May 8, 2024 • 34 mins
We get into the fascinating history of women’s health with Dr. Elizabeth Comen, an oncologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering and the author of All in Her Head. Plus, if your friend wanted to get back with an ex, would you weigh in with your opinion? Tell us: hello@thebrightsidepodcast.com. At the end of the episode, Danielle and Simone discuss the importance of having each others’ backs in the workplace.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Today On the bright Side, oncologist and author doctor Elizabeth
Coleman reveals the not so secret history of sexism and
medicine and what we can do to fight it.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's Wednesday, May eighth. Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Simone Boyce and this is The bright Side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Bu bu banana, bum bum banana. What I'm spreading the news.
I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of
it New York.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now, Yeah, yeah, we're going.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
We're going.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We're taking the show on the road. We are doing
The bright Side from New York for the first time.
This is so exciting.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I know. I wonder if it's going to sound different
in New York. Maybe we should have accents. Hmmm, we
can have like East Coast bright Side moments. Okay, welcome
to the bright Side.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
We're here ready on the bright Side, you guys, it's
what we need.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Something like that. So well here in New York and
we have lots to talk about today. We just had
our coffee and bagel and now we're ready for the show.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I think that's perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, Well, I know that you are
prepping to go out of town because you are a prepper.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Let's see, there's so many things. I gotta go pick
up something from the dry cleaner. I want to wear
a bow in my hair this weekend, so I have
to go to the craft store.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Okay, it's just like one more thing on my list.
Tashi made me do it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You know that that hashtag Zendaiya was wearing a bow
on her press store and I felt so inspired by it.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I was like, I'm going to try this.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Does it go with your fit or is it just
for like a Friday night look elie wk.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
It goes with the fit, it goes with fit. You'll
probably see it, so you can be a judge. You
can tell me whether it's a yeah or nay.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, Tashi made you do it.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I also have to pack. That's the other thing I'll
probably end up packing, like way last minute. Are you
a last minute packer or are you do you it early?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I am usually early, but you know, so we're going
for an iHeart event and then we're going to do
the show, and so we have all these fits. So
now I'm last minute because I didn't get my stuff together.
I'm literally gonna leave from here go pack and go
run to the airport.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Red eye tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, I'm taking a reddite tonight and I'm trying to
pack food because the last time I was at last
time I was on a plane, I sat next to
this wonderful couple in their eighties actually from New York,
and she had cooked her husband homemade chicken and she
offered me some. And because they were a little bit older,
(02:39):
I felt uncomfortable saying no, so I had to eat
her chicken.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You ate a stranger's chicken on the plane I did?
This is really unhinged.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
She was so sweet though.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow, Danielle, Yeah, I'm speechless. I mean, on the one hand,
that's very courteous of you not to decline. But on
the other hand, who knows could have been in that chicken?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I know it's the Midwest and me, but last time
we traveled together, you made me try chicken chips or something.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I have a bag of chicken chips I'm bringing on
the plane. Talk about unhinged. So, for those who don't know,
chicken chips are chips that are made of really flat chicken.
They've like flattened them out on some sort of machine
press and they've turned them into potato chips without the potato.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
What I'm learning is that you want to make pizza
from chicken, chips from chicken, You'll eat anything made from chicken.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I'm one big chicken. That's just that's who I am.
I'm just a chicken.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I didn't say you were a chicken, but I am. I.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, I'm leaning. I'm in my chicken era.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Okay, okay, sure, whatever that means. Okay, speaking of eras,
Kendall Jenner is in her ex era.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The Magala was this week and she was spotted cozying
up at the after party with Bad Bunny, who's her ex.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Okay, so I don't follow her dating life all that much,
but I remember seeing them dating and then they broke up.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Kendall and Benito broke up, uh, but they were seen canoodling,
and I was just kind of thinking about I don't
know if that's a good idea, Kendall.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I don't know how I.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Feel about exes getting back together, so rarely does it
work out.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
At the same I hear you, but like, on the
same token, don't you go out and you'll meet couples
who are like Yeah, we like broke up for a
little while and then we got back together.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I feel like that's pretty common.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Do you have any friends who that's happened to.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I have had friends tell me that they got back
together with an X. I'm thinking of one friend right
now who got back together with this really toxic person
and I like begged her not to go back with
him because he's just so problematic. But that's a tricky
situation to be in as a friend too, if you're like,
don't get back with this person, and then what if
they get back with them and then they get married,
and then you always the friend who doubted them and
(05:02):
their decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And they know how you felt about it deep down.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, there's no going back, there's no taking it back. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So are you the friend who says something?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Probably if I believe that it's a relationship that's like
truly harmful detrimental for this person, I will I'll say something.
I'd rather I'd rather stand in my truth, you know
what I'm saying, Like only God can judge me. I'd
rather stand in my truth and tell you what I
really think, rather than holding it all in and then
like feeling that remorse or regret over not saying anything.
What's your stance on that. Do you ever confront your
(05:34):
friends if you think they're making a bad move romantically.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I always do, and it's because of this one friend
who did it for me. You know. I talk about
this one x on the show sometimes. He was not
a great guy, but I didn't know it at the time,
and all my friends kind of I think felt away,
didn't say anything. And my one friend, Julia, we went
to a farmer's market one day. I'll never forget. She
(05:58):
turned to me and she said, do you you can't
marry him? And I said why. She gave me the
reasons and I looked at her and I said, thank you.
That is a real friend, and it didn't change my opinion.
We dated for I don't know six more months after that.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So you didn't actually take her advice in the end.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No, But in the breakup, like in the aftermath, I
kept thinking about her words and her honesty. I think
a real friend is honest with you.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, And I also think a friendship that's meant to
last can recover from something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah. Sometimes the repair is even better, like we have
Danielle Bayer Jackson on and she's talking about healthy conflict. Yeah,
sometimes relationships are stronger after that. And Julia gets to
go on her and I Told you.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So tour and doesn't that feel good?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Folks?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
After the break, we're uping our clitteracy, y'all with Elizabeth Comyn.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
That's right, I just said, clitterasy.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Stay with us, Welcome back, Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Danielle.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You know we've talked a lot about how little we
actually know about women's health and our society and just
how our bodies are frankly misunderstood by the medical community. Well,
today we are going beyond the stats to trace the
historical roots of sexism in medicine.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
This is a big one, that's right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And today we're joined by doctor Elizabeth Coleman, an oncologist
and medical historian who makes us hopeful about the future
of women's health and medicine. She's the author of the
book All in her Head, The Truth and Lies Early
medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it matters today.
Doctor colemyan Welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Welcome doctor Coleman.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Thank you who doesn't always want to be on the
bright side.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I'm fascinated by your career not only because you're a
noncologist who specializes in treating breast cancer patients, but you've
spent years studying the underlying sexism in the medical community.
I've never heard of a medical historian. What made you
want to get into this type of work.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
So when I was at Harvard, I majored in the
history of science, and it was really because I just
couldn't leave behind my love of the humanities and also
my interest in science and biology and chemistry. And what
I really found in that incredible time of my education
was my real passion for understanding the experience of illness,
(08:41):
and particularly for women, and especially in the context of
women's healthcare. It is inextricably linked to history, culture, religion, literature,
the stories we've been told ourselves about our bodies. So
throughout my really professional career, I've always held onto this
tremendous interest in under standing where we come from and
(09:02):
the legacy that we inherit when we show up as
patient or doctor in the exam room and in our
broader healthcare system.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think understanding where we come from is the only
way to figure out where we're going. And for years
we've been talking about how medicine has been tailored to
men and the male body. What are some early examples
that you found in your research of that.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Oh, my goodness, everything. So Hippocrates and his disciples felt
that one of the reasons why women were just so
crazy was because we had this wandering womb, and that
was the source of all women's ills. And over the
course of history, when we learned through anatomy that the
uterus was actually tethered and it wasn't like wandering into
our brains, it then became other parts of our body,
(09:47):
our ovaries or estrogen that was bathing our entire body,
and that's just what made us these unique crazy creatures.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Well, women then were viewed not as patients but experiments. Experiments,
but also, depending on the time and history, inverted imperfect,
more primal versions of the idealized man, and we see
that today. It wasn't until nineteen ninety three that women
were even required to be included in NIH funded studies
(10:14):
women and minorities, And for so much of medical history
the idea was, well, whatever was happening to men would
just be similar in women, and we obviously know that's
not true and so much has been missed along the way.
When you look, for example, at autoimmune diseases, eighty percent
of autoimmune diseases are in women.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Some of these diseases we don't even have names for.
They're just almost syndromes that we're still trying to figure out.
And in large part that's because we're having a system.
And it's not to say that all men were bad
intentioned at all, but you had a system of men
largely taking care of women, and in turn, there were
biases along the way about what was seen as of
value to be studied.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Hysteria is a term that really illustrates the sexism that's
embedded in medicine. But it's also a term that has
become this loaded insult. It's made its way all the
way into politics as well. Yeah, I want to talk
specifically about what you call the long shadow of the
hysteria diagnosis. What's the history of that diagnosis and how
(11:12):
does its legacy still rear its ugly head today?
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Well, have you ever been called hysterical before? I?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Have? You have?
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Of course, I'm a hysterical crazy woman.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of course, what do you mean? Who called you hysterical?
Professionally or personally.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
In every context, I've been told to calm down, behave
I'm hysterical, I'm too emotional, i cry too much. I
got all sorts of stories. We could do a separate
segment on that. But throughout medical history you see the
specter of the hysterical diagnosis, whether it's hysteria as a diagnosis,
or the anxious housewife in the nineteen sixties that's being
given valume, or the anxious woman today that may have
(11:47):
symptoms that are ignored or dismissed it or are told
to calm down. The actual diagnosis of hysteria left the
medical lexicon in the nineteen eighties, but women are still
called hysterical and lots of different derivatives in our healthcare
system and in our society.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
As you say, is there a woman in the medical
history books that we don't talk about enough.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
One of the challenges of writing this book was reading
these heartbreaking stories and textbooks where women who were presumed
to have something wrong with them when they did not,
or they had normal human behavior and were really stigmatized
for that was wondering, gosh, where were these voices. Even
the field of American kindecology was built on the backs
of black slaves with Mary and Simms. And yet where
(12:30):
are the voices of these women? They are lost, and
how would I honor them in this book where I
don't have their voices? So I think there's countless, countless
women that I wish we could hear from. There are,
of course, some incredible heroines, like Elizabeth Blackwell, one of
the first female physicians. They're incredible midwives whose stories we
can try to capture. But I think what I am
(12:51):
most haunted by are the women whose legacies we will
never know. That we can imagine how much they suffered,
how much they were torture in some instances, and how
much we have to honor their legacy even though we
may not know the details of it.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I want to see biopics of all these women. I
feel like that's fertile ground for narratives. Yeah, I think
we also have to talk about the history of women's
sexual health. The clitterist has this long history of being
both ignored and misunderstood at the same time. Can you
walk us through that specific history.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love that you.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Asked me about the clitterists, because let's talk about the
only organ that is for pleasure. Unique like why are
we not considered superhuman? Why are we the inverted imperfect sex?
If you go back to I know, I'm getting really excited.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
We love that you're getting fired up about clitteracy right now.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
If you go back to like Greek literature, there's a
famous physician Galen who literally talks about like women being
almost like a hidden mole, like our anatomy, that we
are inverted, tucked in and you know, men are like
the cooler, better sex because it's all kind of like
externally present. But hello, we are the ones that have
(14:07):
an organ which is not just a tiny pearl. By
the way, it was mapped not until two thousand and
five by a female urologist to show just how expansive
those nerve endings are and just how all encompassing that is.
You're the only ones that have this like pure pleasure
thing going on the fact that it's been lost and
found and dismissed. There was even this one doctor who
(14:29):
became the president of the Endochronology Society who claimed that
more primal women had a clitorist and that with higher evolution,
the glitterists would basically just kind of go away and
therefore as you become more evolved, we would lose it.
Is this guy just out of his mind.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I took a bunch of women's health classes in college
and one of my professors was telling us that the
glittorus is a small penis inside of you.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
That's cute.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, but it's still default male. We still talk whether
that's true or not. We keep talking about it like
it's a male part.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
And the number of times that men in the Renaissance
and beyond claim to like discover label lose find again
the clitterists, it's just amazing to me. And then when
I was in medical school, so much of the anatomical
drawings that we saw of like the heart or the
lungs were in a male body and you only saw
the female form and it related to our reproductive function.
(15:25):
But yeah, the clitorist was like this tiny little pearl.
It's way more than that. It's way more than that. Thankfully.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I want to keep going on this thread here and
just talk about empowerment, Like where we go from here
with this knowledge? Did you find examples in history where
women were not only seen but able to shape the
medicine that we practice today? I mean I'm thinking about
the rich history of doulas and midwives and the role
that women have played in helping us better understand childbirth
(15:54):
and the postpartum period.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Yes, I think with the rise of gynecology as a feel,
which was really a male dominated field, what you saw
was that these extraordinary midwives who had ancestral knowledge passed
down from thousands of years through women taking care of
other women. They were sidelined at the rise of medical science,
when we had germ theory and the idea that you
should wear gloves or wash your hands. There were so
(16:16):
many things that midwives didn't have the chance to learn
because they weren't even allowed to go to medical school,
and yet they had profound knowledge. And I think what
you see now is a movement to reinvigorate our healthcare
system with these voices, with this knowledge, with this sense
of empowerment, the idea that women should be trusted with
understanding their own bodies and having agency over their own bodies.
(16:38):
So I think there is a counter movement. There is
that haunting thread in our history that we can expand
upon today and use to empower women moving forward.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know, as I was researching, I learned that heart
disease is the leading cause of death for both women
and men, but women are more likely than men to
die after having a heart attack. Can you explain that
to us, because I really think this information could save
somebody's life.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Thank you for asking that. So despite my field of
oncology and taking care of breast cancer, heart disease is
the number one pillar of women in the United States.
And when I was in school, was taught how women
present with a heart attack, it's with atypical symptoms. How
are we freaking atypical in our presentation when we're greater
than fifty percent of the population. It's the number one
(17:24):
killer of women. That in and of itself is ridiculous.
If you look at the movies and the late public
presentation of a heart attack, it's that crushing elephant on
the chest imagery. Women may not have that They may
have fatigue, they may have indigestion, they may have other
symptoms that they may not know are associated with a
heart attack. Women are more likely to call an ambulance
for their husband's symptoms than for themselves. They also are
(17:47):
often the primary caregivers in their family and are less
likely to have people to take care of themselves. So
there are so many factors that go into what happens
before a woman has a heart attack, When she has
a heart attack, a late diagnosis of those symptoms and
a heart attack, and in turn, who's caring for her afterwards.
We got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
A lot.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I've heard that sometimes symptoms can present in women as
anxiety and so they're not believed.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah, well, that's that's the vicious thing. That's why my
book is called All in Her Head, because so much
of women's symptoms are dismissed as anxiety. And sometimes we
are anxious, but maybe we're anxious because something's really going
on and someone's dismissed us, and maybe we are just
purely anxious. But we need to not have that as
a default diagnosis when we don't know what's going on.
There were so many doctors that I spoke to that
(18:34):
said that becomes a default diagnosis when we are not
certain of what is really happening to a woman. And
sometimes that's because we haven't unpacked the biology of them enough,
so we don't understand it, and therefore it's like, oh, well,
she's just crazier, she's just anxious. And we don't really know,
so that's our default.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
We've talked on the show before about how you have
to be your own best advocate in the doctor's office,
or bring somebody with you that can be your advocate.
What do you make of that idea.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I can tell you from my own experience, which I
chronicle on the conclusion of the book, which I had
written the whole book, and then I had this horrific
medical experience happened to myself, and I was horrible. I
shouldn't shame myself, but I was. I could not advocate
for myself. I did everything that I said not to do.
I didn't want to bother anybody. I diminished my pain.
(19:24):
I knew exactly what was going on for me, both
from my gut but more importantly from my years of
medical training, and I believed somebody else who had absolutely
no experience in it, and I believe what they were
telling me about my body. So I think when you
are in pain, when you are suffering, having somebody else
advocate for you with you is so important. Because I
don't care how smart you are, I don't care where
you went to med school. I don't care any of that.
(19:45):
If you are anxious and in pain, it's impossible to
then be forced to advocate for yourself. So the more
we can have somebody with us to help do that,
it's incredibly important. And I think yes, we've built a
system that has not allowed for the space for women
to express themselves in fifteen minute appointments. We don't have
(20:06):
clinical trials that are necessarily set up to always include women.
We don't have the laboratory experiments caught up to close
the gender gap. For years, we've been using male mice,
male human subjects to study, including female specific conditions, and
so this system has made it that it's incredibly hard
for women to advocate. And again these default become, well,
(20:29):
she doesn't really know or she's just anxious, when in
fact we just haven't spent the time on women, both
in the research setting, the clinical setting, and in the
exam room.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I read in your book that one of your goals
is to reintroduce women to their bodies system by system.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What do you mean by that, Well, I.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Think so much of the way we think about women's
healthcare is bikini medicine, that we've been taught that it's
our breasts and our reproductive function, and maybe a little
bit of our genitalia. And it's going to callologists who
handle women's health, but our entire bodies head to toe
are different from men. We are not small men. Our
biology is different. We have female specific conditions, female predominant conditions,
(21:12):
conditions that are unique to women only. And I wanted
to really highlight for women that women's health is not
just your breasts and your uterus. There's so much more
to understanding that. And it's not just your gynecologists that
should know about women's bodies, but your gas reentrologists should
know what can happen during menopause. Your cardiologists should know
(21:33):
the menstrual cycle as it relates to the presentation of
cardiac arrhythmias or changes in the rhythm of your heart.
It's not that women's health should be inelective in medical school.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So thinking about how we empower ourselves when we're in
the doctor's office, can you give us three ways we
can advocate for ourselves and perhaps even other women when
we're interacting with the medical community.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
First thing I would say say is bring somebody with you,
a family member or friend, to take notes. I would
say Secondly, come prepared with questions. Again, if it's especially
something new or different, or you're worried about it. A
lot of times we want reassurance, and if you feel
like you're not getting that, it's important to ask your doctor.
Can you explain to me the rationale for why what
(22:20):
you're saying is true. If you think that I don't
need this extra test or I don't need this blood work,
and you really understand what's going on with me, walk
me through your rationale and understanding of what you think
is wrong with me. Thirdly, I think it's very important
in our imperfect complicated healthcare system now to ask how
information is going to be communicated with you. Now, we
(22:41):
have often these my charts or this instant access to
our healthcare results, but that's not going to be in
context of an explanation from a doctor or a nurse
or a nurse practitioner really understanding how you're going to
get that information, how you want that information, and how
you want to have a dialogue with your provider about
what's actually going on with your body as a opposed
to having to google word by word random medical language
(23:03):
that you might see in a report.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
What can we do to influence medical research and make
sure we're represented there as well.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
So there's enormous movement and pressure to make sure that
we are including women in clinical trials and also that
we are voicing what we need to have happened before
clinical trials even are designed. We need to make sure
that we're listening to women to understand what the problems are.
But if you are part of a medical system where
somebody asks you to participate in a clinical trial, it's
(23:31):
incredibly important that we do. We know that often women
are underrepresented, minorities are tremendously underrepresented, especially in the cancer world,
and we need to make sure that the research that's
being done is of course with informed consent, that people
understand that they are not quote unquote guinea pigs what
the research is about, and that the results of that
(23:52):
reflect the diversity of our society as well.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What gives you hope when it comes to what's being
done in the medical industry to close the gap between genders.
What are the bright spots that you think we should
know about.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
There are so many bright spots, and I think a
lot of it has come from this groundswell in our
society saying this is not good enough. There are incredible
female specific startups that are happening right now. You see
entire movements in academic medicine to focus on women's health.
You see in medical schools that it's not just a
(24:25):
random elective, but that all medical subspecialties, all medical students
are being required to learn about women's bodies in a
more holistic way. There's tremendous momentum and lots of reasons
to have hope.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Doctor Coleman, I was so interested to read that you
ask your patients this question, what brings you joy? Why
do you ask that question?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Oh, it's my favorite question to ask, because that's where
life is. We are all we all have this fear
of death in varying existential ways, but we're here because
we want to We want to thrive. We want to
have those incredible days that are never perfect, but have
these bright sides and moments of just pure bliss. When
(25:09):
I ask my patients what brings them joy, it gives
me this unique window into who they are, whether it's
you know, dancing at home to Latin rhythms or playing
the piano or going for a hike. And especially in
my field, there's so much focus on surviving, surviving, surviving
and getting through some horrible treatment, when in fact people
want on the other side of that to feel like
(25:31):
they are still alive and they are not just surviving
but thriving. And for me personally, I have a hard
job of talking about really anxious topics and fear of
death and mortality and recurrence. And to be able to
have those moments of energetic connection with the patient, to
know what they love and what they enjoy, gives me
so much pleasure and often I learn about cool things
(25:51):
in New York City that I can do too. You know,
who doesn't want to swing from a pole everything?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Now and then? So I want to ask you, because
you did mention you have such a tough job and
you're with people at some of the worst and hardest
moments of their life. What brings you joy?
Speaker 5 (26:09):
I love to dance. I'm definitely a little bit of
a WEIRDO.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
What kind of dance? Ooh?
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Everything? I'm really good at hip hop. I grew up
dancing hip hop. I love sausa dance, I love Latin rhythms.
I'll pretty much dance to anything. And I you know,
there's like those diaries that are like dance like no
one's watching. I will dance like no one's watching, and
like everybody's watching.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Doctor Comyan, thank you so much for joining us and
just enlightening us today.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Thank you so much, Doctor Colemen my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Doctor Elizabeth Coleman is an oncologist, medical historian, and the
author of its All Inner Head, The Truth and Lies
Early medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it
matters today.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
We just talked about the importance of advocating for ourselves
and each other in the doctor's office.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
That's right, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
After the break, we're going to open up about our
own personal experience with what it means to have each
other's back in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
We'll be right back. All right, besties, We're back, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think we got to end today's episode a little differently.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yes, we are not doing what we usually do because
we had an experience unlike anything we've ever had.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
It was an experience that I don't want to speak
for you, Danielle, but I feel like it brought us
closer together and in talking with some of the women
that we work with, I think a lot of women
can relate to what happened.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So yes, I want to include you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, And in the spirit of honesty, I feel like
when Channy came on this show, one of the things
she told us was to not shy away from hard topics.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
This is one of those tough conversations. So here we go.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We were doing some press interviews for the show, right,
and we did a bunch of interviews, and then we
got to the last conversation, and that's when things got really,
really bizarre. One of the hosts said the most degrading
thing that has ever been said to me in a
professional setting.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
This host told me that he's been following my TV
news career over the years and that he has a
recurring dream about me where he bends his head down
and I pat him on his head and say, good boy.
He said this in an interview to my face.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I know you're even shaking recounting it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
But it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Unfortunately, he said, tall, gorgeous women are supposed to just
be on the cover of Vanity Fair or Cosmo or
something like that, not there on my TV telling me
interesting stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
How did you feel in the moment when he said
it to you?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
In the moment, I was really shocked and flustered, and
I kind of froze, to be honest, it broke my
spirit because I've worked so hard over the past fifteen
years to be taken seriously, and when you hear a
comment like that, it just makes me think about all
the other women who are working so hard to be
(29:16):
taken seriously and to just gain an ounce of respect.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, I actually learned something from the interaction too,
because you reported it, and I have felt uncomfortable in
so many situations over the last ten years of my career,
and I've never reported anything. I get mad at myself
(29:40):
for how I respond, because I should have said something else.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
That's what I was feeling too.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I could feel that in you, you're more mad at
yourself than you are them, which is the messed up
part about it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It's a messed up part because I shouldn't be mad
at myself, but I still, of course I'm thinking of
all these you know, great shower comebacks that I I
would have said if I didn't feel so damn conditioned
in the moment to just.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Be a good girl.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But thank God that you were there, because I felt
so supported and cared for by you in that moment,
because you really came to my defense.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
In a really big way, in a powerful way. Danielle,
you're gonna make me cry.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
No, but you said you pushed back, and you said, listen,
the reason why we're doing this show is to combat
everything you just said, and and to let people know
that women can be multi dimensional, that we can be
attractive and informed, that we can be funny and smart,
that we can be direct and curious. So thank you.
(30:47):
How did you find the words in that moment? It
seemed like it wasn't hard for you.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, first of all, I just want to I'm I
cry when other people cry empathy crying. I'm also crying
because I felt you so deeply, like you always have
the words, and so I could feel you not being
able to find the words. And I have been there
(31:14):
so many times. The reason I found the words in
that moment, I think were because I hadn't found the
words countless other times when I've felt put down and
disrespected and degraded at work. And I also think it's
a lot easier to find the words when it's not you,
(31:35):
Like you got the brunt of it. It was a
lot easier for me to have your back than it
was for you in that moment to have your back,
and I think being a woman as a team sport.
I have one more question for you, though, Yeah, how
did you find the courage to not minimize it and
to report it?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I think I'm over it. I'm thirty six years old.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
You reach a point where you're just like, no more,
I'm not going to let this happen anymore, you know,
like we have let it happen, sometimes to preserve our
own safety, sometimes to preserve the safety of others.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But I'm over it. I'm done.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Like we should be calling out this behavior, we should
be declaring it as unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I feel amped up by what you just said. No, really,
that's because that's kind of like the whole freaking point
of the show, you know, like we're all so over it.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
It is over it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I'm never not having the words anymore, like I'm not,
We're done. And I think the more we have each
other's back in that, like there's so much power in
numbers and support. I think part of the point of
the show is regardless of what industry you're in, like
we are making a shift. Hello, Sunshine has given us
(32:58):
a huge platform. I'm an opportunity and kind of lit
the torch for that. I think the takeaway for us is,
let's come to this show every day and do that.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, yes, So the more that we look for ways
to do that, to edify, to unify.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Get you with all the words again, edify. I love
the word outify chi vocabulary, so do you.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I'll look here.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I feel like I'm sitting next to an sat prep
over job.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Thank you so much for listening, besties. We are so
happy to be on this journey with you. That's it
for today's show. Tomorrow we have Peloton instructor Ali Love.
She's giving us insight into how to up the anti
on energizing our lives. Listen and follow the bright side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(33:56):
your podcasts. I'm Simone Voice. You can find me at
simone Voice on Insta, Jaga and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's r O
B A Y. We'll see you tomorrow. Keep looking on
the bright side.
Today On the bright Side, oncologist and author doctor Elizabeth
Coleman reveals the not so secret history of sexism and
medicine and what we can do to fight it.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
It's Wednesday, May eighth. Danielle Robe.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Simone Boyce and this is The bright Side from
Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Bu bu banana, bum bum banana. What I'm spreading the news.
I'm leaving today. I want to be a part of
it New York.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Now, Yeah, yeah, we're going.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
We're going.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
We're taking the show on the road. We are doing
The bright Side from New York for the first time.
This is so exciting.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I know. I wonder if it's going to sound different
in New York. Maybe we should have accents. Hmmm, we
can have like East Coast bright Side moments. Okay, welcome
to the bright Side.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
We're here ready on the bright Side, you guys, it's
what we need.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Something like that. So well here in New York and
we have lots to talk about today. We just had
our coffee and bagel and now we're ready for the show.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
I think that's perfect.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I agree. Okay, Well, I know that you are
prepping to go out of town because you are a prepper.
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Let's see, there's so many things. I gotta go pick
up something from the dry cleaner. I want to wear
a bow in my hair this weekend, so I have
to go to the craft store.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Okay, it's just like one more thing on my list.
Tashi made me do it.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
You know that that hashtag Zendaiya was wearing a bow
on her press store and I felt so inspired by it.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
I was like, I'm going to try this.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Does it go with your fit or is it just
for like a Friday night look elie wk.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
It goes with the fit, it goes with fit. You'll
probably see it, so you can be a judge. You
can tell me whether it's a yeah or nay.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Okay, Tashi made you do it.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
I also have to pack. That's the other thing I'll
probably end up packing, like way last minute. Are you
a last minute packer or are you do you it early?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I am usually early, but you know, so we're going
for an iHeart event and then we're going to do
the show, and so we have all these fits. So
now I'm last minute because I didn't get my stuff together.
I'm literally gonna leave from here go pack and go
run to the airport.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Red eye tonight.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, I'm taking a reddite tonight and I'm trying to
pack food because the last time I was at last
time I was on a plane, I sat next to
this wonderful couple in their eighties actually from New York,
and she had cooked her husband homemade chicken and she
offered me some. And because they were a little bit older,
(02:39):
I felt uncomfortable saying no, so I had to eat
her chicken.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
You ate a stranger's chicken on the plane I did?
This is really unhinged.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
She was so sweet though.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Wow, Danielle, Yeah, I'm speechless. I mean, on the one hand,
that's very courteous of you not to decline. But on
the other hand, who knows could have been in that chicken?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Girl?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I know it's the Midwest and me, but last time
we traveled together, you made me try chicken chips or something.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
I have a bag of chicken chips I'm bringing on
the plane. Talk about unhinged. So, for those who don't know,
chicken chips are chips that are made of really flat chicken.
They've like flattened them out on some sort of machine
press and they've turned them into potato chips without the potato.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
What I'm learning is that you want to make pizza
from chicken, chips from chicken, You'll eat anything made from chicken.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
I'm one big chicken. That's just that's who I am.
I'm just a chicken.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I didn't say you were a chicken, but I am. I.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Yeah, I'm leaning. I'm in my chicken era.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Okay, okay, sure, whatever that means. Okay, speaking of eras,
Kendall Jenner is in her ex era.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The Magala was this week and she was spotted cozying
up at the after party with Bad Bunny, who's her ex.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Okay, so I don't follow her dating life all that much,
but I remember seeing them dating and then they broke up.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Kendall and Benito broke up, uh, but they were seen canoodling,
and I was just kind of thinking about I don't
know if that's a good idea, Kendall.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
I don't know how I.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Feel about exes getting back together, so rarely does it
work out.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
At the same I hear you, but like, on the
same token, don't you go out and you'll meet couples
who are like Yeah, we like broke up for a
little while and then we got back together.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I feel like that's pretty common.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Do you have any friends who that's happened to.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I have had friends tell me that they got back
together with an X. I'm thinking of one friend right
now who got back together with this really toxic person
and I like begged her not to go back with
him because he's just so problematic. But that's a tricky
situation to be in as a friend too, if you're like,
don't get back with this person, and then what if
they get back with them and then they get married,
and then you always the friend who doubted them and
(05:02):
their decisions.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
And they know how you felt about it deep down.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, there's no going back, there's no taking it back. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So are you the friend who says something?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Probably if I believe that it's a relationship that's like
truly harmful detrimental for this person, I will I'll say something.
I'd rather I'd rather stand in my truth, you know
what I'm saying, Like only God can judge me. I'd
rather stand in my truth and tell you what I
really think, rather than holding it all in and then
like feeling that remorse or regret over not saying anything.
What's your stance on that. Do you ever confront your
(05:34):
friends if you think they're making a bad move romantically.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I always do, and it's because of this one friend
who did it for me. You know. I talk about
this one x on the show sometimes. He was not
a great guy, but I didn't know it at the time,
and all my friends kind of I think felt away,
didn't say anything. And my one friend, Julia, we went
to a farmer's market one day. I'll never forget. She
(05:58):
turned to me and she said, do you you can't
marry him? And I said why. She gave me the
reasons and I looked at her and I said, thank you.
That is a real friend, and it didn't change my opinion.
We dated for I don't know six more months after that.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
So you didn't actually take her advice in the end.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No, But in the breakup, like in the aftermath, I
kept thinking about her words and her honesty. I think
a real friend is honest with you.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Yeah, And I also think a friendship that's meant to
last can recover from something like that.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah. Sometimes the repair is even better, like we have
Danielle Bayer Jackson on and she's talking about healthy conflict. Yeah,
sometimes relationships are stronger after that. And Julia gets to
go on her and I Told you.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
So tour and doesn't that feel good?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Folks?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
After the break, we're uping our clitteracy, y'all with Elizabeth Comyn.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
That's right, I just said, clitterasy.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Stay with us, Welcome back, Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Danielle.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You know we've talked a lot about how little we
actually know about women's health and our society and just
how our bodies are frankly misunderstood by the medical community. Well,
today we are going beyond the stats to trace the
historical roots of sexism in medicine.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
This is a big one, that's right.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
And today we're joined by doctor Elizabeth Coleman, an oncologist
and medical historian who makes us hopeful about the future
of women's health and medicine. She's the author of the
book All in her Head, The Truth and Lies Early
medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it matters today.
Doctor colemyan Welcome to the bright side.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Welcome doctor Coleman.
Speaker 5 (07:58):
Thank you who doesn't always want to be on the
bright side.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I'm fascinated by your career not only because you're a
noncologist who specializes in treating breast cancer patients, but you've
spent years studying the underlying sexism in the medical community.
I've never heard of a medical historian. What made you
want to get into this type of work.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
So when I was at Harvard, I majored in the
history of science, and it was really because I just
couldn't leave behind my love of the humanities and also
my interest in science and biology and chemistry. And what
I really found in that incredible time of my education
was my real passion for understanding the experience of illness,
(08:41):
and particularly for women, and especially in the context of
women's healthcare. It is inextricably linked to history, culture, religion, literature,
the stories we've been told ourselves about our bodies. So
throughout my really professional career, I've always held onto this
tremendous interest in under standing where we come from and
(09:02):
the legacy that we inherit when we show up as
patient or doctor in the exam room and in our
broader healthcare system.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think understanding where we come from is the only
way to figure out where we're going. And for years
we've been talking about how medicine has been tailored to
men and the male body. What are some early examples
that you found in your research of that.
Speaker 5 (09:25):
Oh, my goodness, everything. So Hippocrates and his disciples felt
that one of the reasons why women were just so
crazy was because we had this wandering womb, and that
was the source of all women's ills. And over the
course of history, when we learned through anatomy that the
uterus was actually tethered and it wasn't like wandering into
our brains, it then became other parts of our body,
(09:47):
our ovaries or estrogen that was bathing our entire body,
and that's just what made us these unique crazy creatures.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Well, women then were viewed not as patients but experiments. Experiments,
but also, depending on the time and history, inverted imperfect,
more primal versions of the idealized man, and we see
that today. It wasn't until nineteen ninety three that women
were even required to be included in NIH funded studies
(10:14):
women and minorities, And for so much of medical history
the idea was, well, whatever was happening to men would
just be similar in women, and we obviously know that's
not true and so much has been missed along the way.
When you look, for example, at autoimmune diseases, eighty percent
of autoimmune diseases are in women.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Some of these diseases we don't even have names for.
They're just almost syndromes that we're still trying to figure out.
And in large part that's because we're having a system.
And it's not to say that all men were bad
intentioned at all, but you had a system of men
largely taking care of women, and in turn, there were
biases along the way about what was seen as of
value to be studied.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Hysteria is a term that really illustrates the sexism that's
embedded in medicine. But it's also a term that has
become this loaded insult. It's made its way all the
way into politics as well. Yeah, I want to talk
specifically about what you call the long shadow of the
hysteria diagnosis. What's the history of that diagnosis and how
(11:12):
does its legacy still rear its ugly head today?
Speaker 5 (11:15):
Well, have you ever been called hysterical before? I?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Have? You have?
Speaker 5 (11:18):
Of course, I'm a hysterical crazy woman.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Of course, what do you mean? Who called you hysterical?
Professionally or personally.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
In every context, I've been told to calm down, behave
I'm hysterical, I'm too emotional, i cry too much. I
got all sorts of stories. We could do a separate
segment on that. But throughout medical history you see the
specter of the hysterical diagnosis, whether it's hysteria as a diagnosis,
or the anxious housewife in the nineteen sixties that's being
given valume, or the anxious woman today that may have
(11:47):
symptoms that are ignored or dismissed it or are told
to calm down. The actual diagnosis of hysteria left the
medical lexicon in the nineteen eighties, but women are still
called hysterical and lots of different derivatives in our healthcare
system and in our society.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
As you say, is there a woman in the medical
history books that we don't talk about enough.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
One of the challenges of writing this book was reading
these heartbreaking stories and textbooks where women who were presumed
to have something wrong with them when they did not,
or they had normal human behavior and were really stigmatized
for that was wondering, gosh, where were these voices. Even
the field of American kindecology was built on the backs
of black slaves with Mary and Simms. And yet where
(12:30):
are the voices of these women? They are lost, and
how would I honor them in this book where I
don't have their voices? So I think there's countless, countless
women that I wish we could hear from. There are,
of course, some incredible heroines, like Elizabeth Blackwell, one of
the first female physicians. They're incredible midwives whose stories we
can try to capture. But I think what I am
(12:51):
most haunted by are the women whose legacies we will
never know. That we can imagine how much they suffered,
how much they were torture in some instances, and how
much we have to honor their legacy even though we
may not know the details of it.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
I want to see biopics of all these women. I
feel like that's fertile ground for narratives. Yeah, I think
we also have to talk about the history of women's
sexual health. The clitterist has this long history of being
both ignored and misunderstood at the same time. Can you
walk us through that specific history.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I love that you.
Speaker 5 (13:26):
Asked me about the clitterists, because let's talk about the
only organ that is for pleasure. Unique like why are
we not considered superhuman? Why are we the inverted imperfect sex?
If you go back to I know, I'm getting really excited.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
We love that you're getting fired up about clitteracy right now.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
I mean, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 5 (13:44):
If you go back to like Greek literature, there's a
famous physician Galen who literally talks about like women being
almost like a hidden mole, like our anatomy, that we
are inverted, tucked in and you know, men are like
the cooler, better sex because it's all kind of like
externally present. But hello, we are the ones that have
(14:07):
an organ which is not just a tiny pearl. By
the way, it was mapped not until two thousand and
five by a female urologist to show just how expansive
those nerve endings are and just how all encompassing that is.
You're the only ones that have this like pure pleasure
thing going on the fact that it's been lost and
found and dismissed. There was even this one doctor who
(14:29):
became the president of the Endochronology Society who claimed that
more primal women had a clitorist and that with higher evolution,
the glitterists would basically just kind of go away and
therefore as you become more evolved, we would lose it.
Is this guy just out of his mind.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I took a bunch of women's health classes in college
and one of my professors was telling us that the
glittorus is a small penis inside of you.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
That's cute.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well, but it's still default male. We still talk whether
that's true or not. We keep talking about it like
it's a male part.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
And the number of times that men in the Renaissance
and beyond claim to like discover label lose find again
the clitterists, it's just amazing to me. And then when
I was in medical school, so much of the anatomical
drawings that we saw of like the heart or the
lungs were in a male body and you only saw
the female form and it related to our reproductive function.
(15:25):
But yeah, the clitorist was like this tiny little pearl.
It's way more than that. It's way more than that. Thankfully.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I want to keep going on this thread here and
just talk about empowerment, Like where we go from here
with this knowledge? Did you find examples in history where
women were not only seen but able to shape the
medicine that we practice today? I mean I'm thinking about
the rich history of doulas and midwives and the role
that women have played in helping us better understand childbirth
(15:54):
and the postpartum period.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Yes, I think with the rise of gynecology as a feel,
which was really a male dominated field, what you saw
was that these extraordinary midwives who had ancestral knowledge passed
down from thousands of years through women taking care of
other women. They were sidelined at the rise of medical science,
when we had germ theory and the idea that you
should wear gloves or wash your hands. There were so
(16:16):
many things that midwives didn't have the chance to learn
because they weren't even allowed to go to medical school,
and yet they had profound knowledge. And I think what
you see now is a movement to reinvigorate our healthcare
system with these voices, with this knowledge, with this sense
of empowerment, the idea that women should be trusted with
understanding their own bodies and having agency over their own bodies.
(16:38):
So I think there is a counter movement. There is
that haunting thread in our history that we can expand
upon today and use to empower women moving forward.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
You know, as I was researching, I learned that heart
disease is the leading cause of death for both women
and men, but women are more likely than men to
die after having a heart attack. Can you explain that
to us, because I really think this information could save
somebody's life.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Thank you for asking that. So despite my field of
oncology and taking care of breast cancer, heart disease is
the number one pillar of women in the United States.
And when I was in school, was taught how women
present with a heart attack, it's with atypical symptoms. How
are we freaking atypical in our presentation when we're greater
than fifty percent of the population. It's the number one
(17:24):
killer of women. That in and of itself is ridiculous.
If you look at the movies and the late public
presentation of a heart attack, it's that crushing elephant on
the chest imagery. Women may not have that They may
have fatigue, they may have indigestion, they may have other
symptoms that they may not know are associated with a
heart attack. Women are more likely to call an ambulance
for their husband's symptoms than for themselves. They also are
(17:47):
often the primary caregivers in their family and are less
likely to have people to take care of themselves. So
there are so many factors that go into what happens
before a woman has a heart attack, When she has
a heart attack, a late diagnosis of those symptoms and
a heart attack, and in turn, who's caring for her afterwards.
We got a lot of work to do.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
A lot.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I've heard that sometimes symptoms can present in women as
anxiety and so they're not believed.
Speaker 5 (18:13):
Yeah, well, that's that's the vicious thing. That's why my
book is called All in Her Head, because so much
of women's symptoms are dismissed as anxiety. And sometimes we
are anxious, but maybe we're anxious because something's really going
on and someone's dismissed us, and maybe we are just
purely anxious. But we need to not have that as
a default diagnosis when we don't know what's going on.
There were so many doctors that I spoke to that
(18:34):
said that becomes a default diagnosis when we are not
certain of what is really happening to a woman. And
sometimes that's because we haven't unpacked the biology of them enough,
so we don't understand it, and therefore it's like, oh, well,
she's just crazier, she's just anxious. And we don't really know,
so that's our default.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
We've talked on the show before about how you have
to be your own best advocate in the doctor's office,
or bring somebody with you that can be your advocate.
What do you make of that idea.
Speaker 5 (19:03):
I can tell you from my own experience, which I
chronicle on the conclusion of the book, which I had
written the whole book, and then I had this horrific
medical experience happened to myself, and I was horrible. I
shouldn't shame myself, but I was. I could not advocate
for myself. I did everything that I said not to do.
I didn't want to bother anybody. I diminished my pain.
(19:24):
I knew exactly what was going on for me, both
from my gut but more importantly from my years of
medical training, and I believed somebody else who had absolutely
no experience in it, and I believe what they were
telling me about my body. So I think when you
are in pain, when you are suffering, having somebody else
advocate for you with you is so important. Because I
don't care how smart you are, I don't care where
you went to med school. I don't care any of that.
(19:45):
If you are anxious and in pain, it's impossible to
then be forced to advocate for yourself. So the more
we can have somebody with us to help do that,
it's incredibly important. And I think yes, we've built a
system that has not allowed for the space for women
to express themselves in fifteen minute appointments. We don't have
(20:06):
clinical trials that are necessarily set up to always include women.
We don't have the laboratory experiments caught up to close
the gender gap. For years, we've been using male mice,
male human subjects to study, including female specific conditions, and
so this system has made it that it's incredibly hard
for women to advocate. And again these default become, well,
(20:29):
she doesn't really know or she's just anxious, when in
fact we just haven't spent the time on women, both
in the research setting, the clinical setting, and in the
exam room.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I read in your book that one of your goals
is to reintroduce women to their bodies system by system.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What do you mean by that, Well, I.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
Think so much of the way we think about women's
healthcare is bikini medicine, that we've been taught that it's
our breasts and our reproductive function, and maybe a little
bit of our genitalia. And it's going to callologists who
handle women's health, but our entire bodies head to toe
are different from men. We are not small men. Our
biology is different. We have female specific conditions, female predominant conditions,
(21:12):
conditions that are unique to women only. And I wanted
to really highlight for women that women's health is not
just your breasts and your uterus. There's so much more
to understanding that. And it's not just your gynecologists that
should know about women's bodies, but your gas reentrologists should
know what can happen during menopause. Your cardiologists should know
(21:33):
the menstrual cycle as it relates to the presentation of
cardiac arrhythmias or changes in the rhythm of your heart.
It's not that women's health should be inelective in medical school.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So thinking about how we empower ourselves when we're in
the doctor's office, can you give us three ways we
can advocate for ourselves and perhaps even other women when
we're interacting with the medical community.
Speaker 5 (21:59):
First thing I would say say is bring somebody with you,
a family member or friend, to take notes. I would
say Secondly, come prepared with questions. Again, if it's especially
something new or different, or you're worried about it. A
lot of times we want reassurance, and if you feel
like you're not getting that, it's important to ask your doctor.
Can you explain to me the rationale for why what
(22:20):
you're saying is true. If you think that I don't
need this extra test or I don't need this blood work,
and you really understand what's going on with me, walk
me through your rationale and understanding of what you think
is wrong with me. Thirdly, I think it's very important
in our imperfect complicated healthcare system now to ask how
information is going to be communicated with you. Now, we
(22:41):
have often these my charts or this instant access to
our healthcare results, but that's not going to be in
context of an explanation from a doctor or a nurse
or a nurse practitioner really understanding how you're going to
get that information, how you want that information, and how
you want to have a dialogue with your provider about
what's actually going on with your body as a opposed
to having to google word by word random medical language
(23:03):
that you might see in a report.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
What can we do to influence medical research and make
sure we're represented there as well.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
So there's enormous movement and pressure to make sure that
we are including women in clinical trials and also that
we are voicing what we need to have happened before
clinical trials even are designed. We need to make sure
that we're listening to women to understand what the problems are.
But if you are part of a medical system where
somebody asks you to participate in a clinical trial, it's
(23:31):
incredibly important that we do. We know that often women
are underrepresented, minorities are tremendously underrepresented, especially in the cancer world,
and we need to make sure that the research that's
being done is of course with informed consent, that people
understand that they are not quote unquote guinea pigs what
the research is about, and that the results of that
(23:52):
reflect the diversity of our society as well.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
What gives you hope when it comes to what's being
done in the medical industry to close the gap between genders.
What are the bright spots that you think we should
know about.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
There are so many bright spots, and I think a
lot of it has come from this groundswell in our
society saying this is not good enough. There are incredible
female specific startups that are happening right now. You see
entire movements in academic medicine to focus on women's health.
You see in medical schools that it's not just a
(24:25):
random elective, but that all medical subspecialties, all medical students
are being required to learn about women's bodies in a
more holistic way. There's tremendous momentum and lots of reasons
to have hope.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Doctor Coleman, I was so interested to read that you
ask your patients this question, what brings you joy? Why
do you ask that question?
Speaker 5 (24:48):
Oh, it's my favorite question to ask, because that's where
life is. We are all we all have this fear
of death in varying existential ways, but we're here because
we want to We want to thrive. We want to
have those incredible days that are never perfect, but have
these bright sides and moments of just pure bliss. When
(25:09):
I ask my patients what brings them joy, it gives
me this unique window into who they are, whether it's
you know, dancing at home to Latin rhythms or playing
the piano or going for a hike. And especially in
my field, there's so much focus on surviving, surviving, surviving
and getting through some horrible treatment, when in fact people
want on the other side of that to feel like
(25:31):
they are still alive and they are not just surviving
but thriving. And for me personally, I have a hard
job of talking about really anxious topics and fear of
death and mortality and recurrence. And to be able to
have those moments of energetic connection with the patient, to
know what they love and what they enjoy, gives me
so much pleasure and often I learn about cool things
(25:51):
in New York City that I can do too. You know,
who doesn't want to swing from a pole everything?
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Now and then? So I want to ask you, because
you did mention you have such a tough job and
you're with people at some of the worst and hardest
moments of their life. What brings you joy?
Speaker 5 (26:09):
I love to dance. I'm definitely a little bit of
a WEIRDO.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
What kind of dance? Ooh?
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Everything? I'm really good at hip hop. I grew up
dancing hip hop. I love sausa dance, I love Latin rhythms.
I'll pretty much dance to anything. And I you know,
there's like those diaries that are like dance like no
one's watching. I will dance like no one's watching, and
like everybody's watching.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Doctor Comyan, thank you so much for joining us and
just enlightening us today.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Thank you so much, Doctor Colemen my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Doctor Elizabeth Coleman is an oncologist, medical historian, and the
author of its All Inner Head, The Truth and Lies
Early medicine taught us about women's bodies and why it
matters today.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
We just talked about the importance of advocating for ourselves
and each other in the doctor's office.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
That's right, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
After the break, we're going to open up about our
own personal experience with what it means to have each
other's back in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
We'll be right back. All right, besties, We're back, Danielle.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
I think we got to end today's episode a little differently.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yes, we are not doing what we usually do because
we had an experience unlike anything we've ever had.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
It was an experience that I don't want to speak
for you, Danielle, but I feel like it brought us
closer together and in talking with some of the women
that we work with, I think a lot of women
can relate to what happened.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So yes, I want to include you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, And in the spirit of honesty, I feel like
when Channy came on this show, one of the things
she told us was to not shy away from hard topics.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
This is one of those tough conversations. So here we go.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
We were doing some press interviews for the show, right,
and we did a bunch of interviews, and then we
got to the last conversation, and that's when things got really,
really bizarre. One of the hosts said the most degrading
thing that has ever been said to me in a
professional setting.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
This host told me that he's been following my TV
news career over the years and that he has a
recurring dream about me where he bends his head down
and I pat him on his head and say, good boy.
He said this in an interview to my face.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I know you're even shaking recounting it.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
But it gets worse.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Unfortunately, he said, tall, gorgeous women are supposed to just
be on the cover of Vanity Fair or Cosmo or
something like that, not there on my TV telling me
interesting stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
How did you feel in the moment when he said
it to you?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
In the moment, I was really shocked and flustered, and
I kind of froze, to be honest, it broke my
spirit because I've worked so hard over the past fifteen
years to be taken seriously, and when you hear a
comment like that, it just makes me think about all
the other women who are working so hard to be
(29:16):
taken seriously and to just gain an ounce of respect.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
You know, I actually learned something from the interaction too,
because you reported it, and I have felt uncomfortable in
so many situations over the last ten years of my career,
and I've never reported anything. I get mad at myself
(29:40):
for how I respond, because I should have said something else.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
That's what I was feeling too.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
I could feel that in you, you're more mad at
yourself than you are them, which is the messed up
part about it.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It's a messed up part because I shouldn't be mad
at myself, but I still, of course I'm thinking of
all these you know, great shower comebacks that I I
would have said if I didn't feel so damn conditioned
in the moment to just.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Be a good girl.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
But thank God that you were there, because I felt
so supported and cared for by you in that moment,
because you really came to my defense.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
In a really big way, in a powerful way. Danielle,
you're gonna make me cry.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
No, but you said you pushed back, and you said, listen,
the reason why we're doing this show is to combat
everything you just said, and and to let people know
that women can be multi dimensional, that we can be
attractive and informed, that we can be funny and smart,
that we can be direct and curious. So thank you.
(30:47):
How did you find the words in that moment? It
seemed like it wasn't hard for you.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, first of all, I just want to I'm I
cry when other people cry empathy crying. I'm also crying
because I felt you so deeply, like you always have
the words, and so I could feel you not being
able to find the words. And I have been there
(31:14):
so many times. The reason I found the words in
that moment, I think were because I hadn't found the
words countless other times when I've felt put down and
disrespected and degraded at work. And I also think it's
a lot easier to find the words when it's not you,
(31:35):
Like you got the brunt of it. It was a
lot easier for me to have your back than it
was for you in that moment to have your back,
and I think being a woman as a team sport.
I have one more question for you, though, Yeah, how
did you find the courage to not minimize it and
to report it?
Speaker 3 (31:54):
I think I'm over it. I'm thirty six years old.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
You reach a point where you're just like, no more,
I'm not going to let this happen anymore, you know,
like we have let it happen, sometimes to preserve our
own safety, sometimes to preserve the safety of others.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
But I'm over it. I'm done.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Like we should be calling out this behavior, we should
be declaring it as unacceptable.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
I feel amped up by what you just said. No, really,
that's because that's kind of like the whole freaking point
of the show, you know, like we're all so over it.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
It is over it.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I'm never not having the words anymore, like I'm not,
We're done. And I think the more we have each
other's back in that, like there's so much power in
numbers and support. I think part of the point of
the show is regardless of what industry you're in, like
we are making a shift. Hello, Sunshine has given us
(32:58):
a huge platform. I'm an opportunity and kind of lit
the torch for that. I think the takeaway for us is,
let's come to this show every day and do that.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yes, yes, So the more that we look for ways
to do that, to edify, to unify.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Get you with all the words again, edify. I love
the word outify chi vocabulary, so do you.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I'll look here.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I feel like I'm sitting next to an sat prep
over job.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Thank you so much for listening, besties. We are so
happy to be on this journey with you. That's it
for today's show. Tomorrow we have Peloton instructor Ali Love.
She's giving us insight into how to up the anti
on energizing our lives. Listen and follow the bright side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(33:56):
your podcasts. I'm Simone Voice. You can find me at
simone Voice on Insta, Jaga and TikTok.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I'd love to hear from you.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok. That's r O
B A Y. We'll see you tomorrow. Keep looking on
the bright side.
Host
Simone Boyce
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