February 3, 2025 • 40 mins
It can feel today like there’s no room for nuance when dealing with anyone with a different viewpoint. Luckily, nuance is Brit Barron’s specialty. She’s the author of “Do You Still Talk to Grandma?” and she’s here to explore how to honor complex relationships and embrace the gray areas in life. She discusses the power of empathy, holding space for differing perspectives, and the importance of nuanced thinking in a world that often demands binary answers.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey fam, Hello sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with
how to have those tough conversations with your family, or
maybe you've got people in your life you just can't
see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today
is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren.
She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving
us the tools to talk it through and find a
little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday,
(00:27):
February third. I'm Danielle Robe and.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on
your mind today?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have
that new year energy coursing through me. I get super
introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too,
just thinking about like where you are, where you want
to be. And I came across this article in the
Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's
all about this idea of self continuity, the link between
(00:59):
who who you are and then who you expect to be.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Ooh, what is the difference?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that
often when we look back at our former selves, we
might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe
we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that
happened to us. But actually the research shows us that
a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence
(01:25):
for our past and our present selves can help with
mental health and becoming emotionally resilient.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty
seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at
as just.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Part of my journey.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Is that what's happening here.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows
signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this
healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact
same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This
is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged
by this research you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So it's such a funny moment in your interview with
Esa about.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind.
And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this
story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in
this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it
in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my
rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to
tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my
(02:26):
favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice
writing a letter to your future self, that that can
actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
My therapist just had me do this. I had to
write a letter to Danielle in five years.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
That is so funny to me because I have felt
like burdened by this idea that I need to write
a letter to my future self not five years out,
but like a year from now, because I want to
make sure I'm still living by my values.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Then well that's nice. And also you can start with
chet and then rewrite it in your own words.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You did, you didn't actually write it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I needed a starting point.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I was like five years.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Who knows so much happens in a month.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
The second half of this exercise is actually writing a
letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah,
kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to
learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one
study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your
future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection
(03:32):
to your future self, and it also increased these student's
desire to study harder and reach their goals.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I actually I really agree with that. There's all these
studies that say that people that write down their goals
accomplish more of them.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What did you feel like you gained from this exercise?
I had.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting,
like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one
of my things this year was trying to follow the spark.
Are you gonna do this?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah. Do it in Jamaica.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
No, I want to.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I want to actually like kind of like sit down
and journal and like be in the right headspace for me.
It's it's about making sure that as busy as life
gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still
like living by the values that I committed to a
few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort
(04:42):
of like eclipse.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That is it too personal to ask what values?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Like? What do you mean values not at all values
of just being present with my family. That's that's the
main thing, you know, being present with my husband and
my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me
to keep my ambition and ego in check because I
lived and worked for so long where I kind of
(05:08):
just let those things run out ahead of me without
actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing
it in terms of values too, because you really don't
know where things will go necessarily, but you can always
live by that integrity exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know,
in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like
there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And
sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions
too from things that we need to address or confront
(05:46):
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had
his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up
to him and said, the devil comes for you your
highest moment, Yes, and that is.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very
vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of
this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can
help you live out that self continuity and that accountability
that you need to reach your future self. And when
(06:22):
I think of the people in my life who do
that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who
comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity,
about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing
some of that journey with us today.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In
her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a
queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor,
and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a
really interesting journey.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay
with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really
inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of
preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels
like there's nothing left for us to preserve.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love,
or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved
ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the
key to unlocking the transformation we want.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
That's after the break, Stay with.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to
be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good
friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me.
And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of
(07:57):
that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally
this is John Fancy and Fumal.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we
met in the trenches. We did.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going
in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we
were in for some like deep internal work. But all
we got on the bus. This is like my favorite
memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's
like meeting and talking about and I knew what we
were in for. And Simone got up and was like,
(08:34):
does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right.
Little did I know?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was in for group therapy camp where we would
be weeping together for the next four days. But it
was a magical experience and so lucky to count you
as a friend now because I turned to you all
the time for wisdom and now we get to open
it up to our bright side busties. So I want
to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you
go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up
(09:00):
very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just
fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad
school like was in the world, and when I was
only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown,
but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor
to mega church, and so you like learn all of
these skills and all of these things that you become
(09:21):
really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable.
Like I've never walked up and been like, can I
run your tech company?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I used to be a manature chest they and like,
oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment,
I found myself just sort of looking back on my
life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And
obviously I spent a long time talking like I was
a kid in school where every single report card was
talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is
why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me.
(09:48):
If I found a way to make mine I get paid,
I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do
a video. And then I just my own identity as
a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white
environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was
a pastor at the church. I was trying to do
more and more technic things, and so sort of like
(10:08):
gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking
down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making
it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I
just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non
transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a
(10:29):
transfer somewhere.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
There was a really big life event that happened, and
I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of
your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You
met your wife when you were working at that same church,
and when you both came out and shared the status
of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you
(10:52):
weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened
from there?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I spent a lot of my life just being pretty
unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a
wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church,
right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort
of like do do do?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well,
because there's so much shame around just the idea of
sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing
a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really,
I just put it on my head.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa
like and instantly fell in love and was like, this
is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you
know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning
my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So
I come to this realization and fall in love. And
we were both working at the church. She was the
creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew
(11:42):
it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes,
meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be
in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in
the sixties. This was a church in la in like
twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew
that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of
(12:04):
to love and be loved and had that experience, I
knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built
a career in. And that was really hard for me because,
like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what
am I gonna do? What job could I have? What
life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job,
it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was
(12:25):
wrapped up in church. And so I think having that
experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn
that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And
so even though that was the most beautiful experience in
my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value
now because I have been able to build a career
that is authentically my own.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How
did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that
maybe weren't challenging before.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really
important for me to learn and went on to influence
a ton of the work, even though today I was
leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being
able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and
being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of
(13:17):
the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me
with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a
trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there
were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then
there was like good things too, and so I really
wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a
good experience or was it bad? And then find myself
being like, oh, I think two things can be true,
(13:38):
and if more than one thing can be true, Like,
how does that impact how I view everything else?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm
looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't
think I'm good at that, being able to say I
have issues with this person or experience or thing, but
that doesn't mean all.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard.
It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice.
But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've
been trained to have our brains take the easiest route,
which is just all good or all bad, all one
or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now,
happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like,
(14:19):
I just need to know one thing about them so
I could decide the totality of them.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want
to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma?
It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It?
And it feels like this is the book of the
moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds,
we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this
binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this
person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we
(14:45):
constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be
able to think in the gray, just to be able
to imagine in that gray space. When did you first
realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided
as we've been told, And what was your first step
and just mantling the binary thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I mean, I always say the work of this book
started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy
because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And
I grew up really close to my parents and like
oddly like protective of them. But every time I was
in therapy and I would mention something that was kind
of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done
this differently here like this, I would immediately be like,
(15:24):
but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry,
do you think if you say something about them that
was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that,
it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them?
And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that.
I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of,
like so much of my personal work that I then
(15:45):
started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now
I see it like in social media, I see it
more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no,
only one thing is true and I'm going to figure
out which one.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think
we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even
if it was a challenging relationship.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me.
But then again, that's like us being like it's one
or the other, but it really can't be both, right,
you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical
nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed
to being parents, and I mean at the best way,
and so they were. We had a good relationship and
they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's
hard for me to talk about things that I might
be disappointed or have our time with. We were very
Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I
(16:46):
have to tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to
me are or having to do with the idea of
not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're
a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if
a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You
say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the
(17:08):
face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is
that based on experience?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest,
like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life
that we have very close relationships and a deep love
for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that
first happened with me when I left the church, and
(17:35):
I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have
a lot of people who I love deeply who still
believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something,
or that God like still hold this idea, this very
like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me
is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like,
(17:57):
oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't
like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like
this is in conset question to me. I don't know her,
like I don't know. But then we get in the
habit of doing that where it's like and this is
why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like,
we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and
college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow,
I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking,
They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who
denies my right to exist, just as an example, how
can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree
(18:37):
with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it
worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right,
because there always is a line, right, there are times
where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness.
But I think what makes it worth fighting for is
our connection to other people is why we do this,
why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and
to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us
(19:04):
most of the time than it even does for those
other people. And if our goal is to only stand
in a circle with people who agree with us one
hundred percent of the time, we are going to end
up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place
to end up standing up, because we need other people,
and so we have to take a realistic look at
our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that
I was talking to this guy and he was like
(19:26):
red in the face, telling me how he's not going
to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to
do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like
so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they
are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is
out there. He's like going on and on all these
vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that.
They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And
(19:46):
I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just
like how to ask. I was like, how long are
you going to begin? You know? He was like a year,
and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day,
like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people
in our life that are we are willing to grow
away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate.
We show our parents one tweet and then if they
(20:08):
don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had
for like decades, then we're like, you don't get it,
you don't get me, Like I'm gone, And I don't
think we give enough weight to like the connection and
to the humanity of the relationships. Not I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I also think some of my most challenging relationships have
been my greatest teachers.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
M I have a pretty ideologically diverse group of friends
that you know, are across the spectrum of beliefs, but
just being honest, Like, sometimes I feel like I'm going
to be criticized for that in today's society. Like I
feel like sometimes people are gonna be like, I can't
(20:49):
believe you hang out with this person because if you
look at if you look at their views online, they
are pretty extreme and they're very different from mine. However,
I have a lot of respect for this person because
I think they have a lot of integrity, But I
feel like people would have an issue with that, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And they probably would and do. And that's where, Gosh,
one of the things I talk about that like prompted
me to even set work in this book was like
my response when we were like waiting for the verdict
for George Floyd's murder Trap, and I was sitting in
my house and we're waiting for the verdict and then
it comes and it's guilty, and I'm like, immediately before
(21:29):
I did anything else, I picked it up my phone
and I was like, I need to post about this,
and so I was like, guilty praising emojis, and then
I was like, no, should need praise to that. I
go like and look at another activist online and she
was like, you shouldn't be celebrating Georgia should be alive.
So I'm like, oh, take the price praisans out, just guilty,
and I look at another thing. They're like, don't let
anyone tell you can't celebrate, like this is a win.
I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, praisans are back. And
then now I go to another page and then they're like,
(21:50):
this is this is justice. I kinda believe that the
same you can okay, and then like freaking out and
I'm like, what is happening? Yeah, Like at the end
of the day, I think we have a huge where
we will experiencing something and we will be doing something
that feels right to us, like this is what I
want to say. These are the people I feel comfortable
having friendships with, this is the work I could feel
(22:10):
downable doing. And then we have everyone else's voice who
isn't living that experience influencing what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So how do you approach conversation in online spaces now?
Because you write about a friend of yours who was
publicly shamed for something that she said online that many
people perceive to be racist, and you mentioned hearing the
verdict from the George Floyd trial. What do you say now,
Because it does feel like it's impossible to serve this
(22:37):
many masters.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It is, and so I think you have to decide
who are you serving, right, and you have to appropriately
take like appropriately place context and people and feedback. Right.
Like one of my best friends in the entire world
called me one time and was like, hey, just so
you know, like you're not being a good friend. And
I was like, oh, idially shut down, close the laptop.
(23:02):
I'm zoned in. I'm listening why this person has been
in my life for twenty years. Right, So she's like,
think random DM from lady in Ohio saying I don't
like the way you did that. I'm not shutting it down.
I'm just like letting that ride off, you know. And
I think we we hold so many things to the
same standard that aren't the same. I'm like, this feedback,
(23:23):
all feedback isn't the same. Yeah, giving weight where it
doesn't deserve weight.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
One of the tools that you share in how to
engage with people that you disagree with is holding space.
Holding space is a real thing, and it's it's a
therapy term too. Why do you think it's valuable to
hold space and sit with the discomfort?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, I mean I think, like you said, that's some
of our greatest learnings and teachers come from these moments.
I think if if you would have asked me ten
years ago, like my ideal life, I would have been
like everyday sunshine, every day perfect, every day grass is green.
It looks like a claritin commercial, like everything's perfect. But
when I look back in my life, those haven't been
the days that have taught me anything. They've been awesome,
(24:09):
and when they're there, I'm like, yes, I'm traping through
the flowers. But I think it's important because we have
to remember that our life is full of mutuality, and
if we don't let ourselves sit and hold space for people,
then how can we expect people to sit and hold
space with us.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So when you say hold space, just to be clear,
you mean she like, listen to someone's perspective, listen to
their work.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Here's someone's perspective. I think empathy is our greatest tool
in things like this, and I keep saying and hammering
down empathy is not an endorsement. And I think sometimes
we're afraid to empathize with people because we think, oh,
if I can empathize with you, then I'm just co
signing a new beliefs Like no, you're just humanizing that
person having that experience, and that's an important tool.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
We need to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Britt Barren. And we're back with author
Britt barn You wrote something about empathy that's really stuck
with me. You've talked about how it's so important for
us to access empathy for the earlier versions of ourselves
so that we can do the same for others. And
(25:14):
when I think about that, I think about your brother
who's a police officer, and I think about the fact
that y'all probably don't see eye to eye on certain issues. Yeah,
do you find yourself having to extend that empathy for
his points of view?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yes, yes, all the time. And again, like I am
so close to the version of myself before this one
and before that one and before that one, and sometimes
it's easy to forget because like as we grow in
of all, we feel more like ourselves. But I was like,
oh yeah, I was at church like kids, sitting in
the pew being like, oh my gosh, thank God, Like
(25:51):
I found the right way to like live right and
go to Heiman and I know all the right answers.
I remember a sense of psychological safety watching over me,
being like, oh, thank god, I found the right translation
of the right book to have the right afterlifely, you
know what I mean? Things now that I'm like what,
you know what I mean? But I remember when it
felt like to like wholeheartedly believe that and to like
(26:13):
embody that. And so when I talk to people or
like people in my life who have relations I disagree with,
sometimes I'm like, I'm just I'm gonna get a little
bit curious, like because I remember feeling so down bad
for a way of life that I now actively work against, right,
like actively fight against some of the things that I
believed like to like ten toos down for like American Christianity.
(26:38):
And now I'm like, oops, yeah, we need to fight
against it, you know what I mean. And that pendulum
swing is so helpful for me when I'm talking to people. Yeah,
like my brother who's like America police. You know the
things I'm like, I too remember how comforting it is
to feel like I am on the right side. That
(27:00):
can change the tone of the conversation. I say all
the time, I like, the work never changes for me.
I'm a person who believes in liberation for all people,
but my approach to the work changes all the time
when I access empathy, and then I start to realize
that if everyone's not avided, then it's not actual liberation.
This is all very radical, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
You know, these are radical ideas in today's society, and
this is not This is not how people offer You're
offering a different perspective, like a new way of approaching
relationships today.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Empathy isn't passive. It's actually way more radical. Staying in
relationships and coming to the table with people and working
things out in a slow, nuanced, like empathetic kind way
isn't passive. It's radical. I think what we've been doing
is absolutely polarizing, and we're seeing that play out now.
(27:50):
I'm like, we're about to come up on a chasm
that's going to be impassable, and we're about to be
so far up on our high horses on either side
that we can't even hear each other came reach each
other like we need something different and to be able
to come to the center and have conversations with people
we already know. So I'm saying, set yourself up well
for the conversations you're going into. If someone is saying,
(28:13):
I straight up hate queer people and I don't U
should exist, I'm not having a conversation with you. But
if someone is saying, like, I'm trying to reconcile this
with my faith, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, well, okay,
what about this, and we're having a real conversation, I'll
stay in the conversation. But my like, I don't think
we can ever discount how much of an impact the
(28:35):
narratives that we consume have on the conversations in our
real life.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
You reference this James Baldon quote that I love. I
imagine the reason people cling so tightly to hate is
because they fear once the hate is gone, they'll be
forced to deal with the pain. How has that language changed?
How you see the extremes that we're dealing with right now?
I mean, it's I think I see that play out
(29:01):
more now than I have at any.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Point in my life. So I try to keep hold
an empathetic lens. And that doesn't mean a life without accountability.
But I imagine, and even in that James Baldwin quote,
you have folks who have had ideologies, who have had apologies,
that have these ideas, And now I'm coming to you
and saying the thing that you've sought for sixty years
(29:25):
actually makes you fundamentally a bad person. So come on
and agree with me. Aren't you a bad person? And
so at the beginning of my career, I used to
do a lot of anti racism trainings, corporate trainings, so
you can imagine it was awesome. What year was that
when you were doing this? Oh my gosh, I started
in twenty eighteen, but then I did a lot in
(29:47):
twenty twenties. You can imagine. Yeah. And what's so interesting
is I would always urge people. I'm like, can we
just get to a point where we the term racist
isn't necessarily as pejorative as it is descriptive, Like, we
live in a society that puts out racist narratives and
you have probably consumed them. Right, if we take this
(30:08):
this isn't an individual issue. This is a systemic issue,
and the system has touched you. And so if we
could do that, then like, and I'm just trying to
open people up to this idea of like, it's going
to be painful to realize that you believed something that
wasn't necessarily true. It's goal. It's a little bit painful
to change your mind. This is what James Baldmon is
talking about. After I spent years telling girls about purity
(30:29):
culture and going on missions trips and telling people like,
oh my gosh, you know, we'll help you in this
place where you don't have enough resources, this prayer, you
know what I mean. It's painful to think about things
I did before now, and so I think it just
when I go into these conversations, I'm like, hey, you
there are some things going on in the world and
(30:50):
you may have consumed those narratives and it's okay to
change your mind, right. I think we make it so
not okay for people to change their mind, even though
we're their goal is for them to change their mind.
And I'm like, why are you making it so hard?
It's always okay to change your mind.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I love that this one rings very true to me
mending a betrayal. So I had a good friend, good
girlfriend from growing up who I found with my boyfriend. Okay, wild,
wild story. Yeah, she's still my friend all those years later,
(31:26):
he's not my boyfriend. I decided the relationship was worth keeping.
All my other girlfriends were just like a gas, like,
how could you keep her in your life? I posted
it on TikTok one point, and the internet was a blaze.
They really disagreed with me too. So I want your
opinion on betrayal. If someone seems genuinely remorseful and wants
(31:47):
to reconcile, even if it was a horrible betrayal, how
do you decide if the relationship's worth rebuilding.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's I want so many more details, but I feel like, okay,
I need to go to the TikTok a huge I
need to. I didn't think i'd need to beginning the conversation.
That's a great question, and I think a lot of
people wrestle with that point blank, shortest answer only you know.
And I think if I had a magic wand and
I could bop everybody in the world on the head
(32:15):
and give them one thing, it would be more self
trust because almost all the time we know, we know
when we need to lean and we know when we
need to step out. And I think something I talk
about even in the book is we've done a weird
thing with forgiveness where we made it feel like it's
like a moment or it always requires the person who
like did like did the betraying. And I always talk
(32:39):
about forgiveness as like an action verb, as like something
that we are actively doing. It's this ongoing process and
not this moment. And so I think as we move
through relationships with people who betrayal us, like keep a
pulse check on like that forgiveness barometer, and if we
have it, if we have it, and trust yourself, like
(33:00):
what's the internet know about the depth of your relationship.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I'd never heard anyone say that forgiveness is a verb
that is so beautiful and rings so true to me.
Even five six years later, I still find myself having
to actively forgive that I love her. Okay, partnering through change,
And I'm curious your thoughts on this, because you are married.
A lot of my friends that have long term partners,
(33:25):
those partners or my friends experience major shifts in their
identity in their beliefs in their careers. How do you
suggest navigating the tension between evolving individually and staying connected
as a couple.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I read this quote that I just loved so much,
and it was about relationships, and it said loving someone
is attending one thousand funerals of who they used to
be and one thousand birthday parties for who they were coming.
And I was like absolutely, wow. And I think in
(34:02):
partnership like that can often be just such a great
mirror to other relationships, to your own self and to
be able to celebrate and be engaged with those changes.
And I think a safe relationship that allows people to
say like, I think this is changing where I'm sensing this,
(34:22):
and you don't go like, well that's not who I
marri And you get to go like, oh, I'm curious
about that. I want to know more than I think.
You know, you set that foundation because it's all going
to change, it's all supposed to change, it's all meant
to change, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
So when it gets into the nitty gritty of like
practical application of all this, obviously that's work. It's a
lot tougher, Yeah, especially when you're when you're trying to
navigate between Okay, is the thing that I have a
problem with? Is it someone's behavior or is it a
belief that I hold m that's core to their DNA.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
So how do you know when to set form boundaries?
That's a great question. I think when it comes to boundaries,
something I like to always say is that boundaries should
always be like set and then reassessed, like this should
be a constant like thing that we do. And so
if you're not sure, if you're like, what's happening? Is
(35:15):
this the belief is this? Take some space. If you
can't hold space, take space is something I say all
the time, like, just take some space. I think sometimes
we think that the options are go no contact with
our family or stay permanently at the table now like
there is such a wide world in between, and so
set boundaries for whatever you need as you need them,
(35:37):
and then reassess. I think during a heightened political season,
during a heightened emotional season, during a heightened creative season,
my boundaries all change. If I'm writing a book, I'm like,
good luck hearing from me. They shift and change. And
the strongest boundary I have in my life, without question,
is with information. Rights with the news, it's with social media,
(35:59):
it's with like things that I can really that impact
my life. I think with relationships it's the same. I
think I was just talking to something about this who
was like, I don't want to like cut my family off,
but like, okay, it's just too much, like it thinks
to me, is too much. And I was like, Oh,
don't don't go that's this. These little boundaries are in
a sign that we're like throwing in the white towel.
(36:21):
It's giving us more confidence for when we do show up,
that we are showing up in the way that we want.
It's not like advantageous to be like, oh, I'm just
going to force myself to stay at the table, give
yourself some space, and then get back in there.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
As we step into this new year, and maybe someone
listening is thinking about mending fenses with someone in their life,
or even trying to hold on to a bond that
feels really difficult, what is your advice for them? What
is step one? That's a great question. I feel like
step one is to always ask yourself if you are
(36:59):
willing and ready to do what it would take to
either keep that connection or men's that connections. I think
sometimes we just don't have it, and that's okay, and
sometimes we really are willing, but you have to know
whether or not you are in that space. I think
I had a friend, she was my best friend at
(37:22):
the time that I got married, and I asked her
to be a brides and early wedding as one does,
and she said yes, and then when it really came
down to it, she said no because we were two
women getting married, and she worked at a church and
there was a lot of things, and this was like
my best friend and someone I loved dearly, and we
tried really hard to keep that connection for a while,
and then we just couldn't, like we just couldn't do it,
(37:45):
like we didn't have it, and we didn't talk for
about four years. A year and a half ago, we
met up for lunch and we were just such different people,
and we have become such different people that we had
everything we needed that we just didn't have four years ago.
And now we like talk every day again, and all
my best friends WHOA And so I think sometimes urgency
(38:08):
is our greatest enemy. It's okay to have space. Everything
doesn't have to happen right now in one conversation in
one season. I'm super grateful that we didn't talk for
four years, because we wouldn't have been able to have
the relationship we have now if I would have just
like ripped my teeth through everything that bothered me that
I knew I couldn't get.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Past in the moment.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
That was so wise, Britt, Before we go, how do
you exercise your curiosity on the daily? What do you
do to keep that muscle firing?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Oh? Great question. You can't give what you don't have,
and so I always try to use it on myself. First.
I am endlessly curious about every emotion that comes up.
I think I used to live in a world in
a mindset where I'd be like, oh, I'm feeling this. No,
I'm not like, shove that down, shove that down. I
think being curious about myself first makes me realize how
(39:03):
absolutely vast every single human being is that at any moment,
I am feeling a multitude of things. I'm like, why
am I feeling angry? I'm like, wait, no, what's the
day to day? Like? Oh my gosh, two years ago
I had this really hard thing. Is my body remembering that? Oh?
Should I bake this? Breadway, I kind of missed my dog. Wait, no,
that conversation my mom was kind of weird. Right, No,
that's me And that was thirty seconds this morning, right.
(39:26):
And so I think when I allow myself to be
generous to like all the nuanced eye hold, then I
can serve to hold it for somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Thank you so much for joining us on the right side,
brit Thanks for having me. Britt Baron is the author
of Do You Still Talk to Grandma? It's available wherever
you get your books.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by five
time Olympic medalist Mary and Jones. She's here to talk
about overcoming failure and moving forward from past mistakes. You
don't want to miss this.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and
feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Hey fam, Hello sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today on the bright side. If you've been struggling with
how to have those tough conversations with your family, or
maybe you've got people in your life you just can't
see eye to eye with, we have got you. Today
is the show for you. Joining us is Britt Barren.
She's a pastor and a master of nuance who's giving
us the tools to talk it through and find a
little more common ground with the ones we love. It's Monday,
(00:27):
February third. I'm Danielle Robe and.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I'm Simone Boyce, and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
All Right, Simone, it's on my mind Monday. What's on
your mind today?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Girl? Well, we're starting a new month. I still have
that new year energy coursing through me. I get super
introspective this time of year, which I'm sure you do too,
just thinking about like where you are, where you want
to be. And I came across this article in the
Washington Post that really made an impact on me. It's
all about this idea of self continuity, the link between
(00:59):
who who you are and then who you expect to be.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Ooh, what is the difference?
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Okay, Well, to start the Washington Post piece says that
often when we look back at our former selves, we
might kind of cringe at how we once acted. Maybe
we were immature, maybe we reacted poorly to something that
happened to us. But actually the research shows us that
a sense of coherence and kind of respect or reverence
(01:25):
for our past and our present selves can help with
mental health and becoming emotionally resilient.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Are you saying that those emails I sent in twenty
seventeen that feel incredibly cringey I need to look at
as just.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Part of my journey.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Is that what's happening here.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
The fact that you're still thinking about it actually shows
signs of emotional resilience and that you do have this
healthy sense of self continuity. And I am the exact
same way I ruminate on my most embarrassing moments. This
is like my hobby. I'm really encouraged. I'm really encouraged
by this research you.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
So it's such a funny moment in your interview with
Esa about.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
That this is the This is exactly what comes to mind.
And in the interview with Esa, I tell her this
story about how I was like so embarrassed, like in
this instant of social awkwardness, and I keep replaying it
in my mind. But apparently this is healthy. Apparently my
rumination is healthy. At least that's what I'm going to
tell myself. But I will say, Danielle, one of my
(02:26):
favorite parts of this article is this suggestion to practice
writing a letter to your future self, that that can
actually be a way to better understand this self continuity idea.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
My therapist just had me do this. I had to
write a letter to Danielle in five years.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
That is so funny to me because I have felt
like burdened by this idea that I need to write
a letter to my future self not five years out,
but like a year from now, because I want to
make sure I'm still living by my values.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Then well that's nice. And also you can start with
chet and then rewrite it in your own words.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You did, you didn't actually write it.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
I needed a starting point.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I was like five years.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Who knows so much happens in a month.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
The second half of this exercise is actually writing a
letter back from the future self you want to be Yeah,
kind of mind blowing, right, And I was surprised to
learn that there's actually research around this practice. In one
study conducted with high school students, letter writing to your
future self lowered anxiety, fostered a greater sense of connection
(03:32):
to your future self, and it also increased these student's
desire to study harder and reach their goals.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
I actually I really agree with that. There's all these
studies that say that people that write down their goals
accomplish more of them.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What did you feel like you gained from this exercise?
I had.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
It actually made me very hopeful and it felt exciting,
like it gave me that spark of possibility. And one
of my things this year was trying to follow the spark.
Are you gonna do this?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yes, as soon as I find the time, I'm gonna
do it.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Yeah. Do it in Jamaica.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
No, I want to.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
I want to actually like kind of like sit down
and journal and like be in the right headspace for me.
It's it's about making sure that as busy as life
gets and as busy as work gets, that I'm still
like living by the values that I committed to a
few years ago. And yeah, just not letting things sort
(04:42):
of like eclipse.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
That is it too personal to ask what values?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Like? What do you mean values not at all values
of just being present with my family. That's that's the
main thing, you know, being present with my husband and
my kids. And it's really like an exercise for me
to keep my ambition and ego in check because I
lived and worked for so long where I kind of
(05:08):
just let those things run out ahead of me without
actually being intentional about how I wanted to live my life.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
That's really really nice. Yeah, I like how you're framing
it in terms of values too, because you really don't
know where things will go necessarily, but you can always
live by that integrity exactly.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And it's like best case scenario, things do go, you know,
in a direction that I'm super happy with, but like
there's a lot that comes with that, you know, And
sometimes our greatest goals or dreams can also be distractions
too from things that we need to address or confront
(05:46):
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
I'll never forget. At the Oscars, after Will Smith had
his moment of you know, and Denzel Washington went up
to him and said, the devil comes for you your
highest moment, Yes, and that is.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Exactly what it is. It's really true. Yeah, you're very
vulnerable at that summit. Well, I think Another element of
this conversation Danielle is surrounding yourself with people who can
help you live out that self continuity and that accountability
that you need to reach your future self. And when
(06:22):
I think of the people in my life who do
that for me, my friend Britt Baron is someone who
comes to mind. She is always thinking about perspective, about integrity,
about nuance, about character, and she's going to be sharing
some of that journey with us today.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
She's a pastor turned author and a keynote speaker. In
her first book, Worth It chronicles her journey as a
queer woman growing up in the church, becoming a pastor,
and then ultimately choosing a new path, which is a
really interesting journey.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, that experience was I think she would be okay
with me saying, you know, life altering, and it really
inspired her to think more deeply about the importance of
preserving relationships with family and friends, even when it feels
like there's nothing left for us to preserve.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Her latest book, Do You Still Talk To Grandma?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Is for anyone feeling disappointed by the people that they love,
or for anyone who struggles to connect with those loved
ones who may be on opposite sides of an issue.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Sound familiar to anybody. You're not going to.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Want to miss this conversation. Britt truly could be the
key to unlocking the transformation we want.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
That's after the break, Stay with.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Us, Welcome to the bright side. I'm so happy to
be here. You guys are giggling because I'm very good
friends with Britt. She's like a family member to me.
And it's so funny whenever you take someone out of
(07:57):
that environment and bring them into your professional environment, like.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
We like, looks Simone at work. Oh yeah, we're formally
this is John Fancy and Fumal.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
We should explain how we met Ooh yes, okay, we
met in the trenches. We did.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
We met on a wellness retreat that I knew going
in what the wellness meant, and I knew that we
were in for some like deep internal work. But all
we got on the bus. This is like my favorite
memory of you. We got on the bus and everyone's
like meeting and talking about and I knew what we
were in for. And Simone got up and was like,
(08:34):
does anyone know about SPA treatments? That sounds about right.
Little did I know?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I was in for group therapy camp where we would
be weeping together for the next four days. But it
was a magical experience and so lucky to count you
as a friend now because I turned to you all
the time for wisdom and now we get to open
it up to our bright side busties. So I want
to explore your backstory a little bit. How did you
go from pastor to author and educator. I grew up
(09:00):
very religious in the Evangelical Church, and then like just
fully committed, went to Christian College, went to Christian grad
school like was in the world, and when I was
only twenty six, which at the time I felt grown,
but now I'm like a child. I became a pastor
to mega church, and so you like learn all of
these skills and all of these things that you become
(09:21):
really good at your job, but they don't necessarily feel transferable.
Like I've never walked up and been like, can I
run your tech company?
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I used to be a manature chest they and like,
oh amazing, right, right. So coming out of that environment,
I found myself just sort of looking back on my
life and being like, what skills have I acquired? And
obviously I spent a long time talking like I was
a kid in school where every single report card was
talk too much, talks about no. I'm like, this is
why we were friends. Yeah, and now like, can't stop me.
(09:48):
If I found a way to make mine I get paid,
I'll talk all right, Oh bake, I'll talk, I'll do
a video. And then I just my own identity as
a person of color. I grew up in predominantly white
environments and worked in predominant white environments, and I was
a pastor at the church. I was trying to do
more and more technic things, and so sort of like
(10:08):
gained a lot of skills around talking and like breaking
down these big ideas around diversity, equity, inclusion and making
it feel like tangible and like attainable, and so I
just parlayed that into a career. Very cool. The non
transferable skill is so real, Yeah, trying to find a
(10:29):
transfer somewhere.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
There was a really big life event that happened, and
I want to hear how that changed the trajectory of
your career as both a pastor and a speaker. You
met your wife when you were working at that same church,
and when you both came out and shared the status
of the relationship with your bosses at the church, you
(10:52):
weren't met with the reception that you wanted. What happened
from there?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I spent a lot of my life just being pretty
unaware of my own sexuality, right, which isn't like a
wild thing. I think when you grow up in the church,
right if, even if you're not queer, you're just sort
of like do do do?
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Right, Like, it's best to just not address that at all. Well,
because there's so much shame around just the idea of
sex exactly. So you're like, I'm like, okay, I'm doing
a kind of a good job, just like nothinking. Really,
I just put it on my head.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
But then I met Sammy and I was like whoa
like and instantly fell in love and was like, this
is okay, my life makes so much sense now, you
know what I mean? Why was pil Dockey camp meaning
my favorite week of the year because I'm gay? So
I come to this realization and fall in love. And
we were both working at the church. She was the
creative rector and I was a pastor, and we knew
(11:42):
it was not affirming, so meaning it was not LGBTQ affirming. Yes,
meaning you couldn't be gay and work there or be
in leadership. And no, I'm not talking about Alabama in
the sixties. This was a church in la in like
twenty fifteen. And so when I came out, I knew
that choosing Sammy and choosing myself and choosing sort of
(12:04):
to love and be loved and had that experience, I
knew that would mean dismantling the world I had built
a career in. And that was really hard for me because,
like I said earlier, I was thinking around, like, what
am I gonna do? What job could I have? What
life could I have? Because it wasn't just my job,
it was also my network and comedian friends. Everything was
(12:25):
wrapped up in church. And so I think having that
experience and realizing that ultimately like I had to learn
that just because something's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And
so even though that was the most beautiful experience in
my life, it was incredibly difficult, but something I value
now because I have been able to build a career
that is authentically my own.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
You've referred to yourself as a master of nuance. How
did you discover nuance in navigating these challenging relationships that
maybe weren't challenging before.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
I mean, I think one giant lesson that was really
important for me to learn and went on to influence
a ton of the work, even though today I was
leaving that experience that became very hurtful, but not being
able to throw the whole thing out, So leaving and
being like, oh my gosh, that was probably one of
(13:17):
the hardest experiences of my entire life and left me
with some deep trauma parts of which I unpacked a
trauma camp. But then I was like, oh, but there
were also these beautiful moments that I had, and then
there was like good things too, and so I really
wrestled with like, Okay, which one's true? Was it a
good experience or was it bad? And then find myself
being like, oh, I think two things can be true,
(13:38):
and if more than one thing can be true, Like,
how does that impact how I view everything else?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
What you're saying is so hard to do, Like, I'm
looking really deep inside myself right now, and I don't
think I'm good at that, being able to say I
have issues with this person or experience or thing, but
that doesn't mean all.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Of it is bad. No, it's really hot it's really hard.
It's really hard, and it requires a lot of practice.
But at the same time, I'm like, I think we've
been trained to have our brains take the easiest route,
which is just all good or all bad, all one
or the other right, which is what we're seeing right now,
happen like everywhere. Right you see a person, You're like,
(14:19):
I just need to know one thing about them so
I could decide the totality of them.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because I want
to talk about your book. Do you still talk to Grandma?
It's a follow up to your first book, Worth It?
And it feels like this is the book of the
moment right now, because as we scroll through our feeds,
we are just bombarded with what you're talking about, this
binary thinking. This group is right, that group's wrong, this
person's good, this person's bad, And it feels like we
(14:45):
constantly have to be intentional and fight just to be
able to think in the gray, just to be able
to imagine in that gray space. When did you first
realize that the world wasn't quite as neatly as divided
as we've been told, And what was your first step
and just mantling the binary thinking.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
I mean, I always say the work of this book
started in my own therapy journey. I was in therapy
because I was unpacking my relationship with my parents. And
I grew up really close to my parents and like
oddly like protective of them. But every time I was
in therapy and I would mention something that was kind
of disappointing, like I wish my parents would have done
this differently here like this, I would immediately be like,
(15:24):
but they're really good people, and my favorites was like, sorry,
do you think if you say something about them that
was disappointing or her full or you wish she had that,
it's erases every good thing you've ever said about them?
And I was like, yes, I do, I do believe that.
I don't believe that. And that was the beginning of,
like so much of my personal work that I then
(15:45):
started to like notice everywhere I saw it, and now
I see it like in social media, I see it
more than I've ever seen it, and where it's like, no,
only one thing is true and I'm going to figure
out which one.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
It's particularly hard with parental relationships, though, because I think
we feel like a sense of duty and gratitude, even
if it was a challenging relationship.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, because then you're like, but they did everything for me.
But then again, that's like us being like it's one
or the other, but it really can't be both, right,
you know, I'm like so grateful. My parents are incredible.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Were you raised in a home that was that stereotypical
nineties authoritative, fear based parenting or was it different from that?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
No, I wouldn't say that. My parents were so committed
to being parents, and I mean at the best way,
and so they were. We had a good relationship and
they were very like open wooming, and that's why it's
hard for me to talk about things that I might
be disappointed or have our time with. We were very
Christian though, like we were in it. Yeah. Yeah, I
(16:46):
have to tell you.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Some of the most intriguing parts of your work to
me are or having to do with the idea of
not letting relationships go. We hear, particularly online if you're
a TikTok GIRLI you hear this a lot that if
a relationship does not serve you, let it go. You
say that you believe quite the opposite, even in the
(17:08):
face of fundamental disagreements, close relationships are worth preserving. Is
that based on experience?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yes? Absolutely, yeah, I think we all have to be honest,
like probably since twenty sixteen, have people in our life
that we have very close relationships and a deep love
for and hold deep disappointment. And so I think that
first happened with me when I left the church, and
(17:35):
I'm like finding myself in this identity. And I have
a lot of people who I love deeply who still
believe that it was wrong or that the Bible says something,
or that God like still hold this idea, this very
like problematic idea. And I think what's hard for me
is online if someone says something you don't like, I'm like,
(17:57):
oh my gosh, Blake Lively tweeted something and I didn't
like it. I'm like, oh, I just unfollow her, like
this is in conset question to me. I don't know her,
like I don't know. But then we get in the
habit of doing that where it's like and this is
why the book is called Use with Grandma, because I'm like,
we have grandparents and parents and cousins and partners and
college roommates who say one thing and then we're like, oh, well, I.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Could just be done with you now, and I'm like, wow,
I hear the Internet's voice in my head. Is you're talking,
They're saying yes. And when somebody voted for someone who
denies my right to exist, just as an example, how
can I still maintain that relationship? I actually really agree
(18:37):
with you, but I'm curious what you think makes it
worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I've gotten a ton of pushback and appreciate it, right,
because there always is a line, right, there are times
where you're like, okay for your own safety and goodness.
But I think what makes it worth fighting for is
our connection to other people is why we do this,
why we're here, and our ability to hold nuance and
to hold empathy in those relationships does more for us
(19:04):
most of the time than it even does for those
other people. And if our goal is to only stand
in a circle with people who agree with us one
hundred percent of the time, we are going to end
up standing alone. And that is probably the worst place
to end up standing up, because we need other people,
and so we have to take a realistic look at
our expectations for relationship. I'm like, I keep joking that
I was talking to this guy and he was like
(19:26):
red in the face, telling me how he's not going
to his family's Thanksgiving because they're not like going to
do vegan Thanksgiving and she's a vegan and he's like
so serious about it, and he's like, they're animals, they
are scenting and beans. We know this, the research is
out there. He's like going on and on all these
vegan facts and he's like, my family doesn't respect that.
They don't respect me, Like I'm out, you know, And
(19:46):
I'm like that's crazy, you know, And now I just
like how to ask. I was like, how long are
you going to begin? You know? He was like a year,
and I'm like, okay, listen. At the end of the day,
like we have backstory and backstory and contact with people
in our life that are we are willing to grow
away over conversations that haven't even had time to marinate.
We show our parents one tweet and then if they
(20:08):
don't radically change their entire political identity that they've had
for like decades, then we're like, you don't get it,
you don't get me, Like I'm gone, And I don't
think we give enough weight to like the connection and
to the humanity of the relationships. Not I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I also think some of my most challenging relationships have
been my greatest teachers.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
M I have a pretty ideologically diverse group of friends
that you know, are across the spectrum of beliefs, but
just being honest, Like, sometimes I feel like I'm going
to be criticized for that in today's society. Like I
feel like sometimes people are gonna be like, I can't
(20:49):
believe you hang out with this person because if you
look at if you look at their views online, they
are pretty extreme and they're very different from mine. However,
I have a lot of respect for this person because
I think they have a lot of integrity, But I
feel like people would have an issue with that, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
And they probably would and do. And that's where, Gosh,
one of the things I talk about that like prompted
me to even set work in this book was like
my response when we were like waiting for the verdict
for George Floyd's murder Trap, and I was sitting in
my house and we're waiting for the verdict and then
it comes and it's guilty, and I'm like, immediately before
(21:29):
I did anything else, I picked it up my phone
and I was like, I need to post about this,
and so I was like, guilty praising emojis, and then
I was like, no, should need praise to that. I
go like and look at another activist online and she
was like, you shouldn't be celebrating Georgia should be alive.
So I'm like, oh, take the price praisans out, just guilty,
and I look at another thing. They're like, don't let
anyone tell you can't celebrate, like this is a win.
I'm like, oh my gosh, okay, praisans are back. And
then now I go to another page and then they're like,
(21:50):
this is this is justice. I kinda believe that the
same you can okay, and then like freaking out and
I'm like, what is happening? Yeah, Like at the end
of the day, I think we have a huge where
we will experiencing something and we will be doing something
that feels right to us, like this is what I
want to say. These are the people I feel comfortable
having friendships with, this is the work I could feel
(22:10):
downable doing. And then we have everyone else's voice who
isn't living that experience influencing what we're doing.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
So how do you approach conversation in online spaces now?
Because you write about a friend of yours who was
publicly shamed for something that she said online that many
people perceive to be racist, and you mentioned hearing the
verdict from the George Floyd trial. What do you say now,
Because it does feel like it's impossible to serve this
(22:37):
many masters.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It is, and so I think you have to decide
who are you serving, right, and you have to appropriately
take like appropriately place context and people and feedback. Right.
Like one of my best friends in the entire world
called me one time and was like, hey, just so
you know, like you're not being a good friend. And
I was like, oh, idially shut down, close the laptop.
(23:02):
I'm zoned in. I'm listening why this person has been
in my life for twenty years. Right, So she's like,
think random DM from lady in Ohio saying I don't
like the way you did that. I'm not shutting it down.
I'm just like letting that ride off, you know. And
I think we we hold so many things to the
same standard that aren't the same. I'm like, this feedback,
(23:23):
all feedback isn't the same. Yeah, giving weight where it
doesn't deserve weight.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
One of the tools that you share in how to
engage with people that you disagree with is holding space.
Holding space is a real thing, and it's it's a
therapy term too. Why do you think it's valuable to
hold space and sit with the discomfort?
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Yeah, I mean I think, like you said, that's some
of our greatest learnings and teachers come from these moments.
I think if if you would have asked me ten
years ago, like my ideal life, I would have been
like everyday sunshine, every day perfect, every day grass is green.
It looks like a claritin commercial, like everything's perfect. But
when I look back in my life, those haven't been
the days that have taught me anything. They've been awesome,
(24:09):
and when they're there, I'm like, yes, I'm traping through
the flowers. But I think it's important because we have
to remember that our life is full of mutuality, and
if we don't let ourselves sit and hold space for people,
then how can we expect people to sit and hold
space with us.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
So when you say hold space, just to be clear,
you mean she like, listen to someone's perspective, listen to
their work.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Here's someone's perspective. I think empathy is our greatest tool
in things like this, and I keep saying and hammering
down empathy is not an endorsement. And I think sometimes
we're afraid to empathize with people because we think, oh,
if I can empathize with you, then I'm just co
signing a new beliefs Like no, you're just humanizing that
person having that experience, and that's an important tool.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
We need to take a quick break, but we'll be
right back with Britt Barren. And we're back with author
Britt barn You wrote something about empathy that's really stuck
with me. You've talked about how it's so important for
us to access empathy for the earlier versions of ourselves
so that we can do the same for others. And
(25:14):
when I think about that, I think about your brother
who's a police officer, and I think about the fact
that y'all probably don't see eye to eye on certain issues. Yeah,
do you find yourself having to extend that empathy for
his points of view?
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yes, yes, all the time. And again, like I am
so close to the version of myself before this one
and before that one and before that one, and sometimes
it's easy to forget because like as we grow in
of all, we feel more like ourselves. But I was like,
oh yeah, I was at church like kids, sitting in
the pew being like, oh my gosh, thank God, Like
(25:51):
I found the right way to like live right and
go to Heiman and I know all the right answers.
I remember a sense of psychological safety watching over me,
being like, oh, thank god, I found the right translation
of the right book to have the right afterlifely, you
know what I mean? Things now that I'm like what,
you know what I mean? But I remember when it
felt like to like wholeheartedly believe that and to like
(26:13):
embody that. And so when I talk to people or
like people in my life who have relations I disagree with,
sometimes I'm like, I'm just I'm gonna get a little
bit curious, like because I remember feeling so down bad
for a way of life that I now actively work against, right,
like actively fight against some of the things that I
believed like to like ten toos down for like American Christianity.
(26:38):
And now I'm like, oops, yeah, we need to fight
against it, you know what I mean. And that pendulum
swing is so helpful for me when I'm talking to people. Yeah,
like my brother who's like America police. You know the
things I'm like, I too remember how comforting it is
to feel like I am on the right side. That
(27:00):
can change the tone of the conversation. I say all
the time, I like, the work never changes for me.
I'm a person who believes in liberation for all people,
but my approach to the work changes all the time
when I access empathy, and then I start to realize
that if everyone's not avided, then it's not actual liberation.
This is all very radical, you know.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
You know, these are radical ideas in today's society, and
this is not This is not how people offer You're
offering a different perspective, like a new way of approaching
relationships today.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Empathy isn't passive. It's actually way more radical. Staying in
relationships and coming to the table with people and working
things out in a slow, nuanced, like empathetic kind way
isn't passive. It's radical. I think what we've been doing
is absolutely polarizing, and we're seeing that play out now.
(27:50):
I'm like, we're about to come up on a chasm
that's going to be impassable, and we're about to be
so far up on our high horses on either side
that we can't even hear each other came reach each
other like we need something different and to be able
to come to the center and have conversations with people
we already know. So I'm saying, set yourself up well
for the conversations you're going into. If someone is saying,
(28:13):
I straight up hate queer people and I don't U
should exist, I'm not having a conversation with you. But
if someone is saying, like, I'm trying to reconcile this
with my faith, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, well, okay,
what about this, and we're having a real conversation, I'll
stay in the conversation. But my like, I don't think
we can ever discount how much of an impact the
(28:35):
narratives that we consume have on the conversations in our
real life.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
You reference this James Baldon quote that I love. I
imagine the reason people cling so tightly to hate is
because they fear once the hate is gone, they'll be
forced to deal with the pain. How has that language changed?
How you see the extremes that we're dealing with right now?
I mean, it's I think I see that play out
(29:01):
more now than I have at any.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Point in my life. So I try to keep hold
an empathetic lens. And that doesn't mean a life without accountability.
But I imagine, and even in that James Baldwin quote,
you have folks who have had ideologies, who have had apologies,
that have these ideas, And now I'm coming to you
and saying the thing that you've sought for sixty years
(29:25):
actually makes you fundamentally a bad person. So come on
and agree with me. Aren't you a bad person? And
so at the beginning of my career, I used to
do a lot of anti racism trainings, corporate trainings, so
you can imagine it was awesome. What year was that
when you were doing this? Oh my gosh, I started
in twenty eighteen, but then I did a lot in
(29:47):
twenty twenties. You can imagine. Yeah. And what's so interesting
is I would always urge people. I'm like, can we
just get to a point where we the term racist
isn't necessarily as pejorative as it is descriptive, Like, we
live in a society that puts out racist narratives and
you have probably consumed them. Right, if we take this
(30:08):
this isn't an individual issue. This is a systemic issue,
and the system has touched you. And so if we
could do that, then like, and I'm just trying to
open people up to this idea of like, it's going
to be painful to realize that you believed something that
wasn't necessarily true. It's goal. It's a little bit painful
to change your mind. This is what James Baldmon is
talking about. After I spent years telling girls about purity
(30:29):
culture and going on missions trips and telling people like,
oh my gosh, you know, we'll help you in this
place where you don't have enough resources, this prayer, you
know what I mean. It's painful to think about things
I did before now, and so I think it just
when I go into these conversations, I'm like, hey, you
there are some things going on in the world and
(30:50):
you may have consumed those narratives and it's okay to
change your mind, right. I think we make it so
not okay for people to change their mind, even though
we're their goal is for them to change their mind.
And I'm like, why are you making it so hard?
It's always okay to change your mind.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I love that this one rings very true to me
mending a betrayal. So I had a good friend, good
girlfriend from growing up who I found with my boyfriend. Okay, wild,
wild story. Yeah, she's still my friend all those years later,
(31:26):
he's not my boyfriend. I decided the relationship was worth keeping.
All my other girlfriends were just like a gas, like,
how could you keep her in your life? I posted
it on TikTok one point, and the internet was a blaze.
They really disagreed with me too. So I want your
opinion on betrayal. If someone seems genuinely remorseful and wants
(31:47):
to reconcile, even if it was a horrible betrayal, how
do you decide if the relationship's worth rebuilding.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
That's I want so many more details, but I feel like, okay,
I need to go to the TikTok a huge I
need to. I didn't think i'd need to beginning the conversation.
That's a great question, and I think a lot of
people wrestle with that point blank, shortest answer only you know.
And I think if I had a magic wand and
I could bop everybody in the world on the head
(32:15):
and give them one thing, it would be more self
trust because almost all the time we know, we know
when we need to lean and we know when we
need to step out. And I think something I talk
about even in the book is we've done a weird
thing with forgiveness where we made it feel like it's
like a moment or it always requires the person who
like did like did the betraying. And I always talk
(32:39):
about forgiveness as like an action verb, as like something
that we are actively doing. It's this ongoing process and
not this moment. And so I think as we move
through relationships with people who betrayal us, like keep a
pulse check on like that forgiveness barometer, and if we
have it, if we have it, and trust yourself, like
(33:00):
what's the internet know about the depth of your relationship.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
I'd never heard anyone say that forgiveness is a verb
that is so beautiful and rings so true to me.
Even five six years later, I still find myself having
to actively forgive that I love her. Okay, partnering through change,
And I'm curious your thoughts on this, because you are married.
A lot of my friends that have long term partners,
(33:25):
those partners or my friends experience major shifts in their
identity in their beliefs in their careers. How do you
suggest navigating the tension between evolving individually and staying connected
as a couple.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
I read this quote that I just loved so much,
and it was about relationships, and it said loving someone
is attending one thousand funerals of who they used to
be and one thousand birthday parties for who they were coming.
And I was like absolutely, wow. And I think in
(34:02):
partnership like that can often be just such a great
mirror to other relationships, to your own self and to
be able to celebrate and be engaged with those changes.
And I think a safe relationship that allows people to
say like, I think this is changing where I'm sensing this,
(34:22):
and you don't go like, well that's not who I
marri And you get to go like, oh, I'm curious
about that. I want to know more than I think.
You know, you set that foundation because it's all going
to change, it's all supposed to change, it's all meant
to change, you know.
Speaker 3 (34:33):
So when it gets into the nitty gritty of like
practical application of all this, obviously that's work. It's a
lot tougher, Yeah, especially when you're when you're trying to
navigate between Okay, is the thing that I have a
problem with? Is it someone's behavior or is it a
belief that I hold m that's core to their DNA.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
So how do you know when to set form boundaries?
That's a great question. I think when it comes to boundaries,
something I like to always say is that boundaries should
always be like set and then reassessed, like this should
be a constant like thing that we do. And so
if you're not sure, if you're like, what's happening? Is
(35:15):
this the belief is this? Take some space. If you
can't hold space, take space is something I say all
the time, like, just take some space. I think sometimes
we think that the options are go no contact with
our family or stay permanently at the table now like
there is such a wide world in between, and so
set boundaries for whatever you need as you need them,
(35:37):
and then reassess. I think during a heightened political season,
during a heightened emotional season, during a heightened creative season,
my boundaries all change. If I'm writing a book, I'm like,
good luck hearing from me. They shift and change. And
the strongest boundary I have in my life, without question,
is with information. Rights with the news, it's with social media,
(35:59):
it's with like things that I can really that impact
my life. I think with relationships it's the same. I
think I was just talking to something about this who
was like, I don't want to like cut my family off,
but like, okay, it's just too much, like it thinks
to me, is too much. And I was like, Oh,
don't don't go that's this. These little boundaries are in
a sign that we're like throwing in the white towel.
(36:21):
It's giving us more confidence for when we do show up,
that we are showing up in the way that we want.
It's not like advantageous to be like, oh, I'm just
going to force myself to stay at the table, give
yourself some space, and then get back in there.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
As we step into this new year, and maybe someone
listening is thinking about mending fenses with someone in their life,
or even trying to hold on to a bond that
feels really difficult, what is your advice for them? What
is step one? That's a great question. I feel like
step one is to always ask yourself if you are
(36:59):
willing and ready to do what it would take to
either keep that connection or men's that connections. I think
sometimes we just don't have it, and that's okay, and
sometimes we really are willing, but you have to know
whether or not you are in that space. I think
I had a friend, she was my best friend at
(37:22):
the time that I got married, and I asked her
to be a brides and early wedding as one does,
and she said yes, and then when it really came
down to it, she said no because we were two
women getting married, and she worked at a church and
there was a lot of things, and this was like
my best friend and someone I loved dearly, and we
tried really hard to keep that connection for a while,
and then we just couldn't, like we just couldn't do it,
(37:45):
like we didn't have it, and we didn't talk for
about four years. A year and a half ago, we
met up for lunch and we were just such different people,
and we have become such different people that we had
everything we needed that we just didn't have four years ago.
And now we like talk every day again, and all
my best friends WHOA And so I think sometimes urgency
(38:08):
is our greatest enemy. It's okay to have space. Everything
doesn't have to happen right now in one conversation in
one season. I'm super grateful that we didn't talk for
four years, because we wouldn't have been able to have
the relationship we have now if I would have just
like ripped my teeth through everything that bothered me that
I knew I couldn't get.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Past in the moment.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
That was so wise, Britt, Before we go, how do
you exercise your curiosity on the daily? What do you
do to keep that muscle firing?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Oh? Great question. You can't give what you don't have,
and so I always try to use it on myself. First.
I am endlessly curious about every emotion that comes up.
I think I used to live in a world in
a mindset where I'd be like, oh, I'm feeling this. No,
I'm not like, shove that down, shove that down. I
think being curious about myself first makes me realize how
(39:03):
absolutely vast every single human being is that at any moment,
I am feeling a multitude of things. I'm like, why
am I feeling angry? I'm like, wait, no, what's the
day to day? Like? Oh my gosh, two years ago
I had this really hard thing. Is my body remembering that? Oh?
Should I bake this? Breadway, I kind of missed my dog. Wait, no,
that conversation my mom was kind of weird. Right, No,
that's me And that was thirty seconds this morning, right.
(39:26):
And so I think when I allow myself to be
generous to like all the nuanced eye hold, then I
can serve to hold it for somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Thank you so much for joining us on the right side,
brit Thanks for having me. Britt Baron is the author
of Do You Still Talk to Grandma? It's available wherever
you get your books.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
That's it for today's show. Tomorrow, we're joined by five
time Olympic medalist Mary and Jones. She's here to talk
about overcoming failure and moving forward from past mistakes. You
don't want to miss this.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Join the conversation using hashtag the bright Side and connect
with us on social media at Hello Sunshine on Instagram
and at the bright Side Pod on TikTok oh, and
feel free to tag us at simone Voice and at
Danielle Robe.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Listen and follow The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
See you tomorrow, folks, Keep looking on the bright side.
Host
Simone Boyce
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