February 27, 2025 • 50 mins
Joe Maddon and Tom Verducci discuss Opening Day being around the corner and teams still looking for controlled velocity despite the impact on injuries. Which teams are the favorites to land former Cy Young pitcher Sandy Alcantara? We reflect on the team policies of George Steinbrenner and how things are changing with the Yankees updated rules on facial hair. Plus, Tom remembers the career of knuckleballer Eddie Fisher, who passed away this week.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,
I've got a question for you. What do these three
(00:26):
elements have in common? The PGA Tour, Major League Baseball,
and computer microchips.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
They're all being utilized to further the game somehow. According
to whomever.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I like that it's a little vague, but a little
more specifically speed. It's all about speed, right, I mean,
everybody of the tour is it's all about club speed.
Everybody's chasing speed, and it's happening on the mound. We
know that in the computer world. Well it's been true
for a long time, but it caught my attention, Joe,
as we got underway with spring training games. We're only
(01:00):
about four or five days into spring training games and
I am blown away, and so are the hitters, by
the way, by the amount of velocity we're seeing right
out of the gate. If you remember, Major League Baseball
released a study this winter. They did a deep dive
into the injury epidemic on the mound and one of
the driving forces they believe of injuries. After talking to
(01:21):
orthopedis and coaches, trainers, you name it was, that guy's
ramp up really hard in the offseason. Everybody's in their
pitching lab trying to add velocity and spin. It's amazing
how early they get on a mound, come to spring
training full bore, and that's what you're seeing right out
of the gate. Just to give you an idea, the
average Major league fastball two seamers and four steamers in
(01:43):
the first four days of spring training was ninety three
point seven miles per hour. That's what the regular season
average was just three years ago, and it's only a
tick or two above what it was in the regular season.
Last year. You had guy like the Dodgers, Yoshinobu Yashimoto
comes out, and remember this guy missed three months last
year with an injured shoulder. Five foot right hander threw
(02:05):
harder in his first start than he did his average
velocity in the twenty twenty four season. Jack Later hit
ninety nine point nine miles per hour. And Sandy al Contra,
who's a guy I want to get to very quickly
here coming back from Tommy john surgery. First time out,
he averaged ninety eight point eight miles an hour. That's
(02:25):
higher than what he threw before he blew out in
twenty twenty three. So, Joe, this game talks a lot
about innings limits. They talk a lot about giving guys
extra rest, and of course this season, all that's being done.
But what I see spring training has changed. Where guys
come to spring training in mid season arm strength form.
(02:47):
I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad,
but things have definitely changed where guys are just hitting
the ground running seven weeks before opening day.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What do you see, Well, a couple things. I mean,
first of all, the genie's out of the bottle. That's
what everybody's looking for, his velocity, So you're not going
to put that back in. Where guys are going to
all of a sudden become more and tune to want
to become pitchers hitting spots. You know, they're all into
shaping or forming of the pitches. I get that, but
it's not about location as much as it is blowing
(03:17):
away and you don't want the ball in play. You
want it to be in the catcher's mid it's got
to be a strikeout. So all that stuff, that's what
they've been hearing for the last couple of years, and
these guys know. I think that the way to stay
into good graces with the organizations and continue to get
paid is to throw hard, to strike out people with
(03:37):
a lot of spin. I just think that's that's the
framework right now pitching the contact no longer exists. There's
other things. First of all, there's adrenaline right now, like
a guy guy's coming off injuries could be adrenaline, adrenaline
pumped up. Some guys may be attempting to make a team,
and that also speaks to guys coming in great shape
(04:00):
on the fans. They're trying to blow people away literally
both and the batter's boxing in front offices to give
the an opportunity to make the team. But overall, like
a contract, I mean, looking at him, was he doing
it easily? Was lighter doing it easily? Is it just
like a like a Zach Wheeler kind of emotion? Or
(04:20):
even to gram who has always baffled me, how this
guy gets hurt with the delivery that he has. Are
they doing it easily? Are they really grinding to get
that velocity? So there's that would my first take. I'd
have to look at that. I mean, like except first
of all. First of all, first of all is that
this is what everybody wants, so you're going to get it,
and then making a team. Are they doing it easily
(04:43):
or is it just an adrenaline rush that's going to
back off? So guys like this, I would keep a
close eye on throwing that hard that early. What's going
to happen over the course of the next couple of
times out. I mean, for me, I didn't want my
guy strowing that hard that early, different completely quickly. Back
in the day oriols with I guess George Bamberger was
(05:03):
the pitching coach for a year, is very good couple
first couple of times out. I was told in by
several people that they weren't permitted to throw anything but
a fastball, meaning that you know, they're eighty five mile
hour fastball ninety mine, our fastball ninety two whatever. Their
big thing with Baltimore was the VP fastball, which is
another way to talk about changeups and those those staffs
(05:25):
are pretty unsuccessful. I mean, stuff like that no longer exists,
but I really believe it's a great way to start
a camp. You don't care if your guy gets his
earspin back as long as he's working on something specifically.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, i'd like to think that's still true, but unfortunately
we're't an age now where all the numbers are available
every time these guys go out there. And if a
guy goes out there and his velocity is down two
three miles an hour, you know the questions after the game, Joe,
what's wrong? Right? So you know, and I'm sure you've
done this. You put guys in the back field to
take away that adrenaline element you talked about. That certainly
(05:59):
can be a part of it that Dodgers did that
with Roki Sasaki. Try to take some pressure off him.
Throw in a minor league game in a backfield without
that adrenaline and so much prying eyes where guys are
not pitching to the gun. You always have good questions, Joe,
and hopefully I've got a couple of answers for you.
Specifically with Lighter and al Contra. The Rangers actually told
Lighter listen, ramping up to spring training, don't start hitting
(06:22):
your peak velocity in early January the way you had before.
Work your way up through stages of velocity through January
and February. He did that, and he felt like when
he threw and listen, he threw the hardest pitch he's
thrown in a major league game. I know it's a
spring training game, but you know, thirty five plus innings
last year, he did not hit ninety nine point nine.
He said it felt free and easy, that there was
(06:44):
less effort in his delivery, and he liked the fact
that he ramped up with velocity through January and February
to get to that point. So that at least sounds
really encouraging if you're the Texas Rangers. And al Contre
had his surgery in October of twenty three, so he's
far enough for move where he should be at full
arm strength. There had to be adrenaline, and you get
(07:04):
back on the mountain for the first time, and you know,
a year and a half, I'm sure there was adrenaline.
He threw seventeen pitches, fifteen were fastballs, the slowest of
which was ninety seven point eight, and he hit ninety
nine point three.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He pitched against the New York Mets, and to me,
I look at the New York Mets and the Baltimore
Orioles as two teams that need Sandy al Contra. I mean,
he's a difference maker. You can talk about Dylan Cees,
you can talk about Luis Castillo, if there's one name
that's out there. And I'm talking about making a difference
in the postseason because if you're Baltimore, you're the New
(07:41):
York Mets, you need swing and miss stuff to dominate
a postseason game against an elite team. Al Contre to
me is the number one guy to do that. And
if I'm the Mets and I saw him, and listen,
I know it's only one start. I'm not making a
final decision, but you had to be encouraged by the
way he threw the baseball. Do the Marlins trade him? Listen,
They're already under some pressure, Joe from the players Association
(08:03):
to spend more money. Right their payroll is only seventy
million dollars. Al Contra makes up twenty five percent of
their payroll. He's at seventeen and changed. They have nobody
else on that team who's making even five million dollars.
He's got another year left on this deal with a
contract option at twenty one million for twenty twenty seven,
(08:24):
so it's a long term buy Listen to me, it's
a race for Sandy Alcantra. I think I wouldn't wait
for July. If I were either one of those two teams.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, that would be for me. What is the motivation
of the Marlins? What are they trying to do here?
Are they trying to win the World Series? Or are
they trying to sell the club and reduce the price
in regards to what people have to pick up on
the other end regarding salaries. I mean, that's it. So
it goes back to the day when the commissioner was
able to act in regards to what's in the best
(08:55):
interests of baseball. How could you possibly argue that it's
in the best interest in baseball? And all these teams
attempt to do things like this on an annual basis.
I don't even imagine going to a spring training I think,
I guess maybe my first one as a manager with
the Rays, maybe, But you got to go there with
the intent I want to get to the playoffs and
then I want to win the World Series. And I
(09:17):
know sometimes when if you say that with a team
that has absolutely zero chance, it sounds crazy, But you
have to convince your players that we're going to camp
to win a World Series when your objectives on an
annual basis are far less than that. There, what are
we doing? I mean, this isn't just like a participation
trophy kind of a league. This is try to win
it all kind of a league. So that's what I'm
(09:39):
hearing right there. It's a dumb kind of a thing. Listen,
the guys outstanding. You're right about the teams that should
be and will be interested in them. But it just
screams to me, like, why why even be in the
business if you're in the business only to accumulate some
good players, sell them and constantly be in the state
of rebuild. If you look at the last several years,
(09:59):
the Marlins have got rid of some really good talent.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
There.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
They were dripping with with really good players for years,
and now they're just scattered throughout the league and they're
in the like the most the ultimate of rebuilds because
there's really no end in sight.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
That's a great point. I'm with you on the Marlins.
I think you know, every team has to be trying, right,
and I understand the Players Association beef that you're getting
all this money from Central funds and where is it
showing up in payroll? And I get the fact that
are they ready to win the World Series? No, but
there does have to be a balance there of putting
(10:34):
the best team out there. On the other hand, listen,
if you get Sandy Alcantra and you can make a
big deal I'm talking about for major league players, you
got to think about it. I mean, in the world
we live in now, you know, I believe Joe the team,
like the Mets and the Orioles, really don't have that
dominant pitcher. I mean, if the Mets, listen, they've already
had a couple of injuries in spring training, right You've
(10:55):
had Frankie Montas and Sean and I go down with
light injuries, non throwing injuries, which is to me, not
that not that some I worry when guys hurt their arms.
These guys are going to be back, and nobody pitches
two hundred innings anymore. Anyway, the Mets do have some death.
You know, You've got your guy Griffin Canning there to
provide some death there. You've got Tyler McGill, You've got
(11:17):
Paul Blackburn. They're okay in the short term, but I
look forward to October, Joe, and if your teams like that,
you have to look at October. Are the Mets getting
through teams like the Dodgers and the Phillies and the
Braves with their rotations matching up? Are starters against your starters?
Are the Orioles getting through the Yankees and the Red
Sox with the rotations they have. I don't know, I
need some more swing and miss stuff, and I do
(11:39):
think there's a priority now. I know it's hard to
find those swing and miss guys starting pitchers, but as
Sandy al Kantra is out there, I got to trade
some of my best prospects to try to get him
because those teams are going for it, no question.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That's what is exactly what's going to happen, and whether
I like it or not, that's the way the world exists.
I mean, I'm just as you're stock palling all that
stuff there, I'm just thinking about the race when I
was there in six two thousand and six, two at
fourteen and then the Cubs and the success that we
had in both places, and it was really I thought
(12:12):
centered around the starting rotations. I've always thought that starting
pitcher drives the engine. That's how I said describe it.
I always challenge the starting pitchers to accumulate a thousand
innings during the course of the season. I always felt
when you did that, it made for better bullpens, and
we had great bullpens in all those different places, where
then you get to use bullpens as you wanted to
(12:34):
as opposed to how you had to. And again it's
completely turned around. And again, listen, I always talked about
working the game backwards. I always wanted to work from
back to front two, meaning that I wanted to get
some better relief pictures in the game whenever we could,
and just try to eke out as many many innings
as you can out of this rotation. But then again,
when these guys are going six six plus innings, dang,
(12:57):
that makes it a lot easier to utilize your bullpen
as you want to and also give them adequate rest.
And part of that to not just dry hump guys
where you get guys up and have to sit them
down and I bring him in the game, which I
think has been eradicated a little bit by the three
batter minimum, where you know your pitcher's got to face
three hitters, so to get having to get guys up
(13:18):
constantly to match up from one out to another. Probably,
I don't know this for a fact, may have eliminated
some of the guys ups and downs where you utilize
them and have to just sit them down the rest
of the game and not even pitch them because you
warm them up so much. But listen, I understand what
you're saying to swing and misseduff. But if I had
an opportunity, I'd want to really teach my minor league
(13:39):
guys as you're trying to develop them, how to pitch
the third time through a batting order, how to get
guys out the third time through the batting order, and
utilize that kind of a thought process. It's got to
be developed. I mean, we just talk about it. It
can't be done anymore. But they'll tell that to shirz Er.
Don't tell that to Vera Lander. Don't tell that to
David Price, don't tell that to James Shields, Johnny Lester,
the guys that I've had. I mean, so I still
(14:01):
believe it's learnable. I still believe it physically and it's learnable.
And these are the kind of things I would want
to do. I want more innings out of my starters.
They're the group that needs to drive the engine that
gets us to the playoffs and the World Series. And
that's it. I mean, I just don't think that it's
emphasized enough, they're taught enough, or they're not concerned about
it enough, because this is what can make a difference
(14:22):
for a lot of teams.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I'm with you. Listen. We know starting pitchers they
throw far fewer innings than they used to. But I
still think this game, in terms of championship baseball, you
really do need starting pitching. I mean that has proven
time and time again in the postseason. Just to give
you some numbers here on Joe on velocity, because I again,
as you well put it, the genie ain't going back
in the bottle, right. The industry has learned really well
(14:46):
how to add velocity. Guys with really good arms become
great when it comes to velocity with the proper training.
So back in twenty twenty one, the average fastball was
ninety three point five. It's four seemers and two seemers.
And by the way, that was the last year Joe
that fastballs. We're a majority of pitches over fifty percent
(15:07):
since then, every year it's been under fifty percent. Tells
you how much spin is in the game. So it
went from ninety three to five to ninety three, seven
to ninety three to nine to ninety four last year.
You see a pattern here, right, it's not turning around.
I mean, we are bumping up against the limits of
really what the human body can actually do physically without
(15:28):
literally blowing muscles and tendons apart. But we have more
The universe of hard throwers is a lot higher now,
there's a lot more people there throwing upper nineties, so
that that I believe will continue to go up. I
don't see that trend falling where we're going to see
velocity go back down at all.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Well agreed, but you talked about the trend has been
to add velocity. Why can't the trend become then to
add innings again? And how did what is I mean
analytically speaking, I'm sure if they sat down and created
the formula to understand how to we increase the number
of innings pitch These starters pitched too. Why does it
(16:08):
just have to be about velocity? Why can't they be
run concurrently as opposed to like oppositionally so that would
be something to me that I I that would be
very curious. I'm telling you, man' given the opportunity, I
would really push the minor league side of things to
do that. I mean, after all, if you really want
(16:28):
to get affordable pitching, starting pitch and you got to
grow it yourself somehow, and that would be part of it.
The other part you talked about the increase of other pitches,
that's only because it's like you talked about swing and miss. Yeah,
velocity plays big, but velocity plays even bigger by throwing
more off speed because then then the fastball even has
(16:48):
a greater impact on the hitter. So I think the
like the Red Sox, they're the proliferation there of the
breaking ball, and they just choose the one pitch that
you like best or in their mind's eye, works the
best for you off of the fastball, and that's the
pitch that talking last year about the breaking ball, the slider,
that's what it's devolved into. I think. So they find
(17:09):
what they perceive to be your Tom Berducci's best swing
and mispitch, and they want you then to throw it
more than fifty percent of the time. And that's that's
pretty basic, simple stuff. But over a period of time
that's not going to work. That just turns into a
bad fastball. One hitters make an adjustment to that. So
I'd like to see more of ad as opposed to
add velocity. How do we add innings? And when it
(17:30):
comes down to the why the swing and miss is
increased in the sense of what they're looking for, that's
again the addition of the other pitch, whether it's a
change up. You hear about to change up, you hear
about sliders, breaking balls, all that kind of stuff. I
get it. But at the end of the day, if
you will, I would want to believe if you want
to add innings, then you have to learn how to
pitch your fastball better. And it might not just be
(17:52):
maxing out at your highest number. It might be more
about locating the ball and weirdly pitching the contact in
the sense to weak contact. And if you have a
a real lively defense, a defense that could really cover
some ground and starts in the right position, that also
plays well. So now you get starting pitchers making less
(18:13):
pitches earlier in the game, permitting them to throw more
pitches in a lighter part of the game effectively. It's
always been what I've looked for with my starting pitching.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Well, Joe, I mean, I listen. I'm old enough to
remember times when guys came to spring training to get
their arms in shape, right, sure, I remember, especially power
pitchers like Ron Guidry and Dave Rghetti, they were terrible
in spring training games because they use those six weeks
to build up their arm strength. Well, that doesn't happen anymore.
And one of the reasons why there is this pitching epidemic,
(18:43):
according to the MLB research that was done, was guys
ramping up to peak velocity, whether at training centers or
on their own. Every bullpen session they throw, they're on track. Man,
they're trying to read the spin and they're maxing out.
There's no modulation of velocity. So that's what caught my
eye these first few days in spring training. Again, I'm
not saying it's it's bad, it's worse, but Major League
(19:06):
Baseball does see a connection between ramping up all the
time without modulating velocity. And let's face it, if you
look at the injury rates, the worst month of the
year for pitchers is March. It's spring training when the guys,
just get on the mound, get that adrenaline going after
working hard in the offseason. Injury rates actually have gone
down in the regular season, but spring training now is
(19:28):
the time to beware. Hey, we're going to take a
quick break here, Joe, we get back. I want to
ask you about how you handle playing time for your guys,
especially your regulars in spring training. We'll answer that question
right after this on the book of Joe. Hey, Joe,
(19:55):
this caught my eye. It's Julio Rodriguez of this Seattle Mariners.
He's one of these guys we say, he's always a
slow starter, right. I'm sure you had some of those guys.
I remember back in the day Bernie Williams the Yankees.
We try so many different things and come out of
the gates slow all the time. Julio as in April
in his career, and listen, it's a smaller sample size,
but there's enough to go by. At this point, he's
(20:16):
a two thirty eight hitter with a two ninety six
on base percentage three forty seven slug in April. That's
not good. The rest of the year he's two eighty
six with a three forty two on base and a
four to ninety three slug. So how can you get
this guy off to a better start so he doesn't
start from behind after a slow April. Well, his idea
(20:37):
for talking to Edgar Martinez was, you know, maybe I
need more playing time, Maybe I need to see more pitches,
Maybe you need to track more pitches. Maybe you need
to go on backfields and stand in the box and
just guys are throwing live VP, you know, be a
part of that. That's what he's doing. He's actually taking
as many game reps or simulated game reps as possible.
So I'm curious, Joe, and I'm sure you must have
(20:58):
guys who had slow starts, and you map out playing
time for your guys, especially your everyday guys in spring training,
how do you handle it?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Well, First of all, a guy like him coming from
a very warm climate, I just and where he plays,
I would just think sometimes just just the weather in
and of itself can be detrimental just being just quite frankly,
it happens. I mean in Chicago, it's hard to get
off to the good start if you play a lot
of home games at really, when the weather is that awful,
it's just tough on a hitter. But that being said,
I've already covered some of it. First of all, what
(21:28):
I do in spring trainings, I create a week's worth
of lineups in advance, always in conjunction with my bench coach,
whether it was David Martinez, Brandon Hyde, all the good
different guys I worked with, Mark Loretta, all these dudes.
I always have the week's worth of lineups and then
you plug in it, throw me every other day minimum.
(21:48):
And part of it is you try to take care
of your veteran guys by not putting them on the road,
so all this is factored in. I like to do
that so I can give guys the heads up in
advance when they're going to play, and then they could
adjust their workout schedules accordingly. So that's it. I mean,
I've done that since I didn't structional leagues in the
nineteen eighties. I always worked a week in advance with
(22:08):
my lineups for those reasons, and with that, you count
at bats. Now. Back in the day, when I was
with TC Terry Collins, we tried to get everybody minimum
sixty at bats played appearances during the course of spring training.
For the most part, that's not even true anymore. Guys
don't care about like legitimate at bats anymore. You've already
alluded to that we've sent guys down to get minor
(22:30):
league at bats, whether it's you bring your own pitchers
to pitch against them, or if there's a minor league
game going on on your lower field, you send the
guy down there and they'll lead off for maybe six
seven innings and get six to seven at bats. That
kind of a thing to catch up. So there's different
ways to do that, but I always worked in advance
so that everybody would knew exactly what was going on.
(22:53):
Now I touched on it the on the road thing
for guys to really accumulate that bats. You've got to
get them to buy into going on the road. I mean,
we've taken care of these guys, and I've done it.
I've done it as a manager, take care of the varsity.
Always have taken care of the varsity. So you have
to really figure that out, and you have to convince
guys that it's important that they get more at bats.
(23:13):
But if you talk to them, they'll always tell you
that they do not need those more at bats. And
this is part of the rub these days. Before it
used to be kind of dictated in a sense. Now
it's more of a you know, you get together with
the player himself and you come to a conclusion what
you think according to them. Also how many they do need.
I still of the ILK that I would say at
(23:34):
least fifty at bats sixty is a really good number
in the course of spring training. And to do that,
like I said, sometimes you might have to play on
the road. And yeah, like say, for instance, somebody struggling,
like you know, Sam and Timmy used to love to
go down to the lower fields and get ten at
bats in a minor league spring training game in order
(23:54):
to play catch up and get more at bats going
into a season. So all these things are available to them.
So again it's kind of an individual thing. You pay
ten the guy, But I like minimums place and I
think a really good strong hitting instructor is really important
here in regards to having that conversation convincing somebody that
feels like they don't have to do it, because the
(24:16):
conversation in the clubhouse is we don't have to do this,
and flip it to the point, yeah, we do have
to do this because we want off to get we
want to get off to a good start. These first
week of games, ten days of games, two weeks of
games can make all the difference by the end of
the season.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, I mean, it just strikes me anecdotally, Joe that guys,
the everyday players, they get fewer at bats in the
quote unquote mainspring training games than they did even ten
fifteen years ago. I'm not sure why that is. I
know that you know the new pitching machines they have now,
which really do simulate live pitching, so well, you get
the equivalent. It's an approximation, but a pretty dark close one,
(24:53):
the equivalent of a game at bat. I guess it's
wear and tear as well. I mean, Joona, did you
ever have pressure, either direct or indirect, that get your
MAI guys on that field, especially for a home game
that might be televised back in the home market, and
any you know, influence from the front office or players
regarding you know, how much guys should play in those games.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Not really, It's just something you did anyway, because like
I said, you would take care of the varsity at
home normally the televised games. I never I never paid
attention to that quite frankly, and I never felt that
pressure from anybody. The front office guys from when I
can remember, really never were concerned about that at all.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Well, the league used to crack down when teams didn't
bring starting players on the road. That was the rule,
but I'm sure that was really enforced, that tight line, right.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Very tightly, right facetiously, the four guys on the road trip,
it's just guys that have played in the big leagues
of the year before. You never, yes, you try to
accommodate your home fan base more than you're going to
want to accommodate the road fan base. Like I said,
I mean a lot of times a year you took
care of the varsity, had them play at home. So
you look at this schedule right from get go, and
(26:06):
you try to match it up that way, and you're right.
You see some of these road games. I was looking
at the box scores today a couple of different teams,
and my god, I haven't been there in a couple
of years, but I didn't recognize hardly any names. It
was like a triple A game. But the last point
about the you're talking about the at bats and the
ability to simulate off the field The one thing you
(26:26):
can't simulate simulate off the field is the field where
there's no batting tunnel cage. There's not an enclosure behind
you for any of those golfers out there. Just like
when you hit inside compared to outside or in a
tunnel inside versus on the field, there's a different attitude
about it. When you're inside, you're going to work on
something specifically. I think, as an example, driving the ball
(26:47):
back to the middle, which is a good thing. But
when you get on the field, when everything's wide open,
it feels completely different. So to balance that I think
is really wise or smart, and I think that's the
one thing that this stuff cannot create. I've listened. I've
been into high velocity for years. Started with the Ponza
machine at thirty three feet thirty six inches high back
(27:08):
in the mid nineteen eighties an instructional league in Arizona.
That's when I first started doing it. Figured out the
velocity we were thrown out. It would put a speed
gun back there and it was the equivalent of like
ninety three to ninety four to ninety five miles an hour,
and I wanted it at thirty six inches high off
the ground. Because I wanted the ball to ride a
little bit, and I wanted to force the shortness of
(27:29):
the swinging by keeping the barrel above the hands and
creating more of a maximum shortness as the way I
described it, to the ball kind of antithetical to what's
going on now everybody wants to lift the ball back.
Then I wanted line drives to the OPO gap as
much as we could in order to really create the
right path to the ball and creating backspin. So that
was something the Angels have been doing for your So
the point, I even had a smaller ball developed by
(27:51):
a tech, a smaller baseball like I don't even know
if like maybe half the size, but with the same weight,
and it almost when you hit it, man, it reacts
like a dang golf ball. But again, the point was
to square up a smaller target at high velocity speed,
and we are able to do that on the field.
It puts with tighter nets on the batting tunnel, the
turtle on the field, as well as the screen protecting
(28:15):
the guy feeding the machine. All this stuff we've been
in play for years and I had a hard time
selling that back in the day, trust me. But eventually
a lot of guys got into it, and I made
it even more difficult by not only by making the
guys use a heavier bat and they could not choke
up to really emphasize hand action, et cetera. So this
is nothing new. Everybody acts as though it is, and
(28:36):
I got part of the idea came from Bob Clear
because apparently Alex Johnson used to do that. He went
to I think the batting title for the Angels one
year on the last at bat of the year, on
the ground ball the third base because he could run
so much. But this stuff's been in play. Everybody acts
though it's new, but it's been in play for a bit.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, I guess the equivalent now is a lot of
guys will get in the cage and it will spit
out foam baseballs. Say you're facing a picture like Christian
Hobvier who's got that high riding, you know, high vert
fastball top of the zone. The phone balls won't sink
as much and they'll try to assimilate that ride on
a forcing fastball top of the zone. And the benefit
(29:12):
is it doesn't blow up your hands if you catch
it off the handle. So yeah, definitely velocity is driving
this game. Hey, Joe, I have to ask you about
a topic that everybody is talking about, including my mon
senior at my local parish came up to me after
mass and had to ask me about it. So then
I figured I got to bring this up on the podcast.
(29:35):
The Yankees are allowing beards. You know, since George steinberand
brought the team in nineteen seventy three, it's been team policy,
no beards, right close cropped hair, well grew mustaches. Well, now,
since Devin Williams was traded from Milwaukee to the Yankees
and went to hell Steinbrand and said, what's up with
this beard thing? He asked the simple question like why,
And it's hard to defend. It's really impossible to defend
(29:57):
in today's world. So there's no more man of beards
by the New York Yankees. Now, you can't go all
Brandon marsh sever you're a Yankee. You just can't let
the thing grow and be unkempt. It has to be
well groomed. But give you your take. When you heard
the Yankees, the New York Yankees are allowing their players
to wear beards.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
You know, it's kind of like it's about time. Kind
of a thing. Listen, back in the day, there's different
ways to elicit discipline, and that to me, was all
about creating discipline within the group. And then somebody's perception
and he's the owner, I mean, whoever the owner is,
if he wants that, then he should get that. I
mean that was his way of creating a philosophy within
the group, kind of a businessman's mentality and a discipline,
(30:38):
and that was the way they elicited discipline for years.
I don't think it mattered as much other than you're
part of a fraternity by having to, you know, wear,
You're hearing a certain way of lack of facial hair
with the Yankees, so you know, from what I understand,
some of the guys in the past are kind of
upset by this because they had to live by it,
but these guys do not. I'm about creating discipline in
(31:02):
different ways. I think I think we should spend more
time creating discipline on the field as opposed to worrying
so much about that. I love individuality. I love the
fact that guys do look differently. I like that, you know,
some crazy hairdos. I'm okay with beards, mustaches, whatever. As
long as you play hard on the field. In regards
to dress. Dress codes was another way of eliciting discipline,
(31:23):
and for me, that's that was by the board also
because sometimes or maybe all the time, I think, if
somebody is able to dress in a manner which is
comfortable to them, we're going to get that person in
its entirety wherever he shows up, whether it's on a
team planer or on the baseball field, because he's not
concerned about more superficial items. I want my discipline on
(31:45):
the field. I want guys to respect ninety I want
them to run hard from home plate to first base.
I want them to go hard from first to third.
I want pitchers to work on their defense. I want
all the little the cutoff and relays. I want people
to be in position. That's where I want my discipline.
So I think you should spend and again I think,
you know, maybe you're spending more time on this stuff
(32:07):
that really is ancillary and not that important to winning,
whereas opposed to stuff that is we overlook because sometimes
a young coach or a manager even sometimes fails to
correct or point out mistakes on the field because they
don't want to upset the player, but they're willing to
upset them by saying you can't wear a beard, or
you have to have your hair in a certain way,
(32:29):
you have to dress a certain way. That's where the
incongruity is. To me. If you want to create discipline,
do it on the field, make corrections when you see
it necessary, demand a certain method of play from your guys.
And with that the exchange is, go ahead, dress however
you want. I don't care if you have a beard,
but I need this on the field when game time starts.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, And of course the irony is the twenty twenty
four Yankees. We're known for playing, you know, an undisciplined
brand of baseball right when it came to the fundamentals.
But they were well groomed. I feel for how steinbredder
in a way, Joe, because this obviously he was put
in place by his father, George Steinbrenner. Buy is the team.
In nineteen seventy three, George Steinbrenner went to Culver Military Academy.
(33:11):
He was a football coach at Northwestern. His background really
was in football and track, but mostly football coaching. And
it was that time, as you know this in the
seventies when you know, hair got longer, he had the
mutton chops, the long mustaches, the swing and as all
that thing. And he was trying to instill a new discipline,
(33:31):
if that's the right word, a new culture among the
New York Yankees. Let's face it, they weren't wearing anything
back in the late sixties and the early seventies, right,
So this goes back to something that Hou's father put
in for very good reasons. You know, you can disagree
with them, but he had his reasons for doing it. It
wasn't done willy nilly. He was proud of the fact
that the way the Yankees traveled and looked was different
(33:52):
than other teams. So I really, in some ways I
sympathized with hal Steinbrenner making a decision that's right for
these times. But in doing so, he really had to
say that what is fin did no longer applies in
today's world. That's not an easy place to be.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
No, that's what he knew at that time. So just
talk about the game itself. What's applied in the game
today is compared to what was applied back then. You
could talk about the revolutionary components of analytics versus old
school methods of baseball and how that's changed everything based
on who's in charge. The spoils go to the victors.
Who's in charge right now and who's sending all the
(34:31):
rules whatever, And that's what's happening regarding the way the
game is played, chasing a velocity, the three true outcomes.
All this stuff has changed over time based on that.
George Steinbrenner was in charge. That was his baby. He
gets to make the rules. That's what he saw his
way of eliciting discipline. Like you're talking about changing culture
and philosophy. So I agree with you. He's the owner,
(34:54):
he's the boss, he's the man. Yes, if I'm a
part of that team, I probably don't like it, but
I do it because this is what the person in
charge wants and I'm here to I'm an employee, so
I'm going to do what I need to do to
make this thing work and be right. So all this
there's always change. There's always change. But at the end
of the day, who's ever in charge gets to set,
(35:15):
gets to set and make the rules. I've always been
raised that way. Whether like I said, there's times they
haven't liked it. My pop never liked my long hair
growing up, right, You'd always give me a hard time
about it, but I wear my long hair anyway. But
I always respected my dad. You know, there's this different
We're all different, man. We all have different methods in
regards to what we think is the best way to
(35:36):
incorporate change and what the change may be and how
this is going to impact our future. That was mister Steinbrenner's.
He had his reasons, Like you said, I don't agree
with him, but had I been part of that group,
I would have done them.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Boy, Joe, you just brought me back to something. I
was going to start high school right, and my dad
brought me to a barbarous, old Italian barber down in Newark,
and I swore I didn't even know if they had
electricity there. It was old school is just you know,
the razor and the scissor and the comb. This again,
this is early seventies, and you know, people were wearing
(36:12):
their hair along and he brought me in there, and
to start out high school, he got me the shortest
and basically a crew cut. I was mortified going to
high school looking like that in the mid seventies. My
mother couldn't believe it. Either. But man, you just brought back.
It's not painful because I can look back and laugh
about it. But those things, man, they mattered so much
(36:32):
back then, didn't they?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Well they did. I mean I went to my barber,
Nicki Leger, and Nikki was known to have a bottle
on the other table there. It was like this brown
bag with a bottle in it that he'd take a
couple of snips at your hair. Then he'd walk over
there and take a sip of something. So I'm in
da Harmon in ninth grade, and he absolutely took a
clump of hair out of the front like this, right
(36:54):
in the front of my hair. So if my hair
came down and bangs it all, I was like missing
like an inch of hair right across. And I had
to live with that. My mom used to put some
kind of paste on it to make the hair like,
you know, come together, almost like a hairspray. But that's
I had to go through it. But it would take
at least a what's the difference between a good haircut
and a bad haircut? What is it about? One week?
(37:15):
Maybe ten days? So I had I didn't endure that,
And that's ninth grade. Man, New girlfriend all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I'm sure nobody noticed, right, that was.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Torture, man, absolute torture.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Hey, the game evolves, world evolves. We know that. And
when sometimes, Joe, you look back on some statistics and
the way the game was played, and you say, did
that really happen. There's someone who passed away recently, and
I look back in his numbers, and I asked those questions.
And we'll dive into that after we take a short
break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the
(37:58):
Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm not sure if you caught the news that Eddie
Fisher passed away ball relief pitcher eighty eight years old
to pitch fifteen years the Big League, six different teams.
In his nineteen sixty five season, Eddie Fisher did not
start a game, no starts. He threw one hundred and
sixty five in the third innings. He pitched in eighty
(38:21):
two games, He won fifteen games, and he saved twenty
four There's nobody in the history of baseball who without
starting a game, racked up those number of innings, wins,
and saves. I mean, it was amazing. And by the way,
he was in the same bullpen that was for the
White Sox with manager Al Lopez with Hoyite Wilhelm. Al
(38:46):
Lopez had two knuckleball pitchers in his bullpen that he
could go to eighty two games. Basically, he's throwing two
innings every appearance. Eddie Fisher as the knuckleball pitcher in
nineteen sixty five, I mean, come on, I mean, first
of all, you don't even see knuckleball pitchers anymore. I
know Matt Waldron throws one for the Padre is not
a true knuckleballer, but he does throw one that's gone away.
(39:09):
Having two in your bullpen and going to a guy
eighty two times to throw one hundred and sixty five
innings just wow.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, it was just I knew that he was a
knuckleballer as he was describing him. I forgot that Willhelm
was on that same staff. My god, they had to
have some unhappy catchers on that team. That's not easy
to do, especially in the latter part of the game,
if you have to catch guys like that. But the
knuckleball really is kind of a stress stress free pitch
to throw. We all screwed around with it on the
(39:36):
sidelines when we played catch with their buds back in
the day. Even as a high school pitcher, I used
to drop one in there once in a while. But
it takes really no, very little effort to throw it. It's
almost like an accelerated game of catch a bit, so
it doesn't surprise me that he was able to do that.
I would imagine he probably rarely ever broke eighty miles
an hour. The thing about knuckleball pitchers that I always
(39:58):
thought is that the times they had to throw a fastball,
because they normally maybe had to throw a foul just
to get a strike, it's what they did with that
fastball that really mattered. It would surprise to hit her, obviously,
but if it's I always thought it was really important
that these guys were able to just locate and throw
a fastball strike when necessary. A really good knuckleball pitcher.
(40:19):
And I don't know the makeup of his routine back then,
or Willhelm although I was a fan of both, very
aware of both. Mister al Lopez the Tampa area kind
of guy here, But I think the fact that they
were knuckleballers in that era permitted them to throw as
often as they did. I'd just be curious if there
was ever any ability to run that down. How often
(40:40):
they threw a fastball, on how hard they threw a fastball,
and again the fact that when they did throw a fastball,
it would be a strike.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, it's as I mentioned. Al Lopez was the manager
or Hall of Fame manager.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
That team won ninety five games, by the way, and
finished in second place, seven games behind the Minnesota Twins.
But here's a story from nineteen sixty four. Back then,
player reps. That was a dangerous position to have, right, Joe.
The Union was just starting out. Eddie Fisher was the
player rep. And actually, after that sixty five season where
he pitched his heart out, they traded him. The next
year Eddie Stanky was the manager. Pitched him actually three
(41:14):
times in the first five spring training games, which is crazy.
But they got rid of him midway through the next
season in part because he's a player's rep, which happened
back then. The Union was coming on strong and the
owners didn't like it. Anyway, nineteen sixty four, the White
Sox have a decent team, but they're not happy with
the press coverage. Right. They take issue with some of
(41:37):
the things the beat writers are writing. They're actually pasting
stories up on the bolton board in the clubhouse literal
bulletin board material. So one day they decide, we are
not going to talk to the press until at least
fifteen minutes goes by after the game. We're gonna make
those guys hang out outside the clubhouse stoor. That's when
you could go in right after the game. Now there
(41:58):
is a cooling off period. But fifteen minutes, well, the
manager al Lopez says, guys, you really shouldn't do this.
Can you at least get it down to ten minutes?
And the players agreed, so ten minutes they would lock
the door, not literally, but the door is locked. But
then al Lopez told his beat writers, guys, you guys
walk through the walk through the dugout to come to
(42:21):
my office. My door will be open. You can come
to my office first. I'm not sure whether the practice
to talk to the manager first started then, but how
about that the manager is taking care of their reporters
back then, saying instead of waiting outside, why don't you
guys walk through the dugout come to my office. We'll
do our interview first, and by then the ten minutes
(42:42):
will be over with. I mean it sounds like a
repudiation of his own players, but he's taking care of
the press. I gotta love that.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Isn't that what happens? Now? Did he start it? I mean,
is that how this whole thing started.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I don't know if he started it, but generally, I mean,
clubhouse opens maybe ten minutes after the game. The manager
always does talk first. But if you if you want
to skip the manager, you can just go straight to
the clubhouse if you want.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Got you, Yeah, But it seems like pretty much it's
the routine. A lot of teams right now have the
press room, Like Chicago was right across the hall from
the manager's office, which was really convenient and good. I
like the idea of permitting people to settle down a bit,
I do. I think that's a great idea. I didn't
realize that was not really a part of the fabric
(43:25):
back in the day, because since I was doing it,
pretty much was like they would always come to me
first and they would filter out into the clubhouse second.
But you have to understand that. I mean, if a
guys had a bad day, gosh, it's tough when you
get in there. If they've came and hits three home
runs to go talk to tomulus Sordo right afterwards is
not a good idea. You know, there's there's a cooling
off period that's absolutely necessary. And a lot of situations
(43:47):
it's hard you lose a tough game, or if particularly
if as a player you feel like somewhat responsible for
the team, not when you're as a manager you really felt,
you know, kind of ambivalent about a decision that you make.
You still got to like kind of filter through that
come to terms that they're just a little bit so
I like a little a little buffer in there. And
(44:08):
realizing that mister Lopez decided to do that, I think
that's pressing on his part. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
That is very cool. As you know, the manager jobs
at Joe and you're so good at this, and Joe
Torre as well, and I think Aaron Boone actually does
a good job too. You're really a buffer for your players, right,
I mean, you can make you can take the heat
off your players by setting the narrative. In that initial
press conference after the game, something happened in the game,
and and Bobby Cox was another one like this. I
(44:36):
remember Tom Glavin telling me Tom Glavin, just have a rare,
really really bad game. Nothing was working, making a lot
of mistakes, ready to wear it, and Bobby Cox would
have the reporters in his office first as customary, and
Cox would basically say Tom Glavin was great, he was
just unlucky, like he watched a completely different game. He's
(44:56):
just taking care of his guy. But now you establish
a narrative with the media and they follow up with
Glavin and they say, well, I guess you were a
little unlucky. Some calls didn't go your ways and bounces.
It's such a I don't want to say it's a gift,
but it is kind of a skill for managers, isn't
it to really set the narrative. And I'm not saying
you can control it, but you know, at least you
(45:19):
can put a word out there and drive where the
discussions are going.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
One hundred percent. I mean, I always thought that every
press conference I had was kind of a team meeting
because I wasn't really into team meeting. So I knew,
for the most part, players are going to read or
somebody's going to read and tell them about or they'll
catch a clip on television at some point of you speaking.
So if you want to get a point across. I
always try to get it across in a positive way
(45:45):
and always shine a positive light on the player. If
I had something on a negative issue with the with
the player, I would get him privately. Early on in
my managerial career, somebody spoke those words to me praise publicly,
criticized privately. Woof did that stick with me so? Well? Yes,
(46:05):
you know you tell you tell the press. I always
wanted to be on another thing was absolutely honest with
the press, and sometimes being honest would just be like
I would tell listen, I really can't tell you everything,
or I can't I really can't answer that question right now,
but I would be honest about it because you don't
want to lead them in the wrong direction. Ever. So
that was big for me and part of the what
(46:26):
people don't understand, like post games, something may have happened
in injury wise, or something may have happened where you
might be making a move, and a lot of times
the front office will generate like the first part of
this news conference to you by advising you how you
want they want you to frame this going forward, so
that you don't part of it's good because you want
to be on the same path message wise, so you
(46:49):
don't want to be disputing one another's message, so that
that's also part of this, and I think that's good
because when it comes down to like situations where really
can be impactful to a player is psyche or maybe
his near future, you definitely want to be on the
same page with that. So there's warrant to this. Then
people understand. I do agree with that. I do agree
(47:09):
with the messaging being consistent, but I also agree with
the message being honest and straightforward. So sometimes I was
at odds with front offices because they would want to
dissemble a bit, and I didn't want to dissemble. I
wanted to go Jack Ryan. I always wanted to tell
you exactly what I got here. But if I can't
tell you exactly what I got, I would tell you
that I can't, and that would be one of the
(47:29):
first things I would say to the group as they
came in. But yes, you're always as a manager, you're
always there to protect your brood.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Well, here at the Book of Joe, you are are
Jack Ryan. You're also our Eddie Fisher where I hand
you a ball to close it out and you go long.
You're not just a three out guy. So I know
you always bring us words of wisdom. What do you
have this time to close out this edition of the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, I mean, I'm just like you brought it up
earlier in a different way of talking about change, whether
it's the Yankees changing their thoughts on their hair policy,
the changes in the game regarding rule changes, the fact
that pictures come out throwing heat from the very first
spring training game as opposed to guys working their way
(48:16):
in the shapes. And I just got a bunch of
stuff here that I was all about. The word change,
and that's what we're basically talking about here. So I
was like a lot. I had a lot going on
this morning thinking about all this. But you know, part
of it is adapt adaptation. Intelligence is the ability to
adapt to change. Again, because I just talked about Listen,
(48:38):
I wouldn't like the idea of having to cut my hair,
but I would have done it. Colin Powell. A great
line from Colin Powell to regarding how we advised the president.
I give him my best advice, and then I give
him my strongest loyalty. Change adaptation the ability to I
don't want to say play along, but be a team player.
(48:59):
So at the end of the day, let me see
if I could just sum this all up. If you
don't like something, change, If you can't change it, change
your attitude. And I talk to myself about that all
the time too, you know, because I do. I do
get passionate about subjects that I believe are wrong and appropriate.
(49:19):
I like my thoughts better. But at the end of
the day, sometimes you just have to, you know, work
your thoughts at the point where you don't give up
on your your philosophies and what you believe in. But
at some point you have to morph it a little
bit to fit into this group and make it better.
So if you don't like something, change it. If you
(49:40):
can't change it, change your attitude. And at the end
of the day, attitude is a decision. Listen. I could
go on and on about this stuff, but that's it.
They're all interchangeable. Regarding what we talked about today.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yeah, that's a great reminder, because let's face it, it's
human nature to resist change, right, we don't like change.
The easy thing to do is always to stay the
course and not to change. And yet we just spent
most of this episode talking about change and adaptability. Super important,
absolutely good stuff. Job. We'll see you next time on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Thanks Tommy, you will.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
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or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.
Hey there, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcast
with me, Tom Verducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,
I've got a question for you. What do these three
(00:26):
elements have in common? The PGA Tour, Major League Baseball,
and computer microchips.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
They're all being utilized to further the game somehow. According
to whomever.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I like that it's a little vague, but a little
more specifically speed. It's all about speed, right, I mean,
everybody of the tour is it's all about club speed.
Everybody's chasing speed, and it's happening on the mound. We
know that in the computer world. Well it's been true
for a long time, but it caught my attention, Joe,
as we got underway with spring training games. We're only
(01:00):
about four or five days into spring training games and
I am blown away, and so are the hitters, by
the way, by the amount of velocity we're seeing right
out of the gate. If you remember, Major League Baseball
released a study this winter. They did a deep dive
into the injury epidemic on the mound and one of
the driving forces they believe of injuries. After talking to
(01:21):
orthopedis and coaches, trainers, you name it was, that guy's
ramp up really hard in the offseason. Everybody's in their
pitching lab trying to add velocity and spin. It's amazing
how early they get on a mound, come to spring
training full bore, and that's what you're seeing right out
of the gate. Just to give you an idea, the
average Major league fastball two seamers and four steamers in
(01:43):
the first four days of spring training was ninety three
point seven miles per hour. That's what the regular season
average was just three years ago, and it's only a
tick or two above what it was in the regular season.
Last year. You had guy like the Dodgers, Yoshinobu Yashimoto
comes out, and remember this guy missed three months last
year with an injured shoulder. Five foot right hander threw
(02:05):
harder in his first start than he did his average
velocity in the twenty twenty four season. Jack Later hit
ninety nine point nine miles per hour. And Sandy al Contra,
who's a guy I want to get to very quickly
here coming back from Tommy john surgery. First time out,
he averaged ninety eight point eight miles an hour. That's
(02:25):
higher than what he threw before he blew out in
twenty twenty three. So, Joe, this game talks a lot
about innings limits. They talk a lot about giving guys
extra rest, and of course this season, all that's being done.
But what I see spring training has changed. Where guys
come to spring training in mid season arm strength form.
(02:47):
I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying it's bad,
but things have definitely changed where guys are just hitting
the ground running seven weeks before opening day.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
What do you see, Well, a couple things. I mean,
first of all, the genie's out of the bottle. That's
what everybody's looking for, his velocity, So you're not going
to put that back in. Where guys are going to
all of a sudden become more and tune to want
to become pitchers hitting spots. You know, they're all into
shaping or forming of the pitches. I get that, but
it's not about location as much as it is blowing
(03:17):
away and you don't want the ball in play. You
want it to be in the catcher's mid it's got
to be a strikeout. So all that stuff, that's what
they've been hearing for the last couple of years, and
these guys know. I think that the way to stay
into good graces with the organizations and continue to get
paid is to throw hard, to strike out people with
(03:37):
a lot of spin. I just think that's that's the
framework right now pitching the contact no longer exists. There's
other things. First of all, there's adrenaline right now, like
a guy guy's coming off injuries could be adrenaline, adrenaline
pumped up. Some guys may be attempting to make a team,
and that also speaks to guys coming in great shape
(04:00):
on the fans. They're trying to blow people away literally
both and the batter's boxing in front offices to give
the an opportunity to make the team. But overall, like
a contract, I mean, looking at him, was he doing
it easily? Was lighter doing it easily? Is it just
like a like a Zach Wheeler kind of emotion? Or
(04:20):
even to gram who has always baffled me, how this
guy gets hurt with the delivery that he has. Are
they doing it easily? Are they really grinding to get
that velocity? So there's that would my first take. I'd
have to look at that. I mean, like except first
of all. First of all, first of all is that
this is what everybody wants, so you're going to get it,
and then making a team. Are they doing it easily
(04:43):
or is it just an adrenaline rush that's going to
back off? So guys like this, I would keep a
close eye on throwing that hard that early. What's going
to happen over the course of the next couple of
times out. I mean, for me, I didn't want my
guy strowing that hard that early, different completely quickly. Back
in the day oriols with I guess George Bamberger was
(05:03):
the pitching coach for a year, is very good couple
first couple of times out. I was told in by
several people that they weren't permitted to throw anything but
a fastball, meaning that you know, they're eighty five mile
hour fastball ninety mine, our fastball ninety two whatever. Their
big thing with Baltimore was the VP fastball, which is
another way to talk about changeups and those those staffs
(05:25):
are pretty unsuccessful. I mean, stuff like that no longer exists,
but I really believe it's a great way to start
a camp. You don't care if your guy gets his
earspin back as long as he's working on something specifically.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, i'd like to think that's still true, but unfortunately
we're't an age now where all the numbers are available
every time these guys go out there. And if a
guy goes out there and his velocity is down two
three miles an hour, you know the questions after the game, Joe,
what's wrong? Right? So you know, and I'm sure you've
done this. You put guys in the back field to
take away that adrenaline element you talked about. That certainly
(05:59):
can be a part of it that Dodgers did that
with Roki Sasaki. Try to take some pressure off him.
Throw in a minor league game in a backfield without
that adrenaline and so much prying eyes where guys are
not pitching to the gun. You always have good questions, Joe,
and hopefully I've got a couple of answers for you.
Specifically with Lighter and al Contra. The Rangers actually told
Lighter listen, ramping up to spring training, don't start hitting
(06:22):
your peak velocity in early January the way you had before.
Work your way up through stages of velocity through January
and February. He did that, and he felt like when
he threw and listen, he threw the hardest pitch he's
thrown in a major league game. I know it's a
spring training game, but you know, thirty five plus innings
last year, he did not hit ninety nine point nine.
He said it felt free and easy, that there was
(06:44):
less effort in his delivery, and he liked the fact
that he ramped up with velocity through January and February
to get to that point. So that at least sounds
really encouraging if you're the Texas Rangers. And al Contre
had his surgery in October of twenty three, so he's
far enough for move where he should be at full
arm strength. There had to be adrenaline, and you get
(07:04):
back on the mountain for the first time, and you know,
a year and a half, I'm sure there was adrenaline.
He threw seventeen pitches, fifteen were fastballs, the slowest of
which was ninety seven point eight, and he hit ninety
nine point three.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
He pitched against the New York Mets, and to me,
I look at the New York Mets and the Baltimore
Orioles as two teams that need Sandy al Contra. I mean,
he's a difference maker. You can talk about Dylan Cees,
you can talk about Luis Castillo, if there's one name
that's out there. And I'm talking about making a difference
in the postseason because if you're Baltimore, you're the New
(07:41):
York Mets, you need swing and miss stuff to dominate
a postseason game against an elite team. Al Contre to
me is the number one guy to do that. And
if I'm the Mets and I saw him, and listen,
I know it's only one start. I'm not making a
final decision, but you had to be encouraged by the
way he threw the baseball. Do the Marlins trade him? Listen,
They're already under some pressure, Joe from the players Association
(08:03):
to spend more money. Right their payroll is only seventy
million dollars. Al Contra makes up twenty five percent of
their payroll. He's at seventeen and changed. They have nobody
else on that team who's making even five million dollars.
He's got another year left on this deal with a
contract option at twenty one million for twenty twenty seven,
(08:24):
so it's a long term buy Listen to me, it's
a race for Sandy Alcantra. I think I wouldn't wait
for July. If I were either one of those two teams.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Well, that would be for me. What is the motivation
of the Marlins? What are they trying to do here?
Are they trying to win the World Series? Or are
they trying to sell the club and reduce the price
in regards to what people have to pick up on
the other end regarding salaries. I mean, that's it. So
it goes back to the day when the commissioner was
able to act in regards to what's in the best
(08:55):
interests of baseball. How could you possibly argue that it's
in the best interest in baseball? And all these teams
attempt to do things like this on an annual basis.
I don't even imagine going to a spring training I think,
I guess maybe my first one as a manager with
the Rays, maybe, But you got to go there with
the intent I want to get to the playoffs and
then I want to win the World Series. And I
(09:17):
know sometimes when if you say that with a team
that has absolutely zero chance, it sounds crazy, But you
have to convince your players that we're going to camp
to win a World Series when your objectives on an
annual basis are far less than that. There, what are
we doing? I mean, this isn't just like a participation
trophy kind of a league. This is try to win
it all kind of a league. So that's what I'm
(09:39):
hearing right there. It's a dumb kind of a thing. Listen,
the guys outstanding. You're right about the teams that should
be and will be interested in them. But it just
screams to me, like, why why even be in the
business if you're in the business only to accumulate some
good players, sell them and constantly be in the state
of rebuild. If you look at the last several years,
(09:59):
the Marlins have got rid of some really good talent.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
There.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
They were dripping with with really good players for years,
and now they're just scattered throughout the league and they're
in the like the most the ultimate of rebuilds because
there's really no end in sight.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
That's a great point. I'm with you on the Marlins.
I think you know, every team has to be trying, right,
and I understand the Players Association beef that you're getting
all this money from Central funds and where is it
showing up in payroll? And I get the fact that
are they ready to win the World Series? No, but
there does have to be a balance there of putting
(10:34):
the best team out there. On the other hand, listen,
if you get Sandy Alcantra and you can make a
big deal I'm talking about for major league players, you
got to think about it. I mean, in the world
we live in now, you know, I believe Joe the team,
like the Mets and the Orioles, really don't have that
dominant pitcher. I mean, if the Mets, listen, they've already
had a couple of injuries in spring training, right You've
(10:55):
had Frankie Montas and Sean and I go down with
light injuries, non throwing injuries, which is to me, not
that not that some I worry when guys hurt their arms.
These guys are going to be back, and nobody pitches
two hundred innings anymore. Anyway, the Mets do have some death.
You know, You've got your guy Griffin Canning there to
provide some death there. You've got Tyler McGill, You've got
(11:17):
Paul Blackburn. They're okay in the short term, but I
look forward to October, Joe, and if your teams like that,
you have to look at October. Are the Mets getting
through teams like the Dodgers and the Phillies and the
Braves with their rotations matching up? Are starters against your starters?
Are the Orioles getting through the Yankees and the Red
Sox with the rotations they have. I don't know, I
need some more swing and miss stuff, and I do
(11:39):
think there's a priority now. I know it's hard to
find those swing and miss guys starting pitchers, but as
Sandy al Kantra is out there, I got to trade
some of my best prospects to try to get him
because those teams are going for it, no question.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That's what is exactly what's going to happen, and whether
I like it or not, that's the way the world exists.
I mean, I'm just as you're stock palling all that
stuff there, I'm just thinking about the race when I
was there in six two thousand and six, two at
fourteen and then the Cubs and the success that we
had in both places, and it was really I thought
(12:12):
centered around the starting rotations. I've always thought that starting
pitcher drives the engine. That's how I said describe it.
I always challenge the starting pitchers to accumulate a thousand
innings during the course of the season. I always felt
when you did that, it made for better bullpens, and
we had great bullpens in all those different places, where
then you get to use bullpens as you wanted to
(12:34):
as opposed to how you had to. And again it's
completely turned around. And again, listen, I always talked about
working the game backwards. I always wanted to work from
back to front two, meaning that I wanted to get
some better relief pictures in the game whenever we could,
and just try to eke out as many many innings
as you can out of this rotation. But then again,
when these guys are going six six plus innings, dang,
(12:57):
that makes it a lot easier to utilize your bullpen
as you want to and also give them adequate rest.
And part of that to not just dry hump guys
where you get guys up and have to sit them
down and I bring him in the game, which I
think has been eradicated a little bit by the three
batter minimum, where you know your pitcher's got to face
three hitters, so to get having to get guys up
(13:18):
constantly to match up from one out to another. Probably,
I don't know this for a fact, may have eliminated
some of the guys ups and downs where you utilize
them and have to just sit them down the rest
of the game and not even pitch them because you
warm them up so much. But listen, I understand what
you're saying to swing and misseduff. But if I had
an opportunity, I'd want to really teach my minor league
(13:39):
guys as you're trying to develop them, how to pitch
the third time through a batting order, how to get
guys out the third time through the batting order, and
utilize that kind of a thought process. It's got to
be developed. I mean, we just talk about it. It
can't be done anymore. But they'll tell that to shirz Er.
Don't tell that to Vera Lander. Don't tell that to
David Price, don't tell that to James Shields, Johnny Lester,
the guys that I've had. I mean, so I still
(14:01):
believe it's learnable. I still believe it physically and it's learnable.
And these are the kind of things I would want
to do. I want more innings out of my starters.
They're the group that needs to drive the engine that
gets us to the playoffs and the World Series. And
that's it. I mean, I just don't think that it's
emphasized enough, they're taught enough, or they're not concerned about
it enough, because this is what can make a difference
(14:22):
for a lot of teams.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, I'm with you. Listen. We know starting pitchers they
throw far fewer innings than they used to. But I
still think this game, in terms of championship baseball, you
really do need starting pitching. I mean that has proven
time and time again in the postseason. Just to give
you some numbers here on Joe on velocity, because I again,
as you well put it, the genie ain't going back
in the bottle, right. The industry has learned really well
(14:46):
how to add velocity. Guys with really good arms become
great when it comes to velocity with the proper training.
So back in twenty twenty one, the average fastball was
ninety three point five. It's four seemers and two seemers.
And by the way, that was the last year Joe
that fastballs. We're a majority of pitches over fifty percent
(15:07):
since then, every year it's been under fifty percent. Tells
you how much spin is in the game. So it
went from ninety three to five to ninety three, seven
to ninety three to nine to ninety four last year.
You see a pattern here, right, it's not turning around.
I mean, we are bumping up against the limits of
really what the human body can actually do physically without
(15:28):
literally blowing muscles and tendons apart. But we have more
The universe of hard throwers is a lot higher now,
there's a lot more people there throwing upper nineties, so
that that I believe will continue to go up. I
don't see that trend falling where we're going to see
velocity go back down at all.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Well agreed, but you talked about the trend has been
to add velocity. Why can't the trend become then to
add innings again? And how did what is I mean
analytically speaking, I'm sure if they sat down and created
the formula to understand how to we increase the number
of innings pitch These starters pitched too. Why does it
(16:08):
just have to be about velocity? Why can't they be
run concurrently as opposed to like oppositionally so that would
be something to me that I I that would be
very curious. I'm telling you, man' given the opportunity, I
would really push the minor league side of things to
do that. I mean, after all, if you really want
(16:28):
to get affordable pitching, starting pitch and you got to
grow it yourself somehow, and that would be part of it.
The other part you talked about the increase of other pitches,
that's only because it's like you talked about swing and miss. Yeah,
velocity plays big, but velocity plays even bigger by throwing
more off speed because then then the fastball even has
(16:48):
a greater impact on the hitter. So I think the
like the Red Sox, they're the proliferation there of the
breaking ball, and they just choose the one pitch that
you like best or in their mind's eye, works the
best for you off of the fastball, and that's the
pitch that talking last year about the breaking ball, the slider,
that's what it's devolved into. I think. So they find
(17:09):
what they perceive to be your Tom Berducci's best swing
and mispitch, and they want you then to throw it
more than fifty percent of the time. And that's that's
pretty basic, simple stuff. But over a period of time
that's not going to work. That just turns into a
bad fastball. One hitters make an adjustment to that. So
I'd like to see more of ad as opposed to
add velocity. How do we add innings? And when it
(17:30):
comes down to the why the swing and miss is
increased in the sense of what they're looking for, that's
again the addition of the other pitch, whether it's a
change up. You hear about to change up, you hear
about sliders, breaking balls, all that kind of stuff. I
get it. But at the end of the day, if
you will, I would want to believe if you want
to add innings, then you have to learn how to
pitch your fastball better. And it might not just be
(17:52):
maxing out at your highest number. It might be more
about locating the ball and weirdly pitching the contact in
the sense to weak contact. And if you have a
a real lively defense, a defense that could really cover
some ground and starts in the right position, that also
plays well. So now you get starting pitchers making less
(18:13):
pitches earlier in the game, permitting them to throw more
pitches in a lighter part of the game effectively. It's
always been what I've looked for with my starting pitching.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Well, Joe, I mean, I listen. I'm old enough to
remember times when guys came to spring training to get
their arms in shape, right, sure, I remember, especially power
pitchers like Ron Guidry and Dave Rghetti, they were terrible
in spring training games because they use those six weeks
to build up their arm strength. Well, that doesn't happen anymore.
And one of the reasons why there is this pitching epidemic,
(18:43):
according to the MLB research that was done, was guys
ramping up to peak velocity, whether at training centers or
on their own. Every bullpen session they throw, they're on track. Man,
they're trying to read the spin and they're maxing out.
There's no modulation of velocity. So that's what caught my
eye these first few days in spring training. Again, I'm
not saying it's it's bad, it's worse, but Major League
(19:06):
Baseball does see a connection between ramping up all the
time without modulating velocity. And let's face it, if you
look at the injury rates, the worst month of the
year for pitchers is March. It's spring training when the guys,
just get on the mound, get that adrenaline going after
working hard in the offseason. Injury rates actually have gone
down in the regular season, but spring training now is
(19:28):
the time to beware. Hey, we're going to take a
quick break here, Joe, we get back. I want to
ask you about how you handle playing time for your guys,
especially your regulars in spring training. We'll answer that question
right after this on the book of Joe. Hey, Joe,
(19:55):
this caught my eye. It's Julio Rodriguez of this Seattle Mariners.
He's one of these guys we say, he's always a
slow starter, right. I'm sure you had some of those guys.
I remember back in the day Bernie Williams the Yankees.
We try so many different things and come out of
the gates slow all the time. Julio as in April
in his career, and listen, it's a smaller sample size,
but there's enough to go by. At this point, he's
(20:16):
a two thirty eight hitter with a two ninety six
on base percentage three forty seven slug in April. That's
not good. The rest of the year he's two eighty
six with a three forty two on base and a
four to ninety three slug. So how can you get
this guy off to a better start so he doesn't
start from behind after a slow April. Well, his idea
(20:37):
for talking to Edgar Martinez was, you know, maybe I
need more playing time, Maybe I need to see more pitches,
Maybe you need to track more pitches. Maybe you need
to go on backfields and stand in the box and
just guys are throwing live VP, you know, be a
part of that. That's what he's doing. He's actually taking
as many game reps or simulated game reps as possible.
So I'm curious, Joe, and I'm sure you must have
(20:58):
guys who had slow starts, and you map out playing
time for your guys, especially your everyday guys in spring training,
how do you handle it?
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Well, First of all, a guy like him coming from
a very warm climate, I just and where he plays,
I would just think sometimes just just the weather in
and of itself can be detrimental just being just quite frankly,
it happens. I mean in Chicago, it's hard to get
off to the good start if you play a lot
of home games at really, when the weather is that awful,
it's just tough on a hitter. But that being said,
I've already covered some of it. First of all, what
(21:28):
I do in spring trainings, I create a week's worth
of lineups in advance, always in conjunction with my bench coach,
whether it was David Martinez, Brandon Hyde, all the good
different guys I worked with, Mark Loretta, all these dudes.
I always have the week's worth of lineups and then
you plug in it, throw me every other day minimum.
(21:48):
And part of it is you try to take care
of your veteran guys by not putting them on the road,
so all this is factored in. I like to do
that so I can give guys the heads up in
advance when they're going to play, and then they could
adjust their workout schedules accordingly. So that's it. I mean,
I've done that since I didn't structional leagues in the
nineteen eighties. I always worked a week in advance with
(22:08):
my lineups for those reasons, and with that, you count
at bats. Now. Back in the day, when I was
with TC Terry Collins, we tried to get everybody minimum
sixty at bats played appearances during the course of spring training.
For the most part, that's not even true anymore. Guys
don't care about like legitimate at bats anymore. You've already
alluded to that we've sent guys down to get minor
(22:30):
league at bats, whether it's you bring your own pitchers
to pitch against them, or if there's a minor league
game going on on your lower field, you send the
guy down there and they'll lead off for maybe six
seven innings and get six to seven at bats. That
kind of a thing to catch up. So there's different
ways to do that, but I always worked in advance
so that everybody would knew exactly what was going on.
(22:53):
Now I touched on it the on the road thing
for guys to really accumulate that bats. You've got to
get them to buy into going on the road. I mean,
we've taken care of these guys, and I've done it.
I've done it as a manager, take care of the varsity.
Always have taken care of the varsity. So you have
to really figure that out, and you have to convince
guys that it's important that they get more at bats.
(23:13):
But if you talk to them, they'll always tell you
that they do not need those more at bats. And
this is part of the rub these days. Before it
used to be kind of dictated in a sense. Now
it's more of a you know, you get together with
the player himself and you come to a conclusion what
you think according to them. Also how many they do need.
I still of the ILK that I would say at
(23:34):
least fifty at bats sixty is a really good number
in the course of spring training. And to do that,
like I said, sometimes you might have to play on
the road. And yeah, like say, for instance, somebody struggling,
like you know, Sam and Timmy used to love to
go down to the lower fields and get ten at
bats in a minor league spring training game in order
(23:54):
to play catch up and get more at bats going
into a season. So all these things are available to them.
So again it's kind of an individual thing. You pay
ten the guy, But I like minimums place and I
think a really good strong hitting instructor is really important
here in regards to having that conversation convincing somebody that
feels like they don't have to do it, because the
(24:16):
conversation in the clubhouse is we don't have to do this,
and flip it to the point, yeah, we do have
to do this because we want off to get we
want to get off to a good start. These first
week of games, ten days of games, two weeks of
games can make all the difference by the end of
the season.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, I mean, it just strikes me anecdotally, Joe that guys,
the everyday players, they get fewer at bats in the
quote unquote mainspring training games than they did even ten
fifteen years ago. I'm not sure why that is. I
know that you know the new pitching machines they have now,
which really do simulate live pitching, so well, you get
the equivalent. It's an approximation, but a pretty dark close one,
(24:53):
the equivalent of a game at bat. I guess it's
wear and tear as well. I mean, Joona, did you
ever have pressure, either direct or indirect, that get your
MAI guys on that field, especially for a home game
that might be televised back in the home market, and
any you know, influence from the front office or players
regarding you know, how much guys should play in those games.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Not really, It's just something you did anyway, because like
I said, you would take care of the varsity at
home normally the televised games. I never I never paid
attention to that quite frankly, and I never felt that
pressure from anybody. The front office guys from when I
can remember, really never were concerned about that at all.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Well, the league used to crack down when teams didn't
bring starting players on the road. That was the rule,
but I'm sure that was really enforced, that tight line, right.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Very tightly, right facetiously, the four guys on the road trip,
it's just guys that have played in the big leagues
of the year before. You never, yes, you try to
accommodate your home fan base more than you're going to
want to accommodate the road fan base. Like I said,
I mean a lot of times a year you took
care of the varsity, had them play at home. So
you look at this schedule right from get go, and
(26:06):
you try to match it up that way, and you're right.
You see some of these road games. I was looking
at the box scores today a couple of different teams,
and my god, I haven't been there in a couple
of years, but I didn't recognize hardly any names. It
was like a triple A game. But the last point
about the you're talking about the at bats and the
ability to simulate off the field The one thing you
(26:26):
can't simulate simulate off the field is the field where
there's no batting tunnel cage. There's not an enclosure behind
you for any of those golfers out there. Just like
when you hit inside compared to outside or in a
tunnel inside versus on the field, there's a different attitude
about it. When you're inside, you're going to work on
something specifically. I think, as an example, driving the ball
(26:47):
back to the middle, which is a good thing. But
when you get on the field, when everything's wide open,
it feels completely different. So to balance that I think
is really wise or smart, and I think that's the
one thing that this stuff cannot create. I've listened. I've
been into high velocity for years. Started with the Ponza
machine at thirty three feet thirty six inches high back
(27:08):
in the mid nineteen eighties an instructional league in Arizona.
That's when I first started doing it. Figured out the
velocity we were thrown out. It would put a speed
gun back there and it was the equivalent of like
ninety three to ninety four to ninety five miles an hour,
and I wanted it at thirty six inches high off
the ground. Because I wanted the ball to ride a
little bit, and I wanted to force the shortness of
(27:29):
the swinging by keeping the barrel above the hands and
creating more of a maximum shortness as the way I
described it, to the ball kind of antithetical to what's
going on now everybody wants to lift the ball back.
Then I wanted line drives to the OPO gap as
much as we could in order to really create the
right path to the ball and creating backspin. So that
was something the Angels have been doing for your So
the point, I even had a smaller ball developed by
(27:51):
a tech, a smaller baseball like I don't even know
if like maybe half the size, but with the same weight,
and it almost when you hit it, man, it reacts
like a dang golf ball. But again, the point was
to square up a smaller target at high velocity speed,
and we are able to do that on the field.
It puts with tighter nets on the batting tunnel, the
turtle on the field, as well as the screen protecting
(28:15):
the guy feeding the machine. All this stuff we've been
in play for years and I had a hard time
selling that back in the day, trust me. But eventually
a lot of guys got into it, and I made
it even more difficult by not only by making the
guys use a heavier bat and they could not choke
up to really emphasize hand action, et cetera. So this
is nothing new. Everybody acts as though it is, and
(28:36):
I got part of the idea came from Bob Clear
because apparently Alex Johnson used to do that. He went
to I think the batting title for the Angels one
year on the last at bat of the year, on
the ground ball the third base because he could run
so much. But this stuff's been in play. Everybody acts
though it's new, but it's been in play for a bit.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah, I guess the equivalent now is a lot of
guys will get in the cage and it will spit
out foam baseballs. Say you're facing a picture like Christian
Hobvier who's got that high riding, you know, high vert
fastball top of the zone. The phone balls won't sink
as much and they'll try to assimilate that ride on
a forcing fastball top of the zone. And the benefit
(29:12):
is it doesn't blow up your hands if you catch
it off the handle. So yeah, definitely velocity is driving
this game. Hey, Joe, I have to ask you about
a topic that everybody is talking about, including my mon
senior at my local parish came up to me after
mass and had to ask me about it. So then
I figured I got to bring this up on the podcast.
(29:35):
The Yankees are allowing beards. You know, since George steinberand
brought the team in nineteen seventy three, it's been team policy,
no beards, right close cropped hair, well grew mustaches. Well, now,
since Devin Williams was traded from Milwaukee to the Yankees
and went to hell Steinbrand and said, what's up with
this beard thing? He asked the simple question like why,
And it's hard to defend. It's really impossible to defend
(29:57):
in today's world. So there's no more man of beards
by the New York Yankees. Now, you can't go all
Brandon marsh sever you're a Yankee. You just can't let
the thing grow and be unkempt. It has to be
well groomed. But give you your take. When you heard
the Yankees, the New York Yankees are allowing their players
to wear beards.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
You know, it's kind of like it's about time. Kind
of a thing. Listen, back in the day, there's different
ways to elicit discipline, and that to me, was all
about creating discipline within the group. And then somebody's perception
and he's the owner, I mean, whoever the owner is,
if he wants that, then he should get that. I
mean that was his way of creating a philosophy within
the group, kind of a businessman's mentality and a discipline,
(30:38):
and that was the way they elicited discipline for years.
I don't think it mattered as much other than you're
part of a fraternity by having to, you know, wear,
You're hearing a certain way of lack of facial hair
with the Yankees, so you know, from what I understand,
some of the guys in the past are kind of
upset by this because they had to live by it,
but these guys do not. I'm about creating discipline in
(31:02):
different ways. I think I think we should spend more
time creating discipline on the field as opposed to worrying
so much about that. I love individuality. I love the
fact that guys do look differently. I like that, you know,
some crazy hairdos. I'm okay with beards, mustaches, whatever. As
long as you play hard on the field. In regards
to dress. Dress codes was another way of eliciting discipline,
(31:23):
and for me, that's that was by the board also
because sometimes or maybe all the time, I think, if
somebody is able to dress in a manner which is
comfortable to them, we're going to get that person in
its entirety wherever he shows up, whether it's on a
team planer or on the baseball field, because he's not
concerned about more superficial items. I want my discipline on
(31:45):
the field. I want guys to respect ninety I want
them to run hard from home plate to first base.
I want them to go hard from first to third.
I want pitchers to work on their defense. I want
all the little the cutoff and relays. I want people
to be in position. That's where I want my discipline.
So I think you should spend and again I think,
you know, maybe you're spending more time on this stuff
(32:07):
that really is ancillary and not that important to winning,
whereas opposed to stuff that is we overlook because sometimes
a young coach or a manager even sometimes fails to
correct or point out mistakes on the field because they
don't want to upset the player, but they're willing to
upset them by saying you can't wear a beard, or
you have to have your hair in a certain way,
(32:29):
you have to dress a certain way. That's where the
incongruity is. To me. If you want to create discipline,
do it on the field, make corrections when you see
it necessary, demand a certain method of play from your guys.
And with that the exchange is, go ahead, dress however
you want. I don't care if you have a beard,
but I need this on the field when game time starts.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, And of course the irony is the twenty twenty
four Yankees. We're known for playing, you know, an undisciplined
brand of baseball right when it came to the fundamentals.
But they were well groomed. I feel for how steinbredder
in a way, Joe, because this obviously he was put
in place by his father, George Steinbrenner. Buy is the team.
In nineteen seventy three, George Steinbrenner went to Culver Military Academy.
(33:11):
He was a football coach at Northwestern. His background really
was in football and track, but mostly football coaching. And
it was that time, as you know this in the
seventies when you know, hair got longer, he had the
mutton chops, the long mustaches, the swing and as all
that thing. And he was trying to instill a new discipline,
(33:31):
if that's the right word, a new culture among the
New York Yankees. Let's face it, they weren't wearing anything
back in the late sixties and the early seventies, right,
So this goes back to something that Hou's father put
in for very good reasons. You know, you can disagree
with them, but he had his reasons for doing it. It
wasn't done willy nilly. He was proud of the fact
that the way the Yankees traveled and looked was different
(33:52):
than other teams. So I really, in some ways I
sympathized with hal Steinbrenner making a decision that's right for
these times. But in doing so, he really had to
say that what is fin did no longer applies in
today's world. That's not an easy place to be.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
No, that's what he knew at that time. So just
talk about the game itself. What's applied in the game
today is compared to what was applied back then. You
could talk about the revolutionary components of analytics versus old
school methods of baseball and how that's changed everything based
on who's in charge. The spoils go to the victors.
Who's in charge right now and who's sending all the
(34:31):
rules whatever, And that's what's happening regarding the way the
game is played, chasing a velocity, the three true outcomes.
All this stuff has changed over time based on that.
George Steinbrenner was in charge. That was his baby. He
gets to make the rules. That's what he saw his
way of eliciting discipline. Like you're talking about changing culture
and philosophy. So I agree with you. He's the owner,
(34:54):
he's the boss, he's the man. Yes, if I'm a
part of that team, I probably don't like it, but
I do it because this is what the person in
charge wants and I'm here to I'm an employee, so
I'm going to do what I need to do to
make this thing work and be right. So all this
there's always change. There's always change. But at the end
of the day, who's ever in charge gets to set,
(35:15):
gets to set and make the rules. I've always been
raised that way. Whether like I said, there's times they
haven't liked it. My pop never liked my long hair
growing up, right, You'd always give me a hard time
about it, but I wear my long hair anyway. But
I always respected my dad. You know, there's this different
We're all different, man. We all have different methods in
regards to what we think is the best way to
(35:36):
incorporate change and what the change may be and how
this is going to impact our future. That was mister Steinbrenner's.
He had his reasons, Like you said, I don't agree
with him, but had I been part of that group,
I would have done them.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Boy, Joe, you just brought me back to something. I
was going to start high school right, and my dad
brought me to a barbarous, old Italian barber down in Newark,
and I swore I didn't even know if they had
electricity there. It was old school is just you know,
the razor and the scissor and the comb. This again,
this is early seventies, and you know, people were wearing
(36:12):
their hair along and he brought me in there, and
to start out high school, he got me the shortest
and basically a crew cut. I was mortified going to
high school looking like that in the mid seventies. My
mother couldn't believe it. Either. But man, you just brought back.
It's not painful because I can look back and laugh
about it. But those things, man, they mattered so much
(36:32):
back then, didn't they?
Speaker 2 (36:34):
Well they did. I mean I went to my barber,
Nicki Leger, and Nikki was known to have a bottle
on the other table there. It was like this brown
bag with a bottle in it that he'd take a
couple of snips at your hair. Then he'd walk over
there and take a sip of something. So I'm in
da Harmon in ninth grade, and he absolutely took a
clump of hair out of the front like this, right
(36:54):
in the front of my hair. So if my hair
came down and bangs it all, I was like missing
like an inch of hair right across. And I had
to live with that. My mom used to put some
kind of paste on it to make the hair like,
you know, come together, almost like a hairspray. But that's
I had to go through it. But it would take
at least a what's the difference between a good haircut
and a bad haircut? What is it about? One week?
(37:15):
Maybe ten days? So I had I didn't endure that,
And that's ninth grade. Man, New girlfriend all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, I'm sure nobody noticed, right, that was.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Torture, man, absolute torture.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Hey, the game evolves, world evolves. We know that. And
when sometimes, Joe, you look back on some statistics and
the way the game was played, and you say, did
that really happen. There's someone who passed away recently, and
I look back in his numbers, and I asked those questions.
And we'll dive into that after we take a short
break on the Book of Joe. Welcome back to the
(37:58):
Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Joe.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'm not sure if you caught the news that Eddie
Fisher passed away ball relief pitcher eighty eight years old
to pitch fifteen years the Big League, six different teams.
In his nineteen sixty five season, Eddie Fisher did not
start a game, no starts. He threw one hundred and
sixty five in the third innings. He pitched in eighty
(38:21):
two games, He won fifteen games, and he saved twenty
four There's nobody in the history of baseball who without
starting a game, racked up those number of innings, wins,
and saves. I mean, it was amazing. And by the way,
he was in the same bullpen that was for the
White Sox with manager Al Lopez with Hoyite Wilhelm. Al
(38:46):
Lopez had two knuckleball pitchers in his bullpen that he
could go to eighty two games. Basically, he's throwing two
innings every appearance. Eddie Fisher as the knuckleball pitcher in
nineteen sixty five, I mean, come on, I mean, first
of all, you don't even see knuckleball pitchers anymore. I
know Matt Waldron throws one for the Padre is not
a true knuckleballer, but he does throw one that's gone away.
(39:09):
Having two in your bullpen and going to a guy
eighty two times to throw one hundred and sixty five
innings just wow.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, it was just I knew that he was a
knuckleballer as he was describing him. I forgot that Willhelm
was on that same staff. My god, they had to
have some unhappy catchers on that team. That's not easy
to do, especially in the latter part of the game,
if you have to catch guys like that. But the
knuckleball really is kind of a stress stress free pitch
to throw. We all screwed around with it on the
(39:36):
sidelines when we played catch with their buds back in
the day. Even as a high school pitcher, I used
to drop one in there once in a while. But
it takes really no, very little effort to throw it. It's
almost like an accelerated game of catch a bit, so
it doesn't surprise me that he was able to do that.
I would imagine he probably rarely ever broke eighty miles
an hour. The thing about knuckleball pitchers that I always
(39:58):
thought is that the times they had to throw a fastball,
because they normally maybe had to throw a foul just
to get a strike, it's what they did with that
fastball that really mattered. It would surprise to hit her, obviously,
but if it's I always thought it was really important
that these guys were able to just locate and throw
a fastball strike when necessary. A really good knuckleball pitcher.
(40:19):
And I don't know the makeup of his routine back then,
or Willhelm although I was a fan of both, very
aware of both. Mister al Lopez the Tampa area kind
of guy here, But I think the fact that they
were knuckleballers in that era permitted them to throw as
often as they did. I'd just be curious if there
was ever any ability to run that down. How often
(40:40):
they threw a fastball, on how hard they threw a fastball,
and again the fact that when they did throw a fastball,
it would be a strike.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Yeah, it's as I mentioned. Al Lopez was the manager
or Hall of Fame manager.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
That team won ninety five games, by the way, and
finished in second place, seven games behind the Minnesota Twins.
But here's a story from nineteen sixty four. Back then,
player reps. That was a dangerous position to have, right, Joe.
The Union was just starting out. Eddie Fisher was the
player rep. And actually, after that sixty five season where
he pitched his heart out, they traded him. The next
year Eddie Stanky was the manager. Pitched him actually three
(41:14):
times in the first five spring training games, which is crazy.
But they got rid of him midway through the next
season in part because he's a player's rep, which happened
back then. The Union was coming on strong and the
owners didn't like it. Anyway, nineteen sixty four, the White
Sox have a decent team, but they're not happy with
the press coverage. Right. They take issue with some of
(41:37):
the things the beat writers are writing. They're actually pasting
stories up on the bolton board in the clubhouse literal
bulletin board material. So one day they decide, we are
not going to talk to the press until at least
fifteen minutes goes by after the game. We're gonna make
those guys hang out outside the clubhouse stoor. That's when
you could go in right after the game. Now there
(41:58):
is a cooling off period. But fifteen minutes, well, the
manager al Lopez says, guys, you really shouldn't do this.
Can you at least get it down to ten minutes?
And the players agreed, so ten minutes they would lock
the door, not literally, but the door is locked. But
then al Lopez told his beat writers, guys, you guys
walk through the walk through the dugout to come to
(42:21):
my office. My door will be open. You can come
to my office first. I'm not sure whether the practice
to talk to the manager first started then, but how
about that the manager is taking care of their reporters
back then, saying instead of waiting outside, why don't you
guys walk through the dugout come to my office. We'll
do our interview first, and by then the ten minutes
(42:42):
will be over with. I mean it sounds like a
repudiation of his own players, but he's taking care of
the press. I gotta love that.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Isn't that what happens? Now? Did he start it? I mean,
is that how this whole thing started.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I don't know if he started it, but generally, I mean,
clubhouse opens maybe ten minutes after the game. The manager
always does talk first. But if you if you want
to skip the manager, you can just go straight to
the clubhouse if you want.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Got you, Yeah, But it seems like pretty much it's
the routine. A lot of teams right now have the
press room, Like Chicago was right across the hall from
the manager's office, which was really convenient and good. I
like the idea of permitting people to settle down a bit,
I do. I think that's a great idea. I didn't
realize that was not really a part of the fabric
(43:25):
back in the day, because since I was doing it,
pretty much was like they would always come to me
first and they would filter out into the clubhouse second.
But you have to understand that. I mean, if a
guys had a bad day, gosh, it's tough when you
get in there. If they've came and hits three home
runs to go talk to tomulus Sordo right afterwards is
not a good idea. You know, there's there's a cooling
off period that's absolutely necessary. And a lot of situations
(43:47):
it's hard you lose a tough game, or if particularly
if as a player you feel like somewhat responsible for
the team, not when you're as a manager you really felt,
you know, kind of ambivalent about a decision that you make.
You still got to like kind of filter through that
come to terms that they're just a little bit so
I like a little a little buffer in there. And
(44:08):
realizing that mister Lopez decided to do that, I think
that's pressing on his part. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
That is very cool. As you know, the manager jobs
at Joe and you're so good at this, and Joe
Torre as well, and I think Aaron Boone actually does
a good job too. You're really a buffer for your players, right,
I mean, you can make you can take the heat
off your players by setting the narrative. In that initial
press conference after the game, something happened in the game,
and and Bobby Cox was another one like this. I
(44:36):
remember Tom Glavin telling me Tom Glavin, just have a rare,
really really bad game. Nothing was working, making a lot
of mistakes, ready to wear it, and Bobby Cox would
have the reporters in his office first as customary, and
Cox would basically say Tom Glavin was great, he was
just unlucky, like he watched a completely different game. He's
(44:56):
just taking care of his guy. But now you establish
a narrative with the media and they follow up with
Glavin and they say, well, I guess you were a
little unlucky. Some calls didn't go your ways and bounces.
It's such a I don't want to say it's a gift,
but it is kind of a skill for managers, isn't
it to really set the narrative. And I'm not saying
you can control it, but you know, at least you
(45:19):
can put a word out there and drive where the
discussions are going.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
One hundred percent. I mean, I always thought that every
press conference I had was kind of a team meeting
because I wasn't really into team meeting. So I knew,
for the most part, players are going to read or
somebody's going to read and tell them about or they'll
catch a clip on television at some point of you speaking.
So if you want to get a point across. I
always try to get it across in a positive way
(45:45):
and always shine a positive light on the player. If
I had something on a negative issue with the with
the player, I would get him privately. Early on in
my managerial career, somebody spoke those words to me praise publicly,
criticized privately. Woof did that stick with me so? Well? Yes,
(46:05):
you know you tell you tell the press. I always
wanted to be on another thing was absolutely honest with
the press, and sometimes being honest would just be like
I would tell listen, I really can't tell you everything,
or I can't I really can't answer that question right now,
but I would be honest about it because you don't
want to lead them in the wrong direction. Ever. So
that was big for me and part of the what
(46:26):
people don't understand, like post games, something may have happened
in injury wise, or something may have happened where you
might be making a move, and a lot of times
the front office will generate like the first part of
this news conference to you by advising you how you
want they want you to frame this going forward, so
that you don't part of it's good because you want
to be on the same path message wise, so you
(46:49):
don't want to be disputing one another's message, so that
that's also part of this, and I think that's good
because when it comes down to like situations where really
can be impactful to a player is psyche or maybe
his near future, you definitely want to be on the
same page with that. So there's warrant to this. Then
people understand. I do agree with that. I do agree
(47:09):
with the messaging being consistent, but I also agree with
the message being honest and straightforward. So sometimes I was
at odds with front offices because they would want to
dissemble a bit, and I didn't want to dissemble. I
wanted to go Jack Ryan. I always wanted to tell
you exactly what I got here. But if I can't
tell you exactly what I got, I would tell you
that I can't, and that would be one of the
(47:29):
first things I would say to the group as they
came in. But yes, you're always as a manager, you're
always there to protect your brood.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Well, here at the Book of Joe, you are are
Jack Ryan. You're also our Eddie Fisher where I hand
you a ball to close it out and you go long.
You're not just a three out guy. So I know
you always bring us words of wisdom. What do you
have this time to close out this edition of the
Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, I mean, I'm just like you brought it up
earlier in a different way of talking about change, whether
it's the Yankees changing their thoughts on their hair policy,
the changes in the game regarding rule changes, the fact
that pictures come out throwing heat from the very first
spring training game as opposed to guys working their way
(48:16):
in the shapes. And I just got a bunch of
stuff here that I was all about. The word change,
and that's what we're basically talking about here. So I
was like a lot. I had a lot going on
this morning thinking about all this. But you know, part
of it is adapt adaptation. Intelligence is the ability to
adapt to change. Again, because I just talked about Listen,
(48:38):
I wouldn't like the idea of having to cut my hair,
but I would have done it. Colin Powell. A great
line from Colin Powell to regarding how we advised the president.
I give him my best advice, and then I give
him my strongest loyalty. Change adaptation the ability to I
don't want to say play along, but be a team player.
(48:59):
So at the end of the day, let me see
if I could just sum this all up. If you
don't like something, change, If you can't change it, change
your attitude. And I talk to myself about that all
the time too, you know, because I do. I do
get passionate about subjects that I believe are wrong and appropriate.
(49:19):
I like my thoughts better. But at the end of
the day, sometimes you just have to, you know, work
your thoughts at the point where you don't give up
on your your philosophies and what you believe in. But
at some point you have to morph it a little
bit to fit into this group and make it better.
So if you don't like something, change it. If you
(49:40):
can't change it, change your attitude. And at the end
of the day, attitude is a decision. Listen. I could
go on and on about this stuff, but that's it.
They're all interchangeable. Regarding what we talked about today.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Yeah, that's a great reminder, because let's face it, it's
human nature to resist change, right, we don't like change.
The easy thing to do is always to stay the
course and not to change. And yet we just spent
most of this episode talking about change and adaptability. Super important,
absolutely good stuff. Job. We'll see you next time on
the Book of Joe.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
Thanks Tommy, you will.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
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