March 4, 2025 • 45 mins
Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the decline of middle-class players in the league and the challenges they face as the sport evolves. How has training in the Spring changed for athletes? We're surprised Anthony Rizzo still isn't on a team, but what does that say about how rosters are being built? Joe stresses the importance of a balanced lineup of youth and experience. Tom reflects on 'baseball-lifers' and the impact they had on the sport that can still be seen today!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, and welcome back to the Book of Joe
with me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe as
I'd like to say, this is the most interesting podcast
on the planet because we like to talk about baseball
(00:25):
and beyond on I'll say a lot of esoteric or
interesting topics. Right, we just don't go to the top
of the headlines for the news. And when I want
to talk about actually a few things today, I want
to talk about how the older player is getting aged
out of this game. I want to celebrate a quiet
but dedicated baseball life, and I know that's close to
(00:46):
your heart, these guys who don't get the recognition and
put in all the years in the game. But I
want to start with kind of an epidemic with pitching injuries.
I know we talk a lot about elbows, Joe, but
have you looked around camps and the number of pitchers
who are straining their lats and their obliques. I mean,
it's unbelievable. Luis Heal of the Yankees, Zach Thompson the
(01:07):
Saint Louis Cardinals, Javier a Side of the Cubs, Andy
Ashby and DJ Hall, the Brewers. I mean, the list
goes on and on, Joe. For people don't know the
oblique muscle, and it is a muscle, guys tend to
strain it from either sudden movements or overuse. I mean, listen, Joe,
you've seen these camps, You've seen those opening day meetings
(01:29):
where it's full of a ton of support people, right, nutritionness,
sports performance specialists. I mean, you name it, and these
guys are breaking down like never before. Give me your
take on what you think might be going on here, Joe.
Because covering baseball in the eighties, I never heard the
word oblique.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Nobody had them. It wasn't a part of the anatomy.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I think it really illustrates the sameness of the game,
meaning that it's almost like the entire industry as one team.
I think so much information is shared and different methods
are incorporated artists of what organization you're with. So if
nobody is getting hurt, because it's the same this is
being utilized in regards to training, technique, nutrition.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And if everybody's getting hurt, it's because of the same reason.
I really believe that, and that's one of my hang
ups is that I've always felt that organizations should be
more on their own, don't always just drink everybody else's
kool aid all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And I think if you saw a little.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Bit more people out there on their own, you're going
to have a couple outliers that are not faced with this.
I know not every team has this right at this
particular juncture, but it's an epidemic and we're not even gosh,
we haven't even hardly been playing games yet, So I
think it has something to do with this information that
is passed among each other and it's taken as doctrine.
(02:48):
And again it's no different than analytics. It's it's always
considered almost like this pure information that is infallible, and
it comes down to this kind of stuff also where
new training techniques are involved, and part of it is
just trying to get guys that throw as hard as
they possible we can, the drills incorporated, the torque put
on the upper body, all that kind of stuff, It
(03:09):
just makes sense that they would, so I really am
into it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
There's probably maybe a couple organizations that aren't faced with this,
and that's the ones I want to fight.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Okay, what are you guys doing?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
But I think for the most part, it's the sameness
that infiltrates the entire industry.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, well, you mentioned velocity. I think there is something
to do with that. And it's not just throwing hard,
it's the training that it takes to throw hard. You know,
if you walk around bullpens these days, they're doing a
lot more than just throwing bullpen sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
They got the plyouf balls out.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
There, they got the weighted balls, they're you know, they're
throwing balls behind them and you know, everything is.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Geared towards throwing the baseball harder.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But at the same time, you know, you're working your
let and your obliques over and over again with these
short bursts of movement.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And that's what pitching has become. Joe.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know that back in the day, pitchers used to
run a lot, right. It was an endurance test, right,
you know, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, you name it. These
guys built up their bodies to work longer, right, They
didn't work their bodies to work shorter in bursts. But
we have a burst game now. It's just different. But
that has changed training as well. So for instance, I
(04:14):
you know, I was in Mets camp and I saw
Sean Manaya. He's one of a million guys who likes
to wear those wearable nutrition and fitness trackers. Right, how
much effort you're going through in the course of a day,
whereas it on the arm you see the golf PGA tour,
I get it, you know. And really, Joe, probably when
you first started seeing these, there were some players who
were against it, right, They thought they were giving up
(04:35):
information to the club and the club could use it
against them. I think cut teams and players have moved
beyond that. I think there was a trust factor now,
especially guys like Manaya has signed to long term deals.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
He's not going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
But my point is we're doing such a good job
now of tracking every minor detail of how the body
is working, you know, hydrated, not hydrated, over extended, under extended,
And to me, Joe, it's just not working. I mean,
so you have to look at I think training methods
more than just tracking your training.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Agreed, the running component of it. I mean, you remember
when a picture came out of a game. He'd go
out and left field during actually during a game, and
he started sprints in the outfield along the warning track
or something romantic about that isn't there, But you're right.
I mean spring training would begin with a lot of
pictures running, just like at the Angels camp over at
(05:24):
the buttes in Tempee.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You would see the guys just hitting the trail.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
They would run the road up and around the buttes,
around the ballpark, come back around.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
They would run in mass.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Some guys were running solo, but they would run, always,
always running. Then there was a sprint day and maybe
the bullpen guys ran more sprints than the endurance of
a starting picture. There was different kinds. It was really
just about running, and these guys were in you know,
great shape, and a lot of them. Some bad bodies
were involved back in the day. I get all that too.
Maybe the bad bodies never actually broke down like the
(05:56):
beautiful bodies do, but there was There was a different
method employed. It was primarily based on legs bottom from
working from the ground up, making sure your legs were
in order before you get your arm in order. And
then there wasn't just this incredible We called it maximum effort.
Everything being taught today's maximum effort. And like I just
read an article today about Jacob de Grom, and.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
This guy's gotten hurt.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I don't even know how, but because he looks like
he's got no effort at all when he throws the baseball.
But you want to really get guys that seemingly do
it easily. There their wind up and they throw the
baseball and it's almost like they put it on the
conveyor belt. The ball just flies toward home play. You
always look for those guys as a scout, as opposed
to the bumping, grind kind of guys. But everybody's turning
(06:38):
into a bump and a grind kind of guy. And
then I keep hearing about how wonderful mechanics are.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I'd love to know what that means. I don't even
know what that means anymore, because I knew what it
meant as a scout watching, I knew what it meant.
As a coach standing behind the catcher watching a bullpen,
I know what that meant. I knew what the backfoot
was supposed to look like on the ground, how the
back he was supposed to turn over and face the sky,
that that left army either had the front side pulling
your backside through your back I pushing your front side through.
(07:05):
There was different ways to look about it, talk about
it how the front foot landed. You wanted the front
foot to land beautifully and not on the outside or
on your heel. There was all these like really simple
kind of check marks, the length of your stride, all
these things were matched up and really astute pitching coach
even I wasn't even a pitching coach, but I could
recognize all these things. And then of course the pitch
(07:26):
shape and what kind of pitches were going to throw,
and really what's good for the armor, which I mean,
I've always loved this purely. Of course fastball. Fastball command
always number one. Off of that, I would teach every
kid that came in to organization if they did not
have some kind of a change up, the next pitch
would be the change up. After that would be a
real curveball, and then after that the fake breaking balls,
(07:46):
the cutters and sliders and everything else. So if I'm
running that monor league system, that's how I would begin.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
With these guys.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Now, if you come like a skiens equipped with somebody,
of course there's differences, but for the most part, there's
like only one percent schemes on the market on an
annual basis.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's where I would go to.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It's like the tried and true stuff is not even
considered anymore, and it's all mechanically based, and it's all
technologically based without any regard for the human body.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, that's a good point. You make about the pitches
too as well. I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think that the foundation of the game had always
been you need to command your fastball right, you need
to put your fastball in a place when you need
to throw a fastball.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I'm not sure that's well.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I know it's not emphasized as much because we know
the fastball rate now has going to be low fifty
percent in the last three four years, the first time
in baseball history. So that is not literally the foundation
of pitching anymore, you know, with technology, And I get it.
If I were a pitcher, I do the same thing.
You're chasing these movements and pitches to miss bats. That's
essentially what's going on. And you mentioned Paul Skeins great stuff.
(08:48):
Obviously he's throwing a cutter this year. I mean he's
out of the cutter. It's just another pitch to get
certain hitters out because not everybody has holes.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Reminds me of Max Schurzer.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
He didn't start throwing a cutter until he couldn't get
Joe Mauer out.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
This is back when both were in the American League Central.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mauer is taking his inside for seamer and just stand
inside it and slicing hits the left field.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
So he got a pitch that moved in on his hands.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
He invented the cut fastball to get Jill Mauer out
and it became a big pitch for him. These guys
are always tinkering, always working with technology. They can follow
the data and the metrics to really shape those pitches.
I think it's kind of cool, and again, I think
it takes a lot of work. And we're doing things
at high velocity and repeating these movements. I think we
need a little more, to use your phrase, Joe, a
(09:32):
little more liberal arts and pitching, where these guys are
doing other things, you know, whether they're playing a you know,
two on two basketball game after workout or running the
old school.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Just have the body move in different ways.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, Necessity is the mother of invention when it comes
to different pitches. And I understand that, and you just
mentioned sures er as he moved along.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Eventually he added the cutter.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I like that when you start adding new stuff to
your repertoire, and especially if you've already been successful and
you are successful, when you start adding things in there.
I was always my concern, when do you throw it?
And when you throw that? What are you not throwing?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What? What pitch of yours?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Is taking a vacation a bit because you want to
include this. I ran into that with some of the
rays at different times. With cutters, cutters became very popular,
and I said, really, with Shields the James, I say,
I love James Shield's curveball. He didn't love it as
much as I did. I thought it was a great pitch.
And you know David Price, really off of Shields. They
(10:30):
both developed these cutters and back door cutters became very popular.
And while they're doing that, they're not throwing other pitches
that I thought might be more Germaine prudent or better utilized,
because they were just that good. So when guys start
doing these kind of things, I'm always I get it.
I mean, part of it is the ability that the
way things are done today, there's this this ability, this what's.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Behind that door over there.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Oh, I could go over there and learn how to
throw a cut I'm gonna I'm gonna open up that
door and check it out because it's there. I always
thought that if you're going to get a new pitch
would be after you've been it's been proven that you
that the other stuff really not working. The hitters will
tell you when so I listen to me. A cutter
could just be a bad fastball, you know, because it's
not thrown as hard normally. The same thing with the
slider that's used too often. So it happened to the
(11:17):
Red Sox last year and they just threw it to death.
So anyway, there's there's probably going to be some kind
of upfront, original up tick. I would think something that
might seem interesting, but to do it over a period
of the year, let's just see how that all shakes out.
I was always larry of that, especially with good guys,
Especially when good guys when they've not been getting hit
around a lot. I was always concerned when they wanted
(11:38):
to add something new, because while they're throwing that, they're
not throwing something else that they're really good at.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well, I think at the very least Joe. I think,
not to say they're not doing it, but the industry
has to really re examine I think training techniques for
pitchers and not just you know, sign up for all
these oblique injuries and lads that are putting guys out
for six to eight weeks as the cost of doing
business of training for velocity, that's unacceptable. They have to
find out, you know, what is going on here, what
can we do differently. I'm sure the industry is doing that.
(12:05):
I'm not sure what the answers are, but I would
not accept this as just that's the way pitching is
these days.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Let me just interrupt real quickly one second. I mean,
and I should qualify myself here. I mean, I haven't
been out there, you know, more recently over the last
year or two to really watch this in person. So
I'm just speaking anecdotally about what I've seen in the past,
and then combining that what I read and obviously what
we talk about here. These are my concepts as of
(12:32):
like twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, when I stop
managing at that point, but I'd be curious, I mean,
for me to really really give you one hundred percent
died and exactly what I believe, and I'd have to
see more of what's.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Going on with my own eyes.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I'm with my own eyes kind of a guy, because
when you hear things, when you read things, even statistical
information like that, I still have to look at that,
maybe that info, and then apply my own sensibilities, my
own experience to what we're talking about here. So when
I talk about this stuff, it's probably two year old vision,
three year old vision, but I still believe it's Germaine.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Now let me move on to something real quick. Joe,
it's jose Al Tuove the Astros. They're moving him from
second base to left field. I think this is really
interesting because if you go by defensive metrics, the last
couple of years, he has been a really poor defender.
I'm not sure what that means anymore, because I don't
necessarily trust defensive metrics to be absolutes.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think maybe as a rule of thumb, they work.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So they want to play Maurice Dumont at second base
and move out two Vey out to left field.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
It's interesting to me, Joe, that you make a move
like this.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Is a franchise player, obviously has been one of the
great second basement of the game of his generation for you, Joe,
as a manager, when you evaluate players, and obviously you
need player like this to buy in and do it,
and he has. What do you think would spark your
interest or decision in moving a franchise player off his
natural position this late in a career.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Eyeballs versus analytics.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, I mean, they could easily back up their
decision analytically, but I'm sure they're looking at a first step,
some kind of a move is turning a double.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Play and they're overlaying.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Uh the fella's names, was it, Dude, Dubon, Dubon, Yeah,
he's he's they're overlaying him over top of this guy
and what that would look like. They're probably looking for
a better range, more accuracy with the glove, meaning like
when he goes to his right, that backhand to his right,
that it's caught cleanly.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The foot's plan and the throw is accurate.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
There's different things they're looking at that they believe Dubon
is better at than this guy is right now, and
that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
They probably have.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
They have an opening and left field. They feel that
their infield defense is more solidified up the middle. It's
about a'll two of a yes, but it's more about
the other guy, because if this Dubon wasn't ready to
do this, and if they did not feel that there
would be better with him, it would not be happening.
So for me, it's like, yeah, you could talk about
the metrics and all that other kind of stuff, but
I'm with you on that. I've always been a little
(14:54):
bit skeptical of all those numbers, but I would say,
my eyeballs, I think it would be easy to watch
these two guys state ground balls or watch him in
the spring training game, and there's going to be certain
you're going to look out that the one fella is
absolutely better than the other, and then.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
You put all two bay and left.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Now, they put him in left field at home, which
is a small outfield, which there they like that to
throw shorter, but when he goes to different ballparks it
could be different, like bigger left fields, more room to cover.
That kind of stuff become more concerning. I doubt that
they're going to move him from right to left based
on the depth of the field, something we did with
Schwarber a bit when he first started playing the outfield
(15:31):
with the Cubs.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
There's certain things.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
You can do to mitigate the lack of arm strength,
which I don't think he's gonna have like really great
arm strength from the outfield, although he's been involved in
cutoffs and relays for a bit. But again, last point,
I just think it's an overlight what looks better. You
don't need a stockpile of information to tell you who
was better at second base for us right now. You
just got to look at it and watch these two
(15:54):
guys play and make that determination.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Yeah, a good point about the arm strength.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I mean, the arm was an issue at second base,
and now moving him in the outfield. You know, I'm sure,
especially early in the season, you'll see a lot of
third base coaches taking chances. Absolutely I OASIL two, they'd
being new out there. As you saw with Kyle Schwarber.
It's just part of the game. Credit to him for
making the adjustment. But you know, Joe, this game now,
if you're getting into your mid thirties, the game sometimes
(16:18):
retires you rather than you re tying yourself.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I want to talk to you about that. What's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It's a lot of good players don't have a job,
but that's something that's been happening year after year recently.
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe. Anthony
(16:45):
Rizzo still doesn't have a job.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Joe Medden. It's surprising to me.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I thought, you know, obviously has concussion, some injury issues
in the last couple of years. But what he can
offer a team man, I'd want him in my clubhouse.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Middle class has been forced out. It's either like you know,
the babies, or these the star guys. The guy's getting
a lot of dough and teams cannot live without. And
on the other side of the spectrum, not inflating your
salary structure by adding guys that are more mineral. They
definitely believe they're going to get this out of young guys,
and I think that's part of the reason why we're
(17:18):
seeing a dip in fundamentals and how the game is played,
because a lot of these guys really have not served
enough time into minor leagues. They've not gone through boot camp,
they've not seen instructional leagues, they've not seen all that stuff.
They're really permissive to understand how to play the game.
They don't have instructors in the minor leagues down their
throats when these things aren't going right. I'm it's just
just fact these things aren't being done. So the game
(17:40):
has been deluded a bit only because of the fact
that the people playing it, there's so much, so many
of them that really don't have the foundation or the
base to understand the game entirely. Whereas there's a bunch,
like you're saying, sitting on the sidelines that do know how,
but they're within that price range that the teams don't
want to mess with. Maybe they will mess with them
later on they have an injury or as they get
(18:02):
closer to possibly a playoffs that if the guys available, whatever,
But when you're putting it together in spring training, there's
a it seems like a need or desire to just
go youth and old. I mean, there's again no I
call it a middle class. I've seen it coming on
for years, and a lot of it is attached to
the amount of money you have.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
To pay these guys. That's it, pure and simple.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I mean, there's a lot of teams that would be
better service, I believe, as the ability to play the
game properly if they were to spend more time permitting
these guys to develop into minor leagues and really teach
them the game.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And while you're doing that, you sign higher.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Some of this middle class that that really going to
augment your team, make your team better, make a better
product on a nightly basis.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
I mean, that's how I see it, pure and simple,
and I think that's what's happening.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Well, I'll give you a couple of numbers, Joe. Last year,
players who are aged thirty five and older who had
enough at bats to qualify for the Batting Championship, there
were only four of those players. The year before twenty
twenty three, there were only four of those players. That's
the lowest ever since we've had thirty teams, and it's
(19:05):
the lowest in any season since nineteen sixty five. If
you go back to two thousand and seven, remember there's
only four players last year who played enough to qualify
for the Batting Championship thirty five and older. Go back
to two thousand and seven, there were twenty one of them.
That's an enormous change in the game. Now, a cynic
would suggest, you know, back in the day, we didn't
(19:27):
get steroid testing. Until two thousand and three, a lot
of guys were writing the benefits of extending their careers.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Unnaturally, there's no question about that.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But you're right, Joe, I think there is a split
here in terms of what teams want. I will disagree
with you on one thing. I think the young players
are getting the big leagues. Maybe not as polished, but
their skills are tremendous, and they grow up playing a
much higher level of competition, going up against the amount
of hard throwers, for instance, and double A and even
(19:56):
single A.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
They're seeing velocity of young age.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You think about the travel ball circuit, I think the
competition they're facing is better, and I think that prepares
young players better for the big leagues. They also think
the fact that you know, nobody's coming off the field
in Iowa anymore, who's never seen a three deck stadium
or you know, never been on television and everything is
kind of like this odd wonder these guys should get
the big leagues at twenty twenty one, and they're mature,
(20:20):
They've been in pressure situations and played in big ballparks
and showcase events. So I do think the younger player
now hits the ground running more than before. Now, if
you want to tell me he doesn't know the intricacies
of winning baseball as well, I'm not gonna argue that,
but I think it's easier for teams now to say,
let's just go with the young guy, not necessarily because
(20:41):
he's cheaper. I get that that's certainly a driving force.
I'm not ignoring that, but that the skills of the
young player are so darn good it's easy to dream
about some of these guys.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, I mean, obviously there's some really talented young people,
and I'm just banging on the ability to play at
the game properly or not. I mean, I think that's
what it comes down to as the season's in progress,
when that stuff starts breaking down, that's what lead to
a lot of discussions, arguments. And after all, there's only
a few teams that are really on an annual basis,
we'll talk about this year who we think are going
(21:12):
to really be legitimate World Series contenders. So there's so
many teams that are competing with this concept conceptually the
younger player and again not utilizing the fellows that have
really done their time and know how to play the
game properly.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So yeah, you have a lot of this in the league.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
You have a lot of these kind of players, and yeah,
listens athletically skillfully. I had like a punt passing kick
competition for baseball, they'd be outstanding. Absolutely, they would be.
But if you're going to talk about that's it. I
mean the game of baseball itself, that these standards have
been so lowered in regards to execution of the game.
So right now it's more of a skills competition than
than the artistry of a planing baseball game properly. And
(21:51):
you know what happened with the Yankees last year, and
I just heard about it the other day. I mean,
everybody's concerned about fundamentally and how they played the game,
and they thought the big part of the reason why
the Dodgers did it and they didn't was because of
that pticular fact fundamentals were not in place. And you
look at the Dodgers, I mean, outside of their pictures,
they're they're kind of like a veteran Leyden group. I mean,
hiring Keicky her nanispack the is a reason for that.
(22:12):
So yeah, there's there's all kinds of arguments to be made,
and so whatever I think whatever kind of glasses you're wearing,
or whatever camp you come from, or what you believe in.
That's kind of religion sort of. So I love skillful
young players. I've listened. I could name you names of
guys that spend a lot of time in the minor
leagues when I was doing it, that probably would be
on that fast track that you're talking about now had
(22:35):
they just been born a little bit later. I mean,
if jim Edmonds, Timmy Sam and a bunch of these
guys were so skillful coming out of college, but they
have just been thrust into the big leagues, and then
you would never you know, although Jimmy came with all
the bells and whistles, you know, Timothy became a better
base runner. I could go up and down a list
of a lot of guys, Damien Easley, Gary DiSarcina. You
(22:56):
could have made arguments for these guys that they would
have been like more big league ready if the philosophically
it was different at that time as compared to what
it is today. So I know there's a lot of
great athletes in the game, but there was then too. Man,
when you when you walked around instructional league in the
eighties and you walked into the Cubs camp or the
Mariners camp, like Al Chambers, Tito Nanny, you know, all
(23:20):
the guys with the Cubs, whether it was Sean Dunstan,
Tony Woods, all this group. Of course, Davie Martinez was there, Maddox.
I mean, there was some prolific players back then. They
didn't have a chance to get to the big leagues
yet because well we're talking about there's guys in their way,
like the middle class was still on their way, and
while they were in their way, they developed a better
game or better brand of baseball. So I think it's
(23:42):
easy to say that these guys are more skillful only
because people weren't there to scout these guys back in
the day and how good they actually were.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
The methods were just different.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
The fact that you had to earn the right to
get there was different as compared to now.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And a lot of it has to do with.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
That information analytics and the fact that they you know,
financially speaking, you could spend seven hundred some million on
a Sota knowing that I got several guys that are
paying nothing to play the game for us right now
reasonably well, but not as good.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Some of the guys we mentioned, Anthony Brizzo not signed,
Adam Duvald, j D Martinez, Drew Smiley, Jose Iglesias, Lance
Lynn Patrick Corban, Kyle Gibson. These are established, in some cases,
former All Stars who are out there, and I know
in some cases it's a matter of money. I think
Adam duval has said he doesn't want to play for
less than three million dollars. These guys don't want to
(24:33):
come in on a minor league contract, and at this
point of the year, man forty man spots are golden
to major league teams, right, It's everybody's locked in and
you don't want to lose it. You know, a prospect
because you're signing a guy at a flyer that he
still has something left in the tank. And what made
me think about this, Joe, was the news that Mike
Mustakis officially retired.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Right, Mike Mustakis, I love him, I love him.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Exactly right, And I remember when he was in Milwaukee
late in his career, they absolutely loved him. Now, he
played well for them, but it was what he gave
that team, just the energy, just a really great teammate.
An example of these guys that we're talking about that
maybe there's not a lot of baseball left, but the
other qualities are actually enhanced as they get deeper in
(25:21):
their career. So Mike Mustakis, you know, I had a
great eight year run with Kansas City. Of course, you know,
won World championship there thirteen year career. Was not a
very good hitter the last four or five years of
his career. In fact, his war his last four years
was negative one point seven. But you know what, he
bounced from the Royals to the Brewers, to the Reds,
to the Rockies, to the Angels and actually went to
(25:43):
camp with White Sox last year. That's when Baseball retired him.
He didn't show enough in camp on a minor league
deal to make the team. So he's actually been retired,
just made it official. So this was a case where
the game retired him. He did go to camp on
a minor league deal and just wasn't good enough, didn't
make the team. But my point, Joe, is that teams
kept picking him up, either trading for him or picking
(26:03):
him up after he'd been released, because of some of
the tangibles that he could offer teams that we're trying
to win. You know, I don't think that need for
that kind of player ever goes away, but it is
getting That path is getting more and more narrow.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
One hundred percent. Okay, So what is our motivation? I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I'm I'm a second division team for the last five years.
What is our motivation coming into this season? We've talked
about I think we mentioned it last week.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
What are we what is our goal for this year?
What are we trying to do here? What are we
trying to do over the next five years? Do we
ever even talk about winning the World Series?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
What is our goal? Those are the kind of things.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So when you're constantly you know, you're spinning your wheels
in five hundred land, I mean, that's what a lot
of these teams are just trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So whenever you put your team together coming fall.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Into the season, there's gonna be some glaring holes and
then you're going to fill them with lower end regarding
salary structure, like nice looking guys, skillful players. Yes, but
he plugged him in with some of these guys like
you're talking about, and there's a lot of platoon potential
with all the guys you mentioned there guys that are
varieties that hit left these better and lefties that hit
righties better.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
That kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There's different ways to ying and yanget as you're putting together. So,
but what is the motivation of the organization going into
this year? I mean, do people really talk about winning
the World Series? And do they have a five year
plan to win the World Series? Or do they just
have a five year plan to compete? That's what it
really looks like. It's almost like you succumb to the
big spenders and say there's no way we could keep up.
(27:27):
I mean, you just all you hear about is the
money spent and the acquiescence of those groups as being
the only groups that have a chance to play in
at the end of the season, the last game of
the year and win it. So that's where I get
hung up. Even with the two thousand and seven Rays.
I can't say the six because we were really bad,
But at the end of the two thousand and seven Rays,
I started seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
(27:48):
And you know, it was at the end of the
tunne where the Yankees and the Red Sox and look
at those rosters. That was some good stuff going on
back then really good stuff, and there wasn't a whole
lot of babies on those teams. It was really pretty
much a formidable group of established major league players augmented
by others that might not have been superstars but were
really good. So when they did a platoon on you man,
it was it was a formidable platoon. So I don't know,
(28:11):
we've moved so far away from that. I know it's
just a different it's different methods, it's different philosophically, and
it's all driven by math. But what is our motivation
going into the season, and what is our next motivation
over the next five years, and how we're going to
get there?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I just question that sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, you're not wrong, but I can tell you it
actually goes on with teams trying to win the World
Series as well. I'll give you an example. The New
York Mets. They found gold last year in Jose Iglesias.
Right started the year in triple A, and my goodness,
he developed into one of their best clutch hitters. No question,
his influence on the team in the clubhouse was huge.
But you know what, the more he played as we
(28:48):
got deeper into the off season, you know, the clock
kind of struck midnight on him. And you know, the
Mets looked at this guy and he saw declining skills.
He always known for his hands in glove, first step
quickness not great, range not great, and teams began to
handle him offensively later in the year. So do you
bring him back? Well, they signed Nick Madrigal instead to
(29:09):
basically be their Jose Iglesias kind of do everything infielder.
Madrigald gets hurt in spring training, I'm sorry, broke his
shoulder out for the year, So you think, well, maybe
they bring him in now. No, now they have Luis
on Hail Acunya to be that guy in the infield,
young player. I don't know how you feel about young
players being utility guys, but you know that's what the
role is. And if you line them up for a tryout,
(29:31):
you would pick Acuna over Iglesias ten times out of ten, right,
So I think even in this case, the confidence in
the younger player after you've had the older player. And
I know the Mets fan is just loving Iglesias and
why not for the OMG and everything he gave the team,
But it's a cold business, and I think that.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Acona is just the better player, so you go with
the better player.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I don't disagree with that at all.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I mean, and you're talking about I have no problem
breaking in a young player as a utility guy with
the Angels. We did it with Sean Figgins in the
early two thous thou and then with the Rays. When
bj Upton first came up, I wanted to make him
into a utility guy. And I think it was the
second year, first or second second year he played second base,
Remember bj, We put bj at second base, and my
(30:16):
thought was, I told him the show up with all
kinds of gloves. I want him to work at a
whole bunch of different positions. And I thought if we
did that, he would spend more time thinking about his
defense and would just react more offensively and just hit.
And I thought he would benefit from that. He ended
up playing second base, and I was on his way
to a very good season before he blew out a
I think it was his achilles running down to first
(30:37):
base at Joe Robbie Stadium that time, Ben Zobrist. When
Zoe came up, it was obvious he was here at
a shortstop, but that wasn't really going to work. But
then here's this guy that once we stuck him in
the outfield, he became, you know, one of the most
prominent super utility guys possibly had ever played. I mean,
Zoe was that good. So I have no issues with
that whatsoever. None, And I don't want to misrepresent this.
(31:00):
I love young players absolutely. I love young players, and
I love young players that deserve to be there and
can handle it and all that kind of stuff. But
I also love middle class I love a lot of
good baseball players that could augment your group because they
have good skills on the field, they don't make mistakes,
and like you had already mentioned, the clubhouse benefits too,
So it's a fine line that you.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Got to walk.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I just don't like the fact that they're just totally
pushed out of it. He talked about Riz. I've just
been texting with that and hopefully have dinner with them soon.
But guys like this, I mean, how does that happen?
He is if you put him in and played him
the proper number of games. And we've talked about this too,
the way first basemens are considered these days compared to
the past, he could easily be a wonderful platune at
(31:43):
first base. Match him up the way you want, He's
still an outstanding field. I know what the metrics might say,
but the guy, he's one of the best throwing first
basemen I've ever had. Nobody even talks about that what
he does with his arm. And I think if you
played him less and put him in the right spots
and maybe just drop the DH spot on him once
in a while, you're gonna get a better product from
him too. So anyway, you could go back and forth.
I love young players one hundred percent. I love a
(32:05):
lot of these young players that are playing. I'm not
arguing that point, but I still love really well rounded
baseball players, liberal arts players, guys that know how to
play the game wholeheartedly fully, and that's that's what you
see missing. A lot and a lot of the guys
that are being pushed out are able to give you
that kind of game, but not given the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
There's no doubt they're getting squeezed out of the game.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
When we get back Joe, the term baseball lifer, I
mean that is a term of endearment.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
You've got to hear some of the stories about one
of the baseball lifers we lost in the last week.
We'll do that right after this on the book of Joe. Well, Joe,
(32:50):
I'm sure you can appreciate the life of one Bobby Malchmus.
He was born on the fourth of July in nineteen
thirty one in Newark, New Jersey, so right into the
Great Depression.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
He did make it to the big leagues.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Play six years in the big leagues, mostly as a
utility guy. He got one run in every j job
at shortstop for the Phillies and sixty one we'll talk
about that. But he went on to manage in the
minor leagues. He nine years managing the minor leagues, Joe,
never above a ball, Eugene, Spartanburg, Watertown, West Palm Beach,
(33:25):
Lewis and Idaho, Miami, Bluefield, Lodie. He's with the Phillies,
the Expos, the Orioles organizations. I mean nine years never
above a ball. That is a lot of buses. And
from there he went on to be a scout for
Cleveland for a long time. He passed away at the
age of ninety three. I mean, think about a life
(33:46):
like that, Joe. I mean, there's so many you think
about all the people that he touched right, whether they
made it to the big leagues or not. Now, his
first managing job in Eugene, he had Buck Martinez and
Stump Merrill on that team, two future major league managers.
So you know, I just want to recognize somebody like
this because his name was never in the headlines for
(34:07):
the most part.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
And what a full life dedicated to the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Man, I mean, you're just making me almost cry. I mean,
that is That's it. That's baseball right there. That's what
baseball should be all about. Stories like that, I could
really well reflect and empathize with a lot of that.
The bus riding and amount of time spending the minor leagues,
the buses, et cetera. The outposts, like you said, the
lives impacted all these players that he did impact it
(34:31):
nobody would ever know about. But purely the romance. That's
where the romance and the level of the game really exists.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That's pure.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
That's like Division III football or baseball in college, or
even sometimes Division two where it's.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
More more real.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
I do cherish stat I'm so grateful that that was
my path to getting to the major leagues and eventually
becoming a manager. I'm so grateful that I spend all
those years in that kind of a situation. That's where
you really learn your craft, not only about baseball, but
people in general, how to deal with situations, things that
are not perfect by any means, adaptation, on the move,
(35:10):
all that stuff occurs when you're faced with those kind
of moments daily. So man, I seriously, that is really
heartwarming and endearing to hear all that, And having said
all that, it will never happen again. The way that
the game is structured right now, you're not gonna hear
about people like this anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, thinking about Tom Kauchman, when your coach's son,
Casey played in the Big League's coach was with the Angels.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
He and I came up together.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Koach was in rookie ball for so many years I
don't even know how many years in Boise, Idaho and
other outposts. And he was with the Red Sox too,
and you never wanted to move him higher than that.
He got up the Triple A as a manager, but
I never wanted him out of a rookie ball because
his impact was so great. He was like the guy
that broke these guys in annually. And you ask anybody
(35:56):
that played for Coach back in the day. We talked
to Sean Perty Rock Perty's dad, he played for Coach.
I think Kotch signed him as an example. Those are
the kind of guys. When you mentioned this fellow, that's
immediately what I think about. Cotch was invaluable to the
success of the Angels for so many years, and nobody
ever talked about it, Nobody ever mentioned it. I knew
(36:18):
that Jeter Hines another guy that was like that. These
are the guys that really make a difference in a
lot of lives of young people. People that you never
see make the big leagues, but having been coached and
touched by these different guys really makes remarkable changing the
lives of these players.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
So yeah, fella's name again one more time, Tommy, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Bobby Malcolmus.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Bobby, Bobby and Kotch they sound like a lot of
the same guy you know, and Coch Coach is like
one of the most dedicated baseball people I've ever met.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, it will not surprise you that one of Bobby's
early mentors was Gene Mark.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
The nineteen sixty one Phillies. Bobby.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That was the one time that Bobby had a chance
to play really every day. Wow, this is amazing. Nineteen
sixty one Phillies. He actually got an MVP vote, Bobby Malcomus,
he finished twenty second, He got a vote. He hit
two thirty one for a Phillies team that lost one
hundred and seven games, and someone put him on his
MVP valley. First of all, gen Mock played him because
(37:18):
he knew that this guy was a quote unquote winning ballplayer,
right the intangibles that he saw. But a guy who
hit two thirty one with the two seventy six on
base percentage actually got an MVP vote because I think
back then people appreciated what a winning ballplayer was. Let
me tell you about this sixty one Phillies team, Joe.
They have one point, lost twenty three games in a row.
(37:39):
They went basically an entire month without winning a ballgame.
They finally won the second game with a doubleheader against
the Milwaukee Braves, breaking the Braves ten game winning streak.
Isn't baseball great? By the way, a team that loses
twenty three in a row beats a team that won
ten in a row. They go back to the clubhouse,
the old County Stadium, Milwaukee, and I'm sure remember that place. Yeah,
(38:03):
spare and cheese and crackers and beer. That was a
postgame spread, big celebration there, Gene Mark. They have the
photographers in there to celebrate like it's the World Series.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
And they asked Mack to hug the picture. Who won.
A guy by the name of John Buzzheart And by
the way, it's just so good.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
He was from Prosperity, South Carolina. They asked them to,
you know, post for a picture. Jean, put your arm
around him.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Jene talks about his team. He says, I never saw
a group of guys stick together the way this team did.
But they asked him to smile, Gene, he can picture this, Joe.
He had a hard time smiling. He actually said, how
has a guy who's won one out of his last
twenty four games crack a smile and joke around. He
just couldn't do it, but he did take the picture. Anyway,
(38:51):
the Phillies come home. The road trip ends. They fly home.
They land at the Philadelphia Airport at one o'clock in
the morning in a rainstorm, and there's five hundred people there. Tom,
there's actually a band called the Last Battalion that is
playing songs as the Phillies, losers of twenty three straight
(39:13):
breaking the streak, walk off the plane. The fans create
an aisle for them to walk through while the band
is playing to welcome this team home at one o'clock
in the morning during a rainstorm.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
How great is that?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Amen?
Speaker 3 (39:26):
That that exceeds anything that could possibly watch on social
media today, any kind of video clip that is heartwarming.
And I could just say, I thought you were gonna say,
Jean flipped the spread.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I thought you were gonna go there.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
That's one went out of twenty four games that see that.
Those are I know there are times gone by. He
ain't coming back. It's never going to be that way,
and I get it. But those when I think of
sending through baseball and how I started out, that's those
are the kind of stories that make it all worthwhile.
That is why as a kid I wanted to do baseball.
(40:00):
It was larger than life. I don't even know if
I could say that anymore, but it was. There was
such a connection to every part of the country, every kid,
every father, a lot of moms too, man were into
my mom was there's such a strong connection with all that,
the grassroots component of it, that it's just the time
going by.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I get it.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
I know you get accused of being nostalgic or whatever,
but that's that's real right there. That's that's that's that's uh.
That's Division III college football or baseball whatever.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
That's what that is. And the fans showing up.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
I that that in and of itself is worth a movie,
that that whole day, if they could recreate that or
a mini series.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I mean, that's that's all right.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
That's the stuff that to me, that we're missing, the
fact that you can't get any more pure in regards
to why you're doing something. It wasn't about money, it
wasn't about fame or acclaim. It just because they really
did love the game. And and that's that's the part
that I think some guys have yet.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
But it's a lot don't just the.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Way the day is formulated, the way they pressure's mouth,
the scrutiny involved, all this other stuff that technology I
still believe subtracts emotion and connection because it just it
just does its way too sterile. So anyway, days gone
by let's do the mini series. Let's contact Netflix or somebody.
But that's a hell of a story. Well done, man,
(41:23):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
The Pride of Newark, New Jersey Bobby Malkmus. He was
ninety three years old. He went to Southside High in Newark,
then Saint Benedict's Prep and was signed.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
By Honey Russell. Is that name ring a bell? Honey Russell,
the old basketball coach at Seaton Hall. It was the game.
He was a scout as well.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
That was back in the day when you had these
gurus who you know, cross pollinated in sports. They were
just good teachers, educators, you know, analysts, whatever you want
to call them. You know, they knew what a winning
ball player was, no matter the sport. So these guys
contributed to multiple sports. Honey Russell was one of those guys,
a longtime scout as well as a Hall of Fame
basketball coach. He was the one that gave Bobby mal
(42:04):
Miss a chance of the game and was rewarded with
a lifetime to the game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Seriously, that is such wonderful stuff.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
And I mean just drove up to South Carolinias that
I have been waxing nostalgic to begin with. And now
you're going to go on this trope for me, right now,
that's going to I'm not going to cry, but god dang,
you're starting to hit some strings.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Man.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
That's such good stuff because I'm thinking about all the
different scouts. It was Gene Thompson and all these guys
back in the day, Bob Aloo, Bob Clear is in
our book. That's what baseball represents to me. These kind
of thoughts, these kind of memories, and nobody's capable of
generating these kind of memories or thoughts anyway.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I really don't think so.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
It's just too complicated, too much involvement by things out
of your control as opposed to just being able to
control your own destiny. Sometimes it's too bad. I mean,
this is the kind of stuff that novels were written of,
that movies were made of. I like we're just talking about,
and this is the kind of stuff that when you
have a chance to sit in a room by yourself
and ruminate on, these are the kind of things that matter.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Well said, Joe.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
And speaking of well said, you always bring us home
with some words of wisdom. What do you have this
week to end this episode of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
We're on point, Buddy, right point. I got a fello
by name of abdu Kalom.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
I don't know who this is, but I was thinking
about the word fate this morning before I drove up here.
Last night I meant Paully's Island, South Carolina. I'm hanging
out for a couple of days here, meeting up with
Thom Sagudo, a very famous young golf instructor. Had dinner
with them last night. What a wonderful personality. And it's
going to be here for a couple three days. But
I'm driving up Paully's Island. You think you're I don't know.
(43:41):
It could have been any year. It could have been
nineteen thirty, forty fifty sixty on rot seventeen coming up
from Charleston. So it became very nostalgic in regards to like,
you almost feel like you've lived here before.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
So anyway, it was fate.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Be active, take on responsibility, work for the things that
you believe in. If you do not, you are surrendering
your fate to others.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
And that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I mean, that's I think that really sums up you
know what I believe in general. In these days, I
think we do surrender too often, and when you do
try to stand up to what you believe in, you
get shot it down sometimes you know people will and
then you succumb to the majority when you shouldn't. If
you really feel strongly about something, don't surrender. Don't let
(44:28):
anybody else control your fate. Go out there and make
it happen, make it work. You have to have a
real strong belief. You have to believe in yourself. There's
a confidence level to do those kind of things. So
I love the line, do not surrender your fate to others.
I cannot agree with that.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
More good stuff there, Joe. I just the word conviction
came to my mind.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
And as you know, going out there to take golf lessons,
that's right, all right, it's a big part of what
you do.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Conviction, be convicted, Know what you believe in and be
convicted in it.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Good luck on the course and we'll see it next time.
By the book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Yeah, if you get a chance to check out Tom Sagudo,
his videos are outstanding.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
A young guy, a lot of energy. I'm looking forward
to this morning.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
I'll check it out.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
See you all right, buddy, alright man. Bye.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
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The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, and welcome back to the Book of Joe
with me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden and Joe as
I'd like to say, this is the most interesting podcast
on the planet because we like to talk about baseball
(00:25):
and beyond on I'll say a lot of esoteric or
interesting topics. Right, we just don't go to the top
of the headlines for the news. And when I want
to talk about actually a few things today, I want
to talk about how the older player is getting aged
out of this game. I want to celebrate a quiet
but dedicated baseball life, and I know that's close to
(00:46):
your heart, these guys who don't get the recognition and
put in all the years in the game. But I
want to start with kind of an epidemic with pitching injuries.
I know we talk a lot about elbows, Joe, but
have you looked around camps and the number of pitchers
who are straining their lats and their obliques. I mean,
it's unbelievable. Luis Heal of the Yankees, Zach Thompson the
(01:07):
Saint Louis Cardinals, Javier a Side of the Cubs, Andy
Ashby and DJ Hall, the Brewers. I mean, the list
goes on and on, Joe. For people don't know the
oblique muscle, and it is a muscle, guys tend to
strain it from either sudden movements or overuse. I mean, listen, Joe,
you've seen these camps, You've seen those opening day meetings
(01:29):
where it's full of a ton of support people, right, nutritionness,
sports performance specialists. I mean, you name it, and these
guys are breaking down like never before. Give me your
take on what you think might be going on here, Joe.
Because covering baseball in the eighties, I never heard the
word oblique.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Nobody had them. It wasn't a part of the anatomy.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I think it really illustrates the sameness of the game,
meaning that it's almost like the entire industry as one team.
I think so much information is shared and different methods
are incorporated artists of what organization you're with. So if
nobody is getting hurt, because it's the same this is
being utilized in regards to training, technique, nutrition.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Et cetera.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
And if everybody's getting hurt, it's because of the same reason.
I really believe that, and that's one of my hang
ups is that I've always felt that organizations should be
more on their own, don't always just drink everybody else's
kool aid all the time.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
And I think if you saw a little.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Bit more people out there on their own, you're going
to have a couple outliers that are not faced with this.
I know not every team has this right at this
particular juncture, but it's an epidemic and we're not even gosh,
we haven't even hardly been playing games yet, So I
think it has something to do with this information that
is passed among each other and it's taken as doctrine.
(02:48):
And again it's no different than analytics. It's it's always
considered almost like this pure information that is infallible, and
it comes down to this kind of stuff also where
new training techniques are involved, and part of it is
just trying to get guys that throw as hard as
they possible we can, the drills incorporated, the torque put
on the upper body, all that kind of stuff, It
(03:09):
just makes sense that they would, so I really am
into it.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
There's probably maybe a couple organizations that aren't faced with this,
and that's the ones I want to fight.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Okay, what are you guys doing?
Speaker 3 (03:20):
But I think for the most part, it's the sameness
that infiltrates the entire industry.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah, well, you mentioned velocity. I think there is something
to do with that. And it's not just throwing hard,
it's the training that it takes to throw hard. You know,
if you walk around bullpens these days, they're doing a
lot more than just throwing bullpen sessions.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
They got the plyouf balls out.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
There, they got the weighted balls, they're you know, they're
throwing balls behind them and you know, everything is.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
Geared towards throwing the baseball harder.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
But at the same time, you know, you're working your
let and your obliques over and over again with these
short bursts of movement.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
And that's what pitching has become. Joe.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
You know that back in the day, pitchers used to
run a lot, right. It was an endurance test, right,
you know, Nolan Ryan, Roger Clemens, you name it. These
guys built up their bodies to work longer, right, They
didn't work their bodies to work shorter in bursts. But
we have a burst game now. It's just different. But
that has changed training as well. So for instance, I
(04:14):
you know, I was in Mets camp and I saw
Sean Manaya. He's one of a million guys who likes
to wear those wearable nutrition and fitness trackers. Right, how
much effort you're going through in the course of a day,
whereas it on the arm you see the golf PGA tour,
I get it, you know. And really, Joe, probably when
you first started seeing these, there were some players who
were against it, right, They thought they were giving up
(04:35):
information to the club and the club could use it
against them. I think cut teams and players have moved
beyond that. I think there was a trust factor now,
especially guys like Manaya has signed to long term deals.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
He's not going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
But my point is we're doing such a good job
now of tracking every minor detail of how the body
is working, you know, hydrated, not hydrated, over extended, under extended,
And to me, Joe, it's just not working. I mean,
so you have to look at I think training methods
more than just tracking your training.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Agreed, the running component of it. I mean, you remember
when a picture came out of a game. He'd go
out and left field during actually during a game, and
he started sprints in the outfield along the warning track
or something romantic about that isn't there, But you're right.
I mean spring training would begin with a lot of
pictures running, just like at the Angels camp over at
(05:24):
the buttes in Tempee.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You would see the guys just hitting the trail.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
They would run the road up and around the buttes,
around the ballpark, come back around.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
They would run in mass.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Some guys were running solo, but they would run, always,
always running. Then there was a sprint day and maybe
the bullpen guys ran more sprints than the endurance of
a starting picture. There was different kinds. It was really
just about running, and these guys were in you know,
great shape, and a lot of them. Some bad bodies
were involved back in the day. I get all that too.
Maybe the bad bodies never actually broke down like the
(05:56):
beautiful bodies do, but there was There was a different
method employed. It was primarily based on legs bottom from
working from the ground up, making sure your legs were
in order before you get your arm in order. And
then there wasn't just this incredible We called it maximum effort.
Everything being taught today's maximum effort. And like I just
read an article today about Jacob de Grom, and.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
This guy's gotten hurt.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I don't even know how, but because he looks like
he's got no effort at all when he throws the baseball.
But you want to really get guys that seemingly do
it easily. There their wind up and they throw the
baseball and it's almost like they put it on the
conveyor belt. The ball just flies toward home play. You
always look for those guys as a scout, as opposed
to the bumping, grind kind of guys. But everybody's turning
(06:38):
into a bump and a grind kind of guy. And
then I keep hearing about how wonderful mechanics are.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I'd love to know what that means. I don't even
know what that means anymore, because I knew what it
meant as a scout watching, I knew what it meant.
As a coach standing behind the catcher watching a bullpen,
I know what that meant. I knew what the backfoot
was supposed to look like on the ground, how the
back he was supposed to turn over and face the sky,
that that left army either had the front side pulling
your backside through your back I pushing your front side through.
(07:05):
There was different ways to look about it, talk about
it how the front foot landed. You wanted the front
foot to land beautifully and not on the outside or
on your heel. There was all these like really simple
kind of check marks, the length of your stride, all
these things were matched up and really astute pitching coach
even I wasn't even a pitching coach, but I could
recognize all these things. And then of course the pitch
(07:26):
shape and what kind of pitches were going to throw,
and really what's good for the armor, which I mean,
I've always loved this purely. Of course fastball. Fastball command
always number one. Off of that, I would teach every
kid that came in to organization if they did not
have some kind of a change up, the next pitch
would be the change up. After that would be a
real curveball, and then after that the fake breaking balls,
(07:46):
the cutters and sliders and everything else. So if I'm
running that monor league system, that's how I would begin.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
With these guys.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Now, if you come like a skiens equipped with somebody,
of course there's differences, but for the most part, there's
like only one percent schemes on the market on an
annual basis.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's where I would go to.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It's like the tried and true stuff is not even
considered anymore, and it's all mechanically based, and it's all
technologically based without any regard for the human body.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, that's a good point. You make about the pitches
too as well. I'm with you.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think that the foundation of the game had always
been you need to command your fastball right, you need
to put your fastball in a place when you need
to throw a fastball.
Speaker 4 (08:25):
I'm not sure that's well.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
I know it's not emphasized as much because we know
the fastball rate now has going to be low fifty
percent in the last three four years, the first time
in baseball history. So that is not literally the foundation
of pitching anymore, you know, with technology, And I get it.
If I were a pitcher, I do the same thing.
You're chasing these movements and pitches to miss bats. That's
essentially what's going on. And you mentioned Paul Skeins great stuff.
(08:48):
Obviously he's throwing a cutter this year. I mean he's
out of the cutter. It's just another pitch to get
certain hitters out because not everybody has holes.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Reminds me of Max Schurzer.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
He didn't start throwing a cutter until he couldn't get
Joe Mauer out.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
This is back when both were in the American League Central.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Mauer is taking his inside for seamer and just stand
inside it and slicing hits the left field.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
So he got a pitch that moved in on his hands.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
He invented the cut fastball to get Jill Mauer out
and it became a big pitch for him. These guys
are always tinkering, always working with technology. They can follow
the data and the metrics to really shape those pitches.
I think it's kind of cool, and again, I think
it takes a lot of work. And we're doing things
at high velocity and repeating these movements. I think we
need a little more, to use your phrase, Joe, a
(09:32):
little more liberal arts and pitching, where these guys are
doing other things, you know, whether they're playing a you know,
two on two basketball game after workout or running the
old school.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Just have the body move in different ways.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, Necessity is the mother of invention when it comes
to different pitches. And I understand that, and you just
mentioned sures er as he moved along.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Eventually he added the cutter.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I like that when you start adding new stuff to
your repertoire, and especially if you've already been successful and
you are successful, when you start adding things in there.
I was always my concern, when do you throw it?
And when you throw that? What are you not throwing?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
What? What pitch of yours?
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Is taking a vacation a bit because you want to
include this. I ran into that with some of the
rays at different times. With cutters, cutters became very popular,
and I said, really, with Shields the James, I say,
I love James Shield's curveball. He didn't love it as
much as I did. I thought it was a great pitch.
And you know David Price, really off of Shields. They
(10:30):
both developed these cutters and back door cutters became very popular.
And while they're doing that, they're not throwing other pitches
that I thought might be more Germaine prudent or better utilized,
because they were just that good. So when guys start
doing these kind of things, I'm always I get it.
I mean, part of it is the ability that the
way things are done today, there's this this ability, this what's.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Behind that door over there.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Oh, I could go over there and learn how to
throw a cut I'm gonna I'm gonna open up that
door and check it out because it's there. I always
thought that if you're going to get a new pitch
would be after you've been it's been proven that you
that the other stuff really not working. The hitters will
tell you when so I listen to me. A cutter
could just be a bad fastball, you know, because it's
not thrown as hard normally. The same thing with the
slider that's used too often. So it happened to the
(11:17):
Red Sox last year and they just threw it to death.
So anyway, there's there's probably going to be some kind
of upfront, original up tick. I would think something that
might seem interesting, but to do it over a period
of the year, let's just see how that all shakes out.
I was always larry of that, especially with good guys,
Especially when good guys when they've not been getting hit
around a lot. I was always concerned when they wanted
(11:38):
to add something new, because while they're throwing that, they're
not throwing something else that they're really good at.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Well, I think at the very least Joe. I think,
not to say they're not doing it, but the industry
has to really re examine I think training techniques for
pitchers and not just you know, sign up for all
these oblique injuries and lads that are putting guys out
for six to eight weeks as the cost of doing
business of training for velocity, that's unacceptable. They have to
find out, you know, what is going on here, what
can we do differently. I'm sure the industry is doing that.
(12:05):
I'm not sure what the answers are, but I would
not accept this as just that's the way pitching is
these days.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Let me just interrupt real quickly one second. I mean,
and I should qualify myself here. I mean, I haven't
been out there, you know, more recently over the last
year or two to really watch this in person. So
I'm just speaking anecdotally about what I've seen in the past,
and then combining that what I read and obviously what
we talk about here. These are my concepts as of
(12:32):
like twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, when I stop
managing at that point, but I'd be curious, I mean,
for me to really really give you one hundred percent
died and exactly what I believe, and I'd have to
see more of what's.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Going on with my own eyes.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I'm with my own eyes kind of a guy, because
when you hear things, when you read things, even statistical
information like that, I still have to look at that,
maybe that info, and then apply my own sensibilities, my
own experience to what we're talking about here. So when
I talk about this stuff, it's probably two year old vision,
three year old vision, but I still believe it's Germaine.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Now let me move on to something real quick. Joe,
it's jose Al Tuove the Astros. They're moving him from
second base to left field. I think this is really
interesting because if you go by defensive metrics, the last
couple of years, he has been a really poor defender.
I'm not sure what that means anymore, because I don't
necessarily trust defensive metrics to be absolutes.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think maybe as a rule of thumb, they work.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
So they want to play Maurice Dumont at second base
and move out two Vey out to left field.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
It's interesting to me, Joe, that you make a move
like this.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Is a franchise player, obviously has been one of the
great second basement of the game of his generation for you, Joe,
as a manager, when you evaluate players, and obviously you
need player like this to buy in and do it,
and he has. What do you think would spark your
interest or decision in moving a franchise player off his
natural position this late in a career.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Eyeballs versus analytics.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
I mean, I mean, they could easily back up their
decision analytically, but I'm sure they're looking at a first step,
some kind of a move is turning a double.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Play and they're overlaying.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Uh the fella's names, was it, Dude, Dubon, Dubon, Yeah,
he's he's they're overlaying him over top of this guy
and what that would look like. They're probably looking for
a better range, more accuracy with the glove, meaning like
when he goes to his right, that backhand to his right,
that it's caught cleanly.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The foot's plan and the throw is accurate.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
There's different things they're looking at that they believe Dubon
is better at than this guy is right now, and
that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
They probably have.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
They have an opening and left field. They feel that
their infield defense is more solidified up the middle. It's
about a'll two of a yes, but it's more about
the other guy, because if this Dubon wasn't ready to
do this, and if they did not feel that there
would be better with him, it would not be happening.
So for me, it's like, yeah, you could talk about
the metrics and all that other kind of stuff, but
I'm with you on that. I've always been a little
(14:54):
bit skeptical of all those numbers, but I would say,
my eyeballs, I think it would be easy to watch
these two guys state ground balls or watch him in
the spring training game, and there's going to be certain
you're going to look out that the one fella is
absolutely better than the other, and then.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
You put all two bay and left.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Now, they put him in left field at home, which
is a small outfield, which there they like that to
throw shorter, but when he goes to different ballparks it
could be different, like bigger left fields, more room to cover.
That kind of stuff become more concerning. I doubt that
they're going to move him from right to left based
on the depth of the field, something we did with
Schwarber a bit when he first started playing the outfield
(15:31):
with the Cubs.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
There's certain things.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
You can do to mitigate the lack of arm strength,
which I don't think he's gonna have like really great
arm strength from the outfield, although he's been involved in
cutoffs and relays for a bit. But again, last point,
I just think it's an overlight what looks better. You
don't need a stockpile of information to tell you who
was better at second base for us right now. You
just got to look at it and watch these two
(15:54):
guys play and make that determination.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Yeah, a good point about the arm strength.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I mean, the arm was an issue at second base,
and now moving him in the outfield. You know, I'm sure,
especially early in the season, you'll see a lot of
third base coaches taking chances. Absolutely I OASIL two, they'd
being new out there. As you saw with Kyle Schwarber.
It's just part of the game. Credit to him for
making the adjustment. But you know, Joe, this game now,
if you're getting into your mid thirties, the game sometimes
(16:18):
retires you rather than you re tying yourself.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I want to talk to you about that. What's happening.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
It's a lot of good players don't have a job,
but that's something that's been happening year after year recently.
We'll talk about that right after this on the Book
of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe. Anthony
(16:45):
Rizzo still doesn't have a job.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
Joe Medden. It's surprising to me.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I thought, you know, obviously has concussion, some injury issues
in the last couple of years. But what he can
offer a team man, I'd want him in my clubhouse.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Middle class has been forced out. It's either like you know,
the babies, or these the star guys. The guy's getting
a lot of dough and teams cannot live without. And
on the other side of the spectrum, not inflating your
salary structure by adding guys that are more mineral. They
definitely believe they're going to get this out of young guys,
and I think that's part of the reason why we're
(17:18):
seeing a dip in fundamentals and how the game is played,
because a lot of these guys really have not served
enough time into minor leagues. They've not gone through boot camp,
they've not seen instructional leagues, they've not seen all that stuff.
They're really permissive to understand how to play the game.
They don't have instructors in the minor leagues down their
throats when these things aren't going right. I'm it's just
just fact these things aren't being done. So the game
(17:40):
has been deluded a bit only because of the fact
that the people playing it, there's so much, so many
of them that really don't have the foundation or the
base to understand the game entirely. Whereas there's a bunch,
like you're saying, sitting on the sidelines that do know how,
but they're within that price range that the teams don't
want to mess with. Maybe they will mess with them
later on they have an injury or as they get
(18:02):
closer to possibly a playoffs that if the guys available, whatever,
But when you're putting it together in spring training, there's
a it seems like a need or desire to just
go youth and old. I mean, there's again no I
call it a middle class. I've seen it coming on
for years, and a lot of it is attached to
the amount of money you have.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
To pay these guys. That's it, pure and simple.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I mean, there's a lot of teams that would be
better service, I believe, as the ability to play the
game properly if they were to spend more time permitting
these guys to develop into minor leagues and really teach
them the game.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
And while you're doing that, you sign higher.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Some of this middle class that that really going to
augment your team, make your team better, make a better
product on a nightly basis.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
I mean, that's how I see it, pure and simple,
and I think that's what's happening.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Well, I'll give you a couple of numbers, Joe. Last year,
players who are aged thirty five and older who had
enough at bats to qualify for the Batting Championship, there
were only four of those players. The year before twenty
twenty three, there were only four of those players. That's
the lowest ever since we've had thirty teams, and it's
(19:05):
the lowest in any season since nineteen sixty five. If
you go back to two thousand and seven, remember there's
only four players last year who played enough to qualify
for the Batting Championship thirty five and older. Go back
to two thousand and seven, there were twenty one of them.
That's an enormous change in the game. Now, a cynic
would suggest, you know, back in the day, we didn't
(19:27):
get steroid testing. Until two thousand and three, a lot
of guys were writing the benefits of extending their careers.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Unnaturally, there's no question about that.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
But you're right, Joe, I think there is a split
here in terms of what teams want. I will disagree
with you on one thing. I think the young players
are getting the big leagues. Maybe not as polished, but
their skills are tremendous, and they grow up playing a
much higher level of competition, going up against the amount
of hard throwers, for instance, and double A and even
(19:56):
single A.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
They're seeing velocity of young age.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
You think about the travel ball circuit, I think the
competition they're facing is better, and I think that prepares
young players better for the big leagues. They also think
the fact that you know, nobody's coming off the field
in Iowa anymore, who's never seen a three deck stadium
or you know, never been on television and everything is
kind of like this odd wonder these guys should get
the big leagues at twenty twenty one, and they're mature,
(20:20):
They've been in pressure situations and played in big ballparks
and showcase events. So I do think the younger player
now hits the ground running more than before. Now, if
you want to tell me he doesn't know the intricacies
of winning baseball as well, I'm not gonna argue that,
but I think it's easier for teams now to say,
let's just go with the young guy, not necessarily because
(20:41):
he's cheaper. I get that that's certainly a driving force.
I'm not ignoring that, but that the skills of the
young player are so darn good it's easy to dream
about some of these guys.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, I mean, obviously there's some really talented young people,
and I'm just banging on the ability to play at
the game properly or not. I mean, I think that's
what it comes down to as the season's in progress,
when that stuff starts breaking down, that's what lead to
a lot of discussions, arguments. And after all, there's only
a few teams that are really on an annual basis,
we'll talk about this year who we think are going
(21:12):
to really be legitimate World Series contenders. So there's so
many teams that are competing with this concept conceptually the
younger player and again not utilizing the fellows that have
really done their time and know how to play the
game properly.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So yeah, you have a lot of this in the league.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
You have a lot of these kind of players, and yeah,
listens athletically skillfully. I had like a punt passing kick
competition for baseball, they'd be outstanding. Absolutely, they would be.
But if you're going to talk about that's it. I
mean the game of baseball itself, that these standards have
been so lowered in regards to execution of the game.
So right now it's more of a skills competition than
than the artistry of a planing baseball game properly. And
(21:51):
you know what happened with the Yankees last year, and
I just heard about it the other day. I mean,
everybody's concerned about fundamentally and how they played the game,
and they thought the big part of the reason why
the Dodgers did it and they didn't was because of
that pticular fact fundamentals were not in place. And you
look at the Dodgers, I mean, outside of their pictures,
they're they're kind of like a veteran Leyden group. I mean,
hiring Keicky her nanispack the is a reason for that.
(22:12):
So yeah, there's there's all kinds of arguments to be made,
and so whatever I think whatever kind of glasses you're wearing,
or whatever camp you come from, or what you believe in.
That's kind of religion sort of. So I love skillful
young players. I've listened. I could name you names of
guys that spend a lot of time in the minor
leagues when I was doing it, that probably would be
on that fast track that you're talking about now had
(22:35):
they just been born a little bit later. I mean,
if jim Edmonds, Timmy Sam and a bunch of these
guys were so skillful coming out of college, but they
have just been thrust into the big leagues, and then
you would never you know, although Jimmy came with all
the bells and whistles, you know, Timothy became a better
base runner. I could go up and down a list
of a lot of guys, Damien Easley, Gary DiSarcina. You
(22:56):
could have made arguments for these guys that they would
have been like more big league ready if the philosophically
it was different at that time as compared to what
it is today. So I know there's a lot of
great athletes in the game, but there was then too. Man,
when you when you walked around instructional league in the
eighties and you walked into the Cubs camp or the
Mariners camp, like Al Chambers, Tito Nanny, you know, all
(23:20):
the guys with the Cubs, whether it was Sean Dunstan,
Tony Woods, all this group. Of course, Davie Martinez was there, Maddox.
I mean, there was some prolific players back then. They
didn't have a chance to get to the big leagues
yet because well we're talking about there's guys in their way,
like the middle class was still on their way, and
while they were in their way, they developed a better
game or better brand of baseball. So I think it's
(23:42):
easy to say that these guys are more skillful only
because people weren't there to scout these guys back in
the day and how good they actually were.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
The methods were just different.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
The fact that you had to earn the right to
get there was different as compared to now.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And a lot of it has to do with.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
That information analytics and the fact that they you know,
financially speaking, you could spend seven hundred some million on
a Sota knowing that I got several guys that are
paying nothing to play the game for us right now
reasonably well, but not as good.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Some of the guys we mentioned, Anthony Brizzo not signed,
Adam Duvald, j D Martinez, Drew Smiley, Jose Iglesias, Lance
Lynn Patrick Corban, Kyle Gibson. These are established, in some cases,
former All Stars who are out there, and I know
in some cases it's a matter of money. I think
Adam duval has said he doesn't want to play for
less than three million dollars. These guys don't want to
(24:33):
come in on a minor league contract, and at this
point of the year, man forty man spots are golden
to major league teams, right, It's everybody's locked in and
you don't want to lose it. You know, a prospect
because you're signing a guy at a flyer that he
still has something left in the tank. And what made
me think about this, Joe, was the news that Mike
Mustakis officially retired.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
Right, Mike Mustakis, I love him, I love him.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Exactly right, And I remember when he was in Milwaukee
late in his career, they absolutely loved him. Now, he
played well for them, but it was what he gave
that team, just the energy, just a really great teammate.
An example of these guys that we're talking about that
maybe there's not a lot of baseball left, but the
other qualities are actually enhanced as they get deeper in
(25:21):
their career. So Mike Mustakis, you know, I had a
great eight year run with Kansas City. Of course, you know,
won World championship there thirteen year career. Was not a
very good hitter the last four or five years of
his career. In fact, his war his last four years
was negative one point seven. But you know what, he
bounced from the Royals to the Brewers, to the Reds,
to the Rockies, to the Angels and actually went to
(25:43):
camp with White Sox last year. That's when Baseball retired him.
He didn't show enough in camp on a minor league
deal to make the team. So he's actually been retired,
just made it official. So this was a case where
the game retired him. He did go to camp on
a minor league deal and just wasn't good enough, didn't
make the team. But my point, Joe, is that teams
kept picking him up, either trading for him or picking
(26:03):
him up after he'd been released, because of some of
the tangibles that he could offer teams that we're trying
to win. You know, I don't think that need for
that kind of player ever goes away, but it is
getting That path is getting more and more narrow.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
One hundred percent. Okay, So what is our motivation? I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
I'm I'm a second division team for the last five years.
What is our motivation coming into this season? We've talked
about I think we mentioned it last week.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I don't know that.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
What are we what is our goal for this year?
What are we trying to do here? What are we
trying to do over the next five years? Do we
ever even talk about winning the World Series?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
What is our goal? Those are the kind of things.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So when you're constantly you know, you're spinning your wheels
in five hundred land, I mean, that's what a lot
of these teams are just trying to do.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
So whenever you put your team together coming fall.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Into the season, there's gonna be some glaring holes and
then you're going to fill them with lower end regarding
salary structure, like nice looking guys, skillful players. Yes, but
he plugged him in with some of these guys like
you're talking about, and there's a lot of platoon potential
with all the guys you mentioned there guys that are
varieties that hit left these better and lefties that hit
righties better.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
That kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There's different ways to ying and yanget as you're putting together. So,
but what is the motivation of the organization going into
this year? I mean, do people really talk about winning
the World Series? And do they have a five year
plan to win the World Series? Or do they just
have a five year plan to compete? That's what it
really looks like. It's almost like you succumb to the
big spenders and say there's no way we could keep up.
(27:27):
I mean, you just all you hear about is the
money spent and the acquiescence of those groups as being
the only groups that have a chance to play in
at the end of the season, the last game of
the year and win it. So that's where I get
hung up. Even with the two thousand and seven Rays.
I can't say the six because we were really bad,
But at the end of the two thousand and seven Rays,
I started seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.
(27:48):
And you know, it was at the end of the
tunne where the Yankees and the Red Sox and look
at those rosters. That was some good stuff going on
back then really good stuff, and there wasn't a whole
lot of babies on those teams. It was really pretty
much a formidable group of established major league players augmented
by others that might not have been superstars but were
really good. So when they did a platoon on you man,
it was it was a formidable platoon. So I don't know,
(28:11):
we've moved so far away from that. I know it's
just a different it's different methods, it's different philosophically, and
it's all driven by math. But what is our motivation
going into the season, and what is our next motivation
over the next five years, and how we're going to
get there?
Speaker 2 (28:25):
I just question that sometimes.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, you're not wrong, but I can tell you it
actually goes on with teams trying to win the World
Series as well. I'll give you an example. The New
York Mets. They found gold last year in Jose Iglesias.
Right started the year in triple A, and my goodness,
he developed into one of their best clutch hitters. No question,
his influence on the team in the clubhouse was huge.
But you know what, the more he played as we
(28:48):
got deeper into the off season, you know, the clock
kind of struck midnight on him. And you know, the
Mets looked at this guy and he saw declining skills.
He always known for his hands in glove, first step
quickness not great, range not great, and teams began to
handle him offensively later in the year. So do you
bring him back? Well, they signed Nick Madrigal instead to
(29:09):
basically be their Jose Iglesias kind of do everything infielder.
Madrigald gets hurt in spring training, I'm sorry, broke his
shoulder out for the year, So you think, well, maybe
they bring him in now. No, now they have Luis
on Hail Acunya to be that guy in the infield,
young player. I don't know how you feel about young
players being utility guys, but you know that's what the
role is. And if you line them up for a tryout,
(29:31):
you would pick Acuna over Iglesias ten times out of ten, right,
So I think even in this case, the confidence in
the younger player after you've had the older player. And
I know the Mets fan is just loving Iglesias and
why not for the OMG and everything he gave the team,
But it's a cold business, and I think that.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Acona is just the better player, so you go with
the better player.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I don't disagree with that at all.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I mean, and you're talking about I have no problem
breaking in a young player as a utility guy with
the Angels. We did it with Sean Figgins in the
early two thous thou and then with the Rays. When
bj Upton first came up, I wanted to make him
into a utility guy. And I think it was the
second year, first or second second year he played second base,
Remember bj, We put bj at second base, and my
(30:16):
thought was, I told him the show up with all
kinds of gloves. I want him to work at a
whole bunch of different positions. And I thought if we
did that, he would spend more time thinking about his
defense and would just react more offensively and just hit.
And I thought he would benefit from that. He ended
up playing second base, and I was on his way
to a very good season before he blew out a
I think it was his achilles running down to first
(30:37):
base at Joe Robbie Stadium that time, Ben Zobrist. When
Zoe came up, it was obvious he was here at
a shortstop, but that wasn't really going to work. But
then here's this guy that once we stuck him in
the outfield, he became, you know, one of the most
prominent super utility guys possibly had ever played. I mean,
Zoe was that good. So I have no issues with
that whatsoever. None, And I don't want to misrepresent this.
(31:00):
I love young players absolutely. I love young players, and
I love young players that deserve to be there and
can handle it and all that kind of stuff. But
I also love middle class I love a lot of
good baseball players that could augment your group because they
have good skills on the field, they don't make mistakes,
and like you had already mentioned, the clubhouse benefits too,
So it's a fine line that you.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Got to walk.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I just don't like the fact that they're just totally
pushed out of it. He talked about Riz. I've just
been texting with that and hopefully have dinner with them soon.
But guys like this, I mean, how does that happen?
He is if you put him in and played him
the proper number of games. And we've talked about this too,
the way first basemens are considered these days compared to
the past, he could easily be a wonderful platune at
(31:43):
first base. Match him up the way you want, He's
still an outstanding field. I know what the metrics might say,
but the guy, he's one of the best throwing first
basemen I've ever had. Nobody even talks about that what
he does with his arm. And I think if you
played him less and put him in the right spots
and maybe just drop the DH spot on him once
in a while, you're gonna get a better product from
him too. So anyway, you could go back and forth.
I love young players one hundred percent. I love a
(32:05):
lot of these young players that are playing. I'm not
arguing that point, but I still love really well rounded
baseball players, liberal arts players, guys that know how to
play the game wholeheartedly fully, and that's that's what you
see missing. A lot and a lot of the guys
that are being pushed out are able to give you
that kind of game, but not given the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
There's no doubt they're getting squeezed out of the game.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
When we get back Joe, the term baseball lifer, I
mean that is a term of endearment.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
You've got to hear some of the stories about one
of the baseball lifers we lost in the last week.
We'll do that right after this on the book of Joe. Well, Joe,
(32:50):
I'm sure you can appreciate the life of one Bobby Malchmus.
He was born on the fourth of July in nineteen
thirty one in Newark, New Jersey, so right into the
Great Depression.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
He did make it to the big leagues.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Play six years in the big leagues, mostly as a
utility guy. He got one run in every j job
at shortstop for the Phillies and sixty one we'll talk
about that. But he went on to manage in the
minor leagues. He nine years managing the minor leagues, Joe,
never above a ball, Eugene, Spartanburg, Watertown, West Palm Beach,
(33:25):
Lewis and Idaho, Miami, Bluefield, Lodie. He's with the Phillies,
the Expos, the Orioles organizations. I mean nine years never
above a ball. That is a lot of buses. And
from there he went on to be a scout for
Cleveland for a long time. He passed away at the
age of ninety three. I mean, think about a life
(33:46):
like that, Joe. I mean, there's so many you think
about all the people that he touched right, whether they
made it to the big leagues or not. Now, his
first managing job in Eugene, he had Buck Martinez and
Stump Merrill on that team, two future major league managers.
So you know, I just want to recognize somebody like
this because his name was never in the headlines for
(34:07):
the most part.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
And what a full life dedicated to the game of baseball.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
Man, I mean, you're just making me almost cry. I mean,
that is That's it. That's baseball right there. That's what
baseball should be all about. Stories like that, I could
really well reflect and empathize with a lot of that.
The bus riding and amount of time spending the minor leagues,
the buses, et cetera. The outposts, like you said, the
lives impacted all these players that he did impact it
(34:31):
nobody would ever know about. But purely the romance. That's
where the romance and the level of the game really exists.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
That's pure.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
That's like Division III football or baseball in college, or
even sometimes Division two where it's.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
More more real.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
I do cherish stat I'm so grateful that that was
my path to getting to the major leagues and eventually
becoming a manager. I'm so grateful that I spend all
those years in that kind of a situation. That's where
you really learn your craft, not only about baseball, but
people in general, how to deal with situations, things that
are not perfect by any means, adaptation, on the move,
(35:10):
all that stuff occurs when you're faced with those kind
of moments daily. So man, I seriously, that is really
heartwarming and endearing to hear all that, And having said
all that, it will never happen again. The way that
the game is structured right now, you're not gonna hear
about people like this anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And that's a shame.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
I mean, thinking about Tom Kauchman, when your coach's son,
Casey played in the Big League's coach was with the Angels.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
He and I came up together.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Koach was in rookie ball for so many years I
don't even know how many years in Boise, Idaho and
other outposts. And he was with the Red Sox too,
and you never wanted to move him higher than that.
He got up the Triple A as a manager, but
I never wanted him out of a rookie ball because
his impact was so great. He was like the guy
that broke these guys in annually. And you ask anybody
(35:56):
that played for Coach back in the day. We talked
to Sean Perty Rock Perty's dad, he played for Coach.
I think Kotch signed him as an example. Those are
the kind of guys. When you mentioned this fellow, that's
immediately what I think about. Cotch was invaluable to the
success of the Angels for so many years, and nobody
ever talked about it, Nobody ever mentioned it. I knew
(36:18):
that Jeter Hines another guy that was like that. These
are the guys that really make a difference in a
lot of lives of young people. People that you never
see make the big leagues, but having been coached and
touched by these different guys really makes remarkable changing the
lives of these players.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
So yeah, fella's name again one more time, Tommy, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (36:38):
Bobby Malcolmus.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Bobby, Bobby and Kotch they sound like a lot of
the same guy you know, and Coch Coach is like
one of the most dedicated baseball people I've ever met.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, it will not surprise you that one of Bobby's
early mentors was Gene Mark.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
There you go.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
The nineteen sixty one Phillies. Bobby.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
That was the one time that Bobby had a chance
to play really every day. Wow, this is amazing. Nineteen
sixty one Phillies. He actually got an MVP vote, Bobby Malcomus,
he finished twenty second, He got a vote. He hit
two thirty one for a Phillies team that lost one
hundred and seven games, and someone put him on his
MVP valley. First of all, gen Mock played him because
(37:18):
he knew that this guy was a quote unquote winning ballplayer,
right the intangibles that he saw. But a guy who
hit two thirty one with the two seventy six on
base percentage actually got an MVP vote because I think
back then people appreciated what a winning ballplayer was. Let
me tell you about this sixty one Phillies team, Joe.
They have one point, lost twenty three games in a row.
(37:39):
They went basically an entire month without winning a ballgame.
They finally won the second game with a doubleheader against
the Milwaukee Braves, breaking the Braves ten game winning streak.
Isn't baseball great? By the way, a team that loses
twenty three in a row beats a team that won
ten in a row. They go back to the clubhouse,
the old County Stadium, Milwaukee, and I'm sure remember that place. Yeah,
(38:03):
spare and cheese and crackers and beer. That was a
postgame spread, big celebration there, Gene Mark. They have the
photographers in there to celebrate like it's the World Series.
Speaker 4 (38:14):
And they asked Mack to hug the picture. Who won.
A guy by the name of John Buzzheart And by
the way, it's just so good.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
He was from Prosperity, South Carolina. They asked them to,
you know, post for a picture. Jean, put your arm
around him.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
Jene talks about his team. He says, I never saw
a group of guys stick together the way this team did.
But they asked him to smile, Gene, he can picture this, Joe.
He had a hard time smiling. He actually said, how
has a guy who's won one out of his last
twenty four games crack a smile and joke around. He
just couldn't do it, but he did take the picture. Anyway,
(38:51):
the Phillies come home. The road trip ends. They fly home.
They land at the Philadelphia Airport at one o'clock in
the morning in a rainstorm, and there's five hundred people there. Tom,
there's actually a band called the Last Battalion that is
playing songs as the Phillies, losers of twenty three straight
(39:13):
breaking the streak, walk off the plane. The fans create
an aisle for them to walk through while the band
is playing to welcome this team home at one o'clock
in the morning during a rainstorm.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
How great is that?
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Amen?
Speaker 3 (39:26):
That that exceeds anything that could possibly watch on social
media today, any kind of video clip that is heartwarming.
And I could just say, I thought you were gonna say,
Jean flipped the spread.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
I thought you were gonna go there.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
That's one went out of twenty four games that see that.
Those are I know there are times gone by. He
ain't coming back. It's never going to be that way,
and I get it. But those when I think of
sending through baseball and how I started out, that's those
are the kind of stories that make it all worthwhile.
That is why as a kid I wanted to do baseball.
(40:00):
It was larger than life. I don't even know if
I could say that anymore, but it was. There was
such a connection to every part of the country, every kid,
every father, a lot of moms too, man were into
my mom was there's such a strong connection with all that,
the grassroots component of it, that it's just the time
going by.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I get it.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
I know you get accused of being nostalgic or whatever,
but that's that's real right there. That's that's that's that's uh.
That's Division III college football or baseball whatever.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
That's what that is. And the fans showing up.
Speaker 3 (40:31):
I that that in and of itself is worth a movie,
that that whole day, if they could recreate that or
a mini series.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
I mean, that's that's all right.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
That's the stuff that to me, that we're missing, the
fact that you can't get any more pure in regards
to why you're doing something. It wasn't about money, it
wasn't about fame or acclaim. It just because they really
did love the game. And and that's that's the part
that I think some guys have yet.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
But it's a lot don't just the.
Speaker 3 (41:01):
Way the day is formulated, the way they pressure's mouth,
the scrutiny involved, all this other stuff that technology I
still believe subtracts emotion and connection because it just it
just does its way too sterile. So anyway, days gone
by let's do the mini series. Let's contact Netflix or somebody.
But that's a hell of a story. Well done, man,
(41:23):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
The Pride of Newark, New Jersey Bobby Malkmus. He was
ninety three years old. He went to Southside High in Newark,
then Saint Benedict's Prep and was signed.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
By Honey Russell. Is that name ring a bell? Honey Russell,
the old basketball coach at Seaton Hall. It was the game.
He was a scout as well.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
That was back in the day when you had these
gurus who you know, cross pollinated in sports. They were
just good teachers, educators, you know, analysts, whatever you want
to call them. You know, they knew what a winning
ball player was, no matter the sport. So these guys
contributed to multiple sports. Honey Russell was one of those guys,
a longtime scout as well as a Hall of Fame
basketball coach. He was the one that gave Bobby mal
(42:04):
Miss a chance of the game and was rewarded with
a lifetime to the game of baseball.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Seriously, that is such wonderful stuff.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
And I mean just drove up to South Carolinias that
I have been waxing nostalgic to begin with. And now
you're going to go on this trope for me, right now,
that's going to I'm not going to cry, but god dang,
you're starting to hit some strings.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Man.
Speaker 3 (42:24):
That's such good stuff because I'm thinking about all the
different scouts. It was Gene Thompson and all these guys
back in the day, Bob Aloo, Bob Clear is in
our book. That's what baseball represents to me. These kind
of thoughts, these kind of memories, and nobody's capable of
generating these kind of memories or thoughts anyway.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
I really don't think so.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
It's just too complicated, too much involvement by things out
of your control as opposed to just being able to
control your own destiny. Sometimes it's too bad. I mean,
this is the kind of stuff that novels were written of,
that movies were made of. I like we're just talking about,
and this is the kind of stuff that when you
have a chance to sit in a room by yourself
and ruminate on, these are the kind of things that matter.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Well said, Joe.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
And speaking of well said, you always bring us home
with some words of wisdom. What do you have this
week to end this episode of the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
We're on point, Buddy, right point. I got a fello
by name of abdu Kalom.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
I don't know who this is, but I was thinking
about the word fate this morning before I drove up here.
Last night I meant Paully's Island, South Carolina. I'm hanging
out for a couple of days here, meeting up with
Thom Sagudo, a very famous young golf instructor. Had dinner
with them last night. What a wonderful personality. And it's
going to be here for a couple three days. But
I'm driving up Paully's Island. You think you're I don't know.
(43:41):
It could have been any year. It could have been
nineteen thirty, forty fifty sixty on rot seventeen coming up
from Charleston. So it became very nostalgic in regards to like,
you almost feel like you've lived here before.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
So anyway, it was fate.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Be active, take on responsibility, work for the things that
you believe in. If you do not, you are surrendering
your fate to others.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
And that's it.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I mean, that's I think that really sums up you
know what I believe in general. In these days, I
think we do surrender too often, and when you do
try to stand up to what you believe in, you
get shot it down sometimes you know people will and
then you succumb to the majority when you shouldn't. If
you really feel strongly about something, don't surrender. Don't let
(44:28):
anybody else control your fate. Go out there and make
it happen, make it work. You have to have a
real strong belief. You have to believe in yourself. There's
a confidence level to do those kind of things. So
I love the line, do not surrender your fate to others.
I cannot agree with that.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
More good stuff there, Joe. I just the word conviction
came to my mind.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
And as you know, going out there to take golf lessons,
that's right, all right, it's a big part of what
you do.
Speaker 4 (44:55):
Conviction, be convicted, Know what you believe in and be
convicted in it.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
Good luck on the course and we'll see it next time.
By the book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Yeah, if you get a chance to check out Tom Sagudo,
his videos are outstanding.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
A young guy, a lot of energy. I'm looking forward
to this morning.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
I'll check it out.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
See you all right, buddy, alright man. Bye.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com