July 4, 2024 • 27 mins
On this special 4th of July episode, we celebrate American women who shaped history. Mattie Kahn, author of "Young and Restless: The Girls Who Sparked America's Revolutions," shares stories that are often overlooked in history books. She highlights how Mabel Ping-Hua Lee, Claudette Colvin, the teens who helped in the Revolutionary War, and more defied expectations and fought for change. Mattie also discusses Mary Beth Tinker's landmark Supreme Court case and its enduring impact on student rights.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, fam, Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today we're celebrating the Red, White, and Royal who's Who
of women in American history with author and editor Maddie Conn.
It's Thursday, July fourth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And I'm Simone Voice, and this is the bright side
from Hello Sunshine, Simone.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Happy fourth of July.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Yes, Happy fourth, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The sun is out, the barbecues are fired up, and
I'm going to be celebrating with my family in Chicago.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
How are you celebrating your fourth Sun's out? Guns out.
We're in the pool, we are drinking rose, We're eating
watermelon and delicious grilled meats.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
That's how we're celebrating today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sounds very similar.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think like across the board, lots of people are
celebrating in a similar way.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Are you a fireworks person?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Actually, we live on a pretty big hill, so we
have an amazing view of fireworks that are all in
the valley below us. So we have a pretty great
spot to watch the fireworks. Oh my god, that's cool.
We have a tradition. I think I'm going to get
in trouble for sharing this, but I'm going to share
it anyways. My dad is so great at setting off fireworks,
(01:17):
and so sometimes we drive to Wisconsin because it's illegal
in Illinois, and we cross the border and we get
some fireworks and he does like a whole show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
For my family. It was like the highlight of my childhood.
So I'm hoping he does it this year. It's always
a surprise. We don't know if he's going to do
it or not. He sounds like a true American revolutionary,
and that makes me think of guys like George Washington,
Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, you know, the founding fathers that
we usually talk about on days like today.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah, but there are.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Some amazing women who have been instrumental in shaping this
country and we don't talk about them often enough. I
think of the suffragists, the organizers who got women the
right to vote in nineteen twenty then help to pass
the Civil Rights Act in nineteen sixty four. The list
goes on.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Researchers estimate that women's stories make up just zero point
five percent of recorded history. And here at the bright
Side and at Hello Sunshine, one of our missions is
to try and change that, because there are so many
women's stories that are just not prominent in our history books,
which is why today we're celebrating a few of those
(02:25):
amazing stories with writer and editor Maddi Cohn.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yes, we are giving them their flowers today, and Maddie
is going to be guiding us through all of it.
Her work has been published in The New York Times,
The Washington Post, Vogue, Harper's Bizarre, so many more. She's
covered women's issues in politics for years, and she's the
author of Young and Restless, The Girls who Sparked America's Revolutions.
Welcome to the bright Side, Mattie.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You've written for publications like The New York Times, Glamour, Vogue, Elle.
You're so accomplished and so thoughtful, and you love stories
about women and girls. And I'm really curious as to
why you were inspired to tell these stories.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
The history of these teenage girls.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
I mean, I think I'm a person who loved being
a teenage girl. I think a lot of us feel
like the music that we listened to at that time,
the clothes that we wore, the things we were obsessed with,
the friendships that we had are still in some ways
the most determinative.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Of our lives.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
I like to think that this book came out at
exactly the right moment, because it ever so slightly predated
the Renaissance Tour and the Era's tour. And I think
anybody who saw what happened to traffic at this point worldwide,
what happened to hotel reservations, what happened to merch sales,
can gaze upon the power of teenage girls and cower
(03:49):
beneath their might. I wanted to write this book because
I felt like the kind of energy that girls bring
to what they love was something that had been treated
as for for so long in mainstream culture. And I knew,
from having spent time with teenage girls and from having
been a teenage girl, that actually you could power nuclear
(04:10):
power plants with what girls can bring to the things
that they obsess over and care about.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So for your book, Young and Restless, you recount the
instrumental role of teenage girls throughout American history, and I
cannot wait to learn more about these women because I
am such a history nerd. I've always loved American history.
Tell us how they were central to the American Revolution.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
I mean, I think that now is the perfect time
to be talking about their legacy. Obviously, I think that
there really is no version of American freedom, or the
kind of liberty that we hope to associate with this
country and don't always live up to, without the contributions
of teenage girls. The book does start with the American Revolution,
because it starts with the founding, and I have to
(04:52):
say I had pretty low expectations for what role teenage
girls would have played in that war and in that effort,
because the category of teenager didn't even quite exist then.
And I think that we all wouldn't be surprised to
hear that the expectations for what girls would accomplish or
offer were not terribly high. But I loved talking to
academics and librarians and scholars about the various ways that
(05:15):
girls did contribute. So, whether that was running onto battlefields
and supplying medication, water, or food to soldiers, or helping
to raise militias of troops, sometimes to help their fathers
or to help their brothers, girls were right there on
the front lines from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
So you write about the Lowell Mill girls for their
role in the labor movement, and this is after the revolution.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, yes, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So they go on strike and they form the first
ever union of working women in the United States. Teenage
girls did this. It's incredible. Can you share the significance
of this story.
Speaker 6 (05:54):
The Lowell Mill girls were some of the earliest examples
of girls that I knew belonged in this book. Like
you said, these were girls who worked in textile mills
in Massachusetts up and down New England, kind of in
the eighteen thirties. So they are living with the memories
of their fathers and grandfathers having fought in the Revolution.
Definitely have that pioneering American spirit, and they have this
(06:18):
new role in this country where never before have groups
of girls worked and lived together in the way that
they do in these textile mills. And at first it's
this amazing opportunity. You know, don't want to sugarcoat child labor,
but it is true that, you know, they got paid
more than they ever expected to. They were treated with
a sense of value that they didn't have in their
(06:40):
family farms where they were mostly coming from. And very
quickly they learn to appreciate what is being offered to them,
and also to understand that they're not really earning their
worth and that conditions are not what they should be,
and so girls as young as ten or twelve who
are working in these textile mills band together and basically
former workers associate, like you said in early labor union,
(07:03):
to walk off the job. And you have to imagine
thousands and thousands of young women leaving their posts in
these textile mills and marching into the streets to call
for better conditions, fairer wages, with a consciousness too, of
the fact that even if their aims are not totally achieved,
it's worthwhile for them to kind of have a show
(07:24):
of force. And what I love about them is that
while they weren't successful in achieving everything that they wanted,
a generation later, several generations later, when second wave feminists
are looking for examples of girls and women in history
who did a little bit of what they're trying to do,
you know, fight for their worth and call attention to
(07:46):
their contributions, they find the writings of the Lower Mill
Girls and publish these anthologies of their work. And I
love the way grown women knew and could appreciate the
example of teenage girls as a source of inspiration, you know,
one hundred years later.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So those writings by the Lowll Mills girls you're talking
about is a publication called The Lull Offering, and the
publication was a turning point in American history.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
How so, yeah, Well, first all female newsroom in the
United States.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
The Low Offering never been done before.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
And as someone who worked at l Magazine and Glamor Magazine,
I love to see my journalistic forbears shut their stuff
in The Low Offering, maybe in a subtle way and
maybe in kind of an unappreciated way. It was a
place where they didn't have to ask for permission to be,
you know, not tucked into a corner or given a
small little bit on the margins, but really take up
(08:41):
the whole front page and to feel like the things
that they cared about were important. One of the things
I love about The Offering is that if you root
through the archives, you can find these basically money diaries
that they published, like one hundred and fifty years before
other publications are tracking women spent. They are doing it themselves,
talking about saving for education, buying watches, buying pairs of boots,
(09:05):
and they're writing all of this down. I think that
what it shows is that from a very early point
in American history, girls understood that the things that consumed
them were worth publicizing. And I think if you look
at the way girls drives culture now and so often
decide what we think of as cool or worth spending
our own money on, you can see that there's like
(09:26):
this incredible history of that going all the way back
to these labor activists who lived in the eighteen thirties.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's so cool, Maddie.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
We're loving all of this history, but we have to
take a short break.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Stay with us.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
We're back with author and editor Maddie Kahn.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Okay, Maddie, I want to talk about women suffer, just
because when we think of them, names like Susan b Anthony, Elizabeth,
Katie Stanton come to mind. But you say, maybe Ping
Hua Lee was actually a trailer blazer that we need
to know about. Can you share her story?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:06):
I'm obsessed with Mabel.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
I used to say, like, it's horrible to choose favorites
among your book children, but I have to say, of
the stories that have most stayed with me from the book,
Mabel is up there. Mabel was a Chinese immigrant coming
to New York at a time where anti Chinese sentiment
in particular was really high. It was just a very
xenophobic time, unfortunately, like so much of American history. But
(10:30):
she was able to move to this country because her
father was a minister who could get around these really
draconian anti immigration laws by virtue of being a member
of the clergy. So he and his wife settled from
China in New York. They raised Mabel, who was by
all accounts like a stellar student, went to a very
illustrious high school, and then went to Barnard as a teenager,
(10:52):
and she immediately made a name for herself as a
really outspoken advocate for the women's vote. And it was
at this time, I'm in American history, where American women
were beginning to realize that it seemed China would enfranchise
its women.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
Before the United States did.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
There's a lot of just sort of like political and
cultural stuff wrapped up in that, but what it meant
was that people were looking to Chinese women and Chinese
teenage girls in the case of Mabel, to talk about
what liberty could look like and what the dawn of
this new kind of global world order might look like.
And Mabel, from age fifteen sixteen is giving speeches all
(11:30):
up and down New York and is very aware in
a way that I think teenage girls now would recognize
of the fact that, yes, she absolutely has something to say.
Yes she is probably smarter than a lot of the
people that she's talking to, but also she knows that
part of the reason people are interested in her is
because she is so young and because she frankly looks
different than most of the rooms in which she is speaking.
(11:51):
I think so many women today have had that experience
of kind of trying to balance internally, am I being
invited here because of the content of what I have
to say? Or am I kind of a spectacle that
people want to look at? And I think Mabel was
a person who recognized that she had to exploit every
opportunity that was available to her, even if there were
(12:12):
some nefarious undertones to why she was getting those opportunities,
and the response to her was enormous. I think now
in our current era, it's hard to imagine public speakers
becoming celebrities, but that is basically what happened to Mabel.
So there's an editorial about her that I just loved
where someone who had been at several of her talks
(12:32):
said that people didn't just leave her speeches moved. They
left mabelized by her talk. She was that charismatic that
they invented a whole new word to describe the reaction
to what she had to say. And yeah, she is
a person who is not afraid to talk down to
grown white women who are telling her why things might
(12:54):
be hard or what the politics might be. She is
uncompromising in her view of women's enfranchisement. And when actually
Harriet Stanton Blatch plans one of the biggest women's marches
of the time in the early nineteen hundreds in New York,
to have ten thousand people marching up Fifth Avenue, and
(13:14):
she needs to put someone at the front of that parade,
she puts Mabel on horseback and Mabel leads thousands and
thousands of people up Fifth Avenue. She later went on
to earn a PhD from Colombia, and as a humanities
person myself, I have to say I find it very
impressive that she got it in economics, one of the
first women and Chinese women in America to do so.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Kon so many firsts.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I looked up photos of her and she was very chic.
I know that fashion is not the most important part
of her story. But she was a very well dressed suffragette.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
I think, actually that's a really good point. One of
the things that I talked a lot about in this
book and that I do take really seriously is that
if you want to find a group of people who
are going to instantly realize how important it is to
communicate visually as well as find a group of teenage.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Girls, they really really get it.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
So from the lower mill girls who tended to wear
white and wore sashes and hats, through the suffragists who
also wore white and often wore very coordinated accessories, up
through Civil Rights, where a dress was a huge part
of activism. Teenage girls really understand that you're making a
visual impression first, and I think that we see that
up until today, So I don't think fashioness besides the
(14:25):
point at all. I'm sure Mabe would be thrilled to
hear that you recognized her game.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I love that, Maddie. Well, you mentioned the Civil Rights movement.
When we think about pioneering women of that era, the
name Rosa Parks comes to mind for most people.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It definitely comes to my mind.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And in your book you talk about a woman named
Claudette Colvin, who I hadn't heard of, what was her
role in the civil rights movement.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
So Claudette is real trailblazer stuff. And just as a
reminder of how close civil rights is to our current moment,
Claudette Colvin is still alive. She was in high school
at the height of the civil rights movement, and nine
months before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat
on a Montgomery bus in December nineteen fifty five, Claudette
(15:10):
Covin refused to give up her seat on a bus
in Montgomery in March of that same year, and she
was arrested for it. She was young, fifteen sixteen around
that time and was kind of I think, shocked to
be arrested, but had a ton of conviction about what
she was doing. Had gone into it with a very
principled stance of feeling like this level of segregation and
(15:33):
discrimination really could not stand. And what I think is
interesting is I'm sure there will be people listening to
this who have heard that name before. I think Claudette
has risen a little bit in the consciousness, which is
a great thing and a really important thing. What I
think a lot of people don't know is that she
and Rosa Parks were extremely close. Rosa Parks, before her
stand on the Montgomery bus, was actually the leader of
(15:54):
the NAACP Youth Council in Montgomery. It was her job
to mentor young people. And one of the people that
she really took under her wing, especially after her arrest,
was Claudette Colvin. History I read for this book where
as a way of demonstrating how close these two women were,
the archivists explained that they knew how the other took
her coffee. I just love that detailed the idea of
(16:17):
these two women across generations, having obviously so much in
common beyond their convictions. And you know, months later, when
Rosa Parks is thinking about what she's going to do,
she's very much thinking about the next generation and her
hopes for what the kind of lives that they may have,
and I have to imagine that she's thinking of Claudette
Colvin's example. And what's even more interesting to me about
(16:40):
Claudet is that her story doesn't even end there. So
after Rosa Parks kicks off Montgomery busboycott, and even though
Claudette Colvin feels a little sidelined that she is not
the focus of that kind of protest. She's still aged seventeen,
decides to be a plaintiff in a case that every
single man that activist approaches too afraid to participate in
(17:02):
Brouder v.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Gale.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
That leads to the ruling that segregated buses are unconstitutional,
and Claudette is at that point a teenage mom has
felt really ostracized by a lot of different people. She
could easily have walked away from this, and she decides
she's going to go through with it, and she says
on the stand one of the most iconic lines I
think in the book, when pressed who put her up
(17:24):
to this? You know who told her to do this?
She says, our leader is just we ourselves. And I
think that speaks to the way that so many teenage
girls saw themselves across history, a knowledge that no one's
coming to save you, and if you want to see
something done, if you want to see change in the world,
you're going to have to kind of be your own leader.
And that is what Claudette really symbolizes to me.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What an incredible story, what an incredible woman. Okay, Maddie,
it's time for another quick break. But when we come back,
we want to talk about student rights and the girl
who helped give students the right to express themselves in
public schools.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And we're back with Maddi Khan.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Maddie, the influence of the Supreme Court is top of
mind this week, So I want to talk about a
young woman who's part of Supreme Court history, Mary Beth Tinker.
She was a student rights pioneer who was part of
the landmark nineteen sixty nine Supreme Court decision Tinker versus
des Moines, who decided that students do not quote shed
their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at
(18:31):
the schoolhouse gate. So can you tell us more about
Mary Beth Tinker and how her legacy shows up in
schools across the country today.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, let's take it back to fashion, because
that's really what Mary Beth Tinker's whole protest is about. So,
Mary Beth Tinker and her siblings are vehemently anti the
Vietnam War. Like many young people at the time, their
parents are pacifists. They grow up totally steeped in kind
of a culture of being opposed to war and bloodshed,
and together with her brother and a friend, Mary Beth
(19:00):
decides to wear a black armband to school in protest
of the war. This is not like some crazy act
of vandalism. There is no you know, taking over the
loud speaker. But even the threat of I think a
girl stepping out of line is so just earthshaking to
school administrators that they get wind of this plot and
(19:21):
they quickly pass a resolution against black armbands and say
that if you wear one for any reason, you'll be suspended.
So Mary Beth Tinker and her brother and her friends
show up to school wearing their black armbands. They are
summarily suspended, and they decide to fight that, you know,
in court. They decide to bring a lawsuit that they
should be allowed to express their opinions even in.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
A public school.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
They should be entitled to free speech, just like everybody else.
And so what ends up happening is, yes, her case
winds its way to the Supreme Court, and the court
rules in her favor. It should be this huge victory. Congratulations,
you are a high school student who has won against
like the most institutional powers that be in country. But
when I spoke to her for the book, Mary Beth
actually said she had been tremendously disappointed because the Vietnam
(20:06):
War was going on. You know, she had undertaken this
protest to end the war, not to ratify the rights
of students to protest. And what was interesting to me,
and again what I think is sort of the interesting
part about taking the long view in a book like this,
is that she was shocked over the years to hear
from so many young people who said, I'm so glad
(20:28):
you did what you did, I'm so grateful to you,
I appreciate you. She never imagined that this case that
had actually kind of been disappointed to her in the moment,
would reverberate in this way and grant literally millions of
school children in this country the right to express their
own opinions about whatever the Vietnam War of the day
may be. Now, of course, i'm sure this week, of
all weeks, it won't surprise anyone to hear that the
(20:50):
Supreme Court has undercut the Tinker versus des Moines decisions
several times, and it is not as complete a set
of rights as we might hope, But it is the
case that every single student who goes to public school
in this country has a right to speak their mind
because of Mary Beth Tinker and even though it didn't
do exactly what she had hoped it would do. It's
(21:11):
an incredible legacy and I think again a sign that yes,
a teenage girl will recognize the power of accessory, and
it will. It can change the lives of millions.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So what do you think the future of that legacy
looks like today? The legacy that Mary Beth cemented regarding
student rights and activism on campus, because this issue is
just as relevant today as it was in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
I think there's always been a sense that young people
are misinformed. That is pervasive across American history. I think
what is interesting and what is challenging about this moment
is that where there was once time for these movements
to spread by word of mouth, they now spread very
very quickly on social media. And what that can sometimes
(21:57):
mean is that you get along with amazing, incredible, inspiring
protest things that some people would rather not see, or
you know, people glomming onto movements that maybe we wish
would not be part of them. But I think that
if you look back at history, the idea of a
pure protest or a protest that everyone can get on
board with is a fallacy. There has always been pushback
(22:19):
against young people speaking their minds. There have always been
factions of young people's protests that are more or less
palatable to the mainstream culture. I think what we need
to do as a culture is empower young people to
learn as much as possible, read as much as possible,
have as much civic literacy as possible, which is a
huge challenge in the digital age, and then accept that
(22:42):
they will come to their own conclusions as well. They should,
as generations of people who have pushed this country to
be better have done. I think that there needs to
be openness to the outrage of young people. It has
only ever made this country better. But I also think that,
and I think that this came up with so many
women I spoke to who had themselves been protesters as teenagers,
(23:05):
a feeling of despair that it also is so hard
for young people to access reliable information, to understand the
world around them, to get a sense of who they
can trust, and the absence of those kinds of institutions
I think is also a problem. But the idea that
you're ever going to stifle young people's protest, or that
(23:25):
you're ever going to shame them into having different sets
of opinions.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
All of history will prove you wrong.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I mean, every single detail that is in this book
begs to differ. I think that we need more speech,
more dialogue, more conversation, not less of it.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Amen to that.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
You wrote that girls have pushed this nation and forced
it to do better, and you've shared with us a
few of the girls and women that have forced progress
upon us in an incredible way. Is there a woman
who is currently pushing the needle and fighting for a
better world that you think we should know about?
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Oh, my goodness, Oh there are so many. I mean,
I think the one thing that I want to say
is that, and I always feel this, and I really
do feel this, even now with how much fear I
feel about many things that are going on in the
world and in this country. Writing a book that starts
in the seventeen hundreds and ends in the present has
solidified for me the reality that there is no other
(24:23):
time period I would rather be living in than right now.
There is no better time for people like us to
go back to. And if you think the world is
bad now, like when you couldn't have your own credit card,
it was worse when you couldn't have a job and
not face discrimination on the basis of sex.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
It was worse.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
So I think for all the people who listen who
feel that hopelessness, I just want to say, time travel
is not your friend, and you do not want to
go back to any previous era of American history. Unfortunately,
this is the best we've got, So we have to
operate from this place and make the world better from here.
I would say, in terms of people who inspire me now,
I think anyone who wants to feel the vitality of
(25:02):
young people who are trying to make the world a
better place should spend some time looking at the organization
Run for Something. It's an organization that Amanda Litman started
that builds out a progressive bench of candidates on school boards,
city councils, you know, local districts, state legislatures. I think
one of the things that we sometimes do as the
culture is wait for people to hit their forties and
(25:24):
fifties when they're a congressman or a senator to give
them the attention that they deserve. She brilliantly recognized that
we need people to start much earlier than that if
they're going to be the kind of leaders that we
need in this country down the line, so I find
a lot of inspiration there. I would say, I've spent
so much time over the past few months on the
phone with people who help women access abortions, who help
(25:47):
people restore the full range of reproductive choice to their lives.
I am so inspired by every single person who does
that work. I think of them truly as angels, and
I think it's amazing to be reminded that every single
person has the capacity to just help make one person's
life a little bit easier and a little bit better.
And that spirit of us taking care of us, I
(26:10):
think is what has given me a lot of solace
in a time where it feels like some of the
decisions that are being made way above our pay grades
are just impossible to fathom.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
So well, said Maddie, I'm so glad that you brought
up that it's so much better to be a woman
today than it was to be a woman in the
seventeen hundreds or before that. For me, it wasn't logan
so good back then. I think about this all the time.
I think there's so much reason for hope, for optimism,
and the future is bright. It just keeps getting brighter. Mattie,
(26:40):
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Oh thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
I hope that this gives people a little jolt of
optimism on.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
Our ambiguous Independence Day.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
But I really do feel that we all have so
much more power than we think, and I really think
history is made up by people who realize that they do.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Mattie con is a writer, editor, and the author of
Young and Restless, The Girls who Sparked America's Revolutions.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Tomorrow, we're celebrating women in the food and wine industry
ahead of the holiday weekend. We're hearing from Top Chef
winner turned host Kristin Kish, James Beard, Award winning chef
Joe Ann Lee Mullinaro aka the Korean Vegan, and Samuel
Ye Allison Morris Roslin. Listen and follow the bright Side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(27:34):
your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I'm Simone Boye.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You can find me at Simone Boye on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
That's ro Bay.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side,
Hey, fam, Hello Sunshine.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Today we're celebrating the Red, White, and Royal who's Who
of women in American history with author and editor Maddie Conn.
It's Thursday, July fourth. I'm Danielle Robe.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
And I'm Simone Voice, and this is the bright side
from Hello Sunshine, Simone.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Happy fourth of July.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Yes, Happy fourth, Danielle.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The sun is out, the barbecues are fired up, and
I'm going to be celebrating with my family in Chicago.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
How are you celebrating your fourth Sun's out? Guns out.
We're in the pool, we are drinking rose, We're eating
watermelon and delicious grilled meats.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
That's how we're celebrating today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Sounds very similar.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I think like across the board, lots of people are
celebrating in a similar way.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Are you a fireworks person?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Actually, we live on a pretty big hill, so we
have an amazing view of fireworks that are all in
the valley below us. So we have a pretty great
spot to watch the fireworks. Oh my god, that's cool.
We have a tradition. I think I'm going to get
in trouble for sharing this, but I'm going to share
it anyways. My dad is so great at setting off fireworks,
(01:17):
and so sometimes we drive to Wisconsin because it's illegal
in Illinois, and we cross the border and we get
some fireworks and he does like a whole show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
For my family. It was like the highlight of my childhood.
So I'm hoping he does it this year. It's always
a surprise. We don't know if he's going to do
it or not. He sounds like a true American revolutionary,
and that makes me think of guys like George Washington,
Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, you know, the founding fathers that
we usually talk about on days like today.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah, but there are.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Some amazing women who have been instrumental in shaping this
country and we don't talk about them often enough. I
think of the suffragists, the organizers who got women the
right to vote in nineteen twenty then help to pass
the Civil Rights Act in nineteen sixty four. The list
goes on.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Researchers estimate that women's stories make up just zero point
five percent of recorded history. And here at the bright
Side and at Hello Sunshine, one of our missions is
to try and change that, because there are so many
women's stories that are just not prominent in our history books,
which is why today we're celebrating a few of those
(02:25):
amazing stories with writer and editor Maddi Cohn.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Yes, we are giving them their flowers today, and Maddie
is going to be guiding us through all of it.
Her work has been published in The New York Times,
The Washington Post, Vogue, Harper's Bizarre, so many more. She's
covered women's issues in politics for years, and she's the
author of Young and Restless, The Girls who Sparked America's Revolutions.
Welcome to the bright Side, Mattie.
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You've written for publications like The New York Times, Glamour, Vogue, Elle.
You're so accomplished and so thoughtful, and you love stories
about women and girls. And I'm really curious as to
why you were inspired to tell these stories.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
The history of these teenage girls.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
I mean, I think I'm a person who loved being
a teenage girl. I think a lot of us feel
like the music that we listened to at that time,
the clothes that we wore, the things we were obsessed with,
the friendships that we had are still in some ways
the most determinative.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Of our lives.
Speaker 6 (03:26):
I like to think that this book came out at
exactly the right moment, because it ever so slightly predated
the Renaissance Tour and the Era's tour. And I think
anybody who saw what happened to traffic at this point worldwide,
what happened to hotel reservations, what happened to merch sales,
can gaze upon the power of teenage girls and cower
(03:49):
beneath their might. I wanted to write this book because
I felt like the kind of energy that girls bring
to what they love was something that had been treated
as for for so long in mainstream culture. And I knew,
from having spent time with teenage girls and from having
been a teenage girl, that actually you could power nuclear
(04:10):
power plants with what girls can bring to the things
that they obsess over and care about.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
So for your book, Young and Restless, you recount the
instrumental role of teenage girls throughout American history, and I
cannot wait to learn more about these women because I
am such a history nerd. I've always loved American history.
Tell us how they were central to the American Revolution.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
I mean, I think that now is the perfect time
to be talking about their legacy. Obviously, I think that
there really is no version of American freedom, or the
kind of liberty that we hope to associate with this
country and don't always live up to, without the contributions
of teenage girls. The book does start with the American Revolution,
because it starts with the founding, and I have to
(04:52):
say I had pretty low expectations for what role teenage
girls would have played in that war and in that effort,
because the category of teenager didn't even quite exist then.
And I think that we all wouldn't be surprised to
hear that the expectations for what girls would accomplish or
offer were not terribly high. But I loved talking to
academics and librarians and scholars about the various ways that
(05:15):
girls did contribute. So, whether that was running onto battlefields
and supplying medication, water, or food to soldiers, or helping
to raise militias of troops, sometimes to help their fathers
or to help their brothers, girls were right there on
the front lines from the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
So you write about the Lowell Mill girls for their
role in the labor movement, and this is after the revolution.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, yes, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
So they go on strike and they form the first
ever union of working women in the United States. Teenage
girls did this. It's incredible. Can you share the significance
of this story.
Speaker 6 (05:54):
The Lowell Mill girls were some of the earliest examples
of girls that I knew belonged in this book. Like
you said, these were girls who worked in textile mills
in Massachusetts up and down New England, kind of in
the eighteen thirties. So they are living with the memories
of their fathers and grandfathers having fought in the Revolution.
Definitely have that pioneering American spirit, and they have this
(06:18):
new role in this country where never before have groups
of girls worked and lived together in the way that
they do in these textile mills. And at first it's
this amazing opportunity. You know, don't want to sugarcoat child labor,
but it is true that, you know, they got paid
more than they ever expected to. They were treated with
a sense of value that they didn't have in their
(06:40):
family farms where they were mostly coming from. And very
quickly they learn to appreciate what is being offered to them,
and also to understand that they're not really earning their
worth and that conditions are not what they should be,
and so girls as young as ten or twelve who
are working in these textile mills band together and basically
former workers associate, like you said in early labor union,
(07:03):
to walk off the job. And you have to imagine
thousands and thousands of young women leaving their posts in
these textile mills and marching into the streets to call
for better conditions, fairer wages, with a consciousness too, of
the fact that even if their aims are not totally achieved,
it's worthwhile for them to kind of have a show
(07:24):
of force. And what I love about them is that
while they weren't successful in achieving everything that they wanted,
a generation later, several generations later, when second wave feminists
are looking for examples of girls and women in history
who did a little bit of what they're trying to do,
you know, fight for their worth and call attention to
(07:46):
their contributions, they find the writings of the Lower Mill
Girls and publish these anthologies of their work. And I
love the way grown women knew and could appreciate the
example of teenage girls as a source of inspiration, you know,
one hundred years later.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So those writings by the Lowll Mills girls you're talking
about is a publication called The Lull Offering, and the
publication was a turning point in American history.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
How so, yeah, Well, first all female newsroom in the
United States.
Speaker 5 (08:16):
The Low Offering never been done before.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
And as someone who worked at l Magazine and Glamor Magazine,
I love to see my journalistic forbears shut their stuff
in The Low Offering, maybe in a subtle way and
maybe in kind of an unappreciated way. It was a
place where they didn't have to ask for permission to be,
you know, not tucked into a corner or given a
small little bit on the margins, but really take up
(08:41):
the whole front page and to feel like the things
that they cared about were important. One of the things
I love about The Offering is that if you root
through the archives, you can find these basically money diaries
that they published, like one hundred and fifty years before
other publications are tracking women spent. They are doing it themselves,
talking about saving for education, buying watches, buying pairs of boots,
(09:05):
and they're writing all of this down. I think that
what it shows is that from a very early point
in American history, girls understood that the things that consumed
them were worth publicizing. And I think if you look
at the way girls drives culture now and so often
decide what we think of as cool or worth spending
our own money on, you can see that there's like
(09:26):
this incredible history of that going all the way back
to these labor activists who lived in the eighteen thirties.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
That's so cool, Maddie.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
We're loving all of this history, but we have to
take a short break.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Stay with us.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
We're back with author and editor Maddie Kahn.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
Okay, Maddie, I want to talk about women suffer, just
because when we think of them, names like Susan b Anthony, Elizabeth,
Katie Stanton come to mind. But you say, maybe Ping
Hua Lee was actually a trailer blazer that we need
to know about. Can you share her story?
Speaker 6 (10:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:06):
I'm obsessed with Mabel.
Speaker 6 (10:07):
I used to say, like, it's horrible to choose favorites
among your book children, but I have to say, of
the stories that have most stayed with me from the book,
Mabel is up there. Mabel was a Chinese immigrant coming
to New York at a time where anti Chinese sentiment
in particular was really high. It was just a very
xenophobic time, unfortunately, like so much of American history. But
(10:30):
she was able to move to this country because her
father was a minister who could get around these really
draconian anti immigration laws by virtue of being a member
of the clergy. So he and his wife settled from
China in New York. They raised Mabel, who was by
all accounts like a stellar student, went to a very
illustrious high school, and then went to Barnard as a teenager,
(10:52):
and she immediately made a name for herself as a
really outspoken advocate for the women's vote. And it was
at this time, I'm in American history, where American women
were beginning to realize that it seemed China would enfranchise
its women.
Speaker 5 (11:06):
Before the United States did.
Speaker 6 (11:08):
There's a lot of just sort of like political and
cultural stuff wrapped up in that, but what it meant
was that people were looking to Chinese women and Chinese
teenage girls in the case of Mabel, to talk about
what liberty could look like and what the dawn of
this new kind of global world order might look like.
And Mabel, from age fifteen sixteen is giving speeches all
(11:30):
up and down New York and is very aware in
a way that I think teenage girls now would recognize
of the fact that, yes, she absolutely has something to say.
Yes she is probably smarter than a lot of the
people that she's talking to, but also she knows that
part of the reason people are interested in her is
because she is so young and because she frankly looks
different than most of the rooms in which she is speaking.
(11:51):
I think so many women today have had that experience
of kind of trying to balance internally, am I being
invited here because of the content of what I have
to say? Or am I kind of a spectacle that
people want to look at? And I think Mabel was
a person who recognized that she had to exploit every
opportunity that was available to her, even if there were
(12:12):
some nefarious undertones to why she was getting those opportunities,
and the response to her was enormous. I think now
in our current era, it's hard to imagine public speakers
becoming celebrities, but that is basically what happened to Mabel.
So there's an editorial about her that I just loved
where someone who had been at several of her talks
(12:32):
said that people didn't just leave her speeches moved. They
left mabelized by her talk. She was that charismatic that
they invented a whole new word to describe the reaction
to what she had to say. And yeah, she is
a person who is not afraid to talk down to
grown white women who are telling her why things might
(12:54):
be hard or what the politics might be. She is
uncompromising in her view of women's enfranchisement. And when actually
Harriet Stanton Blatch plans one of the biggest women's marches
of the time in the early nineteen hundreds in New York,
to have ten thousand people marching up Fifth Avenue, and
(13:14):
she needs to put someone at the front of that parade,
she puts Mabel on horseback and Mabel leads thousands and
thousands of people up Fifth Avenue. She later went on
to earn a PhD from Colombia, and as a humanities
person myself, I have to say I find it very
impressive that she got it in economics, one of the
first women and Chinese women in America to do so.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Kon so many firsts.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I looked up photos of her and she was very chic.
I know that fashion is not the most important part
of her story. But she was a very well dressed suffragette.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
I think, actually that's a really good point. One of
the things that I talked a lot about in this
book and that I do take really seriously is that
if you want to find a group of people who
are going to instantly realize how important it is to
communicate visually as well as find a group of teenage.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Girls, they really really get it.
Speaker 6 (14:04):
So from the lower mill girls who tended to wear
white and wore sashes and hats, through the suffragists who
also wore white and often wore very coordinated accessories, up
through Civil Rights, where a dress was a huge part
of activism. Teenage girls really understand that you're making a
visual impression first, and I think that we see that
up until today, So I don't think fashioness besides the
(14:25):
point at all. I'm sure Mabe would be thrilled to
hear that you recognized her game.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I love that, Maddie. Well, you mentioned the Civil Rights movement.
When we think about pioneering women of that era, the
name Rosa Parks comes to mind for most people.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
It definitely comes to my mind.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
And in your book you talk about a woman named
Claudette Colvin, who I hadn't heard of, what was her
role in the civil rights movement.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
So Claudette is real trailblazer stuff. And just as a
reminder of how close civil rights is to our current moment,
Claudette Colvin is still alive. She was in high school
at the height of the civil rights movement, and nine
months before Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat
on a Montgomery bus in December nineteen fifty five, Claudette
(15:10):
Covin refused to give up her seat on a bus
in Montgomery in March of that same year, and she
was arrested for it. She was young, fifteen sixteen around
that time and was kind of I think, shocked to
be arrested, but had a ton of conviction about what
she was doing. Had gone into it with a very
principled stance of feeling like this level of segregation and
(15:33):
discrimination really could not stand. And what I think is
interesting is I'm sure there will be people listening to
this who have heard that name before. I think Claudette
has risen a little bit in the consciousness, which is
a great thing and a really important thing. What I
think a lot of people don't know is that she
and Rosa Parks were extremely close. Rosa Parks, before her
stand on the Montgomery bus, was actually the leader of
(15:54):
the NAACP Youth Council in Montgomery. It was her job
to mentor young people. And one of the people that
she really took under her wing, especially after her arrest,
was Claudette Colvin. History I read for this book where
as a way of demonstrating how close these two women were,
the archivists explained that they knew how the other took
her coffee. I just love that detailed the idea of
(16:17):
these two women across generations, having obviously so much in
common beyond their convictions. And you know, months later, when
Rosa Parks is thinking about what she's going to do,
she's very much thinking about the next generation and her
hopes for what the kind of lives that they may have,
and I have to imagine that she's thinking of Claudette
Colvin's example. And what's even more interesting to me about
(16:40):
Claudet is that her story doesn't even end there. So
after Rosa Parks kicks off Montgomery busboycott, and even though
Claudette Colvin feels a little sidelined that she is not
the focus of that kind of protest. She's still aged seventeen,
decides to be a plaintiff in a case that every
single man that activist approaches too afraid to participate in
(17:02):
Brouder v.
Speaker 5 (17:03):
Gale.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
That leads to the ruling that segregated buses are unconstitutional,
and Claudette is at that point a teenage mom has
felt really ostracized by a lot of different people. She
could easily have walked away from this, and she decides
she's going to go through with it, and she says
on the stand one of the most iconic lines I
think in the book, when pressed who put her up
(17:24):
to this? You know who told her to do this?
She says, our leader is just we ourselves. And I
think that speaks to the way that so many teenage
girls saw themselves across history, a knowledge that no one's
coming to save you, and if you want to see
something done, if you want to see change in the world,
you're going to have to kind of be your own leader.
And that is what Claudette really symbolizes to me.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
What an incredible story, what an incredible woman. Okay, Maddie,
it's time for another quick break. But when we come back,
we want to talk about student rights and the girl
who helped give students the right to express themselves in
public schools.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
And we're back with Maddi Khan.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Maddie, the influence of the Supreme Court is top of
mind this week, So I want to talk about a
young woman who's part of Supreme Court history, Mary Beth Tinker.
She was a student rights pioneer who was part of
the landmark nineteen sixty nine Supreme Court decision Tinker versus
des Moines, who decided that students do not quote shed
their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at
(18:31):
the schoolhouse gate. So can you tell us more about
Mary Beth Tinker and how her legacy shows up in
schools across the country today.
Speaker 6 (18:39):
Yeah, I mean, let's take it back to fashion, because
that's really what Mary Beth Tinker's whole protest is about. So,
Mary Beth Tinker and her siblings are vehemently anti the
Vietnam War. Like many young people at the time, their
parents are pacifists. They grow up totally steeped in kind
of a culture of being opposed to war and bloodshed,
and together with her brother and a friend, Mary Beth
(19:00):
decides to wear a black armband to school in protest
of the war. This is not like some crazy act
of vandalism. There is no you know, taking over the
loud speaker. But even the threat of I think a
girl stepping out of line is so just earthshaking to
school administrators that they get wind of this plot and
(19:21):
they quickly pass a resolution against black armbands and say
that if you wear one for any reason, you'll be suspended.
So Mary Beth Tinker and her brother and her friends
show up to school wearing their black armbands. They are
summarily suspended, and they decide to fight that, you know,
in court. They decide to bring a lawsuit that they
should be allowed to express their opinions even in.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
A public school.
Speaker 6 (19:43):
They should be entitled to free speech, just like everybody else.
And so what ends up happening is, yes, her case
winds its way to the Supreme Court, and the court
rules in her favor. It should be this huge victory. Congratulations,
you are a high school student who has won against
like the most institutional powers that be in country. But
when I spoke to her for the book, Mary Beth
actually said she had been tremendously disappointed because the Vietnam
(20:06):
War was going on. You know, she had undertaken this
protest to end the war, not to ratify the rights
of students to protest. And what was interesting to me,
and again what I think is sort of the interesting
part about taking the long view in a book like this,
is that she was shocked over the years to hear
from so many young people who said, I'm so glad
(20:28):
you did what you did, I'm so grateful to you,
I appreciate you. She never imagined that this case that
had actually kind of been disappointed to her in the moment,
would reverberate in this way and grant literally millions of
school children in this country the right to express their
own opinions about whatever the Vietnam War of the day
may be. Now, of course, i'm sure this week, of
all weeks, it won't surprise anyone to hear that the
(20:50):
Supreme Court has undercut the Tinker versus des Moines decisions
several times, and it is not as complete a set
of rights as we might hope, But it is the
case that every single student who goes to public school
in this country has a right to speak their mind
because of Mary Beth Tinker and even though it didn't
do exactly what she had hoped it would do. It's
(21:11):
an incredible legacy and I think again a sign that yes,
a teenage girl will recognize the power of accessory, and
it will. It can change the lives of millions.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
So what do you think the future of that legacy
looks like today? The legacy that Mary Beth cemented regarding
student rights and activism on campus, because this issue is
just as relevant today as it was in nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 6 (21:35):
I think there's always been a sense that young people
are misinformed. That is pervasive across American history. I think
what is interesting and what is challenging about this moment
is that where there was once time for these movements
to spread by word of mouth, they now spread very
very quickly on social media. And what that can sometimes
(21:57):
mean is that you get along with amazing, incredible, inspiring
protest things that some people would rather not see, or
you know, people glomming onto movements that maybe we wish
would not be part of them. But I think that
if you look back at history, the idea of a
pure protest or a protest that everyone can get on
board with is a fallacy. There has always been pushback
(22:19):
against young people speaking their minds. There have always been
factions of young people's protests that are more or less
palatable to the mainstream culture. I think what we need
to do as a culture is empower young people to
learn as much as possible, read as much as possible,
have as much civic literacy as possible, which is a
huge challenge in the digital age, and then accept that
(22:42):
they will come to their own conclusions as well. They should,
as generations of people who have pushed this country to
be better have done. I think that there needs to
be openness to the outrage of young people. It has
only ever made this country better. But I also think that,
and I think that this came up with so many
women I spoke to who had themselves been protesters as teenagers,
(23:05):
a feeling of despair that it also is so hard
for young people to access reliable information, to understand the
world around them, to get a sense of who they
can trust, and the absence of those kinds of institutions
I think is also a problem. But the idea that
you're ever going to stifle young people's protest, or that
(23:25):
you're ever going to shame them into having different sets
of opinions.
Speaker 5 (23:29):
All of history will prove you wrong.
Speaker 6 (23:31):
I mean, every single detail that is in this book
begs to differ. I think that we need more speech,
more dialogue, more conversation, not less of it.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Amen to that.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
You wrote that girls have pushed this nation and forced
it to do better, and you've shared with us a
few of the girls and women that have forced progress
upon us in an incredible way. Is there a woman
who is currently pushing the needle and fighting for a
better world that you think we should know about?
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Oh, my goodness, Oh there are so many. I mean,
I think the one thing that I want to say
is that, and I always feel this, and I really
do feel this, even now with how much fear I
feel about many things that are going on in the
world and in this country. Writing a book that starts
in the seventeen hundreds and ends in the present has
solidified for me the reality that there is no other
(24:23):
time period I would rather be living in than right now.
There is no better time for people like us to
go back to. And if you think the world is
bad now, like when you couldn't have your own credit card,
it was worse when you couldn't have a job and
not face discrimination on the basis of sex.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
It was worse.
Speaker 6 (24:41):
So I think for all the people who listen who
feel that hopelessness, I just want to say, time travel
is not your friend, and you do not want to
go back to any previous era of American history. Unfortunately,
this is the best we've got, So we have to
operate from this place and make the world better from here.
I would say, in terms of people who inspire me now,
I think anyone who wants to feel the vitality of
(25:02):
young people who are trying to make the world a
better place should spend some time looking at the organization
Run for Something. It's an organization that Amanda Litman started
that builds out a progressive bench of candidates on school boards,
city councils, you know, local districts, state legislatures. I think
one of the things that we sometimes do as the
culture is wait for people to hit their forties and
(25:24):
fifties when they're a congressman or a senator to give
them the attention that they deserve. She brilliantly recognized that
we need people to start much earlier than that if
they're going to be the kind of leaders that we
need in this country down the line, so I find
a lot of inspiration there. I would say, I've spent
so much time over the past few months on the
phone with people who help women access abortions, who help
(25:47):
people restore the full range of reproductive choice to their lives.
I am so inspired by every single person who does
that work. I think of them truly as angels, and
I think it's amazing to be reminded that every single
person has the capacity to just help make one person's
life a little bit easier and a little bit better.
And that spirit of us taking care of us, I
(26:10):
think is what has given me a lot of solace
in a time where it feels like some of the
decisions that are being made way above our pay grades
are just impossible to fathom.
Speaker 3 (26:18):
So well, said Maddie, I'm so glad that you brought
up that it's so much better to be a woman
today than it was to be a woman in the
seventeen hundreds or before that. For me, it wasn't logan
so good back then. I think about this all the time.
I think there's so much reason for hope, for optimism,
and the future is bright. It just keeps getting brighter. Mattie,
(26:40):
thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Oh thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 6 (26:44):
I hope that this gives people a little jolt of
optimism on.
Speaker 5 (26:47):
Our ambiguous Independence Day.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
But I really do feel that we all have so
much more power than we think, and I really think
history is made up by people who realize that they do.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Mattie con is a writer, editor, and the author of
Young and Restless, The Girls who Sparked America's Revolutions.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
That's it for today's show.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Tomorrow, we're celebrating women in the food and wine industry
ahead of the holiday weekend. We're hearing from Top Chef
winner turned host Kristin Kish, James Beard, Award winning chef
Joe Ann Lee Mullinaro aka the Korean Vegan, and Samuel
Ye Allison Morris Roslin. Listen and follow the bright Side
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
(27:34):
your podcasts.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I'm Simone Boye.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You can find me at Simone Boye on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I'm Danielle Robe on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
That's ro Bay.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
See you tomorrow, folks. Keep looking on the bright side,
Host
Simone Boyce
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