The Book of Joe: New Hall of Famers, PEDs, and Dodgers riches

In this episode of 'The Book of Joe' Podcast, Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss the three new Hall of Famers.   Ichiro wasn't unanimous, but does it matter who didn't vote for him?  Tom questions the future of PED users in the HOF and if a hard stance ever changes.  We look at the candidates for next season and how voting could play out.  Also, the Dodgers add two pitchers and have an embarrassment of riches in the clubhouse!  Is it 'good' for baseball?  Joe explains how teams have to approach beating the Dodgers' super team.  

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey thereon Welcome Back, You found The Book of Joe
a podcast. This is Tom Ferducci and Joe Madden. Joe,
There's a lot going on in the world of baseball,

(00:25):
So I am going to give you a choice of.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Where we start. Today.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
We have Hall of Fame voting and we have the
Los Angeles Dodgers putting together a Hall of Fame team
team loadly with future Hall of Famers.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Where would you like to begin?

Speaker 3 (00:40):
The flavor of the day would be the Hall of
Fame voting and the Hall of Famers. I think that
goes number one.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
It was a really good class three got over the
threshold of seventy five percent, starting with Ichiro Suzuki, who
had all.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
But one vote from the writers on the ballot.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
CC Sabbathia first ballot Hall of Famer and Billy Wagner
last ballot Hall of Famer. Let's get this out of
the way first, Joe, about Eachiro Suzuki. One writer did
not vote for him, and everybody wants to get their
pitchforks and torches out and try to find out who
it was. It doesn't matter, folks, I think, to me,

(01:17):
there's way too much attention paid to it. You know,
this is not an sat test. Is each year old
Hall of Famer? Of course he is. Did I vote
for him? Of course I did. But when you have
almost four hundred people voting, whether they're writers or you know,
people on the street, you're going to have a difference
of opinion. And you know, instead of looking at it

(01:37):
like he had one.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Of the highest vote totals in the history of Hall of.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Fame voting, everybody wants to know, take this guy's credential away.
Don't let them vote again. No, it's not that important.
Once you're over seventy five percent, it really doesn't matter.
Does it mean that Mariano Rivera, the only player to
get voted in unanimously, is the greatest player of all time? No,
it's just a quirk in the voting system. I just

(02:00):
wanted to get that out of the way. But I'd
like to know why someone left them off the back. Well, sure,
why not? But I don't want a pillary whoever didn't
vote for him. It doesn't really matter. What's your take
on that and all the attention paid to it.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Joe yeah, when you win the World Series, if you
win by one run, or if you win three games
to one or four to three or sweep him, it
doesn't matter. You want it right, he won. It's just
a curiosity factor. And like you're saying, more than who
it was, why he didn't vote for him? Like you said,
why did he not vote for I'm just curious. I'd
be a curiosity thing. I wouldn't be upset with him
as a scout and not.

Speaker 4 (02:33):
A scouting director.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
But having worked for them, you know, it's everybody's different
how they view things. Everybody's you have the tough graders
and you have the easy graders. Now easily you could
argue that regardless if you're a tougher and easy grader,
you got to vote for eachro Suzuki, So I don't
even know there's.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
A bias in there. Whatever.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
But again, like you're saying, it doesn't really matter, it's
just a curiosity thing. But he's got in. It doesn't
seventy five percent the number at that point. He's a
Hall of Famer and so one hundred percent. It's always
kind of cool to say that, but at the end
of the day, man, he's in and very happy for
this class. We talked about I think we hit on
all three of these guys, and we talked about it previously,

(03:09):
so all worthy. It's you know, you look at the
names that didn't make it, and I'm sure you're going
to get into that a bit also, and I'm trying
to visualize in my head, and there's a lot of
good names in there, even like an Alex Rodriguez, who
physically as as a baseball player, was worthy of it. However,
all the different things that occurred has prevented this.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
But the guys that.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
Got to the Hall of Famer are like kind of
Hall of famers. Either the rest of the names, it
just loows short, little short, little short, and eventually maybe
but you' like at Billy Wagner, it's amazing that he's
had to wait this long if you look at his
body of work.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
So I think the.

Speaker 3 (03:43):
Guy's got it right actually, and seventy five percent the number.
It's just a curiosity thing whether or not or why
this fella did not vote for him.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and here's what I like about it too, Joe.
I mean, it's we love the game of baseball. One
of the things you love most about it is it's
pure democracy that anybody can play this game right, and
greatness comes in all different shapes and size and paths
to Cooperstown. The same way. Think about each Rosuzuki. When
he first signed with the ORGX Blue Wave, he was
five foot nine and one hundred and twenty pounds one

(04:13):
hundred and twenty pounds, and his manager at that time
didn't think he would ever hit because he was so small,
and he had this really unorthodox approach at the plate.
He winds up getting if he counted his time in Japan,
more than four thousand hits. You've got CC Sabathia, who
played it at his biggest six foot six and three

(04:34):
hundred pounds. There's never been a Hall of Famer with
a playing weight listed at more than two hundred and
fifty pounds.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
That was Jim Tomey.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
There'd never been a pitcher at more than two hundred
and twenty five pounds make the Hall of Fame, and
that's Roy Halliday and Brandy Johnson. So you have Sabbathia
at three hundred pounds, and he had this beautiful delivery,
very athletic, repeatable delivery, one of the best arm swings
I've ever seen. His athleticism really stands out at a

(05:06):
size we just didn't see anybody get the Cooperstown with.

Speaker 2 (05:10):
And then you've got Billy Wagner.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Billy Wagner was born right handed, broke his arm in
a backyard football game as a kid. I think he
was seven years old. He said it was chip from
across the street.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
Nice going chip.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Because that right handed Billy Wagner became a Hall of
Fame pitcher with a left hand. It's just amazing. And
Billy Wagner was five foot ten. In the last ninety
one years, there's been only two pitchers who made it
to the major leagues who are in the Hall of Fame.
One is Whitey Ford and one is Billy Wagner. So

(05:43):
when you see a picture of this Hall of Fame,
at least the Writer's Ballot class of twenty twenty five,
you've got each hero, You've got CC, and you've got
Billy the Kid, all different body types.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, I mean you're bringing all that up. I remember
I'm seeing this about thea pitch in Cleveland. That's when
I first saw him. And yeah, big man, really big man.
The literally the uniform was draped over him was it
even like tucked. And in spite of the size, he
did have this luidity about him movement cover first base.

(06:16):
We delivered the baseball, and of course I don't mean
this is setiallys but facetiously, but a big backside. He
turned that backside over and there was a lot of
power involved in that really good breaking ball night another
cleveland Er, Bartolo Colonna's the first time I saw bart
bart not as big as him in a sense, but
I would bet close to the same weight almost at times.

(06:38):
But just regardless of how big they were physically girth wise,
they moved. The movement was good. I mean, as a scout,
you're always looking for body movement. Does he does it
easily as a full effort kind of a guy that
really has to bump and grind to get it there.

Speaker 4 (06:54):
He wasn't. He wasn't.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Bartolo wasn't. They had the smoothness about him. So sometimes
the actual physical body belies how athletic.

Speaker 4 (07:02):
Somebody may be.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
And he is, and I guess he hit the ball
pretty well as a hitter also, and given that opportunity
sabout the I little pop in the bat.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
But nevertheless, I'm happy for him.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
I don't really know him, even if I've ever said
a low to him, but definitely seen him on the
other side of the field. And I'm very happy for
him because they absolutely believe he deserves to be there.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Yeah, great competitor, great teammate, you know, one of he's
one of the rare pitchers, Joe, that can bridge the
gap between the position players and the pitchers. If you're
around a major league clubhouse, you would notice that it's
almost like offense and defense and football.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
They kind of hang out together. They're on different schedules.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
You don't see a lot of mixing among pitchers and
everyday players. But Cec was one of those pitchers who
could actually do that. That's a rarity of the game
and it was really cool to me.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Joe.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
We talk a lot about coaching and the recognition that
coaches get, and I asked Cec because he was a
multi sport athlete.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
You know, he got to the big leagues at age twenty.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
He had played positions in the field, as you know,
going up through high school, and he really didn't become
a pitcher. I'm talking about an accomplished pitcher of a
refined pitcher until he got to the Major leagues, and
he gave all the credit to Carl Willis, the pitching
coach for Cleveland at the time. He said, the pitches
that I threw, the choices that I make, my wind up,

(08:25):
my delivery, everything I owe to Carl Willis. I thought
that was so touching. You're talking about a major league
pitching coach as well. That the pitcher that c C.
Sabbathia became really good athlete, the pitcher he became, the
Hall of Fame pitcher he became was due to having
the influence of a pitching coach like Carl Willis when
he first got to the big leagues.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, the truth, Carl, the truth Willis. We've talked about
him before. He and I worked together in Edmonton. He
was a player and I was a rooming instructor and
always had a great relationship.

Speaker 4 (08:54):
This guy.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
You're just drawn to Carl because he said so real,
just so real, just a good fella. And at that time, Abby,
he wasn't a coach, he was a pitcher. And then
he actually becomes a coach and I'm watching from a
distance and I'm just, you know, thought, and you're kind
of demonstrating here. The recap is that he's just an
easy guy to communicate with. I can't tell you I

(09:16):
can't speak to his depth of knowledge as a pitching
coach because I wasn't around him for that, But as
a person and relatable and easy to converse with. Absolutely,
and I actually became pretty good friends player coach at
that particular time. I love the idea, and trust me
and believe me. It's really important when a player like

(09:37):
a Sabbathi eventually achieving the Hall of Fame speaks of
the coach or the scout in his history and his background,
the guys that really were influential in getting him to
that particular point.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
It matters.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
It matters to that coach, It matters to that scout,
It matters to that person that really doesn't get only
any credit for this. It's not like you go out
there seeking the credit. But when you're recognizing that way,
it really validates all that that amount of time as
a scout or as a coach that you put into
the day. People have no idea how much time that
actually is and how much you really live and die

(10:11):
by the success or failures of these guys that you've
signed or worked with.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's it's kind of emotional.

Speaker 3 (10:17):
It's very emotional, actually, and I felt it as a scout,
I felt it as a coach, and exactly you know,
the feeling involved.

Speaker 4 (10:23):
So I'm really that's really cool.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
And you're talking about if Sabathia has had that kind
of reputation among his peers within the clubhouse, it's not
a surprise that he would recognize those that.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
Really helped him.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
And I'm very happy for him, like I said, and
I'm really happy for Carl too.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, so am I, Joe, because when Ceci said that,
I mean, he's this newly minted Hall of Famer and
he's given so much credit to his first pitching coach
in the big leagues. And I just imagine, you know,
if Carl was watching or certainly he heard about it,
just the satisfaction. And listen, as you know, Joe, it's
not the reason why the coaches do this. They do
it because they love what they do and they're not
looking for credit. But when credit comes, and especially for

(11:02):
someone who became a Hall of Fame pitcher, that has
to be so rewarding because these guys don't get acknowledged
nearly as much as they should. I thought that was
very cool. On Sabbathias's part and good on Carl Willis,
and when it gets it comes to each Hero. Really,
his dad was.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
His biggest influence. You know.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
His dad started working with him and I mean intense
drilling as a youngster, and he had one of these
kids who, let's face it, liked it.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
You know.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
We try to I call it the Tiger Woods Dad
syndrome where we heard the stories about Tiger getting drilled
by his dad and his dad jingling the car keys
in the back of his swing to you know, get
him to learn how to concentrate through all kinds of distractions.
That's great when you have someone who's motivated to want
to be great and loves and.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Has this incredible passion to work that hard.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
You can't do that with every kid, so it's not
something that should be modeled necessarily, but each Hero's dad
worked them hard. He also saw that his kid was
not going to be really big. So each Hero is
a natural right hander. Obviously you've seen him throw in
the outfield right handed, but his dad had him hit
from the left side of the plate because the left
handed batter's box is a step or two closer to

(12:08):
first base, and he thought his smaller son could take
advantage of that shorter path the first base, and boy
did he with that gliding style that running start. So
good on each Row and his dad for turning him
into the hitter that he became. And you have to remember,
you know this Joe, when he came to the major
leagues in two thousand and one, people weren't sure if

(12:29):
each hero was going to hit. You know, we didn't
have nearly the kind of information of foreign players coming
over here at that time, and.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
The game was in love with power.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
I mean, the numbers and the players themselves were getting
cartoonishly big. We're talking about two thousand and one. The
greatest three years successful years of slugging in baseball history
is ninety nine, two thousand and two thousand and one.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
And we all know why.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
It was the peder And here comes this one hundred
and seventy five pounds, five foot ten corner.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Outfielder who's just slapping the ball.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
And you know what, give credit to each tier Row
because he decided he was to be true to his
style of play. He wasn't going to bend to the
American style and try to hit home runs.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
I really always admired that about him, Joe.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
I'm sure there was probably some subtle, if not implied,
pressure to develop into more of a power guy. I mean,
if you look at corner ole fielders in the Hall
of Fame, Eiros has the lowest adjusted ops. I mean,
it's the guy who did not hit for extra bases,
he did not walk. He was amazing at getting his sits,
his singles. So I've always admired that Joe, that e

(13:34):
Heiro is true to himself and his style, despite let's
face that the American influences were going in the other direction.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
It just sounds like the influence of his dad stuck
pretty strongly. The fact that he knew who he was
through the drilling that his pop had done.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
He wasn't going to change just because of all of that.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
He probably realized at a young age, even when he
first came over and as he started catching on that
y I can do this, I could show them a
different path here, and by staying within my abilities, I'm
going to be different. I think that's you know, I
think he's the kind of guy that embraces being a
little bit different and not part of the pack. Describing

(14:13):
as pop, I just start thinking.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
About my coaches that I've had in the past. Tough
is good. I mean it was a way, you know.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
I don't know how much it's actually utilized in today's
world in regards to coaching, where I.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
Think there's a lot of pandering done. Tough can be good.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
I mean, I meaning that I always love to be
shot straight by these different coaches. I didn't need to
always get these warm fuzzies need to be I need
to be told when I was wrong or I was
getting off track a little bit. And the work itself
had to be difficult. You can the workouts had to
be difficult. Everything had to be there had to be

(14:47):
a certain level of difficulty, and you could identify with
that too. That's just how we were raised and trained,
and we were able to, I think, accept criticism a
lot more readily and easily. Wad to take it to
the point where it would be devastating, it would.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
Be more motivating. So I kind of like that.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Yet, he understanding your student is also really important with
how much how much can this student take it? I
don't know to what level his dad really thought about
that stuff, if Prob was his son, but how much
can I give this guy. How tough can I be
on this guy? How you know they weren't Fuzzy's hell
oft enough to have to throw them out there. There's
all these different you know, putting the gas down and
applying the break kind of a method to coaching, and

(15:28):
then the overall communication. And I'd love to know more
about all this. I didn't realize his dad was that influential.
And you're talking about a guy that you describe them physically.
That's how big I was when I played mission football
when I was twelve. It's incredible that he grew into
this kind of player. So, yeah, there's a lot to
unpack with all that. Tough is good. I wrote that down.

(15:50):
I'm okay with tough. I like tough. I like to
be coach tough, and you have to understand the student
and they'd be communication. It could be really difficulty with
father's son. I mean, there's no latitude given there sometimes
whether it's a Woods or mister Suzuki. It's kind of
interesting that both guys started up pretty well athletically.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, and then you got Billy Wagner.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Let's not forget you know, he went to a Division
III school, Fareham College.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
You know they found him.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
You throw like Billy Wagner, upper nineties, one hundred miles
an hour at the time, they'll find you. He was
a first round pick twelfth overall, and he did pitch
for many different teams. But I think, Joe, that's because
he was always in demand. And I want to get
your take on this from a manager's perspective, because I
know people had this knock on Billy Wagner that he
didn't throw enough innings is barely over nine hundred innings,

(16:36):
but the game had changed in the course of his career,
where you know, as a manager, they were essentially saving
these great arms for the ninth inning. And I think
it was more a matter of how he was used
than the fact was, you know, Billy Wagner couldn't pitch more.
I mean, this guy, maybe maybe his best year was
his last year in the major leagues. I mean, he

(16:58):
went home because he wanted to be home with his
wife and kids. How do you take that away from
a guy or take it against the guy. It wasn't
because he was running out of anything in the tank.
He had an outstanding All Star season in his last
year in.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
The big league.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
So I always thought it was bogus, this idea that
he didn't throw enough innings because Billy Wagner.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
Every time he pitched.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Essentially, managers were using him with the game on the line,
the most important parts of a game. He was not
hanging on. He was not pitching middle innings. He was
not a failed starter, although he did start in the
minor leagues. He was a guy throughout his career it
was always pitching in the highest leverage spots. So the
hitters are telling me that he's the most difficult pitcher

(17:38):
to hit in the history of the game. I mean,
look at batting average, and the managers are telling me
they want to keep using this guy with the game
on the line.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
That means a lot to me.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, maybe it's wise to walk away too early than
to walk away too late. Maybe I'm sure that wasn't
his philosophy, but that's exactly what he did. And what
you're describing is, like you said, you mentioned it early
on there the methods employed first coming up like that
in the minor leagues, even in the eighties into the nineties,
and as a manager and coach even Angels and then

(18:11):
manager of the Rays, it was a different method You
were trying to set this guy for the ninth You
were not going to utilize him earlier than that. The
high leverage moment was pretty much reserved for the ninth inning.
You're right, probably the three most difficult ots.

Speaker 4 (18:25):
To get in the game.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
I'll argue that with anybody's you know, you could talk
about the save itself and the three run lead and
what that all means, and that's even changed now with
the three batter minimum.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
All that stuff is different.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
So it's hard to evaluate him identically because, like you're saying,
the usage was not determined by him. Although you go
up to a player, you go to a picture, and
you say, how do you feel today?

Speaker 4 (18:47):
Are you good to go? And again to today's.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
World, almost it's almost conterintuitive, but they're even more careful
now than they had been regarding number of appearances in
a row and actually listening to a pitcher and athletes
saying I'm good to go or not good to go,
compare to now where they're just going off of metrics
and and little tables that they create for the month itself.
So he was that good and you're talking about one

(19:12):
of the more difficult guys in history to hit I'm
okay with him walking away a little bit too early
as opposed a little bit too late, and he had
no control over how often he was used. I can't
imagine him like he was saying, I'm sorry, I can't
pitch to that.

Speaker 4 (19:23):
I don't even know that.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
But for the most part, that was a different method
employed by managers back then.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Yeah, and finally, Joe, that's one reason why cecs Maathia
is such a legend, the way he pitched an eight
down the stretch from Milwaukee right.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
First of all, give credit to Doug Melvyn.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
He was the general manager of Milwaukee at the time,
and CC wasn't his last year entering free agency for Cleveland,
and instead of waiting for the trade deadline, Doug Melvin
went to Cleveland before the All Star break and said,
we want to make this deal now.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
He jumped the market he wanted to make.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
He wanted to have Sabbathia make as many starts as
possible for a team that was gunning for the postseason.
Pointed that workout well, but you also had CC down
the stretch taking the ball with three days of multiple times,
and I know his agent wasn't happy about it. They
were a little concerned because he was entering free agency,
but Ceci kept saying, give me the ball. He was
pitching the best base ball of his career, and he

(20:16):
could not wait to take the ball. He said, this
was the only time in his career during this stretch
where he felt like every time he took the ball
he was going to win. Why not ride this guy
who's built like a house. He's got tremendous confidence in
the prime of his career. And he looked at his
numbers down the stretch, they were just off the charts.
His last three starts all on three days rest. His

(20:39):
last art actually was one hundred and twenty two pitches
in a two run game. He was his own closer
in that game. You look at that now, Joe, and
it wasn't that long ago, and you think it was
ancient history, because no starting pitcher would be allowed to
do anything like that. Pitching multiple times on three days
of rest down the stretch in the last month of
the season and closing his own two run game with

(21:01):
one hundred.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And twenty two pitches.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
The legend of ccis about the tremendous respect for him,
and today it looks like it's from another age.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
I remember watching that.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
I remember watching specifically because that's the year we went
to the World Series with the Rays and played the
Phillies two thousand and eight, and it was just you said,
it was his free agent year, right, he was going
to be a free agent.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
It's a conclusion, you know.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
That was the part that really I was impressed with
the fact that he was not worried about that, in
other words, getting hurt, primarily because that seems to be
the issue. He was not concerned about that. He wanted
to win, and the fact that the Brewers gave him
that opportunity just again, it's just it's just as it
should be all the time, and it always it's always

(21:42):
frustrating the way the new methods has been employed.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
But yeah, I remember that, I remember him.

Speaker 3 (21:48):
I was like, Wow, this guy is saying, you know what,
I'm going to be a free agent, but screw that,
I'm just gonna I want to pitch it.

Speaker 4 (21:55):
I want to win.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
And that for the next team that was going to
get him, I knew that there had to be concerns about, oh,
did they overuse him? Is he going to break down
all the different thoughts that are employed with that in
that particular moment. But you also have to think, Yeah,
this guy, this guy got after it the most ferocious
time of the year and he came through. So there's
so much to be said about him. And like I said,

(22:16):
I don't know him. I wish I did, because everything
I've heard about this fellow just reeks up.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
He's the kind of teammate you want.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well said, Hey, we got through this whole segment, Joe,
we haven't even mentioned peds. You brought up Alex Rodriguez's name.
We have to talk about the voting how it applies
to the guys who have been tainted by peds. We'll
do that right after this quick break on the Book
of Joe. Welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast

(22:54):
with me, Tom Verducci and Joe Madden, and of course
every year Hall of Fame around this time we talk
about the effect of peds on voting, but.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Less and less.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Thankfully, first of all, there's less of them on the
actual ballot. But I think, Joe, it's because we pretty
much know if you fail a PED test or there's
enough public evidence of usage of peds, you're.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Not getting in the Hall of Fame. It is that simple.
It's not a rule.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Things may change over the time, but as we stand
here today, you simply cannot use peds and expect to
get into the Hall of Fame. We had another reason
to see that again with Many Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez.
Manny Ramirez is on a just had his ninth try
on the ballot, and I'll give you his percentages real quick,

(23:43):
and I'll round them up. Twenty four percent, two, twenty three,
twenty eight, twenty eight, twenty nine.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
Thirty three, thirty three and this year thirty four.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Now I'll give you Alex Rodriguez, who's got four years
on the ballot, thirty four, thirty six, thirty five, and
this year at thirty seven. I mean, it's pretty established, Joe.
There's no momentum here. There's always going to be a
segment of voters who say, you know what, I don't
care that you use peds. You cheated the game, you
played on an uneven playing field. You use the federally

(24:13):
controlled substance to your own benefit while harming others.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Fine, it's going to happen.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
That is a small subset, certainly, nothing close to seventy
five percent.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I'm certainly okay with it.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
You know, I understand the argument that, hey, we really
don't know on this case. We do know, we've talked
about failed tests, it's undisputed, and some people just want
to look the other way, and you know, say, you know,
I'm not going to be the judge of what's right
and what's wrong. That's fine, but there's not nearly enough
of those voters to get these guys in the Hall
of Fame.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
I'm perfectly fine with it.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
And I think if you had a poll of any
group of three hundred or three hundred and fifty people,
whether they're writers, broadcasters, players, managers, people on the street,
they're not going to get seventy five percent. And that
seems to be obvious by now.

Speaker 3 (25:02):
It sounds like the same guys are voting for the
guys within the realm on a consistent basis.

Speaker 4 (25:08):
The pd users.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
There's a set method of sensibilities among the voters where
they're going to look past that because they have a
different criterion set within themselves regarding who's worthy or not
to get to the Hall of Fame. The PDS man.
We've talked about this obviously in the past too. I mean,
I just saw guys get big, and I was so
naive to the fact because waights weightlifting became popular in

(25:30):
the late seventies, early eighties, mid eighties, that's when waights
really became popular within clubhouses. Part of that there's always
a concern you're going to get too muscle bound to
stay away from those, even to the point I was
concerned about, you know, doing it for football, which I
wish retrospectively I had.

Speaker 4 (25:44):
I wish somebody had made me do it.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
But nevertheless, you saw, you saw guys get really really big,
uniforms got really really tight, and I'm just thinking, God,
these guys really work out hard in the off season.
I got to give them a lot of credit. So
that was my first take, being so naive to all
this stuff. And I had different guys mentioned, yeah, they're
on steroids or on pds just casually and what do

(26:06):
you talk, how would you know? Well, obviously it was true,
and I was just that native to the point. Part
of the PD era also that to me was pertinent
to the Tampa Bay Rays is or Devil Rays, that
it had to be sanctioned, come under control somehow, where
the testing became more prominent because I thought the only
way that the race could become dominant in a sense

(26:29):
was the fact that this became under control, that testing
would be out there and it would be working, because
the Rays are not going to be able to afford
players that were taking that stuff because their numbers were
so high and the cost was so prohibitive to the
Rays at that point. So part of I thought the
rai's ascension was the fact was kind of tied to
the fact that testing became more prominent and doable, and

(26:49):
the fact that it became it started began to eradicate
it from the game. So there was a correlation I
think between like lesser teams teams that don't have the
same kind of a payroll to ascending where the PDS
we started to becoming taken out out of the game itself,
because had that remain that way, there have been so
few teams that could afford those kind of numbers on
an annual basis. And maybe you could make that argument

(27:12):
The Dodgers were going to get into that in a bit,
But I do believe the Rays became pertinent as steroids
became less pertinent in the game.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
It's a really interesting take.

Speaker 1 (27:21):
Joe and I'm glad you brought it up, because there
were consequences to the fairness of the game, whether it
was individually or you pointed out, and I'm glad you did.
As a franchise, you were disadvantaged, There's no question about
that because power costs money, and as the power numbers
went up, it seems like the Rays weren't able to

(27:42):
afford those type of players. It's a great point. There's
so many dominoes that fell. It wasn't anything that was
done in a vacuum. So when people want to excuse
ped use, what they're doing is, first of all, you're
overlooking the most basic tenet of athleticism, which is fair play.
You have to compete fairly and me against you, my
best against your best.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
That's it.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Not my druggist or my chemist against your chemist. We
don't want that. And then there are consequences to it,
and you eloquently described there.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
So it's important to remember for me, at least for
me as a voter.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
And then I look at someone like Andy Pettitt, Joe,
he actually got a little bit of a boost because
you look at his numbers, they're very similar to CC
Sabathia I mean they're almost identical. And Pettit got the
biggest jump of any returning candidate on the ballot. He
went up fourteen percent. Now, the bad news for him
is he's still under thirty percent. He's only at twenty
eight percent. He's got a long, long way to go

(28:40):
and really not.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Many chances to get there.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
So Andy Pettitt now has had his seventh year, He's
got three more years on the ballot, So I don't
think he's getting in. But it was interesting to me
that all of a sudden with Sabathia on the ballot.
And this is generally the way it works. You're a
product not just of your career, but the company that's
on the ballot with you has a lot to do
with it.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
Andy Pettitt got a boost.

Speaker 1 (29:01):
Don't think he's going to get boosted all the way
to Cooper's town, but that was one ped user that
did see an increase.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, I think part of that would be the good
guy kind of a label that's attached. And I mean
he just seems like, again there's another guy where they
don't know but from a distance, very likable guy. When
he speaks, he speaks in a manner that he's kind
of draws you in a little bit, and he's easily
he's easily likable, like you're suggesting right now, I didn't

(29:30):
realize the numbers were that close between the two.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
I'll tell you one thing though, big game.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
This guy was tough man, and that move the first
base with the umpire's not really understanding what a back
looked like was devastating. I had all these little micro
things going on that made him really good. The stare
over the glove. I mean, there was a consistency about
this fella. And I think if you were a Yankee
and pettit was pitching, you felt pretty good about that night.
So I didn't again, not knowing you do the research

(29:57):
with the numbers way better than I do. I didn't
realize there was such a similarity between him. It's about
I would not have guessed that, not have known that.
So with taking that into consideration, the really the biggest
thing against his ability to get to the to the
hall would be the usage of the peds.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Correct, that's it. That's the only reason keeping them out.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
Yeah, that's too bad.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
I mean, this is a great he's a great guy,
and I think that's like like I said, I think
that's why you saw a little bit of a boosting
the numbers this year, just based on him and his personality,
how much he's liked.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Looking forward next year on the ballot, there's nobody who's
getting on the ballot for the first time who's going
to get into the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
The top candidates are Ryan Brawn.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
We just talked about the ped effects he's not getting in,
and Cole Hamil's who's had some huge moments obviously, and
Joe you were first hand witness to it, but probably
is a little bit short. He'll stay on the ballot
like Felix Hernandez did. At one point you talked about
Cole Hamills Felix Hernandez among the best pitchers in the game.

(30:59):
But the point being that there's there's no Echiro Suzuki
or c. C. Sabathia first Hall of Famer on next
year's ballot. So writers generally the way it works now
is they look for people to vote for, and you're
going to see Carlos Beltron and Andrew Jones, the ones
who just came below the cut off this year, pick
up more votes. I got to keep your eye on

(31:21):
as Chase Utley. Chase Utley saw a boost this year,
eleven percent boost this year. Jimmy Rollins, by the way,
did not see nearly the boost that his teammate did,
which is interesting to me. I kind of look at
them both in lockstep borderline Hall of Famers. But Utley
was at forty percent now and Jimmy Rollins only at
eighteen percent. Hard for me to decipher between the two

(31:43):
of those.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
That gap should be that big Joe.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
But first of all, give me your take, Chase Utley
Jimmy Rollins. I know you don't have the numbers in
front of you, but just as an observer of the game,
which one do you think is more closer to Cooperstown.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
I think, like you're saying, the parallels are really similar.
I can't if they both should between thirty and forty
percent of the vote. I mean, the disparity doesn't make
any sense to me. Jimmy Rawlins dynamic player, really a
dynamic player, MVP, all that kind of good stuff, And
he was a he was a difference maker in the game,
and plus he played that such a vital position, and

(32:17):
if you want to break down position wise, a better
defender overall then and then Utley utly went through some
moments where he had he had little difficulty with throwing,
et cetera. So breaking the game is game down. In
his entirety, Rawlins to me had the edge over Utlely.
Both were like intense players. I mean Utly, he really
appeals to the machismo factor regarding voting as much as

(32:41):
anybody in the recent past. You talk about old school,
you talk about, you know, the competitive just the competitive
face of this man is like different. And so from
that perspective, I don't know how much in depth, like
you're saying number of numerically guys got into or not,
But on the surface, at least the kind of guy
like you know, this, this tough looking dude that you

(33:02):
want to this square jot that's not afraid to fight,
and I think there's an appeal from that perspective. But
overall game, you'd have to argue that maybe Rollins played
a better overall game when he came right down to it,
I don't know that the numbers back that up or
not a little bit more in your face with Utley

(33:22):
and kind of a man's man that you wanted on
your team and the other guys could gain some strength
and courage from looking at this fello, where the other
guy I just think was a more complete player. And
that's that's from my perspective. But neither one should be
considered way better than the other. These guys are in lockstep,
and I would be I'm surprised that the differential and
voting is so grand.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, I would guess that Carlos Beltron does get voted
in next year. He's at seventy percent. I vote for him.
I did not vote for him the first year. As
sort of like as my own statement about his involvement
in the Houston Astros signs stealing scandal, which he was
a major.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Part of it, major part of it. They called him
a godfather.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
He arrived from the New York Yankees, and he's one
who told the Astros players, you guys are behind the times.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
You got to get with it. In terms of stealing
signs off video.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
He had a manager in aj Hinch who busted up
the monitor twice and still continue to do it. He
had a teammate and Brian McCann who told him to
stop it, still continues to do it. It bothers me
that he's never taken full ownership of it. But you know,
what are you gonna do? Keep him out forever? It's
different than peds.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
It just is.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
It's not a federally controlled substance. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
And then you have Andrew Jones, who is going to
be very close. I have not voted for Andrew Jones.
His career went completely downhill in his thirties. He just
did not take care of himself. He wound up with
a lower adjusted ops than Jim Edmonds and Dale Murphy,
who I think we're better candidates. But he is up
to sixty six percent, so we'll see if he gets

(34:53):
over the line for next year. And finally, Joe, we're
going to bring up former Angel for you. Francisco Rodriguez
stays in the ballot with ten percent of the vote.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Maybe there's a comp there to Billy Wagner.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
I just didn't see him as being as dominant as
Billy Wagner. But give me your take on k rod
and his Hall of Fame candidacy, because he does have
some really good numbers.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
This guy was a difference maker for the two thousand
and two Angels winning the World Series. There is no
that's non arguable he was that influential and what we
did and what happened the thing that with him, he
went from this dominant hardball pitcher with the nasty slider,
and then he started to get more into the change up,
almost like Devin Williams kind of a pitch. The fellow

(35:38):
just got traded to the Yankees from the Brewers. He
kind of evolved into that pitcher. So I think had
he remained the hard fastball, hard slider, dominant pitcher that
he showed up as a youngster, it might be more
reasonable to consider that, but I don't. I never really
thought of him in a sense that he was a
Hall of Fame candidate from what I've seen in the past,

(36:00):
and listen.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
I liked the guy a lot. We would be good friends.

Speaker 3 (36:04):
He was, like I said, the reason why I have
a World one of the reasons I have another World
Series ring is because of him. But I never really
saw his career as that. He kind of fell off
the map a little bit, reinvented himself, came back with
the change up and was listen, he was very good.
It was very good, but it just wasn't a dominance
about him. Later on that there had been early I'm

(36:24):
telling you, man, when he first came up, that slider, slurve,
whatever you want to call it, they probably would call
it a sweeper today. It was unhittable. The Giants in
the two thousand and two World Series they got to
see it firsthand. It just fell off the table. He's
way across his body. It's hard to pick up his fastball,
which was really good velocity at that time. I think

(36:46):
he signed when he was sixteen something stupid like that. Yeah,
really really good major league pitcher. I don't think a
Hall of Famer.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, one of the great out of nowhere stories. Ever.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah, we're all trying to scramble who is this guy.
He's got very few professional innings. I think he was
nineteen years old or something at the time. Give confidence,
I mean, give credit to the Angels organization. Somebody made
good decisions about this guy being ready to put him
in those spots.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
Well, yeah, we when he came up, you know, social
was a little bit reticent putting him in the games.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
We just didn't know.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
I mean, we're in this situation where, you know, trying
to get to the playoffs and you know, obviously winning
the World Series for the first time.

Speaker 4 (37:22):
It was.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
There's a lot going on there, so I don't remember
the exact situation, but finally we put him in a
game and he just dominated and he went in there
and he just slammed it with the fastball slider, and
it was just obvious, Okay, this guy's okay.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
And I think you can look this up. You probably
know better than me.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Was he put on the roster in September through the
utilization of a rule where somebody got hurt and then
we put him on.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
I think that's what happened.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, you're right, it was after September first, but he
had been in the organization at the time and there
was an injury, so he was able to be playoff eligible.

Speaker 3 (37:57):
Right, So we didn't really we didn't really see this
all in August and bring him up on September one
and we're relying on him to do all this.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
I think it was kind of like he sees.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
The moment he came in there and he said, I'm
going to show you guys what I can do.

Speaker 4 (38:09):
And he did.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
Man, from the very first time he went out there
to the last out of the World Series, he was
that dominant and it really helped Percy had a lot.
Troy Percival, another guy doesn't get enough credit for all
the body work he's done. But Percy and the rest
of that group, our bullpen was a really big part
of our success that year.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
So it makes me wonder how many future Hall of
Famers are on the Los Angeles Dodgers right now. It's
at least four, and we'll see who else they add
to this roster. It is by far the best team
on paper in Major League Baseball. Are the Dodgers too
good for baseball? We'll talk about that right after this

(39:00):
Welcome Back to the Book of Joe podcast. Over the weekend,
I probably noticed the Dodgers added more talent. They added
the best relief pitcher on the market in Tanner Scott,
and they added the most talented free agent pitcher available,
Roki Sasaki from Japan, who, by the way, is signed

(39:20):
for just five million dollars and will play out a
minimum salary because he is bound by International Free Agent
Amateur signing rules. It's an embarrassment of riches, Joe. I
look at this Dodger's staff, and I gotta be honest
with you. The first thing I did, I looked up
the most difficult staff to hit in the history.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Of Major League Baseball.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Turns out that belongs to the nineteen sixty eight Cleveland team. Now,
nobody hit in nineteen sixty eight. That's when they had
to change the rules, lower the mound, change the strike zone.
It was just a dearth of offense in baseball at
the time. But they did have Sam McDowell and Luis
Tiang combined to make almost seventy starts.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
For that team. I mean, they were both excellent. But anyway,
that's the toughest staff to hit. And I'm talent you.

Speaker 1 (40:04):
I look at this Dodger's staff right now, and it
is an embarrassment of riches. Tanner Scott is you know
last year his fastball was the most difficult fastball to hit.
It had the lowest slugging percentage of any individual pitch
in all of baseball. And then you have Sasaki, who
who throws like ninety seven ninety eight with a wipeout split.

(40:26):
Now he's been treated with kid gloves over there in Japan.
His innings high as one hundred and twenty nine. It
doesn't matter. If you watch this guy pitch, He's six
foot four, he's extremely athletic. He reminds me of a
young Zach Wheeler. I mean, he's got that kind of
ability to dominate. So now the Dodgers have Oh yeah,
Otani is back pitching, and you've got Tyler Glass. Now

(40:46):
you've got Blake Snell, You've got Yeshinobu Yamamoto. That's just
the rotation now with Sasaki there, and the Dodgers will
probably have none of those guys throw more than about
one hundred and forty innings. They will just divide this up,
make sure they get to October with at least three
of the top five starting pitchers healthy. And Joe, I
don't know about you, but if that happens, and I

(41:06):
know that sample size means anything can happen the postseason,
I don't see anybody getting through the Dodgers with that team.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
Your take on the Dodgers and how good they are.

Speaker 3 (41:15):
Yeah, I mean you just summed it up pretty well.
And I just read today where Kirby as may be
going there also, is that true?

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (41:22):
He had an unbelievable year last year. They're a little
bit concerned about Michael Kopek. He's got a little bit
of a forum inflammation, but yeah, why not?

Speaker 3 (41:31):
Well, I had Kirby with the Rays and even because
you still really are you in his favorite back in
the day. I really like this guy at that time,
maybe like a little bit jitterate moments, but he's really
figured it out with the split whatever that thing is
that he's thrown, and then he started to command his
fastball better. So yes, And as you're saying all this,
yes they are the best team. And as you're saying

(41:52):
all this, I just wrote down my one note to
myself if I'm working against them, and the work my
notes says, take chances to try to beat these guys
and can conventional terms or just just like if you're
the Podrais and approach them as though they're the Rockies
or the Diamondbacks or whatever. Ain't gonna happen. You have

(42:13):
to really sit down. And I'm not saying try to
get too smart about this, but I'm just saying, be
a little bit more unconventional. Take chances when you play
these guys, whether that's run more often, that's more chances
on defense, really being aggressive and shifts, et cetera. I
know you can't shift on the other side, but really
aggressive where you might place people bunny for hits, hit
and runs, whatever things that are non conventional things, make

(42:37):
them think, make them move, make them uncomfortable, because if
you trust try to beat them at the normal game
of baseball that they're playing, and try to match up
with all these people, it's like it's like playing a
great summertime team. Like back in the day collegiately, if
you're with us, with the Boulder Collegians or the gold
Panners from Alaska, Lacier Pilots, Anchorage or Liberal, you know,

(42:59):
with all these different summer teams, it would all stack
up and you have all these great names, and you
have these dominant teams collegiate teams back then that you
just knew that nobody could beat you. You knew nobody
could beat you. We were stacked with guys from Texas, Oklahoma,
the USC and of course Lafayette.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
So you just you had these teams that were stacked.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
They're like a really really good summer league team put
together by Baldy Musquete, just bringing in guys from everywhere.
So that's what you're up against. So you cannot just
go after them in normal terms or needs. You got
to think this is where the outside the box really
does matter.

Speaker 4 (43:35):
And yes, I'm int to do simple better.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
I'm into simplification absolutely, but why you're working from that,
and you definitely need to approach this first. First of all,
what's gonna happen is, oh, we can't beat them. The
Dodgers are the best. I heard that with the Cardinals
when I was at the Cubs. I heard that with
the Yankees and the Red Sox, and I was with
the Rays. You hear that crap all the time.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Think about it.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
I mean, you're talking about the Dodgers in these terms,
which is accurate. Just imagine being with the Rays back
in the day. Look at those teams, at the Rays,
the Red Sox and the Yankees had and that two
thousand and six to twenty ten fifteen kind of a
window or timeframe really good. And so if you go
into with that mindset that it's they're so good and
we can't beat them, you know what, it's going to

(44:18):
be a self fulfilling prophecy. So I'm on the other
side of this when when I hear all this stuff
about how good they are, how do you beat them?
That's that would be my first thought, how do you
beat them? What's going to take to beat them. What
kind of approach, what kind of players, what kind of
game do you have to play to beat these guys?

Speaker 4 (44:33):
And that's where I would start.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
I love that theory, Joe, and I use that all
the time when I see football teams, especially college football teams.
There's sometimes there's such a physical difference between those teams
that if you're the lesser team and you go up
against another team and expect to beat them straight up,
it ain't happening. So you're going to have to use
some junk defenses, put in some trick plays, throw in

(44:55):
some wrinkles that the other team hasn't prepared for. You're
not beating them straight up. So I love that theory.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
The difficulty about getting through the.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
Dodgers, the way I see it reminds me of the
Yankees in those years when they were winning something like
seventeen out a nineteen postseason series. Their rotation was so
deep that they could match up their number four against
your number one and it was at worst a draw.
A lot of the postseason is about, once it gets rolling,

(45:23):
how the rotations fall.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
Did you sweep through.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
The first round so you keep guys on term, do
you get pushed to the limit. Now you have to
start the next series with your number three against their
number one.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
It never mattered with the Yankees, whether.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
It was you know, Clemens Wells, Elduke gave Messina, any
one of those guys could match up against your number
one and it would be a draw. And that's the
way I feel about the Dodgers now with this rotation.
Now again, who knows how many of those guys are
gonna be healthy by the time you get to the
seventh month. But I'm telling you, the Dodgers are going
to manage, and I mean manage their entire season with

(45:58):
their foot off the pedal on all of these guys.
I mean the Garrett First of all, the books have
them at one hundred and three wins for an over
under it that is ridiculously high. You just don't see
a number like that, but it tells you how good
this team, how great this team is. So they will
do everything they can to limit usage six man rotation,
having guys go on glorified vacations for a week or two.

(46:20):
All that's going to happen with this Dodger team. It's
a very smart group and I don't want to hear
Joe all these fans complaining that Dodgers are getting all
these guys because they're deferring all this money. There's no
subterfuge to this. It's perfectly legal what they're doing. They
have more than a billion dollars, that's what it be.
A billion dollars that they're pushing down the road. It's

(46:41):
because it's a smart thing for them to do, and
if you think about how they can do it. They're
owned by Googgenheim Investments, which has more than three hundred
billion dollars of deferred investments that they push down. This
is what they do. They're in insurance, they're in investing.
This is nothing for them to push a billion dollars

(47:03):
down the road. So listen, give them credit because they've
built an organization that if you want to compete, and
mostly every athlete does.

Speaker 2 (47:10):
Yeah, it's about the money, but they all want a
chance to win the World Series. The Dodgers are your
best chance for that to happen.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
They've won ninety eight games at least every full season
here for the last five six years. So if you
want to compete for a world championship and you want
the best in technology and instruction you're going to sign
with the Dodgers.

Speaker 2 (47:28):
I don't hold that against them.

Speaker 4 (47:30):
Yeah, but David did beat Goliath, you know.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
And that's the thing that I've always enjoyed being in
somewhat of an underdog role in different situations. And I
think it should be creativity. In regards to creativity, it
should bring out the best in you if you are,
I think, primarily not afraid to make a mistake, primarily
not afraid to do something differently, take chances. I think

(47:53):
if you look at the Detroit Lions, I think there ascension.
A lot of it has to do with a little
bit outside the box. Their skipper Campbell, how he reacts
to situations. I think they been heavily supported thereby analytics
in the sense and when it came to their decision making,
because part of the fearlessness there is that if the
decision is backed by your analytical department upstairs and it

(48:15):
doesn't work, you're still going to be fine. You're still
gonna be okay. Nobody nobody's gonna get breathing down your
back and suggesting that you're doing anything wrong. So there's
a union there between what they've done. There's and it's
really lent to the fearless nature of how they play
the game. So for me, the team that's going to
beat the Dodgers, there's got to be a fearless component

(48:36):
to what you do and how you do it. It
cannot be cookie cutter, cannot be as everybody else.

Speaker 4 (48:41):
You cannot be worried about making mistakes.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
You never be worried about taking chances, and you definitely
have to go outside the box in order to do it.

Speaker 4 (48:48):
It's just the way, just the fact.

Speaker 3 (48:50):
And also the Dodgers, you know, they're pretty good at
developing too, so it's not just about these acquisitions.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
They also do a nice job.

Speaker 3 (48:56):
In house and they bring up names that you've never
heard of before they become quite successful.

Speaker 4 (49:00):
So it's a combination.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
They're utilizing all the different methods to build a team,
whether it's acquisition, draftning, free agency, trading, whatever. They've done
a wonderful job of bringing all those different elements together.
So for those that are engaged in trying to beat them,
don't be afraid of making a mistake, go after them,
and everything's on the table and the night you're playing

(49:24):
the Dodgers, not like it should be that way, all
the time. But whenever you're playing the Dodgers, rock and
roll man do not hold anything back.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
So there's already talked Joe about, you know, are they
good for baseball? When you think about the money they spent.
The Dodgers have more money spent committed now to future
payments than the entire American League Central Division. So there's
already talk that there's such an outlier in terms of
where they're going with payroll. It'll be close to four

(49:52):
hundred million this year, about three hundred and seventy five
million dollars. This convinces at least other owners that they
should really push for a salary cap. And anytime you
hear about salary cap and baseball, the next thing you
have to think about is the possibility of a work stoppage.
You know, they've tried many times, and every time they've
tried to get a salary cap, we've had a work
stoppage in this game. So this's already talk about the

(50:14):
twenty twenty seventh season being in jeopardy. The CBA runs
through the twenty sixth season. I'm not ready to go
that far, especially as you said, Joe, sometimes David does
beat Goliath. And if the Dodgers do get knocked off,
and let's face it, last year, don't forget, Padres almost
knocked them off. You know, they had them on the
ropes up two games to one in that divisional series.

(50:36):
So if they do get knocked off, all of a sudden,
you know you're talking about, well, this proves that spending
money doesn't buy you a pennant. So now it begins
to work the other way. So let's see how it
plays out. But just be prepared that the talk has
begun that something needs to change because the Dodgers are
too good for baseball.

Speaker 2 (50:53):
I don't subscribe to that.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
I'm just telling you that that's some of the chatter
that's starting up already.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
I'll tell you the regarding all that.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
That was their first full season World Series championship in
a while, just to just you know, so we're talking
all this, and that was that they nailed it down
last year.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
And when it comes down to winning, we just describe
the infrastructure, which is fabulous, and the amount of money,
which is fabulous, But it really comes down to a
Tawny Betts freeman primarily. I mean, there's a lot of
other nice players on that team, really good players, not
just okay. But it comes down to those three names primarily.
So if there's any kind of letdown among those three,

(51:28):
it can change dramatically, very quickly. So regardless of all
this wonderful infrastructure what they have, which is absolutely paramount
to success one hundred percent, but just a breakdown in
some of this structure during the course of the year
can really open the door for another group that just pop,
a team that just plays like the two thousand and

(51:49):
eight Rays or the twenty sixteen Cubs all of a sudden,
and then all of a sudden, you get to this
level that you had not been to before. So regardless
of all the wonderful things we've described and talked about
today and how great they are and how they got
it set up just right and they got the money
to back them up, it's really.

Speaker 4 (52:04):
About the players.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
So you got players of that magnitude. If things break down,
it can change somewhat quickly or dramatically at least for
one year.

Speaker 4 (52:13):
So that's it.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
I mean, if I'm on the outside looking in within
the No West, I'm looking at all those different variables
and I'm prepping for all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (52:21):
But at the end of the day, man, go for it.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
If you're not the Dodgers, you're in that group, just
be prepared to play them with your method, your style,
and you look for your little practice in the armor
that they may have and really try to exploit that
as well as you can.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
It's probably love this game.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Whether you're one hundred and twenty pounds or three hundred pounds,
or whether you're in a small market or a big market.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
You know, the outcome is never guaranteed.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
So I think the odds are that given a choice
between the Dodgers and the field the twenty nine other teams,
you're still better off taking the other twenty nine teams.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
This is the way baseball is. Joe.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
That brings us here to the ninth inning, and you
are Billy Wagner, the guy I trust the cl it
out without any drama, and you always bring us home
with some words of wisdom.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
What do you have today?

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Well, yeah, I was, you know, specifically thinking about the
Hall of Famers. I mean you kind of like the
way our conversation about the Dodgers probably bleeds into here
somehow a little bit but so impressed, and you think
about it's about a little CC growing up, or Etro
growing up in Japan, or Billy growing up wherever he
grew up. There's there's a lot, there's a lot of

(53:32):
there's dreaming going on. There's a lot of dreaming going on,
and you really want to eventually arrive at this particular juncture.
So for those that they're to dream of becoming a
Hall of Fame baseball players just supposedly just becoming a
baseball player. But Jack Canfield chicken was a chicken soup
for the soul. I think it was something like that.
But he wrote everything you want is on the other

(53:53):
side of fear, and then I read something else that
I loved about that, and on the other side of fear,
life's freedom. And that's when we really were talking about.
I did a gig the other day with the Montana
girls softball team for Tyler Jeski, a friend, and these
girls are fantastic and they were just trying to ascend
in their division up there, and just we just went

(54:14):
on and on, and I talked to them about finding
your voice and being heard and sticking to what you
believe in those kinds of things, and that's where the
freedom comes.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
In finding your voice.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Freedom is there's a certain component of freedom, a large
component of freedom that lies within finding your voice, that
confidence because you're no longer fearful and maybe what people
think or how you're going to be perceived. As long
as you're working from pure attentions, that's really a good
place to exist.

Speaker 4 (54:40):
So I thought that was it.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
The other everything you want is on the other side
of fear, and you've got to get past that. And
then once you do, you really feel free and unlocked
and able.

Speaker 4 (54:51):
To almost accomplish anything.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
And so for all the other teams in the n
O West, get on the other side of fear man
and that's where freedom lies. And so it's a combination
of wanting to become a Hall of Famer and having
to get on the other side of fears. As you're
ascending to be in the nl West to try to
beat the Dodgers, you got to get to that freedom.
That the freedom of thought and the ability to think

(55:17):
as your own as an organization and not trying to
become part of the industry and always settling for the
norms of the group. Right now as an industry, circle
your own wagons and go beat to Dodgers.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I love those words of wisdom, Joe.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
And as you were saying those, I thought about two
guys that each Hero and Derek Jeter to me, two
guys that really stand out, not the only ones, but
the ones that really stand out where they had no
fear of consequence, no fear of failure. That idea of
what happens if I don't get a hit there never
enter their mind. And it's such a special mindset. And

(55:52):
I hadn't thought about use of the word freedom to
describe it, but you're absolutely right. There is a freedom
associated with that.

Speaker 2 (55:59):
You know.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Derek used to tell me, you know, if I don't
get a hit, I'll just get it next time. What's
so bad about not getting hit this time? I'll get
it next time? And he truly truly believed that. It
wasn't some mind game that he played. Whether that's a gift,
whether that's a learned trait, I don't know. But I
love the fact that you attached that word freedom to
the absence of fear.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Love it.

Speaker 4 (56:20):
It's just another word for nothing left to lose.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Didn't she say that does sound familiar?

Speaker 4 (56:24):
Chopolin's right. I mean, I've always loved that line.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
You know, as a young man growing up, and you know,
eventually becoming a major league manager, had to overcome a
lot of fears just about putting myself out there, speaking
in front of large groups and telling them what you
think of what's on your mind, and having have the
confidence or conviction and the words that you're saying to
the point where you say it, you say them with
strength and conviction. It's easy to say them in your

(56:49):
own room, where you're driving your car or whatever is
you're lying in bed at night thinking of all these
clever things to say, but it's a different feeling or
method to be able to say it actually in the
moment when it really is going to count matter and
the moment you arrive at that point and you know
what it feels like.

Speaker 4 (57:05):
There's a freedom about that. And when you arrive at your.

Speaker 3 (57:07):
Own personal freedom to express yourself, then do you truly
become all that.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
You can be?

Speaker 2 (57:13):
Love it?

Speaker 1 (57:13):
Cool stuff as always, Joe, this is fine. We'll see
you next time on the Book of Joe.

Speaker 4 (57:17):
All right, temm, you have a great cold week.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
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