May 27, 2025 • 46 mins
Sarah Spain is an Emmy winner, an ESPN trailblazer, and the creator of the first daily women's sports podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain. She's also proof that being pushed out of your “dream job” isn’t the end -- it’s often the beginning of something bigger. In the season two premiere of The Bright Side, Sarah opens up about what it means to be a woman who contains multitudes in a world that wants to you to shrink. We talk about chasing big dreams, creating lasting change in women's sports and the power of owning every part of your story.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to an all new season of the bright Side.
On today's premiere, we're talking to Emmy winning sports journalist
Sarah Spain. She's opening up about chasing big dreams, facing
even bigger crossroads, and what it really means to evolve
in the public eye. It's time to get real about ambition,
fear of failure, and trusting yourself to start again.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Either you're the hot girl, or you're the funny girl,
or you're the smart girl. And I think for women especially,
there is this feeling of we cannot view you as
anything other than what we decided you are.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine, Hello bright Side besties. We are back, baby,
we are so back. Season two is finally here, and
I cannot tell you how good it feels to finally
be able to say that I.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Have missed you all so much.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's been wonderful to keep in touch with some of
y'all on social media. Let's keep doing that, please, because
I love hearing from you. I'm at some voice on everything.
So in our last episode we mentioned that we are
going to be taking a little Hot Girl pause, and
during that time that gave us some space to reflect
and really think about how we can be even more
(01:13):
intentional about bringing you the fun, uplifting, smart, empowering conversations
that you love here on the bright Side. And if
you've been rocking with us from the beginning, you know
the bright Side has been your daily dose of optimism,
joy and transformation. And this season, we are going to
be diving even deeper into that conversation as we lean
(01:35):
into the joy of becoming, so you'll be hearing real
conversations about confidence, self care, friendship, entrepreneurship, health and wellness.
We're talking to women who have made bold moves or
small shifts and everything in between, and we're giving ourselves
permission to dream a little differently, because ultimately, growth isn't
(01:59):
about becoming someone else, It's about becoming more of who
we already are. All right now, for some updates, The
bright Side is officially a weekly show now, y'all. Every Monday,
we're going to be starting our week with uplifting conversations,
thought provoking, perspective shifts and interviews that spark the inspiration
that I know we're all looking for right now. Plus,
(02:20):
we've got an incredible lineup of celebrity guests, those laugh
out loud moments and hot takes on all of the
pop culture moments that everyone is talking about. I'm sure
a lot of you are like, Okay, Simon, this is
great and all, but where's my girl Danielle. Well, on
that note, we've got some really amazing news at Hello Sunshine.
We are actually expanding our podcast portfolio and Danielle is
(02:43):
hosting an all new show. But I don't want to
be the one to tell you about it, so let's
go ahead and welcome my OG co host and bright
Side bestie, Danielle Samoud. I missed you. I missed you too.
It's so good to see your face. I know.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm so happy to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
How are you. I'm doing well. I feel powerful right now.
I just got down with a hard workout, so that's good.
Been trying to take care of myself, you know. I
think having a little bit of a break was so
good for me mentally. It was like really rejuvenating. I
dug into like my creativity and writing and journaling. So
I'm feeling really good. How about you? What have you
been up to?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You know what, I'm somewhere between thriving and googling how
to become a goat farmer in Tuscany, Like every day
is sort of different. No, I'm I've been decorating my apartment.
I've been cooking a little bit. I've been dating a lot.
Say what I didn't say, I've been cooking. Well, but
I've been cooking.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, Like, what are we throwing down in the kitchen?
What are we working with here?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Eggs?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Who're cooking eggs? Okay, we're cooking salmon. I learned how
to make rice. I bought a rice cooker. Didn't know
the cooker could do it for you.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's like next level cooking. I do microwave Trader Joe's rice.
So I can't even talk.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, that's delicious rice? Is I learned? I didn't know.
It's been really fun. I feel like I'm nesting a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, Danielle, give us the tea girl. What can you
tell us about this new show?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well, first of all, let me just say I'm gonna
mishosting the bright side this season with you. But I
am also really really excited because the brand new show
is coming out next month.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And I can't.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Say too much yet. But what I can say is
that this show is going to dive into a world
that we all know and love. Like when I say love,
I mean love, okay, And I'm going to be talking
to people that shape culture. And here's the thing that
I'm most excited for. This is not just a show
for you, It's a show with you. You have a
(04:40):
seat at the table. We're gonna all have so much
fun together. I know I'm being so weird and top secret,
so I can't wait to share more details with you soon.
So keep listening to the bright Side and follow along
on social media.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I met Danielle robe.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Definitely follow at Hello Sunshine, and you'll have all the
updates soon.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Well, we cannot wait to hear more. You know will
be rooting for you all the way. And it has
been so much fun to get back on the mic
with you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Congrats on the premiere. This is major.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, y'all, It is time to get this episode started.
We told you we put a lot of thought into
how we wanted to kick off this new season, and
we've been really intentional about who would set the tone
for the kinds of conversations that we want to have together.
And I told you, I told you, I wanted to
go deeper with you this season, and we're doing that
today with someone who embodies main character energy. And I'm
(05:32):
not talking about the overused trendy way, No, I'm talking
about somebody who takes big swings, who wipes out and
still finds the audacity to get back up. Someone who
has stared down rejection, fear of failure, and that relentless
inner critic and chose to trust yourself anyway. Someone who
refuses to shrink or let the world put her in
(05:54):
a box. Someone like Sarah Spain. You probably know Sarah
from ESPN, from her razor sharp commentary on sports and culture,
or maybe just from being one of the smartest voices
in the media game right now. She's been a fixture
at ESPN for over a decade, across platforms like Around
the Horn, Highly Questionable, and Spain and Fits. She's also
(06:15):
an Emmy winner and a Peabody winner, Okay, a longtime
advocate for women in sports and equity and media, which
is one of the reasons why she created Good Game
with Sarah Spain, the first daily podcast dedicated to women's sports,
and most recently, she's the author of the new book
Runs in The Family, which follows the real life story
of Delan McCullough, a father of four and accomplished football
(06:36):
coach whose world gets turned upside down when he learns
the truth about his family history. Y'all, I knew going
into this conversation that Sarah and I were going to
have a few things in common. I personally know what
it's like to climb through the ranks of the media
industry only to be met with constant rejection and also
confronting the reality that there are going to be suits
and gatekeepers at every turn who want to keep you
(06:57):
in a box and make you stay in your lane.
But what I did I didn't expect was how candid
Sarah was about her setbacks and low points, and that
honesty was so liberating. It was so refreshing to hear,
and it really inspired me not to fear those moments,
but to embrace the freedom that comes on the other side.
(07:18):
All Right, it's time to hype up the ultimate hype woman.
Here's my conversation with Sarah Spain. Sarah Spain, Welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Congratulations on your book Runs in the Family. You got
the most epic co sign from our very own Reese
Witherspoon on your story that this book is based on.
And here's what Rees said. Okay, she said, quote had
me in tears. It made me believe in fate, the
power of family and divine intervention. And this is the
best part. You know, this is the best part, she said.
(07:51):
And it's so well written. I mean, you can't ask
for more than that.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
She wrote about it on every platform. She posted on Instagram, Twitter,
like LinkedIn, wherever, Facebook, every single place she posted something
so nice when it came out, and it was like, honestly,
like my cheeks hurt from smiling. I was like, oh
my god, did reason I just become best friends. I'm
still working on that part, but yeah, and so it
was such a nice boost and like really awesome commentary
(08:17):
from folks like that when we first did the story
for ESPN, where I think a good little boost to
get you know, a book along the way. And so
now I'm really excited for everyone to read the bigger,
more full story.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Hey, she is the Queen of books, so I know
kind of endorsement does not hurt. What is your superpower
as a storyteller and how do you think it's on
display in this book.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I would say it's two. I would say one is empathy.
I have a real desire to understand why people are
the way that they are. And I think as I've
gotten older, especially, I've become particularly interested in how people's
lives have been different from mine, the pathologies that people
get from the family systems in which they grow up,
or the interactions that they have with loved ones, friends, lovers, whoever.
(09:06):
I think it's a better way to go through life
to tell yourself a story about how people got to
be who they are instead of just being angry or judgmental.
And so, as I get older and I study more
about psychology, sociology, all the different things around just kind
of why people are who they are, it makes me
try to better understand people's choices instead of judging them.
(09:28):
And so, particularly in a book like this that has
these really complicated ideas of people who are dating, abuse
of men, or men with drug problems, people who are
struggling to pay the bills or maybe aren't making healthy choices,
you can write a book like that and be up
high on a hill and say, well, I never struggled
with that, so that was a bad choice instead of
trying to understand how they got to where they are.
(09:48):
So I think the empathy was huge for this one.
And then the other one is synthesizing ideas. I use
this across all my jobs, podcasting, radio, writing, TV. Essentially,
how do I get this thing that I want to
say or this thing someone else and put it into
the right words to best express it. And for writing,
I think, gosh, I should knock on wood. But I
just never got writer's block during the book, And I
(10:10):
think part of that is like my brain just naturally
wants to take ideas and find a way to make
them almost fit a puzzle and get across the themes
or the stories or the anecdotes that I wanted to
make sure we're in there. So I think those two
superpowers were super helpful.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, I'll say, and you are the envy of writers
everywhere whoever.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Probably wringing their hands.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Experiencing writer's block right now.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It probably jinks myself.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Speaking of synthesizing, would you just synthesize the story of
Runs in the Family for us?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So long story short. Dylan mccullugh is currently the running
backs coach for the Las Vegas Raiders. He grew up
in Youngstown, Ohio, right after the industrial collapse, so really
tough time. There are a lot of people without jobs.
Oftentimes he was without electricity or hot water. His family
really struggled because his adoptive dad left when he was two,
So now he's sort of doubly rejected by father. Figures
(11:02):
growing up with a single mom who's trying to make
it work for him and his brother Damon. He gets
into football, ends up getting recruited by a handful of people,
including a Youngstown fellow named Sherman Smith who had made
it good at the NFL level, who recruits him to
go to Miami, Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries
to go to the NFL, gets injured, eventually gets into
teaching and then coaching, and along the way starts a family.
(11:23):
Has four sons, doesn't know anything about his medical history,
doesn't know anything of his birth family, but as he
gets older with his kids, he decides he's interested, and
eventually the laws change in Pennsylvania, where he was born.
He can find his birth certificate, finds his mom within
like a day on Facebook. She never got married, never
had kids. She's been looking for him she's so excited
to find him. And now forty five years later, he asks,
(11:46):
do you know who my dad is? It's not a
my birth certificate, and she tells him and it's someone
that's been in his life for almost thirty years. And
the dad never knew either because he was never told
about the baby. So it's just a really incredible storied,
such a feel good story. But also I really wanted
to make sure it wasn't just about him. It was
a story anybody could find themselves in to try to
(12:07):
understand what's passed down via DNA versus what's passed down
via family systems, generational trauma, language and messaging, and how
we get to decide what do we want to keep
with our family, even backwards to our parents. Is that
relationship serving us? Is that choice serving us? Or can
we decide to change? And how those are interwoven with
the things that were genetically handed that we can't choose.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Well, you clearly lead with empathy and curiosity, and I
think those are sister traits. They go hand in hand,
especially in the field of journalism, and in that field
you've worked across radio, television, podcasts, writing. What skill came first?
Or which one feels most like you at your.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Core talking my poor parents, I just happen yeah, but professional? Yeah?
Or since birth? Actually, it took me a little while
to start talking, and then once they did, they were like,
holy go. I remember literally, like nine or ten years old,
asking my parents if you can get paid to talk
for a living, and they were like, no, that's not
a job. And I'm like, found one genius.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I've been a professional yapper for many years now, and
I wish I had had the foresight to just speak
it into existence at such a young age. Apparently I
manifested it. Look at us now, I know we made
it work.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
But the curiosity aspect too, you know, I've always wanted
to do everything, try everything, do everything. I was in
band Chorus three, sports Talent Show, went to college, I
was a heptatholate, which is literally the track event where
you don't pick one thing, you do all seven of them.
And then in ESPN and in my career podcast, national radio, writing,
(13:45):
producing television, like all the things, and so I think
the curiosity to know how to do something and to
try it, and then to understand why people are the
way they are and get to know them. Those are
a part of wanting to be like a journalist and
explores stor worries.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
What is it about challenging yourself in all these different
arenas that thrills you? Like why why do you think
you do it? And why do you think you go
after everything so hard?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I have a lot of life fomo. But it's not envy,
if that makes a sense. Like I saw an interview
with someone the other day and it totally clicked for me,
and they said, when I see someone having success at something,
I think I would be great at, I have envy.
There are plenty of times when I see people doing
great things and I'm just happy for them. But if
(14:32):
I'm happy for someone and there's a little bit of
envy and means it might be meant for me. And
I think that's how I felt growing up watching a
lot of stuff like oh I think I could do that,
and I think I could do it, well, let me
try it. But yeah, I mean I think also, I'm
pretty fearless. It's interesting. I feel fearless when I'm in control,
and the older I get, the more I recognize that
I do have issues with control. The first time I
(14:54):
do anything, I'm nervous because I'm like, wait, okay, where
do I sit? What will the chair look like? Which
TVM looking at what's this question going to be? Like?
How is this? And then after one time that's it.
Not nervous again, Totally fearless, practically naive. Won't even think
about the fact that tons of people are watching it,
something terrible could go wrong. It just doesn't phaze me.
So I think it's a naive fearlessness with like just
(15:17):
a little twinge of needing to, you know, settle in.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That was a perfect self diagnosis that.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You could tell me reading a lot of books for
this book about like therapy trauma.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And we've got to take a short break, but more
from Sarah after the break and we're back with Sarah Spain. So,
considering that you have this zest for life and this
life fomo, I want to hear what success looked like
(15:48):
to you when you were just starting out. So can
you take me back to that overachiever, younger version of
yourself who just graduated from Cornell where you were co
captain of the track and field team and a HATA athlete.
What was baby Sarah chasing at that moment in time?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, Right after Cornell, I was still chasing my first dream,
which was most of my life and still you know,
in the background, even though it's not realistic at this point,
which was to be on Saturday Night Live. My dream
was to be an actress and comedian and performer. But
because I was doing all the sports and all the things,
it was always conflicting with like the school play and
other things like that. So I took some acting classes
(16:24):
at Cornell, I moved home to save up a little money,
and then I moved to La worked in a restaurant.
Like every stereotype says, did auditions, did acting classes, did
the Second City improv Conservatory. And it wasn't until I
took a TV hosting boot camp and the teacher had
us focus on something that we are an expert on
to practice and I was like, my expertise is like literature.
(16:46):
I was an English major, so that's not going to
be on a show. So I did a fake Chicago
Bears show. I just always been a sports fan and
an athlete. And the teacher said, oh, you want to
work in sports. It's like, no, there's no women in sports,
and I want to be funny and the only women
are like supermodels on the sidelines like Aaron Andrews. And
she said, well, it just seems natural you could try it.
So I took a class in TV sports reporting at UCILI,
(17:07):
and I was like, Oh, this is so many things.
The writing, the extemporaneous thinking, the interview skills come out
of improv my knowledge base having been a three sport
athlete my whole life. I always think of that when
I consider the fact that literally when they say you
can see, if you can see it, you can be it,
I never saw it. There were no women doing sports
(17:27):
in Chicago growing up, and it was just not really
considered an option. I think it's a good quality that
I have that I don't have grudges and I don't
get stuck in any place. But that also means when
I look back, I'm sure I have a much rosier
view of like what it was like back then. I
(17:49):
think I really thought I had something and I was
so terrified no one else thought that too. But I
was really insecure about what I look like. I've never
been as skinny as most of the people on TV,
despite being a heptathlete, Like my body type is just
not twig and so I was so worried watching who
was making it and thinking, Oh, they really just care
about what women look like. So my first job was
(18:12):
this fantasy football show that was just like those online
pop ups that used to pop up when you would
go to a sports site back in the wild wild
West of like very misogynist sports blogs, and it was like, Hi,
I'm your fantasy sports girl Sarah with this week's fantasy
football tips. And I had to wear like cleavage tops,
and like that was a big break. I was in
(18:32):
like Jim Rome's two million dollar studio with ESPN producers,
and that was the only way I could get in,
was like doing the stereotypical bs sexy stuff. Meanwhile I
was trying to do. I was filming my own fake
sketches for my hosting reel that were all like comedic
and silly and ridiculous, and I think that was I
(18:52):
think if you asked young me, I would never dream
of a single thing I've accomplished. And that's what I
tell myself every time I get an opportunity and I'm
scared to take it, is what I have said. I'm
gonna win it Emmy or a Peabody or get to
be on TV, or do Around the Horn, or have
my own show, or literally anything I've accomplished. I wish
I could say I was that kind of dreamer. I
always believed I had something, but I don't think I
(19:14):
ever was brave enough. I'm very afraid of failure. So
if I never say the thing that I want and
put it out there, then I never have anyone who
could say, you said you wanted this and you didn't
get it. You failed. That's so real.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Okay, Wait, I have to rewind because there's so much
there that I want to unpact so much that you
said I want therapy. So this show where you felt
like you were hyper sexualized when you were talking about sports.
What year was that, Uh, probably two thousand and five
because I remember also kind of becoming an on camera
(19:49):
personality around that time, and it was a different time
then that was really accepted, and that was a way
that you could get a foothold in the industry was
if you did kind of like a second your spin
on content.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
All the women in my business from that time remember that. Yeah,
we always had to be like, I'm a guys girl.
Most of my best friends are like the only way
to be accepted in sports was essential to be like,
don't worry, I'm not actually a woman. I'm just a
hot chick who's a dude inside. And like I talk
about that a lot when it comes to the evolution
(20:23):
of women's sports. Yeah, because we don't have to apologize
for being different. It's part of the authenticity that people enjoy.
And when we stopped having to pretend like we were
just like the guys, but you know, women, we got
to be funnier and more comfortable and villains and heroes
(20:43):
and masculine and feminine and queer and straight and all
the multi dimensional things that we let male sports athletes
and media be. And it was so restrictive and limiting
that it wasn't ajoyable. And then we open up the
door to let it be free, and it's like, oh,
this works.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
And you hinted at this, but there you've expectations around
what a funny woman looks like.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, or whether women should be funny, whether women are
funny exactly, famous articles from Christopher Hitchins why women aren't funny,
And there's a lot of studies of if a woman
is attractive, we don't want you to make yourself less
attractive in order to be funny. Your number one value
is your looks, and you're trading on that when you
(21:24):
become funny. And I have found that restrictive at every
point in my career. So when I first went back
to Chicago, I was working for a startup website and
I brought a ton of my improv stuff to it,
and I was just having fun with player personalities and
bringing some creativity to it. And it was very hard
to make sure that like, I'm being funny, but never
in any way that could be misconstrued as sexual, because
(21:44):
people are already pushing all their opinions and their feelings
of sexuality onto you at every turn, and so at
every turn you're constantly like kind of trying to look
ahead and be like, oh, what's someone going to say
about this? Or how are they going to perceive this?
And I was blindsided a million times by something I
did or said that somehow somebody made sexual when that
wasn't my intention, And it really prevents you from being
(22:05):
creative in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I was also blindsided by this perception that you can't
be smart and funny at the same time, Like I
experienced this in my career as a news journalist. It's
like people are just incapable of holding space for women
to be more than one thing. And this is something
that I was saying the drum about just embracing our multitudes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Couldn't be more true. I used to talk about this
all the time. It was the idea of like, we
have to put you in one box. Either you're the
hot girl, or you're the funny girl, or you're the
smart girl. And I found that early in my career too,
because I was doing like radio updates that were sort
of light and fun. And then I started working for
espnW and I was covering everything from silly stuff to
very serious stories about domestic violence and sexual assault. And
(22:52):
I knew how to be in different places as different
versions of myself and to bring the right approach and attitude,
but not everyone else did. And I think for women especially,
there is this feeling of we cannot view you as
anything other than what we decided you are. And your
point about especially attractive women, I think of someone like
(23:12):
George Clooney's wife, or Michelle Obama, or like people who
are so unbelievably impressive, and instead it's like, but she
looks great in that dress or nice arms.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, it's it's never ending, so I think you just
have to tune it out and do you.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, like the Nike ad says you can't win, so
just win, So just win.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, I want to get into the ESPN chapter of
your career, and it starts in this unexpected way because
I hear that you initially auditioned for ESPN and didn't
get the job right away. I love stories like this.
Can you tell me what happened next?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah? So I was living in la at the time,
flew out for the audition, didn't get the job, and
I was wanting to take the next step in my
sports career. Got a job at Fox Sports Net this
is precursor to FS one, and was working behind the scenes,
but started doing those little fan show started writing for
blogs for free just to get some content up, and
started taking auditions and meetings, and I flew back to Chicago.
(24:08):
I took two weeks off to see if do I
want to try to work in Chicago where I know
the team's best because that's where I grew up. And
a friend of mine had a connection at a startup website,
So I ended up moving back to Chicago to work
for that place, Mouthpiece Sports, And it was from there
that I eventually got started at local ESPN radio, added
on writing for espnW, working for espnW and then national
(24:29):
radio around the Horn Sports Center. You say all the
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, so just like hustling your way in there, getting
a foot in the door.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
So you were there for about fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Right, Yeah, I think I'm close to fifteen ish.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, and you're still you're still working with ESPN, just
in a reduced capacity.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yep, working with the espnW, so just focused on the
women's sports stuff, hosting a lot of their conferences and stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So I'm thinking back to when you gain a foothold
inside and esteemed instant like that. There are moments that
remind you that all of your hard work was worth it.
And I can remember jumping from local news to national
news and finally having a fancy coffee machine at the
office and being like, oh, I've really made it. Like
(25:15):
they're paying for my coffee now. This is the best.
What are the pinchbe moments that you still think about
from your time there, Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
There's a couple. So one was I just wanted to
write on my tax forms sports reporter as my job
instead of you know, like a bunch of other things
or like waitress, because that's where most of the money
was coming from. Like, yeah, I was really excited when
I could just put journalists as my occupation. Another one
was my very first job, which now that I think
(25:44):
about it, it's really not a huge deal, but at
the time it felt like such a big deal was
the update anchor at ESPN one thousand, which is ESPN Radio,
and so every fifteen to thirty minutes, I would hop
on and be like, hello and welcome to your Sports
Center Update. I'm Sarah Spain. Tonight the Chicago Cubs take
on the Cincinnati Reds Easter. But the thing that made
me like go crazy was the Sports Center music would
(26:05):
play before I started, so it'd go da da da na, Yeah,
this is Sarah's mane with your sports and I was like,
oh my god, it's basically like I'm on Sports Center,
which it wasn't, but it felt like it. And to
be associated with the brand of ESPN in any way,
I was like, oh, I'm doing it. And then you know,
I always called Jamel Hill my fairy career godmother, and
there were a couple great mentors that I've had along
(26:27):
the way, but she in particular. I was at an
espnW summit, which is these three day conferences. I was
a total nobody. I was not involved in the programming
hardly at all. But I had one thing that I
did on stage and Jamel said, you know, you're really
great on stage. You should be doing TV. Why aren't
you doing TV? And I said, well, back at home
in Chicago, I did like a local show, but I
(26:49):
haven't done much for ESPN. I've done one or two
sports center hits and that's it for the Blackhawks, and
I think they're just not ready. They haven't seen enough tape.
And she said, well, next time i'm off with my show,
I'm going to suggest that host. And I was like, okay, sure,
And then about a month or two later, they gave
me the call. I flew out to Bristol. I hosted
a live hour show with Michael Smith. Used to be
(27:10):
called Numbers Never Lie and then became His and Hers.
And within that one show, Keith Oberman show calls me
outside the lines, calls me I just had to prove myself,
and so that pinched me moment of like somebody saw
me and thought I could do this, and then put
me on the air and I did. I did a
whole live national TV show. I was like, I can
do this, And so I always think about Jamel and
(27:32):
try to think about how I can be that person
for other people.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That is really really cool. It's so great to hear that,
and clearly Jamel is a girl's girl, like that's that's
very meaningful when another woman stands in the gap for
you like that. Yeah, were there moments in during those
years where you were getting closer and getting closer where
you ever questioned what you were doing and felt like
giving up.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Not in the sports world. I did feel that way
about comedy and acting, particularly because I did not really
enjoy the scene. And you hear about the casting couch,
and it's very true, and unfortunately the sports world is
not a fix for that. I was the victim of
harassment on multiple occasions in the sports world too, But
it felt like there was a more objective way to succeed,
(28:16):
like if you know your stuff, if you get really
good at it, you can succeed in spite of those people.
And so I think with the acting and comedy, I
never felt like I really was cooking with gas. And
then when I started in the sports world, it felt
so natural and it felt like, Oh, you're good at this,
this is where you should be. And so I never
(28:37):
really lost hope or had enough of a drought in
that to think like, oh, this isn't going to work. Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So you're at ESPN for a while and then eventually
it sounds like something kind of shifted within you, and
I'm curious how you decided to give yourself permission to
distance yourself from that original vision of your dream job
and dream a bit differently.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, it was. It was a little bit of choice
and a lot of a shove. Actually. So I had
been doing national radio in some capacity for thirteen years,
from updates to hosting, and for seven straight years I
was doing nighttime national radio, and I took a ton
of pride in being a woman who was on the
(29:23):
slate which didn't exist other than me in representing for
women in that way. But it was feeling less satisfying.
It was feeling super ephemeral to get on the air
every night for two to three hours and have whatever
I said float away and usually be the biggest hits
of the day. We certainly throughout the various iterations of
my shows, tried to talk about other things, meaningful things,
(29:44):
women's sports, social issues like I really tried to make
the show a lot more than just playing the hits,
But I understood that there were limitations for that medium
in that space, and I had other projects that when
I did them and I put my time and effort
into them, I saw a lot of six with whether
that was the E sixty and the feature reporting I
did for Runs in the Family the First Time, or
(30:05):
a PSA I did called More Than Mean that ended
up winning a bunch of awards, including a Peabody, And
it felt like as long as I had radio every
single night, it was really going to prevent me from
spending time on things and making them great. Part of
radio that's great is it is immediate. You get your
feedback right away, there's a community, you have time to talk.
But it's an imperfect science because it's off the top
(30:26):
of your head. When you really take your time with
a feature, you can edit and turn it into the
piece that you want. And I wanted a little bit
more of that. So I had been talking to the
radio side about trying to get out of radio and
figure out to do more of the other stuff, and
a particular executive there decided he was just going to
have me be gone altogether. And so after thirteen years,
(30:47):
with two weeks notice, after they hadn't responded to a
lot of calls from my agent, he told me they
were just not going to resign me. And after our meeting,
he said he had spoken to them and there wasn't
a lot of interest in keeping me because he said, oh,
without the radio, you don't have much. I said, I
have E sixties Sports Center, my podcast, writing, ESBNW, all
these shows that asked me to do more, and I
(31:07):
haven't had time to do more. I was filling it
at ESPN Daily and some other stuff. And he said,
oh yeah, I called around. There wasn't a lot of interest.
I said, hmm. So I called my bosses. How is
your call with him? They said what call? I said,
that's what I thought, So just you know, I'm not
being re signed and they were furious, and they worked
to find a position for me at the company outside
of his department, but because he oversaw so much of
(31:29):
what I worked on, it really limited what I could do.
So it was a shove that was completely unexpected, and
I think I was very grateful that I had been
hosting a podcast for years, talking to people at times
about their worst times or their unexpected moments much more
severe than me being pushed out of a job that
(31:51):
I still really liked. It was people who suffered catastrophic injuries,
people who lost loved ones, people who are outright fired
and had no I do what to do next? And
I remember in those moments, while interviewing them, I would
ask myself, how would you react to this? And my
very honest answer to myself was terribly. You have been
through nothing. Your life has been privileged. You have been
(32:14):
so lucky in every way, and a lot of that
is good choices you've made and working hard and being kind,
but a lot of it is just luck and the
privilege of mental health from your family and a great upbringing.
And so time to start thinking about how you will react,
because it's not going to be this perfect forever. Something
will happen. And it wasn't cynical and I wasn't waiting
for the other shoe to drop. It just afforded me
(32:36):
the opportunity to think about if something were to change
in this idyllic life I had made. What would I
do about it? And so when that happened, I gave
myself a couple of days to be angry and sad
and feel sorry for myself and scared about what was
coming next, because ESPN is the top of the mountain.
And then not only did I fight to make sure
I got to go out a little bit more on
my own, on my own terms by working for another
(33:00):
year in a handful of capacities. And now the last
couple of year or two has spent just espnW, where
I'm still working with people I love working with about
something I care about. But I also took that time
to look at what I wanted and why I was
moving away from radio, what was going to be satisfying.
I think I had always wanted to do a lot
of intersection of sports and social issues because it felt
a little absurd to make a lot of money and
(33:21):
have a job where I'm just talking about people playing games.
It made me feel guilty almost that people who do good,
meaningful work are working harder, or making less money or
living a less privileged life than someone who's just like
going on TV and being like hell of a dunk
so I always tried to find ways to make it
feel more meaningful. And when this happened, I sat down
and thought, what do I actually want to spend my
(33:42):
time on? And I knew it was women's sports. How
can I use the career I built and the influence
I have on something that feels media and more meaningful
and more genuine to something I've cared about my whole
career and tried to intersect with my whole career. And so, yeah,
I got a shove. I'm doing awesome Ever since that shove.
I would never lie and say that I wouldn't have
(34:03):
been perfectly happy if they'd let me stay on that path.
I think I would have, But things are different at
ESPN now too, and looking at it from a farm,
I'm not sure how happy i'd be if I was
there full time.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I so respect the transparency with which you told that story,
because that's that is not easy to be. It is
not a small thing to be pushed out of a
dream job, and I'm sure it was extremely painful. So
I just really appreciate your vulnerability around sharing that story.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
You've got to be honest. It's not that I was
dishonest when it first happened, I just was more vague
because I was really embarrassed. Like I talked about before,
I'm like terrified of failure. It felt like a failure.
I'd never had that before, and I was so glad.
I had talked to so many successful people who had
had failures or who had been let go or who
(34:54):
had had things not go their way, so I could
not have it be a referendum on me, and frankly,
I knew it wasn't. I was crushing my work. My
bosses were so angry that this executive had made this decision.
It was not about me. And still I could figure
out how to learn from it and pivot and figure
out what was next in a positive way, and try
to figure out, like, because I'm a creature of habit
(35:17):
and I don't like change because of the whole control thing,
how can I use this shove as an organic way
to move into something new and something like the book
that I've always wanted to do and never had time
for because I had a million jobs at ESPN. How
do I stop procrastinating on something I've said I always
want to do and just like do it, use the
time to do it and so that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Well, that's actually what I wanted to ask you next.
Do you think that you would have had the courage
to launch your podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain if
you hadn't been shoved out.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
It's certainly one of many nudges I'm getting from the
universe about taking bigger swings and being less afraid to fail.
So as far as the podcast goes, I pitched multiple
women's sports things to ESPN over the course of my
fifteen years. Sometimes they even got all the way to
looking at the budget. How many people would you need
(36:08):
on staff all that stuff. I brought sponsors to the
table that were ready to work on it, and it
just hasn't been a priority for them. And I don't
know if I would get fed up eventually and leave
to do it, or if I would have just been
happy bringing women's sports into as many spaces as I
was because it was scary and I'm still scared of
(36:28):
those leaps, So I don't know if I would have
done that. As for the book, when we did the
story for E sixty and the written piece, movie and book,
people came running when it went viral, and we thought
we'd do the movie first, and then the book, and
then also the publisher that came was fine. The main
one that came was fine, but it wasn't a huge advance.
And we thought, let's do the movie first and then
(36:48):
we'll put the stars of the movie on the book cover.
The book will be bigger, all that stuff. And then
we were pitching the movie during COVID and then during
the strike. So we've sort of been on hold with
the movie for the last four years or so. Now
we're going to re up the pitches with the book.
But I have to tell this quick story. So my
husband and I were in New York at this time.
I was just out we had renegotiated an extra three
(37:11):
months of my contract because I was hosting an event.
I was interviewing the president of the company, like I
had all these jobs that the executive didn't even ask
about before he tried to kick me to the curb,
and we were like, oh, do you want me to
stick around to host this giant conference and interviewed the
president of the company, and or oh you do okay? Cool? Well,
maybe if you'd passed around at all, you would know
I'm sort of booked and busy for your company. But
(37:34):
so I had this couple months that was sort of
like dead weight. I knew I was out, but I
was working. And my husband and I went to the
US Women's National Team Players Association ball in New York,
and we were walking around that day before the event,
and we walked by the New York Public Library and
everyone raised about how it's got these big, beautiful, fancy rooms.
So we're like, oh, let's pop our heads in. And
we looked into one room and people were diligently working
(37:56):
away in their computers. And I said, oh, I really
missed that, and he's like, well, I'm like, I miss
like having a big project. We're just like right in
all day, sitting with your coffee, like you know. And
he's like, that's crazy. I went to the bathroom. I
checked my phone walking out of the bathroom, and I
see an email from my agent at CAA that says,
the woman who really wanted your book has left for
Simon and Schuster and came back around and wanted to
(38:18):
revisit the idea of writing it. And I said that
to my husband and he's like, there you go. I'm
like what, He's like, there's your project? And I was like,
oh my god, is that what manifesting is? You just
like go take a whiz and come back and the
universe gives you exactly what you said you wanted in
like five minutes. Are you sure that's how it goes? Yeah? Yeah.
And so first of all, I did not have time
(38:39):
to write a book before. But also it was like, hey,
you are asking the universe for what's next. You are
asking what will feel valuable and meaningful to you. You're
asking what will be satisfying. And you have always wanted
to do this, and this is a project that's right
in your lap. And so I really couldn't even be
afraid of failing. I couldn't even be like, oh, I'm
not going to do that. It was just I had
(38:59):
to do it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your podcast. But
first a quick break. Your podcast, Good Game with Sarah
Spain is the very first daily women's sports podcast. I mean,
that's huge. You've also you've won awards from iHeartRadio for
social impact for this show, and you've really taken listeners
(39:21):
along for the ride as we've seen this surge of
engagement and investment in women's sports. What's one moment from
building good game that made you stop and say, yeah,
this is why we did it.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Well, that's tough. We interview so many people. This show
has been so awesome to have the green light and
the support and the funding and the interest to have
a daily women's sports show that they've sent me to Spain,
the NWSL finals, south By Southwest, the super Bowl, the
Final four, all Star weekend and putting the money in
(39:55):
interest and effort behind the details in women's sports, because
I really think that's all we've been missing is giving
people enough information to care. Like we do such a
good job in men's sports of telling you what everybody
fricking ate for lunch, and then in women's sports it's
like here's a highlight, all right, see you later. So
I knew we needed to give people the stories and
stakes and stats and stars so that they could know
enough to want to come watch. And I think the
(40:15):
biggest through line across the former athletes that we've had
on the show, because we have everybody from media to athletes,
to executives to sponsors, but the athletes is especially they're
retired ones. They say, I just wish there was more
of a connection between owners in front office and the athletes,
because the pyramid in men's sports very clearly puts the
men at the top. They are the product, they are
(40:37):
the value, they are the stars. They are served and
catered to, and they are the product that makes everyone
below in the pyramid money. And on the women's side,
it is still in some ways set up where the
players are somewhere in the middle and they are not
listened to and respected, and they aren't treated the right way,
and they aren't rewarded in the right way. And it's
(40:57):
not just monetarily, but in the setup of their leagues,
in the response to what they're looking for and the
way that they want to be coached and served and led.
And so I love hearing from former players who are
getting into ownership or front office roles and helping connect
those two sides.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
So we are launching a new season of our show,
The bright Side. So the concept of new beginnings is
on my mind. What are three Sarah Spain truths or
beliefs that have gotten you through new beginnings?
Speaker 2 (41:29):
That's an interesting one. Trust myself. I have always had
a pretty innate urity that I can trust myself, my
gut instinct, my beliefs, my priorities, my principles. So I'm
always thinking whatever new thing I'm embarking on to consider
and always center in myself and just trusting that I'll
(41:51):
do what's right. Try to be kind to myself and
to others, but especially in our business. It's remarkable how
someone I met twenty five years go is back around
in some job or some office or some whatever. And
I'm grateful and thankful that I'm always someone who's going
to lead with kindness and hype other people up and
(42:11):
want everyone to succeed. I've never been someone who wants
to compete in life. It's interesting. I'm the most competitive
human alive when it comes to like games or sports,
but when it comes to supporting other people, and I
just want everyone to like crush it and shine and
be awesome. And I love when other people hype me,
So I hype other people. You know, I'm very aware
(42:34):
of what makes me feel good, and I try to
do that for other people. So be kind, trust my gut,
trust myself, and oh I think for me balance. I
will work twenty four hours a day. If I do
not schedule fun, I am not a good relaxer because
(42:55):
I feel guilty sometimes when I'm relaxing about how I
could be being productive. So the best thing for me
is to be as ambitious about my social life as
I am about my work life, and it comes very naturally.
That's what I want to do anyway. But if I
have a dinner on the books or a concert, or
I throw a lot of costume parties with my friends,
like it gives me some outlet other than work to
(43:18):
put my energy, and I always make sure there's that balance.
Sometimes my friends like, why don't you just cancel, go
home and sleep, And I'm like, no, if I cancel,
I'll feel like I chose work over this, and I
don't want to make that choice.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
I just want to do all of it. Are we
a little bit of a party animal, Sarah? I'm a
retired party animal myself.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
It's like not partying, it's like socializing, you know what
I mean. Like my husband and I have a lot
of friends across the country, and when we go somewhere,
we seek all of them out. Like I just went
to la for an Angel City game. Told a bunch
of my friends from when I lived there and friends
from work that I was going to be there, picked
a place and I had like seventeen friends who came
to eat pizza and have beer with me on a
(43:58):
random Thursday because I keep those connections up because it's
really important to me to keep those connections up. That's
so me.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I so relate to this. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
So it's like our version of partying is now just
like packing our day with good one on one or
group time.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
It's grown in sexy partying for me, I can agree
you will you will not catch me?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I mean, I don't have time to be hungover. No,
so I got to pick my battles.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Finally, Sarah, what is one area of your life where
you're currently experiencing the bright side or what's one area
of your life where you're looking for the bright side.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I would say my optimism is a gift almost all
the time. I'm incredibly grateful, naturally for everything. I didn't
even drink till I was a junior in college because
I was like, why would I need to drink. We
get sunsets and dolephints and music and like the world
is the best place. That's right, and then like later
in life. That was part of what I was talking
about earlier, is starting to try to understand why other
(44:56):
people are the way they are and being like, oh,
I get why someone wants to escape or why someone
doesn't think every day is a gift because people have
it hard, and like, don't be judging about that. Don't
pat yourself on the back for having it so easy.
Start to try to understand other people. But right now,
my optimism, I think, is at odds with my desire
to be informed, and my control issues are getting in
(45:19):
the way because I feel helpless. Yeah, and my response
to every problem is let me fix that. But this
is not something I can fix exactly. It's hard to
be the fix it person when you can't. Fine, And
I don't want to bury my head because I'm privileged.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
We'll just know that the work that you're doing is useful,
so don't forget that.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
There's the bright side is at least it feels like
I'm doing good stuff every day. Yeah, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Well, Sarah Spain, thank you so much for bringing your
multitudes and your life FOMO to the bright side. It
certainly made it bright.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I really enjoyed it. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
That's it for this week. Join the conversation with us
on social media. Hello Sunshine, on ig and feel free
to hit me up at Simone Voice. Listen and follow
The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts, and as always, keep looking
on the bright side, y'all. The bright Side is a
production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts and is executive
(46:18):
produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boye. Production is
by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Adrian Bain,
and Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Joya Putnoy. Acast
executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen Polo
and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.
(46:40):
Ali Perry is the executive producer for iHeart Podcasts. Tim
Palazola is our showrunner. Our theme song is by Anna
Stump and Hamilton Lightehauser.
Welcome to an all new season of the bright Side.
On today's premiere, we're talking to Emmy winning sports journalist
Sarah Spain. She's opening up about chasing big dreams, facing
even bigger crossroads, and what it really means to evolve
in the public eye. It's time to get real about ambition,
fear of failure, and trusting yourself to start again.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Either you're the hot girl, or you're the funny girl,
or you're the smart girl. And I think for women especially,
there is this feeling of we cannot view you as
anything other than what we decided you are.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm Simone Boyce and this is the bright Side from
Hello Sunshine, Hello bright Side besties. We are back, baby,
we are so back. Season two is finally here, and
I cannot tell you how good it feels to finally
be able to say that I.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Have missed you all so much.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
It's been wonderful to keep in touch with some of
y'all on social media. Let's keep doing that, please, because
I love hearing from you. I'm at some voice on everything.
So in our last episode we mentioned that we are
going to be taking a little Hot Girl pause, and
during that time that gave us some space to reflect
and really think about how we can be even more
(01:13):
intentional about bringing you the fun, uplifting, smart, empowering conversations
that you love here on the bright Side. And if
you've been rocking with us from the beginning, you know
the bright Side has been your daily dose of optimism,
joy and transformation. And this season, we are going to
be diving even deeper into that conversation as we lean
(01:35):
into the joy of becoming, so you'll be hearing real
conversations about confidence, self care, friendship, entrepreneurship, health and wellness.
We're talking to women who have made bold moves or
small shifts and everything in between, and we're giving ourselves
permission to dream a little differently, because ultimately, growth isn't
(01:59):
about becoming someone else, It's about becoming more of who
we already are. All right now, for some updates, The
bright Side is officially a weekly show now, y'all. Every Monday,
we're going to be starting our week with uplifting conversations,
thought provoking, perspective shifts and interviews that spark the inspiration
that I know we're all looking for right now. Plus,
(02:20):
we've got an incredible lineup of celebrity guests, those laugh
out loud moments and hot takes on all of the
pop culture moments that everyone is talking about. I'm sure
a lot of you are like, Okay, Simon, this is
great and all, but where's my girl Danielle. Well, on
that note, we've got some really amazing news at Hello Sunshine.
We are actually expanding our podcast portfolio and Danielle is
(02:43):
hosting an all new show. But I don't want to
be the one to tell you about it, so let's
go ahead and welcome my OG co host and bright
Side bestie, Danielle Samoud. I missed you. I missed you too.
It's so good to see your face. I know.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
I'm so happy to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
How are you. I'm doing well. I feel powerful right now.
I just got down with a hard workout, so that's good.
Been trying to take care of myself, you know. I
think having a little bit of a break was so
good for me mentally. It was like really rejuvenating. I
dug into like my creativity and writing and journaling. So
I'm feeling really good. How about you? What have you
been up to?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You know what, I'm somewhere between thriving and googling how
to become a goat farmer in Tuscany, Like every day
is sort of different. No, I'm I've been decorating my apartment.
I've been cooking a little bit. I've been dating a lot.
Say what I didn't say, I've been cooking. Well, but
I've been cooking.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, Like, what are we throwing down in the kitchen?
What are we working with here?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Eggs?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Who're cooking eggs? Okay, we're cooking salmon. I learned how
to make rice. I bought a rice cooker. Didn't know
the cooker could do it for you.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's like next level cooking. I do microwave Trader Joe's rice.
So I can't even talk.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
No, that's delicious rice? Is I learned? I didn't know.
It's been really fun. I feel like I'm nesting a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Okay, Danielle, give us the tea girl. What can you
tell us about this new show?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Well, first of all, let me just say I'm gonna
mishosting the bright side this season with you. But I
am also really really excited because the brand new show
is coming out next month.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And I can't.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Say too much yet. But what I can say is
that this show is going to dive into a world
that we all know and love. Like when I say love,
I mean love, okay, And I'm going to be talking
to people that shape culture. And here's the thing that
I'm most excited for. This is not just a show
for you, It's a show with you. You have a
(04:40):
seat at the table. We're gonna all have so much
fun together. I know I'm being so weird and top secret,
so I can't wait to share more details with you soon.
So keep listening to the bright Side and follow along
on social media.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I met Danielle robe.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Definitely follow at Hello Sunshine, and you'll have all the
updates soon.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Well, we cannot wait to hear more. You know will
be rooting for you all the way. And it has
been so much fun to get back on the mic
with you.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Congrats on the premiere. This is major.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Okay, y'all, It is time to get this episode started.
We told you we put a lot of thought into
how we wanted to kick off this new season, and
we've been really intentional about who would set the tone
for the kinds of conversations that we want to have together.
And I told you, I told you, I wanted to
go deeper with you this season, and we're doing that
today with someone who embodies main character energy. And I'm
(05:32):
not talking about the overused trendy way, No, I'm talking
about somebody who takes big swings, who wipes out and
still finds the audacity to get back up. Someone who
has stared down rejection, fear of failure, and that relentless
inner critic and chose to trust yourself anyway. Someone who
refuses to shrink or let the world put her in
(05:54):
a box. Someone like Sarah Spain. You probably know Sarah
from ESPN, from her razor sharp commentary on sports and culture,
or maybe just from being one of the smartest voices
in the media game right now. She's been a fixture
at ESPN for over a decade, across platforms like Around
the Horn, Highly Questionable, and Spain and Fits. She's also
(06:15):
an Emmy winner and a Peabody winner, Okay, a longtime
advocate for women in sports and equity and media, which
is one of the reasons why she created Good Game
with Sarah Spain, the first daily podcast dedicated to women's sports,
and most recently, she's the author of the new book
Runs in The Family, which follows the real life story
of Delan McCullough, a father of four and accomplished football
(06:36):
coach whose world gets turned upside down when he learns
the truth about his family history. Y'all, I knew going
into this conversation that Sarah and I were going to
have a few things in common. I personally know what
it's like to climb through the ranks of the media
industry only to be met with constant rejection and also
confronting the reality that there are going to be suits
and gatekeepers at every turn who want to keep you
(06:57):
in a box and make you stay in your lane.
But what I did I didn't expect was how candid
Sarah was about her setbacks and low points, and that
honesty was so liberating. It was so refreshing to hear,
and it really inspired me not to fear those moments,
but to embrace the freedom that comes on the other side.
(07:18):
All Right, it's time to hype up the ultimate hype woman.
Here's my conversation with Sarah Spain. Sarah Spain, Welcome to
the bright Side.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Congratulations on your book Runs in the Family. You got
the most epic co sign from our very own Reese
Witherspoon on your story that this book is based on.
And here's what Rees said. Okay, she said, quote had
me in tears. It made me believe in fate, the
power of family and divine intervention. And this is the
best part. You know, this is the best part, she said.
(07:51):
And it's so well written. I mean, you can't ask
for more than that.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
She wrote about it on every platform. She posted on Instagram, Twitter,
like LinkedIn, wherever, Facebook, every single place she posted something
so nice when it came out, and it was like, honestly,
like my cheeks hurt from smiling. I was like, oh
my god, did reason I just become best friends. I'm
still working on that part, but yeah, and so it
was such a nice boost and like really awesome commentary
(08:17):
from folks like that when we first did the story
for ESPN, where I think a good little boost to
get you know, a book along the way. And so
now I'm really excited for everyone to read the bigger,
more full story.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Hey, she is the Queen of books, so I know
kind of endorsement does not hurt. What is your superpower
as a storyteller and how do you think it's on
display in this book.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I would say it's two. I would say one is empathy.
I have a real desire to understand why people are
the way that they are. And I think as I've
gotten older, especially, I've become particularly interested in how people's
lives have been different from mine, the pathologies that people
get from the family systems in which they grow up,
or the interactions that they have with loved ones, friends, lovers, whoever.
(09:06):
I think it's a better way to go through life
to tell yourself a story about how people got to
be who they are instead of just being angry or judgmental.
And so, as I get older and I study more
about psychology, sociology, all the different things around just kind
of why people are who they are, it makes me
try to better understand people's choices instead of judging them.
(09:28):
And so, particularly in a book like this that has
these really complicated ideas of people who are dating, abuse
of men, or men with drug problems, people who are
struggling to pay the bills or maybe aren't making healthy choices,
you can write a book like that and be up
high on a hill and say, well, I never struggled
with that, so that was a bad choice instead of
trying to understand how they got to where they are.
(09:48):
So I think the empathy was huge for this one.
And then the other one is synthesizing ideas. I use
this across all my jobs, podcasting, radio, writing, TV. Essentially,
how do I get this thing that I want to
say or this thing someone else and put it into
the right words to best express it. And for writing,
I think, gosh, I should knock on wood. But I
just never got writer's block during the book, And I
(10:10):
think part of that is like my brain just naturally
wants to take ideas and find a way to make
them almost fit a puzzle and get across the themes
or the stories or the anecdotes that I wanted to
make sure we're in there. So I think those two
superpowers were super helpful.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, I'll say, and you are the envy of writers
everywhere whoever.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Probably wringing their hands.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Experiencing writer's block right now.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
It probably jinks myself.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Speaking of synthesizing, would you just synthesize the story of
Runs in the Family for us?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
So long story short. Dylan mccullugh is currently the running
backs coach for the Las Vegas Raiders. He grew up
in Youngstown, Ohio, right after the industrial collapse, so really
tough time. There are a lot of people without jobs.
Oftentimes he was without electricity or hot water. His family
really struggled because his adoptive dad left when he was two,
So now he's sort of doubly rejected by father. Figures
(11:02):
growing up with a single mom who's trying to make
it work for him and his brother Damon. He gets
into football, ends up getting recruited by a handful of people,
including a Youngstown fellow named Sherman Smith who had made
it good at the NFL level, who recruits him to
go to Miami, Ohio, breaks a bunch of records, tries
to go to the NFL, gets injured, eventually gets into
teaching and then coaching, and along the way starts a family.
(11:23):
Has four sons, doesn't know anything about his medical history,
doesn't know anything of his birth family, but as he
gets older with his kids, he decides he's interested, and
eventually the laws change in Pennsylvania, where he was born.
He can find his birth certificate, finds his mom within
like a day on Facebook. She never got married, never
had kids. She's been looking for him she's so excited
to find him. And now forty five years later, he asks,
(11:46):
do you know who my dad is? It's not a
my birth certificate, and she tells him and it's someone
that's been in his life for almost thirty years. And
the dad never knew either because he was never told
about the baby. So it's just a really incredible storied,
such a feel good story. But also I really wanted
to make sure it wasn't just about him. It was
a story anybody could find themselves in to try to
(12:07):
understand what's passed down via DNA versus what's passed down
via family systems, generational trauma, language and messaging, and how
we get to decide what do we want to keep
with our family, even backwards to our parents. Is that
relationship serving us? Is that choice serving us? Or can
we decide to change? And how those are interwoven with
the things that were genetically handed that we can't choose.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Well, you clearly lead with empathy and curiosity, and I
think those are sister traits. They go hand in hand,
especially in the field of journalism, and in that field
you've worked across radio, television, podcasts, writing. What skill came first?
Or which one feels most like you at your.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Core talking my poor parents, I just happen yeah, but professional? Yeah?
Or since birth? Actually, it took me a little while
to start talking, and then once they did, they were like,
holy go. I remember literally, like nine or ten years old,
asking my parents if you can get paid to talk
for a living, and they were like, no, that's not
a job. And I'm like, found one genius.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I've been a professional yapper for many years now, and
I wish I had had the foresight to just speak
it into existence at such a young age. Apparently I
manifested it. Look at us now, I know we made
it work.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
But the curiosity aspect too, you know, I've always wanted
to do everything, try everything, do everything. I was in
band Chorus three, sports Talent Show, went to college, I
was a heptatholate, which is literally the track event where
you don't pick one thing, you do all seven of them.
And then in ESPN and in my career podcast, national radio, writing,
(13:45):
producing television, like all the things, and so I think
the curiosity to know how to do something and to
try it, and then to understand why people are the
way they are and get to know them. Those are
a part of wanting to be like a journalist and
explores stor worries.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
What is it about challenging yourself in all these different
arenas that thrills you? Like why why do you think
you do it? And why do you think you go
after everything so hard?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
I have a lot of life fomo. But it's not envy,
if that makes a sense. Like I saw an interview
with someone the other day and it totally clicked for me,
and they said, when I see someone having success at something,
I think I would be great at, I have envy.
There are plenty of times when I see people doing
great things and I'm just happy for them. But if
(14:32):
I'm happy for someone and there's a little bit of
envy and means it might be meant for me. And
I think that's how I felt growing up watching a
lot of stuff like oh I think I could do that,
and I think I could do it, well, let me
try it. But yeah, I mean I think also, I'm
pretty fearless. It's interesting. I feel fearless when I'm in control,
and the older I get, the more I recognize that
I do have issues with control. The first time I
(14:54):
do anything, I'm nervous because I'm like, wait, okay, where
do I sit? What will the chair look like? Which
TVM looking at what's this question going to be? Like?
How is this? And then after one time that's it.
Not nervous again, Totally fearless, practically naive. Won't even think
about the fact that tons of people are watching it,
something terrible could go wrong. It just doesn't phaze me.
So I think it's a naive fearlessness with like just
(15:17):
a little twinge of needing to, you know, settle in.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That was a perfect self diagnosis that.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
You could tell me reading a lot of books for
this book about like therapy trauma.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And we've got to take a short break, but more
from Sarah after the break and we're back with Sarah Spain. So,
considering that you have this zest for life and this
life fomo, I want to hear what success looked like
(15:48):
to you when you were just starting out. So can
you take me back to that overachiever, younger version of
yourself who just graduated from Cornell where you were co
captain of the track and field team and a HATA athlete.
What was baby Sarah chasing at that moment in time?
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Well, Right after Cornell, I was still chasing my first dream,
which was most of my life and still you know,
in the background, even though it's not realistic at this point,
which was to be on Saturday Night Live. My dream
was to be an actress and comedian and performer. But
because I was doing all the sports and all the things,
it was always conflicting with like the school play and
other things like that. So I took some acting classes
(16:24):
at Cornell, I moved home to save up a little money,
and then I moved to La worked in a restaurant.
Like every stereotype says, did auditions, did acting classes, did
the Second City improv Conservatory. And it wasn't until I
took a TV hosting boot camp and the teacher had
us focus on something that we are an expert on
to practice and I was like, my expertise is like literature.
(16:46):
I was an English major, so that's not going to
be on a show. So I did a fake Chicago
Bears show. I just always been a sports fan and
an athlete. And the teacher said, oh, you want to
work in sports. It's like, no, there's no women in sports,
and I want to be funny and the only women
are like supermodels on the sidelines like Aaron Andrews. And
she said, well, it just seems natural you could try it.
So I took a class in TV sports reporting at UCILI,
(17:07):
and I was like, Oh, this is so many things.
The writing, the extemporaneous thinking, the interview skills come out
of improv my knowledge base having been a three sport
athlete my whole life. I always think of that when
I consider the fact that literally when they say you
can see, if you can see it, you can be it,
I never saw it. There were no women doing sports
(17:27):
in Chicago growing up, and it was just not really
considered an option. I think it's a good quality that
I have that I don't have grudges and I don't
get stuck in any place. But that also means when
I look back, I'm sure I have a much rosier
view of like what it was like back then. I
(17:49):
think I really thought I had something and I was
so terrified no one else thought that too. But I
was really insecure about what I look like. I've never
been as skinny as most of the people on TV,
despite being a heptathlete, Like my body type is just
not twig and so I was so worried watching who
was making it and thinking, Oh, they really just care
about what women look like. So my first job was
(18:12):
this fantasy football show that was just like those online
pop ups that used to pop up when you would
go to a sports site back in the wild wild
West of like very misogynist sports blogs, and it was like, Hi,
I'm your fantasy sports girl Sarah with this week's fantasy
football tips. And I had to wear like cleavage tops,
and like that was a big break. I was in
(18:32):
like Jim Rome's two million dollar studio with ESPN producers,
and that was the only way I could get in,
was like doing the stereotypical bs sexy stuff. Meanwhile I
was trying to do. I was filming my own fake
sketches for my hosting reel that were all like comedic
and silly and ridiculous, and I think that was I
(18:52):
think if you asked young me, I would never dream
of a single thing I've accomplished. And that's what I
tell myself every time I get an opportunity and I'm
scared to take it, is what I have said. I'm
gonna win it Emmy or a Peabody or get to
be on TV, or do Around the Horn, or have
my own show, or literally anything I've accomplished. I wish
I could say I was that kind of dreamer. I
always believed I had something, but I don't think I
(19:14):
ever was brave enough. I'm very afraid of failure. So
if I never say the thing that I want and
put it out there, then I never have anyone who
could say, you said you wanted this and you didn't
get it. You failed. That's so real.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Okay, Wait, I have to rewind because there's so much
there that I want to unpact so much that you
said I want therapy. So this show where you felt
like you were hyper sexualized when you were talking about sports.
What year was that, Uh, probably two thousand and five
because I remember also kind of becoming an on camera
(19:49):
personality around that time, and it was a different time
then that was really accepted, and that was a way
that you could get a foothold in the industry was
if you did kind of like a second your spin
on content.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
All the women in my business from that time remember that. Yeah,
we always had to be like, I'm a guys girl.
Most of my best friends are like the only way
to be accepted in sports was essential to be like,
don't worry, I'm not actually a woman. I'm just a
hot chick who's a dude inside. And like I talk
about that a lot when it comes to the evolution
(20:23):
of women's sports. Yeah, because we don't have to apologize
for being different. It's part of the authenticity that people enjoy.
And when we stopped having to pretend like we were
just like the guys, but you know, women, we got
to be funnier and more comfortable and villains and heroes
(20:43):
and masculine and feminine and queer and straight and all
the multi dimensional things that we let male sports athletes
and media be. And it was so restrictive and limiting
that it wasn't ajoyable. And then we open up the
door to let it be free, and it's like, oh,
this works.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
And you hinted at this, but there you've expectations around
what a funny woman looks like.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, or whether women should be funny, whether women are
funny exactly, famous articles from Christopher Hitchins why women aren't funny,
And there's a lot of studies of if a woman
is attractive, we don't want you to make yourself less
attractive in order to be funny. Your number one value
is your looks, and you're trading on that when you
(21:24):
become funny. And I have found that restrictive at every
point in my career. So when I first went back
to Chicago, I was working for a startup website and
I brought a ton of my improv stuff to it,
and I was just having fun with player personalities and
bringing some creativity to it. And it was very hard
to make sure that like, I'm being funny, but never
in any way that could be misconstrued as sexual, because
(21:44):
people are already pushing all their opinions and their feelings
of sexuality onto you at every turn, and so at
every turn you're constantly like kind of trying to look
ahead and be like, oh, what's someone going to say
about this? Or how are they going to perceive this?
And I was blindsided a million times by something I
did or said that somehow somebody made sexual when that
wasn't my intention, And it really prevents you from being
(22:05):
creative in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I was also blindsided by this perception that you can't
be smart and funny at the same time, Like I
experienced this in my career as a news journalist. It's
like people are just incapable of holding space for women
to be more than one thing. And this is something
that I was saying the drum about just embracing our multitudes.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Couldn't be more true. I used to talk about this
all the time. It was the idea of like, we
have to put you in one box. Either you're the
hot girl, or you're the funny girl, or you're the
smart girl. And I found that early in my career too,
because I was doing like radio updates that were sort
of light and fun. And then I started working for
espnW and I was covering everything from silly stuff to
very serious stories about domestic violence and sexual assault. And
(22:52):
I knew how to be in different places as different
versions of myself and to bring the right approach and attitude,
but not everyone else did. And I think for women especially,
there is this feeling of we cannot view you as
anything other than what we decided you are. And your
point about especially attractive women, I think of someone like
(23:12):
George Clooney's wife, or Michelle Obama, or like people who
are so unbelievably impressive, and instead it's like, but she
looks great in that dress or nice arms.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, it's it's never ending, so I think you just
have to tune it out and do you.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, like the Nike ad says you can't win, so
just win, So just win.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Well, I want to get into the ESPN chapter of
your career, and it starts in this unexpected way because
I hear that you initially auditioned for ESPN and didn't
get the job right away. I love stories like this.
Can you tell me what happened next?
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah? So I was living in la at the time,
flew out for the audition, didn't get the job, and
I was wanting to take the next step in my
sports career. Got a job at Fox Sports Net this
is precursor to FS one, and was working behind the scenes,
but started doing those little fan show started writing for
blogs for free just to get some content up, and
started taking auditions and meetings, and I flew back to Chicago.
(24:08):
I took two weeks off to see if do I
want to try to work in Chicago where I know
the team's best because that's where I grew up. And
a friend of mine had a connection at a startup website,
So I ended up moving back to Chicago to work
for that place, Mouthpiece Sports, And it was from there
that I eventually got started at local ESPN radio, added
on writing for espnW, working for espnW and then national
(24:29):
radio around the Horn Sports Center. You say all the
other stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Yeah, so just like hustling your way in there, getting
a foot in the door.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
So you were there for about fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Right, Yeah, I think I'm close to fifteen ish.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
Yeah, and you're still you're still working with ESPN, just
in a reduced capacity.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yep, working with the espnW, so just focused on the
women's sports stuff, hosting a lot of their conferences and stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
So I'm thinking back to when you gain a foothold
inside and esteemed instant like that. There are moments that
remind you that all of your hard work was worth it.
And I can remember jumping from local news to national
news and finally having a fancy coffee machine at the
office and being like, oh, I've really made it. Like
(25:15):
they're paying for my coffee now. This is the best.
What are the pinchbe moments that you still think about
from your time there, Oh.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
There's a couple. So one was I just wanted to
write on my tax forms sports reporter as my job
instead of you know, like a bunch of other things
or like waitress, because that's where most of the money
was coming from. Like, yeah, I was really excited when
I could just put journalists as my occupation. Another one
was my very first job, which now that I think
(25:44):
about it, it's really not a huge deal, but at
the time it felt like such a big deal was
the update anchor at ESPN one thousand, which is ESPN Radio,
and so every fifteen to thirty minutes, I would hop
on and be like, hello and welcome to your Sports
Center Update. I'm Sarah Spain. Tonight the Chicago Cubs take
on the Cincinnati Reds Easter. But the thing that made
me like go crazy was the Sports Center music would
(26:05):
play before I started, so it'd go da da da na, Yeah,
this is Sarah's mane with your sports and I was like,
oh my god, it's basically like I'm on Sports Center,
which it wasn't, but it felt like it. And to
be associated with the brand of ESPN in any way,
I was like, oh, I'm doing it. And then you know,
I always called Jamel Hill my fairy career godmother, and
there were a couple great mentors that I've had along
(26:27):
the way, but she in particular. I was at an
espnW summit, which is these three day conferences. I was
a total nobody. I was not involved in the programming
hardly at all. But I had one thing that I
did on stage and Jamel said, you know, you're really
great on stage. You should be doing TV. Why aren't
you doing TV? And I said, well, back at home
in Chicago, I did like a local show, but I
(26:49):
haven't done much for ESPN. I've done one or two
sports center hits and that's it for the Blackhawks, and
I think they're just not ready. They haven't seen enough tape.
And she said, well, next time i'm off with my show,
I'm going to suggest that host. And I was like, okay, sure,
And then about a month or two later, they gave
me the call. I flew out to Bristol. I hosted
a live hour show with Michael Smith. Used to be
(27:10):
called Numbers Never Lie and then became His and Hers.
And within that one show, Keith Oberman show calls me
outside the lines, calls me I just had to prove myself,
and so that pinched me moment of like somebody saw
me and thought I could do this, and then put
me on the air and I did. I did a
whole live national TV show. I was like, I can
do this, And so I always think about Jamel and
(27:32):
try to think about how I can be that person
for other people.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
That is really really cool. It's so great to hear that,
and clearly Jamel is a girl's girl, like that's that's
very meaningful when another woman stands in the gap for
you like that. Yeah, were there moments in during those
years where you were getting closer and getting closer where
you ever questioned what you were doing and felt like
giving up.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Not in the sports world. I did feel that way
about comedy and acting, particularly because I did not really
enjoy the scene. And you hear about the casting couch,
and it's very true, and unfortunately the sports world is
not a fix for that. I was the victim of
harassment on multiple occasions in the sports world too, But
it felt like there was a more objective way to succeed,
(28:16):
like if you know your stuff, if you get really
good at it, you can succeed in spite of those people.
And so I think with the acting and comedy, I
never felt like I really was cooking with gas. And
then when I started in the sports world, it felt
so natural and it felt like, Oh, you're good at this,
this is where you should be. And so I never
(28:37):
really lost hope or had enough of a drought in
that to think like, oh, this isn't going to work. Okay.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
So you're at ESPN for a while and then eventually
it sounds like something kind of shifted within you, and
I'm curious how you decided to give yourself permission to
distance yourself from that original vision of your dream job
and dream a bit differently.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, it was. It was a little bit of choice
and a lot of a shove. Actually. So I had
been doing national radio in some capacity for thirteen years,
from updates to hosting, and for seven straight years I
was doing nighttime national radio, and I took a ton
of pride in being a woman who was on the
(29:23):
slate which didn't exist other than me in representing for
women in that way. But it was feeling less satisfying.
It was feeling super ephemeral to get on the air
every night for two to three hours and have whatever
I said float away and usually be the biggest hits
of the day. We certainly throughout the various iterations of
my shows, tried to talk about other things, meaningful things,
(29:44):
women's sports, social issues like I really tried to make
the show a lot more than just playing the hits,
But I understood that there were limitations for that medium
in that space, and I had other projects that when
I did them and I put my time and effort
into them, I saw a lot of six with whether
that was the E sixty and the feature reporting I
did for Runs in the Family the First Time, or
(30:05):
a PSA I did called More Than Mean that ended
up winning a bunch of awards, including a Peabody, And
it felt like as long as I had radio every
single night, it was really going to prevent me from
spending time on things and making them great. Part of
radio that's great is it is immediate. You get your
feedback right away, there's a community, you have time to talk.
But it's an imperfect science because it's off the top
(30:26):
of your head. When you really take your time with
a feature, you can edit and turn it into the
piece that you want. And I wanted a little bit
more of that. So I had been talking to the
radio side about trying to get out of radio and
figure out to do more of the other stuff, and
a particular executive there decided he was just going to
have me be gone altogether. And so after thirteen years,
(30:47):
with two weeks notice, after they hadn't responded to a
lot of calls from my agent, he told me they
were just not going to resign me. And after our meeting,
he said he had spoken to them and there wasn't
a lot of interest in keeping me because he said, oh,
without the radio, you don't have much. I said, I
have E sixties Sports Center, my podcast, writing, ESBNW, all
these shows that asked me to do more, and I
(31:07):
haven't had time to do more. I was filling it
at ESPN Daily and some other stuff. And he said,
oh yeah, I called around. There wasn't a lot of interest.
I said, hmm. So I called my bosses. How is
your call with him? They said what call? I said,
that's what I thought, So just you know, I'm not
being re signed and they were furious, and they worked
to find a position for me at the company outside
of his department, but because he oversaw so much of
(31:29):
what I worked on, it really limited what I could do.
So it was a shove that was completely unexpected, and
I think I was very grateful that I had been
hosting a podcast for years, talking to people at times
about their worst times or their unexpected moments much more
severe than me being pushed out of a job that
(31:51):
I still really liked. It was people who suffered catastrophic injuries,
people who lost loved ones, people who are outright fired
and had no I do what to do next? And
I remember in those moments, while interviewing them, I would
ask myself, how would you react to this? And my
very honest answer to myself was terribly. You have been
through nothing. Your life has been privileged. You have been
(32:14):
so lucky in every way, and a lot of that
is good choices you've made and working hard and being kind,
but a lot of it is just luck and the
privilege of mental health from your family and a great upbringing.
And so time to start thinking about how you will react,
because it's not going to be this perfect forever. Something
will happen. And it wasn't cynical and I wasn't waiting
for the other shoe to drop. It just afforded me
(32:36):
the opportunity to think about if something were to change
in this idyllic life I had made. What would I
do about it? And so when that happened, I gave
myself a couple of days to be angry and sad
and feel sorry for myself and scared about what was
coming next, because ESPN is the top of the mountain.
And then not only did I fight to make sure
I got to go out a little bit more on
my own, on my own terms by working for another
(33:00):
year in a handful of capacities. And now the last
couple of year or two has spent just espnW, where
I'm still working with people I love working with about
something I care about. But I also took that time
to look at what I wanted and why I was
moving away from radio, what was going to be satisfying.
I think I had always wanted to do a lot
of intersection of sports and social issues because it felt
a little absurd to make a lot of money and
(33:21):
have a job where I'm just talking about people playing games.
It made me feel guilty almost that people who do good,
meaningful work are working harder, or making less money or
living a less privileged life than someone who's just like
going on TV and being like hell of a dunk
so I always tried to find ways to make it
feel more meaningful. And when this happened, I sat down
and thought, what do I actually want to spend my
(33:42):
time on? And I knew it was women's sports. How
can I use the career I built and the influence
I have on something that feels media and more meaningful
and more genuine to something I've cared about my whole
career and tried to intersect with my whole career. And so, yeah,
I got a shove. I'm doing awesome Ever since that shove.
I would never lie and say that I wouldn't have
(34:03):
been perfectly happy if they'd let me stay on that path.
I think I would have, But things are different at
ESPN now too, and looking at it from a farm,
I'm not sure how happy i'd be if I was
there full time.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
I so respect the transparency with which you told that story,
because that's that is not easy to be. It is
not a small thing to be pushed out of a
dream job, and I'm sure it was extremely painful. So
I just really appreciate your vulnerability around sharing that story.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
You've got to be honest. It's not that I was
dishonest when it first happened, I just was more vague
because I was really embarrassed. Like I talked about before,
I'm like terrified of failure. It felt like a failure.
I'd never had that before, and I was so glad.
I had talked to so many successful people who had
had failures or who had been let go or who
(34:54):
had had things not go their way, so I could
not have it be a referendum on me, and frankly,
I knew it wasn't. I was crushing my work. My
bosses were so angry that this executive had made this decision.
It was not about me. And still I could figure
out how to learn from it and pivot and figure
out what was next in a positive way, and try
to figure out, like, because I'm a creature of habit
(35:17):
and I don't like change because of the whole control thing,
how can I use this shove as an organic way
to move into something new and something like the book
that I've always wanted to do and never had time
for because I had a million jobs at ESPN. How
do I stop procrastinating on something I've said I always
want to do and just like do it, use the
time to do it and so that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Well, that's actually what I wanted to ask you next.
Do you think that you would have had the courage
to launch your podcast Good Game with Sarah Spain if
you hadn't been shoved out.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
It's certainly one of many nudges I'm getting from the
universe about taking bigger swings and being less afraid to fail.
So as far as the podcast goes, I pitched multiple
women's sports things to ESPN over the course of my
fifteen years. Sometimes they even got all the way to
looking at the budget. How many people would you need
(36:08):
on staff all that stuff. I brought sponsors to the
table that were ready to work on it, and it
just hasn't been a priority for them. And I don't
know if I would get fed up eventually and leave
to do it, or if I would have just been
happy bringing women's sports into as many spaces as I
was because it was scary and I'm still scared of
(36:28):
those leaps, So I don't know if I would have
done that. As for the book, when we did the
story for E sixty and the written piece, movie and book,
people came running when it went viral, and we thought
we'd do the movie first, and then the book, and
then also the publisher that came was fine. The main
one that came was fine, but it wasn't a huge advance.
And we thought, let's do the movie first and then
(36:48):
we'll put the stars of the movie on the book cover.
The book will be bigger, all that stuff. And then
we were pitching the movie during COVID and then during
the strike. So we've sort of been on hold with
the movie for the last four years or so. Now
we're going to re up the pitches with the book.
But I have to tell this quick story. So my
husband and I were in New York at this time.
I was just out we had renegotiated an extra three
(37:11):
months of my contract because I was hosting an event.
I was interviewing the president of the company, like I
had all these jobs that the executive didn't even ask
about before he tried to kick me to the curb,
and we were like, oh, do you want me to
stick around to host this giant conference and interviewed the
president of the company, and or oh you do okay? Cool? Well,
maybe if you'd passed around at all, you would know
I'm sort of booked and busy for your company. But
(37:34):
so I had this couple months that was sort of
like dead weight. I knew I was out, but I
was working. And my husband and I went to the
US Women's National Team Players Association ball in New York,
and we were walking around that day before the event,
and we walked by the New York Public Library and
everyone raised about how it's got these big, beautiful, fancy rooms.
So we're like, oh, let's pop our heads in. And
we looked into one room and people were diligently working
(37:56):
away in their computers. And I said, oh, I really
missed that, and he's like, well, I'm like, I miss
like having a big project. We're just like right in
all day, sitting with your coffee, like you know. And
he's like, that's crazy. I went to the bathroom. I
checked my phone walking out of the bathroom, and I
see an email from my agent at CAA that says,
the woman who really wanted your book has left for
Simon and Schuster and came back around and wanted to
(38:18):
revisit the idea of writing it. And I said that
to my husband and he's like, there you go. I'm
like what, He's like, there's your project? And I was like,
oh my god, is that what manifesting is? You just
like go take a whiz and come back and the
universe gives you exactly what you said you wanted in
like five minutes. Are you sure that's how it goes? Yeah? Yeah.
And so first of all, I did not have time
(38:39):
to write a book before. But also it was like, hey,
you are asking the universe for what's next. You are
asking what will feel valuable and meaningful to you. You're
asking what will be satisfying. And you have always wanted
to do this, and this is a project that's right
in your lap. And so I really couldn't even be
afraid of failing. I couldn't even be like, oh, I'm
not going to do that. It was just I had
(38:59):
to do it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your podcast. But
first a quick break. Your podcast, Good Game with Sarah
Spain is the very first daily women's sports podcast. I mean,
that's huge. You've also you've won awards from iHeartRadio for
social impact for this show, and you've really taken listeners
(39:21):
along for the ride as we've seen this surge of
engagement and investment in women's sports. What's one moment from
building good game that made you stop and say, yeah,
this is why we did it.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Well, that's tough. We interview so many people. This show
has been so awesome to have the green light and
the support and the funding and the interest to have
a daily women's sports show that they've sent me to Spain,
the NWSL finals, south By Southwest, the super Bowl, the
Final four, all Star weekend and putting the money in
(39:55):
interest and effort behind the details in women's sports, because
I really think that's all we've been missing is giving
people enough information to care. Like we do such a
good job in men's sports of telling you what everybody
fricking ate for lunch, and then in women's sports it's
like here's a highlight, all right, see you later. So
I knew we needed to give people the stories and
stakes and stats and stars so that they could know
enough to want to come watch. And I think the
(40:15):
biggest through line across the former athletes that we've had
on the show, because we have everybody from media to athletes,
to executives to sponsors, but the athletes is especially they're
retired ones. They say, I just wish there was more
of a connection between owners in front office and the athletes,
because the pyramid in men's sports very clearly puts the
men at the top. They are the product, they are
(40:37):
the value, they are the stars. They are served and
catered to, and they are the product that makes everyone
below in the pyramid money. And on the women's side,
it is still in some ways set up where the
players are somewhere in the middle and they are not
listened to and respected, and they aren't treated the right way,
and they aren't rewarded in the right way. And it's
(40:57):
not just monetarily, but in the setup of their leagues,
in the response to what they're looking for and the
way that they want to be coached and served and led.
And so I love hearing from former players who are
getting into ownership or front office roles and helping connect
those two sides.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
So we are launching a new season of our show,
The bright Side. So the concept of new beginnings is
on my mind. What are three Sarah Spain truths or
beliefs that have gotten you through new beginnings?
Speaker 2 (41:29):
That's an interesting one. Trust myself. I have always had
a pretty innate urity that I can trust myself, my
gut instinct, my beliefs, my priorities, my principles. So I'm
always thinking whatever new thing I'm embarking on to consider
and always center in myself and just trusting that I'll
(41:51):
do what's right. Try to be kind to myself and
to others, but especially in our business. It's remarkable how
someone I met twenty five years go is back around
in some job or some office or some whatever. And
I'm grateful and thankful that I'm always someone who's going
to lead with kindness and hype other people up and
(42:11):
want everyone to succeed. I've never been someone who wants
to compete in life. It's interesting. I'm the most competitive
human alive when it comes to like games or sports,
but when it comes to supporting other people, and I
just want everyone to like crush it and shine and
be awesome. And I love when other people hype me,
So I hype other people. You know, I'm very aware
(42:34):
of what makes me feel good, and I try to
do that for other people. So be kind, trust my gut,
trust myself, and oh I think for me balance. I
will work twenty four hours a day. If I do
not schedule fun, I am not a good relaxer because
(42:55):
I feel guilty sometimes when I'm relaxing about how I
could be being productive. So the best thing for me
is to be as ambitious about my social life as
I am about my work life, and it comes very naturally.
That's what I want to do anyway. But if I
have a dinner on the books or a concert, or
I throw a lot of costume parties with my friends,
like it gives me some outlet other than work to
(43:18):
put my energy, and I always make sure there's that balance.
Sometimes my friends like, why don't you just cancel, go
home and sleep, And I'm like, no, if I cancel,
I'll feel like I chose work over this, and I
don't want to make that choice.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
I just want to do all of it. Are we
a little bit of a party animal, Sarah? I'm a
retired party animal myself.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
It's like not partying, it's like socializing, you know what
I mean. Like my husband and I have a lot
of friends across the country, and when we go somewhere,
we seek all of them out. Like I just went
to la for an Angel City game. Told a bunch
of my friends from when I lived there and friends
from work that I was going to be there, picked
a place and I had like seventeen friends who came
to eat pizza and have beer with me on a
(43:58):
random Thursday because I keep those connections up because it's
really important to me to keep those connections up. That's
so me.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
I so relate to this. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
So it's like our version of partying is now just
like packing our day with good one on one or
group time.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
It's grown in sexy partying for me, I can agree
you will you will not catch me?
Speaker 2 (44:18):
I mean, I don't have time to be hungover. No,
so I got to pick my battles.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Finally, Sarah, what is one area of your life where
you're currently experiencing the bright side or what's one area
of your life where you're looking for the bright side.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
I would say my optimism is a gift almost all
the time. I'm incredibly grateful, naturally for everything. I didn't
even drink till I was a junior in college because
I was like, why would I need to drink. We
get sunsets and dolephints and music and like the world
is the best place. That's right, and then like later
in life. That was part of what I was talking
about earlier, is starting to try to understand why other
(44:56):
people are the way they are and being like, oh,
I get why someone wants to escape or why someone
doesn't think every day is a gift because people have
it hard, and like, don't be judging about that. Don't
pat yourself on the back for having it so easy.
Start to try to understand other people. But right now,
my optimism, I think, is at odds with my desire
to be informed, and my control issues are getting in
(45:19):
the way because I feel helpless. Yeah, and my response
to every problem is let me fix that. But this
is not something I can fix exactly. It's hard to
be the fix it person when you can't. Fine, And
I don't want to bury my head because I'm privileged.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
We'll just know that the work that you're doing is useful,
so don't forget that.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
There's the bright side is at least it feels like
I'm doing good stuff every day. Yeah, one hundred.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Well, Sarah Spain, thank you so much for bringing your
multitudes and your life FOMO to the bright side. It
certainly made it bright.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
I really enjoyed it. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
That's it for this week. Join the conversation with us
on social media. Hello Sunshine, on ig and feel free
to hit me up at Simone Voice. Listen and follow
The bright Side on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts, and as always, keep looking
on the bright side, y'all. The bright Side is a
production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts and is executive
(46:18):
produced by Reese Witherspoon and me Simone Boye. Production is
by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Adrian Bain,
and Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Joya Putnoy. Acast
executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Maureen Polo
and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine.
(46:40):
Ali Perry is the executive producer for iHeart Podcasts. Tim
Palazola is our showrunner. Our theme song is by Anna
Stump and Hamilton Lightehauser.
Host
Simone Boyce
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.