The Book of Joe: Change for the sake of change?

Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci highlight the Braves changing their 3rd base coach and how rarely you see that happen.  We touch on the Knicks moving on from Tom Thibodeau and Joe explains why he doesn't understand the move.  Was the rundown with Orioles rookie Coby Mayo just bad base-running or was it a dirty play?  Joe thinks this could show the importance of spending time in the minor leagues.  Why does Tom think the game needs more players like Brewers RF Sal Frelick?  Joe reveals how you create a shift in the types of players you're coaching.  Plus, Joe thinks he's seeing a trend at the plate, but do the stats support it?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey Daron, welcome.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Back to the Book of Joe Podcasts with me, Tom
Berducci and Joe Madden, and welcome Joe Madden to June.
I know on the Joe Madden baseball calendar, things that
are really starting to speed up.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
They are. And actually the weather has too.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
The temperature, my god, it's been rainy and wet up here,
like I think a lot of the Northeast, the temperatures
have been kind of like spring or fall like today.
Eighty five golf tournament happening to my left. I'll be
out there pretty soon. Just got back from Nashville. Tommy
and I did the Tunnel to Towers event down there. Stirring, moving,

(00:52):
incredibly passionate. The program is just so well done. While
he Joiner Fellow that I signed several years ago, he
was the kind of the host for this whole event
out of Brentwood Country Club. Really, like I said, I
really fortunate that they asked me to come there just
to witness this whole thing. We sat with Lee Greenwood
and his wife the night before, had dinner. Just truly

(01:15):
an inspirational weekend. So it's been a good couple days.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Did you have time to check out the live music
scene in Nashville?

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Did not?

Speaker 4 (01:24):
I mean got there Saturday night, late flight out of Philly,
of course, and then get there and write to dinner
at a thirty in the evening, get up the next
morning we go play Troubadour.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
The Troubadour I ever heard of it.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
I've heard of it, have not played.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
Oh my god, it's like it's utopia. It's a utopian society.
I don't know how much that place costs, but it's
ridiculously utopian. And so we played that course the next day.
Brentwood also wonderful. So yeah, there was like, no, there
was no time down to do anything other than that
go out to a couple dinners and have and meet

(01:57):
some really inspirational people.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Yeah, you'll have to go back, I'm sure really good town.
Lots to do there, and maybe one day a major
League Baseball team in that city. Yes, for now there
should be to have their hopes up that maybe they
will be in the next round of expansion.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
But Joe, we've talked unfortunately a little too much this
year about managerial moves and firings and You've got to
help me out on this one. This is a new
one for me. The Atlanta Braves get rid of their
third base coach. I've obviously seen hitting coaches and pitching
coaches us as kind of a warning shot to manageers, like, hey,

(02:34):
you better get things straightened out.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
This is a new one on me. The Atlanta Braves
got rid of Matt.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
TUIs and Sopo their third base coach, replaced him with
Freddy Gonzalez.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Freddy's obviously a great baseball guy.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
He's managed and been a third base coach in Atlanta before.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
They're very familiar with Freddy.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
This is more about making a change in the middle
of a season with a third base coach. You got
to help me out, Joe. I can't recall this happening before.

Speaker 3 (02:58):
No, that is unusual.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
There's something there obviously that they're not talking about it all.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
And again, I hate to beat.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
This horse, but it sounds like as he had several
guys thrown out at the plate they consider poor decision making.
Or is it is he also in charge of the infielders.
Theres something else like that that they don't like. What's
going on there. There's more to it. Than just that
it is very unusual to do something like that. I
would imagine getting signs from the bench is not an issue.
Getting signs and the players on time should not be

(03:26):
an issue. So there's something else.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Going on there.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, let me you ask the question as a very
good question, because I thought the same thing the general
manager Alexanthopolis.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
By the way, he said it is fourteen years.

Speaker 1 (03:38):
This is the first time he's ever made a change
in the coaching staff in the middle of a season.
So there's that to begin with, a very unusual move.
And the reason that he brought up was there have
been some aggressive sins.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I feel like we could do better.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Now, let me give you some numbers, Joe, because we
all like to have the data to support theory. Right right,
The Atlanta bread have had six runners thrown out the
plate this year. That's league average six runners thrown out
at home this year. That doesn't sound like aggressive SEMs
are costing the Braves runs here, It's just strictly a

(04:17):
league average. When it comes to overall outs on the bases,
the Atlanta Braves have had only fifteen runners thrown out. Now,
they're not a really fast team. I wouldn't say necessarily,
so they don't take a lot of chances. But that's
twenty first in baseball. I just by data alone, Joe,
I am not seeing it now. There was a high

(04:37):
profile play where Eli White was a tying run on
second base and a line drive single was hit the
center field to Jackson Merrill, and Eli White took off running.
The third base coach Tuosa Sopa at the time held
him up. But before Eli White got the third base,
for some unknown reason other than brain cramp, he stopped

(05:01):
and ran back to second base and then was put
out after the ball was cut off. Now my issue
there with two Ysasapa, he has his hands up to
stop them. I like my third base coaches when they're
stopping a runner to give very distinct hand signals, like
if you want them to hold the bag, point to
the base, don't just put your hands up.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Having hands up.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Maybe he confused Eli White like, hey, you better hold
up because that ball might be caught. But in any case,
if he thinks the ball is going to be caught
or caught, he's got to keep running anyway. He's not
going to get back to second base if he took
off on the swing of the bat, that's right to me.
It was a runner, brain crab, that's all there was.
I can't lay this on the third base coach.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
It got a lot of run.

Speaker 3 (05:44):
You know.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
People just shook their heads like, how does this happen
in the major leagues. It was just a weird play.
I can't put that on the third base coach. So
if you're telling me the Braves who are under five hundred,
the way to attack their quote unquote problems is to
get rid of the third base coach when he's had
quote unquote aggressive sense and only six players throw out

(06:04):
the plate. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
Yeah, there's there's there's. It goes deeper than that. I
would have to believe there might have been some arguments
involved with this. Uh, the the analytical department getting involved,
really pounding into the GM said that these are bad sins.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
We need to do something here.

Speaker 4 (06:21):
I'm I'm certain there's all these different dialogues going on,
narratives that are being created. My first question would be
how many outs where they're on the sense of the plate.
I mean, if there's two outs, it's a two out situation,
you're you know, you're desperate to score runs. Who's on deck,
who's in the hole. What part of the game is
that all that stuff matters? The context does matter. Whathi's
the ballpark? Where's the ballpark is in Fenway? Getting guys

(06:42):
frown under the plate really can happen a lot if
you're going to be aggressive with two outs, which you
should be going on and on here base running. This
sounds like he might be the base running coach too.
I don't know if that's true or not, because if
they're blaming all these base running gaps, they're blaming it
on this third base coaches in their their mind's eye,
they're making up the this, this this narrative that he's
made mistakes, whereas they don't like the base running overall,

(07:05):
they don't like their numbers.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
There's there's so much, there's so much.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Going on right here, and like you're talking about the sign,
it is a cramp I've had. God bless them. Randy
Vallardi one of my favorite players of all time. Randy
would run till he was thrown out. Calando Palmyra would
run till he was thrown out. Carl Crawford at one
of the worst baseball base running decisions. I've ever been
around at the Metrodome years ago where we could have
tied the game, were gone ahead. I can't remember exactly what,

(07:30):
but he returned to a bag. It happens. It happens.
Guys get confused. And you know, regardless of all the
wonderful stuff you do in advance, and you do as
a third base coach, every situation, you look at your runner,
hold the number of outs up you want to return,
sign how many outs you you're pointing in different directions
you're looking, you're pointing at the outfielder's nowhere they're lined up.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Makes you understand this.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
But if this guy made the break on time and
then decided to return, he probably was confused somehow.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
But there's a lot.

Speaker 4 (07:59):
Going I said, this is I'm not into this stuff
firing coaches unless there is a reason within the clubhouse
that it became toxic, and they're not even talking about that.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
That's a potentiality.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
But just to say that he was overly aggressive with
the league average number of outs and then tell me
what were the situations, and who are the arms and
who is the base runner and all this stuff, all
the context matters. To just go and say that that's
way too broad for me.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
I'm with you.

Speaker 1 (08:27):
I mean, getting six guys thrown out at the plate
when it's league average. To me, that's not a reason
to fire somebody. So there probably is more to it.
Don't forget. The Braves have lost some veteran coaches in
the last few years. Ron Washington was their previous third
base coach. Of course, he went to manage the Angels,
Eric Young junior Kevin Sitzer. And this is maybe connected,

(08:50):
but not really connected. Joe, I'm not sure if you
saw it in Philadelphia the other day when A J.
Smith Shauber, the pitcher, it turned out he blew out
his elbow was in clear discomfort on the mound, and
the dugout did not notice. It was only Spencer Stryder,
a pitcher who was obviously his off day, alerted the
coaching staff that, hey, you get a check on this guy,

(09:12):
I mean AJ Smith Schraber was out there grimacing, he
was shaking his arm, and the general manager Anthopolis once
again said, well, he's not a two year old, he's
an adult.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
Basically assuming that it's the.

Speaker 1 (09:27):
Pitcher's job to alert more people that something's wrong, like
stop the game. Or even brought up the idea that
the catcher should see it. All of that is true. Well,
your bench should see it as well. I'm watching the
game on TV. I could clearly see he was in distress.
This is a twenty two year old arm who throws
ninety nine miles an hour. Protect the young man.

Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh yeah, listen.

Speaker 4 (09:48):
Of course there's things you can miss, of course there's
but not everybody is going to miss. Whether it's Borsello myself,
the pitching coach, hitty coach should come up to you,
somebody's going to come up to you. The catcher looks in,
there's all kinds of warning signs, and of course the
pitcher himself normally takes a step forward. He'll get behind
the mounts, not rubbing it up. It's something's wrong here,

(10:09):
and then you get the nod to come on out.
So yeah, it just sounds like there's some kind of again,
a discomfort among the group there. You know, they're the
porch start. This year kind of demonstrates this in some ways.
It's a typical normally, if we just see with the braves,
so I, it's.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
Just gonna be very all.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
This makes it very difficult for them to get back
to the very top of the practice year. In the
beginning they were going poorly, we said, and I think
I said too that I thought they'd get back in it.
They kind of have, but this is the kind of
little brushfires that makes it more difficult.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
Yeah, I'm not sure if they've righted the ship yet either, Joe.
I mean, they've been foundering here for around actually under
five hundred now more than a third away through this season.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Think about their roster too.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
I mean, listen, they started out with Jerkson profar and
left field right and he gets busted for peds, so
he's gone. They tried Jared Keelnick finally gave up on him.
They gave up on Orlando the short stop. They gave
up on Brian day La Cruz. Those are four players
there that were part of their opening day roster that
they had to pivot off of, and they've replaced them

(11:12):
with people like Nick Allen, who's a fabulous defender. He's
not going to hit a lick, Eli White, Luke Williams,
Stuart Fairchild, Alex Dugo. These are all below average offensive players.
So what Olsen Alb's and when he gets healthy, fully healthy,
Ronald Crudia Junior, don't hit.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
It's pretty shallow.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
I mean that that's a roster issue, that's not a
third base coaching issue.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
Agreed.

Speaker 4 (11:37):
You know, they a couple years ago, they struck gold
later in the year when they acquired a couple of
guys and all of a sudden they get to the
World Series. You know, it's part of their I guess
they're they're what they keep in reserve. They keep these
names in reserve. If this is going to happen, we're
gonna go, We're gonna you suggested pivot, We're gonna do
something differently because we've had success doing this in the
past kind of a thing. But the names that they

(11:58):
went to a couple of years ago dramatically different and
better than the names that you just threw out at
me right now. So when it comes down to evaluation,
and I know Alex, Alex is a great job and
they've done a great job. So just it's just everything
seems to be out of character. Something is just a
miss right there right now, and not everybody's comfortable, and
they're they're kind of like searching, seeking for answers right

(12:19):
now because normally they're not caught with their pants.

Speaker 3 (12:22):
Down like this.

Speaker 4 (12:23):
So it's just it's just abnormal, brave behavior and we'll
see how it all works out over the next month
or so.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Yeah, I totally agree with you.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
I mean, they run a really smart, efficient organization and
you know, they just have not been able to find
any momentum this year. We thought maybe it would come
with Ronald the Cuna junior coming back and you watch
him play Joe and it's typical of a guy coming
back off a serious knee injury.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
He's not quite there yet the explosiveness. Listen, heeds it.
He's one of the top five players in baseball. I'm
not worried about him at all.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
But you can't just plug and play a guy coming
off an injury like that. And Michael Harris the second
last one hundred and sixty eight games, he's had a
two ninety on base percentage. He's gone backward, he's a
he's a below average offensive player for the last year
and a half.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
So lots of get straight there in Atlanta.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
You know, I'm not sure that example you brought up
Joe of you know, finding the Jock Peterson's and Rosario's
and the Solaires, all those guys. I mean, I mean,
that's like hitting on three four straight lottery tickets scratch.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Offs, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
I'm not sure you count on that kind of second
half happening again.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
No, that's that's that's a lottery stuff, you know. That's
that's hitting the big five or the big you get
six numbers in a row and it's and you win.
It just doesn't happen often. It's abnormal behavior from this
group when when we start, like we've talked about this,
when you start finding coaches and blaming coaches other than listen,
I've been around a couple of times, not often, that
I felt like a coach may have been somewhat toxic

(13:47):
in the clubhouse, and that that is a difference maker,
because that one person, a player or a coach, whatever,
can bring down an entire group. It's just it wears
everybody down. It's always there, it's always getting in the way,
and everybody's always looking in that direction, and it's it's
it's a rub it's just constantly rubbing against just creating
this RASHT just won't go away. So you got to

(14:10):
be yes, you got you got to eradicate that extra
KT to get it out of here, get that cancer gone,
if in fact that's the case. But just to say
that he got a couple of runners thrown out and
all of a sudden you don't like you anymore.

Speaker 3 (14:21):
That those are the kind of things that bothered me.

Speaker 4 (14:22):
Especially like you suggested earlier, looking for a reason for
them not doing well, to say it was a third
base coach, that's that's really weak.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
Uh, Speaking of changes, I got to ask you about
this joke because I know this year you took a
lot of pride and you get some joy at a
watching the New York Knicks play basketball.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
They go to the conference finals, they fire their coach.

Speaker 1 (14:43):
Yeah, it hits the conference finals for the first time
in twenty five years. They've had four straight years of improvement,
and three days after they get the conference finals, they
get rid of the coach.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Can you explain that one to me?

Speaker 3 (14:56):
No, I was reading about it. I was really upset
when I read that.

Speaker 4 (14:58):
I don't know Tom, but I you know, he was
in Chicago, I think when I was there a little bit,
and I watched the next nixt my second team the
Atlanta Hawks Saint Louis Hawks for my first team. Because
the kid growing up Bob Pettitt and all those dudes
all the way back in the sixties, Lenny Wilkins, and
then it became Maravich and sweet Lou Hudson in the group.
So I've been a Hawk fan, but my backup team
has always been the Knicks, and you know the seventies

(15:19):
when they were really hot.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
And yes, I I thought, I'm watching this.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
My evaluations sometimes is not that a team doesn't always win,
of course not, but they play hard, and this team
really I thought played hard.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
This team very gritty, very New York's New.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
York esque, you know, the Villanova connection, all that stuff,
and and him on the bench with the scal The
thing that I kind of read today was the fact
that maybe he's not always agreeable with some people. Maybe
they meet somebody to not be always agreeable with some people.
I'm talking about front office wise, he got results, man,
and I think there was an issue with him not

(15:55):
playing enough of the bench people wearing down the starters.
I think I had read something like that too, whatever,
like you're saying, they got this deeply again and furthermore,
they weren't as good. I mean, I don't know, I mean,
I know what I know but I thought the Pacers
were more athletic and a better team, and okay, City
is the best team. I can't when I watch these guys.
These guys got it going on, so I think they
should be really pleased they got as far as they did,

(16:17):
and not to blame him for any kind of shortcomings
at this point. And you're right, I mean to take
them to lead them to this particular juncture, and he
gave them. They Man, they were tough. I really respected
that group just by watching him. And you're not always
going to win, man, it's not easy to win every year.
But they went out and on a nightly basis, the

(16:38):
Knicks were going to compete, and I think that's like,
if you could attribute that in some way to your
skip or your head coach, I'll take it. And then
the next point is who's going to replace? And they
had a list of candidates in the New York Post
today potential replacements. Nobody among that group that I saw.
I don't think would care as much about this particular

(16:58):
group as this guy does. And I've been a fan
of his just by the way he goes about his business.
So yeah, I think it's I don't get it It's
just another one of those things you just don't get.
Change for change sake, not not necessarily.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
A good thing.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Again, it makes you think, Joe, there's there's more to
it than what we know, because on the surface level,
it's not apparent why a change would be made unless
they have some superstar coach waiting in the wings that
they want to hire.

Speaker 3 (17:22):
And would that be I mean, that's that's another thing.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
If you got to bring in Jay Wright, would he
coach the New York.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
I don't think he will.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
I mean, I saw that name and it's, you know,
probably the most glorious name out there. But I'd be
surprised if he did. You know, be kind of interesting
if he did. They brought up Keli Party's name and
some other guys. But I mean, Jay Wright's wonderful. I
just don't see him after the doing as well as
he did in.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
The Collegian game.

Speaker 4 (17:45):
Although there's some Villanovadu's there that's probably why the big
talk is there. But he's got a good gig going
on right now, and to go there and expose himself
to all that, who knows, but I unless they have something,
like you say, in their back pocket, as opposed to
just doing it. That would somewhat look differently, But to
denigrate the work to this fellow that had done is ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Joe, we're gonna take a quick break.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
I can't wait to get your take on something that
I saw over the weekend, a base running play. When
does a dumb bass running play become a dirty bas
running play. I want to get your take on that.
We'll do that right after this on the Book of Joe.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe. Joe.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Did you see this play with the rookie Colby Mayo
at the Baltimore Orioles over the weekend?

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Playing the Baltimore Orioles.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
He gets caught in a rundown between first and second,
and clearly you know you're instructed if you can make
contact with an infielder who does not have the ball
and a rundown. See if you can get contact, listen to,
your chances of getting out of a rundown in the
major leagues is what maybe one percent, So that's the
one way to get out of it. Instead, he was

(19:03):
I don't know how you describe this. Clumsy about it,
maybe aggressive about it. I think it was a borderline
dirty play. I'm not going to call it a dirty play.
I just thought it was a dumb play where he
reached out, kind of extended the arms, almost pushed Lenin
Sosa there. I didn't like to play at all. I
understood what he was trying to do. Let me get
your take on it, Joe. You've seen a lot of

(19:24):
base running over the years.

Speaker 4 (19:25):
If you're extending arms, that's not that's that's wrong. I mean, yes,
you're right. I mean when you get caught in a rundown,
you want to kind of like run at the guy
that's supposed to receive the ball, get in the way
from the throw coming from the other side. So that's
that's number one. From a perspective of running the rundown
the defenders, it was always grass to grass, dirt to dirt.

(19:46):
Whoever gets the ball, the other guy that's going to
receive the ball gets on that side. If he's on
the grass side or the dirt side of the running,
you stand on that same side. Once you release the ball,
you peel off to that side so you don't cross
in front of the runner. That's the basic method of
teaching a rundown and from the base runner's perspective. Yes,
you're always going to run at the guy going to
receive the ball in order to get in the way

(20:07):
when you that's fine, and that's fine. And I've seen
guys like go down and kind of like cut an
infielder down a little bit by trying to prevent a
double play.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
And I don't even know if that's legal anywhere.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Based on the new roles, but uh, when you start
extending arms, it's almost like when Alex Rodriguez did the
thing running the first base years ago and he grabbed
it the arm. I think I was even in a
playoff game if I remember.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, I guess Ronson and Royo.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
That was the first play I thought of where it's
it's just the wrong thing to do.

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah, you don't do that. It's just something you don't do.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
And it makes me think, you go back to this
dude's minor league situation and career.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Did it happen there before?

Speaker 4 (20:40):
And that's where that's where when you're coming up to
the minor leagues, you have to have coaches that are
adults and are going to go out and say no, no, no,
we don't do that here. That's not how you do this,
that's not Yes, I want you to get in the way.
I want you to run towards the defender. I want
the ball hitch in the back or the back of
the head. I'm fine with that. But you do not
go out and start grabbing people's arms. So absolutely, that's

(21:01):
that's that's not cool. And in the old days, he'd
probably get thrilled the next time up.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
I was thinking of that as well. It doesn't happen
in today's game. It's like when Bryce Harper was hit
by Spencer Stryder ninety five mile an hour fastball and
the elbow put him out for three or four days.
Everybody in Philly is screaming for retribution. No, the game
doesn't work that that way anymore. I mean, clearly he
was not trying to hit him. Rob Thompson said exactly that,
why would we retaliate. He didn't do it on purpose,

(21:29):
so you know that eye for an eye, even if
he didn't mean it, that's gone. But Tony Manzelino, the
Orioles manager now longtime baseball guy, right, he said it
probably didn't look the best talking about what Mayo did there.
But I think most coaches will probably go not a
bad baseball play. I would disagree with that. I understand

(21:51):
he's backing his young player. I agree that the thought
of trying to initiate contact is not a bad baseball play,
But the way he went about it, I'm more in
line with what haw leanin Sosa saw it. He said,
I thought he'd tried to make a dirty play. Again,
I'm not going to go that far to call it dirty.
I just think it was wrong.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
And then once he was put out, and I.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Think he almost realized he was wrong, and Sosa was
showed that. He was like, what's up, dude, what are
you doing here? We don't do that in the major leagues.
He actually shoved Sosa going back to the dugout, which
touched off. It wasn't a bench killed clearing brawl, but
it did clear the benches.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
That was just wrong.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
On top of wrong, shoving the infielder. It's almost like
he knew he was wrong. I gave Sosa a shove.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
Embarrassment, and you got caught in a situation like that,
sometimes you might become embarrassed. How do I react? I
got to be a tough guy in the situation. Again,
all this goes back to minor league training. I don't
know how long Mayo spin in the minor leagues.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
I have no idea what they do there.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
But again with I really I do believe this to
be true with the reduction in the minor league number
of minor league facility cities, teams, and beyond that, the
reduction in the former major league players that are instructors
now compared to what had been in the past. See,
when guys make mistakes on the minor league level, they

(23:12):
need to be told straight up what the mistake is
and why we don't do that here. And I'm quite
frankly I know it doesn't always get covered anymore because
having difficult conversations is almost becoming a thing of the past.
There's not enough adults to have the difficult conversations where
things are glossed over or or not suggested to the player.

(23:35):
The one thing I used to one of my rules
of thumb with the Angels when I was running the
minor league system was I would say, okay, like if
you and I Tom and I are both coaches on
the Angels, that we're sitting behind the screen in an
instructional league watching the game in progress, and somebody does
something we thought was wrong, and we say it to
one another. The moment we say to one another, it

(23:55):
has to have one of us has to take it
to that player and explain to them exactly the conversation
that we were having, because this guy needs to know that.
My other explanation was, listen, if you think something is
inappropriate or wrong, but you don't let it come out
of your mouth and it's just your property. Okay, maybe
you don't necessarily have to say something, but the moment

(24:15):
it comes out of your mouth to another human's ears
on a baseball field, and you're you're in a position
of a power in a sense, you're authority figure. It
needs to go to the to the to the player
of the person, even another coach who you may have
been talking about. I thought that was the best way
to avoid all these weird little brushfires and confrontation, so
that people get used to hearing this and that that

(24:36):
stems from trust and exchange of ideas and all the
relationships that have been built so that you can have
that kind of open dialogue. So coaches to me, sitting
next to one another, if you've got something to say
to each other about something happening on the field and
you don't take it to the guy, you are not
doing your job.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I like that rule.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Once it's spoken into existence, kind of you have to
acknowledge it. It's out there and you're not getting it
back into the box. That's correct, Joe. I got to
imagine you're probably a big fan of Salf Freelick, the
Milwaukee Brewers right fielder I am. I bring it up
because I was talking to Pat Murphy, their manager, the
other day about this. I think players like salf Freelick

(25:15):
are coming back to the game, and it's a really
good thing for baseball. Sal is a right fielder who's
on pace to hit eight home runs and slug under
four hundred. From twenty eighteen to twenty twenty three, there
was not a single right fielder in the game with
those sort of power numbers.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
I'm talking about qualified hitter, So.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
An everyday right fielder who's not a slug guy didn't
exist in the game. Now you're allowed to do that because,
as I talked to Murph about this, it's so hard
to slug intoday's game.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Pitching these days is predicated.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
On removing slug find out where guy slugs stay away
from there and attack the other areas where he doesn't.
So that is to me, Joe has put a premium
on players like salf Freelick, who can keep the line moving,
who can put the ball in play, who play fabulous defense,
who can run the bases, not just steel bases, but

(26:12):
run the bases really well.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
And those players are coming back.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
You know. I call them high average, low slug guys.
And I know it's not cool in today's game to
talk about batting average. People wanted to mean batting average.
I get it was probably overrated in the past, but
it's still darn important because a hit is better than
a walk, and I want guys who can put the
ball in play.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
That's part of batting average.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
So the number of those players who slug under four
to twenty five and hit over two seventy five, it's
the most in a decade that we've seen, Joe. So
those players like Salve Friedlich are coming back in the game.
I'm talking about guys like and the Brewers have a
couple of them, you know, Bryce Terrang, Caleb Durban, look
around the game, the Jake Myers, Nico Horner, TJ Friedel,

(27:02):
Gavin Lux. You know, these type of players, I'm happy
to say, are coming back to the game.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Joe.

Speaker 4 (27:07):
It's beautiful. They're called baseball players. You know, they play
the entire game.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
Okay, well, I mean I get it. Listen, everybody wants
to slug the ball in the stands.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
But during the course of ear of you hit like
twenty five home runs, what do you do with your
other five hundred and seventy five at bats? What happens
in those at bats? And I know that those the
one run, the one swing, I get all that stuff.
But these other guys, when it comes to damage, it's
like a mental damage. They keep kicking you in the
shins all the time and then and it leads to
rallies offensively, but even touched on the other part, there's

(27:36):
this complete liberal arts baseball player, the guy that plays
the entire game. And on top of that, earlier this season,
there was a controversy with when Murph pulled these guys
out of a game. Something happened with Freelick and somebody.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Else, Yeah Durban, Yeah, Caleb Durban.

Speaker 4 (27:50):
And he played the put the blame on them. He's
he called them out, and that at that moment I
knew that I loved this guy Freelick because you, Murph
knew he wasn't going to say anything back.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Derbin wasn't going to say anything bat. They were just
going to suck it up and be and.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
They they could handle this kind of conversation because Murph's
not easy. I mean, Murphy is his old school as
it gets. He's more of an academic kind of a
manager coach because of his times in collegiate ranks.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
So he put this out there intentionally.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
It was an intentional process, Murph Swatt, and he put
it on these two guys because he knew.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
They could handle it.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
And immediately I always like Freelick, but then and there,
but I knew I liked him even more because how
they reacted to it. They react they did exactly what
needed to be done to keep that clubhouse good, and
also promoted Murph's methods and agenda because he knew these
guys could deal with it.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
So you make runs, you make runs by hitting home.
How about the runs you prevent?

Speaker 4 (28:46):
And how about all these little different nuance on the
bases and again I quantifiable. Could you actually tell me
exactly what it means at the end of the year,
because it's so much easier to just look at a
slug then say this guy's a good baseball player because
of his slug whatever.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
But this other stuff man on a nightly.

Speaker 4 (29:03):
Basis, it's so attractive, and you get real baseball players
that understand the game and do the right things and
throw to the right bases, make the right decisions on
the basis, you know, get pitch counts up, work at bats,
and they create rallies and stuff. And I could go
on and I yes, I want it all. I want
guys putting the ball in the stands, but I want

(29:24):
the Freelicks and the Durbans of the world. Also, I
want Nico Horner Nicols a great example of that, David Eckstein,
MVP in the World Series.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
Come on. So there's always room.

Speaker 4 (29:34):
For this stuff, but it's been slowly eradicated based on
the data driven game, which is really what all it's
doing is really creating a lot of five hundred baseball clubs.
Are around five hundred baseball clubs. There's a few outliers,
some of the better teams overall, because everybody's reading off
the same sheet of music, you're getting the same music,
you're getting the same kind of lyrics, it's all the

(29:55):
same stuff. And so when you get out, what are
they just when they're eighth in and roll the Brewers,
they're getting back in contention right now.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
I love all that stuff.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
Yeah, you know, for a while there, when that launch
angle revolution really hit in around twenty fifteen, we got data.
People were in love with launch angle, get the ball
in the air. To me, the prototypical player then was
Joey Gallo, and everybody wanted a Joey Gallo. We don't
care if he strikes out two hundred times. You know,
he might hit thirty five to forty home runs. And listen,

(30:24):
home runs are still super important in the game, There's
no question about it. As it's difficult to hit. Nothing
changes a game and decides a game like a home run.
The five last World Series champions all finished no lower
than fourth in home runs.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
You do need to hit home runs.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
But I want to balance, like you say all the time, Joe,
I want it all right?

Speaker 2 (30:42):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (30:43):
I want to balance and these players I think have
to be part of your team.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
And you bring up a good point too.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
About how speed and base running ability can affect a
game and even bunting. I'd love this is what Mrph
told me here when it came talking about the type
of players that he has. He said, the thread of
a steal, just talk to the pitchers. The threat of
the steel opens up doors because pictures are just in
a hurry to the plate, they're not executing quite as good.

(31:12):
And it's the same with the threat of the bunt.
You look at our number of bun hits. I don't
even know how many it is. I don't really care,
but we try a lot, meaning that we're pretty good
at it, and it changes the positioning and the picture.
What's the picture saying when the guy squares for a bunt,
I'm just gonna throw it in there, and oftentimes it
leads to an extra base hit. I love the fact

(31:35):
that you can, because you have shown different elements of
the game. Bunting and running can affect the game without
even doing those things. It's the threat of those now
that come into play.

Speaker 4 (31:46):
You're leading us into the quote of the day afterwards.
What I'm gonna stay with it? Listen, it's all of
that stuff. It's all the above. I don't quite understand
why we've gotten so I do because we did get
caught in the data revolution. We did get caught in
the numerical revolution, and now I want to believe that
you suggested we're getting a little bit more balanced about this,
and only because, like I said, if you look at it,

(32:07):
where is this all leading anyway? I mean, it's all
leading to sameness. The outliers are still the big money guys.
And you've suggested, We've talked about this before, the home
run being so impactful. Part of the impactfulness of it
is the fact that nobody's trying to.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
Do anything else.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
Nobody's nurtured this other more completer balance approach to see
that if it also in fact works in the latter
part of the season in the playoffs in the World Series.
My experience with the Angels and with the Rays, we
kind of had it all.

Speaker 3 (32:34):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
We had really aggressive teams on the bases. We had
you know, weren't afraid to make mistakes, took kind of chances.
We had some pop, but we had some speed. We
caught the baseball. And you play with your hair on
fire all the time, and that's what Murph wants. He
wants guys out there with combustible with their hair on
fire all the time, and he'll take that, and I
would listen, when you're a manager and you've got a

(32:56):
group like that coming to the ballpark every day is
a blast. When you've got a bunch of dudes that
are baseball players that are out there with the solenti
to win any how they possibly can, and then they
have the tools to back it up.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
They have the acumen to back it up. And when
you're talking.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
About with all this bunts and everything else, again, when
I was with the Rays, U asked Brian Butterfield. He
was with the Blue Jays at that time, and butter
used to set up their defense and stuff, and he
talked about when he was my coach how awful it
was when we came into town because his meetings were
so much longer. And again agreed, anytime you could create
that when the picture has to split his concentration on

(33:31):
the mount. I've been arguing that for years. That's how
we beat the Yankees in late nineteen nineties and early
two thousands. We split their concentration all the time. Those
things aren't even spoken about.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
This.

Speaker 4 (33:41):
There's no way to put that on a piece of
paper and put on a matrix and understand well the
doubt scale how much doubt are we creating, or how
our little data are we creating with the other team
and their preparation.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
All that stuff matters. It's all part of guerrilla warfare.

Speaker 4 (33:54):
That's the part of the game to me that is
interesting beyond everything else that I don't think enough people
spend enough time on because they don't understand it well.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
It is starting to change.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
The good news is the strikeout rate in Major League
Baseball is down for a second straight year, the first
time if it holds up, that it's happened in two decades.
And the strikeout rate is now the lowest it's been
in eight years. And you think about I call what
pitching is today, Joe, It's it's the three s's, it's sequencing,
it's shaping, and it's spin. It is hard to hit

(34:25):
in today's game. And yet we're getting players now like
the Freelicks and the Stephen Kwans and Luis Oreies who
can put the ball in play. I'll go back to
you know a player I think was very underrated, Joe.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Remember Orlando Cabrera at the shortstop.

Speaker 3 (34:41):
Oh see that's my boy.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
There you go, five 'ot ten. Now he was a
career three to ninety slugger. Not great, right, but he's
a two seventy two career hitter. He played fifteen years
in the major leagues, collected more than two thousand hits.
He never struck out more than seventy one times in
the season.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
And guess what.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
He was a shortstop on six playoff teams, including the
two thousand and four Boston Red Sox. When the internal
data of the Red Sox said they couldn't win with
no more Garcian Para and he's defensive metrics at shortstop.
They made that switch in season, and Doug man Koevich
was part of that as well, playing first base. Orlando

(35:23):
Cabrera is the kind of player we're talking about, a
baseball player who puts the ball in play and is
not a high slug guy, but as we like to say,
is a winning player.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
The OC is one of my all time favorites.

Speaker 4 (35:37):
We've got to be pretty good friends, man, And I
tell you what, the boy he loved to play the game,
guy that he loved to play the game, really smart.
We would talk all the time. We hung out a
little bit. You got me all jacked up because I
haven't thought about the OC in a bit, but he is.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
All of that. He was.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
He's a winning player, smart player, passionate about Everything's Colombian
kid and we just we just had a blast together.
So it really perked me up. On strikeout gig. Okay,
we pay for strikeouts, you pay for home runs, you
pay for all this stuff. If you want less srikeouts,
compensate for that too. I mean, seriously, why can't that
be part of a contract situation. Why does it have

(36:16):
to be just about hitting putting a ball in the seat.
How about putting the ball and play more often. Anything
you want to see done in the game, if more
stolen bases, which they're attempting to do, whatever, whatever that
is that you want to see more of in the game,
Compensate for it. Pay guys for it, make it, make
it popular to be that. I'm a little little performance

(36:36):
bonuses in your contract. The guy that struck out one
hundred times last year, listen, get down the seventy five
punchouts this year, and you're gonna get a fifty thousand
dollars bonus.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Whatever.

Speaker 4 (36:45):
I that's that's the language everybody speaks. I'm into that.
I would I would much prefer the money being spent
there to move the baseball in situations as opposed to
just swinging at your butt all the time and trying
to put the ball in the seats. It's a paradigm
shift mentally, that's what's going to get I used to
strike out less, and it's being instituted by the fact

(37:07):
that after all this lifting and separating, we're trying to
get the ball and play more often because we're sick
and tired of watching a run around the third base
with less to us, never scoring, or a run around
second base with no outs never gets the third base.
It's called playing baseball the proper way. So go ahead,
go ahead, compensate for it if you want to ball
and play more often.

Speaker 3 (37:26):
Tell some dudes.

Speaker 4 (37:27):
And last point, when I grew up as a hitting coach, Yeah,
my big slugger is it's cool go ahead and strike out.
I don't know one hundred times strike out to fifty
walks or something to that effect. But if I'm a
guy that's not that guy that's putting the ball in
the seats, I want those numbers to be closer to
one another.

Speaker 3 (37:44):
I want the walks and the strikeouts to be bounced.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
If you strike out seventy five times, walk sixty five
to seventy five times. If you're gonna punch fifty times,
walk at least fifty times. Those are the kind of
thoughts I used to try to put in my hitters
heads in the eighties when I first start out as
a hitting coach. All that stuff is attainable. I don't
care how hard these guys are.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Throwing great stuff, Joe, really, I enjoy hearing that. And
the game really doesn't change in that regard. And maybe
the numbers do. The parameters do. Pat Murphy, for instance,
he wants players who strike out less than twenty percent
of the time. The major league rate is over twenty percent,
So find a way put the ball in play.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
By the way, recently, Joe, you mentioned you brought up
the idea that maybe the ball is flying a little
bit more this year.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
You've seen some opposite field home runs.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Oh yeah, well, get out your pocket protector and your
pro tractor. I've got some drag coefficient numbers.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
To run by you. We'll do that right after this.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe, where we dive
into anything including the drag coefficient of the baseball there's
actually numbers that they keep track of this thing, Joe,
And just to give you an idea, I don't really
underst fully understand the signs other than that for every
point zero one increase in the drag coefficient or the baseball,

(39:13):
a baseball that has struck one hundred miles per hour
will fly five feet less.

Speaker 2 (39:18):
And the inverse is true.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
If that drag coefficient goes down, the ball hit the
same way as going to fly five feet farther. So
now you get what we're talking about here, and believe
it or not, the drag coefficient this year has increased.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
It's got up point zero one.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
I don't know, you know this is maybe something that
you're seeing in certain places with the ball flying a
little bit more.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
I agree with you.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
The confirmation bias does seem to look like, hey, some
balls are going out this year.

Speaker 2 (39:49):
That look a little bit odd, But.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
The data tells us the ball actually is not traveling farther.
If anything, it's going a little bit less.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
And this tracks with history.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
If you go back to twenty nineteen, the ball was
absolutely flying. The drag coefficient then was about point zero
three lower than what it is today. That's a fifteen
foot difference. Back in seventeen eighteen nineteen, the ball really
was flying. That's when they started measuring and keeping track
of these things. So the science tells us Joe, the

(40:23):
ball is not flying farther this year.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
I disagree. It's okay, I know what I'm saying. I
know what I'm seeing more OPO flyball home runs. They
show the instant replay and the ball is going like
directly up in the air, and eventually it's going like
outfielders are like stunned when they have to go back
to the wall.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
Let's give it more time. What is that up to date?
That is that like a month ago?

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Or is that that is up to date?

Speaker 1 (40:47):
I mean, you know, over the course of a season,
you would expect there'd be more carry as the weather
warms up, right right, But to this point in the season,
that's what we have.

Speaker 4 (40:56):
Okay, listen, I can't argue with facts. The facts are facts.
But I know what my eyeballs are seen, and I
swear I've not seen so many opposite field homers that
just do not want to come down.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
They look like straight up fly balls when they leave
the bat.

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, it's it's I love the point you made by
the way, Joe, Like, when I'm broadcasting a game and
balls are hitting the air like that, I don't watch
the ball.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
I watched the outfielder, and the.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
Outfielder's route will tell you everything you need to know
about how that ball is carrying. You know, it's almost
like a wide receiver, you know, speeding up to try
to get under a throw. A lot of times you'll
see that outfielder cut across and now all of a sudden,
if he's got a veer back, you know that ball's
got more back spin, it's got more carry, maybe there's
more wind, whatever it is, but the outfielder will tell

(41:43):
you everything you need to know about the flight of
the baseball.

Speaker 4 (41:46):
Are these and as this data numbers? Are these like
in house numbers? Are they independent data? Where's that stuff
coming from?

Speaker 2 (41:52):
It's coming from MLB?

Speaker 3 (41:53):
Okay, then that's let's the way.

Speaker 2 (41:56):
You don't sound convinced.

Speaker 3 (41:57):
I'm not convinced. I know what I'm seeing man balls.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
Flying Yeah, well, I'm telling you I I'm seeing the
same thing.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
The data so far doesn't really back it up.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
I will tell you, though, that the offensive numbers have
started to pick up as you mentioned when we started
this show, not just in the Northeast. I think the
weather's kind of been crummy early in the season, and
it's only now and I think it's late in general.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Really starting to pick up.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
I don't know if you're seeing that where maybe the
ball's flying a little more.

Speaker 3 (42:27):
It could be I wasn't looking for it, you know.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
I'm just what I do in the morning is because
it's hard for me to watch all of these games,
especially when I have so much other, so many other
things to watch. Seinfeld reruns, you know, So I don't
watch them all the time. But I love the MLB
app for the video recap of the night before, so
I'll go on those and I'll of course they're showing
you the highlights, and you get primarily offensive highlights. You
get some good defensive plays and a pitch now and then,

(42:51):
so it's kind of a it's slanted in one direction,
but nevertheless, that's what I've been watching. It's like, dang,
I mean, I watched the swing and then I mean
not only just like right over the wall, it's like
fifteen rolls back out over the wall.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
And the other day Troty hit a home run, although
that was center cut ninety five.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
Oh my goodness in Fenway, say, damn, you know he
it's threw right into his barrel and it just and
he got his a hack on it, and that's legit.
But I've seen, like I said, fly balls and whatever,
so I'll keep a close eye on it. I'm probably wrong,
but nevertheless I have I know what I'm seeing, and
so we're gonna.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Stay with this.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
I'm not giving up on the theory yet, so we'll
see how it all plays.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Out, all right.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, just to give you some more numbers, because we
do like the data here, home runs and run scored
per game are down for a second straight year this year.
Slugging is at its lowest point in a decade. Ops
is at the lowest point since twenty fourteen. We're down
kind of across the border offensively this year.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Now.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Again, the good news is the strikeout rate is also down.
But this is why we're talking about the South Freelix
of the world, Joe. It's the home runs aren't coming
as often, and it's more important than ever to try
to put the ball in play and make something happen
with the ball and play.

Speaker 4 (44:06):
You suggested earlier with staying away from slug. I know
that was a big part of the twenty sixteen Cubs.
It goes back that far. That was the pitching philosophy there.
When I got there, the slug was becoming like a
more popular term at that point. I know Jimmy Leland
was really into it early on with when he was
with Detroit.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Slug slug slug.

Speaker 4 (44:23):
And so when you get there, all the meetings with
the Cub pitchers was always about staying away from slug.
That was that was the motivation. Make them, you know,
get several hits in order to score as opposed to one.
And so now just it's even extrapolated to the point
now where yeah, it's all about staying away from slug
and like you're suggesting, that's going to require a different

(44:43):
animal to combat that offensively. So again, balance see what
this takes us. I love the idea that the game
is becoming more open minded to real baseball kind of hitters. Again,
baseball players in general. I still want to nurture both
sides of the sole thing. And if in fact it's
there right now and everything else is down, I don't

(45:04):
see a dramatic development where this stuff is all of
a sudden going to increase. So it's going to be
about defense, your pitching staff, your defense, your base running,
move the ball, put the ball in play like Rip suggested,
maybe a butt now, and then it's the game is
being driven back into the Stone ages again, just by
the fact that you've developed the pictures of the point
in Philosophically, we're staying away from slug So I'm not

(45:27):
going to pitch this guy right now. I'm not going
to throw Pitchers throw homers more than hitters hit them.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Yeah, and you know, to borrow your phrase, I love
the liberal arts style of baseball. I want teams that
have many ways to win a ball game. And I
do think whether it was an intended consequence or not,
the rule changes from a couple of years ago are
welcoming that all around player back to the game. When
you think about the lack of shifts, you need some
more range and athleticism on defense. There are now holes

(45:53):
open up on the infield where you can actually and
I know people don't want to hit ground balls, but
you can get ground balls through for base hits. The
stolen base obviously is a lot easier year now, and
they're more attempts so speed plays. I think all these
things are bringing that player back into the game, and
hopefully Joe by bringing up the liberal arts style of baseball,

(46:15):
I'm leading you to the thought of the day because
you kind of hinted at it earlier, we might be
going down that road.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
What do you got, Yeah, well, you're talking about the changes,
like you know, these these subtle changes that seem to
be in effect, the more dramatic changes that have occurred
over what the last fifteen years, where we've gone more
from a I guess like a traditional method of teaching
the game to more of a analytical method of teaching
the game, where that's been the strong shift over the

(46:41):
last I'm saying, what is this twenty twenty five, I'm
saying over the last twenty years, that's pretty much when
it started, right when I first got to the Rays.
And now you want to make another shift, another tectonic
shift where you're going to move They're going to move
the continents around again. So from Albert Einstein, And you
know what, Albert Einstein is almost like AI. If you
take the e office last name, it could be he

(47:04):
could be Ai, the first Ai, which he probably was,
but he said it takes a touch of genius and
a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
Right, So that's how it was in the.

Speaker 4 (47:14):
Beginning, when I first started out with the Rays, we
started moving in the opposite direction. We got you know,
people are honest all the time to think they're smart,
and everybody else in a room all this other.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Kind of commentary. But we had to do that in
order to be competitive in the Al East. We had
to do something differently.

Speaker 4 (47:30):
We couldn't compete with them financially, so we had to
play different kind of game physically and mentally. Okay, then
here you go twenty years later and all of a
sudden takes a touch of genius encouraged to move in
the opposite direction. Maybe that's what we're seeing another moving
into the opposite direction. In regards to softening up a
bit on this more sterile approach, this more five hundred approach,

(47:53):
if I want to be like everybody else, and maybe
understanding that balance is required and almost everything, not almost everything,
and everything we do in life, extremism doesn't work. It
just doesn't work. And you're seeing the politic We're seeing
it all over.

Speaker 3 (48:05):
The world right now.

Speaker 4 (48:07):
The balanced approach, a more human approach, I think is
what we need right now. So it takes a lot
of courage to moving the opposite direction, and mister Einstein
pointed that out.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I love the use of the word that you brought
this up, and Albert obviously is the one who gave
it to us. Courage when it comes to going in
the opposite direction, right, the easiest thing.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
To do is literally go with the flow. Right.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
Yes, So the conviction that you have, even if you're wrong,
but the conviction that you have to go in an
opposite direction, that's where greatness is born. Because I tell
people all the time, and especially as students, you know,
looking for advice, if you want to be like everybody else,
that's literally the definition of average. Who wants to be average,

(48:48):
find your own way, be a little salmon going upstream,
you know, fight the current, and usually that's where you'll
find greatness.

Speaker 4 (48:55):
Yes, fortune favors the bold, Fortune favors the bold. Timidity
doesn't work, status quota doesn't work all the time. I'm
not just saying change for this just to change or
the term progressive to me is such a misnomer a
lot of times because it's automatically assumed that it's something better.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
It's not.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
It's just a it's a different thought to be progressive
as I'm thinking about the same thing in a different way,
not necessarily always a good thing. So it takes a
lot of courage to take that first step. I mean,
there's a lot of things that I've done as a
manager and I know, like, man, I'll come to the ballpark,
We're going to try this today, and I'll hold my
breath a little bit. I'll say, is this, man, am
I crazy? What are we doing here? And then all

(49:35):
of a sudden, poom, corny becomes cool. All of a
sudden it starts to work, and then everybody else wants
to adopt your methods. So if you really believe in something,
if you believe and you put in the time, and
this is this is where a combination of book learning
or the experience of playing or something you've done in
the past, and then it combines data information combining with experience,

(49:57):
and that's where you I think you have more fortitude
in regards to wanting to take these steps and having
the courage because it's not just about the information. I
think it's about your experiences. Also that permits you to
take these kind of leaps, because if you don't have
the experience, probably you've probably tried this in some way
before where nobody was watching.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
And that's really off Broadway.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
You got to try this stuff off Broadway to really
be convicted about it when you get the opportunity. And
I think that's for me, the most wonderful part about
my past as a coach and a manager whatever was
the fact I had a lot of chances to do
things off Broadway before we got there, and then so
when you try them, it might look nuts, but I've
been through this before and I feel pretty good about it.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Corny becomes cool.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
I think you just gave me another thought of the day, Joe,
and for some reason I flashed back to nineteen seventies
fashion leaser suits and platforms shoes.

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Thanks for that, dudes.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
I got my leaders suit right over there in the closet.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
It's a nice I don't doubt it.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
It's right over there.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
What color you got green? Avocado green?

Speaker 4 (51:02):
It's kind of like, no, it's it's kind of like
it's almost like, honestly thought, it's almost like Philadelphia Eagles green,
like that dark green.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
That they got I wasn't far off.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
You weren't far off.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Hopefully you got some Peter Max print shirt with the
long collars to put on underneath it.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Don't you love Peter Max.

Speaker 4 (51:19):
I got some Peter Max not real prints, but like
fake prints, but they're really.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Cool, great stuff.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Joe.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
See your brother. Thanks man.

Speaker 1 (51:35):
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