June 17, 2025 • 51 mins
Hosts Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci weigh in on the Red Sox trading Rafael Devers to the Giants. Was there a way to avoid this or handle the situation better? Joe explains why this might have been doomed at the start. Shohei Ohtani is back on the mound for one inning. How does the team handle his continued pitching rehab? Plus, Joe's playlist this week will be full of Sly Stone and Brian Wilson's music.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Aron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts
with Me, Tom Berducci, and of course Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
There's a lot of news to get to, but we
do have to start with Rafael Devers. What saga going
on in Boston now in San Francisco. The trade of
Rafael Devers to the Giants stunned a lot of people.
You don't see a lot of trades in June, Joe especially.
We have never seen a player with a contract this
long traded this early into the contract.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
But it is done.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Give me your quick reactions to something that a lot
of people did not see coming.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Yeah, too many chefs. It really started from them, absolutely
from the beginning. The way it was handled early on,
I think really led to this particular moment. Of course,
I'm not in the room, so I don't hear all
the conversations. However, just imagine, you know, situations like this,
We've talked about it before, the Jack Ryan meth that
you just it's just got to be straight up from
Jump Street. You got to start the conversation out, don't
(01:14):
hold anything back, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
About hurting anybody's feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Just give everybody the truth from from the beginning, from
Jump Street, and a lot of this possibly could have
been averted. And furtherm we're a more complete plan. It
just seems like, listen, I'm these are smart people, but
to think it all the way through regarding here, we're
going to do this, and this is better for the team.
(01:39):
Breglan is a better player at their base. Of course
it's all true. But then when you talk to Devers
the first time, worried about hurting his feelings, not giving
him the full money. And I think the biggest mistake
was to tell him to forget about his glove. I mean,
if they had done all of this and just set
it up and he understood, listen, we think this is
right for now, but I want you to continue to
(02:00):
take ground balls at third base and at first base
because we believes something may.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Happen down the road.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
And like I said, I think we talked to you about
this before. Let him even play a couple of games.
Give Fregman a day off, give the first basement a
day off. Keep him solvent because he was kind of
emasculated from Jump Street at an early young guys when
they're that young and they're asked to not to just
be a DH.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
It's hard. It's hard.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I mean I ran into what the Angels back in
the day. We had four good outfielders and Edmund Sam
and Anderson and Erstad, and we decided that well, well
just DH one once, you know, rotate the DH among
the four, we're gonna be fine.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
They hated it.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
They absolutely hated it, and it was it. Really we
had to eventually get out of that. Young guys don't
like to do that. So for a variety of different reasons,
it ended up this way, and it obviously indicates they
felt they probably felt as thill, a lot of their
mediocrity has been pretty much engulfed in this this controversy.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, I like you to take that.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
You know, it was a mistake not adjusting slute him defensively.
It just I don't understand why that wasn't done in
the first place. Just say, you're a better baseball player
by just continuing to work on the field. I'm not
throwing you out there seven days a week, but just
to quote unquote put the glove away, huge mistake.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Here's what I don't get, Joe in this day and age.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, can you why can't you just tell the player,
especially after the injury to cause us at first base,
we need you to play first base period. You know,
why are you walking on eggshells? Why are you letting
the players say, well, no, you told me I'm not
a defender, so I'm not going to defend.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
There were two opportunities.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Cossas goes down at first base, Bregmant goes down at
third base. The guy with the longest term contract on
your team said no, he's not playing those positions. On
the face of that, that just strikes me as almost unfathomable.
And why a team doesn't say, you know what, tomorrow,
meet us at four o'clock, three o'clock ground balls at
first base. We know it's a difficult transition. We're not
(04:02):
saying you're going to do this right away, but we're
gonna start taking ground balls toward the end of making
us a better team. It was never really done. I
don't understand that you're right.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
I can't argue that that's wonderful logic. You're one hundred
percent correct, But it's not just in baseball. We were
you know, the inmates in the asylum analogy. It's just
gotten to that point.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
They took a kid, Christian Campbell, his first year in
the big leagues, and they threw him at first base.
A he's a middle infielder. He played first base in
the big leagues without any kind of prep. Right, Josel
two Va, Bryce Harper, Kyle Schwarber, on and on.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The list goes of guys who has changed positions.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And we're not talking about taking an infielder and putting
in the outfield or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
This corner infielder.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
No, you're right, I'm missing it. It should have happened.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
It makes no sense to end up in partying of
the ways, especially because this guy can't hit. I mean
he's he's been one of my favorite hitters, not only
on that team but in the American League for the
last several years. They exiled them to San Francisco, where
hitting is a little bit more difficult generally speaking, just
like when Mo Vaughn came out to Anaheim, that left
(05:08):
field wall wasn't there anymore. You get these really good
Fenway hitters, and I'm not suggesting I don't even know
what his numbers look like away from home but you
take that left field wall away from these guys, it's
a completely completely different mindset when you come up to
the plate. It just everything looks differently in that right
field in San Francisco is short in numbers, long in reality.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So you're right.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I'm not arguing with anything you're saying, one hundred percent right.
It just really was handled poorly from Jump Street, like
you said, and we'll see it all plays out, but
it's unfortunate to have him with these other dudes and
these young players. Really benefits the Red Sox long term.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I agree with that. Long term.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Short term no, I mean, let's face it, you just traded,
like you said, a great hitter, maybe one of the
top ten hitters in the game, and he traded him
under duress. Let's face it, this trade was not made
for quote unquote baseball reasons, because there was an evaluation
of his talent. You know, the team had started to
play better obviously, you know they were in a five
(06:07):
game now six game winning streak. That did not precipitate
this trade. It was more the fact that and I
agree with this from the Red Sox perspective, Joe, this
was not going to get better the emotion of having
your job taken away, essentially at least your third base
position in Devor's case, I understand that. You know, that's
a big blow to your pride. He worked on becoming
(06:29):
let's say, a decent third basement. Certainly wasn't great, but
at a young age that was taken away, and there's
going to be an emotional reaction.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But here we were, what three four months later, and
the situation was still hardening and festering and was not
going to get better. So I understand why they had
to move on here. I think they're better long term, Joe,
I can't say they're better short term without Devers bat
in the lineup.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I mean, this is maybe an offshoot of all of this,
because I've seen this a lot in the In sports
in general today, the front office always consulting with players,
you know, to talk about when they're going to make
an acquisition, just some things in general among the team,
like the stars of the team are nowadays consulted by
the front office regarding potential moves or non moves to
(07:19):
be made. It's always been my experience, and I really
it's not to be taken right or wrong. But players
are not good evaluators. They're not they have their evaluation
tools are really not high standard. They've never really gone
through the process of scouting that'll understand what a player
looks like before it becomes a player or not. And
I keep seeing and reading and whether it's the NBA,
(07:42):
the MLB, the NFL, all these stuff. You hear about
front offices consulting with players before they make a move. Now,
in this situation, the consultation should have been with devors
straight up regarding with what we're going to do and why, etc.
Just to try to ameliorate this this transition with Bregmun
coming there. But overall, I mean, you hear about players
(08:04):
being consulted.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
I'm not into that quite frankly, because just like, Okay,
I'm a major league manager and people say, you know,
who should you bring up from Triple A or whatever
when something happens, I said, don't ask me. I'm not
watching these guys every day. You have to ask people
boots on the ground, people that are actually seeing this
kind of stuff. So, in a weird way, I think
this is kind of like an offshoot of all of that.
The consultation with players on teams regarding potential moves and
(08:30):
talking about them situations in advance. Then you can talk
to me about airplanes or food on airplanes or things
like that. But it comes to personnel decisions, I don't
quite get it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, let me get into some of the explanations, if
you will. The Red Sox president Sam Kennedy general manager
Craig Breslo did address the issue on a zoom call
with reporters before the Red Sox first game without Raffael Devers.
You're gonna love it, Joe, because it's full of execut
you speak right. For instance, Sam Kennedy, the president, said,
(09:00):
we worked at it. We had a different vision for
him going forward than he had and we couldn't get there.
We couldn't find alignment, and we reached that inflection point
and made the decision to make a big move. So
your key there, they were not in alignment. Here's the
key quote from Craig Breslow, the general manager, who also
(09:21):
to me, too much executive speak here, you know, just
speak plainly, speak baseball, please. He said, the whole was
not greater than the some of the parts being great
teammates and sacrificing and stepping up for each other and
embodying this shared vision. We believe those are principles we
needed to be faithful too. And then he was asked, well,
what's the identity, what's the culture that you want? And
(09:43):
he said, each individual is contributing to finding a way
to help a team win, whether that is in the
batter's box, on the pitcher's mound, on the basis on defense,
in the clubhouse, on the bench.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Here's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It's the willingness to step up and sacrifice in time
of need and eventually do whatever's necessary to help the
team win. There's your money quote right there. Step up
and sacrifice and time of need and do what needs
to be done to help the team win. Isn't that
professional sports?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Team sports?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
That's I mean, that's what we've devolved to. I mean
that that is a devolvement. It's not We're not progressing
with that. That's not progressive as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, again, I go back to Julie Franzosa's social
studies teacher at Hazelton High School. Sometimes, often these days
things are better when they were worse. You know, you
get you get all this supposed innovation and quote unquote
(10:40):
better ways of doing things, more efficient ways of doing things.
Numbers don't lie here, all this stuff constantly, But at
the end of the day, it's about people and and
and in this situation, experienced would would would have mattered
a lot. From an experienced mindset, you would not have
heard all that gibberish. Quite frankly, it's insulting, you know,
(11:01):
when you when you and it is exactly you're talking.
You know, we've talked about this before. It's in the
Book of Joe. I'm just not into this stuff. I
think it is. It's insulting. The average fan or the
real fan probably scoffs that this maybe some some of
those in Boston might actually embrace this kind of a conversation.
But at the end of the day, man just again,
(11:22):
speak plainly, man, it's it's yeah, it's insulting in a sense.
I don't like that kind of stuff. And again it
goes back to the beginning with more experience between the
two of those guys, and oak Sam's been there for
a bit. I know, I know Bresla. I was with
Grez a little bit. He's brilliant, he's a wonderful man.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I like him a lot, but get past this kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
And it's not what we need to hear. It's not
what your players need to hear. And it's definitely I
don't think what the fan base needs to hear because
it is insulting.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I understand what they did here, Joe, I really do.
I mean, the bottom line is your best player. I
certainly want the longest term contract here. Didn't want to
do things to help the team win at a time
of need. There's no question that. And again, I don't
think the ask was out of the ordinary. To go
out there and take ground balls, see if you can
make yourself a two way player and play some defense.
That's not unreasonable. As you said, you got there because
(12:16):
established that. I was really surprised and disappointed that Alex
Corey didn't reach this player early on to get him
to buy in, to get out there and just start
taking ground balls. I hated this parlor game they played
when they brought in Bregman signed in spring training, and
they're not even saying that he's a third baseman. They're
walking on eggs shells like, well, we'll see what happens.
We'll let this thing play out, We'll do it's best
(12:37):
for the team.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
No, he's your third baseman.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We all knew that Alex Bregman was not signed to
be a DH and watch Devers play third base. You know,
as you said, just go Jack, Ryan, face the issue
head on.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Now.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
The question for me is how did the Giants handle this?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
You know, is Robbiel Dever is going to take ground
balls for the Giants and start playing third base while
Matt Chapman is on the aisle. Is he going to say, Okay,
I'll take ground balls at first base and see if
I can help there. Or is he going to say, well,
the Red Sox told me I'm a DH. It's all
gonna do. I don't see how he holds that position.
Joe switching organizations here.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, first of all, he just did.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Hit a home run to help them win the day
that he left, right, So I mean, yes, yeah, his
numbers actually were turning out pretty well, right, wasn't he
driving in runcie?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I mean, so, I mean, you know, in spite of
all that, I mean, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Great Bob Clear, my mentor in the minor leagues, when
whenever I wanted to pull a player because he didn't
run the first phase or something. He told me, don't look,
don't look find him, don't look. And eventually I would bet,
I mean, regardless of what I just said. And I
didn't like the way this was handled, yes, but I
think over time this probably would have settled itself. Probably,
(13:45):
But going to San Francisco, the Giants, they're going to
immediately ameliorate all of his concerns. Yes, take your ground balls. Yes,
we're going to place. They're probably gonna do that thing.
We're going to play. Yes, some at third, some at first.
Don't worry about it if if you're really uncomfortable there.
We understand that they'll probably have a defensive replacement maybe
later in the game at first base.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
In the beginning.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
All this stuff needs to be on the table right
from Jump Street. But I believe that they will. He's
gonna take round balls. You're gonna see him on defense.
They believe they can fix this. They're responsible for this
huge contract right now. Well they need to do that
because quite frankly, they can't allure free agents normally to
get there. So all this stuff is in play. But yes,
(14:26):
just hit a home run and helped them win the day.
He leaves, and then yes, he's gonna be this model
citizen out there, because as he goes there, the Giants
think they got this right.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
They're gonna they're gonna they're gonna.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Learn from all the mistakes that Boston had made. They're
gonna make sure to not duplicate them. And then Buster
there along with Bomel. I think the approach is going
to be a little bit different in that sense, in
the fact that they've learned, they understand exactly what went wrong,
they're gonna make it right.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I believe, yeah, Buster is an interesting player in this
case here. First of all, I'm not sure that far
Hans a Edi, his predecessor, would have made a trade
like this, right, No, Yeah, And Buster obviously has established
a really good culture there drawing out his days in
those championship Giants teams. And I believe in this case,
I don't think he's like overreaching the manager here, Joe.
(15:15):
But I do think in this case, the president of
Baseball Operations is a former All Star and World Champion
of Buster Posey, and I think his voice really resonates
or should resonate, with Rafael Devers. It seemed to me,
for whatever reason, Devers had a problem with Craig Breslo
from Jump Street, right, and he publicly dissed his own
general manager, who is a former player, you know, certainly
(15:37):
not as decorated as Buster Posey, but a good former
player in the big leagues. But in this case, I
think with Buster there, he's going to be able I
think at least to establish a commonality with Raffael Devers
to get him to buy into something.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
What that something is, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You're probably right, you know, make yourself available to play
both corners, primarily be a DH but give the manager
options here.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
But I think a lot of this is Buster Posey
driving it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Obviously, he makes this deal knowing or thinking believing that
he's got a way to make this work in San
Francisco the way it did not work in Boston.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Again, it's just I mean, I mean, the most frank
conversations you could possibly have. Now he's I don't even
know how much they know one another. I know Adamas
has already started talking about it. At shortstop. I'm thinking
Adamas and him, we're gonna tell yeah, I got him
at third base, I got him, I got him skipped.
We we're gonna be fine at you. You're gonna hear
that from the player himself. I think that, uh, he's
going to help ameliorate the situation. Also, however, UH, utilize
(16:35):
your experience, be straight forward, don't hold back. We have
an honest conversation from the moment he walks in the door,
and do not sugarcoat it. Don't don't don't fluff it
up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Just say it.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Just say it, and that will be their best way
to get this point across. I don't even know if
there's any Latino Hispanic coaches on that staff there that
maybe Dever's no. I don't know all that, but Baumill
could deal with it. I'm sure Buster can deal with it.
It's a fresh art. Don't make the same mistakes Boston make,
and they're gonna get themselves a pretty good player.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Meanwhile, there was really good news in baseball on Monday
Night show. Hey Otani is back on the mound the
first time in a Dodgers' uniform. It was an event,
and you'll not believe when you hear some of the
things show Hey did in just one inning of work.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
We will dive into that right after this.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Hey Joe, did you stay up late and watch one
inning of Show hey Otani on the mound?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I did not. Last night was a quick exit, buddy.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Well, it was pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
He'd labored a little bit, so what might have been
two innings turned out to be one. But Show hey
Otani his first time on the mound in more than
six hundred and sixty days. He had an average fast
ball velocity of ninety nine point one miles per hour.
This was his eighty fourth game pitching in the major leagues.
(18:12):
That is his highest recorded velocity of his career. Now
you can say, well, of course it's a little higher.
Only pitch one inning. Okay, if you just take the
first inning of every game he's pitched in the big leagues,
it was the highest velocity that he's ever thrown the
big leagues. He hit one hundred point two with his fastball.
Uh and by the way, in the game, he also
(18:34):
hit a baseball one oh five point two.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I think about that.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I mean, I hope people never get accustomed to the
fact of what we're seeing here. He threw a pitch
at one hundred point two he hit a ball at
one oh five point two. Now, the most amazing thing
for MAJO is just a little tableau of watching show
a pitch the top of the first inning, goes to
the dugout, doesn't even have time, with less time between
(19:00):
innings now than it used to be because of the
pitch timer to go into the dugout to grab a
drink of water or put anything down.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Actually, he never went the dugout.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
He had the one of the bat boys come out
and bring him his leg guard, his arm guard, his
batting helmet, and his bat and he basically got dressed
to hit right there on the warning track and stepped
into the batter's box to bat. This guy pitched the
top of the first let off the bottom of the
first inning. Just an amazing scene that I hope nobody
took for granted, But boy, there was a good look
(19:31):
to see showing on the mound. A couple of things
that stand out also to me, Joe, I want to
hear your comments on this, because obviously you coached this guy,
you managed him.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You know what he does on the mound. He pitched
out of the wind up.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You know it's the first time he's done that at
least the state side that we've seen, and the release
point that he had was the lowest.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Of his career.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know, it looked like he was getting down more,
getting more into his legs again pitching out of the
wind up. Maybe that's got something to do with it. It
wasn't drastically lower, but it was lower than anything we've
seen before. So we've got to show hey now on
the mound, throwing harder than ever, lower release point out
of a wind up.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Well as well that first anything he's rehearsed, that he's
got that down. Interesting though, the fact that he they
don't want this to happen again. I'm sure they went
through this, I don't know, exercise and put videos out
there and whatever. The guys get hurt, guys that don't
get hurt, Tommy John, but whatever. If they lowered his armstroke,
they probably somehow determined that that may have been part
(20:32):
of the reason why this has happened, and by lowering it,
maybe that's also to encourage him to pitch at the
top of the strikes on a little bit more often.
We'll see, But it just seems like therews a conspiracy
there to avoid this again. And we're going to do
this through a mechanical adjustment nests. The best time to
make these kinds of adjustments is after a serious injury, honestly,
(20:53):
because after you've been sitting for a while and you
come back, you're going to restructure the way you're throwing
based on a pretty severe injury.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Again, that would be the time to do it.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
So they probably took a lot of stuff in consideration, obviously,
And that's interesting now the one as it turned out
to be winning and one hundred miles an hour.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
You're making me think, are they even thinking about bullpen?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I don't know, No, no way, can't do that.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's too unscripted. You got to stick with the script.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I agree, But they're seeing one hundred miles an hour
at at what any gig. It's going to be kind
of interesting. My point was, we talked about this yesterday.
I think they're going to this is his rehab assignment.
They're going to get him stretched out to five by
the All Star break, and then post All Star break again,
they'll work it backwards and try to figure out how
manyenings they want to get him into prior to and
(21:41):
then including the playoffs. But I got to watch this
because the lower armstroke interesting. I could see it in
my mind's eye kind of like that. I don't know
what it did to his breaking stuff, because this guy
is like, wow, crazy good breaking stuff to shoot though
the split, and he's one of those things, like Hugh Darbt,
they create on the run. They just unbelievable feel for
(22:01):
the game of pitching. So, yeah, you're right. I hope
we never get used to this. Everybody talks about the
next one. I don't know when that's gonna happen. I'm curious.
I'm saying at least a generation, possibly even longer. This
is this is weird stuff. This doesn't happen easily, and
he does. He does it so seamlessly and elegantly and
like without even an effort.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
He's just a different cat.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, you know you saw this.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
When Shoe first got here with the Angels, his arm
slot was much higher, you know. Even going from then
to last time we saw him on the mountain in
twenty twenty three, his arm angle went from forty five
degrees to thirty six degrees, so it's been evolving a
little bit lower. I took it to me last night
watching him pitch that he was more into his legs.
(22:44):
I don't think his arm angle actually changed all that much.
But to me, the other thing that was really interesting
Joe is the way he threw his two seamer. I
think Showey's gotten on board with a lot of pitchers
out there in the game today who are throwing a
lot more to seamers, just shaping the ball. For Instancean
when he last pitched in twenty three, he threw six
percent sinkers. That's it last night, and again it's a
(23:09):
small sample, sid it's all we have to go on.
Though he threw twenty nine percent two seamers, eight of
his twenty eight pitches were sinkers. He came out throwing
sinkers to Fernando Tatis at the bottom of the zone.
So to me, that shows that maybe we're going to
see a different show, almost Zach Wheeler esque, where we
always know he's got that high velocity for riding for steamer,
(23:30):
and now he's got that two seamer that he can
you know, run either at the bottom of the zone
or especially in on right handed hitters.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I mean, when you say that, my thought would be
the ability or the thought of pitching more to contact
and getting more early count outs, possibly to again to
save maybe uh pitches thrown during the course of a game,
because nobody talks about early count outs anymore. Nobody talks
about pitching the contact anymore, and let your defense play.
That was that was a rallying cry back in the day.
(23:57):
I loved one of my pitchers did that. God, I
just loved when the first pitch out. That was such
a boon to you know, getting your guys more deeply
into games, all this stuff that's no longer emphasized. So again, again,
I don't know what the rhetoric is right now. I've
not been around in Dougoutson in clubhouses, so I don't
know for sure. But the two seam fastball getting underneath
(24:19):
the riety, if it's really good's that's always been a
positive that in a way to the lefty, though, I'm
curious how that reacts because sometimes you know, that's just
a less normally it's a lesser fastball velocity wise, you're
throwing into the sweet throwing to the thicker.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Part of the bat.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
To the lefties, I'd have to see all this stuff.
But overall, overwatching point, I think I'm curious if this
is more of a thought of pitching the contact and
getting more early count outs and saving some of that
velocity for later in the game.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, and speaking of velocity, it wasn't just the fourth seamer.
Everything that he threw is up a good two miles
an hour. Now, obviously there's got to be some adrenaline,
right absolutely. You know, you know how much this guy
loves the pitching side of the game. I mean, he
loves everything about the game. But he feels like he's
whole now. As as show Hay said, you know, last
year it was an abnormal year for him. This is
(25:08):
getting back to normal being a two way player. The
world seems right to show Hey right now because now
he's back being a two way player, which is that's
who he is, that's his DNA, that's why he came
here to continue to pursue that. So definitely adrenaline. But
you know how hard this guy works. Joe wouldn't surprise
me that he's literally stronger coming back from the second surgery,
(25:29):
and then you're going to see him maintain more velocity. Again,
it's only one inning, so I'm not going to make
an overarching determination here that you know, show Hay's got
more gas in the tank this year, but it's possible
that he does. It would not surprise me is he
does get stretched out here. I'm saying he's going to
throw one hundred every pitch, but that everything across the
board might be playing up this year.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Something to prove quiet the doubters. I mean, he gets
fueled by those things. His whole careers existence has been
about proving himself. And again there's always going to be doubters.
There was right now, everything he's doing seems so mainstream
and easy and of course, but believe me, before we
(26:10):
made a transition, when I was there with the Angels
and was at twenty twenty one, when he started to
become the pitcher and player simultaneously, there was a lot
of naysayers and doubters at that point. And really, if
you play back the tape, a lot of folks did, now,
you shouldn't do this. She's got to pick one or
the other. So he's fueled by that kind of conversations.
(26:30):
He is a unique individual athletically speaking from a baseball perspective.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Although I'd love to see him.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I'm sure he could play other sports well too, But
he's got such a gift for.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Doing things naturally.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
In our game, it is, it's the it's the best
player in Little League by far, and everybody else is
just trying to hold hold on or be somewhat is good.
He just he sees things differently, feels things differently. He
is different, and so just give him a little a
little doubt out there, give him something to prove and
(27:03):
then heads.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
The other interesting thing, Joe, he threw only one split
last night. Okay, Yeah, he did not put away hitters
the way we normally see show hey do that he
ran a lot of full and two strike counts without
getting that swing of miss on strike three. I'm not
sure why. Maybe that's a pitch that you.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Would know better than me, Joe.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That comes along a little bit later in terms of
how the feel for that pitch. But a little bit
surprised that I only saw one split and the couple
of sweepers that he threw had a lot less sweep
to it than what we saw back in twenty three.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah, that's just gonna be feel the thing about the
splitter and ICE's way back, because that became really or
this fork ball became famous with Roger Craig when he
came on with the Giants, was at the eighties at
some point, because even in the minor leagues, I had
some young pitchers, young like rookie ball guys that really
had a decent split or a forkball.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
And I was always.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Concerned at that point because I you know, when there's nothing,
when you're fingers are split and there's nothing behind the ball,
your fingers are not behind the ball, and a way
to split your ten as of ligaments whatever. I was
always concerned about that because these guys so it hard,
and he throws it hard, and what kind of an
impact that can have moving up your arm to your elbow,
et cetera. I always had a concern about that. So
(28:23):
I don't know if that's part of the what we
saw is going to come back more slowly because we're
really we prefer that you just stay with these other
pitches now and then we're going to work that in
as we go forward. Or are they going to look
and see if he could eliminate that completely and still
be as effective without.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
That particular pitch. Again, I'm I'm just creating narrative, right.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
I don't know, but I do know as a young
manager I did not like when my young pitchers threw
that pitch. The other part of it was, and this
is different in the major league level, but they would
they could get any hitters out. You know that pitches
chase so often, especially on a younger level, that I
was concerned that when they did do that, they weren't
developing the other pitches, primarily their fastball and fastball commands.
(29:03):
So we could go on and on about this subject,
but let's just watch how this plays out.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And see if they're trying to have him.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Use it a lot less feeling that he can be
part of the concern regard you know, with the Tommy
Johns that he's had, or is that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
There's no concern.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
We're just going to build into this and build up
some more in strengths before we get to that point.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Meanwhile, he had two more hits, yeah, right, and raises
his batting average at three hundred. You know, the other
day Shohey got career home run number two hundred and
fifty and it was career game for him nine to
forty four. He is the fastest player in the history
of this game to reach two hundred and fifty homers
and one hundred and fifty stolen bases. It's just amazing
(29:46):
when you think about that. And I went a little
farther on this, Joe. I tried to find, through nine
hundred and forty four games, guys who had two hundred
home runs, one hundred and fifty stolen bases, one hundred
and fifty doubles and forty triples, like the whole Bengo
card of being a great offensive player. And I came
up with three players. That's it, Shoe a Otani, Willie Mays,
(30:08):
and Mike Trout. I mean, that's we take it for
granted again, but you know, Willie Mays, Mike Trout, we
haven't seen them on the mound being one of the
best pitchers in the league throughout one hundred miles an hour, right,
I mean, he does belong in that company. If you
break down show Hayes numbers as a pitcher and a
hitter at this point in the careers. As a hitter,
(30:30):
his closest comp is Willie Mays, and as a pitcher
it's someone like Jim Palmer.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
All in one player two first ballot Hall of Famers.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
And that also be putting Trout's name in that conversation
that's just that's just so difficult because he's been so
injured more recently. But wow, that's that's pretty impressive stuff
right there. And then furthermore, just keep going. The two
guys played for the Angel simultaneously. It's it's crazy Willie
Mays just say that name. It's such a god. It's
such a unique man in our history. I got to
(31:04):
meet him during the playoffs in twenty sixteen. Cubs are
playing the Giants were playing in San Francisco, and I
had a common friend and said he could have me
sit down with Willy. So before the game, I go
out to the parking lot and Willy had a handler
with him, but he also had his poodle on his lap.
And I sat with Willy for about fifteen or twenty
(31:25):
minutes out where the little tent is out there for
families to greed after the game, and I had a
fifteen or twenty minute conversation with Willie Mays, and.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
God I walked away from that.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
It's almost like the time I sat with John Wooden.
I've been really this game has really been fortunate for
me in a lot of regards. But to just be
able to sit there and visit with that man, and
we continually talk about all the wonderful things that he's
done and with one of the best players that has
ever lived at any age, at any at any point
in time that I had that opportunities. Really, I got
(31:57):
a great photograph of It's a pretty incredible memory for me.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I'm Willie, as you found out, great storyteller, that high
pitched laugh, just a pleasure to be around. Speaking of
Willie and the New York Giants. By the way, show hey,
last night, I mentioned he pitched the top of the
first and let off the bottom of the first. He
was the first National League player to do that since
(32:23):
Alvin Dark in nineteen fifty three. And I saw that
and it was like, wait a second, Alvin Dark, it's
a middle infielder. Yeah, yeah, Well his manager was Leo
de Rocher. Leo loved Alvin Dark, actually made him captain
of the Giants beck in either fifty one and fifty two.
So fifty three, the Giants had a tough year and
they're out of it.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
It's the last game of the year.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
They're playing Pittsburgh and Leo de Roscher has his boy,
Alvin Dark start the game as a pitcher, and obviously
we still lead off hit or for him. So that's
the last time it's happened. And it was sort of
just like a I say, goof, but yeah, kind of
put a position a player on the mound to start
the game, reward Alvin Dark for whatever reason Leo had.
(33:05):
But how about that It hadn't been done in the
National League since nineteen fifty three, And obviously Alvin Dark
was not a true two way player. He's a positional
player who was a manager just decided to put him
on the mound in the last game of the season. Joe,
did you ever do anything like that, take a position
player or somebody who wanted to do something the last
game of the year. I know Joe Torre used to
have one of his position players managed the last game
(33:27):
of the year when it was a meaningless game. Any
games that you had fun with in the course of
the season when it was not quote unquote a meaningful game.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, well, well an instructional league.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I mean they didn't count, but it had a week's
where the where with the players would run everything. They
would run the game, they would run the practice, et cetera.
Just trying to give them a feel what that was
all that was about. I would have felt like, because
players have no idea what it's like to organize a
day run in the morning, you know, be in charge
of the instruction, and then actually run the game itself
(33:58):
in the afternoon a hundred degree weathers. So I did
it with that in a game itself, in a big
league game. Rizzo used to badger me about letting him pitch.
Anthony Rizzo. I'd go out to take somebody out, he'd say,
coach put me in. So the one day I walked
out there and said, Rizz, you're in. We were getting
blown out. One time I walked out there and he
looked at me like no, and I said, yeah, you're in.
(34:19):
So I gave him the ball an he went out there.
It was the most scared moment of his life. He'd
been talking about this. I mean like nearly every time
I went out there to take out a picture, coach
put me in as the other pitcher was walking in.
So finally gave it to riz put in his glove.
He saw what it felt like. He loved it. Then
he didn't like it so much, but it was really interesting.
The instructional league thing. When you put the players in
(34:40):
charge for the week. That was kind of a cool gig,
and he gave him a different perspective on how this
thing is done.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh that's cool. I never heard that.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Didn't know you did that back in the IL, But
that's a great idea. And speaking of Leo and those
fifty three Giants, he liked a certain type of player,
right and Alvin Dark was that guy. There was also
Eddie Snankey was one of his favorite players fifty three Giants.
He also had Wes Westrom Whitey Lachman, Bill Rigney, Bobby Hoffman.
(35:09):
All these guys became managers, Joe. It was not by accident,
and they weren't running through seventy players a year back then,
you know, maybe at most thirty players. And he had
a whole core of players who became major league managers,
in some cases minor league managers. I mean it says
something about the type of player that Leo.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
De Rocher wanted back then. Having Willie May's help too.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Don't get me wrong, right, stop me if I've said this,
But Wes Westerron was a good friend of mine and
I got to sit with Wes at games. He was
a scout for the Braves when I was a young
scout with the Angels in the early eighties, and I
would sit with Wes at Packard Stadium, and Wes was
extraordinary at picking up pitches from pitchers based on not
seeing signs or anything but their movements and their glove
(35:53):
position and stuff like that. So I'm sitting up at
Packard and we're sitting up a little bit because he'd
liked to sit away from the maddening crowd, and he
was Kendall Carter was pitching, and he's calling all these
pitches at Kendall Kenna was hot stuff at that time.
So I'm sitting up there and and I couldn't see
what he saw, and he's calling pitches. And then he
told me about the times with the Giants coach in
first base, how he would call pictures for Mason McCovey,
(36:15):
again not by picking in at the catcher, but looking
at what the picture was doing on the mount and
how he would set up and it was just extraordinary
how Wes could pick these things up. Really, a humble man,
fun guy from somewhere in Minnesota played in the World
Series with this New York Giants at the pologrounds. I've
seen photographs number nine, I believe, but you bring up Wes.
(36:37):
I mean, this guy treated me so well and he
was just it was so interesting. This is this is
like he saw the game differently because there was no
other way to get better at this except to really
focus and concentrate on what you're seeing if you want
to look for an edge, and that's what he did.
So West Western really warm spar to my heart, warm
(36:59):
spot in my heart.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Hey, here on the Book of Joe, we like to
acknowledge when we hear about the passing of certain legends,
whether in the baseball world or especially in the music world,
and we'll do that. We have to do that right
after this quick break.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
It's a tough week in the music world with the
loss of both Sly and Stone and Brian Wilson lost
both of them last week. They've got to be on
your playlist. I'm thinking Joe both in both cases.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes, starting with Sly.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
My brother Mark was really big on them back in
the day and I was more of a latent faller
and I love them, man.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I I really I haven't. I haven't had the.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Tribua because I have these big speakers outside my house
that I play. Golfers are golfing and they could hear
music from my house, and I have not had my
tribute to Sly. I'm going to start that today the
last couple of days. My tribute to Brian Wilson and
the Beach Boys. It's all You've been doing a little
tournament over the weekend. I had them, you know, blaring
really loud. Yes, I mean for those that really haven't
(38:12):
listened to the slide and the family Stone stuff. Really,
you do yourself a favor, so creative, such a great sound.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Oh my god, just stop.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
And I'm going to do that today. Thank you for
reminding me about that. And on the other side, I
always felt some kind of a kinship to the Beach Boys,
only because I did so much time in southern California.
Long Beach was my first stop in seventy six as
a young angel. He was born in Hawthor not that
far away or they were.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
And then the.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
Music itself, I mean, at that time was so enamored
with everything about, you know, California girls and all this stuff.
Southern California and going to the beach and stuff I
never listened. I'm looking at coal deposits here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So it was such.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
A different experience for me from where I came from
to eventually landing there.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And then the more you really got.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
Into the music and how much they were admired, the
Beach Boys and hymns, particularly by the Beatles and everybody else,
and then you really started listening and then you hear
about good vibrations, what done in four different studios. The
genius of what he did is everlasting, no question. So
I'm always been a huge fan of there, but I
just wanted to pin or point out sliding the family stone.
(39:25):
That stuff there is so unique and their sound was
so great, and it really was a sign of the
early late sixties early seventies for me.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah, and it holds up so well.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Sly and Brian Wilson were born just nine months apart.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
They died two days apart.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Some other similarities, just musical geniuses who also had some
mental health and substance abuse issues. A lot of darkness
often associated with genius for Brian Wilson, and went back
to growing up and being abused by his father.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But you're right about sly Stone.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I mean they were innovative, right when you think about
out the way they fused, you know, all kinds of
genres and music, and you know, it started out he
had his brother on guitar, his sister was on keyboards.
He had a couple of Italians in the band on
drums and saxophone. You know, it was women, it was men,
it was black, it was white. It really was everyday people,
(40:22):
the living version of it. And as he said, it
was kind of music that held up forever. And then
you had the Beach Boys, Brian Wilson, I mean the
Beatles said back then it was you know, they made
each other better, the Beatles and the Beach Boys. They
were kind of going back and forth with creativity in
their albums and number one hits. Brian Wilson never got
(40:44):
on a surfboard in his life, but somehow he captured
that vibe right, the youthfulness of California, and it really
kind of defined California in the sixties and going forward
as a place of opportunity and vibrancy and youthfulness just
to legends. Really, Joe, when you think about the mark
that they left on the music industry that really still
(41:06):
remains and that is the ultimate test, is the test
of time.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
You think about It's like the Endless Summer that was
such a big gig, and there's a great poster, uh,
the Endless Summer with the guy with the beach board
that the multi colored and that's that's what I think
of when I think of the Beach Boys in the
and sly, just think of that that part of the world,
that that side of the United States, Uh, the Endless
Summer and then forever young. I mean, their music, you know,
(41:32):
really permits the mind to wonder back in time. And
it's always a warm fuzzy there's always a warm fuzzy
about it, whether it was on an AM radio, in
a car, on a scratchy phonograph. Uh, you know, because
we didn't have the high tech stuff. My my mom
and dad had a fil Go like a blonde Filco
record player that I used to play all my stuff on.
(41:53):
So the sound wasn't great, but but it was it
was fabulous. So, uh, this this whole thing I've had
the Beach Boys blaring for the last couple of days
today is going to be slying the family Stone, And
I'm telling you, man, there's a projection you back in
time so easily, and it does. It becomes very nostalgic,
very quickly. It is the endless summer and it is
(42:14):
forever young. And that for those two reasons alone, I
love both of these groups and these people.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, maybe the height of it for slying the Family
Stone was Woodstock, right, Yeah, it was three thirty in
the morning when they got on stage in a downpour
and they just own the place. Half a million people
were there by the way, at three thirty in the
morning listening to Slie in the Family Stone. Things kind
of went downhill after that again, the drug use there.
(42:41):
In nineteen seventy they had eighty concert dates and they
canceled twenty six of them. They just didn't show up.
They just couldn't get themselves to perform. So there is
some sadness to it in both cases, but certainly the
music and the genius of those two live on.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
I guess genius comes at a price sometimes, right, There's
got to be some form of demon always lurking because
they're they're they're constantly in a state of creativity constantly,
and they're probably pushed by the fact that what they
had just done was so great and considered so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
How do I do it again? How do I make
it better?
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Where's my next motivating thought going to come from? What's
the next idea? You know, we talk about books a
lot of times, and I've always avid reader. I've always
really liked to go back to the first book that
some of my favorite writers have written, whether it was
Pat Conroy and even you know John Grisham when he
started turning stuff out the time they kill back in
(43:37):
the day, all these dudes, I always wanted the first.
I wanted to go back to the first because I
always thought that first album, that first book, really was
the culmination of so many years of I don't want
to use the words suffering in a sense, but struggling in.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Order to get to the point where there's a lot
of doubt.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
That they didn't know it was going to work after
it's all said and done. Everything, Yeah it's easy, it's great,
of course, but they didn't know that before it became great,
and so there's a lot of struggle involved, and there's
a lot of push and there's a lot of doubt
filled nights, I'm sure so I just think that when
you're that genius like and you have such a high
level of creativity, the thought of having to constantly push
(44:18):
yourself to do better probably has something to do with
why they had such a difficult time.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, I like that theory, Joe.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
And I also think when you share your creativity with
the world, right, it changes the dynamic, especially I think
in something as public facing as the music world, right,
I think the writing business tends to be more introverted,
if you will, more isolated, whereas you know, to go
out there and perform and to share everything, share yourself
(44:46):
with the world like that, there's responsibilities that. Let's face it,
not everybody really is geared up for it. They're not
wired that way. Some love it, absolutely love it being
up there on stage. Others maybe not so much that
the music is what gets them off, not so much
the adoration that comes back. And I'm gonna finish this
(45:07):
thought by bringing it back to show he Otani, because
I mean, who gets more adoration than show Hey, right,
The demands on him are just enormous. He is the
Beatles in a baseball uniform, and yet the way he
handles it, Joe is amazing. I spoke with someone with
the Dodgers who said, the most amazing thing about show Hey,
besides the physical skills, which again we all are blown
(45:29):
away by, is the fact that he feels no stress,
which is amazing when you think about it. Sho Hey
plays this game. It's a cliche, but he does play
it like a child. And you think about when baseball
is the most fun, it's the least stressful. And somehow
show Hey is able to go out and keep performing
at this level we have never seen before, to keep
(45:50):
amazing us by doing things even he hasn't done before,
and yet do it with no stress on him whatsoever.
I don't know how he's been able to do that, Joe,
But watch him play, watch him pitch, the joy that
he plays the game with. I want to say it's
easy because I know how dedicated he is to being
the best that he can be.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
There's a lot of hard work.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
It's the lack of stress to me, in a very
stressful game with a ton of failure and for him,
especially a ton of attention that blows me away.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
That is years of preparation, that is yours, of building confidence,
that is building a belief in yourself, that you know,
you know what you know, and you can bring it
to bear on a daily basis. You kind of repel criticism,
not to the point where you may listen to it.
Obviously you have to at times, but you know when
(46:45):
you might be off track and you got to maybe
get some advice from somebody else. But people like him,
they have this unbelievable belief system in what they're doing
and how they're doing it, and that it's right, and
that they have this foundation bedrock of things they believe in.
And I think with that they're able to withstand the
(47:05):
onslaught from those coming from outside in.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
And I've used the phrase know what you know.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
I mean a lot of people that's almost sounds like
a yogism. But you spend your life gaining experience and
doing different things and creating who you are, and at
some point, I mean, I think.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
In today's world, so many people have no idea of
what they know.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
They're always constantly looking for somebody else to give them
guidance and put them in the direction, and unable to
almost become paralyzed by the thought of making up their
own mind and making decisions for themselves. That group that's
really done properly if they're earned the right to be
wherever they're at because they've gone through the We've talked
about the struggle, and.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
By doing that, you learn what works for you and
what doesn't work for you.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
And really, at the end of the day, man, and
I show hey, and I think anybody that's really very
good at what they do, you can't worry about what
everybody else thinks all the time, and you just divide
it up. Fifty percent may like you and fifty percent
may not. So play to the fifty sent that you
know that they do like you or what you do
or how you do it. So, you know, I want
to believe I have a little bit of that in
(48:10):
me too, because you know, you get criticized for coming
off too strongly sometimes. I'm only do that because this
is what I believe in, you know, this is the
things that I've done over time. And of course you
could give me your opinion, and of course you can
make me rethink possibly my position on things.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
But at least I have an opinion that's been.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Forged through years of doing things and a lot of
failure involved also, So that's that's it, man. I think
they're the fact that they've they've the trial and error
part of that, and if they've endured the struggle out
of sight nobody's seen it, and then eventually arrive with
some things that work for you, and then you hold
on to them tightly. And at the end of the day,
(48:50):
the whole world revolves around the word confidence. If you
got it, you're able to withstand and if you don't,
whatever that thing is, it makes makes it much more difficult.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Oh, I love all those thoughts.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I mean, you're talking about really the purity of intent,
where there are no hidden agendas. You know, I can't
stand that when people do something for agendas that are
not apparent. If you do it because, as you said, Joe,
you believe in it and you believe it's the right
thing to do, that's tough to argue with. Those are
all great thoughts. But I know, Joe, you've got something
(49:21):
else for us, because you always do. You bring us
home with some words of the words of wisdom, our
thoughts of the day. I'm curious where you're going today.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I think it.
Speaker 4 (49:29):
I think it ties in Steve DeMarco. He's a fellow
friend of mine. I think we talked about it he's
kind of coordinates golf tournaments. He did the Tunnel the
Towers down in Nashville recently. And he's got this little
thing every day that he sends out quotes of the day,
and I'm on his list and he send this one out.
I think, I thought, gosh, I love this and it
really does this Germaine from a guy by named of
(49:52):
Tony Gaskins.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
You teach people how to treat you by what you tolerate. Wow,
isn't it true? After all we are when people meet you,
they have no.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Idea and they're gonna you know, they said, people with
bad intentions are going to prod and poke to find
out what they can get away with.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
So it's really good.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
Stand up for yourself, man, stand up for yourself, especially
if you know what you believe in, you know what
you think, and you've earned the right to say different
things based on experiences, trial and error, failures, which really
is our greatest teacher. And it isn't accountability about our failures.
I mean, I was thinking about this yesterday. The word
(50:33):
accountability is all used all the time, but really it
points to failed moments. Is when we're have to be accountable.
So I guess the more accountable you are, maybe that's
the more you failed. But you teach people how to
treat you about what you tolerate. I thought that was
pure genius and I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Great stuff, Joe, I really like that. Good way to
end this edition of the Book of Joe. We'll see
you next time, Thanks Tommy, you will. The Book of
Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(51:11):
you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey Aron, welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts
with Me, Tom Berducci, and of course Joe Madden.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
There's a lot of news to get to, but we
do have to start with Rafael Devers. What saga going
on in Boston now in San Francisco. The trade of
Rafael Devers to the Giants stunned a lot of people.
You don't see a lot of trades in June, Joe especially.
We have never seen a player with a contract this
long traded this early into the contract.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
But it is done.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Give me your quick reactions to something that a lot
of people did not see coming.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Yeah, too many chefs. It really started from them, absolutely
from the beginning. The way it was handled early on,
I think really led to this particular moment. Of course,
I'm not in the room, so I don't hear all
the conversations. However, just imagine, you know, situations like this,
We've talked about it before, the Jack Ryan meth that
you just it's just got to be straight up from
Jump Street. You got to start the conversation out, don't
(01:14):
hold anything back, don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
About hurting anybody's feelings.
Speaker 4 (01:18):
Just give everybody the truth from from the beginning, from
Jump Street, and a lot of this possibly could have
been averted. And furtherm we're a more complete plan. It
just seems like, listen, I'm these are smart people, but
to think it all the way through regarding here, we're
going to do this, and this is better for the team.
(01:39):
Breglan is a better player at their base. Of course
it's all true. But then when you talk to Devers
the first time, worried about hurting his feelings, not giving
him the full money. And I think the biggest mistake
was to tell him to forget about his glove. I mean,
if they had done all of this and just set
it up and he understood, listen, we think this is
right for now, but I want you to continue to
(02:00):
take ground balls at third base and at first base
because we believes something may.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Happen down the road.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
And like I said, I think we talked to you about
this before. Let him even play a couple of games.
Give Fregman a day off, give the first basement a
day off. Keep him solvent because he was kind of
emasculated from Jump Street at an early young guys when
they're that young and they're asked to not to just
be a DH.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
It's hard. It's hard.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
I mean I ran into what the Angels back in
the day. We had four good outfielders and Edmund Sam
and Anderson and Erstad, and we decided that well, well
just DH one once, you know, rotate the DH among
the four, we're gonna be fine.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
They hated it.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
They absolutely hated it, and it was it. Really we
had to eventually get out of that. Young guys don't
like to do that. So for a variety of different reasons,
it ended up this way, and it obviously indicates they
felt they probably felt as thill, a lot of their
mediocrity has been pretty much engulfed in this this controversy.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, I like you to take that.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
You know, it was a mistake not adjusting slute him defensively.
It just I don't understand why that wasn't done in
the first place. Just say, you're a better baseball player
by just continuing to work on the field. I'm not
throwing you out there seven days a week, but just
to quote unquote put the glove away, huge mistake.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
Here's what I don't get, Joe in this day and age.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
You know, can you why can't you just tell the player,
especially after the injury to cause us at first base,
we need you to play first base period. You know,
why are you walking on eggshells? Why are you letting
the players say, well, no, you told me I'm not
a defender, so I'm not going to defend.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
There were two opportunities.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Cossas goes down at first base, Bregmant goes down at
third base. The guy with the longest term contract on
your team said no, he's not playing those positions. On
the face of that, that just strikes me as almost unfathomable.
And why a team doesn't say, you know what, tomorrow,
meet us at four o'clock, three o'clock ground balls at
first base. We know it's a difficult transition. We're not
(04:02):
saying you're going to do this right away, but we're
gonna start taking ground balls toward the end of making
us a better team. It was never really done. I
don't understand that you're right.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
I can't argue that that's wonderful logic. You're one hundred
percent correct, But it's not just in baseball. We were
you know, the inmates in the asylum analogy. It's just
gotten to that point.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
They took a kid, Christian Campbell, his first year in
the big leagues, and they threw him at first base.
A he's a middle infielder. He played first base in
the big leagues without any kind of prep. Right, Josel
two Va, Bryce Harper, Kyle Schwarber, on and on.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
The list goes of guys who has changed positions.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And we're not talking about taking an infielder and putting
in the outfield or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
This corner infielder.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
No, you're right, I'm missing it. It should have happened.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
It makes no sense to end up in partying of
the ways, especially because this guy can't hit. I mean
he's he's been one of my favorite hitters, not only
on that team but in the American League for the
last several years. They exiled them to San Francisco, where
hitting is a little bit more difficult generally speaking, just
like when Mo Vaughn came out to Anaheim, that left
(05:08):
field wall wasn't there anymore. You get these really good
Fenway hitters, and I'm not suggesting I don't even know
what his numbers look like away from home but you
take that left field wall away from these guys, it's
a completely completely different mindset when you come up to
the plate. It just everything looks differently in that right
field in San Francisco is short in numbers, long in reality.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
So you're right.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
I'm not arguing with anything you're saying, one hundred percent right.
It just really was handled poorly from Jump Street, like
you said, and we'll see it all plays out, but
it's unfortunate to have him with these other dudes and
these young players. Really benefits the Red Sox long term.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I agree with that. Long term.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Short term no, I mean, let's face it, you just traded,
like you said, a great hitter, maybe one of the
top ten hitters in the game, and he traded him
under duress. Let's face it, this trade was not made
for quote unquote baseball reasons, because there was an evaluation
of his talent. You know, the team had started to
play better obviously, you know they were in a five
(06:07):
game now six game winning streak. That did not precipitate
this trade. It was more the fact that and I
agree with this from the Red Sox perspective, Joe, this
was not going to get better the emotion of having
your job taken away, essentially at least your third base
position in Devor's case, I understand that. You know, that's
a big blow to your pride. He worked on becoming
(06:29):
let's say, a decent third basement. Certainly wasn't great, but
at a young age that was taken away, and there's
going to be an emotional reaction.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
But here we were, what three four months later, and
the situation was still hardening and festering and was not
going to get better. So I understand why they had
to move on here. I think they're better long term, Joe,
I can't say they're better short term without Devers bat
in the lineup.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Let me ask you this.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
I mean, this is maybe an offshoot of all of this,
because I've seen this a lot in the In sports
in general today, the front office always consulting with players,
you know, to talk about when they're going to make
an acquisition, just some things in general among the team,
like the stars of the team are nowadays consulted by
the front office regarding potential moves or non moves to
(07:19):
be made. It's always been my experience, and I really
it's not to be taken right or wrong. But players
are not good evaluators. They're not they have their evaluation
tools are really not high standard. They've never really gone
through the process of scouting that'll understand what a player
looks like before it becomes a player or not. And
I keep seeing and reading and whether it's the NBA,
(07:42):
the MLB, the NFL, all these stuff. You hear about
front offices consulting with players before they make a move. Now,
in this situation, the consultation should have been with devors
straight up regarding with what we're going to do and why, etc.
Just to try to ameliorate this this transition with Bregmun
coming there. But overall, I mean, you hear about players
(08:04):
being consulted.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (08:06):
I'm not into that quite frankly, because just like, Okay,
I'm a major league manager and people say, you know,
who should you bring up from Triple A or whatever
when something happens, I said, don't ask me. I'm not
watching these guys every day. You have to ask people
boots on the ground, people that are actually seeing this
kind of stuff. So, in a weird way, I think
this is kind of like an offshoot of all of that.
The consultation with players on teams regarding potential moves and
(08:30):
talking about them situations in advance. Then you can talk
to me about airplanes or food on airplanes or things
like that. But it comes to personnel decisions, I don't
quite get it.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah, let me get into some of the explanations, if
you will. The Red Sox president Sam Kennedy general manager
Craig Breslo did address the issue on a zoom call
with reporters before the Red Sox first game without Raffael Devers.
You're gonna love it, Joe, because it's full of execut
you speak right. For instance, Sam Kennedy, the president, said,
(09:00):
we worked at it. We had a different vision for
him going forward than he had and we couldn't get there.
We couldn't find alignment, and we reached that inflection point
and made the decision to make a big move. So
your key there, they were not in alignment. Here's the
key quote from Craig Breslow, the general manager, who also
(09:21):
to me, too much executive speak here, you know, just
speak plainly, speak baseball, please. He said, the whole was
not greater than the some of the parts being great
teammates and sacrificing and stepping up for each other and
embodying this shared vision. We believe those are principles we
needed to be faithful too. And then he was asked, well,
what's the identity, what's the culture that you want? And
(09:43):
he said, each individual is contributing to finding a way
to help a team win, whether that is in the
batter's box, on the pitcher's mound, on the basis on defense,
in the clubhouse, on the bench.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Here's the key.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It's the willingness to step up and sacrifice in time
of need and eventually do whatever's necessary to help the
team win. There's your money quote right there. Step up
and sacrifice and time of need and do what needs
to be done to help the team win. Isn't that
professional sports?
Speaker 3 (10:16):
Team sports?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
That's I mean, that's what we've devolved to. I mean
that that is a devolvement. It's not We're not progressing
with that. That's not progressive as far as I'm concerned.
I mean, again, I go back to Julie Franzosa's social
studies teacher at Hazelton High School. Sometimes, often these days
things are better when they were worse. You know, you
get you get all this supposed innovation and quote unquote
(10:40):
better ways of doing things, more efficient ways of doing things.
Numbers don't lie here, all this stuff constantly, But at
the end of the day, it's about people and and
and in this situation, experienced would would would have mattered
a lot. From an experienced mindset, you would not have
heard all that gibberish. Quite frankly, it's insulting, you know,
(11:01):
when you when you and it is exactly you're talking.
You know, we've talked about this before. It's in the
Book of Joe. I'm just not into this stuff. I
think it is. It's insulting. The average fan or the
real fan probably scoffs that this maybe some some of
those in Boston might actually embrace this kind of a conversation.
But at the end of the day, man just again,
(11:22):
speak plainly, man, it's it's yeah, it's insulting in a sense.
I don't like that kind of stuff. And again it
goes back to the beginning with more experience between the
two of those guys, and oak Sam's been there for
a bit. I know, I know Bresla. I was with
Grez a little bit. He's brilliant, he's a wonderful man.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I like him a lot, but get past this kind
of stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
And it's not what we need to hear. It's not
what your players need to hear. And it's definitely I
don't think what the fan base needs to hear because
it is insulting.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
I understand what they did here, Joe, I really do.
I mean, the bottom line is your best player. I
certainly want the longest term contract here. Didn't want to
do things to help the team win at a time
of need. There's no question that. And again, I don't
think the ask was out of the ordinary. To go
out there and take ground balls, see if you can
make yourself a two way player and play some defense.
That's not unreasonable. As you said, you got there because
(12:16):
established that. I was really surprised and disappointed that Alex
Corey didn't reach this player early on to get him
to buy in, to get out there and just start
taking ground balls. I hated this parlor game they played
when they brought in Bregman signed in spring training, and
they're not even saying that he's a third baseman. They're
walking on eggs shells like, well, we'll see what happens.
We'll let this thing play out, We'll do it's best
(12:37):
for the team.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
No, he's your third baseman.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
We all knew that Alex Bregman was not signed to
be a DH and watch Devers play third base. You know,
as you said, just go Jack, Ryan, face the issue
head on.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Now.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
The question for me is how did the Giants handle this?
Speaker 1 (12:53):
You know, is Robbiel Dever is going to take ground
balls for the Giants and start playing third base while
Matt Chapman is on the aisle. Is he going to say, Okay,
I'll take ground balls at first base and see if
I can help there. Or is he going to say, well,
the Red Sox told me I'm a DH. It's all
gonna do. I don't see how he holds that position.
Joe switching organizations here.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, first of all, he just did.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Hit a home run to help them win the day
that he left, right, So I mean, yes, yeah, his
numbers actually were turning out pretty well, right, wasn't he
driving in runcie?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
I mean, so, I mean, you know, in spite of
all that, I mean, you know, the.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Great Bob Clear, my mentor in the minor leagues, when
whenever I wanted to pull a player because he didn't
run the first phase or something. He told me, don't look,
don't look find him, don't look. And eventually I would bet,
I mean, regardless of what I just said. And I
didn't like the way this was handled, yes, but I
think over time this probably would have settled itself. Probably,
(13:45):
But going to San Francisco, the Giants, they're going to
immediately ameliorate all of his concerns. Yes, take your ground balls. Yes,
we're going to place. They're probably gonna do that thing.
We're going to play. Yes, some at third, some at first.
Don't worry about it if if you're really uncomfortable there.
We understand that they'll probably have a defensive replacement maybe
later in the game at first base.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
In the beginning.
Speaker 4 (14:06):
All this stuff needs to be on the table right
from Jump Street. But I believe that they will. He's
gonna take round balls. You're gonna see him on defense.
They believe they can fix this. They're responsible for this
huge contract right now. Well they need to do that
because quite frankly, they can't allure free agents normally to
get there. So all this stuff is in play. But yes,
(14:26):
just hit a home run and helped them win the day.
He leaves, and then yes, he's gonna be this model
citizen out there, because as he goes there, the Giants
think they got this right.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
They're gonna they're gonna they're gonna.
Speaker 4 (14:37):
Learn from all the mistakes that Boston had made. They're
gonna make sure to not duplicate them. And then Buster
there along with Bomel. I think the approach is going
to be a little bit different in that sense, in
the fact that they've learned, they understand exactly what went wrong,
they're gonna make it right.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
I believe, yeah, Buster is an interesting player in this
case here. First of all, I'm not sure that far
Hans a Edi, his predecessor, would have made a trade
like this, right, No, Yeah, And Buster obviously has established
a really good culture there drawing out his days in
those championship Giants teams. And I believe in this case,
I don't think he's like overreaching the manager here, Joe.
(15:15):
But I do think in this case, the president of
Baseball Operations is a former All Star and World Champion
of Buster Posey, and I think his voice really resonates
or should resonate, with Rafael Devers. It seemed to me,
for whatever reason, Devers had a problem with Craig Breslo
from Jump Street, right, and he publicly dissed his own
general manager, who is a former player, you know, certainly
(15:37):
not as decorated as Buster Posey, but a good former
player in the big leagues. But in this case, I
think with Buster there, he's going to be able I
think at least to establish a commonality with Raffael Devers
to get him to buy into something.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
What that something is, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You're probably right, you know, make yourself available to play
both corners, primarily be a DH but give the manager
options here.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
But I think a lot of this is Buster Posey
driving it.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Obviously, he makes this deal knowing or thinking believing that
he's got a way to make this work in San
Francisco the way it did not work in Boston.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:12):
Again, it's just I mean, I mean, the most frank
conversations you could possibly have. Now he's I don't even
know how much they know one another. I know Adamas
has already started talking about it. At shortstop. I'm thinking
Adamas and him, we're gonna tell yeah, I got him
at third base, I got him, I got him skipped.
We we're gonna be fine at you. You're gonna hear
that from the player himself. I think that, uh, he's
going to help ameliorate the situation. Also, however, UH, utilize
(16:35):
your experience, be straight forward, don't hold back. We have
an honest conversation from the moment he walks in the door,
and do not sugarcoat it. Don't don't don't fluff it
up a little bit.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Just say it.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Just say it, and that will be their best way
to get this point across. I don't even know if
there's any Latino Hispanic coaches on that staff there that
maybe Dever's no. I don't know all that, but Baumill
could deal with it. I'm sure Buster can deal with it.
It's a fresh art. Don't make the same mistakes Boston make,
and they're gonna get themselves a pretty good player.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Meanwhile, there was really good news in baseball on Monday
Night show. Hey Otani is back on the mound the
first time in a Dodgers' uniform. It was an event,
and you'll not believe when you hear some of the
things show Hey did in just one inning of work.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
We will dive into that right after this.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Hey Joe, did you stay up late and watch one
inning of Show hey Otani on the mound?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
I did not. Last night was a quick exit, buddy.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Well, it was pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
He'd labored a little bit, so what might have been
two innings turned out to be one. But Show hey
Otani his first time on the mound in more than
six hundred and sixty days. He had an average fast
ball velocity of ninety nine point one miles per hour.
This was his eighty fourth game pitching in the major leagues.
(18:12):
That is his highest recorded velocity of his career. Now
you can say, well, of course it's a little higher.
Only pitch one inning. Okay, if you just take the
first inning of every game he's pitched in the big leagues,
it was the highest velocity that he's ever thrown the
big leagues. He hit one hundred point two with his fastball.
Uh and by the way, in the game, he also
(18:34):
hit a baseball one oh five point two.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I think about that.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I mean, I hope people never get accustomed to the
fact of what we're seeing here. He threw a pitch
at one hundred point two he hit a ball at
one oh five point two. Now, the most amazing thing
for MAJO is just a little tableau of watching show
a pitch the top of the first inning, goes to
the dugout, doesn't even have time, with less time between
(19:00):
innings now than it used to be because of the
pitch timer to go into the dugout to grab a
drink of water or put anything down.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Actually, he never went the dugout.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
He had the one of the bat boys come out
and bring him his leg guard, his arm guard, his
batting helmet, and his bat and he basically got dressed
to hit right there on the warning track and stepped
into the batter's box to bat. This guy pitched the
top of the first let off the bottom of the
first inning. Just an amazing scene that I hope nobody
took for granted, But boy, there was a good look
(19:31):
to see showing on the mound. A couple of things
that stand out also to me, Joe, I want to
hear your comments on this, because obviously you coached this guy,
you managed him.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
You know what he does on the mound. He pitched
out of the wind up.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
You know it's the first time he's done that at
least the state side that we've seen, and the release
point that he had was the lowest.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Of his career.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
You know, it looked like he was getting down more,
getting more into his legs again pitching out of the
wind up. Maybe that's got something to do with it. It
wasn't drastically lower, but it was lower than anything we've
seen before. So we've got to show hey now on
the mound, throwing harder than ever, lower release point out
of a wind up.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
Well as well that first anything he's rehearsed, that he's
got that down. Interesting though, the fact that he they
don't want this to happen again. I'm sure they went
through this, I don't know, exercise and put videos out
there and whatever. The guys get hurt, guys that don't
get hurt, Tommy John, but whatever. If they lowered his armstroke,
they probably somehow determined that that may have been part
(20:32):
of the reason why this has happened, and by lowering it,
maybe that's also to encourage him to pitch at the
top of the strikes on a little bit more often.
We'll see, But it just seems like therews a conspiracy
there to avoid this again. And we're going to do
this through a mechanical adjustment nests. The best time to
make these kinds of adjustments is after a serious injury, honestly,
(20:53):
because after you've been sitting for a while and you
come back, you're going to restructure the way you're throwing
based on a pretty severe injury.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Again, that would be the time to do it.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
So they probably took a lot of stuff in consideration, obviously,
And that's interesting now the one as it turned out
to be winning and one hundred miles an hour.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
You're making me think, are they even thinking about bullpen?
Speaker 1 (21:14):
I don't know, No, no way, can't do that.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
It's too unscripted. You got to stick with the script.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
I agree, But they're seeing one hundred miles an hour
at at what any gig. It's going to be kind
of interesting. My point was, we talked about this yesterday.
I think they're going to this is his rehab assignment.
They're going to get him stretched out to five by
the All Star break, and then post All Star break again,
they'll work it backwards and try to figure out how
manyenings they want to get him into prior to and
(21:41):
then including the playoffs. But I got to watch this
because the lower armstroke interesting. I could see it in
my mind's eye kind of like that. I don't know
what it did to his breaking stuff, because this guy
is like, wow, crazy good breaking stuff to shoot though
the split, and he's one of those things, like Hugh Darbt,
they create on the run. They just unbelievable feel for
(22:01):
the game of pitching. So, yeah, you're right. I hope
we never get used to this. Everybody talks about the
next one. I don't know when that's gonna happen. I'm curious.
I'm saying at least a generation, possibly even longer. This
is this is weird stuff. This doesn't happen easily, and
he does. He does it so seamlessly and elegantly and
like without even an effort.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
He's just a different cat.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Yeah, you know you saw this.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
When Shoe first got here with the Angels, his arm
slot was much higher, you know. Even going from then
to last time we saw him on the mountain in
twenty twenty three, his arm angle went from forty five
degrees to thirty six degrees, so it's been evolving a
little bit lower. I took it to me last night
watching him pitch that he was more into his legs.
(22:44):
I don't think his arm angle actually changed all that much.
But to me, the other thing that was really interesting
Joe is the way he threw his two seamer. I
think Showey's gotten on board with a lot of pitchers
out there in the game today who are throwing a
lot more to seamers, just shaping the ball. For Instancean
when he last pitched in twenty three, he threw six
percent sinkers. That's it last night, and again it's a
(23:09):
small sample, sid it's all we have to go on.
Though he threw twenty nine percent two seamers, eight of
his twenty eight pitches were sinkers. He came out throwing
sinkers to Fernando Tatis at the bottom of the zone.
So to me, that shows that maybe we're going to
see a different show, almost Zach Wheeler esque, where we
always know he's got that high velocity for riding for steamer,
(23:30):
and now he's got that two seamer that he can
you know, run either at the bottom of the zone
or especially in on right handed hitters.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
I mean, when you say that, my thought would be
the ability or the thought of pitching more to contact
and getting more early count outs, possibly to again to
save maybe uh pitches thrown during the course of a game,
because nobody talks about early count outs anymore. Nobody talks
about pitching the contact anymore, and let your defense play.
That was that was a rallying cry back in the day.
(23:57):
I loved one of my pitchers did that. God, I
just loved when the first pitch out. That was such
a boon to you know, getting your guys more deeply
into games, all this stuff that's no longer emphasized. So again, again,
I don't know what the rhetoric is right now. I've
not been around in Dougoutson in clubhouses, so I don't
know for sure. But the two seam fastball getting underneath
(24:19):
the riety, if it's really good's that's always been a
positive that in a way to the lefty, though, I'm
curious how that reacts because sometimes you know, that's just
a less normally it's a lesser fastball velocity wise, you're
throwing into the sweet throwing to the thicker.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Part of the bat.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
To the lefties, I'd have to see all this stuff.
But overall, overwatching point, I think I'm curious if this
is more of a thought of pitching the contact and
getting more early count outs and saving some of that
velocity for later in the game.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, and speaking of velocity, it wasn't just the fourth seamer.
Everything that he threw is up a good two miles
an hour. Now, obviously there's got to be some adrenaline,
right absolutely. You know, you know how much this guy
loves the pitching side of the game. I mean, he
loves everything about the game. But he feels like he's
whole now. As as show Hay said, you know, last
year it was an abnormal year for him. This is
(25:08):
getting back to normal being a two way player. The
world seems right to show Hey right now because now
he's back being a two way player, which is that's
who he is, that's his DNA, that's why he came
here to continue to pursue that. So definitely adrenaline. But
you know how hard this guy works. Joe wouldn't surprise
me that he's literally stronger coming back from the second surgery,
(25:29):
and then you're going to see him maintain more velocity. Again,
it's only one inning, so I'm not going to make
an overarching determination here that you know, show Hay's got
more gas in the tank this year, but it's possible
that he does. It would not surprise me is he
does get stretched out here. I'm saying he's going to
throw one hundred every pitch, but that everything across the
board might be playing up this year.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Something to prove quiet the doubters. I mean, he gets
fueled by those things. His whole careers existence has been
about proving himself. And again there's always going to be doubters.
There was right now, everything he's doing seems so mainstream
and easy and of course, but believe me, before we
(26:10):
made a transition, when I was there with the Angels
and was at twenty twenty one, when he started to
become the pitcher and player simultaneously, there was a lot
of naysayers and doubters at that point. And really, if
you play back the tape, a lot of folks did, now,
you shouldn't do this. She's got to pick one or
the other. So he's fueled by that kind of conversations.
(26:30):
He is a unique individual athletically speaking from a baseball perspective.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Although I'd love to see him.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
I'm sure he could play other sports well too, But
he's got such a gift for.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Doing things naturally.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
In our game, it is, it's the it's the best
player in Little League by far, and everybody else is
just trying to hold hold on or be somewhat is good.
He just he sees things differently, feels things differently. He
is different, and so just give him a little a
little doubt out there, give him something to prove and
(27:03):
then heads.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
The other interesting thing, Joe, he threw only one split
last night. Okay, Yeah, he did not put away hitters
the way we normally see show hey do that he
ran a lot of full and two strike counts without
getting that swing of miss on strike three. I'm not
sure why. Maybe that's a pitch that you.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Would know better than me, Joe.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That comes along a little bit later in terms of
how the feel for that pitch. But a little bit
surprised that I only saw one split and the couple
of sweepers that he threw had a lot less sweep
to it than what we saw back in twenty three.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
Yeah, that's just gonna be feel the thing about the
splitter and ICE's way back, because that became really or
this fork ball became famous with Roger Craig when he
came on with the Giants, was at the eighties at
some point, because even in the minor leagues, I had
some young pitchers, young like rookie ball guys that really
had a decent split or a forkball.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
And I was always.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Concerned at that point because I you know, when there's nothing,
when you're fingers are split and there's nothing behind the ball,
your fingers are not behind the ball, and a way
to split your ten as of ligaments whatever. I was
always concerned about that because these guys so it hard,
and he throws it hard, and what kind of an
impact that can have moving up your arm to your elbow,
et cetera. I always had a concern about that. So
(28:23):
I don't know if that's part of the what we
saw is going to come back more slowly because we're
really we prefer that you just stay with these other
pitches now and then we're going to work that in
as we go forward. Or are they going to look
and see if he could eliminate that completely and still
be as effective without.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
That particular pitch. Again, I'm I'm just creating narrative, right.
Speaker 4 (28:43):
I don't know, but I do know as a young
manager I did not like when my young pitchers threw
that pitch. The other part of it was, and this
is different in the major league level, but they would
they could get any hitters out. You know that pitches
chase so often, especially on a younger level, that I
was concerned that when they did do that, they weren't
developing the other pitches, primarily their fastball and fastball commands.
(29:03):
So we could go on and on about this subject,
but let's just watch how this plays out.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And see if they're trying to have him.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
Use it a lot less feeling that he can be
part of the concern regard you know, with the Tommy
Johns that he's had, or is that.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
There's no concern.
Speaker 4 (29:20):
We're just going to build into this and build up
some more in strengths before we get to that point.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Meanwhile, he had two more hits, yeah, right, and raises
his batting average at three hundred. You know, the other
day Shohey got career home run number two hundred and
fifty and it was career game for him nine to
forty four. He is the fastest player in the history
of this game to reach two hundred and fifty homers
and one hundred and fifty stolen bases. It's just amazing
(29:46):
when you think about that. And I went a little
farther on this, Joe. I tried to find, through nine
hundred and forty four games, guys who had two hundred
home runs, one hundred and fifty stolen bases, one hundred
and fifty doubles and forty triples, like the whole Bengo
card of being a great offensive player. And I came
up with three players. That's it, Shoe a Otani, Willie Mays,
(30:08):
and Mike Trout. I mean, that's we take it for
granted again, but you know, Willie Mays, Mike Trout, we
haven't seen them on the mound being one of the
best pitchers in the league throughout one hundred miles an hour, right,
I mean, he does belong in that company. If you
break down show Hayes numbers as a pitcher and a
hitter at this point in the careers. As a hitter,
(30:30):
his closest comp is Willie Mays, and as a pitcher
it's someone like Jim Palmer.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
All in one player two first ballot Hall of Famers.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
And that also be putting Trout's name in that conversation
that's just that's just so difficult because he's been so
injured more recently. But wow, that's that's pretty impressive stuff
right there. And then furthermore, just keep going. The two
guys played for the Angel simultaneously. It's it's crazy Willie
Mays just say that name. It's such a god. It's
such a unique man in our history. I got to
(31:04):
meet him during the playoffs in twenty sixteen. Cubs are
playing the Giants were playing in San Francisco, and I
had a common friend and said he could have me
sit down with Willy. So before the game, I go
out to the parking lot and Willy had a handler
with him, but he also had his poodle on his lap.
And I sat with Willy for about fifteen or twenty
(31:25):
minutes out where the little tent is out there for
families to greed after the game, and I had a
fifteen or twenty minute conversation with Willie Mays, and.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
God I walked away from that.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
It's almost like the time I sat with John Wooden.
I've been really this game has really been fortunate for
me in a lot of regards. But to just be
able to sit there and visit with that man, and
we continually talk about all the wonderful things that he's
done and with one of the best players that has
ever lived at any age, at any at any point
in time that I had that opportunities. Really, I got
(31:57):
a great photograph of It's a pretty incredible memory for me.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
That's so cool.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
I'm Willie, as you found out, great storyteller, that high
pitched laugh, just a pleasure to be around. Speaking of
Willie and the New York Giants. By the way, show hey,
last night, I mentioned he pitched the top of the
first and let off the bottom of the first. He
was the first National League player to do that since
(32:23):
Alvin Dark in nineteen fifty three. And I saw that
and it was like, wait a second, Alvin Dark, it's
a middle infielder. Yeah, yeah, Well his manager was Leo
de Rocher. Leo loved Alvin Dark, actually made him captain
of the Giants beck in either fifty one and fifty two.
So fifty three, the Giants had a tough year and
they're out of it.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
It's the last game of the year.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
They're playing Pittsburgh and Leo de Roscher has his boy,
Alvin Dark start the game as a pitcher, and obviously
we still lead off hit or for him. So that's
the last time it's happened. And it was sort of
just like a I say, goof, but yeah, kind of
put a position a player on the mound to start
the game, reward Alvin Dark for whatever reason Leo had.
(33:05):
But how about that It hadn't been done in the
National League since nineteen fifty three, And obviously Alvin Dark
was not a true two way player. He's a positional
player who was a manager just decided to put him
on the mound in the last game of the season. Joe,
did you ever do anything like that, take a position
player or somebody who wanted to do something the last
game of the year. I know Joe Torre used to
have one of his position players managed the last game
(33:27):
of the year when it was a meaningless game. Any
games that you had fun with in the course of
the season when it was not quote unquote a meaningful game.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Well, well, well an instructional league.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
I mean they didn't count, but it had a week's
where the where with the players would run everything. They
would run the game, they would run the practice, et cetera.
Just trying to give them a feel what that was
all that was about. I would have felt like, because
players have no idea what it's like to organize a
day run in the morning, you know, be in charge
of the instruction, and then actually run the game itself
(33:58):
in the afternoon a hundred degree weathers. So I did
it with that in a game itself, in a big
league game. Rizzo used to badger me about letting him pitch.
Anthony Rizzo. I'd go out to take somebody out, he'd say,
coach put me in. So the one day I walked
out there and said, Rizz, you're in. We were getting
blown out. One time I walked out there and he
looked at me like no, and I said, yeah, you're in.
(34:19):
So I gave him the ball an he went out there.
It was the most scared moment of his life. He'd
been talking about this. I mean like nearly every time
I went out there to take out a picture, coach
put me in as the other pitcher was walking in.
So finally gave it to riz put in his glove.
He saw what it felt like. He loved it. Then
he didn't like it so much, but it was really interesting.
The instructional league thing. When you put the players in
(34:40):
charge for the week. That was kind of a cool gig,
and he gave him a different perspective on how this
thing is done.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Oh that's cool. I never heard that.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Didn't know you did that back in the IL, But
that's a great idea. And speaking of Leo and those
fifty three Giants, he liked a certain type of player,
right and Alvin Dark was that guy. There was also
Eddie Snankey was one of his favorite players fifty three Giants.
He also had Wes Westrom Whitey Lachman, Bill Rigney, Bobby Hoffman.
(35:09):
All these guys became managers, Joe. It was not by accident,
and they weren't running through seventy players a year back then,
you know, maybe at most thirty players. And he had
a whole core of players who became major league managers,
in some cases minor league managers. I mean it says
something about the type of player that Leo.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
De Rocher wanted back then. Having Willie May's help too.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Don't get me wrong, right, stop me if I've said this,
But Wes Westerron was a good friend of mine and
I got to sit with Wes at games. He was
a scout for the Braves when I was a young
scout with the Angels in the early eighties, and I
would sit with Wes at Packard Stadium, and Wes was
extraordinary at picking up pitches from pitchers based on not
seeing signs or anything but their movements and their glove
(35:53):
position and stuff like that. So I'm sitting up at
Packard and we're sitting up a little bit because he'd
liked to sit away from the maddening crowd, and he
was Kendall Carter was pitching, and he's calling all these
pitches at Kendall Kenna was hot stuff at that time.
So I'm sitting up there and and I couldn't see
what he saw, and he's calling pitches. And then he
told me about the times with the Giants coach in
first base, how he would call pictures for Mason McCovey,
(36:15):
again not by picking in at the catcher, but looking
at what the picture was doing on the mount and
how he would set up and it was just extraordinary
how Wes could pick these things up. Really, a humble man,
fun guy from somewhere in Minnesota played in the World
Series with this New York Giants at the pologrounds. I've
seen photographs number nine, I believe, but you bring up Wes.
(36:37):
I mean, this guy treated me so well and he
was just it was so interesting. This is this is
like he saw the game differently because there was no
other way to get better at this except to really
focus and concentrate on what you're seeing if you want
to look for an edge, and that's what he did.
So West Western really warm spar to my heart, warm
(36:59):
spot in my heart.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Hey, here on the Book of Joe, we like to
acknowledge when we hear about the passing of certain legends,
whether in the baseball world or especially in the music world,
and we'll do that. We have to do that right
after this quick break.
Speaker 5 (37:13):
On the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
It's a tough week in the music world with the
loss of both Sly and Stone and Brian Wilson lost
both of them last week. They've got to be on
your playlist. I'm thinking Joe both in both cases.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes, starting with Sly.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
My brother Mark was really big on them back in
the day and I was more of a latent faller
and I love them, man.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
I I really I haven't. I haven't had the.
Speaker 4 (37:51):
Tribua because I have these big speakers outside my house
that I play. Golfers are golfing and they could hear
music from my house, and I have not had my
tribute to Sly. I'm going to start that today the
last couple of days. My tribute to Brian Wilson and
the Beach Boys. It's all You've been doing a little
tournament over the weekend. I had them, you know, blaring
really loud. Yes, I mean for those that really haven't
(38:12):
listened to the slide and the family Stone stuff. Really,
you do yourself a favor, so creative, such a great sound.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Oh my god, just stop.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
And I'm going to do that today. Thank you for
reminding me about that. And on the other side, I
always felt some kind of a kinship to the Beach Boys,
only because I did so much time in southern California.
Long Beach was my first stop in seventy six as
a young angel. He was born in Hawthor not that
far away or they were.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
And then the.
Speaker 4 (38:41):
Music itself, I mean, at that time was so enamored
with everything about, you know, California girls and all this stuff.
Southern California and going to the beach and stuff I
never listened. I'm looking at coal deposits here in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
So it was such.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
A different experience for me from where I came from
to eventually landing there.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
And then the more you really got.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
Into the music and how much they were admired, the
Beach Boys and hymns, particularly by the Beatles and everybody else,
and then you really started listening and then you hear
about good vibrations, what done in four different studios. The
genius of what he did is everlasting, no question. So
I'm always been a huge fan of there, but I
just wanted to pin or point out sliding the family stone.
(39:25):
That stuff there is so unique and their sound was
so great, and it really was a sign of the
early late sixties early seventies for me.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah, and it holds up so well.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Sly and Brian Wilson were born just nine months apart.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
They died two days apart.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Some other similarities, just musical geniuses who also had some
mental health and substance abuse issues. A lot of darkness
often associated with genius for Brian Wilson, and went back
to growing up and being abused by his father.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
But you're right about sly Stone.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I mean they were innovative, right when you think about
out the way they fused, you know, all kinds of
genres and music, and you know, it started out he
had his brother on guitar, his sister was on keyboards.
He had a couple of Italians in the band on
drums and saxophone. You know, it was women, it was men,
it was black, it was white. It really was everyday people,
(40:22):
the living version of it. And as he said, it
was kind of music that held up forever. And then
you had the Beach Boys, Brian Wilson, I mean the
Beatles said back then it was you know, they made
each other better, the Beatles and the Beach Boys. They
were kind of going back and forth with creativity in
their albums and number one hits. Brian Wilson never got
(40:44):
on a surfboard in his life, but somehow he captured
that vibe right, the youthfulness of California, and it really
kind of defined California in the sixties and going forward
as a place of opportunity and vibrancy and youthfulness just
to legends. Really, Joe, when you think about the mark
that they left on the music industry that really still
(41:06):
remains and that is the ultimate test, is the test
of time.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
You think about It's like the Endless Summer that was
such a big gig, and there's a great poster, uh,
the Endless Summer with the guy with the beach board
that the multi colored and that's that's what I think
of when I think of the Beach Boys in the
and sly, just think of that that part of the world,
that that side of the United States, Uh, the Endless
Summer and then forever young. I mean, their music, you know,
(41:32):
really permits the mind to wonder back in time. And
it's always a warm fuzzy there's always a warm fuzzy
about it, whether it was on an AM radio, in
a car, on a scratchy phonograph. Uh, you know, because
we didn't have the high tech stuff. My my mom
and dad had a fil Go like a blonde Filco
record player that I used to play all my stuff on.
(41:53):
So the sound wasn't great, but but it was it
was fabulous. So, uh, this this whole thing I've had
the Beach Boys blaring for the last couple of days
today is going to be slying the family Stone, And
I'm telling you, man, there's a projection you back in
time so easily, and it does. It becomes very nostalgic,
very quickly. It is the endless summer and it is
(42:14):
forever young. And that for those two reasons alone, I
love both of these groups and these people.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah, maybe the height of it for slying the Family
Stone was Woodstock, right, Yeah, it was three thirty in
the morning when they got on stage in a downpour
and they just own the place. Half a million people
were there by the way, at three thirty in the
morning listening to Slie in the Family Stone. Things kind
of went downhill after that again, the drug use there.
(42:41):
In nineteen seventy they had eighty concert dates and they
canceled twenty six of them. They just didn't show up.
They just couldn't get themselves to perform. So there is
some sadness to it in both cases, but certainly the
music and the genius of those two live on.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
I guess genius comes at a price sometimes, right, There's
got to be some form of demon always lurking because
they're they're they're constantly in a state of creativity constantly,
and they're probably pushed by the fact that what they
had just done was so great and considered so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
How do I do it again? How do I make
it better?
Speaker 4 (43:16):
Where's my next motivating thought going to come from? What's
the next idea? You know, we talk about books a
lot of times, and I've always avid reader. I've always
really liked to go back to the first book that
some of my favorite writers have written, whether it was
Pat Conroy and even you know John Grisham when he
started turning stuff out the time they kill back in
(43:37):
the day, all these dudes, I always wanted the first.
I wanted to go back to the first because I
always thought that first album, that first book, really was
the culmination of so many years of I don't want
to use the words suffering in a sense, but struggling in.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
Order to get to the point where there's a lot
of doubt.
Speaker 4 (43:56):
That they didn't know it was going to work after
it's all said and done. Everything, Yeah it's easy, it's great,
of course, but they didn't know that before it became great,
and so there's a lot of struggle involved, and there's
a lot of push and there's a lot of doubt
filled nights, I'm sure so I just think that when
you're that genius like and you have such a high
level of creativity, the thought of having to constantly push
(44:18):
yourself to do better probably has something to do with
why they had such a difficult time.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Yeah, I like that theory, Joe.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
And I also think when you share your creativity with
the world, right, it changes the dynamic, especially I think
in something as public facing as the music world, right,
I think the writing business tends to be more introverted,
if you will, more isolated, whereas you know, to go
out there and perform and to share everything, share yourself
(44:46):
with the world like that, there's responsibilities that. Let's face it,
not everybody really is geared up for it. They're not
wired that way. Some love it, absolutely love it being
up there on stage. Others maybe not so much that
the music is what gets them off, not so much
the adoration that comes back. And I'm gonna finish this
(45:07):
thought by bringing it back to show he Otani, because
I mean, who gets more adoration than show Hey, right,
The demands on him are just enormous. He is the
Beatles in a baseball uniform, and yet the way he
handles it, Joe is amazing. I spoke with someone with
the Dodgers who said, the most amazing thing about show Hey,
besides the physical skills, which again we all are blown
(45:29):
away by, is the fact that he feels no stress,
which is amazing when you think about it. Sho Hey
plays this game. It's a cliche, but he does play
it like a child. And you think about when baseball
is the most fun, it's the least stressful. And somehow
show Hey is able to go out and keep performing
at this level we have never seen before, to keep
(45:50):
amazing us by doing things even he hasn't done before,
and yet do it with no stress on him whatsoever.
I don't know how he's been able to do that, Joe,
But watch him play, watch him pitch, the joy that
he plays the game with. I want to say it's
easy because I know how dedicated he is to being
the best that he can be.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
There's a lot of hard work.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
It's the lack of stress to me, in a very
stressful game with a ton of failure and for him,
especially a ton of attention that blows me away.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
That is years of preparation, that is yours, of building confidence,
that is building a belief in yourself, that you know,
you know what you know, and you can bring it
to bear on a daily basis. You kind of repel criticism,
not to the point where you may listen to it.
Obviously you have to at times, but you know when
(46:45):
you might be off track and you got to maybe
get some advice from somebody else. But people like him,
they have this unbelievable belief system in what they're doing
and how they're doing it, and that it's right, and
that they have this foundation bedrock of things they believe in.
And I think with that they're able to withstand the
(47:05):
onslaught from those coming from outside in.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
And I've used the phrase know what you know.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
I mean a lot of people that's almost sounds like
a yogism. But you spend your life gaining experience and
doing different things and creating who you are, and at
some point, I mean, I think.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
In today's world, so many people have no idea of
what they know.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
They're always constantly looking for somebody else to give them
guidance and put them in the direction, and unable to
almost become paralyzed by the thought of making up their
own mind and making decisions for themselves. That group that's
really done properly if they're earned the right to be
wherever they're at because they've gone through the We've talked
about the struggle, and.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
By doing that, you learn what works for you and
what doesn't work for you.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
And really, at the end of the day, man, and
I show hey, and I think anybody that's really very
good at what they do, you can't worry about what
everybody else thinks all the time, and you just divide
it up. Fifty percent may like you and fifty percent
may not. So play to the fifty sent that you
know that they do like you or what you do
or how you do it. So, you know, I want
to believe I have a little bit of that in
(48:10):
me too, because you know, you get criticized for coming
off too strongly sometimes. I'm only do that because this
is what I believe in, you know, this is the
things that I've done over time. And of course you
could give me your opinion, and of course you can
make me rethink possibly my position on things.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
But at least I have an opinion that's been.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Forged through years of doing things and a lot of
failure involved also, So that's that's it, man. I think
they're the fact that they've they've the trial and error
part of that, and if they've endured the struggle out
of sight nobody's seen it, and then eventually arrive with
some things that work for you, and then you hold
on to them tightly. And at the end of the day,
(48:50):
the whole world revolves around the word confidence. If you
got it, you're able to withstand and if you don't,
whatever that thing is, it makes makes it much more difficult.
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Oh, I love all those thoughts.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
I mean, you're talking about really the purity of intent,
where there are no hidden agendas. You know, I can't
stand that when people do something for agendas that are
not apparent. If you do it because, as you said, Joe,
you believe in it and you believe it's the right
thing to do, that's tough to argue with. Those are
all great thoughts. But I know, Joe, you've got something
(49:21):
else for us, because you always do. You bring us
home with some words of the words of wisdom, our
thoughts of the day. I'm curious where you're going today.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
I think it.
Speaker 4 (49:29):
I think it ties in Steve DeMarco. He's a fellow
friend of mine. I think we talked about it he's
kind of coordinates golf tournaments. He did the Tunnel the
Towers down in Nashville recently. And he's got this little
thing every day that he sends out quotes of the day,
and I'm on his list and he send this one out.
I think, I thought, gosh, I love this and it
really does this Germaine from a guy by named of
(49:52):
Tony Gaskins.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
You teach people how to treat you by what you tolerate. Wow,
isn't it true? After all we are when people meet you,
they have no.
Speaker 4 (50:03):
Idea and they're gonna you know, they said, people with
bad intentions are going to prod and poke to find
out what they can get away with.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
So it's really good.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
Stand up for yourself, man, stand up for yourself, especially
if you know what you believe in, you know what
you think, and you've earned the right to say different
things based on experiences, trial and error, failures, which really
is our greatest teacher. And it isn't accountability about our failures.
I mean, I was thinking about this yesterday. The word
(50:33):
accountability is all used all the time, but really it
points to failed moments. Is when we're have to be accountable.
So I guess the more accountable you are, maybe that's
the more you failed. But you teach people how to
treat you about what you tolerate. I thought that was
pure genius and I love it.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Great stuff, Joe, I really like that. Good way to
end this edition of the Book of Joe. We'll see
you next time, Thanks Tommy, you will. The Book of
Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(51:11):
you get your podcasts.
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