January 15, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci look at the career of Ichiro Suzuki and how his career of hitting singles will put him in the Hall of Fame! Former MLB'er Bubba Thompson is going back to college to play football at South Alabama which takes us to multi-sport athletes and Joe working with Bo Jackson. Joe explains how tough it is to predict a players success, even when they have incredible talent. Plus, Tom remembers the life and career of Felix Mantilla.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey Daron, Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the latest episode of the Book of Joe Podcasts
with Me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden. Joey
got a big week come up next week it's Hall
of Fame Week Baseball Hall of Fame balloting from the
Baseball Writers. The results are announced January twenty first, and
I know there's a lot of attention on eat Rose
(00:38):
Tozuki Joe and whether he's going to be a unanimous selection.
Of course, only Mariano Rivera has been a unanimous selection
among the writers. I don't know how you feel about it, Joe,
but I want to get this out of the way.
Way too much attention is put on whether a guy
is unanimous or not. It's such a trivial thing. It's
really only a matter of whether I there's four hundred
(01:01):
or so voters, as a matter of whether every buddy
agrees that the sky is blue. And that's hard to do,
right with writers. I think it just draws too much
attention away from it. It's not a reflection of the
value of the player. It's more of a quirk or
the voting so let me get that out of the way.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Your take on the voting, I think it's interesting, Like
there's the only part about that that is interesting, Like
who does not vote for somebody like that and why?
That would be the only interesting part to me.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I agree, I would like to know those things, but
we don't get an answer, Like we don't know who
didn't vote for Derek Jeter. We don't know the reasons why.
So I wish that we did have those, but we
don't get them.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
That would be the only reason why it's interesting to me,
because who didn't and why they did not vote for
that person. You look at it eachure, you look at
Derek and all these different people, and there's probably others
that would have qualified. Based on having been involved in
the game. You and I have been. We've seen it
up front. We know it. You know the personalities that people,
et cetera. Historians are the game, all that kind of
(02:00):
good stuff. There's got to be there's our bias of prejudice.
I mean, I mean, there's always there's always tough graders,
right and every every industry. As a scout, there's always
tough graders. As a manager coach, there's tough graders and
then and there's those that are very easy at this
and find all the reasons to put somebody like in
a Hall of Fame or in the starting lineup or whatever.
(02:21):
So yeah, more than anything, I just want to know
who did not vote for somebody and why when it's
so obvious that you should or have to vote for
in Anizio Suzuki.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
One of the things that really interested me, Joe, is
when you look back on the career of Hall of famers,
because we all tend to think that the Hall of Famers
you can see them coming a mile away, they hit
the ground running, that you know, the greatness is obvious,
and that's not always the case, as you know. And
I want to go back to something I know you've
talked about a lot as a manager when you have
players is never get in the way of greatness. And
(02:52):
I think eachier Row's story is a perfect example of that.
You have to remember that when each Row was drafted
in Japan, he did wasn't until the fourth round. Get this, Joe.
Each Row weighed one hundred and twenty pounds when he
was drafted one hundred and twenty pounds. His first manager
(03:13):
with the ORX blue Wave. Didn't think he was ever
going to hit with that style. It really hadn't changed.
He was actually a natural right handed hitter, and his
dad taught him to hit lefty because rightly so. He
reasoned that the left handed batter's box is closer to
first base than the right handed batter's box, and a
small guy with speed, why not get him the first base,
(03:33):
you know, a step closer each tier. Of course, took
that to another level with that gliding style. He seemed
to be hitting on the run on his way to
first base. But anyway, his first two years he didn't
play a whole lot with the ORX team. He hit
two twenty six, and after that season or ex changed
managers and they brought in I'm gonna call him the
(03:54):
Joe Madden of Japan, a guy by the name of
Okira Oji who played fourteen years in the big leagues.
Was never much of a hitter, but as a manager
a gained a repute for really bringing out the best
in players. You know, he was a guy who let
guys do I don't want to say anything they wanted.
But again, he didn't want to get in the way
(04:15):
of greatness, so he had a guy like Ichi Row
and he didn't want to change him at all. He said,
you hit the way you want to hit. He said,
you're going to bat lead off and play every day
for me, and did one other thing. Joe Ichiro Suzuki
is a very common name in Japan. E Heiro essentially
is a name that honors firstborn son. Suzuki is I
(04:36):
think the second most common name in Japan. So it's
kind of like the Joe Smith on the Org's Blue
Wave if you have someone named Ichiro Suzuki.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And Oji decided I want you to stand out.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
We're going to put just Ichiro on the back of
your jersey and each Tiro is twenty to twenty six hitter.
He's like, I'm not really that comfortable with it, but
whatever my manager believes in me, I think I'll do it.
So he played with the name Etiro on the back
of his jersey, which got a lot of a tension.
But more than that, Ea Tierro just hit and hit
and hit. That first year, he played one hundred and
(05:08):
thirty games. It's a full season over in Japan. He
had two hundred and ten hits. Two hundred and ten
hits in one hundred and thirty games he hit three
eighty five. It would be eighteen years before Eatier Road
did not hit three hundred in a season. I love
that story, Joe, because these Hall of Famers are not
always just ready made right out of the box. And
(05:30):
again it gets back to what you talked about. As
a manager, one of your responsibilities is to bring out
the greatness and a player and not get in the
way of greatness.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah. I love the idea that he just let him
go and do his thing. I mean, in a situation
like that, just listening to this whole story, you have
to let him fail with what he does well or naturally,
let's put it that way. So he had this unique style.
So did Stan Musual, So did Ted Williams. So did
Joe Demajo, So did Paul Mulatar, so did Julio Franco.
(06:03):
I mean, there's a lot of good players, great players
that did things I thought I always thought were indigenous
to them. Even not a Hall of Famer, but Bob Boone,
the way he caught, the way he sat on the ground.
I mean that would be very popular today with going
down on one knee, but Boone actually put his butt
on the ground. If you look at a lot of
great players, just primarily in baseball. I don't know that
there's as many different kind of styles when it comes
(06:25):
to running backs or throwing the football, basketball shooters. I
mean me, Dick Barnett used to kick himself in the
butt when he shot. I mean, there's different release points, whatever.
But baseball has all these guys that did something a
little bit differently. But nevertheless, at the point of contact.
If you took a slow still photograph of vat Show
at contact, or Jeter at contact, or Demago at contact, whatever,
(06:48):
at contact, they all pretty much look the same. It's
just they get there differently. And a lot of that
is based on how your body works and like you said,
years of having done something one way physically mechanically. So
kudos to this coach the manager, because I believe in
that you just you permit the guy to have, permit
his body to work as it because if he's been
(07:09):
doing it since he's ten, twelve, thirteen years old, it's
very difficult to change the body movement even at twenty
twenty one to twenty two. So all that makes sense
to me. I love that. And when you talk about
intro specifically as an opposition. As an opponent, he had
this really incredible ability to look out on the field
(07:30):
and I swear he'd watch where the defense was and
he would set it up mentally, I'm going to try
it at the ball here or there. It's almost like
he was hitting a fungo where you when you're hitting
fungos to infielder or not feel that you throw the
ball up in the air in front of you. He
hit it, and you're able to manipulate the bathead to
the point where you could hit the ball exactly where
you wanted to. He kind of like fungoed life pitching.
(07:50):
It was just incredible. Remember for us, my take on
it was to give him the lines on the infield,
third base and the first baseline. You just give him
that because I thought I saw too many balls in
both holes and like choppers over the mouth, so I
wanted to bunch the middle of the infield and then
in the outfield obviously opposite outfielder in etc. The thing
(08:11):
about him he could hit for pop if you wanted to,
But of course that wasn't his game. But an incredible
ability was it? We Willie Keeler was it that could
hit the ball where you ain't. He could absolute hit
the ball where you ate.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, we really killer who was born I think during
the Civil War, just about them. That's how long I
think you have to go back to find a true
comp to Etiro Suzuki. Eighty one percent of his hits
were singles. Rod Caru was in the seventies and percentage
of singles, he was more of a singles hitter than
Rod Caru. There's a great stat for you. There are
(08:46):
two seasons in which Etiro had more than two hundred singles,
not two hundred hits, two hundred singles. If you add
up every player who ever played the game of baseball
and all of their seasons with two hundred singles.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
You come up with one. It's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
By the way Akiro og his manager with the Blue Wave,
who allowed him to flourish and be the player that
he was. He also had Hideo Nomo with the Contentsuit Buffaloes,
and Nomo had a unique way of training, and you know,
he was lucky that he had a manager like Ogi,
who you know, rather than conforming to industry standards, which
(09:27):
is very common in the industry, he allowed Nomo to
train the way that he wanted to train, and that
certainly worked out well for Hideo Nomo. But you're right
about each tierro Joe. I've never seen a player who
made an art out of hitting the ball softly. It
was just amazing. He was actually better off each row
(09:48):
was when he mishit the baseball, because if you were
an infielder and you had to move more than two
steps left, right, or in, you were not throwing him out.
And you could say he was lucky, but he wasn't
because the way that he was gliding and all the
while keeping his hands back, he was designed just to
get a piece of the baseball. He lived to get
(10:11):
his two hundred hits every year. He was going to
get them one way or the other. And the way
you pile hit upon hit year after year is you
never give in. Your goal is to just make contact
with the baseball. It is not to drive the ball
out of the park. And personally, for me, I found
(10:31):
that fascinating to watch, maybe especially because he played in
an era where we didn't see a lot of that. Listen,
he came along in two thousand and one and that
was right before steroid testing, and those three seasons are
the only three consecutive seasons in baseball history where the
slugging percentage was four to twenty seven or greater. So basically,
it was the greatest slugging era of Major League baseball
(10:52):
history and a long comes of modern wee Willie Keeler,
I'm just fascinating that Joe, that he came over with
that skill set and did not try to be someone else,
to be a different kind of hitter based on what
was happening around him in the game.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, as you're talking like that all the way through it,
I'm thinking of Wade Bogs. Also Boxy. He did kind
of that game. Also. He was able to spray the
ball around as he wanted to. But then again, if
you ever watched Wait VP, the guy the ball can
go far. If you watch each ROMVP, he would just
show it off in Seattle once in a while he
started pulling the ball into the bleachers and I remember,
(11:29):
and I think, I don't know if I've relaid this story.
On a two thousand and nine All Star game, met
up with him in a restaurant the night before the
game and send a bottle of wine over to his table,
and I said, I'm sending this battle with the intent
that you hit a home run on the first pitch
of the game tomorrow night. That was that was my
line to him. He kind of smiled the giggle at that.
The next night, first pitch he hits, he smokes it
(11:50):
down the right field line, but it hooked Balt. But
my point is this guy could actually, like we're talking about,
do what he wanted to do in the batter's box.
He knew his game, he knew it worked for him.
He knew that if he tried to power the ball,
put the ball in the air, like you're saying, hit
it too, well, well it's more than likely going to
be an out more than not. And you're right. Frustratingly,
ball was always falling in front of outfielders running out
(12:12):
their base less than two ols. He's probably the last
guy you wanted to see at the plate under those circumstances.
The ball is going to be moved somewhere somehow. So yeah,
he's all of that. He is that version of the
Unicorn at that particular moment in time. And I really
enjoyed my conversations with him. And on top of they
haven't even spoken about it. What an outfielder, what an
arm and the speed and everything else. Complete baseball player,
(12:36):
not just a guy that had all those singles. And
I didn't even realize to that extent, but this guy
was a complete player who was a force, very difficult
to defend, and on defense you had to know where
you're as a base runner, what's going on? Where's hetro at?
Because that was one of the better runs in the
game at that time.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So there's a famous story, and there's many versions of this,
and I'll give you the one that I think is
closest to the truth. In two thousand and one, he
hero signs with the Mariners and it.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
He was the first position player to jump from Nipon
Pro Baseball to MLB, so there's a lot of pressure
on him.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
There's a lot of hype about how good is he.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So he starts with the Mariners in spring training and
kind of like this happened with Shohei Otani, you know,
first spring training, he's getting the bat knocked out of
his hands. But with each Eero's case, this is what
he does.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
He's hitting weak round balls to the left side, he's
laking out infield hits. It's each row being each heierro
the manager is Lou Panella, not the most patient guy
in the world. So finally deep into spring training and
Lou says to him, hey, Son, you know Lou loved
to call people's son, right, He said, Son, you need
to pull the ball. I need to see you pull
(13:48):
the ball, and Ezio says, no problem. Next time up
in the game, he hits an absolute bomb to the
polls side home run, walks back in the dugout, puts
his helmet away and says to Lou, are you happy now?
And Lou says to him, Son, for the rest of
the year, you can do whatever you want, and he
(14:09):
pretty much did.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
He was the MVP and the Rookie of the Year.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But you're right, Joe, he had the ability if he
wanted to just absolutely crush a baseball. I'm not saying
he could hit seventy home runs. I'm not saying that
at all, but there was power in that bat. He
was just so gifted at getting the bat to the
baseball that if he wanted to hit pull side, yeah,
he'd sacrificed batting average, but he could do it on
(14:33):
those occasions when he wanted. Famous quote from him too,
I mean, this is back in the day again when
Nike had that ad, remember that chicks Dig the log
Ball ad? Oh yeah, yeah, break Mannix Tom Blavin. Right,
So each year, of course, was counter to all that
was going on. I mean, players are getting comically huge
with the help of peds. And here's each year just
(14:56):
you know, one hundred and seventy five pounds soak and
wet knocking out his singles. And they asked him about
this ad campaign, chickstick the log ball, and he said,
chicks to dig home runs aren't the ones who appealed
to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because
they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my
(15:17):
technique than my brute strength.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
How about that for self?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That is as answer right there? Oh my god. But
but again, as you again laying all this out, and
I'm just like a kind of a somewhat of a
devil's advocate. Would he play today? Would he be giving
the opportunity to do all this today?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Great question, you know, and great even though you can.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Even go like a Pete Rose and all these other
single sitters of their time, the kid, the guy with
the padres from the mar Yeah. I mean, here's an
example of a guy that keeps bumping around, and anytime
you read anything about him, you know his ability to
get hits and have to high batting average and be
a batting title winner is not really attractive to the
(16:00):
game much anymore. So I want to believe, like with
an intro, because this game was so complete, you know,
with the speed and everything else in the defense, that
there would still be like value regarding how the mathematical
equations worked out regarding war and whatever, and that he
would still be appealing because of his complete game. But
offensively speaking, and you probably have the information there. How
(16:22):
high was his on base percentage? I don't even know
what his on base percentage was. I think was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, he did not walk a lot, exactly a guy
like Steve Finley who was a good ballplayer. Yeah, more
walks and more total bases than each heer row. Each
Row will go into the Hall of Fame with the
lowest adjusted ops of any corner outfielder in the Hall
of Fame. He'll be below lou Brock. He's at one
oh seven, so barely just seven percent above league average
(16:47):
as a corner outfielder. That's et Ro Suzuki, So his
stock in trade obviously when we're not talking about base
running and speed and defense right here, we're just talking
about the offensive game playing at corner outfield singles hit
or didn't walk a lot that was each row. But
I agree with you, Joe, I think in today's game
that still should be valued. I want that guy up
there like our eyes, who's going to put the ball
(17:08):
in play with guys on base.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, again, you have to look at Onon Soto now,
I mean Drake Soto down in the amount of money
he just received and whatever offensive player you know, lacks
a little bit on defense, slacks with his arm, wlacks
with his base running, but nevertheless almost makes a billion
dollar billion dollars based on this. His ability to get
on basis probably his primary ability. I mean, he hit
(17:33):
some home runs, agreed, And with that he's drives in
some runs of course, so there's this offensive value. But
at the end of the day, if he didn't have
the discerning eye that he has Soto, which he does,
he would not be as attractive. So a big part
of his allure to today's game is his ability to
control the strikes own you can hear a lot of that.
He has an organized strikes on which I'm into, don't
(17:54):
get me wrong, But to think that he's getting paid
on that level compared to other guys like at Tiascar Hernandez.
If you look at his overall numbers, not that far
behind in the but there's a great disparitying amount of
money these guys make. But I think it really comes
down to one thing. It's just on base and the
ability to get on base and the ability to control strikes,
and he's getting primarily paid for that when it gets
(18:16):
to that big number. That's the primary reason why he's
getting all that money. And again there's a good argument
of discussion regarding the worth of that and was it
really justified compared to some other guys that are pretty
good hitters.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Also all good points. Hey, listen to Easier Row.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think there's no doubt he was born to play baseball, right,
just a pure hitter. He will be elected to the
Hall of Fame. We'll find out what that percentage is
on January twenty first. In the meantime, Joe, after this
quick break, I want to talk to you and dive
into your scouting background here on the multi sport athlete.
There's an outfielder for the Cincinnati Reads is actually going
(18:51):
back to college to play football. What happens when the
great athlete just doesn't make it in baseball.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts. Joe, I'm
not sure if you saw it was a minor note here.
Bubba Thompson, outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds. He's actually been
with a bunch of organizations. Originally a number one draft pick,
first round pick of the Texas Rangers. He is going
back to college. He's going to South Alabama to play quarterback.
(19:34):
He just basically cried uncle on his major league career,
or at least as attempt to be a continue to
be a professional baseball player. He's bounced around, He's been
waived five times in the last two years, had trouble
making contact, speed player, good size, all over six feet
two hundred pounds. But he's going back to play college football.
(19:57):
And Joe, I know you've come across a lot of
multi sport athletes. We hear a lot about some guys
who do try out with baseball, it doesn't work out,
they go to football, I'm not sure if I know
a comp the other way around, where you go play
football and you stay away from the game of baseball
for years and then go back.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
It's just so skilled specific.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Bubba Thompson has got a real shot of being a
really good college quarterback. There's no question about that. But
give me your first reaction, Joe, when you hear these stories,
whether Jog's the memory of other guys you thought were
great athletes who just you know, didn't translate their athletic
skills to the very specific skills of baseball.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Just pointing out some that did. I mean you look
at a Dion Sanders or Bo Jackson, Brian Jordan, these guys,
you know they they were able to do both things well.
I mean Dion Sanders, I think, and both of course,
probably the most obviously outstanding that we're pretty successful, did
well on both sides. I was with Bo with the
(20:55):
Angels and the one day, just to tell you how
skillful this guy was, we were worming up in the
outfield at Anaheim Stadium and there had been at earthquake
where they when the stadium was still encircled, the scoreboard
was impacted in a left center field and it's high.
It's way up there. So there's a bunch of workers
up there riveting and doing whatever they have to do
(21:16):
to fix the scoreboard. We come out to wear them
up and they start yelling, Bo, throw us a ball.
So like we're down on the right on the ground there,
looking straight up and right near the warning track. Both
picks up a ball had not warmed up whatsoever. Picks
up a ball takes one crow hop and it's a guy,
one of the workers right in the rivet. Mit. I mean,
that's just straight up, straight up. I don't even know
(21:38):
how high that would have been and what had equals
and the kind of like a clubhead speed it got
took to get the ball there. But he did that.
He did that. I threw embatting practice, and at that time,
guys were not and we're playing in Toronto and he's
hitting balls off that restaurant in dead center field, and
I'm like, whoa. I mean, if you watch other guys
and eventually Mark McGuire whatever, but Bo's hitting balls off
(21:59):
of that best arm. I actually, at the end of
his career, I was getting a morsels here, he says,
before we let this thing keep. Because the fact that
his legs or hip was bothering whatever. Can we put
him on the mound first? Can we least see if
this guy could be a relief pitcher. I swear I
meant that sincerely. I've never one of the best throwing
arms I've ever seen in my life. And then, of
(22:20):
course you could talk about the football all you want,
but I had that personal experience with bo. It was
he was that frigging impressive man with what he can do,
and I still wish that we had put him on
the mount. On another note, Kirk mccaskell Captain Kirk with
the Angels in the minor leagues. He I scotted him
(22:42):
at Phoenix College. Can remember the year of the draft
is like in the early eighties, and I al Golis
asked me to go double check him. So I go
out there and I'm watching him pitch right before the
draft so on like ninety ninety one, ninety two, which
was really good with a nasty, big spin and curveball.
Loved him, absolutely loved him, and we drafted him and
(23:02):
I become his manager in Salem, Oregon. But he also
get drafted by the Winnipeg Jets. His dad, Ted was
a hockey player, and I think he actually appeared in slapshot.
The movie is Pop did So Captain. We go up
to Salem and I'm in charge of signing him or not.
Larry him sends me the contracts and he had two contracts.
One to give up hockey completely and just signed for baseball.
(23:26):
I think that was like sixty thousand bucks and the
one to do both left it open, left the door
open from the play hockey was like twenty five I
think twenty five thousand. So he signed that one, and
after a couple of years he just took off and
played for the Winnipeg Jets a bit and then came
on back because I wasn't really watching him, but obviously
(23:46):
maybe it hurt too much speat in hockey or whatever,
but came back and had, you know, a decent pitching
career with the Agles, and I think then with the
White Sox. So on a first hand basis, that was
really unusual to have a baseball hockey kind of a
situation with Kurt Kurt mccaskell. So I've had that done
with Bo. It's just like you could talk, we consider
(24:06):
and create a list of guys like this, and it's
going to be a very short list. I think a
big part of it is just the training component, the
physical component. Your body needs a break man. Sometimes these
guys are like like Bo was just a different human
being and you could withstand all that stuff, but it's
going to be very it's it's very difficult to do,
and it's like he I think it's I don't even
(24:27):
know it's easier. Show hate doing hitting and pitching or
playing two sports on a on a major league level,
especially today where the training has been so advanced, the
size and speed, especially in football is really accelerated because
you're not't even talking about David Busher. Maybe in basketball,
Michael Jordan tried it. Even Chuck Connolly the rifleman.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Right Connors, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Chuck Connors. Excuse me, he tried it. So there's all
these but again it's like so few and far between.
But my best examples were Bo, which he could have
done anything, and Captain Kirk and hockey and baseball. I
liked him as a baseball pitcher and like I said,
he had some success. But those are my personal experiences.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, I mean, those who can do both are absolutely freaks.
There's no question. I think especially when it comes to
the game of baseball, it is just so skills specific,
and even more so I think than it used to be, Joe,
and I think you kind of hit it that it's
just got the training of it, the technology. It's such
a skills specific sport that it's hard to dabble in
both and succeed at both levels. Now, I remember Danny
(25:32):
Ainge played baseball for a while. Obviously he goes to
play basketball, became a great NBA player. As far as football, guys,
guys who left baseball to go play college football, it's
been done before. Chris Wenke, Drew Henson, you remember him
at Michigan, Yeah, brandon ed and Oklahoma State.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Here's an example too. You. I want to talk to
you about Joe.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And again it gets back to when you scout a player,
trying to find out not only about skill, but what's
in a player's head and heart.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Player, a high school player in Georgia named Donovan Tate.
He's in the two thousand and nine draft. The Padres
have a guy on him, a scout on him all
throughout the year. This guy literally follows him after games
to see who he's hanging out with and what kind
of food he's eating. So they had a complete dossier
on this guy, as you would for a number one pick.
(26:23):
Padress drafting number three overall.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
This is a draft that.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Has, by the way, another high school outfielder on the board,
Mike Trout okay at a high school pitcher named Zach Wheeler.
They're both also in this draft. Padres take Donovan Tate
at number three. He was committed to playing football at
the University of North Carolina and actually went to some
workouts there with them. Starting the year at North Carolina,
but the Padres give him almost seven million dollars to sign,
(26:50):
and he had a bunch of injuries in baseball. He
couldn't stay healthy on the field. The Dodgers tried to
give him a tryout and go at in the minor leagues.
If I only decide he's going to go back to
college and play football, so he goes to the Universe
of Arizona.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
It just didn't work out.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I mean, maybe he was away from a too long,
but he was a quarterback at Arizona, got in. He
completed one pass at the end of the year.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
He had to move on with his life. It wasn't
happening for him in football.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
But you know, Joe, I go back and.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Think about it. As a scout.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know this.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
You can spend so much time in the player, you
can have a complete report on him. It doesn't mean
you were wrong about the player. There's a lot of
things you just can't see. All you can do is
make a judgment at that time and place in terms
of what you see. And I know you look back
on it now you say, how can the Padre have
drafted Donovan Tate over Mike Trout? To high school outfielders,
(27:43):
one's going to Hall of Fame and one just never
even got to Major League Baseball. But give me a sense, Joe,
when you go out there and you scout these high
school kids seventeen eighteen years old, and you're trying to
complete a picture when they're not complete young men at all.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, high school kids are really not that college kids
are any easier, but high school kids are really difficult.
And the times that I had done that scouted. Of course,
Dick Schofield had Scoey when he was a baby coming
out of Springfield, Illinois. I go up to Idaho Falls
and he was our number one pick. I think it
was third or fourth in the country. I think his
(28:21):
bonus at that time I was nineteen eighty one, was
one hundred thousand bucks or something like that. Now, this
guy here, if you think about his career, very pedestrian,
but probably one of the best young players I've ever
had physically talent wise. I remember spring trainer instructional League,
Preston Gomez shows up and Preston and I are talking
(28:43):
watching him from a distance by the third base side,
and we both agreed, this guy's gonna hit. But where
are we going to play him. They thought he can't play,
he's gonna outgrow being a shortstop after the third base.
But the guy's definitely and hit hit for powers. I
mean I first one of the first games we played
was up in Helena, Montana, and he hit a ball
across the street on a roof on a garage and
(29:05):
I said, here we go. But then, of course it
just evened out. And it's not because of a makeup plot.
Loves scow he still loves Scoye, but the talent. Eventually
he got hit in the head. He got hit and
hit an instruction league game by Mitch Williams's brother Bruce
who also threwe hundred miles an hour. I think it
was the last spring Instruction League game of that one
(29:26):
particular year. So here's the guy with unlimited talent, high
school kid. Everybody was right, hundred percent right, and then
all of a sudden, boom, once shot to the helmet
and the hitting wasn't as assertive as it had been.
Defense proliferates, he gets even better, ends up being a
great shortstop who hit on occasion. So you saw all
(29:47):
these different tools coming into it, and until he used
to whistleballs in the right center as a baby in
Idaho Falls, and I got, damn, this is the real deal.
This guy is going to be a complete player. I
had Dicky Than as a roommate. Richard got hit in
the head. Also, Richard was my roommate in Quad Cities
in nineteen seventy six and he was on his way,
went from the Angels, gets traded to Houston. He's going
(30:07):
to be a guy, and he is a guy. One
of the toughest guys I've met. Still stay in touch
with Richard gets hitting hit by Mike Torres, I think,
and eventually comes back and plays in the big leagues
and really almost blind. Seriously, you can just see out
of one eye barely, And this dude's out there playing
and actually survived on a major league level. But again,
here's a great player that was impacted by an incident,
(30:31):
and there's others that do wash out. And I've had
players that when they don't eventually get to the big leagues,
I get disappointed as in myself as a developer, as
a coach and a manager, because I thought, gosh, these
guys really had the ability. But at some point there's
this little thing about every one of us that either
(30:52):
permits us to be that player in the big leagues
or restricts us from being that. And a lot of
it's internal demons, I'm not good enough, anxiety levels, they
just can't breathe in the moment. All this stuff is
a part of this that it's really almost impossible to
measure as a scout. So you check the physical boxes,
do your best ability to your best abilities. You try
(31:14):
to ascertain where's this guy like mentally cand he handle
all this? Last point. Geene Thompson, my favorite GINO said
the one thing you'd always imagine, and I took it
with him. Could you see that person that player walking
out in a big lead field because they see the
name on his back of his jersey. And if I
could envision that, that would be the last reason why
(31:34):
I would probably put him on my draft list and
say that this guy could be a big league player. So,
after all this evaluation said and done, you know, the
reality is, can I see this guy walk out at
Yankee State and name on the back of his jersey
and feel like this is a possibility or not? And
that's something that just really comes to experience.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Hey, Joe, we'll take a quick break. When we get
back on the Book of Joe. I want to talk
about the passing of Felix Mantilla, a colorful player, really
interesting career, and it gives us an excuse to talk
about Casey Stengel.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
We'll do that right after this Welcome Back to the
Book of Joe podcast.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, I mentioned Felix Mantilla, the infielder passed away.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
What a career he had.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
First of all, he was on the field for the
last out of the nineteen fifty seven World Series with
Milwaukee Braves. He was actually the first base runner who
reached against Harvey Haddocks. Remember that near perfect game Harvey
goes twelve perfect innings and Felix reached based on an
era in the thirteenth scores on Joe Edcock's home run
(32:47):
made the last out of a Sandy Kofax no hitter
in nineteen sixty two, and maybe famously of all, he
was drafted by the nineteen sixty two New York Mets
and the expansion draft. Actually had a pretty good year
for the Mets.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
That year.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
He hit two seventy five, which was the second highest
on the team behind Richie Ashburn. But he had the
pleasure of playing for the great Casey Stangle on the
nineteen sixty two Mets at the polo rounds. Joe, I
got to run this this scenario, by the way Casey
would run a game. This is July of sixty two.
The Mets are playing the Cardinals. The Mets are up
four to one. It's the eighth inning. He's got first
(33:24):
and third and nobody out. And I know you're a
big proponent of the zim play, right with that bunt
first and third. Well, Casey's got Roger Craig his picture
it in the box. That's easy to call that, right,
So he bunts it Roger Craig does. Felix Mantilla is
on third base, but Felix missed the sign. He doesn't go,
so the pitcher is Bobby Schantz, fields the ball. He
(33:46):
sees man Tea is not going anywhere now he.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Turns the throat to first.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
He throws it away and he was a great fielder,
Bobby Shantz, but the throwing error, so now Manteaz scores.
Two batters later, Casey's got to run around second base
as better as Joe Christopher. He puts the bunt sign
on with nobody out to move the guy to the
third so he bunts into the force play.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
It doesn't work out.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Next up is Jim Hickman. Casey puts the bunt on again.
This is like his number three hitter, Jim Hickman.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
He fouls it off, so Casey says, forget it.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
We're gonna go hit and run now. Of course, so
he puts on the hit and run play. But the
bench coach who's signaling the signals to the third base coach,
gives the wrong signal to the third base coach. Puts
the bunt on again. Casey sees the third base coach
give the bunt sign stands up, starts waving his arms,
and he's basically announcing that he wants the hit and run,
(34:38):
not the butnt play. Well, the runners get the idea,
they take off, but Hickman didn't see stangle, so Hickman
still thinks the butt play is on. So Hickman bunts
and it's a great bunt. And because the runners are
moving on the pitch like the unintentional bunt run.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Everybody's safe.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Now the bases are loaded and the next batter, Rodkanal,
hits a grand slam the Mets one, ten to three,
and after the game, Casey said says, the front of
home plate was our greatest asset.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Beautiful man, I listened. I was around Righty Herzog for
a bit with the Angels, and that's like one of
the best. I don't know how many months or a
year that Whitey was there, but my baseball knowledge increased
dramatically exponentially with what Whitey around. Everything about him I
just really try to absorb. But he talked about Casey,
he thought he was the brightest baseball man he had
(35:35):
been around. And he in spite of all the you
know the fact that he's kind of clown ish or whatever,
his appearance and all this stuff, But no, when it
came right down to baseball knowledge, our case was at
the top. For example, sacrifice bunch situation, you're a pitcher
and the bunch up, the bunt would be probably going
(35:56):
towards third base, he would have and he would encourage
his right handed pitchers to throw a break his pictures
to throw a breaking ball. If you throw a breaking ball,
is you more time to get off the mount, to
get in position to feel the ball because the ball
doesn't get to the plate in such a hurry. Little
things like that, I mean, thought about it, you know what,
That makes some sense to it, But who would break
something like that down. He probably observed that during the
(36:17):
course of one game, and maybe it worked all of
a sudden because back then, maybe the guys even throw
a slower curve ball to the point where the picture
really to get off the mound, because you knew if
they're gonna bunt, they were gonna bunt. And that was it.
Just like you're saying, all these awkward moments because the
manager put the play on, which was not never questioned
at that point. So, yeah, Whitey always told me about
(36:37):
the acumen of Casey Stangle. And again, as you're relaying
this story, man, it's just sad that today's world doesn't
get to witness a Casey Sangle in a dugout or
a Casey Stangle press conference afterwards, or you know, Casey
Stangle trying to explain strategy or whatever to a writer
(36:58):
when he just does not want the writer to know it.
But hell, he's talking about all that stuff. Man, I mean,
I guess that that's one of that's that is dinosauric,
that's not coming back. But my god, to me, that's
that was the allure of baseball back then. You could
you could talk about I'm talking about Whitey Herzog, talk
about Billy Martin, you could talk about Casey Stangle, you
can talk about Dick Williams, Gene everybody. I mean, ah
(37:20):
An Earl. I mean, it's just so when it comes
down to really attracting baseball fans, the characters of the game,
I really think had a big part of the allure.
And it certainly did for me and I probably did
for you also. That's what Casey was. And then and
give him credit. I mean, Wes Western, I'm sitting with
Wes eventually managing the big leagues. Was a catcher for
(37:40):
the New York Giants nearly fifties, caught in the World Series,
the third base coach first base coach for the Giants.
But I'm sitting with Wes at a Arizona State game,
and I'm just a really first year, second year scout
novice and I'm sitting up there and I watching ASU,
which is a very good ball club, And I said,
man's got to be easy, because they got all the
(38:02):
horses force in Arizona State Baseball versus the team that
were playing that day. They got all the horses. It's
kind of unfair. But then and then Wes said to me, yeah,
but you have to have the right jockey. And that
line always stuck with me because it's always about the
jockey does matter, and sometimes it's overlooked.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah, I mean, listen, we're old enough, we were we
know these guys. We remember the way he heards Ogsibilly Martin's,
the Dallas Green's, Davy Johnson's, and the Casey Stangles even
And it's just sad that those type of personalities really
are not allowed to flourish in the game.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
They simply are not.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It just cannot happen the way the game is administered today.
And listen, we all get, you know, the evolution of
the game, the way things move forward.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
We all understand that.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
But there's sometimes a cost that if you're young, you
don't realize the way that it could be and the
way that it was.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And just to flesh out the picture of.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Those who probably a lot of you would not know
anything about. Casey Stengel makes me laugh some of the things,
especially with the sixty two Mets. He had a relief pitcher,
Bob Moore, who get frustrated coming in after I think
it was his third straight outing. He gave up runs,
so he punched the dugout door and of course he
breaks his hand.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
This is in September.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
You know, the Mets are on their way to one
hundred and twenty losses, a record until the White Sox
broke it last year. And they asked, the reporters asked thingle,
you know, what are you going to do? They get
the picture broke his hand in a fit of anger
here and he said, well, if I was in first
or second place, he'd be fined.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
But what's the use? He said this about it.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
He had the Mets had listened.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
They were terrible, right, but they were especially terrible with
the catchers that year. Casey was the one who said, hey,
you need a catcher, otherwise you're going to.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Have a lot of pass balls.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
He said this about Chris Canazero. He's an amazing fella.
He's the only defensive catcher I've ever seen who can't catch.
Could you imagine a manager saying that today the course
of the season, after the Mets lost the game at
extra innings, he said, hey, we're a much improved ball club.
(40:10):
Now we lose an extra innings, I'm on favorites, Joe.
This is going back to he was managing the Toledo
mud Heads in nineteen twenty nine. Okay, his team is struggling,
guys are making errors all over the place, and he
has a team meeting and he says to his guys, Hey,
I've got a tip on the market on the stock
(40:32):
market for you guys by Pennsylvania Railroad, because tomorrow night
about a dozen of you bums will be riding on it.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
That's so good. Back to CC Chris kenizerra CC and
I were good friends. He was managing the Salinas Angels,
right after I got released, and then he had the
kind of jack I mean, the manager did that. He
permitted me to work out with them every day, and
I would work out with him and I would play
golf with him at Laguna Seca golf course anytime we
could in the morning because the pro at that golf
(41:05):
course brother was a minor league baseball player, so he
played for free. CC took care of me. Man, he
was a tough guy. He ran a tight ship. I'd
never realized Casey had said that about him because c
C was absolutely into the mechanics of catching. He's gone now, CEC,
he's gone, but he stayed in touch with me. I
stayed in touch with him. I have nothing but a
(41:27):
warm fuzzy about Chris Kenizarl because as a recently released
minor league baseball player. But I mean when I say
no money, I mean no money. That's not an exaggeration.
He took care of me, He helped me out, he
gave me some dignity, and we had a really good
time on the golf course. So whatever case he said,
it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying CC really treated
(41:48):
me well and I do miss him.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, one more for Casey, I actually give you two
more because you can relate to this. When you made
me think of this, Joe, and you said you had
no money, literally no money, literally none, Casey had a
line you have to go broke through three times to
learn how to make a living.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
That's pretty wise, you know what.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It was way more than three times, absolutely right, and
it's true. I mean, I coming up, I'm not going
to go with the SOB stories. But when you're a
minor league player, you get for sure, you get five
hundred a month with quad cities, you get five hundred
two fifty every two weeks, and you got to live
off this. You get six dollars a day meal money,
and you only get paid during the season. So the
off season was very important. That would be like driving
(42:31):
a limousine. For me, as an example, working at third base, lunchonette,
delivering hogies, making hogies, and mopping the floor twice a day.
It was great stuff. I would not trade those moments
for any of me. Talk about the struggle in the
book and Joe, the struggle is so so important and
those that overlook that you're missing something, man, I mean,
obviously things a little bit better now in regards to stability, however, Yeah,
(42:56):
I would trade all of that to go back in
time like that and have to go through all that
stuff all over you And I would in a heartbeat.
I would that's where you're develop being all that intuition
eventually that you're going to have the work ethic that
you can eventually possess and to have a desire of thought,
a want, a goal and then eventually reach it. And
(43:16):
what it takes to get there. The passion involved in
the day is incredible. The tireless work ethic involved to
get to that point is wonderful. And those are the
things that I wish upon everybody, every youth, that as
they grow up, that they have an absolute goal in
mind and then they have to struggle to get there,
and then it doesn't always work out, and you do
(43:37):
go broke three times and you have to be you
utilize your ingenuity to work your way through it and
never lose faith. These are the things that really matter.
And I'm so grateful that I never got anything before
it was my time to have it.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, I just I love that, And you hit on this, Joe,
it's really passion. If you've got it, that's what's going
to pull you through, So you have to go broke
three times to learn how to make a living.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I love that's lot more for you.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
From great Casey Stangle. The secret of managing is to
keep the guys who hate you away from the guys
who are undecided.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah, I just.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Think you know, whether you agree with that or not,
it's it's just so cool to me that we can
sit here and talk about Casey Stangle, someone who was
born in the nineteenth century and his words are timeless.
He was such a character and a personality that what
he stands for, what he did, still resonates all these
years later, and Casey's been gone a long time. I mean,
(44:35):
that's having an impact on the game of baseball, if
not life.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
That just validates Whitey's Herzog's assessment of Casey. That's brilliant.
Those kind of things, those little intuitive moments, those the
ability to cull things down to the point where they
there's right front of your face, but when you're able
to verbalize it in that way, that to me is
that is genius. And he was known about the Professor,
right was he known as.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
The professor Professor? Yes, he was.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I mean that's so. And his word salads, Oh my god,
they were the best ever. But that again, that just
Thinkain validates with what he had said about him, and
I just you just wish that the game was more
permitted to run in that direction more than it is
where it's just so buttoned down and it just lacks
(45:21):
that kind of appeal. And again we talk about progress.
I'm here to say, man, I don't always agree with
the word progress, the definition. It just means that you're
doing things definitely not necessarily in a better way.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, Joe, you always take us home with some words
of wisdom. And I put the pressure on you here
by giving you some Casey stangle, the best of Casey stangle.
So I don't know if you can top it, but
I always do count on you to bring us home.
So what do you got today?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah? I just got this from my buddy Michael Stewart.
We went to an event at McDill Air Force Based
the other day with General Fent and Brian fentn what
a good guy who went there for like this New
Year's kind of a party. And Michael threw this at
me afterwards. He just found it. I think it's great
and it comes from our boy Mick Jagger, who's one
of my idols too. People are so brainwashed by the
(46:12):
rules that they don't know what really matters. Okay, and
you're just talking about Whitey and Kate. We're talking about
Whitey and Casey and all this different stuff that it's
just it's just the natural flow of a human being
and his ability to express himself and not worried about
the job security whatever, and just and really just expose himself.
(46:33):
Just expose yourself and really, this is who I am,
this is what I think, is what I believe in.
And that's to me, that's always the most interesting. And
there's no narrative, there's there's there's no talking points here.
It's just it's an unfiltered mind working at its at
its highest level. And I love that. I love the
unfiltered mind. I love those that don't necessarily work with
(46:54):
the governor. I need those thoughts. I need to know
what you're thinking. You need to challenge me and I
that's that's it. Uh. And I think that's what these
guys did. Uh. We're worried about hurting your feelings, and
you know, feelings were you know, we always had feelings,
but they were a little bit more protected. Back then
was a little bit there were more. There was more
protections surrounding our feelings than there is today. We're so
(47:15):
we're so exposed and easily offended. I love that. I
love the method. I love the toughness of that. That
that era, so people are so brainwashed by the rules
that they don't know what really matters. Mister Mick Jagger,
I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, it's a it's a pretty good line up today.
Each hero, Casey Stangle, Mick Jagger, sign you up.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Not bad, not bad, brother, beautiful.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Man, well done, well done.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
All right, Tommy, Thanks buddy.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hey Daron, Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
It's the latest episode of the Book of Joe Podcasts
with Me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden. Joey
got a big week come up next week it's Hall
of Fame Week Baseball Hall of Fame balloting from the
Baseball Writers. The results are announced January twenty first, and
I know there's a lot of attention on eat Rose
(00:38):
Tozuki Joe and whether he's going to be a unanimous selection.
Of course, only Mariano Rivera has been a unanimous selection
among the writers. I don't know how you feel about it, Joe,
but I want to get this out of the way.
Way too much attention is put on whether a guy
is unanimous or not. It's such a trivial thing. It's
really only a matter of whether I there's four hundred
(01:01):
or so voters, as a matter of whether every buddy
agrees that the sky is blue. And that's hard to do,
right with writers. I think it just draws too much
attention away from it. It's not a reflection of the
value of the player. It's more of a quirk or
the voting so let me get that out of the way.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Your take on the voting, I think it's interesting, Like
there's the only part about that that is interesting, Like
who does not vote for somebody like that and why?
That would be the only interesting part to me.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I agree, I would like to know those things, but
we don't get an answer, Like we don't know who
didn't vote for Derek Jeter. We don't know the reasons why.
So I wish that we did have those, but we
don't get them.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
That would be the only reason why it's interesting to me,
because who didn't and why they did not vote for
that person. You look at it eachure, you look at
Derek and all these different people, and there's probably others
that would have qualified. Based on having been involved in
the game. You and I have been. We've seen it
up front. We know it. You know the personalities that people,
et cetera. Historians are the game, all that kind of
(02:00):
good stuff. There's got to be there's our bias of prejudice.
I mean, I mean, there's always there's always tough graders,
right and every every industry. As a scout, there's always
tough graders. As a manager coach, there's tough graders and
then and there's those that are very easy at this
and find all the reasons to put somebody like in
a Hall of Fame or in the starting lineup or whatever.
(02:21):
So yeah, more than anything, I just want to know
who did not vote for somebody and why when it's
so obvious that you should or have to vote for
in Anizio Suzuki.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
One of the things that really interested me, Joe, is
when you look back on the career of Hall of famers,
because we all tend to think that the Hall of Famers
you can see them coming a mile away, they hit
the ground running, that you know, the greatness is obvious,
and that's not always the case, as you know. And
I want to go back to something I know you've
talked about a lot as a manager when you have
players is never get in the way of greatness. And
(02:52):
I think eachier Row's story is a perfect example of that.
You have to remember that when each Row was drafted
in Japan, he did wasn't until the fourth round. Get this, Joe.
Each Row weighed one hundred and twenty pounds when he
was drafted one hundred and twenty pounds. His first manager
(03:13):
with the ORX blue Wave. Didn't think he was ever
going to hit with that style. It really hadn't changed.
He was actually a natural right handed hitter, and his
dad taught him to hit lefty because rightly so. He
reasoned that the left handed batter's box is closer to
first base than the right handed batter's box, and a
small guy with speed, why not get him the first base,
(03:33):
you know, a step closer each tier. Of course, took
that to another level with that gliding style. He seemed
to be hitting on the run on his way to
first base. But anyway, his first two years he didn't
play a whole lot with the ORX team. He hit
two twenty six, and after that season or ex changed
managers and they brought in I'm gonna call him the
(03:54):
Joe Madden of Japan, a guy by the name of
Okira Oji who played fourteen years in the big leagues.
Was never much of a hitter, but as a manager
a gained a repute for really bringing out the best
in players. You know, he was a guy who let
guys do I don't want to say anything they wanted.
But again, he didn't want to get in the way
(04:15):
of greatness, so he had a guy like Ichi Row
and he didn't want to change him at all. He said,
you hit the way you want to hit. He said,
you're going to bat lead off and play every day
for me, and did one other thing. Joe Ichiro Suzuki
is a very common name in Japan. E Heiro essentially
is a name that honors firstborn son. Suzuki is I
(04:36):
think the second most common name in Japan. So it's
kind of like the Joe Smith on the Org's Blue
Wave if you have someone named Ichiro Suzuki.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And Oji decided I want you to stand out.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
We're going to put just Ichiro on the back of
your jersey and each Tiro is twenty to twenty six hitter.
He's like, I'm not really that comfortable with it, but
whatever my manager believes in me, I think I'll do it.
So he played with the name Etiro on the back
of his jersey, which got a lot of a tension.
But more than that, Ea Tierro just hit and hit
and hit. That first year, he played one hundred and
(05:08):
thirty games. It's a full season over in Japan. He
had two hundred and ten hits. Two hundred and ten
hits in one hundred and thirty games he hit three
eighty five. It would be eighteen years before Eatier Road
did not hit three hundred in a season. I love
that story, Joe, because these Hall of Famers are not
always just ready made right out of the box. And
(05:30):
again it gets back to what you talked about. As
a manager, one of your responsibilities is to bring out
the greatness and a player and not get in the
way of greatness.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah. I love the idea that he just let him
go and do his thing. I mean, in a situation
like that, just listening to this whole story, you have
to let him fail with what he does well or naturally,
let's put it that way. So he had this unique style.
So did Stan Musual, So did Ted Williams. So did
Joe Demajo, So did Paul Mulatar, so did Julio Franco.
(06:03):
I mean, there's a lot of good players, great players
that did things I thought I always thought were indigenous
to them. Even not a Hall of Famer, but Bob Boone,
the way he caught, the way he sat on the ground.
I mean that would be very popular today with going
down on one knee, but Boone actually put his butt
on the ground. If you look at a lot of
great players, just primarily in baseball. I don't know that
there's as many different kind of styles when it comes
(06:25):
to running backs or throwing the football, basketball shooters. I
mean me, Dick Barnett used to kick himself in the
butt when he shot. I mean, there's different release points, whatever.
But baseball has all these guys that did something a
little bit differently. But nevertheless, at the point of contact.
If you took a slow still photograph of vat Show
at contact, or Jeter at contact, or Demago at contact, whatever,
(06:48):
at contact, they all pretty much look the same. It's
just they get there differently. And a lot of that
is based on how your body works and like you said,
years of having done something one way physically mechanically. So
kudos to this coach the manager, because I believe in
that you just you permit the guy to have, permit
his body to work as it because if he's been
(07:09):
doing it since he's ten, twelve, thirteen years old, it's
very difficult to change the body movement even at twenty
twenty one to twenty two. So all that makes sense
to me. I love that. And when you talk about
intro specifically as an opposition. As an opponent, he had
this really incredible ability to look out on the field
(07:30):
and I swear he'd watch where the defense was and
he would set it up mentally, I'm going to try
it at the ball here or there. It's almost like
he was hitting a fungo where you when you're hitting
fungos to infielder or not feel that you throw the
ball up in the air in front of you. He
hit it, and you're able to manipulate the bathead to
the point where you could hit the ball exactly where
you wanted to. He kind of like fungoed life pitching.
(07:50):
It was just incredible. Remember for us, my take on
it was to give him the lines on the infield,
third base and the first baseline. You just give him
that because I thought I saw too many balls in
both holes and like choppers over the mouth, so I
wanted to bunch the middle of the infield and then
in the outfield obviously opposite outfielder in etc. The thing
(08:11):
about him he could hit for pop if you wanted to,
But of course that wasn't his game. But an incredible
ability was it? We Willie Keeler was it that could
hit the ball where you ain't. He could absolute hit
the ball where you ate.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, we really killer who was born I think during
the Civil War, just about them. That's how long I
think you have to go back to find a true
comp to Etiro Suzuki. Eighty one percent of his hits
were singles. Rod Caru was in the seventies and percentage
of singles, he was more of a singles hitter than
Rod Caru. There's a great stat for you. There are
(08:46):
two seasons in which Etiro had more than two hundred singles,
not two hundred hits, two hundred singles. If you add
up every player who ever played the game of baseball
and all of their seasons with two hundred singles.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
You come up with one. It's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
By the way Akiro og his manager with the Blue Wave,
who allowed him to flourish and be the player that
he was. He also had Hideo Nomo with the Contentsuit Buffaloes,
and Nomo had a unique way of training, and you know,
he was lucky that he had a manager like Ogi,
who you know, rather than conforming to industry standards, which
(09:27):
is very common in the industry, he allowed Nomo to
train the way that he wanted to train, and that
certainly worked out well for Hideo Nomo. But you're right
about each tierro Joe. I've never seen a player who
made an art out of hitting the ball softly. It
was just amazing. He was actually better off each row
(09:48):
was when he mishit the baseball, because if you were
an infielder and you had to move more than two
steps left, right, or in, you were not throwing him out.
And you could say he was lucky, but he wasn't
because the way that he was gliding and all the
while keeping his hands back, he was designed just to
get a piece of the baseball. He lived to get
(10:11):
his two hundred hits every year. He was going to
get them one way or the other. And the way
you pile hit upon hit year after year is you
never give in. Your goal is to just make contact
with the baseball. It is not to drive the ball
out of the park. And personally, for me, I found
(10:31):
that fascinating to watch, maybe especially because he played in
an era where we didn't see a lot of that. Listen,
he came along in two thousand and one and that
was right before steroid testing, and those three seasons are
the only three consecutive seasons in baseball history where the
slugging percentage was four to twenty seven or greater. So basically,
it was the greatest slugging era of Major League baseball
(10:52):
history and a long comes of modern wee Willie Keeler,
I'm just fascinating that Joe, that he came over with
that skill set and did not try to be someone else,
to be a different kind of hitter based on what
was happening around him in the game.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, as you're talking like that all the way through it,
I'm thinking of Wade Bogs. Also Boxy. He did kind
of that game. Also. He was able to spray the
ball around as he wanted to. But then again, if
you ever watched Wait VP, the guy the ball can
go far. If you watch each ROMVP, he would just
show it off in Seattle once in a while he
started pulling the ball into the bleachers and I remember,
(11:29):
and I think, I don't know if I've relaid this story.
On a two thousand and nine All Star game, met
up with him in a restaurant the night before the
game and send a bottle of wine over to his table,
and I said, I'm sending this battle with the intent
that you hit a home run on the first pitch
of the game tomorrow night. That was that was my
line to him. He kind of smiled the giggle at that.
The next night, first pitch he hits, he smokes it
(11:50):
down the right field line, but it hooked Balt. But
my point is this guy could actually, like we're talking about,
do what he wanted to do in the batter's box.
He knew his game, he knew it worked for him.
He knew that if he tried to power the ball,
put the ball in the air, like you're saying, hit
it too, well, well it's more than likely going to
be an out more than not. And you're right. Frustratingly,
ball was always falling in front of outfielders running out
(12:12):
their base less than two ols. He's probably the last
guy you wanted to see at the plate under those circumstances.
The ball is going to be moved somewhere somehow. So yeah,
he's all of that. He is that version of the
Unicorn at that particular moment in time. And I really
enjoyed my conversations with him. And on top of they
haven't even spoken about it. What an outfielder, what an
arm and the speed and everything else. Complete baseball player,
(12:36):
not just a guy that had all those singles. And
I didn't even realize to that extent, but this guy
was a complete player who was a force, very difficult
to defend, and on defense you had to know where
you're as a base runner, what's going on? Where's hetro at?
Because that was one of the better runs in the
game at that time.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So there's a famous story, and there's many versions of this,
and I'll give you the one that I think is
closest to the truth. In two thousand and one, he
hero signs with the Mariners and it.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Was a big deal.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
He was the first position player to jump from Nipon
Pro Baseball to MLB, so there's a lot of pressure
on him.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
There's a lot of hype about how good is he.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So he starts with the Mariners in spring training and
kind of like this happened with Shohei Otani, you know,
first spring training, he's getting the bat knocked out of
his hands. But with each Eero's case, this is what
he does.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
He's hitting weak round balls to the left side, he's
laking out infield hits. It's each row being each heierro
the manager is Lou Panella, not the most patient guy
in the world. So finally deep into spring training and
Lou says to him, hey, Son, you know Lou loved
to call people's son, right, He said, Son, you need
to pull the ball. I need to see you pull
(13:48):
the ball, and Ezio says, no problem. Next time up
in the game, he hits an absolute bomb to the
polls side home run, walks back in the dugout, puts
his helmet away and says to Lou, are you happy now?
And Lou says to him, Son, for the rest of
the year, you can do whatever you want, and he
(14:09):
pretty much did.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
He was the MVP and the Rookie of the Year.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But you're right, Joe, he had the ability if he
wanted to just absolutely crush a baseball. I'm not saying
he could hit seventy home runs. I'm not saying that
at all, but there was power in that bat. He
was just so gifted at getting the bat to the
baseball that if he wanted to hit pull side, yeah,
he'd sacrificed batting average, but he could do it on
(14:33):
those occasions when he wanted. Famous quote from him too,
I mean, this is back in the day again when
Nike had that ad, remember that chicks Dig the log
Ball ad? Oh yeah, yeah, break Mannix Tom Blavin. Right,
So each year, of course, was counter to all that
was going on. I mean, players are getting comically huge
with the help of peds. And here's each year just
(14:56):
you know, one hundred and seventy five pounds soak and
wet knocking out his singles. And they asked him about
this ad campaign, chickstick the log ball, and he said,
chicks to dig home runs aren't the ones who appealed
to me. I think there's sexiness in infield hits because
they require technique. I'd rather impress the chicks with my
(15:17):
technique than my brute strength.
Speaker 4 (15:20):
How about that for self?
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That is as answer right there? Oh my god. But
but again, as you again laying all this out, and
I'm just like a kind of a somewhat of a
devil's advocate. Would he play today? Would he be giving
the opportunity to do all this today?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Great question, you know, and great even though you can.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Even go like a Pete Rose and all these other
single sitters of their time, the kid, the guy with
the padres from the mar Yeah. I mean, here's an
example of a guy that keeps bumping around, and anytime
you read anything about him, you know his ability to
get hits and have to high batting average and be
a batting title winner is not really attractive to the
(16:00):
game much anymore. So I want to believe, like with
an intro, because this game was so complete, you know,
with the speed and everything else in the defense, that
there would still be like value regarding how the mathematical
equations worked out regarding war and whatever, and that he
would still be appealing because of his complete game. But
offensively speaking, and you probably have the information there. How
(16:22):
high was his on base percentage? I don't even know
what his on base percentage was. I think was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Yeah, he did not walk a lot, exactly a guy
like Steve Finley who was a good ballplayer. Yeah, more
walks and more total bases than each heer row. Each
Row will go into the Hall of Fame with the
lowest adjusted ops of any corner outfielder in the Hall
of Fame. He'll be below lou Brock. He's at one
oh seven, so barely just seven percent above league average
(16:47):
as a corner outfielder. That's et Ro Suzuki, So his
stock in trade obviously when we're not talking about base
running and speed and defense right here, we're just talking
about the offensive game playing at corner outfield singles hit
or didn't walk a lot that was each row. But
I agree with you, Joe, I think in today's game
that still should be valued. I want that guy up
there like our eyes, who's going to put the ball
(17:08):
in play with guys on base.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Yeah, again, you have to look at Onon Soto now,
I mean Drake Soto down in the amount of money
he just received and whatever offensive player you know, lacks
a little bit on defense, slacks with his arm, wlacks
with his base running, but nevertheless almost makes a billion
dollar billion dollars based on this. His ability to get
on basis probably his primary ability. I mean, he hit
(17:33):
some home runs, agreed, And with that he's drives in
some runs of course, so there's this offensive value. But
at the end of the day, if he didn't have
the discerning eye that he has Soto, which he does,
he would not be as attractive. So a big part
of his allure to today's game is his ability to
control the strikes own you can hear a lot of that.
He has an organized strikes on which I'm into, don't
(17:54):
get me wrong, But to think that he's getting paid
on that level compared to other guys like at Tiascar Hernandez.
If you look at his overall numbers, not that far
behind in the but there's a great disparitying amount of
money these guys make. But I think it really comes
down to one thing. It's just on base and the
ability to get on base and the ability to control strikes,
and he's getting primarily paid for that when it gets
(18:16):
to that big number. That's the primary reason why he's
getting all that money. And again there's a good argument
of discussion regarding the worth of that and was it
really justified compared to some other guys that are pretty
good hitters.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Also all good points. Hey, listen to Easier Row.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I think there's no doubt he was born to play baseball, right,
just a pure hitter. He will be elected to the
Hall of Fame. We'll find out what that percentage is
on January twenty first. In the meantime, Joe, after this
quick break, I want to talk to you and dive
into your scouting background here on the multi sport athlete.
There's an outfielder for the Cincinnati Reads is actually going
(18:51):
back to college to play football. What happens when the
great athlete just doesn't make it in baseball.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
We'll talk about that right after this.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Welcome back to the Book of Joe Podcasts. Joe, I'm
not sure if you saw it was a minor note here.
Bubba Thompson, outfielder with the Cincinnati Reds. He's actually been
with a bunch of organizations. Originally a number one draft pick,
first round pick of the Texas Rangers. He is going
back to college. He's going to South Alabama to play quarterback.
(19:34):
He just basically cried uncle on his major league career,
or at least as attempt to be a continue to
be a professional baseball player. He's bounced around, He's been
waived five times in the last two years, had trouble
making contact, speed player, good size, all over six feet
two hundred pounds. But he's going back to play college football.
(19:57):
And Joe, I know you've come across a lot of
multi sport athletes. We hear a lot about some guys
who do try out with baseball, it doesn't work out,
they go to football, I'm not sure if I know
a comp the other way around, where you go play
football and you stay away from the game of baseball
for years and then go back.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
It's just so skilled specific.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Bubba Thompson has got a real shot of being a
really good college quarterback. There's no question about that. But
give me your first reaction, Joe, when you hear these stories,
whether Jog's the memory of other guys you thought were
great athletes who just you know, didn't translate their athletic
skills to the very specific skills of baseball.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
Just pointing out some that did. I mean you look
at a Dion Sanders or Bo Jackson, Brian Jordan, these guys,
you know they they were able to do both things well.
I mean Dion Sanders, I think, and both of course,
probably the most obviously outstanding that we're pretty successful, did
well on both sides. I was with Bo with the
(20:55):
Angels and the one day, just to tell you how
skillful this guy was, we were worming up in the
outfield at Anaheim Stadium and there had been at earthquake
where they when the stadium was still encircled, the scoreboard
was impacted in a left center field and it's high.
It's way up there. So there's a bunch of workers
up there riveting and doing whatever they have to do
(21:16):
to fix the scoreboard. We come out to wear them
up and they start yelling, Bo, throw us a ball.
So like we're down on the right on the ground there,
looking straight up and right near the warning track. Both
picks up a ball had not warmed up whatsoever. Picks
up a ball takes one crow hop and it's a guy,
one of the workers right in the rivet. Mit. I mean,
that's just straight up, straight up. I don't even know
(21:38):
how high that would have been and what had equals
and the kind of like a clubhead speed it got
took to get the ball there. But he did that.
He did that. I threw embatting practice, and at that time,
guys were not and we're playing in Toronto and he's
hitting balls off that restaurant in dead center field, and
I'm like, whoa. I mean, if you watch other guys
and eventually Mark McGuire whatever, but Bo's hitting balls off
(21:59):
of that best arm. I actually, at the end of
his career, I was getting a morsels here, he says,
before we let this thing keep. Because the fact that
his legs or hip was bothering whatever. Can we put
him on the mound first? Can we least see if
this guy could be a relief pitcher. I swear I
meant that sincerely. I've never one of the best throwing
arms I've ever seen in my life. And then, of
(22:20):
course you could talk about the football all you want,
but I had that personal experience with bo. It was
he was that frigging impressive man with what he can do,
and I still wish that we had put him on
the mount. On another note, Kirk mccaskell Captain Kirk with
the Angels in the minor leagues. He I scotted him
(22:42):
at Phoenix College. Can remember the year of the draft
is like in the early eighties, and I al Golis
asked me to go double check him. So I go
out there and I'm watching him pitch right before the
draft so on like ninety ninety one, ninety two, which
was really good with a nasty, big spin and curveball.
Loved him, absolutely loved him, and we drafted him and
(23:02):
I become his manager in Salem, Oregon. But he also
get drafted by the Winnipeg Jets. His dad, Ted was
a hockey player, and I think he actually appeared in slapshot.
The movie is Pop did So Captain. We go up
to Salem and I'm in charge of signing him or not.
Larry him sends me the contracts and he had two contracts.
One to give up hockey completely and just signed for baseball.
(23:26):
I think that was like sixty thousand bucks and the
one to do both left it open, left the door
open from the play hockey was like twenty five I
think twenty five thousand. So he signed that one, and
after a couple of years he just took off and
played for the Winnipeg Jets a bit and then came
on back because I wasn't really watching him, but obviously
(23:46):
maybe it hurt too much speat in hockey or whatever,
but came back and had, you know, a decent pitching
career with the Agles, and I think then with the
White Sox. So on a first hand basis, that was
really unusual to have a baseball hockey kind of a
situation with Kurt Kurt mccaskell. So I've had that done
with Bo. It's just like you could talk, we consider
(24:06):
and create a list of guys like this, and it's
going to be a very short list. I think a
big part of it is just the training component, the
physical component. Your body needs a break man. Sometimes these
guys are like like Bo was just a different human
being and you could withstand all that stuff, but it's
going to be very it's it's very difficult to do,
and it's like he I think it's I don't even
(24:27):
know it's easier. Show hate doing hitting and pitching or
playing two sports on a on a major league level,
especially today where the training has been so advanced, the
size and speed, especially in football is really accelerated because
you're not't even talking about David Busher. Maybe in basketball,
Michael Jordan tried it. Even Chuck Connolly the rifleman.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Right Connors, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Chuck Connors. Excuse me, he tried it. So there's all
these but again it's like so few and far between.
But my best examples were Bo, which he could have
done anything, and Captain Kirk and hockey and baseball. I
liked him as a baseball pitcher and like I said,
he had some success. But those are my personal experiences.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Yeah, I mean, those who can do both are absolutely freaks.
There's no question. I think especially when it comes to
the game of baseball, it is just so skills specific,
and even more so I think than it used to be, Joe,
and I think you kind of hit it that it's
just got the training of it, the technology. It's such
a skills specific sport that it's hard to dabble in
both and succeed at both levels. Now, I remember Danny
(25:32):
Ainge played baseball for a while. Obviously he goes to
play basketball, became a great NBA player. As far as football, guys,
guys who left baseball to go play college football, it's
been done before. Chris Wenke, Drew Henson, you remember him
at Michigan, Yeah, brandon ed and Oklahoma State.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
Here's an example too. You. I want to talk to
you about Joe.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
And again it gets back to when you scout a player,
trying to find out not only about skill, but what's
in a player's head and heart.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
There was a.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Player, a high school player in Georgia named Donovan Tate.
He's in the two thousand and nine draft. The Padres
have a guy on him, a scout on him all
throughout the year. This guy literally follows him after games
to see who he's hanging out with and what kind
of food he's eating. So they had a complete dossier
on this guy, as you would for a number one pick.
(26:23):
Padress drafting number three overall.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
This is a draft that.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Has, by the way, another high school outfielder on the board,
Mike Trout okay at a high school pitcher named Zach Wheeler.
They're both also in this draft. Padres take Donovan Tate
at number three. He was committed to playing football at
the University of North Carolina and actually went to some
workouts there with them. Starting the year at North Carolina,
but the Padres give him almost seven million dollars to sign,
(26:50):
and he had a bunch of injuries in baseball. He
couldn't stay healthy on the field. The Dodgers tried to
give him a tryout and go at in the minor leagues.
If I only decide he's going to go back to
college and play football, so he goes to the Universe
of Arizona.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
It just didn't work out.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
I mean, maybe he was away from a too long,
but he was a quarterback at Arizona, got in. He
completed one pass at the end of the year.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
That was it.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
He had to move on with his life. It wasn't
happening for him in football.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
But you know, Joe, I go back and.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Think about it. As a scout.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
You know this.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
You can spend so much time in the player, you
can have a complete report on him. It doesn't mean
you were wrong about the player. There's a lot of
things you just can't see. All you can do is
make a judgment at that time and place in terms
of what you see. And I know you look back
on it now you say, how can the Padre have
drafted Donovan Tate over Mike Trout? To high school outfielders,
(27:43):
one's going to Hall of Fame and one just never
even got to Major League Baseball. But give me a sense, Joe,
when you go out there and you scout these high
school kids seventeen eighteen years old, and you're trying to
complete a picture when they're not complete young men at all.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah, high school kids are really not that college kids
are any easier, but high school kids are really difficult.
And the times that I had done that scouted. Of course,
Dick Schofield had Scoey when he was a baby coming
out of Springfield, Illinois. I go up to Idaho Falls
and he was our number one pick. I think it
was third or fourth in the country. I think his
(28:21):
bonus at that time I was nineteen eighty one, was
one hundred thousand bucks or something like that. Now, this
guy here, if you think about his career, very pedestrian,
but probably one of the best young players I've ever
had physically talent wise. I remember spring trainer instructional League,
Preston Gomez shows up and Preston and I are talking
(28:43):
watching him from a distance by the third base side,
and we both agreed, this guy's gonna hit. But where
are we going to play him. They thought he can't play,
he's gonna outgrow being a shortstop after the third base.
But the guy's definitely and hit hit for powers. I
mean I first one of the first games we played
was up in Helena, Montana, and he hit a ball
across the street on a roof on a garage and
(29:05):
I said, here we go. But then, of course it
just evened out. And it's not because of a makeup plot.
Loves scow he still loves Scoye, but the talent. Eventually
he got hit in the head. He got hit and
hit an instruction league game by Mitch Williams's brother Bruce
who also threwe hundred miles an hour. I think it
was the last spring Instruction League game of that one
(29:26):
particular year. So here's the guy with unlimited talent, high
school kid. Everybody was right, hundred percent right, and then
all of a sudden, boom, once shot to the helmet
and the hitting wasn't as assertive as it had been.
Defense proliferates, he gets even better, ends up being a
great shortstop who hit on occasion. So you saw all
(29:47):
these different tools coming into it, and until he used
to whistleballs in the right center as a baby in
Idaho Falls, and I got, damn, this is the real deal.
This guy is going to be a complete player. I
had Dicky Than as a roommate. Richard got hit in
the head. Also, Richard was my roommate in Quad Cities
in nineteen seventy six and he was on his way,
went from the Angels, gets traded to Houston. He's going
(30:07):
to be a guy, and he is a guy. One
of the toughest guys I've met. Still stay in touch
with Richard gets hitting hit by Mike Torres, I think,
and eventually comes back and plays in the big leagues
and really almost blind. Seriously, you can just see out
of one eye barely, And this dude's out there playing
and actually survived on a major league level. But again,
here's a great player that was impacted by an incident,
(30:31):
and there's others that do wash out. And I've had
players that when they don't eventually get to the big leagues,
I get disappointed as in myself as a developer, as
a coach and a manager, because I thought, gosh, these
guys really had the ability. But at some point there's
this little thing about every one of us that either
(30:52):
permits us to be that player in the big leagues
or restricts us from being that. And a lot of
it's internal demons, I'm not good enough, anxiety levels, they
just can't breathe in the moment. All this stuff is
a part of this that it's really almost impossible to
measure as a scout. So you check the physical boxes,
do your best ability to your best abilities. You try
(31:14):
to ascertain where's this guy like mentally cand he handle
all this? Last point. Geene Thompson, my favorite GINO said
the one thing you'd always imagine, and I took it
with him. Could you see that person that player walking
out in a big lead field because they see the
name on his back of his jersey. And if I
could envision that, that would be the last reason why
(31:34):
I would probably put him on my draft list and
say that this guy could be a big league player. So,
after all this evaluation said and done, you know, the
reality is, can I see this guy walk out at
Yankee State and name on the back of his jersey
and feel like this is a possibility or not? And
that's something that just really comes to experience.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Hey, Joe, we'll take a quick break. When we get
back on the Book of Joe. I want to talk
about the passing of Felix Mantilla, a colorful player, really
interesting career, and it gives us an excuse to talk
about Casey Stengel.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
We'll do that right after this Welcome Back to the
Book of Joe podcast.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Yeah, I mentioned Felix Mantilla, the infielder passed away.
Speaker 4 (32:26):
What a career he had.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
First of all, he was on the field for the
last out of the nineteen fifty seven World Series with
Milwaukee Braves. He was actually the first base runner who
reached against Harvey Haddocks. Remember that near perfect game Harvey
goes twelve perfect innings and Felix reached based on an
era in the thirteenth scores on Joe Edcock's home run
(32:47):
made the last out of a Sandy Kofax no hitter
in nineteen sixty two, and maybe famously of all, he
was drafted by the nineteen sixty two New York Mets
and the expansion draft. Actually had a pretty good year
for the Mets.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
That year.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
He hit two seventy five, which was the second highest
on the team behind Richie Ashburn. But he had the
pleasure of playing for the great Casey Stangle on the
nineteen sixty two Mets at the polo rounds. Joe, I
got to run this this scenario, by the way Casey
would run a game. This is July of sixty two.
The Mets are playing the Cardinals. The Mets are up
four to one. It's the eighth inning. He's got first
(33:24):
and third and nobody out. And I know you're a
big proponent of the zim play, right with that bunt
first and third. Well, Casey's got Roger Craig his picture
it in the box. That's easy to call that, right,
So he bunts it Roger Craig does. Felix Mantilla is
on third base, but Felix missed the sign. He doesn't go,
so the pitcher is Bobby Schantz, fields the ball. He
(33:46):
sees man Tea is not going anywhere now he.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
Turns the throat to first.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
He throws it away and he was a great fielder,
Bobby Shantz, but the throwing error, so now Manteaz scores.
Two batters later, Casey's got to run around second base
as better as Joe Christopher. He puts the bunt sign
on with nobody out to move the guy to the
third so he bunts into the force play.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
It doesn't work out.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Next up is Jim Hickman. Casey puts the bunt on again.
This is like his number three hitter, Jim Hickman.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
He fouls it off, so Casey says, forget it.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
We're gonna go hit and run now. Of course, so
he puts on the hit and run play. But the
bench coach who's signaling the signals to the third base coach,
gives the wrong signal to the third base coach. Puts
the bunt on again. Casey sees the third base coach
give the bunt sign stands up, starts waving his arms,
and he's basically announcing that he wants the hit and run,
(34:38):
not the butnt play. Well, the runners get the idea,
they take off, but Hickman didn't see stangle, so Hickman
still thinks the butt play is on. So Hickman bunts
and it's a great bunt. And because the runners are
moving on the pitch like the unintentional bunt run.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Everybody's safe.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Now the bases are loaded and the next batter, Rodkanal,
hits a grand slam the Mets one, ten to three,
and after the game, Casey said says, the front of
home plate was our greatest asset.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
Beautiful man, I listened. I was around Righty Herzog for
a bit with the Angels, and that's like one of
the best. I don't know how many months or a
year that Whitey was there, but my baseball knowledge increased
dramatically exponentially with what Whitey around. Everything about him I
just really try to absorb. But he talked about Casey,
he thought he was the brightest baseball man he had
(35:35):
been around. And he in spite of all the you
know the fact that he's kind of clown ish or whatever,
his appearance and all this stuff, But no, when it
came right down to baseball knowledge, our case was at
the top. For example, sacrifice bunch situation, you're a pitcher
and the bunch up, the bunt would be probably going
(35:56):
towards third base, he would have and he would encourage
his right handed pitchers to throw a break his pictures
to throw a breaking ball. If you throw a breaking ball,
is you more time to get off the mount, to
get in position to feel the ball because the ball
doesn't get to the plate in such a hurry. Little
things like that, I mean, thought about it, you know what,
That makes some sense to it, But who would break
something like that down. He probably observed that during the
(36:17):
course of one game, and maybe it worked all of
a sudden because back then, maybe the guys even throw
a slower curve ball to the point where the picture
really to get off the mound, because you knew if
they're gonna bunt, they were gonna bunt. And that was it.
Just like you're saying, all these awkward moments because the
manager put the play on, which was not never questioned
at that point. So, yeah, Whitey always told me about
(36:37):
the acumen of Casey Stangle. And again, as you're relaying
this story, man, it's just sad that today's world doesn't
get to witness a Casey Sangle in a dugout or
a Casey Stangle press conference afterwards, or you know, Casey
Stangle trying to explain strategy or whatever to a writer
(36:58):
when he just does not want the writer to know it.
But hell, he's talking about all that stuff. Man, I mean,
I guess that that's one of that's that is dinosauric,
that's not coming back. But my god, to me, that's
that was the allure of baseball back then. You could
you could talk about I'm talking about Whitey Herzog, talk
about Billy Martin, you could talk about Casey Stangle, you
can talk about Dick Williams, Gene everybody. I mean, ah
(37:20):
An Earl. I mean, it's just so when it comes
down to really attracting baseball fans, the characters of the game,
I really think had a big part of the allure.
And it certainly did for me and I probably did
for you also. That's what Casey was. And then and
give him credit. I mean, Wes Western, I'm sitting with
Wes eventually managing the big leagues. Was a catcher for
(37:40):
the New York Giants nearly fifties, caught in the World Series,
the third base coach first base coach for the Giants.
But I'm sitting with Wes at a Arizona State game,
and I'm just a really first year, second year scout
novice and I'm sitting up there and I watching ASU,
which is a very good ball club, And I said,
man's got to be easy, because they got all the
(38:02):
horses force in Arizona State Baseball versus the team that
were playing that day. They got all the horses. It's
kind of unfair. But then and then Wes said to me, yeah,
but you have to have the right jockey. And that
line always stuck with me because it's always about the
jockey does matter, and sometimes it's overlooked.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
Yeah, I mean, listen, we're old enough, we were we
know these guys. We remember the way he heards Ogsibilly Martin's,
the Dallas Green's, Davy Johnson's, and the Casey Stangles even
And it's just sad that those type of personalities really
are not allowed to flourish in the game.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
They simply are not.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
It just cannot happen the way the game is administered today.
And listen, we all get, you know, the evolution of
the game, the way things move forward.
Speaker 4 (38:47):
We all understand that.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
But there's sometimes a cost that if you're young, you
don't realize the way that it could be and the
way that it was.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
And just to flesh out the picture of.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Those who probably a lot of you would not know
anything about. Casey Stengel makes me laugh some of the things,
especially with the sixty two Mets. He had a relief pitcher,
Bob Moore, who get frustrated coming in after I think
it was his third straight outing. He gave up runs,
so he punched the dugout door and of course he
breaks his hand.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
This is in September.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
You know, the Mets are on their way to one
hundred and twenty losses, a record until the White Sox
broke it last year. And they asked, the reporters asked thingle,
you know, what are you going to do? They get
the picture broke his hand in a fit of anger
here and he said, well, if I was in first
or second place, he'd be fined.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
But what's the use? He said this about it.
Speaker 4 (39:37):
He had the Mets had listened.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
They were terrible, right, but they were especially terrible with
the catchers that year. Casey was the one who said, hey,
you need a catcher, otherwise you're going to.
Speaker 4 (39:46):
Have a lot of pass balls.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
He said this about Chris Canazero. He's an amazing fella.
He's the only defensive catcher I've ever seen who can't catch.
Could you imagine a manager saying that today the course
of the season, after the Mets lost the game at
extra innings, he said, hey, we're a much improved ball club.
(40:10):
Now we lose an extra innings, I'm on favorites, Joe.
This is going back to he was managing the Toledo
mud Heads in nineteen twenty nine. Okay, his team is struggling,
guys are making errors all over the place, and he
has a team meeting and he says to his guys, Hey,
I've got a tip on the market on the stock
(40:32):
market for you guys by Pennsylvania Railroad, because tomorrow night
about a dozen of you bums will be riding on it.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
That's so good. Back to CC Chris kenizerra CC and
I were good friends. He was managing the Salinas Angels,
right after I got released, and then he had the
kind of jack I mean, the manager did that. He
permitted me to work out with them every day, and
I would work out with him and I would play
golf with him at Laguna Seca golf course anytime we
could in the morning because the pro at that golf
(41:05):
course brother was a minor league baseball player, so he
played for free. CC took care of me. Man, he
was a tough guy. He ran a tight ship. I'd
never realized Casey had said that about him because c
C was absolutely into the mechanics of catching. He's gone now, CEC,
he's gone, but he stayed in touch with me. I
stayed in touch with him. I have nothing but a
(41:27):
warm fuzzy about Chris Kenizarl because as a recently released
minor league baseball player. But I mean when I say
no money, I mean no money. That's not an exaggeration.
He took care of me, He helped me out, he
gave me some dignity, and we had a really good
time on the golf course. So whatever case he said,
it doesn't really matter. I'm just saying CC really treated
(41:48):
me well and I do miss him.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Yeah, one more for Casey, I actually give you two
more because you can relate to this. When you made
me think of this, Joe, and you said you had
no money, literally no money, literally none, Casey had a
line you have to go broke through three times to
learn how to make a living.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
That's pretty wise, you know what.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
It was way more than three times, absolutely right, and
it's true. I mean, I coming up, I'm not going
to go with the SOB stories. But when you're a
minor league player, you get for sure, you get five
hundred a month with quad cities, you get five hundred
two fifty every two weeks, and you got to live
off this. You get six dollars a day meal money,
and you only get paid during the season. So the
off season was very important. That would be like driving
(42:31):
a limousine. For me, as an example, working at third base, lunchonette,
delivering hogies, making hogies, and mopping the floor twice a day.
It was great stuff. I would not trade those moments
for any of me. Talk about the struggle in the
book and Joe, the struggle is so so important and
those that overlook that you're missing something, man, I mean,
obviously things a little bit better now in regards to stability, however, Yeah,
(42:56):
I would trade all of that to go back in
time like that and have to go through all that
stuff all over you And I would in a heartbeat.
I would that's where you're develop being all that intuition
eventually that you're going to have the work ethic that
you can eventually possess and to have a desire of thought,
a want, a goal and then eventually reach it. And
(43:16):
what it takes to get there. The passion involved in
the day is incredible. The tireless work ethic involved to
get to that point is wonderful. And those are the
things that I wish upon everybody, every youth, that as
they grow up, that they have an absolute goal in
mind and then they have to struggle to get there,
and then it doesn't always work out, and you do
(43:37):
go broke three times and you have to be you
utilize your ingenuity to work your way through it and
never lose faith. These are the things that really matter.
And I'm so grateful that I never got anything before
it was my time to have it.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Yeah, I just I love that, And you hit on this, Joe,
it's really passion. If you've got it, that's what's going
to pull you through, So you have to go broke
three times to learn how to make a living.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I love that's lot more for you.
Speaker 1 (44:03):
From great Casey Stangle. The secret of managing is to
keep the guys who hate you away from the guys
who are undecided.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah, I just.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
Think you know, whether you agree with that or not,
it's it's just so cool to me that we can
sit here and talk about Casey Stangle, someone who was
born in the nineteenth century and his words are timeless.
He was such a character and a personality that what
he stands for, what he did, still resonates all these
years later, and Casey's been gone a long time. I mean,
(44:35):
that's having an impact on the game of baseball, if
not life.
Speaker 3 (44:39):
That just validates Whitey's Herzog's assessment of Casey. That's brilliant.
Those kind of things, those little intuitive moments, those the
ability to cull things down to the point where they
there's right front of your face, but when you're able
to verbalize it in that way, that to me is
that is genius. And he was known about the Professor,
right was he known as.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
The professor Professor? Yes, he was.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
I mean that's so. And his word salads, Oh my god,
they were the best ever. But that again, that just
Thinkain validates with what he had said about him, and
I just you just wish that the game was more
permitted to run in that direction more than it is
where it's just so buttoned down and it just lacks
(45:21):
that kind of appeal. And again we talk about progress.
I'm here to say, man, I don't always agree with
the word progress, the definition. It just means that you're
doing things definitely not necessarily in a better way.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Well, Joe, you always take us home with some words
of wisdom. And I put the pressure on you here
by giving you some Casey stangle, the best of Casey stangle.
So I don't know if you can top it, but
I always do count on you to bring us home.
So what do you got today?
Speaker 3 (45:49):
Yeah? I just got this from my buddy Michael Stewart.
We went to an event at McDill Air Force Based
the other day with General Fent and Brian fentn what
a good guy who went there for like this New
Year's kind of a party. And Michael threw this at
me afterwards. He just found it. I think it's great
and it comes from our boy Mick Jagger, who's one
of my idols too. People are so brainwashed by the
(46:12):
rules that they don't know what really matters. Okay, and
you're just talking about Whitey and Kate. We're talking about
Whitey and Casey and all this different stuff that it's
just it's just the natural flow of a human being
and his ability to express himself and not worried about
the job security whatever, and just and really just expose himself.
(46:33):
Just expose yourself and really, this is who I am,
this is what I think, is what I believe in.
And that's to me, that's always the most interesting. And
there's no narrative, there's there's there's no talking points here.
It's just it's an unfiltered mind working at its at
its highest level. And I love that. I love the
unfiltered mind. I love those that don't necessarily work with
(46:54):
the governor. I need those thoughts. I need to know
what you're thinking. You need to challenge me and I
that's that's it. Uh. And I think that's what these
guys did. Uh. We're worried about hurting your feelings, and
you know, feelings were you know, we always had feelings,
but they were a little bit more protected. Back then
was a little bit there were more. There was more
protections surrounding our feelings than there is today. We're so
(47:15):
we're so exposed and easily offended. I love that. I
love the method. I love the toughness of that. That
that era, so people are so brainwashed by the rules
that they don't know what really matters. Mister Mick Jagger,
I love that.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, it's a it's a pretty good line up today.
Each hero, Casey Stangle, Mick Jagger, sign you up.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Not bad, not bad, brother, beautiful.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Man, well done, well done.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
We'll see you next time on the Book of Joe.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
All right, Tommy, Thanks buddy.
Speaker 1 (47:51):
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