January 9, 2025 • 25 mins
Whitney Wolfe Herd, the visionary founder of Bumble and co-founder of Tinder, gives her single biggest piece of advice on how to make your profile stand out and discusses her groundbreaking work in reshaping the world of online dating. Whitney opens up about the cultural shift she helped sparked by letting women make the first move, the personal challenges she faced after leaving Tinder, and how she turned adversity into a mission to empower others.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, fam, Hello Sunshine. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
On the bright Side, you're gonna want to swipe right
on this conversation because we're joined by the founder and
executive chair of the wildly popular dating app Bumble.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
She's also the founder of Tinder.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Whitney wolf Heard is here and she's talking about adapting
dating apps for the future, and she's giving you insider
tips on everything you need to know to create the
perfect dating profile. It's Thursday, January ninth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
For over ten years, our guest today has had her
finger on the pulse of online dating and honestly, she's
played stupid for many millennials. Whitney wolf Heard is the
founder of dating apps Tinder and Bumble. Now I've dabbled
in dating apps. You all know that, but it can
be kind of overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay, tell me everything, because I've never really been on
dating apps. Like, I got married before the dating apps
came out. So what is it like on there?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It is the wild wild West, Simon.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now listen, I know a lot of people have had
a lot of success on apps. I personally am such
an in person person that it's tough for me. It's
hard for me to like read energy via the phone.
I also am not a great texter, Like texting overwhelms me.
I just don't love being on my phone, and so
dating apps feel like an extension of more texting, more
(01:28):
pen pals, and I just I don't know, it's never
been my thing.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So how far have you gotten with the dating app? Like,
have you you've gone on dates?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm sure?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah? Has anything more come of it?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Like how promising was it?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I met one of my ex boyfriends on a dating
app and we dated for two years. But we did
have mutual friends who also like outside of the app
put us together.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So I don't know, it's just kind of hard.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think when you meet someone out of nowhere, I
don't know, maybe I have trust issues, But listen, I
think dating apps are an amazing technology if you can
use them right and they don't overwhelm you. And I'm
always curious about what makes a good profile and what
dating trends are out there and what the research says
(02:17):
about the people using these apps.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, our guest today can lend so much insight into
this conversation. Absolutely Whitney wolf Heard is literally the woman
who came up with the name for Tinder and Bumble's
signature concept the company that she founded after co founding Tinder,
and she's the one who came up with this philosophy
(02:41):
of allowing women to make the first move, which was huge.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Simone, it was revolutionary at the time. I know, in
twenty twenty five, we don't even think twice. But when
she came out with that idea of women making the
first move, I actually think it was so much deeper
culturally because women have been going after everything they want.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We go after the jobs we want, we go.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
After everything, and for some reason, we were still taking
a backseat in romantic partnership. And I think that Bumble
was on the very cusp of women going after romantic partnership,
of saying hello first, of making the first move, And
to me, that is what I've always been just enamored by.
(03:25):
With Whitney, I think she's the master of understanding what
users want and where culture is going. Well.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It also shows just how vast this male default setting
is in our society, like the fact that all the
dating apps before Bumble, it was always the man making
the first move right, and how much does that reflect
what happens in our world every single day, Like the
default is always male, and it's always to accommodate men.
(03:54):
So it's just a reminder of like how much of
our world is oriented around men and their desires.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well said, And I also think that part of it
was inspired by Whitney's own experience.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh yeah, I mean in twenty fourteen, this was before
the height of the Me too movement, Whitney left Tinder,
which was the company that she helped found, and she
sued the founders for sexual harassment, and at the time
she faced a lot of criticism in the public eye.
But I mean just a true lesson in resilience here.
(04:31):
She went on to found Bumble that same year.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Okay, I think we have to actually break that down
for a second, because that part was super deep. I
remember being in college when Tinder was founded, and it
was all over our college campus at Madison, Wisconsin. There
were kids who were like Tinder reps. They had Tinder
backpacks and Tinder water bottles and they were trying to
(04:55):
get everybody to sign up. My friend Chloe was one
of these reps, okay, and she was from La and
these founders were from la and when all of this
went down, because Whitney was dating one of the founders,
she happened to be dating one of them, and when
all of this went down, they besmirched her publicly. I
(05:15):
can't even imagine what she was going through privately, because
the public.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Ridicule was awful.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I remember thinking to myself, like, this is so brutal,
the names, the sexist, misogynistic names they were calling her,
and everyone thought that she would never work again, and
she was so young at the time. And then she
started Bumble and it became more successful than Tinder, and
so her story was so inspiring to me because the
(05:44):
misogyny ran so deep, and yet she proved everybody wrong
and everyone thought, ooh, maybe she was the brains of
the operation at Tinder more than everybody thought. I'm just
I'm really inspired by her resilience.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
She is such an inspiring entrepreneur, and I'm really curious
to hear her thoughts on the dating landscape today because
I know that they've been working on some groundbreaking research
over at Bumble on the state of modern relationships and dating.
So let's go ahead and get into it. Whitney Wolford,
Welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Thanks for having me, Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Whitney, Bumble was really centered around this idea that women
would make the first move, which was so revolutionary at
the time.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Why was that important to you?
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I really felt that we've all been raised with very
ingrained gender dynamics around connection and love, for women to
never go first in love, to always wait and to
be chased and to be pursued. And yet this conflicted
(06:48):
with what we were being told to do in the
rest of our lives. To your point, which was go
out there, make the life of your dreams, make the
first move in these other areas of your life, be successful.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Be independent.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
But when it came to love, which is actually the
center of our lives, whether it's romantic love or platonic love,
we're meant to play this entirely different role. And I
really felt like it all started at hello, Like who
is given permission culturally to go first? That was really
where Bumble started, was really giving women an agency to
(07:26):
go first in their relationships and connections. And so for me,
when I reflect on my career, on my life with
my family, even on my health, like had I not
made those first moves, I wouldn't have the life I
have today, and so many of us are just told
to wait for things to fall into our laps, and
(07:47):
that's just not the way the universe works.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Whitney.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I've been following your story since you helped start Tinder
in twenty twelve, and I know you went through a
really difficult period after you left the company. You ended
up sue Tinder for sexual harassment and discrimination, and you
face a lot of very public scrutiny because of it,
like very public scrutiny, But the end of your story
(08:10):
at Tinder became the beginning of your story at Bumble,
and I'm curious what the catalyst moment was for you
that turned all that doubt and anger into such resilience,
and I think that we see that resilience as a
through line in your story today.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I would say that there was a very pivotal moment
and I remember it extremely clearly, even to this day.
So when I left Tinder, this is twenty fourteen, so
pre me too, This is pre times up. Yeah, this
is free, this open conversation around online abuse, and Whitney,
(08:46):
to your point, I don't want to interrupt you, but
I do think that part is so important because a
lot of women that came out against men pre me too,
were really seen as the problem, and so I think
that adds like a whole layer of resilience to your story.
It was extremely scary because I was sort of ostracized,
(09:10):
And when I say ostracized, I don't mean just by
the people involved, like even people I went to college with.
You know, they were judging me and assuming that I was,
you know, some vixen.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
And I was in a complete state of depression. I was.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
You have to remember I was twenty four years old,
which in hindsight is like a baby.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Right baby.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
There was all sorts of terrible articles being written about me,
speculating about what my motives were and what my agenda was.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
The Internet was calling me terrible names.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
I was getting death threats, and I couldn't turn it off,
like I was addicted to refreshing the like the dms
and the tweets. I had literally what they describe as
an epiphany, like I don't even think it was me.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
It was like something.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Came through me and it all just in a matter
of moments made sense. I was like, oh my god,
if this is what's happening to me at twenty four.
This is happening at scale, and not just women, everyone.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
This is so dangerous if.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I'm feeling the feelings I'm feeling, and I'm in a
safe home and I have at the time a loving boyfriend,
and I have family that cares about me. Like, what
is the thirteen year old going through who cannot escape
bullying once she'd leave school? And I had this moment
where I said, oh my god, when I was getting
bullied in elementary school, my mom would pick me up,
we'd get an ice cream cone, and I was safe
(10:34):
until the next day. Right, But this was like a
permanent playground of hell for everyone. And so I just
had this moment where I was like, I'm going to
solve this. I'm going to start the world's first positive
social network.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I called it mayor Cy.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I designed this entire currency of compliments, and I figured,
if we could get away from shaming one another to
celebrating one another and supporting one another, perhaps we could
use like digital behavior for good. And that was really
like the very early early moment of what would then
lead to the next step, to the next step, to
(11:11):
the next step that would eventually become bumble.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I'm curious how you pulled yourself out of that state
of mind where you were dealing with just the relentless
onslot of negativity and toxicity. How did you get from
that state of despair into that energizing place of I
have an idea.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Well, when you're on the bottom, there's nowhere else to
go but up.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
And I had hit the bottom, and I actually think
there's a gift in hitting the bottom. At this point,
my dignity had been stripped from me. What else did
I have to lose? Like my greatest fear how to
already come true? You know how they say people have
these like nightmares when they're young, about like being naked
in the hallways in high school. I was that, but
(11:54):
on the global stage. So it's like, what else did
I have to lose? And I just thought about these
thirteen year old girls around the world, and I was like,
I'm going to do this for them if I have
the talent and the skills and the experience in the
tech industry. I felt like it was my duty to
serve in a way that could prevent another woman from
(12:18):
feeling what I had felt. So I just took myself
out of it and was like, this is for the collective,
this is no longer about me.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
We've got to take a quick break out, but we'll
be right back with Whitney. Wolf Heard, And we're back
with Whitney. Wel heard, Whitney.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think one of the things that I feel taken
with in how you've built your company is how you've
stayed so true to who you are as a founder
throughout these last ten years, and the company stands for
so much more than just just love, which are important
on its own. I'll never forget the New York Times
(13:06):
ad that Bumble took out. It was a full page
ad in support of victims of sexual assault. I'm curious how,
in these ten years, when the company has gotten so big,
how you've managed to scale kindness and scale agency and
scale all of these ideals with it.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Well, I really appreciate that, and I'll be honest, we
are certainly not perfect. But I'll use I guess a
metaphor and or analogy however you want to look at
this directionally, our compass has always been pointed in the
direction of kindness, compassion, inspiration, trying to stand up for
(13:46):
the underdog, and that's where the.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Direction has always been pointed.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
You don't have to control everything that happens every single day,
but you have to remember where you're going and why.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
You're doing it.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
I think intention is the most important thing in the world.
And if you set the intention and you try to
remain rooted in that intention, no matter how rough or
rocky things get, like you kind of always come back
to center. That's how you survive, and that's how you
keep the DNA alive. And also the faith because being
(14:22):
part of a rep like with no faith and no hope,
you've got nothing because you're actually writing on it ninety
percent of the time.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
That's literally what it's all about.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Can you give us an example of when hope got
you through? Is there a story that comes to mind?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Every day? Literally every single day.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Being an entrepreneur is like this funny blend of like
belief and like kind of closing your eyes and jumping
and just like hoping for the best because you have
to have this psychotic belief in what you're doing. I
have just had this unbelievable obsessive belief, like true belief,
not fake belief, like genuine belief, like a knowing in
(15:09):
my soul that Bumble is going to outlive me. This mission,
this purpose, this company is so much bigger than me.
And I don't even know why I feel that way,
just feel it, and I think you have to be
borderline crazy in your belief.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Well, Whitney, we have been digging into the research that
you're conducting over at Bumble, all about dating and relationships
in the modern age, and we wanted to ask you
about some of the studies we came across, starting with
a survey that found that a third of women said
emotional intimacy was more important than sex. That's so fascinating.
What do you make of that?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
As we have become so connected online, we have actually
become very disconnected from both ourselves and others. And it's
this fascinating conundrum because we are arguably the most connected
we've ever been, whether that means being able to get
your groceries or talk to people across the world or
(16:07):
be in one hundred group chats at once, but we're
actually the most disconnected we've ever been. And I think
as humans, we are craving emotional nourishment, like real nourishment,
not just empty calories. And so this comes back to
this quest and desire for real emotional intimacy. But I
(16:28):
don't think you can get emotional intimacy from another person
until you understand what your actual needs are, like what
do you need to be emotionally intimate?
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Who are you? What are you missing? Where are you fulfilled?
Speaker 5 (16:42):
And this is what's been missing from dating on the
internet for so long. It's like we've all been saying
like me, like me back, We've all forgotten to say,
like who am I and what do I actually need?
So I think that's the next decade of this entire equation.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I'm so excited to hear you say that.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
My entire ethos as an interviewer is that we are
in this high communication, low connection world in twenty twenty four,
and I think we're seeing that trend so much with
gen Z. Forbes Health survey said that seventy nine percent
of gen Z feels fatigued by dating apps. And You've
always been on the forefront of technology and trends. I'm
(17:25):
so curious how bumble is adapting to this burnout of
dating apps.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So I think, you know, in order to really be
the leader in love and dating for gen Z in
this next generation, there is going to have to be
this like complete both evolution and kind of revolution of
self love and self discovered. I think we're moving out
of an era of judgment and low self esteem online,
(17:54):
which when you think about what we did with this wife,
you went from these like e harmonies of the world
where you had to fill out out you hours of
paperwork and the go robust to just like, oh my gosh,
this is great.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
We're in a digital bar like yes, no, yes, no, woo.
I think it's coming next.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
If my spiding sense is right, my intuition around products
is right, is like a hybrid of what we just
lived through the last couple decades of online love, where
it's not just this platform of quick judgment. Rather, we're
going to move into curiosity. How do we get you
to be curious by yourself, to ask the right questions
(18:33):
about yourself, And then how do we actually inspire you
to be more curious about others and give people a chance,
because curiosity is what will actually lead to true connection.
And then confidence, right like, how do we make you
really both feel confident in yourself but also in the journey.
Those are probably the two key pillars for how we
(18:54):
reinvent this for the next generation.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And in thinking about the future of connect I can't
help but think during this conversation, how does AI change
the way we date?
Speaker 5 (19:06):
I actually think AI is sensational for dating candidly because
AI can take.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
A lot of the work out of sorting.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I do think right now, it's, you know, kind of
like online shopping, Like why do you need to scroll
through three thousand red dresses to find the three that
would actually work for you? Why wouldn't we use AI
to supercharge understanding compatibility and then help deliver you people
that are like deeply compatible and relevant to you so
(19:37):
that you can actually make, you know, use out of
your most valuable asset on Earth, which is your time.
And I actually think AI helps us tremendously just better
match you, like helps you build better profiles, and it
just gets you to these real connections quicker, better, faster, safer.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
It's time for an other quick break, but don't go away.
We'll be right back with Whitney Wolf. Heard. We're back
with Whitney Wolf Heard.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I'd love to hear more about the secret to creating
a dating profile that you can feel confident in. And
it feels like we have this incredible resource here in you,
and we'd be remiss not to ask you what is
the secret to creating a perfect dating profile.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I think the secret is really going to sound cheesy,
and you're gonna be like, of course she said that,
but you really have to be yourself like that is
the secret. There's only one you, and I mean that
so sincerely. I run a product with you know, tens
of millions of people, if not more, and there's only
(20:49):
one you. So don't try to blend in. Try to
stand out. And so by standing out, that is by
asking yourself like, what is unique to me? Where do
I feel most alive in my life photos? Where do
I feel like, oh that is so me? And then
really express yourself. If you're funny, like showcase that, if
you are hyper intellectual, showcase that. Do not be shy,
(21:12):
and do not build a profile in fear of what
someone will think of you, because the ultimate outcome here
is that you find someone that sees you for you
and you can be yourself with And so if you
don't present yourself as your true self, you won't connect
that way. So I would say, just like, be so
uniquely you, and it will attract the people that are
(21:35):
meant for you.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
My worst ones were also me not knowing myself.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
You're so right, and I think that you will see
this be one of the most important pillars of this
business in the future. I think that's been the missing
link in dating this entire time. I think that's pretty revolutionary.
I agree with you now that you are sort of
released from the burden of day in and day out
(22:01):
CEO ship. I've heard you say that you're really excited
to be an ideas person again. Is there anything that
you're comfortable sharing with in terms of what you are creating,
what you want to put forth into the world via
bumble or elsewhere. I'm really focused on these macro cultural
themes and integrating them into our vision as a company.
(22:24):
How do we actually help people get to know themselves
so that they can really express themselves in a way
that's more authentic and then attract people that will appreciate
them for them And people don't need to fall in
love in a pretend version of themselves. It is just
like the inevitable, it's going to fall apart and collapse, right,
So how do we actually prevent bad relationships from ever
(22:47):
happening thematically. I've been spending the bulk of my time
on self discovery, self love. That's really where I spend
ninety nine percent of my energy right now.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Gen Z is so focused on self love. So it's
how we save the planet. Candidly, like, if we all
learn to love ourselves a little bit more in ten, twenty, thirty,
fifty years from not like, we.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Will be a better place for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So I think some people just have these strong natural
instincts that help them pick up on things with culture.
And then on the other hand, some people have these
very particular external resources that help them get a finger
on the pulse of the world around them. Are there
ways in which you receive these sort of downloads or
information about what's going on in culture at large? Is
(23:32):
it from reading? Is it from talking to people? What
is it for you? You know?
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Since I was a kid, I just get these downloads.
I just feel things. I don't know what you call it.
I just get these like knowings. I went through a
harrowing teenage relationship that took me to my like depths
of hell, and I just as an innocent young girl,
(23:59):
I just could not even imagine that that could happen
to someone, and so I just think I wake up
every day saying like I am going to just like
make sure that whoever the sixteen year old Whitney out
there never goes through that again. And I just like
feel it. I don't know, that's just how my brain works.
I love to meditate. I meditate every single day. It's
like the only way I can function. And I don't know,
(24:22):
I just try to connect inward to something bigger, whatever
you want to call that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think your career it's so obvious to me that
it's this feeling and this knowing when I look at
your career.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
That's really kind and I really appreciate you guys asking
all these amazing questions.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's been really fun. Thanks for saying that. Whitney, Thank you,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Whitney will have heard as the founder and executive chair
of Bumble.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media. Hello Sunshine on Instagram and
at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and feel
free to tag us at Simone Voice and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
See you tomorrow, folks, keep looking on the bright side.
Hey, fam, Hello Sunshine. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
On the bright Side, you're gonna want to swipe right
on this conversation because we're joined by the founder and
executive chair of the wildly popular dating app Bumble.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
She's also the founder of Tinder.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Whitney wolf Heard is here and she's talking about adapting
dating apps for the future, and she's giving you insider
tips on everything you need to know to create the
perfect dating profile. It's Thursday, January ninth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
And I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side
from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
For over ten years, our guest today has had her
finger on the pulse of online dating and honestly, she's
played stupid for many millennials. Whitney wolf Heard is the
founder of dating apps Tinder and Bumble. Now I've dabbled
in dating apps. You all know that, but it can
be kind of overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay, tell me everything, because I've never really been on
dating apps. Like, I got married before the dating apps
came out. So what is it like on there?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It is the wild wild West, Simon.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Now listen, I know a lot of people have had
a lot of success on apps. I personally am such
an in person person that it's tough for me. It's
hard for me to like read energy via the phone.
I also am not a great texter, Like texting overwhelms me.
I just don't love being on my phone, and so
dating apps feel like an extension of more texting, more
(01:28):
pen pals, and I just I don't know, it's never
been my thing.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So how far have you gotten with the dating app? Like,
have you you've gone on dates?
Speaker 1 (01:39):
I'm sure?
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Yeah? Has anything more come of it?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Like how promising was it?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I met one of my ex boyfriends on a dating
app and we dated for two years. But we did
have mutual friends who also like outside of the app
put us together.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
So I don't know, it's just kind of hard.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I think when you meet someone out of nowhere, I
don't know, maybe I have trust issues, But listen, I
think dating apps are an amazing technology if you can
use them right and they don't overwhelm you. And I'm
always curious about what makes a good profile and what
dating trends are out there and what the research says
(02:17):
about the people using these apps.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Well, our guest today can lend so much insight into
this conversation. Absolutely Whitney wolf Heard is literally the woman
who came up with the name for Tinder and Bumble's
signature concept the company that she founded after co founding Tinder,
and she's the one who came up with this philosophy
(02:41):
of allowing women to make the first move, which was huge.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Simone, it was revolutionary at the time. I know, in
twenty twenty five, we don't even think twice. But when
she came out with that idea of women making the
first move, I actually think it was so much deeper
culturally because women have been going after everything they want.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
We go after the jobs we want, we go.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
After everything, and for some reason, we were still taking
a backseat in romantic partnership. And I think that Bumble
was on the very cusp of women going after romantic partnership,
of saying hello first, of making the first move, And
to me, that is what I've always been just enamored by.
(03:25):
With Whitney, I think she's the master of understanding what
users want and where culture is going. Well.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
It also shows just how vast this male default setting
is in our society, like the fact that all the
dating apps before Bumble, it was always the man making
the first move right, and how much does that reflect
what happens in our world every single day, Like the
default is always male, and it's always to accommodate men.
(03:54):
So it's just a reminder of like how much of
our world is oriented around men and their desires.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well said, And I also think that part of it
was inspired by Whitney's own experience.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Oh yeah, I mean in twenty fourteen, this was before
the height of the Me too movement, Whitney left Tinder,
which was the company that she helped found, and she
sued the founders for sexual harassment, and at the time
she faced a lot of criticism in the public eye.
But I mean just a true lesson in resilience here.
(04:31):
She went on to found Bumble that same year.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Okay, I think we have to actually break that down
for a second, because that part was super deep. I
remember being in college when Tinder was founded, and it
was all over our college campus at Madison, Wisconsin. There
were kids who were like Tinder reps. They had Tinder
backpacks and Tinder water bottles and they were trying to
(04:55):
get everybody to sign up. My friend Chloe was one
of these reps, okay, and she was from La and
these founders were from la and when all of this
went down, because Whitney was dating one of the founders,
she happened to be dating one of them, and when
all of this went down, they besmirched her publicly. I
(05:15):
can't even imagine what she was going through privately, because
the public.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Ridicule was awful.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
I remember thinking to myself, like, this is so brutal,
the names, the sexist, misogynistic names they were calling her,
and everyone thought that she would never work again, and
she was so young at the time. And then she
started Bumble and it became more successful than Tinder, and
so her story was so inspiring to me because the
(05:44):
misogyny ran so deep, and yet she proved everybody wrong
and everyone thought, ooh, maybe she was the brains of
the operation at Tinder more than everybody thought. I'm just
I'm really inspired by her resilience.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
She is such an inspiring entrepreneur, and I'm really curious
to hear her thoughts on the dating landscape today because
I know that they've been working on some groundbreaking research
over at Bumble on the state of modern relationships and dating.
So let's go ahead and get into it. Whitney Wolford,
Welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Thanks for having me, Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
Whitney, Bumble was really centered around this idea that women
would make the first move, which was so revolutionary at
the time.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Why was that important to you?
Speaker 5 (06:28):
I really felt that we've all been raised with very
ingrained gender dynamics around connection and love, for women to
never go first in love, to always wait and to
be chased and to be pursued. And yet this conflicted
(06:48):
with what we were being told to do in the
rest of our lives. To your point, which was go
out there, make the life of your dreams, make the
first move in these other areas of your life, be successful.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Be independent.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
But when it came to love, which is actually the
center of our lives, whether it's romantic love or platonic love,
we're meant to play this entirely different role. And I
really felt like it all started at hello, Like who
is given permission culturally to go first? That was really
where Bumble started, was really giving women an agency to
(07:26):
go first in their relationships and connections. And so for me,
when I reflect on my career, on my life with
my family, even on my health, like had I not
made those first moves, I wouldn't have the life I
have today, and so many of us are just told
to wait for things to fall into our laps, and
(07:47):
that's just not the way the universe works.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Whitney.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I've been following your story since you helped start Tinder
in twenty twelve, and I know you went through a
really difficult period after you left the company. You ended
up sue Tinder for sexual harassment and discrimination, and you
face a lot of very public scrutiny because of it,
like very public scrutiny, But the end of your story
(08:10):
at Tinder became the beginning of your story at Bumble,
and I'm curious what the catalyst moment was for you
that turned all that doubt and anger into such resilience,
and I think that we see that resilience as a
through line in your story today.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I would say that there was a very pivotal moment
and I remember it extremely clearly, even to this day.
So when I left Tinder, this is twenty fourteen, so
pre me too, This is pre times up. Yeah, this
is free, this open conversation around online abuse, and Whitney,
(08:46):
to your point, I don't want to interrupt you, but
I do think that part is so important because a
lot of women that came out against men pre me too,
were really seen as the problem, and so I think
that adds like a whole layer of resilience to your story.
It was extremely scary because I was sort of ostracized,
(09:10):
And when I say ostracized, I don't mean just by
the people involved, like even people I went to college with.
You know, they were judging me and assuming that I was,
you know, some vixen.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
And I was in a complete state of depression. I was.
Speaker 5 (09:26):
You have to remember I was twenty four years old,
which in hindsight is like a baby.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Right baby.
Speaker 5 (09:33):
There was all sorts of terrible articles being written about me,
speculating about what my motives were and what my agenda was.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
The Internet was calling me terrible names.
Speaker 5 (09:42):
I was getting death threats, and I couldn't turn it off,
like I was addicted to refreshing the like the dms
and the tweets. I had literally what they describe as
an epiphany, like I don't even think it was me.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
It was like something.
Speaker 5 (09:57):
Came through me and it all just in a matter
of moments made sense. I was like, oh my god,
if this is what's happening to me at twenty four.
This is happening at scale, and not just women, everyone.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
This is so dangerous if.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
I'm feeling the feelings I'm feeling, and I'm in a
safe home and I have at the time a loving boyfriend,
and I have family that cares about me. Like, what
is the thirteen year old going through who cannot escape
bullying once she'd leave school? And I had this moment
where I said, oh my god, when I was getting
bullied in elementary school, my mom would pick me up,
we'd get an ice cream cone, and I was safe
(10:34):
until the next day. Right, But this was like a
permanent playground of hell for everyone. And so I just
had this moment where I was like, I'm going to
solve this. I'm going to start the world's first positive
social network.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
I called it mayor Cy.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
I designed this entire currency of compliments, and I figured,
if we could get away from shaming one another to
celebrating one another and supporting one another, perhaps we could
use like digital behavior for good. And that was really
like the very early early moment of what would then
lead to the next step, to the next step, to
(11:11):
the next step that would eventually become bumble.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I'm curious how you pulled yourself out of that state
of mind where you were dealing with just the relentless
onslot of negativity and toxicity. How did you get from
that state of despair into that energizing place of I
have an idea.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Well, when you're on the bottom, there's nowhere else to
go but up.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
And I had hit the bottom, and I actually think
there's a gift in hitting the bottom. At this point,
my dignity had been stripped from me. What else did
I have to lose? Like my greatest fear how to
already come true? You know how they say people have
these like nightmares when they're young, about like being naked
in the hallways in high school. I was that, but
(11:54):
on the global stage. So it's like, what else did
I have to lose? And I just thought about these
thirteen year old girls around the world, and I was like,
I'm going to do this for them if I have
the talent and the skills and the experience in the
tech industry. I felt like it was my duty to
serve in a way that could prevent another woman from
(12:18):
feeling what I had felt. So I just took myself
out of it and was like, this is for the collective,
this is no longer about me.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
We've got to take a quick break out, but we'll
be right back with Whitney. Wolf Heard, And we're back
with Whitney. Wel heard, Whitney.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I think one of the things that I feel taken
with in how you've built your company is how you've
stayed so true to who you are as a founder
throughout these last ten years, and the company stands for
so much more than just just love, which are important
on its own. I'll never forget the New York Times
(13:06):
ad that Bumble took out. It was a full page
ad in support of victims of sexual assault. I'm curious how,
in these ten years, when the company has gotten so big,
how you've managed to scale kindness and scale agency and
scale all of these ideals with it.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Well, I really appreciate that, and I'll be honest, we
are certainly not perfect. But I'll use I guess a
metaphor and or analogy however you want to look at
this directionally, our compass has always been pointed in the
direction of kindness, compassion, inspiration, trying to stand up for
(13:46):
the underdog, and that's where the.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Direction has always been pointed.
Speaker 5 (13:52):
You don't have to control everything that happens every single day,
but you have to remember where you're going and why.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
You're doing it.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
I think intention is the most important thing in the world.
And if you set the intention and you try to
remain rooted in that intention, no matter how rough or
rocky things get, like you kind of always come back
to center. That's how you survive, and that's how you
keep the DNA alive. And also the faith because being
(14:22):
part of a rep like with no faith and no hope,
you've got nothing because you're actually writing on it ninety
percent of the time.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
That's literally what it's all about.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
Can you give us an example of when hope got
you through? Is there a story that comes to mind?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Every day? Literally every single day.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
Being an entrepreneur is like this funny blend of like
belief and like kind of closing your eyes and jumping
and just like hoping for the best because you have
to have this psychotic belief in what you're doing. I
have just had this unbelievable obsessive belief, like true belief,
not fake belief, like genuine belief, like a knowing in
(15:09):
my soul that Bumble is going to outlive me. This mission,
this purpose, this company is so much bigger than me.
And I don't even know why I feel that way,
just feel it, and I think you have to be
borderline crazy in your belief.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Well, Whitney, we have been digging into the research that
you're conducting over at Bumble, all about dating and relationships
in the modern age, and we wanted to ask you
about some of the studies we came across, starting with
a survey that found that a third of women said
emotional intimacy was more important than sex. That's so fascinating.
What do you make of that?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
As we have become so connected online, we have actually
become very disconnected from both ourselves and others. And it's
this fascinating conundrum because we are arguably the most connected
we've ever been, whether that means being able to get
your groceries or talk to people across the world or
(16:07):
be in one hundred group chats at once, but we're
actually the most disconnected we've ever been. And I think
as humans, we are craving emotional nourishment, like real nourishment,
not just empty calories. And so this comes back to
this quest and desire for real emotional intimacy. But I
(16:28):
don't think you can get emotional intimacy from another person
until you understand what your actual needs are, like what
do you need to be emotionally intimate?
Speaker 4 (16:39):
Who are you? What are you missing? Where are you fulfilled?
Speaker 5 (16:42):
And this is what's been missing from dating on the
internet for so long. It's like we've all been saying
like me, like me back, We've all forgotten to say,
like who am I and what do I actually need?
So I think that's the next decade of this entire equation.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I'm so excited to hear you say that.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
My entire ethos as an interviewer is that we are
in this high communication, low connection world in twenty twenty four,
and I think we're seeing that trend so much with
gen Z. Forbes Health survey said that seventy nine percent
of gen Z feels fatigued by dating apps. And You've
always been on the forefront of technology and trends. I'm
(17:25):
so curious how bumble is adapting to this burnout of
dating apps.
Speaker 5 (17:31):
So I think, you know, in order to really be
the leader in love and dating for gen Z in
this next generation, there is going to have to be
this like complete both evolution and kind of revolution of
self love and self discovered. I think we're moving out
of an era of judgment and low self esteem online,
(17:54):
which when you think about what we did with this wife,
you went from these like e harmonies of the world
where you had to fill out out you hours of
paperwork and the go robust to just like, oh my gosh,
this is great.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
We're in a digital bar like yes, no, yes, no, woo.
I think it's coming next.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
If my spiding sense is right, my intuition around products
is right, is like a hybrid of what we just
lived through the last couple decades of online love, where
it's not just this platform of quick judgment. Rather, we're
going to move into curiosity. How do we get you
to be curious by yourself, to ask the right questions
(18:33):
about yourself, And then how do we actually inspire you
to be more curious about others and give people a chance,
because curiosity is what will actually lead to true connection.
And then confidence, right like, how do we make you
really both feel confident in yourself but also in the journey.
Those are probably the two key pillars for how we
(18:54):
reinvent this for the next generation.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
And in thinking about the future of connect I can't
help but think during this conversation, how does AI change
the way we date?
Speaker 5 (19:06):
I actually think AI is sensational for dating candidly because
AI can take.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
A lot of the work out of sorting.
Speaker 5 (19:15):
I do think right now, it's, you know, kind of
like online shopping, Like why do you need to scroll
through three thousand red dresses to find the three that
would actually work for you? Why wouldn't we use AI
to supercharge understanding compatibility and then help deliver you people
that are like deeply compatible and relevant to you so
(19:37):
that you can actually make, you know, use out of
your most valuable asset on Earth, which is your time.
And I actually think AI helps us tremendously just better
match you, like helps you build better profiles, and it
just gets you to these real connections quicker, better, faster, safer.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
It's time for an other quick break, but don't go away.
We'll be right back with Whitney Wolf. Heard. We're back
with Whitney Wolf Heard.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I'd love to hear more about the secret to creating
a dating profile that you can feel confident in. And
it feels like we have this incredible resource here in you,
and we'd be remiss not to ask you what is
the secret to creating a perfect dating profile.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
I think the secret is really going to sound cheesy,
and you're gonna be like, of course she said that,
but you really have to be yourself like that is
the secret. There's only one you, and I mean that
so sincerely. I run a product with you know, tens
of millions of people, if not more, and there's only
(20:49):
one you. So don't try to blend in. Try to
stand out. And so by standing out, that is by
asking yourself like, what is unique to me? Where do
I feel most alive in my life photos? Where do
I feel like, oh that is so me? And then
really express yourself. If you're funny, like showcase that, if
you are hyper intellectual, showcase that. Do not be shy,
(21:12):
and do not build a profile in fear of what
someone will think of you, because the ultimate outcome here
is that you find someone that sees you for you
and you can be yourself with And so if you
don't present yourself as your true self, you won't connect
that way. So I would say, just like, be so
uniquely you, and it will attract the people that are
(21:35):
meant for you.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
My worst ones were also me not knowing myself.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
You're so right, and I think that you will see
this be one of the most important pillars of this
business in the future. I think that's been the missing
link in dating this entire time. I think that's pretty revolutionary.
I agree with you now that you are sort of
released from the burden of day in and day out
(22:01):
CEO ship. I've heard you say that you're really excited
to be an ideas person again. Is there anything that
you're comfortable sharing with in terms of what you are creating,
what you want to put forth into the world via
bumble or elsewhere. I'm really focused on these macro cultural
themes and integrating them into our vision as a company.
(22:24):
How do we actually help people get to know themselves
so that they can really express themselves in a way
that's more authentic and then attract people that will appreciate
them for them And people don't need to fall in
love in a pretend version of themselves. It is just
like the inevitable, it's going to fall apart and collapse, right,
So how do we actually prevent bad relationships from ever
(22:47):
happening thematically. I've been spending the bulk of my time
on self discovery, self love. That's really where I spend
ninety nine percent of my energy right now.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Gen Z is so focused on self love. So it's
how we save the planet. Candidly, like, if we all
learn to love ourselves a little bit more in ten, twenty, thirty,
fifty years from not like, we.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
Will be a better place for sure.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
So I think some people just have these strong natural
instincts that help them pick up on things with culture.
And then on the other hand, some people have these
very particular external resources that help them get a finger
on the pulse of the world around them. Are there
ways in which you receive these sort of downloads or
information about what's going on in culture at large? Is
(23:32):
it from reading? Is it from talking to people? What
is it for you? You know?
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Since I was a kid, I just get these downloads.
I just feel things. I don't know what you call it.
I just get these like knowings. I went through a
harrowing teenage relationship that took me to my like depths
of hell, and I just as an innocent young girl,
(23:59):
I just could not even imagine that that could happen
to someone, and so I just think I wake up
every day saying like I am going to just like
make sure that whoever the sixteen year old Whitney out
there never goes through that again. And I just like
feel it. I don't know, that's just how my brain works.
I love to meditate. I meditate every single day. It's
like the only way I can function. And I don't know,
(24:22):
I just try to connect inward to something bigger, whatever
you want to call that.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I think your career it's so obvious to me that
it's this feeling and this knowing when I look at
your career.
Speaker 5 (24:35):
That's really kind and I really appreciate you guys asking
all these amazing questions.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's been really fun. Thanks for saying that. Whitney, Thank you,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Whitney will have heard as the founder and executive chair
of Bumble.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media. Hello Sunshine on Instagram and
at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and feel
free to tag us at Simone Voice and at Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
See you tomorrow, folks, keep looking on the bright side.
Host
Simone Boyce
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