July 8, 2024 • 30 mins
Glynnis MacNicol, author of "I'm Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself," joins the show to discuss how single women can (and do) embrace joy and self-discovery — and how to redefine success and pleasure in middle age. Plus, Simone and Danielle get into societal pressures, gender biases in success timelines, and examples of late bloomers who defied societal expectations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright Side, author
Glennis McNichol is here to tell us how to enjoy ourselves.
We're talking pleasure, womanhood, and Paris Baby. It's Monday, July eighth.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the
bright Side from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Happy Monday, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
It is on my mind Monday, the day of the
week when we share something that motivates us, inspires curiosity,
and provides a fresh perspective to the week ahead. So
what's on your mind today, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Okay, what's on my mind is being a late bloomer.
So many of us feel pressured by society to achieve
success early. There's these lists like thirty under thirty, and
we hear these stories of young achievers like Bill Gates
and Taylor Swift. But there was a recent article in
The Atlantic that I loved and it highlights the benefits
(00:58):
of being a late bloomer. And as somebody who feels
like a late bloomer in many ways, I just felt
so kind of like this article gave me a big hug.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
In some ways, this feels very bright side.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I want to hear more.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, it suggests that late bloomers have these unique traits
that make them successful. So there's three main ones. The
first is intrinsic motivation. They're driven by personal interests rather
than external rewards.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Do you identify with that?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I think I was driven by external rewards for a while,
like in my twenties, but now I'm driven by personal interests.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Love that that's growth, right, definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
The second is diversive curiosity, so it's gained from trying
different jobs and interests, which leads to a broad range
of knowledge. It's basically like trying on different hats to
see if they fit and taking what you like and
what you don't like from them. And then the third
is wisdom, which is achieved after a lifetime of experimentation
(01:59):
and learning. Do you consider yourself a late bloomer at all?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I don't really know how to answer this question because
I don't want to compare myself to other people's timelines.
So to me, it's like, well, what is what is late?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
What is early? What is on time?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Because everybody's on We're all on our own timelines, and
I actually quite like my timeline.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I like my timing. I like my journey.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's so beautiful. I think that's what we're all kind
of working towards. Mika Brazinski started she I think she
hated the Forbes thirty Under thirty list because she felt
the same way, and so she started a whole new
list with the fifty over fifty nominations, which I absolutely
love seeing. But there's this fascinating statistic from the American
(02:46):
Economic Review that the likelihood of a startup success increases
significantly between ages twenty five and thirty five, and it
continues to rise into the fifties. So the average age
of a successful entrepreneur is forty five. And if you
were reading the news, you would never think that, because
we hear about these like kid geniuses who are eighteen
and dropped out of college and walked into a boardroom
(03:07):
with a backpack and became a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You know, well, we're far more generous with our societal
timelines when it comes to men, like it's not surprising
to picture a successful entrepreneur who's a man who's forty
five years old. But for women, we have these expiration
dates that are so punishing.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So well said, I think our fertility probably has a
lot to do with it, but when I read other
women's stories, it gives me a lot of solace. So
I just want to share a few women who quote
unquote made it or lived out their moments and their
dreams past their twenties. So Tony Morrison was thirty nine
when she first published her novel The Bluest Eye, and
(03:49):
she won the Pulitzer at fifty six. Julia Childs was
in her late thirties when she even tasted French food
for the first time, and she published her cookbook at
forty nine.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
This one.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I love pilot and flight instructor Wally Funk. She's a
trailblazer for women in space and aviation. She went to
space for the first time at eighty two. So I
say all this to say that anybody who feels like
they need to embrace the bright side of being a
late bloomer, whatever that means for you, please embrace it.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
There are examples and stories all around us.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You have plenty of time is an overlooked, under hyped
affirmation that I think we can all be extending to
ourselves a lot more often.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, And I think it's fitting to lead into our
next guests because She's a prime example of living life
on her own timeline and defining success for herself as
opposed to living our culture's just blanket definition. Glennis McNichol
is an author, podcast host, and producer. Her latest book,
I'm Mostly Here to enjoy Myself One Woman's Pursuit of
(04:54):
Pleasure in Paris, has made cultural waves. She discusses how
her Resian adventure reshaped her outlook as she approaches fifty.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And how the book came to be as super interesting too.
I mean, Glennis was living alone in New York City
during the pandemic. During that time, she experienced what she
calls quote extreme loneliness no one can prepare you for.
So she actually went months without touch or face to
face contact. So when she was offered the chance to
sublet her friend's apartment in Paris, she immediately jumped on
(05:25):
the opportunity and proceeded to live her best life for
the next six weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And a big theme in all of her books is
centering joyful single women, which has been her own personal experience.
But here's what I find particularly interesting about her work.
Whether she's podcasting or producing or writing, she focuses on
the breath of womanhood, and many of the stories she
explores are far outside.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Of her own experiences.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
She did a critically acclaimed podcast called Under the Influence,
which looks at mommy influencer culture. Or she did another
podcast called which looked at the history of Laura Ingalls
Wilder by actually traveling the US to some of her
iconic places. And So, I think this particular book can
be summed up by a quote from The New York
Times about her memoir. It celebrates women who forge their
(06:15):
own paths, ignoring the cultural scripts they've been handed.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So I think we have to go off.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Script today with Glennis McNicol. We'll be right back after
the break.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Don't go anywhere, y'all. Welcome to the bright Side, Glennis.
Thank you guys so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
We're so happy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We hear stories about single women, we hear stories about
happy women, but we don't often hear stories about single
happy women. And you've written several books that center joyful
single women. It's a joyful single woman. I really appreciate it.
But there's a Vogue interview you did in twenty eighteen
(07:06):
and you said this, I turned forty and promptly discovered
it was nothing like what I'd been led to believe
leading up to your forties.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
What did you believe it was going to be versus
what it was?
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Oh goodness, I'm turning fifty in September, so taking me
back to my thirties feels like.
Speaker 6 (07:22):
A stretch at this point.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
And I'm really grateful I wrote that book when I did,
because ten years on, I look back and I think,
was it really as hard as I wrote that it was?
But I think it was less what I expected them
to be and more that there was no blueprint for
what they could look like outside of partnership or parenthood.
It sort of felt like the whatever map we'd been
(07:44):
given sort of disappeared, and it was like, oh, you
have disappeared. There's no version of what life can look
like for you if you're not parenting or if you're
not partners. So I think the extreme anxiety over that
and feeling like I'd failed in some way was overwhelming
at that time.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
You mentioned anxiety.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It's something that I feel when I tell people that
I'm thirty three, I feel their anxiety for me. What
did you want your life to look like? Why did
you feel like it was a failure. What had you
imagined for it?
Speaker 5 (08:20):
I think there we don't have rituals around women's lives
outside of weddings and parenthood, and subsequently, there's no way
to celebrate your life.
Speaker 6 (08:31):
And when you have.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
No ritual around being successful in the world, it is
hard to feel successful. I suppose when no one understands
the choices you're making or sees them as valid choices,
or no.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
One really believes it.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
I remember doing a Times article at the time where
it was like, no one believes I'm happy, because I
would just and it puts you in a strange, like
sort of defensive place of like, no, actually, I'm quite
enjoying my life, but there's no narrative.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
To point to.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
You can't I like, here's my happy life. Photos that
resonate quite the same way. And I think that that
can undermine your sense of success in a way, constantly
having it questioned, and then the resentment of sort of
feeling like you have to defend yourself. I don't feel
any of that anymore, but I think at the time
I was like sensitive to it.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Glennis, I want to talk about your latest book. I'm
mostly here to enjoy myself. And I feel like I
have to mention that I just got back from Paris
myself so envious.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
The jet lag is still wearing enough.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, I related to just about everything in this book
and I can't wait to really digest it with you.
But first I think we have to rewind and set
the stage four. How you even got to Paris? So
sixteen months earlier, before you move to Paris, you've used
the term skin hunger to describe the feeling of being
(09:58):
untouched for those sixteen months that you spent in pure
isolation during the pandemic. Can you describe what that felt like.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
I live in New York City, and when we went
into lockdown in March twenty twenty, it was a really
strict lockdown, and I live in a very small Upper
West Side studio and I was alone in this studio
apartment for about fourteen or fifteen months, really alone. And
after a while you're like, oh, no one has responded
to my physical presence in any way, and I have
(10:29):
not had physical contact in any way. And skin hunger
is a real term that is used to describe what
happens to people who go without touch for extended periods.
Of time, and I read a study when I was
running the book that scientists discovered that animals who had
been restricted from touch for extended periods of time and
had the choice between food and touch would go for touch.
(10:50):
Is how essential touch is to our functioning in the world.
So after those sixteen months, I was really feeling crazy
to be embraced, to.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Be seen, like be seen in the most literal way.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
I think we talked about women in age and invisibility,
and I was like, literally, I just wanted to literally,
you know, be seen by people. I like went into
my closet and took out all my vintage fur coats
and sort of laid them on the bed and lay
on top of them as like a way to approximate
some sort of tactile experience. Yeah, So it was. It
(11:28):
got to a point where it felt like I was crazed.
I mean, in hindsight, that's sort of how I exist
in my own memory.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Glennis, So you go to Paris and you sublet your
friend's apartment, and you mentioned lacking physical touch, but you
get there and you have so much physical touch. You
have just an overwhelming amount of joy and pleasure. And
I'm wondering if you can share a story that's top
of mind where you either felt like you lived really
(11:57):
outside of yourself or now that I'm hearing this story,
a moment where you felt so inside of yourself.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Well, I think I was living for like lockdown, and
maybe this is true of everyone.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
I was so far outside of myself that getting.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
To Paris was sort of re entering my own body,
because so much time alone had felt like it was
separating me from my physical presence. And so those five
weeks where I landed and just like hurled myself into
everything pleasurable. I had a very close group of friends
there who I missed very much, And after I was
(12:30):
there for two weeks, we went dancing on the Seine
one Saturday night, which is what it sounds, you know.
I joke that there's sort of like the real Paris
and the fantasy Paris, but everyonece in a while they overlap.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
And that was one of those nights where like all.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
The Parisians were had set up picnic blankings and a
live band had formed out of the blue, and that
turned into this impromptu dance party and I ended up
dancing with this very handsome young man all night that
then progressed to him coming home with me.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
And we had an even more enjoyable night.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
The thing that strikes me about that whole five weeks,
and one of the reasons that I really wanted to
write it down, was like everything went right.
Speaker 6 (13:10):
And I think that we rarely.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Have stories about women where everything goes right, especially women alone.
I think we attach fear to a woman alone for
any number of reasons. But again and again, like every
single little thing went right, until I got to the
point where I was just like, just enjoy don't second
guess it, don't wait for it to.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Not go right.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
It's just going to keep going better and better. And
it did.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So glynnis when you were talking about the fear that
exists around a woman being alone, and I'll take it
a step further, a woman enjoying herself alone and experiencing
pleasure alone.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
I mean, that is so real. I feel that so deeply.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
And I'm a married woman, been married for thirteen years,
I have two kids, so you know, I I'm living
a very different life than the one that you describe
in the book. But I actually think that your story
is so resonant beyond the identity of singledom because in
the same way that living doesn't start whenever single theom ends.
(14:16):
Living can't end whenever marriage or partnership begins, right like,
we still have to keep living and having these experiences.
And that's what brought me to Paris over the past week,
and I experienced that fantasy Paris that you were talking about.
But the reality is that that fear and that guilt
and that shame around making those choices and choosing ourselves
(14:36):
still exists. So how do you circumvent that? Are you
vulnerable to the critics? Have you trained yourself to tune
them out? At this point?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I don't know if it's such a conscious decision. I
think part of it is age. I think you start
to age out of cultural storylines in a way that
I think can be punishing but can also be a
real source of strength because there are fewer expectations placed
on you. And why there are fewer expectations is the
problem in the sense of we don't value women over
(15:06):
a certain age for like a wide variety of reasons.
When the world is so disinterested in your well being.
Generally speaking, it's very hard for me to attach myself
to those expectations. And disappointments. So the idea that I
would turn around and be worried, like, oh, I should
apologize for this behavior or I should feel a shamed
(15:27):
for doing this, I think, well, you know you're not
doing really anything for me, so why should I take
up this brain space thinking about how you feel about this?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
What are the conversations that you're having with your married
friends about the kind of empowered living that you exemplify
in this book.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Most of my friendships are now decades long, dating back
to high school or my early twenties, and so I
receive nothing but encouragement around my life or support or love,
and that's vice versus. So I think they're all really
energized by it and sort of love the idea of it,
And if they're not in a place where they can
(16:06):
participate in it, or even in a place where they
would ever want to participate in it, it's enjoyable to
note that it's possible and that someone's doing it. A
friend of mine said to me the other day that
after she read the book, she felt empowered, a very
strong word to apply to what's going to be a
very small gesture. But she was joking that someone asked
(16:27):
her if she wanted an ice coffee, and instead of
saying no, no, I'm fine, she said, yes, I would
like an ice coffee and I would like it with
almond milk. And she was like, I should be enjoying this.
I'm not going to be scared to ask for what
I need. So that so far has been sort of
a fun response. But most of my friends knew this
was happening as it was happening, because I was updating,
because I was going.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
So I think it was fun for them to.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
See it in the book form, the What's app texts
and everything.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Yeah, exactly, you say.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
The Paris group chat is lit.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah, my parents group chatter. None of those women are married.
But when I came back, I sort of floated back
into New York and I was like, guys, let me
see what I've been doing.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Well to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you think that French women approach aging, pleasure family
relationships differently than we do in the US.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
When I'm in France, I feel like aging is more
what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 6 (17:26):
They have a gentler relationship with aging.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
That women are considered attractive as they age in ways.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
That we aren't here.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I think they have a far more I think more
broadly speaking, they have a far more comfortable relationship with sex,
and that's European and not necessarily French, but that we
are still very puritan here in North America, and that
when you're there is not so rare to find older
women attractive, or that older women would consider themselves attractive.
(17:56):
And there's I notice anyway less procedures happening on faces.
But that's anecdotal and anecdotal from my New York experience
as well.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
But I definitely think they have an easier time with it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I would say I also was really inspired by just
how they live life. I mean, I would go to
dinner at ten pm and it would be a three
hour dinner, you know, And there's a slowness to life
there and a leisurelyiness that I found very appealing and
(18:29):
something that I hope I can bring back.
Speaker 6 (18:32):
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
And I also think France enjoyment is considered I would say,
like a human right. It's built into the legislature, essentially,
like how many days you can work, how many hours
when you retire. I always think a good example of
this is when you're unemployed. In France, you get free
access to museums, Like there is this sense that this
is like a part of life, and I think in
(18:55):
America pleasure has to be earned, like you have to financially,
but also through work, and that I think is what
we feel that when we get there is just like, oh,
this is just how the day goes.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
You don't have to justify it.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
We need to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back. Stay with us and we're back.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Glinnis, you have this theory that the female narrative is
based on the male orgasm.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Will you elaborate on that.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
I feel like the narrative structure as we understand it
for everyone is based on the you know, the male orgasm,
which makes sense when you think men were primarily and
are still primarily the storytellers and that is the fundamental
experience of life. It's sort of, you know, it's a
three act structure. It's like set it up, tension, culmination,
(19:53):
the end, and it just drops off after that.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
And I think that that happy ending.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
I mean, you can talk about the phrase happy ending
if you want to, in terms of how it gets applied.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
In a massage situation. Sometimes.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
But I think because I've struggled so many times to
convince people that the life I'm living is deserving of
a narrative because it doesn't fill the classic narrative structure
that we understand. It is always the question of, well,
how do we know that you're happy? How do we
know that you've been a success if we can't cap
this off in ways that we're familiar with that I
(20:24):
really started rethinking narrative structure and thinking, you know, what
if it didn't resemble the male orgasm, and what if
it resembled a female orgasm, which is more like waves,
and some are bigger and some are smaller, and there's
not necessarily like an end, you know, like it just
maybe it keeps going in ways and maybe the high
point is earlier and that at the very end.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
First of all, I love that analogy. I think you're right,
and I love the imagery of waves. So much of
our life looks like that. You've mentioned sort of like
the the markers of success a few times, and I'm
wondering how you measure it in yourself.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Now, I would say I came out of that trip.
That trip I sort of think, in hindsight, was like
a doorway into middle age. I was forty six turning
forty seven, and I hope this is middle age, you know,
you hope that you have another forty years. But as like,
I came through it, and I came out of it
feeling so excited and powerful and just really feeling like
(21:24):
all the warnings I'd been told about age were a lie,
and until proven otherwise, I was going to assume it
was all a lie. And so I think just maintaining
the sense of agency and optimism and trying to align
myself with my acts in a sense of like, how
(21:46):
do I exist in the world. Is that aligned with
the person I know I am to be because I'm
fully within myself. I mean, I hope everyone by the
time they get to fifty feels fully within themselves, and
I do.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
And so to maintain.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
That sort of groundedness within myself and make sure that
you know, you keep going with.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
That, which is not always easy.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
I think when you don't see any sense of yourself
reflected in the culture, it can be hard to believe
that you are enjoying yourself as much as you are
because you're not seeing a reflection of it, and you
really have to have full faith in your own experience
because there's very little to back it up.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
And maintaining that I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
It's hard to believe that you had any doubters before
you published this book, because, oh God, I've been seeing
this book everywhere. I mean, you were on CBS Mornings,
you were on our friend Mary Jane Fahee's page. Everyone
is loving this book, and so I'm so thrilled for
you that you're getting this response. And there was this
line that really stuck out to me that you've written
that you said the thing women fantasize about the most
(22:47):
is freedom. That line really stopped me in my tracks.
What was on your mind when you wrote that? Was
there a chapter of your life that you were thinking about.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
It was a friend of mine who was researching the
history of pornography and saying, one of the reasons it's
so difficult to make pornography that appeals to women is
because women don't fantasize about sex necessarily as their greatest fantasy.
They fantasize about freedom. A funny historical anecdote is when
the two wheel bike was sort of first emerged on
(23:19):
the scene at the turn of the last century.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
It was huge for women.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
It was the first time they were able to go
places is at a chaperone. Prior to that, the only
women who were able to sort of walk alone in
the streets were sex workers who needed a license from
the city, but otherwise you needed a chaperone. And so
women were able to travel by themselves. But the men
tried to push back on women on bikes by saying
that young women might inadvertently experience an orgasm from the
(23:44):
bicycle seat, and this was their argument for not allowing
women on bikes. And I that is where that line
comes from, because I thought, I always thought, like, oh,
the orgasm that women are going to experience on these
bikes has nothing to do with the physical experience. It
has to do with like the absolute thrill of being
able to go somewhere by yourself when you want and
how you want, and that that was a possibility and
(24:06):
how thrilling that is. And in these five weeks really
for myself interrogating what that meant. And I think bigger
picture is this sense of and going back to turning
forty with this sense of, oh, you're not partners, you
don't have children, you fit the sort of stereotype of
what we believe to be sort of a failure or
(24:28):
sad woman, and really understanding that I recognized all of
the opportunity available to me, and that I was a
person who was built for the life I was leading,
and that I was so grateful to have the opportunities
I had because I was a person who could take
advantage of them in every way, not just you know
where I was born, when I was born, the education
(24:48):
I had access to, but that I was able to
run with this in a way that felt completely true
to myself and how fortunate I am that that's possible,
because God knows, there's been play any of women who
are built to live the life I'm leading and never
had the opportunity to do so. So I think it
was sort of a culmination after this trip or during
the strip, of really recognizing that I in the exact
(25:14):
life I'm supposed to be in, and thank God I
had access to a life that so fits the person
I am so completely.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You've worked on some critically acclaimed shows. One that I
loved was Under the Influence, which looks at mommy influencer culture.
You worked on Wilder, which looked at the history of
Laura Ingles Wilder by actually traveling the US to some
of her iconic places. And what I noticed is that
both shows, as well as your books, they all focus
(25:44):
on women and the breath of womanhood.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
And so I have a very general question.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
For you, which is, where did your interest in womanhood
come from?
Speaker 5 (25:54):
I'm a writer in the place I write from is
like a place of observation, and there came a point
where you just I wanted to see some version of
my life reflected in the world. And in the case
of Wilder, the Little housebooks were, you know, pivotal to me.
There were early books I read. It's when I decided
(26:15):
I wanted to be a writer. And when we say
in the podcast we pull out my little Diary from
when I was six and.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
Being like, I want to be a writer, like Loring,
goes Wilder.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
And so I think it's more this sense of I
crave at all times narratives that reflect not just how
I'm existing, but like, my life is not that unusual.
I can look to my left and right, and I
know the dozens of women living similarly to me at
my age and making similar choices, and it's just I
just happened to be one of the people who put
(26:44):
it to paper. But the fact it feels unusual is
always so enraging to me, because I'm like, why aren't
we seeing the movies and the television shows around this?
Speaker 6 (26:52):
And so I'm always just like.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Digging around trying to throw some version of it up
there because I'm not seeing it.
Speaker 6 (27:01):
It doesn't feel like I'm seeing it enough.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Well, Glennis, You've clearly struck a nerve with this book,
and I think that's because we all have this universal
desire to live an empowered life, as you are clearly living,
and I believe that it's never too late for women
to start living unapologetically. So when you look back on
all these rich life experiences that you've had, what is
(27:27):
the secret to liberation?
Speaker 6 (27:30):
I'm not sure I conceive of my life in these terms.
Is maybe the challenge here.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
I don't think that I'm not unusual, is the interesting thing.
When I look around, I don't actually find myself to
be that unique. I think it's a long process of
just of wanting to do what makes me feel in
charge and more powerful, and working relentlessly to align how
(27:54):
I make a living with how I want to exist
in the world, which is with as much agency and
latitude is possible. And I don't know that you know
that looks different for everyone, but it does feel to
me that at some point I stopped feeling shame around
any part of my existence. And that comes down to
(28:18):
I think there was a point where I thought, who's
benefiting from my feeling ashamed?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Like?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
I actually think that's a good question for everyone to
ask themselves if you're feeling shame in a certain experience
or in a certain decision, like who benefits from that shame?
Speaker 6 (28:32):
Do you benefit from it?
Speaker 5 (28:34):
If there's a general sense of like, oh goodness, she's
doing what she wants, who benefits from you feeling bad
about that? Because usually not anyone who's opinion you're interested in.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I would argue, is there a word that does resonate
for you? Like I've heard people use the word untamed?
You said liberation doesn't totally hit like what feels right
for you?
Speaker 5 (28:54):
I think agency is a word that I tend to
come back to a lot. I'm able to make choices
for myself and I'm not scared to make them, and.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
That feels good. That feels successful to me.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
I love that we'll go with agency.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Then, yeah, Glennis, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 6 (29:13):
Thank you both for having me.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Thank you, Glennis.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Glennis McNichol is a writer and the author of I'm
Mostly Here to enjoy Myself.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
You can find it wherever you get your books.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're headed to the
Olympics with American breaker Sonny Choi. She's currently training to
compete in break dancing at this summer's Paris Olympics.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I'm Simone Boye.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You can find me at Simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
That's ro Ba.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Y see you tomorrow, folks.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Keep looking on the bright side.
Hello Sunshine, Hey fam Today, on the bright Side, author
Glennis McNichol is here to tell us how to enjoy ourselves.
We're talking pleasure, womanhood, and Paris Baby. It's Monday, July eighth.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Simone Boyce, I'm Danielle Robe and this is the
bright Side from Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Happy Monday, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
It is on my mind Monday, the day of the
week when we share something that motivates us, inspires curiosity,
and provides a fresh perspective to the week ahead. So
what's on your mind today, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Okay, what's on my mind is being a late bloomer.
So many of us feel pressured by society to achieve
success early. There's these lists like thirty under thirty, and
we hear these stories of young achievers like Bill Gates
and Taylor Swift. But there was a recent article in
The Atlantic that I loved and it highlights the benefits
(00:58):
of being a late bloomer. And as somebody who feels
like a late bloomer in many ways, I just felt
so kind of like this article gave me a big hug.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
In some ways, this feels very bright side.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
I want to hear more.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yes, it suggests that late bloomers have these unique traits
that make them successful. So there's three main ones. The
first is intrinsic motivation. They're driven by personal interests rather
than external rewards.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Do you identify with that?
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I think I was driven by external rewards for a while,
like in my twenties, but now I'm driven by personal interests.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Love that that's growth, right, definitely.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
The second is diversive curiosity, so it's gained from trying
different jobs and interests, which leads to a broad range
of knowledge. It's basically like trying on different hats to
see if they fit and taking what you like and
what you don't like from them. And then the third
is wisdom, which is achieved after a lifetime of experimentation
(01:59):
and learning. Do you consider yourself a late bloomer at all?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I don't really know how to answer this question because
I don't want to compare myself to other people's timelines.
So to me, it's like, well, what is what is late?
Speaker 3 (02:15):
What is early? What is on time?
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Because everybody's on We're all on our own timelines, and
I actually quite like my timeline.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
I like my timing. I like my journey.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
That's so beautiful. I think that's what we're all kind
of working towards. Mika Brazinski started she I think she
hated the Forbes thirty Under thirty list because she felt
the same way, and so she started a whole new
list with the fifty over fifty nominations, which I absolutely
love seeing. But there's this fascinating statistic from the American
(02:46):
Economic Review that the likelihood of a startup success increases
significantly between ages twenty five and thirty five, and it
continues to rise into the fifties. So the average age
of a successful entrepreneur is forty five. And if you
were reading the news, you would never think that, because
we hear about these like kid geniuses who are eighteen
and dropped out of college and walked into a boardroom
(03:07):
with a backpack and became a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
You know, well, we're far more generous with our societal
timelines when it comes to men, like it's not surprising
to picture a successful entrepreneur who's a man who's forty
five years old. But for women, we have these expiration
dates that are so punishing.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So well said, I think our fertility probably has a
lot to do with it, but when I read other
women's stories, it gives me a lot of solace. So
I just want to share a few women who quote
unquote made it or lived out their moments and their
dreams past their twenties. So Tony Morrison was thirty nine
when she first published her novel The Bluest Eye, and
(03:49):
she won the Pulitzer at fifty six. Julia Childs was
in her late thirties when she even tasted French food
for the first time, and she published her cookbook at
forty nine.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
This one.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I love pilot and flight instructor Wally Funk. She's a
trailblazer for women in space and aviation. She went to
space for the first time at eighty two. So I
say all this to say that anybody who feels like
they need to embrace the bright side of being a
late bloomer, whatever that means for you, please embrace it.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
There are examples and stories all around us.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
You have plenty of time is an overlooked, under hyped
affirmation that I think we can all be extending to
ourselves a lot more often.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Yeah, And I think it's fitting to lead into our
next guests because She's a prime example of living life
on her own timeline and defining success for herself as
opposed to living our culture's just blanket definition. Glennis McNichol
is an author, podcast host, and producer. Her latest book,
I'm Mostly Here to enjoy Myself One Woman's Pursuit of
(04:54):
Pleasure in Paris, has made cultural waves. She discusses how
her Resian adventure reshaped her outlook as she approaches fifty.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
And how the book came to be as super interesting too.
I mean, Glennis was living alone in New York City
during the pandemic. During that time, she experienced what she
calls quote extreme loneliness no one can prepare you for.
So she actually went months without touch or face to
face contact. So when she was offered the chance to
sublet her friend's apartment in Paris, she immediately jumped on
(05:25):
the opportunity and proceeded to live her best life for
the next six weeks.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
And a big theme in all of her books is
centering joyful single women, which has been her own personal experience.
But here's what I find particularly interesting about her work.
Whether she's podcasting or producing or writing, she focuses on
the breath of womanhood, and many of the stories she
explores are far outside.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Of her own experiences.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
She did a critically acclaimed podcast called Under the Influence,
which looks at mommy influencer culture. Or she did another
podcast called which looked at the history of Laura Ingalls
Wilder by actually traveling the US to some of her
iconic places. And So, I think this particular book can
be summed up by a quote from The New York
Times about her memoir. It celebrates women who forge their
(06:15):
own paths, ignoring the cultural scripts they've been handed.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
I love that.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So I think we have to go off.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Script today with Glennis McNicol. We'll be right back after
the break.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Don't go anywhere, y'all. Welcome to the bright Side, Glennis.
Thank you guys so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
We're so happy to have you here.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
We hear stories about single women, we hear stories about
happy women, but we don't often hear stories about single
happy women. And you've written several books that center joyful
single women. It's a joyful single woman. I really appreciate it.
But there's a Vogue interview you did in twenty eighteen
(07:06):
and you said this, I turned forty and promptly discovered
it was nothing like what I'd been led to believe
leading up to your forties.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
What did you believe it was going to be versus
what it was?
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Oh goodness, I'm turning fifty in September, so taking me
back to my thirties feels like.
Speaker 6 (07:22):
A stretch at this point.
Speaker 5 (07:24):
And I'm really grateful I wrote that book when I did,
because ten years on, I look back and I think,
was it really as hard as I wrote that it was?
But I think it was less what I expected them
to be and more that there was no blueprint for
what they could look like outside of partnership or parenthood.
It sort of felt like the whatever map we'd been
(07:44):
given sort of disappeared, and it was like, oh, you
have disappeared. There's no version of what life can look
like for you if you're not parenting or if you're
not partners. So I think the extreme anxiety over that
and feeling like I'd failed in some way was overwhelming
at that time.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
You mentioned anxiety.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
It's something that I feel when I tell people that
I'm thirty three, I feel their anxiety for me. What
did you want your life to look like? Why did
you feel like it was a failure. What had you
imagined for it?
Speaker 5 (08:20):
I think there we don't have rituals around women's lives
outside of weddings and parenthood, and subsequently, there's no way
to celebrate your life.
Speaker 6 (08:31):
And when you have.
Speaker 5 (08:32):
No ritual around being successful in the world, it is
hard to feel successful. I suppose when no one understands
the choices you're making or sees them as valid choices,
or no.
Speaker 6 (08:47):
One really believes it.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
I remember doing a Times article at the time where
it was like, no one believes I'm happy, because I
would just and it puts you in a strange, like
sort of defensive place of like, no, actually, I'm quite
enjoying my life, but there's no narrative.
Speaker 6 (08:58):
To point to.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
You can't I like, here's my happy life. Photos that
resonate quite the same way. And I think that that
can undermine your sense of success in a way, constantly
having it questioned, and then the resentment of sort of
feeling like you have to defend yourself. I don't feel
any of that anymore, but I think at the time
I was like sensitive to it.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Glennis, I want to talk about your latest book. I'm
mostly here to enjoy myself. And I feel like I
have to mention that I just got back from Paris
myself so envious.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
The jet lag is still wearing enough.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, I related to just about everything in this book
and I can't wait to really digest it with you.
But first I think we have to rewind and set
the stage four. How you even got to Paris? So
sixteen months earlier, before you move to Paris, you've used
the term skin hunger to describe the feeling of being
(09:58):
untouched for those sixteen months that you spent in pure
isolation during the pandemic. Can you describe what that felt like.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
I live in New York City, and when we went
into lockdown in March twenty twenty, it was a really
strict lockdown, and I live in a very small Upper
West Side studio and I was alone in this studio
apartment for about fourteen or fifteen months, really alone. And
after a while you're like, oh, no one has responded
to my physical presence in any way, and I have
(10:29):
not had physical contact in any way. And skin hunger
is a real term that is used to describe what
happens to people who go without touch for extended periods.
Of time, and I read a study when I was
running the book that scientists discovered that animals who had
been restricted from touch for extended periods of time and
had the choice between food and touch would go for touch.
(10:50):
Is how essential touch is to our functioning in the world.
So after those sixteen months, I was really feeling crazy
to be embraced, to.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Be seen, like be seen in the most literal way.
Speaker 5 (11:05):
I think we talked about women in age and invisibility,
and I was like, literally, I just wanted to literally,
you know, be seen by people. I like went into
my closet and took out all my vintage fur coats
and sort of laid them on the bed and lay
on top of them as like a way to approximate
some sort of tactile experience. Yeah, So it was. It
(11:28):
got to a point where it felt like I was crazed.
I mean, in hindsight, that's sort of how I exist
in my own memory.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Glennis, So you go to Paris and you sublet your
friend's apartment, and you mentioned lacking physical touch, but you
get there and you have so much physical touch. You
have just an overwhelming amount of joy and pleasure. And
I'm wondering if you can share a story that's top
of mind where you either felt like you lived really
(11:57):
outside of yourself or now that I'm hearing this story,
a moment where you felt so inside of yourself.
Speaker 5 (12:03):
Well, I think I was living for like lockdown, and
maybe this is true of everyone.
Speaker 6 (12:07):
I was so far outside of myself that getting.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
To Paris was sort of re entering my own body,
because so much time alone had felt like it was
separating me from my physical presence. And so those five
weeks where I landed and just like hurled myself into
everything pleasurable. I had a very close group of friends
there who I missed very much, And after I was
(12:30):
there for two weeks, we went dancing on the Seine
one Saturday night, which is what it sounds, you know.
I joke that there's sort of like the real Paris
and the fantasy Paris, but everyonece in a while they overlap.
Speaker 6 (12:43):
And that was one of those nights where like all.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
The Parisians were had set up picnic blankings and a
live band had formed out of the blue, and that
turned into this impromptu dance party and I ended up
dancing with this very handsome young man all night that
then progressed to him coming home with me.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
And we had an even more enjoyable night.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
The thing that strikes me about that whole five weeks,
and one of the reasons that I really wanted to
write it down, was like everything went right.
Speaker 6 (13:10):
And I think that we rarely.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
Have stories about women where everything goes right, especially women alone.
I think we attach fear to a woman alone for
any number of reasons. But again and again, like every
single little thing went right, until I got to the
point where I was just like, just enjoy don't second
guess it, don't wait for it to.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Not go right.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
It's just going to keep going better and better. And
it did.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
So glynnis when you were talking about the fear that
exists around a woman being alone, and I'll take it
a step further, a woman enjoying herself alone and experiencing
pleasure alone.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
I mean, that is so real. I feel that so deeply.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
And I'm a married woman, been married for thirteen years,
I have two kids, so you know, I I'm living
a very different life than the one that you describe
in the book. But I actually think that your story
is so resonant beyond the identity of singledom because in
the same way that living doesn't start whenever single theom ends.
(14:16):
Living can't end whenever marriage or partnership begins, right like,
we still have to keep living and having these experiences.
And that's what brought me to Paris over the past week,
and I experienced that fantasy Paris that you were talking about.
But the reality is that that fear and that guilt
and that shame around making those choices and choosing ourselves
(14:36):
still exists. So how do you circumvent that? Are you
vulnerable to the critics? Have you trained yourself to tune
them out? At this point?
Speaker 5 (14:44):
I don't know if it's such a conscious decision. I
think part of it is age. I think you start
to age out of cultural storylines in a way that
I think can be punishing but can also be a
real source of strength because there are fewer expectations placed
on you. And why there are fewer expectations is the
problem in the sense of we don't value women over
(15:06):
a certain age for like a wide variety of reasons.
When the world is so disinterested in your well being.
Generally speaking, it's very hard for me to attach myself
to those expectations. And disappointments. So the idea that I
would turn around and be worried, like, oh, I should
apologize for this behavior or I should feel a shamed
(15:27):
for doing this, I think, well, you know you're not
doing really anything for me, so why should I take
up this brain space thinking about how you feel about this?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
What are the conversations that you're having with your married
friends about the kind of empowered living that you exemplify
in this book.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Most of my friendships are now decades long, dating back
to high school or my early twenties, and so I
receive nothing but encouragement around my life or support or love,
and that's vice versus. So I think they're all really
energized by it and sort of love the idea of it,
And if they're not in a place where they can
(16:06):
participate in it, or even in a place where they
would ever want to participate in it, it's enjoyable to
note that it's possible and that someone's doing it. A
friend of mine said to me the other day that
after she read the book, she felt empowered, a very
strong word to apply to what's going to be a
very small gesture. But she was joking that someone asked
(16:27):
her if she wanted an ice coffee, and instead of
saying no, no, I'm fine, she said, yes, I would
like an ice coffee and I would like it with
almond milk. And she was like, I should be enjoying this.
I'm not going to be scared to ask for what
I need. So that so far has been sort of
a fun response. But most of my friends knew this
was happening as it was happening, because I was updating,
because I was going.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
So I think it was fun for them to.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
See it in the book form, the What's app texts
and everything.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Yeah, exactly, you say.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
The Paris group chat is lit.
Speaker 5 (16:57):
Yeah, my parents group chatter. None of those women are married.
But when I came back, I sort of floated back
into New York and I was like, guys, let me
see what I've been doing.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Well to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Do you think that French women approach aging, pleasure family
relationships differently than we do in the US.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
When I'm in France, I feel like aging is more
what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker 6 (17:26):
They have a gentler relationship with aging.
Speaker 5 (17:28):
That women are considered attractive as they age in ways.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
That we aren't here.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
I think they have a far more I think more
broadly speaking, they have a far more comfortable relationship with sex,
and that's European and not necessarily French, but that we
are still very puritan here in North America, and that
when you're there is not so rare to find older
women attractive, or that older women would consider themselves attractive.
(17:56):
And there's I notice anyway less procedures happening on faces.
But that's anecdotal and anecdotal from my New York experience
as well.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
But I definitely think they have an easier time with it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I would say I also was really inspired by just
how they live life. I mean, I would go to
dinner at ten pm and it would be a three
hour dinner, you know, And there's a slowness to life
there and a leisurelyiness that I found very appealing and
(18:29):
something that I hope I can bring back.
Speaker 6 (18:32):
I agree with you one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
And I also think France enjoyment is considered I would say,
like a human right. It's built into the legislature, essentially,
like how many days you can work, how many hours
when you retire. I always think a good example of
this is when you're unemployed. In France, you get free
access to museums, Like there is this sense that this
is like a part of life, and I think in
(18:55):
America pleasure has to be earned, like you have to financially,
but also through work, and that I think is what
we feel that when we get there is just like, oh,
this is just how the day goes.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
You don't have to justify it.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
We need to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back. Stay with us and we're back.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Glinnis, you have this theory that the female narrative is
based on the male orgasm.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Will you elaborate on that.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
I feel like the narrative structure as we understand it
for everyone is based on the you know, the male orgasm,
which makes sense when you think men were primarily and
are still primarily the storytellers and that is the fundamental
experience of life. It's sort of, you know, it's a
three act structure. It's like set it up, tension, culmination,
(19:53):
the end, and it just drops off after that.
Speaker 6 (19:55):
And I think that that happy ending.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
I mean, you can talk about the phrase happy ending
if you want to, in terms of how it gets applied.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
In a massage situation. Sometimes.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
But I think because I've struggled so many times to
convince people that the life I'm living is deserving of
a narrative because it doesn't fill the classic narrative structure
that we understand. It is always the question of, well,
how do we know that you're happy? How do we
know that you've been a success if we can't cap
this off in ways that we're familiar with that I
(20:24):
really started rethinking narrative structure and thinking, you know, what
if it didn't resemble the male orgasm, and what if
it resembled a female orgasm, which is more like waves,
and some are bigger and some are smaller, and there's
not necessarily like an end, you know, like it just
maybe it keeps going in ways and maybe the high
point is earlier and that at the very end.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
First of all, I love that analogy. I think you're right,
and I love the imagery of waves. So much of
our life looks like that. You've mentioned sort of like
the the markers of success a few times, and I'm
wondering how you measure it in yourself.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Now, I would say I came out of that trip.
That trip I sort of think, in hindsight, was like
a doorway into middle age. I was forty six turning
forty seven, and I hope this is middle age, you know,
you hope that you have another forty years. But as like,
I came through it, and I came out of it
feeling so excited and powerful and just really feeling like
(21:24):
all the warnings I'd been told about age were a lie,
and until proven otherwise, I was going to assume it
was all a lie. And so I think just maintaining
the sense of agency and optimism and trying to align
myself with my acts in a sense of like, how
(21:46):
do I exist in the world. Is that aligned with
the person I know I am to be because I'm
fully within myself. I mean, I hope everyone by the
time they get to fifty feels fully within themselves, and
I do.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
And so to maintain.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
That sort of groundedness within myself and make sure that
you know, you keep going with.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
That, which is not always easy.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
I think when you don't see any sense of yourself
reflected in the culture, it can be hard to believe
that you are enjoying yourself as much as you are
because you're not seeing a reflection of it, and you
really have to have full faith in your own experience
because there's very little to back it up.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
And maintaining that I think is really important.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
It's hard to believe that you had any doubters before
you published this book, because, oh God, I've been seeing
this book everywhere. I mean, you were on CBS Mornings,
you were on our friend Mary Jane Fahee's page. Everyone
is loving this book, and so I'm so thrilled for
you that you're getting this response. And there was this
line that really stuck out to me that you've written
that you said the thing women fantasize about the most
(22:47):
is freedom. That line really stopped me in my tracks.
What was on your mind when you wrote that? Was
there a chapter of your life that you were thinking about.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
It was a friend of mine who was researching the
history of pornography and saying, one of the reasons it's
so difficult to make pornography that appeals to women is
because women don't fantasize about sex necessarily as their greatest fantasy.
They fantasize about freedom. A funny historical anecdote is when
the two wheel bike was sort of first emerged on
(23:19):
the scene at the turn of the last century.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
It was huge for women.
Speaker 5 (23:22):
It was the first time they were able to go
places is at a chaperone. Prior to that, the only
women who were able to sort of walk alone in
the streets were sex workers who needed a license from
the city, but otherwise you needed a chaperone. And so
women were able to travel by themselves. But the men
tried to push back on women on bikes by saying
that young women might inadvertently experience an orgasm from the
(23:44):
bicycle seat, and this was their argument for not allowing
women on bikes. And I that is where that line
comes from, because I thought, I always thought, like, oh,
the orgasm that women are going to experience on these
bikes has nothing to do with the physical experience. It
has to do with like the absolute thrill of being
able to go somewhere by yourself when you want and
how you want, and that that was a possibility and
(24:06):
how thrilling that is. And in these five weeks really
for myself interrogating what that meant. And I think bigger
picture is this sense of and going back to turning
forty with this sense of, oh, you're not partners, you
don't have children, you fit the sort of stereotype of
what we believe to be sort of a failure or
(24:28):
sad woman, and really understanding that I recognized all of
the opportunity available to me, and that I was a
person who was built for the life I was leading,
and that I was so grateful to have the opportunities
I had because I was a person who could take
advantage of them in every way, not just you know
where I was born, when I was born, the education
(24:48):
I had access to, but that I was able to
run with this in a way that felt completely true
to myself and how fortunate I am that that's possible,
because God knows, there's been play any of women who
are built to live the life I'm leading and never
had the opportunity to do so. So I think it
was sort of a culmination after this trip or during
the strip, of really recognizing that I in the exact
(25:14):
life I'm supposed to be in, and thank God I
had access to a life that so fits the person
I am so completely.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
You've worked on some critically acclaimed shows. One that I
loved was Under the Influence, which looks at mommy influencer culture.
You worked on Wilder, which looked at the history of
Laura Ingles Wilder by actually traveling the US to some
of her iconic places. And what I noticed is that
both shows, as well as your books, they all focus
(25:44):
on women and the breath of womanhood.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
And so I have a very general question.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
For you, which is, where did your interest in womanhood
come from?
Speaker 5 (25:54):
I'm a writer in the place I write from is
like a place of observation, and there came a point
where you just I wanted to see some version of
my life reflected in the world. And in the case
of Wilder, the Little housebooks were, you know, pivotal to me.
There were early books I read. It's when I decided
(26:15):
I wanted to be a writer. And when we say
in the podcast we pull out my little Diary from
when I was six and.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
Being like, I want to be a writer, like Loring,
goes Wilder.
Speaker 5 (26:22):
And so I think it's more this sense of I
crave at all times narratives that reflect not just how
I'm existing, but like, my life is not that unusual.
I can look to my left and right, and I
know the dozens of women living similarly to me at
my age and making similar choices, and it's just I
just happened to be one of the people who put
(26:44):
it to paper. But the fact it feels unusual is
always so enraging to me, because I'm like, why aren't
we seeing the movies and the television shows around this?
Speaker 6 (26:52):
And so I'm always just like.
Speaker 5 (26:54):
Digging around trying to throw some version of it up
there because I'm not seeing it.
Speaker 6 (27:01):
It doesn't feel like I'm seeing it enough.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Well, Glennis, You've clearly struck a nerve with this book,
and I think that's because we all have this universal
desire to live an empowered life, as you are clearly living,
and I believe that it's never too late for women
to start living unapologetically. So when you look back on
all these rich life experiences that you've had, what is
(27:27):
the secret to liberation?
Speaker 6 (27:30):
I'm not sure I conceive of my life in these terms.
Is maybe the challenge here.
Speaker 5 (27:33):
I don't think that I'm not unusual, is the interesting thing.
When I look around, I don't actually find myself to
be that unique. I think it's a long process of
just of wanting to do what makes me feel in
charge and more powerful, and working relentlessly to align how
(27:54):
I make a living with how I want to exist
in the world, which is with as much agency and
latitude is possible. And I don't know that you know
that looks different for everyone, but it does feel to
me that at some point I stopped feeling shame around
any part of my existence. And that comes down to
(28:18):
I think there was a point where I thought, who's
benefiting from my feeling ashamed?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Right?
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Like?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
I actually think that's a good question for everyone to
ask themselves if you're feeling shame in a certain experience
or in a certain decision, like who benefits from that shame?
Speaker 6 (28:32):
Do you benefit from it?
Speaker 5 (28:34):
If there's a general sense of like, oh goodness, she's
doing what she wants, who benefits from you feeling bad
about that? Because usually not anyone who's opinion you're interested in.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I would argue, is there a word that does resonate
for you? Like I've heard people use the word untamed?
You said liberation doesn't totally hit like what feels right
for you?
Speaker 5 (28:54):
I think agency is a word that I tend to
come back to a lot. I'm able to make choices
for myself and I'm not scared to make them, and.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
That feels good. That feels successful to me.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
I love that we'll go with agency.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Then, yeah, Glennis, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 6 (29:13):
Thank you both for having me.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Thank you, Glennis.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
Glennis McNichol is a writer and the author of I'm
Mostly Here to enjoy Myself.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
You can find it wherever you get your books.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're headed to the
Olympics with American breaker Sonny Choi. She's currently training to
compete in break dancing at this summer's Paris Olympics.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Listen and follow the bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
I'm Simone Boye.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
You can find me at Simone Voice on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
That's ro Ba.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Y see you tomorrow, folks.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Keep looking on the bright side.
Host
Simone Boyce
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