd like
(09:52):
to get a hold of that. I've been involved in
that once as a minor league coordinator. Lake elson Or
got off. There's this kind of a start and I
had a long talk with the owner at that time
because I was the I was running the minor leagues,
and says, by the end of the season, they're going
to be a playoff team. They missed by one game,
and they missed by one game because what I did
is I went and spent like two or three weeks
(10:12):
with this team only I just had to get them
out of the hole. Because Lake elson Or was that
big part of our structure at that time. I always
go back to fundamentals when you're faced with the situation
like this. For me, it's about extra work with a group,
not just individually, and just start really reprocessing everything we
(10:33):
talked about in camp and really stressing again the importance
of playing catch, the importance of being in the right
place at the right time, and you're at bats, the
moving the ball with two strikes, accepting your walks. I
just go back to fundamentals, and I will just break
it down almost like another spring training. Guys might not
like it, but you're looking at the record. You got
to say, boys, we got to do something about this.
(10:54):
So for me, when you get to this point, you
go back to ground zero and you start building it
back up. Old line might get old, it might be
people don't like here, but it is about one day
at a time, and you've got to take that kind
of approach. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I don't know what the answer is here.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
We all know that it's difficult to win in Colorado,
probably harder to win there than anybody else because you're
playing a different ballgame at altitude, and you're playing a
different game every time you go on the road. So
the hitters and pitchers are always going back and forth adjusting,
especially on the spin.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Of a breaking ball and the break of a breaking ball.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
It's going to.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Break less at altitude.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
So the Rocky hitters get on the road and all
of a sudden, that ball's moving a lot more than
they're used to. After a seven game, eight game homestand
they've lost thirteen consecutive road games. As ties of franchise record,
they won stretch where the first time at franchise history,
shut out three consecutive games by the Padres. They haven't
(11:48):
won two straight games since lass September, the middle of
last September. I don't know what you do about the
offensive problems that are inherent in Colorado. Of course they've
had teams before that match the ball. But Joe, there's
something here that's broken offensively in Colorado. They have a
couple of good offensive players. Doyle the centerfielder, Tovar the shortstop.
(12:08):
You know, Jordan Beck the outfielder, looks like he's got
a decent stick. But you know, someone like Ryan McMahon
has gone backward, hasn't really developed at the big league level.
We thought he was going to be a big time player,
So I don't know how you teach hitting at altitude
because it is so different, And it's just this Rockies
team should not be hitting to twelve. There's a ton
(12:28):
of swing and miss. They swing a miss basically more
than any team in baseball. You've got to have a
better offensive team. It's even with accepting the fact that
they're adjusting back and forth, it's too much of a
hitter's park for this team to be hitting to twelve
and not putting the ball in play. So something's fundamentally
wrong structurally with the way they're developing hitters because they
(12:48):
don't sign a lot of outside talent. Right they're not
a big free agent team. They actually don't do a
lot of the trade deadline either. It's very internal with
the way they run things. But I think systematically, Joe,
they've got to take a look at what's broken here.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
This is a this is a classic for the tried
and true. Now again, I don't know we're talking, and
you just mentioned we don't know exactly what their philosophy is,
and I don't know the talent level necessarily there, But
obviously to me, it's about it's just about the fundamental
tried and true stuff. It's about choking up a two strike.
It's about looking away first. It's about keeping your fastball
swing loaded and try to take advantage. Maybe the ball's
(13:24):
not going over the wall, but they got enormous gaps
and big lines. I mean, there's a lot of places
to set a ball down there in the outfield, and
it comes down to contact. I've been through it. I
was challenged in the minor leagues too. There was an
epidemic of striking out in the late eighties, and the
challenge was to get your hitters to not strike out
as often and accept more walks. And that's what I did.
I mean, I came up with the b hack, the
(13:46):
two strike approach. And again, to what extent it's being
profited to these guys or mentioned to these fellas, I
don't know. But that's the thing that we've talked about
and how home runs win games, and we've talked about this,
and my response to that is, who has really tried
to win it outside out of the home run, who
has really tried to move the ball? No pictures are
(14:06):
thrown harder. I get all that stuff. However, how much
of this other game is being nurtured and as opposed
to just trying to lift the ball swing as hard
as you can, Colorado being a launching pan that it is.
But obviously it's not for these guys. It's just for
me it would be somewhat easy and then to change
the methods. But we talked about this also before when
(14:28):
I managed in the middle and these are just experiences.
But we had the same kind of a situation at
home Man. The ball flew, it was windy, the fences
were low, it was just a real hitters haven, and
you go to then you go to Beaumont, San Antonio,
Little Rock, Shreveport, Tulsa, where the ball did not carry.
So the couple of days before we went on the road,
(14:49):
I would have no if you at the top of
the batting tunnel the turtle at home plate hit that drought,
you just had to be line drives and hard ground balls.
I mean, it's just, you know, just repetition of thought.
I to me, it's just got to be a basic situation.
You've got to fly back to basics and keep preaching
it until it starts working, because otherwise four twenty two
(15:10):
is not going to turn into anything good.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I just can't see it, No, I mean, listen, it's
hard to imagine that this team is not once again
going well over one hundred losses, which brings me finally
to this point. Joe teams now seem to be not
as bad, but there's more teams that are just horribly bad.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right since the expansion era, in the one hundred and
sixty two game schedule, in the first fifty years of that,
there were seven teams that lost one hundred and ten games.
The Rockies look like they will be the seventh team
just in the last seven years to lose one hundred
and ten games. So teams are just cratering. I think
(15:52):
there's this idea.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
I don't want to say they're not trying, Joe, but
they feel like if they're not on a place on
a winning curve where they can go for a playoff spot,
they just ride it out being like horribly bad and
not trying to you know, like they don't want to
lose ninety games, you might as well lose one hundred
and ten. It's really not a good thing for the game,
and we're not seeing small market teams do this, by
(16:14):
the way, obviously the White Sox did it last year.
Teams like the Tigers and the Orioles have done it
as well, but seven teams in the last seven years
losing one hundred and ten games, after fifty years went
by with only seven. It's just it's not a good
look for the game.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
It's not And you know, everybody's working from the same process.
Everybody trying to kind of wants to be the same.
And you can't be like the Dodgers. If you're Colorado,
you want to be you want to win that many games,
but you can't do it the same way these other teams,
the White Sox, whomever. You can't just turn that thing,
the battleship on a dime and win the same number
(16:53):
of games that these guys are just based on their finances,
and then beyond that they just at the talent level.
I mean the acquisitional process, which is absolutely tied into
the amount of money you're willing to spend. There they
go hand in hand. I long story again, answer to
I believe the process needs to be changed, and I
believe you can't analytically attempt to play the same game
(17:16):
as the Dodgers are going to play based on their personnel.
You just have to have to concede and maybe go
rogue a little bit from the industry and attempt to
play a different style of game, a more like tack
oriented game, a more contact oriented game, a more fundamental
game where you don't make mistakes on defense. Again, we're
talking about pitchers being able to look at your fastball.
(17:38):
I've got to be in the right spot at the
right time. You just have to take it in a
different direction. Now, of course, it's always going to come
down to talent. Whoever has the better talent should normally
win a lot more games in the group that does not.
But if you are lacking the quality of depth of talent,
necessarily that's necessary. Really focus on a different process, focus
(17:58):
on a different method, beat them at a different game
that they're not used to playing, apply pressure in different
in areas that they're not used to having to defend against.
But all these groups still, they're so analytically married to
the same methods within each organization that nobody wants to
go rogue and try a different method of the game.
So for me, the Rockies, I would just you know,
(18:19):
you got to look like almost an a ball club
doing all kinds of different things on a nightly basis
until you hit til you finally find your groove, and
it's got to be like on a different mental level,
a different approach, et cetera. The definition of insanity right
doing the same thing over and over again. So I'm
just looking for that one team or two organizations that
(18:40):
are going to finally say you know enough of this
to taking component not caring if you lose. Come on,
I mean, what about your fans, what about like the
integrity of the game, the best interest of the game.
I can't stand that part of what's the culture of
our industry right now? That really bothers me a lot.
So do something differently, go back to the basics. Play
(19:02):
the game of baseball every night as well as you
possibly can, and don't try to go toe to toe
with people that may be more physically talented in a sense,
but that does not mean you can't beat them on
a given night.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Spoken by somebody who actually did it with the Rays
up against those big boys in the Ale least the
Red Sox and the Yankees and Joe. I'm not sure
if you're a soccer fan, but I got to talk
about and we'll do this after this break right here
on the book of Joe pretty much the Joe Madden
of the Premier League just won the title over there.
(19:36):
We'll talk about that right after this. Welcome back to
the Book of Joe podcasts Joe, before we get to
the Premier League. I thought this was really interesting where
jose L Tuvey, of course he's moved from second base
(19:58):
to left field, went to his manager, Joe Espada, and
said he'd rather move out of the lead off spot.
Now he's hit lead off for years and years and
been more of the best leadoff hitters in the game,
and he moved down to the number two spot in
the lineup. The reasoning this is really interesting, and coming
out of left field, he's got farther to run back
to the dugout and he felt really rushed for his
(20:20):
first at bat. So h Payny of the shortstop has
been playing with hitting well, so now he's the leadoff
guy in Altuve is the number two hitter, so you
can get time to get himself ready for that first
ay b.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
It is and I've hit catchers in the leadoff spot.
You know, they have to change gear, get in and
out all that kind of stuff. I don't know that
I've ever had anybody make that request to me based
on that particular reason. It's first that bat I understand that.
It's what happens like in the third or fourth any
when you come up, you're going to lead off any
of his stuff running from left field. I don't know.
(20:54):
It's just something. Maybe he wasn't doing as well in
his first at bats and so all of a sudden,
maybe he thought of this or somebody brought it to
his attention. I don't know. I I do hate the
feeling of being right. I'm not going to argue with
that whatsoever. In anything, I hate that feeling. So maybe
that probably is accurate. But I would say that the
opinion does not necessarily work out, and as I'll t
(21:16):
be like, if he really gets hot, I think it
could switch back to what it had been.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So I mentioned the Premier League. Do you follow soccer, Joe,
Premier League? I don't. I'll be honest with you.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I'll be honest in return.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
I do not, Okay, but I'm like you.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
I'm always interested in methodologies and especially teaching and coaching.
It was interesting because Liverpool went out they needed a
new manager last year, head coach as it were, and
they actually ran an internal data testing system. They had
a bunch of criteria where they're looking for somebody with
a very unique style of play. They were looking for
(21:51):
somebody who would keep their players healthy, which is super
important any sport, but especially in soccer. So anyway, they
wound up after this exhaustive search using a lot of
analytics to find a guy with Arnie Slott and he
moves in. Actually, Fenway Sports is the group that owns
this Liverpool teams. Of course they also owned the Boston
(22:12):
Red Sox. And he comes in and he changed a
lot of things, a lot of the so called soft skills.
I mean, for instance, he put a coffee bar in
the clubhouse they took from the Italian League, where players
would come in and hang out early and stayed late
around the coffee bar, just talking about yes, their game,
(22:32):
the practice, whatever, but installing or at least trying to
improve camaraderie.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
They had a.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
History there where the team when they were playing at home,
everybody would go to a hotel. By the way, the
name of the hotel was the Titanic Hotel.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
It's probably not a good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Omen and Arn't thought, you know what, let these guys
stay at home sleep in their own beds. We got
rid of the the night before home matches having guys
go to a hotel. So he did a lot of
these things and the players all jelled. He also has
this method that he's got body wake ups before games
where guys will go through breathing exercises and meditations and
(23:11):
will do this as a group. He also is big
on meetings and especially with video. Like the course of
a game, he will he has an assistant by him
and I'll just say clip, meaning take that play and
take that clip, and I'm going to address this with
that player, even as soon as halftime if it's appropriate,
(23:31):
or after the game, or anytime he has these meetings,
he rolls out these clips and he says, here's what
you did, here's where you need to be. Basically, Liverpool
surprised everybody. This guy's first year and it happens very rarely.
First year manager goes in there and they win the title.
But I like the fact that they empowered, aren't slot
once they hired him to basically install his own system,
(23:53):
change some of the methodologies.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And it worked right away. I love all that, but
I thought.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Of you, Joe Matt, because you know, he wasn't afraid
to do things. Yes, maybe in a different way, not
new to him, but maybe new to what Liverpool had
been doing.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Well, he definitely knows what he knows. I mean, he's
had some experience. Obviously, he studied it very intently. He
probably has been observing what everybody else has been doing
and realizing there's these just these these subtle, different ways
to make changes that are going to appeal to the players.
That it just really comes down to like culture, like
(24:29):
you're saying, bringing groups together the latter day postgame beer
is now the cappuccino. Things like that are the pregame.
I like all of that. Absolutely, you knew that I
would like that. I think it's a great idea. And
when you do do that that way and really understand
why you're doing it, it's not like he's just reaching
into a bag of tricks and all of a sudden,
(24:49):
like what's going to come out next, just haphazardly. He knows,
he knows what's in that bag, and he's just pulling
different things out at different times, and the players are
reacting to it. It's just different and the only thing
is up all the meetings. But I like the idea
of pull a video clip and playing back a video clip.
I'm good with that. But overall it's just refreshing to
(25:10):
these players, I'm sure. But it just sounds to me
like this guy premeditated. He's thought these things out in advance.
There's certain things that he's seen that are kind of
accepted practices, even right down to the meditation, which we
believer in, and the stuff that everybody else is doing
did not resonate with him, and he thought it all
the way through and here comes some new and different
(25:32):
thoughts that to me, it sounds like it's a lot
about mind, the mental part of the game over the
physical part of the game. Watch what we're doing. He's
talking about, like I said, bringing the group together, the
camaraderie component, all those things that a lot of times
people don't approach. Everybody wants to go after, like batting
practice and extra swings and whatever, more bullpen sessions, more
(25:56):
ground balls. But this guy's talking about the mind a
little bit, actually a lot, and I think that's that's
where he's coming from, and I like it.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, he began in their training camp he would have
compulsory team breakfasts, so guys would get in early before
the workouts and they'd have breakfast together. But really what
caught my attention Joe's it follows up on what you
were just talking about. With the style of play right
Liverpool at least identified they wanted somebody with a distinct,
unique style of play. They didn't want to play like
(26:25):
everybody else, and he had that style. And he was
asked to explain exactly what his style was and he
said he wanted his players to feel the structure, stressing
that although he expects them to follow his ideas without
the ball, when they do have the ball it's a
little bit different. For instance, when he said, when we
don't have the ball on defense, there's no room for freedom.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's just hard work and doing what we have to do.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
But when we do have the ball, especially in the
last third of the pitch, then we also rely on
the individual quality. We bring them as much as we
can in certain positions, which comes from structure, But then
it has a lot to do with the individual quality
of the players.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I love that idea, Joe, that he.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Has this freedom, this structure, but freedom within it for
the players to be who they are.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Amen. I mean, that's that's what it's all about I
mean you in spring training, you put this whole thing together,
You put the team concepts together. Absolutely, there's there's certain
parts of parts of it that are more structured and
our more team oriented. But while you're doing that, you've
heard me say a thousand times, you just want to
stay out of the way of greatness and permit the
individual to blossom and be who he is, right down
(27:35):
to the way he dresses. And we've talked about that,
so I like all of that. There's times for the structure,
there's times to turn it loose, there's times for theory,
and then here comes reality. Theory and reality clash all
the time, and theoretically, you put this thing together. You
want the game to work exactly this way. This is
what we believe in. Here's abc D, here's the first, second, third,
(27:57):
fourth inning, here's the belief, picture's seventh, eighth, ninth. But
reality steps in the way, and all of a sudden,
you've got to just go rogue and play the game
and make your adjustments as you go along. DA's where
feel comes in, because when you get to that point
where things break down or they're going your way, or
they break down when they break down is really when
somebody has to take over and see things in advance,
(28:21):
react quickly. Man, it's really warp speed. It doesn't look
that fast from up top, but when you're on the field, soccer, baseball, football, whatever,
it's warp speed. So again, field being the gift of experience.
If you've been through this stuff before and you're able
to recognize things quickly or in advance, which is absolutely necessary,
then you can make the adjustments. Athletes cannot be restricted analytically.
(28:44):
There's nothing that analytics that a player is holding onto
in a hot moment in a big game. Again, theory
before the game wonderful, but when the game's being played,
let him play, stay out of their way. It sounds
like that's what he does. And again I cannot agree
with the more final point. It sounds like the Red
Sox are looking for ted Lasso. Maybe they found them.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Good point.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Hey, listen, I think you touched on something here about
camaraderie and the old days, guys would hang around after
the game and have a beer, right and talk about
the game and the last team. I can't remember doing
that show. It's a long time ago. Is the nineteen
ninety three Phillies. They would be there for hours and hours,
and you know, basically they've taken alcohol out of the clubhouse,
(29:26):
So the coffee bar is not a bad idea. What
do you think in the modern game, the manager or
the team can do to kind of foster this camaraderie
where guys tend to go their own ways. They'll go
back in their hotel rooms and they'll play video games
and be on their phones and whatnot. Those methods of
having guys around sharing talk about the game itself. I mean,
(29:49):
if you go to a major league ballpark now and
you go behind the scenes, there's so many different rooms
and areas for players to get lost in. How do
you bring back that sort of bonding element, the physical
bonding of teams with shared spaces and ideas well.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I actually really liked what the Angels did this camp,
the cell phone edict there where the cell phones were
not permitted in the locker room. I see nothing wrong
with that. And to really work your way around something
like that, just make sure that maybe your media guy,
clubhouse attendant has a his number is given to wives, girlfriends, kids, whatever.
(30:27):
To make sure that if it's an absolute emergency that
you're put in touch with him ever. But I like
the idea of that that just by subtracting technology, you're
going to encourage more conversation. So I think that would
be a great place to start. I also like the
encouragement of like team meals, like you when these guys
(30:47):
go out on the road. I loved when my guys
went out for dinner on the road, say after a
day game, maybe on a Saturday and different city, a
whole group would get together and go out, and it
was always there was almost always a positive benefit from that.
I used to do the same thing with the coaching staff.
I love that. And then in furthermore, there's something I
started getting into later on with the Cubs, was like
(31:09):
a couple of us staff guys taking one guy out
or two guys out just to be with them, talk
with him, open up about it, try to get him
known better. All these different little micro things that can
occur that foster relationship building. Whatever it is that fosters
that relationship building. I would really want to emphasize that,
(31:29):
and that's part of that would be like even within
the lead bull concept, where you get try to really
empower your your better players. The more influential guys on
the team to be like, truly there are running the clubhouse,
but truly feel empowered to run the clubhouse. And then
I would encourage them, like for instance, with the race,
if I had an issue with somebody, when I had
(31:50):
Gabe Capler, I'd say, Gabe, would you mind talking to
so and so about whatever? And then he would. Gabe
would specifically take the issue to the player and would
obviously make a big difference. I thought he was outstanding
at that. So all these little micro different ways to
talk to people, whether in a group or individually, and
from that, from this these concepts, you really build that
(32:13):
method among the group that they do hang more tightly,
that they do pull one one one another more sincerely,
that they are there and they do have each other's backs.
I don't know how much people really realize how important
that is, because we're so caught up in numbers and
data and artificial intelligence whatever as opposed to what really
makes a difference, and that's the interconnective interconnectedness between uh
(32:38):
men and players in this situation. So I would spend
so much time, but I would I would start with
the cell phone theory. I think that has there's a
there's a lot to be said about that, and then
from there just really encouraged, Like just like he's doing
these these uh breakfasts and the cappuccino bar or whatever.
I think those are great ideas.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, I'm wondering Joe, if you found things change in
the course of managing, and especially I think you were
there when Wrigley Field, the home was redesigned, that the
physical nature has changed so much it's harder to have
that team together in this I mean I remember all
the old ballparks, even the home side, especially the roadside,
but especially the home side. It was just a very small,
(33:19):
intimate place where you were literally next to one another.
And now there's just so many places for guys to
get lost. You have sleeping rooms, you have yoga rooms,
you have you know, cafeterias, just weight rooms, you know,
so many different stretching rooms. It's it's hard to get
the team literally together the way it was in the past.
I wonder if you saw that, especially what Wrigley was redesigned.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But Tayo, the one thing about Wriggley being redesigned that
I thought was brilliant is that the clubhouse was a
circle right, and everything worked off with that circle, so
you really didn't get too far away from the locker
room at any particular time. We walk out one door
as a training room, walk out the other door and
there is the food room. Walk out the other door
is the weight room. Then there's the video It was
(34:02):
really well designed, and then the one and walk out
that you go on this hallway that leads under the
stands that goes down to the batting tunnels into the
newer dugout situation. I thought that was grand, So I
think part of the interconnectedness would be part of the
design also. I think that was Theo's idea, And to me,
that was really really really well done, and I thought
(34:23):
actually it helped bring the group together more than separate.
Although there was one room there's like a video room
like you're talking about behind the food room. That was
a little bit more over the top, but there are
times you really do need just to chill a little bit.
There was a little a sleep room. I'm not a
post to that. If you just need to close your
eyes for a bit to really focus on things, I
(34:44):
was good with that. There is a plate's room, but
there's all these windows and stuff you're never really isolated.
It's not just a room with a door. So I
would encourage, like, if you're going to do anything like
that in the future, you're going to build something to
really be aware of how to keep the guys connected
within this situation. I thought the circle idea was absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, democracy right, there's no power positions in a circle.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Everything's even. So that was a great idea. It's a
beautiful clubhouse. The physical nature of things.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Do matter, especially in the game of baseball, where these
guys are together seven months and in a good year
eight months. Joe, something historic happened in baseball that I
don't think it got nearly as much attention as it should,
And I want to ask you about that when we
get back after this quick break on the Book of Joe.
(35:49):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. I'm not sure
if you saw it. It happened on a weekend out in Arizona.
E Haino Suarez hit four home runs in one game.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
He came into this game hitting one sixty seven and
thirty three years old, hitting six in the lineup, hits
four home runs. Now he's the oldest player to hit
four home runs in a game. It's as low in
the lineup as anybody's ever hit four home runs.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
He seemed an unlikely candidate.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I know he hits home runs, don't get me wrong,
but the way he was going, certainly you didn't have
a premonition something like this was happening.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
He's only the nineteenth player in the modern era to
hit four home runs in a game, Joe, And that's
fewer than there are perfect games thrown. Somebody throws a
perfect game, we all go wild.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
I just listen. It's an unbelievable achievement.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
I know it was a weekend when it happened, but
I was blown away by this guy hitting one to
sixty seven, taking somebody out four times in the same game,
and they lost, correct, and they lost, by the way,
that's only the third time in modern history.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
How does that happen? Right? But it did happen.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
I know this. When this guy was with Cincinnati got
he was good. It wasn't just homers. He played a
really good third base, and he was a good hitter.
I mean he was a tough out in general. Older
I understand that. I don't know philosophically, what he's gone
through since he's left there. I saw him a little
bit one in Seattle, I think. But this guy has
(37:17):
that kind of jack, there's no question. And I should
have watched the video because they didn't see specifically, you know,
the pitches, the type of pitches. If they just kept
making dumb, hanging breaking ball mistakes, would.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
It Well, what's interesting, Joe is I don't know how
you thought. I always thought this that that showed this.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
He always had trouble with pitches up in his own
high eaters, and he took two of him out of
the park.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
I mean top rail fastballs with velocity.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Whether it was the number up, was the number of
good velocity.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
I think they were decent. Yeah, but he it was
just his day.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I guess you know what it's like on a golf
course that day right one day, right one day, center
of the club and it's going where you want to
the other day, it's like, did I ever play this
game before? The the golf club feels like an actual
like post from a from a fence in your hand.
He was just feeling it that day. I don't know
what's happened since then. It is, like you said, highly unusual.
(38:10):
It's just one of those anomaly moments. The ball looked big,
a ball looks slow. He probably his body felt great, whatever,
but it's just it is that unusual. But I will
defend the fact regardless of what he's hitting right now.
And I know the last couple of years have been
hot and cold, but man, when I saw this guy
several years ago, he was all of that.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah, he's definitely got pop.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
He was hitting one forty three against high fastballs coming
into this game, so I actually looked this up.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is kind of crazy.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
From last starting last year, through this game, he had
seen nine hundred and thirty two pitches at the top
of the strikeson had three home runs in that game.
He saw six elevated pitches and hit three home runs.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Let me ask you this, did he did he changes?
Does anybody know if he changes bad at all? I mean,
I've always had this theory about jose Yureba, remember him
their basement with the White Sox, And yes, he used
a pea shooter of a batman little bat and this
guy killed high fastballs. I always wanted to really try
to ask guys like if they had trouble with that pitch.
(39:12):
If you ever consider just going to a smaller, lighter
bat to see if you get over, because you really
got to get on top of that ball. You have
to babbaloo, bob clear, reverse your elbows, like the left
elbows got to come down, the right elbow's got to
come up and over to get to that particular pitch.
I'm just curious if he changed equipment on that particular
da I'd be curious about that.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Well, if it was a torpedo bat, I think we
would have heard about it absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I just wonder if it's lighter, I would shorter and
lighter would be where I would go with it.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Which brings me to the National League West Joe with
the Arizona Diamondbacks. They're legit. We know that from last
year they won eighty nine games last year with Giants
are taking off. We know about how good the Dodgers are.
But now they have Glass now, Tyler Glass now joining
Blake Snell on the IL Dodgers actually look vulnerable. And
we know this is a deep division. Who in that
(40:00):
division do you think can push the Dodgers to make
this you know, inevitable march that we thought for the
Dodgers to get back to the World Series to be
more difficult. I like the Giants yet San Diego, San
Francisco and Arizona.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I like the Giants, I do. I like what they're doing.
I mean, I think philosophically, I like what they're doing
a lot. I was talking to Marcel Lashman about it yesterday.
I talked to Mark Marcell. I haven't spoken to him
in a while, but the combination of Posey Bowmeil, and
he brought up is it Randy Winn running the minor
league system there? Now? Are you aware of that?
Speaker 1 (40:32):
I think he is back buster brought back a lot
of guys that he played with with the Giants in
various roles, even as advisors. And you're right, they're playing
a different style of baseball. They were so much by
the book and trying to get every analytical edge.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
They turned over the roster a lot. I've talked to
Bomel about this.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
You know, he's a big believer instability, and finally they're
letting the rosters settle. He's not changing the lineup every
single day based on some incremental edge, and it's showing
up with the way this team is playing. As he says,
if we stay close to you in a game, we
got a good chance of winning. They're winning a lot
of games late.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Yeah. I like all of that, and I think this
is what I think the industry needs right now, is
a more tried and true method to create some balance
regarding the the the what's being taught, and what's being
sought after. I just like what they're doing. I like
their approach. I watched them on TV a couple of times.
There's like an attitude about them that I really enjoy.
(41:31):
It looks like they're uninhibited when they play right now.
I think that's part of what I'm seeing. But I
like the structure. I like Buster to Bill Mill to Randy.
I like that a lot. I think that there's there's
something to be said for that. And I think the
players they they know who to ask a question of,
(41:52):
and whoever they're asking the question of, feels free to
answer it. If that's probably the best way I could
say it, I would bet on that because you don't
have to like, well, I'll get back to you on this,
because they've got to seek a high authority within a
hierarchy to run this question by. It's kind of a emasculating.
(42:13):
It just doesn't feel right, just as I feel good.
But a lot of people feel that way right now.
So question ask question answered. I think people have been
empowered to do their jobs right there, and I'm pulling
for them. I like them. I love Bowmell. I think
he's outstanding. So I'm pulling for this group to get
it done. I just like what they've done, and I
like to I'd like for it to set an example
(42:33):
for the rest of the industry.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
And listen, I still think the Dodgers are the chalk here.
I think they're going to be okay. But I gotta
tell you, Joe, there's some I don't want to say
worry some parts here, but they're concerning parts for the Dodgers.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
They look a little bit old. You know.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Muki had that illness early, and his batspeed just simply
is not there. Freddie Freeman with the ankle injury has
not been the same. Max Munsey just does not look
the same hit or even defensively. Some issues there. We
talked about the pitching and some of the injuries there.
They always seem to be short of pitching, always start
the year with a million pitchers and all quickly. They're
short of pitching. Uh, they don't get enough innings from
(43:09):
their starters. They rely on their bullpen way too much.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
They pitch everybody on the six or seventh day, So
they're always looking for stop gap starters to drop in there.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
And they drop in, they drop out.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
I just think it's it feels like a slog with
the Dodgers right now, Joe. I don't get the sense
that this team, like you mentioned with the Giants, the
way things are clicking, I just don't get the sense
there's stability here to let this team go on a run.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
Yeah, they got you know, when Showy comes back and
actually pitches. Whenever that occurs, I think that's going to
be a lip. But these other guys keep getting injured
and it's been part of their DNA over the past
couple of years because they've got great arms and they
got a lot of them, plenty of them, but they
do seem to get hurt. Just the last year in general,
and the publicity coming into this season, there's there's there
(43:54):
is definitely a hangover that's that's there right now. And
I use the word baseball boredom earlier this year and
another with Brian Kenney on him be a Network. I
just think there's some of that going on there. You know,
got off to the great start. They go to Japan,
a lot of excitement, but everything they've done and who
they are, the you know, the Beatles, the Rolling Stones,
(44:15):
whatever they are. Right now, it's it's early and the games,
you know, they're Bajor League games. It's the ballparks are packed.
I get it, But I have to believe a lot
of these guys are adrenaline junkies and they're just gonna
have to be pushed a little bit more. And I
think as they get pushed, moving it forward, you're going
to see they're gonna win somehow. They have. They have
(44:35):
all these guys that are veterans that know how to play.
They ought to win. So maybe in spite of a
months he's really struggling, he's still going to do something
big in a big moment to help them win on
a particular night, and so is the rest of the group.
They're all going to come back and play to their level,
barring any kind of significant injury. So I think they're
getting over some kind of a fog, you know, posts
(44:57):
last season, fogging with everybody just you know, telling them
how wonderful they are. They'll get by that. But I
think think that's what they're working on right now, so
give them a little bit more time. I've been involved
in situations like this post World Series kind of stuff
where you really it's not easy for some a lot
of guys or groups to just really get right back
(45:18):
into it. They will, so I think that's what's going on.
I think they got a little fog going on, and
I think they'll shake it. They'll come back strong. But
these other teams, they're giving them too much of a
foothold right now and they might be difficult to get
out of the way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
I like that to what you called a fog there
or baseball boredom. You take me back to after your
team with the Cubs beat the Cleveland team Terry Francona's
team in the sixteen World Series, and Terry mentioned to
me the next year or that, you know, guys are
still trying hard, but there's something missing when you come back,
he said, every game that we played was intense. We're
(45:54):
talking about playing October baseball. Then you come back the
next year, it's April. It's a long season. You just
don't have that same sort of edge that you had
from playing these you know, winner go home games, packed houses,
the energy, the adrenaline, everything on the line. It's just
a different environment and the vibe. And we all can say, well,
they all count the same, you should all try just
(46:15):
as hard. But it's human nature that the edge just
simply isn't there. And I think you nailed it on
the Dodgers, Joe. I think they know they're a good team,
they're certainly not panicked, but at the same time, they
just don't have that same edge.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
It's just human nature. And as you said, you've lived it.
Speaker 3 (46:31):
Yeah, and a big fan of all kinds of sports history.
You need Larry Bird, you need Michael Jordan, you need
Magic Johnson, you need Tom Brady, you need Derek Jeter.
You know, there's that one guy. Now. I know Freddie
Freeman has a great reputation, and Rooki's really good and
all that stuff and show a show. Hey, but when
(46:52):
I really listen to or read about these other guys,
they were so possessed, possessed of winning constantly, regardless of
what happened the previous year. They did see it with
first time eyes, and they did feel first time passion
annually they were so driven, So I really to be
(47:13):
in a hunt annually and not show any kind of
wear and tear. I think a lot of it has
to do with having that one beast within your group,
the one the one athlete player, the true leader by
example that just is not going to be denied and
he's never satiated because he never can be satiated. And
(47:34):
I think that's what some groups are missing or which
prevents I mean, we were good in seventeen. We got
all the way back to the CS, had a tough plane,
right and that an Albuquerque spent the night before we
went to LA and that really hurt us, I thought,
momentum wise, so and fifteen was just a glorious year
that we just built into sixteen. But there's there's a
(47:54):
lot of that. There's a lot of that that needs
to be a tenant to paid attention to having that
savage on your within your group that just will not
permit you to relaxed. That's what you need.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Well, that's the National League West, which I think is
one of the bigger stories of the first month of
the season. Joe is just the depth of that division
and they're going to start playing each other. The kind
of intramurals part of the schedule is coming up with
the when they're going ahead to head. We haven't seen
much of that the Dodgers and the Padres that played
the Rockies, but that's been about it up until now.
(48:26):
We'll start seeing head to head competition. That should be
a lot of fun. Which brings us to our ninth
inning and Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
You have the ball to close it out. What do
you have for us today?
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I'm being selfish today. Sorry, that's allowed, Okay, I'm today
we drive back to Pennsylvania. Our trek begins back to
where civilization began, the cradle of the cradle of civilization
with the Eastern Pennsylvania. So I got a little nostalgic
with that, and I found some cool little things I
think appeals to everybody. I got to go with two
(48:57):
of them today. Number one, the magic thing about home
is that it feels good to leave, and it feels
eve and better to come back. And that's where I'm
at right now. It's Tampa's like my second home. I
love coming down here. It's the best. Had a wonderful
time down here, friends. I got friends down here, a
little bit of family around in the area too, But
there's nothing like going back home. And then I love
(49:19):
this one too. Home is not a place, it's a
feeling and it's true, you know, you just you start
imagining that special room, you know, the morning, the golf
cart going down to the driving range in the morning,
steak cooking a really good steak on the grill in
the back car, of me, coming by my sister, going
up to see my mom being me up on the hill.
(49:41):
It's just, it's just it's a feeling, the thought that
a feeling that never leaves. So home is not a place.
It's a feeling.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
I love that, and it's amazing how there are certain
memories and for me it's a lot of times, Joe
is the smells, right, YEA talking about maybe the fresh
cut grass or whatever.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
It's a certain time of year.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
I feel that, even in the fall, when it comes
time with a start a football practice. You know, just
there's something about the air, the smell of the things
around you, and it's just it's so funny how smells,
that sensory feeling becomes so much a part of what
you think about when it comes to home.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Percent the scent of being home right, I cannot agree
with you more. Just like picking a tomato plant and
that that residue, that smell that left on your hand.
I can't wait to grow the tomatoes for this year.
I love to cut the grass weirdly I do. I
go play golf, I come back and take care of
the yard. I love that. I've always been like a
practicing amateur agronomous for years. I love all of that stuff.
(50:42):
And even when at the old ballpark, man, when they
would cut the grass the day they would cut the grass,
although it might bother me allergy wise, something in my
nose and favorite like reach down to pick up a
ball and then scratch the dryer, I'd start burning because
of the grass on the ball. Whatever. But all those
things are important, man, and I'm really looking forward to
becoming reacquainted.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
It makes me think of my favorite time I'm at
a ballpark, Joe, And it really doesn't happen anymore. Is
you get out early for batting practice, early batting practice,
and there's no organ being played, there's no music being played.
All you hear is just the sound of the ball
hitting off the bat and just resonating. If you'l like,
you know, you're at Carnegie Hall and somebody doing going
(51:23):
through their warm ups before the crowd gets in. Very
rarely happens anymore. There's so much music and noise at
a ballpark. I kind of miss those times where it's
it literally is just the sound of the bat.
Speaker 3 (51:33):
Agreed to one hundred percent. I love the driving throughout
Pennsylvania when I get back right now, just doing different
things and you run into like a ballpark, a little
field with a backstop on in the middle of nowhere,
And to me, that is the essence. I don't know
that enough of us remember all that, or enough of
us appreciate that even today when I see an isolated
(51:56):
ballpark somewhere, to me, that's what this is all about.
That's what our game is all about. And that's one
thing I hope we would never forget. Should not be
remember to sell glitzy and glamorous and control. It should
be that field, you know, hopefully eighteen kids showing up,
maybe ten whatever, and you divide up into two and
play a game out there, no parents around, nobody there
(52:19):
to organize this whole thing. Just go play, just have
some fun. Play of the game and learn. Let's just
learn how to hit a baseball and how to throw
it accurately, how to pick up a ground up ball
on a rocky field, all those things. That's what I
love about driving around P eight when I get back
home this time of the year.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Great stuff, Joe, We'll see you next time on the
Book of Joe from beautiful Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (52:41):
That's a hey you. That's right, Thanks Tommy, you will, buddy.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
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