March 19, 2024 • 38 mins
Episode 2 of 10
Steve chases down the legendary detective. He hasn’t talked in years, but after tracking him to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, Louie starts to sing. We learn about his uncle, the mobster who Louie must investigate for murder.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well
as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The
serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,
I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's
a series called The Burden Empire on Blood, and it's
the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,
(00:22):
which reached number one on the charts when it debuted
half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders
abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled
to share this story of a man who fought the
law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide
prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Luis Scarcela
(00:44):
of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Previously on The Burden.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So my editor says to me, what else do the
cases having comment?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
He was everybody's idea of the Prince of the City.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
To me, he's no better than a serial killer, right,
because you killed people's dreams.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
I go to the book in District Attorney's office, sit down, like,
all right, what is it?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We're reopening all of Scarcella's cases, and I'm like, oh
my god, oh yeah, I'm the devil in the disgraced devil.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah. When Louis Scarcella was prince of the city, arresting
the worst criminals, solving the toughest cases, he loved to talk.
He loved the spotlight. He once went on The Doctor
(01:51):
Phil Show.
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Really good detectives all born with this sixth sense, that
crystal ball in the stomach.
Speaker 7 (01:59):
Then ten years ago, the Brooklyn DA reopened more than
fifty cases investigated by Scarcella and Louis.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, he shut up.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Detective Lewis Scarcella declined to talk.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I have no comment. I'm really not at liberty to
go into it now.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But I needed to talk to Louis. I wanted to
talk to Louis.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
Why though, I mean, if he talks, we already know
what he's gonna say.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I mean, here he was testifying.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Do you stand by all the investigations.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You can go one hundred and ten percent.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Trust me on this. We're gonna get beyond the rhetoric.
We don't know what we don't know yet. All we
need to do is get him to talk. If we
can get him to talk at all. I've been trying.
I've been phoning, I've been leaving messages, I've been reaching
out to people who are supposed to know him, and
then one afternoon I'm at home and my phone lan,
(03:02):
is that Louie?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Okay, now, okay, I don't want to talk over the funk.
I think we should meet.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
What I gotta say, Steve, You are so persistent.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh I am persistent. I will stalk you, I will
annoy you. Get out of my way.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Okay, let's keep it going.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
At the park you diner two thirty. Thanks Louis, you
got it. Louie enters in a T shirt and sandals,
like he's dressed for summer camp. He's got tattoos up
and down his arms. He's not imposing, not tall, doesn't
(03:47):
have a swagger. He's sixty eight, but he is in
good shape. Clearly a workout guy and a picky eater.
Do you have any peanut butter? He beat you piece
le Roy toasting with peanut butter on the side. He
seemed comfortable, but he was cagey. Let me explain something
to you. You have no idea.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You don't know anything yet, buddy.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I mean I gotta say.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
If there's one thing that's pretty clear here is that
he's not saying he's not gonna talk.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I'm with you on that, but Louis is definitely not
jumping in. Let's talk and let's meet again. Let's talk
and let's meet again. And so begins a series of
tests and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
What the ves as you did?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Our next meeting is at Louie's favorite Russian math house,
where he beats me with eight news. It takes the
toxins out of your body.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
It's like a third kidney.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I'm lying on a bench in the song by the way,
I hate song as they are so hot. But Louis,
he tells me he loves this place.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's like a religious study. They go in, they shitch,
they sweating.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
All right.
Speaker 7 (05:07):
So at this point are you clear how far are
you gonna go with this thing with this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Oh, my friend, I am willing to go to the end,
whatever it takes. And then Louis insists I plunge into
the ocean off Coney Island again and again.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Make sure your bathing should come come off.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well I did it last time. Yeah, it did, certainly did.
The water is now winter cold, and by the way
I hate freezing water. But Louis, he's past president of
the Polar Bear Club and so he insists it's healthy.
I take the plunge, all right, Louis, what is it
(05:54):
you love about this crazy sport? And then after all
the hazing, Louie issue is a verdict. He went in
the ice bed, he went in the ocean with me
and pass the test, right, that's the test. So we
(06:15):
got Louis Scarcella in the studio ready to talk like
he's never talked before. I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all
a poll you need.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I'm out of the bottom.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm gonna set you free. I'm Dax Devlin Ross and
I'm Steve Fishman from Orbit Media.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
This is the burden.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
In this episode, the confessions of Louis Scarcella. What connects
these cases? A lot of them are the same cop.
They are all that stand between us and lawlessness.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Smoke behind the stone.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
It's absolutely positively not in his construction to frame someone.
He's just not that kind of a person. I really,
really truly want the people to know me. I don't
know if it's.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Ever going to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You gotta hold all the time, so start me off here.
(07:54):
You know we're doing audio. Yeah, describe what do you
look like today? I have to describe what I look like.
That's very hard for a person to do, but I will.
I will.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Male, white Caucasian.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't know what the proper terrim is today, but
I'm white Italian.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I have about
twenty two tattoos. I'm in fairly decent shape for sixty
eight year old man, and according to the New York Post,
my hair is thinning. And out of all the things
they said about me that hurt me, the most.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
One thing I will say. After I began talking to
Louis regularly, it became clear that one of the reasons
he was engaging with us he felt isolated. His own
community had shunned him. He couldn't even get a job
at the local pool. The reason given bad publicity. I
(09:04):
was a highly decorated detective. They say I had three
rooms full.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Of metal citations, plaques. I made three trips to the
Pound and State linemand burned everything.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
I want no part of it.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I felt so separated, so separated from the police department,
so separated from the DA's office.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But let's start at the beginning. Louis grew up in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn,
an Italian neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Italians don't move from each other. We stayed together. My
grandmother was at fourteen on one sixty six Street. I
was at fourteen fifteen sixty sixth Street. My father's mother
and sisters were at fourteen forty seven sixty six Street.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Street was the Catholic school in the Catholic Church. Everybody
in the neighborhood was Catholic. Louis was an altar boy. Still,
the nuns at school beat him regularly because he couldn't
do math. His family didn't have much in the way
of means. Four people lived in a one bedroom apartment.
Despite it all, Louis has really good memories of childhood.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Getting up at six o'clock on Sunday morning, listening to
the meatballs hit the oil and garlic.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I could hear it, I could hear him sissling, and
I could smell it.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I used to get up and I would walk up
up the block, serve mass and then I would run
down the block and my grandmother would look out the
window and in an aluminum foil should have two meat balls,
and I used to catch them and I used to
eat one here and one going upstairs.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
In Louis community, it could seem like there were just
two paths in life. Worked for the government or joined
the mob. Louie's family members did. Both his father and
his brother were cops. And then there was Uncle Nicky,
known to most as Nicky Black. Let's just say Nicky
(11:21):
led an action packed life. It was not unheard of
for bullets to come crashing through his car windshield. One time.
Louis was even in the car with him. Sold were
you when you were in the car with Nicky?
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Black?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Shots came to me right right right.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I was probably about probably about eleven years old.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Okay, so what's that like for you? As shots coming
through the windshield was fucking unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I guess I was scared. I really didn't know what
was happening, but I knew what was happening. It was
like surreal. And he was really calm. He was really
really calm.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean, you must have thought your uncle was a
little unusual to him. Bullets come through the window, Nicky
was did your mom explained it to your father?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
They didn't have to. They didn't have to explain anything
to me.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I knew it was organized.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Crist Yeah, I mean, come on, yeah, I would be
lying if I told you no.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But mob ties they didn't change Louie's feelings for his uncle.
Louie had a deep sense of right and wrong, and
he admired his dad the cop. But Louie he adored
his uncle, Nicki the criminal.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Nicky was one of the most honorable men I ever
met in my life, and he played a crazy part
in my life, a big part in my life. And
think about them all the time.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Louis needed money to register for Little League, so Nicki
gave him his first job. Louie's father was quiet, Nicki,
charismatic and tough. He was the type of man that
Louis Scarcela wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
He was the biggest fucking man. I knew he was
a man. He was a man. He was the epitome
what a man was.
Speaker 7 (13:29):
And listening to him, you think he'd want to join
the mob. I mean, as much as he had idolized
his uncle.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Absolutely Listen, whenever I heard Louis talk about his uncle Nikki,
I could hear the excitement in his voice. You could
hear this deep connection he felt. But then it came
time to choose a path, and Louie, I think what
he really wanted was some combination. He wants his dad's badge,
his dad's respectability, and his uncle's swagger.
Speaker 7 (14:00):
As I listened to the way you're describing it, all,
he chooses to become a cop, but he's got this
weird reference for the mob.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
At least a reverence for one particular mobster. Louis joined
the police force in the early seventies, and he excelled.
His record contains twenty five commendations from his first few years.
Soon he was promoted to the anti crime unit. His
assignment stopped crime in progress. At that point, Louis steps
(14:34):
out of uniform and into plane clothes. He grows a
beard and a ponytail, and he bulkes up. Louis could
bench press four hundred and five pounds, and that earned
him a nickname. They called me the Hulk. Yes, Louis
the Hulk.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Louis the Hulk. How did you like that?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I didn't mind. I had a couple of nicknames, but
that one stuck with me. That one stuck with me
for a long time.
Speaker 7 (15:00):
It sounds like he at least thinks he's living in
a movie.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, and uh, it's an action adventure movie. I mean, listen,
the Hulk is gonna go out and he's gonna fight crime,
and he's gonna do it hand to hand if necessary.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I see him breaking into the building and I chase
him through the vestibule, up the stairs and we're running
through the roof and my partner goes through the roof.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
He was hanging between a on a beam.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
Louis, by the way, keeps going after the bad guy.
I get the guy and he throws a punch at me,
and I hit him with the light right here in
the lip and knock.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Him down, and then the Hulk goes back to rescue
his partner lifts him back onto the roof. One key
thing about Louis Dax he never stops working cop. That's
his idea identity, not his job. He feels like he's
got a mission. He's got a mission to do justice,
(16:07):
even if it isn't exactly by the book. Like there's
this one time he spots a guy hit another guy
and herp starts running. Louie's off duty. He doesn't have
a car. I run across the street. There's a gypsy
cap Give me a fucking car. I'm a cop, get out.
I need your fucking car.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
Give me the call.
Speaker 7 (16:27):
So if I'm in the movie version of this, I
imagine the guy gives up the car.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yes he does, and I'm weaving in and out of traffic,
and Louis goes on a high speed chase through the
streets of Brooklyn. I mean like sixty miles an hour.
Speaker 7 (16:49):
All right, Steve, I've lived in Brooklyn. I know these
exact streets. There's only one way to describe what we're
listening to. It's out of control behavior, Dax.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I hear what you're saying. But listen, this was a
different time. Crime was rampant. Citizens, voters were afraid, and
they are telling politicians every day that it's the city
that's out of control New York City.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
So what you're telling me, I said, Louis Garcelo was
a man of his times.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
A man four the times. I'm trying to tell you
that Louis Scarcela was just what the citizens ordered up.
It's just what the city believed it needed. That's after
the break.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
There was a stick up today by a small gang
of bandits or pistol whipped a teenager and shot their
guns into the air.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But what makes this so unusual?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It all happened on a city bus.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Louise heyday with New York in the eighties and nineties.
People who didn't live there, they actually can't believe what
it was like.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
I lived there.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I lived in a fifth floor walk up apartment that
was burglarized five times, five times in just a few years.
There was constant danger. There was always some sense of
threat in the air, and we didn't feel like there
was protection or refuge. We didn't feel like there were
guardrails out there.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
A four year old Ron's girl could not escape danger
even in her own bedroom.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
She was shocked.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
Is it proof that we're facing a situation unlike anything
we've ever had before? Well, I've never had a year, Jim,
When there's going to be two thousand murders.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
Nineteen ninety was the deadliest year on record, more than
twenty two hundred murders. For context, that's about five times
more murders than New York City had in twenty twenty two.
And back in Louis's day, Brooklyn in his territory it
had more than any other borough.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I would leave work at night and hear the shots
of my next homicide the next morning.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
The conversation dominating the city back then was this, something
needs to be done. Nobody knew what to do, but
something's got to be done.
Speaker 7 (19:33):
Inter Mayor David Dinkins, new York City's first black mayor.
He comes into office in nineteen ninety and is immediately
under tremendous pressure to fix a broken city.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
In the fight against drugs and the crime they cause.
I an't prepared to do anything to take back our
streets by night as well as by day. You know,
there's this famous headline in the New York Post, Dave
do something and so Dave. That's Mayor David Dinkins response options.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
David Dinkins announced he will hire more than a thousand
city cops so they'll be on the job.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
It's important to note that Mayor Dinkins started his term
as a reformer. Social programs were what he was all about,
what he was advancing, But almost overnight everything turned and
he put his faith in the cops.
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Among those in our police department, they are all that
stand between us and lawlessness.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So you have to remember that the cops are seen
almost like anointed, as saviors of the city.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And let me guess who embrace that role more than
anybody else.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I felt like I am the protector of these people.
I am the guardian that they need, and I'm going
to do the job, and I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It and get the fuck out of my way. Get
the fuck out of my way. And so in a
city in trouble, Louis Garsella was cast as a hero,
and back then, a hero had plenty to do. I
caught thirty six murders in one year. Some guys today
never do that in the career. My father was a
(21:12):
homicide detective in Manhattan South. He didn't catch thirty six
and ten years. It's the early nineteen nineties and Louis
Garcella is an ace detective. He's got movie star good looks,
He's got his uncle swagger. He smokes a cigar everywhere
he goes. He upgrades his wardrobe, coats and ties. Now
(21:33):
he always looks immaculate.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Some people said I come straight out of central casting,
that I was dressed for the part like I had
a cigar, and I walked a little bit like my
shit didn't stink.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Then one more thing. He was having the time of
his life.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I used to turn to my partners and say, they
give us a shield, they give us a gun, and
they give us a car. They'd say, go out and
look a beer, guys, and then.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
They pay us for it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
They paid us. I had the best job in the world.
I loved it.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Soon Louis was promoted to Brooklyn North Homicide.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
There were so many homicides in Brooklyn at that time
that the city formed an elite detective squad whose only
job was to arrest murderers. Back then, the South crimes,
Louis didn't rely on fingerprints or forensics or DNA, none
of those was widespread. Louis Garcela relied on another tool,
(22:43):
his instincts, his ability to read people, his street smarts.
Louis says that on the job, his instincts were never wrong.
It's a six or seventh sense that you get.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I know people. In fact, there were a number of
times on the job where everybody said no and I
said yes, And believe it or not, it came back
around and I was right now.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Blowing my own hornets. Just fact, my instincts will give me.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
A very good route to an individual and a very
good route to the District Attorney's office to arrest an individual.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
I mean, one thing is for sure I can say
this about him, is he's not the humble type.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Louis developed a reputation that kind of backed that up.
He became known as the closer. He was the guy
who could crack the hardest cases, the guy who could
get the confession that no other detective could get.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
The only thing I did good in my life, and
it certainly wasn't that arithmetic was eliciting information from people
who were reluctant to give it.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That's in a minute.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Let's talk about this gift and how it shows up
in Louie's ability to do the one thing that he
becomes most famous for, getting confessions.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
One point here, it's not just that Louie is bragging
about getting confessions. I talked to a bunch of cops
who actually believe Louie had a gift. There was his
boss at Brooklyn North Homicide who claimed he was the
best at getting witnesses to talk. Another detective swore he
witnessed a young suspect behind bars flagged Louie down. He
(24:58):
only wanted to fest to Louie, to no one else.
Speaker 7 (25:03):
And it was his reputation for getting confessions that got
him on the Doctor Phil Show.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
No one knows the art of getting confessions better than
twenty nine year better in New York City Homicide Detective.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
This Doctor Phil appearance is going to get Louis in
a lot of trouble later. But that day under the spotlight,
Louis lays it all out the world. According to Louis scarsella.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Are their rules when it comes to homicides? No, no,
there are no. I will do whatever I have to
do within the law to get a confession or to
get someone to cooperate with me.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I lied to him. I will use deception.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
The bad guys don't play by the rules when they
kill moms, shoot them in the head, groom, the lives
of their family. I don't play by the rules.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Louis didn't play by the rules. He said that twice.
Though to be fair, he also specifies that he do
whatever it takes within the law.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
See, I don't know if I buy that. To me,
it sounds like he's perfectly willing to been the law
to suit his needs.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
But you know, cops are allowed to use deception, they
are allowed to lie. It's surprising. It surprised me, but
the Supreme Court says it's fair practice. And Louis he
was an able practitioner.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Now boarding American Eagle flight for Syracuse. Okay, you get
up boarding.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Pissed.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Louis and his partner are transporting a suspect from Syracuse,
New York to Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
We get on the plane, take off, going up to this.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
End the plane, it's air pocket. So what are you experiencing?
The plane's going like you know, it's you know, I
don't down bound. Yeah, I was scared.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I was scared.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
The suspect is shackled in the plane seat and Louie
has arranged for the flight attendant to do him a
little favor.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I said, just come on and whisper in my ear.
You could say anything you want. Annie, just whisper in
my ear for about five or six seconds, and she did.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Louis turns to his suspect in the seat next to him.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I gotta take your shackles off because there may be trouble.
We may go down, and you gotta swim.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And he said swim.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And I said, well, this is it, And according to Louis,
he confessed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
He confessed. I believe I took his statement on a
cocktail napkin.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And the code to that story is classic, Louie. You
don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's
a great story. Louis claims he and his partner and
the quote unquote bad guy go to the airport bar
and they all have shots women.
Speaker 7 (27:58):
Even the suspect gets to drink. I don't know about you,
but I don't know exactly what he's celebrating.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I have two scotches.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
My partner has two scotches, and he has a scotch.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
The bad guy.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Louis, Yes, sir, So you tell this guy he's gonna die.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I didn't say that. I said it's a possibility that
there's trouble and the plane's going to go down.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And I have to give you a chance to save
your life. Why the fuck does he confess at that
point he's gonna he can die with the secret?
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Well, he he he. I guess it was the fear
of God and and and cleansing his soul because he
told me and and and he told the DA and
he went on camera. Well, yeah, I believe everybody wants
to confess. It was just another hunch and it worked.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I want to tell you about another kid that Louie investigated.
This one is from earlier in his career, and this
time his instincts didn't come through. He couldn't get the confession,
could not make the arrest. It was my first homicide
in the six to sixth Priescinct. John Aretico was shot
(29:21):
four times in the chest with teflon colored bullets. He
died at the scene, and he was in four inches
of snow. Louis Is a message came in over the switchboard.
I look at the message and if I could have
gave birth at that time, I would have. It said
(29:43):
Nick Grancio killed John Aretico. NICKI my uncle.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
That's his beloved uncle, Nicki, the mobster, the one who
he calls the most honorable man he's ever met, even
to this day.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Command that said, Louis, you got to run with it.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So you are assigned to investigate my uncle Nicki Black.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I'm interviewing my uncle as a suspect in.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
This murder at his house. Yeah, what does he say
to you?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
He said the kid was not a good kid. Okay,
The deceased was not a good kid.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Did you come to the point where you have to say,
h uncle, Nikki, did you kill this guy? Quite possibly?
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I don't, you know, I don't remember. Maybe I don't
want to remember.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I really don't. I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I was prepared.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
To go as far as I could go with the case,
and if Nicki killed him, I had to lock him up.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And I don't think Nikki would have a problem with that.
NICKI did kill him. The FBI proved it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
I didn't prove it, but that's what they proved.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
The FBI didn't actually prove it, but an informant told
them that Nicky was responsible and Louis he did seem
to believe his uncle was the murderer. The motive.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Was that he turned Nicky's.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Thought onto drugs. This is aretico aritata guy.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I was never able to prove that, but that was
the scenario we were getting.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
The NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau looked into the case after
a complaint. Had a nephew investigating his uncle done an
honest job. And here I was a new detective and
I'm under this investigation and I come out of it
smelling like a RAS.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Actually it's not that straightforward. We have a copy of
the internal affairs report, and to call it an investigation
is a bit of a stretch. The main witness interviewed
was none other than Louie for about ten minutes. Now,
it's true there were no charges filed, and his supervisors
did know he was investigating his uncle. But it seems
(32:16):
pretty clear that Louie fudged some of the details. I mean,
he said he didn't know Nicki was an organized crime
come on, and then he said he only talked to
Nicki because he was well known in the neighborhood and
that uncle Nicki was never a suspect. But it's Louie
who said Nicki was a suspect in the first place.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Nicki wasn't arrested, No one was. I don't think Louie
was entirely unhappy about that. In truth, Louie was sympathetic
to his uncle.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
We had a phrase, unfortunately enough, public service murder.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
This fit the criteria por John Iretko public service murder.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Uh. I'm not gonna disrespect his family. I'm not gonna
disrespect him. But regard to Nicky Black, I'm sure he
had that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Feeling.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I'm sure he thinks he deserves to die. I'm sure
he thinks he deserves.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
To die, and so does Louis. One day we're at
a diner. Turns out it was Uncle Nicky's favorite diner
where he and Louie used to eat off it.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Let me ask you a question, God forbid, you had
a daughter and and P. D.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Johnson hooked her up on drugs? Bag would you kill him?
I really want to quit. When you're not in my blood,
I said, I would really want to kill him, but
it's not in my blood.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I believe I would have did this. I would have
probably did the same thing, taken care of the guy
and just turned myself in.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Maybe Uncle Nikki did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Well except for that whole turn himself in part.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
You see, he's very hard to me to call my
uncle a murder, right, well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
You know he really is.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
What Ah, I just don't like the all right, he
was a murder?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Does that make it happen? And it's just hard to
do it. I don't like, but he was.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 7 (34:40):
I don't expect Louis to stop loving his uncle because
he committed Hanus crimes. I even understand that he can
find honor in his uncle, a murderer, But when it
comes to young black men like Shabaka Shakur and Derek Hamilton,
the guys we met last episode, guys who were accused
of the same crimes as his uncle. Can Louis see
honor in them? Or are these just young black men
(35:03):
always going to be dismissed as quote unquote bad guys.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Next time on The Burden, Shabaka and Derek and a
band of convicted murderers form a law firm in prison. Together,
they take aim at one detective.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
It really wasn't until me and Derek had the conversation
and Derek said, yeah, he's a cop in my case too,
And that's when it hit me. We got enough cases
to be able to expose Grsela as a crooked cop.
That's the only way we're going to win.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I'm the sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Now, I'm out of the bottle.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by
Steve Fishman and That's Me. It's hosted and reported by
Steve Fishman and Dax Devlyn Ross. Story editor is Dan Bobkoff.
Our senior producer is Simon Rentner. Our producer is Sanam Skelly.
Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Our
(36:17):
production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design by
Mumbo Media. Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens, Evan Williams
and me Steve Fishman. Additional production help from Josie Holtzman,
Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner, Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel,
Priscilla Alabi, Saxon Baird, Katie Simon, and Katie Spranger. We
(36:40):
give special thanks to Ellen Horn, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe,
Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey, Lyla Robinson, Mark Smerling and Zack
Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to Marcy Wiseman. Special thanks
to our agents Ben Davis and Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook
provided our legal advice. She's from MKSR LP. And a
(37:04):
very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive
producers and the person who made this podcast possible. We
are honored to feature the song black Lightning. From the
bel Rays as our theme music. The Burden is a
production of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Number one.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be
available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All
episodes will be available early and ad free, along with
exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse,
our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety
(37:59):
nine a month.
Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well
as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The
serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden,
I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's
a series called The Burden Empire on Blood, and it's
the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood,
(00:22):
which reached number one on the charts when it debuted
half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders
abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled
to share this story of a man who fought the
law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide
prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Luis Scarcela
(00:44):
of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Previously on The Burden.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So my editor says to me, what else do the
cases having comment?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
He was everybody's idea of the Prince of the City.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
To me, he's no better than a serial killer, right,
because you killed people's dreams.
Speaker 5 (01:12):
I go to the book in District Attorney's office, sit down, like,
all right, what is it?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
We're reopening all of Scarcella's cases, and I'm like, oh
my god, oh yeah, I'm the devil in the disgraced devil.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah. When Louis Scarcella was prince of the city, arresting
the worst criminals, solving the toughest cases, he loved to talk.
He loved the spotlight. He once went on The Doctor
(01:51):
Phil Show.
Speaker 6 (01:52):
Really good detectives all born with this sixth sense, that
crystal ball in the stomach.
Speaker 7 (01:59):
Then ten years ago, the Brooklyn DA reopened more than
fifty cases investigated by Scarcella and Louis.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, he shut up.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Detective Lewis Scarcella declined to talk.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
I have no comment. I'm really not at liberty to
go into it now.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
But I needed to talk to Louis. I wanted to
talk to Louis.
Speaker 7 (02:22):
Why though, I mean, if he talks, we already know
what he's gonna say.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
I mean, here he was testifying.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Do you stand by all the investigations.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
You can go one hundred and ten percent.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Trust me on this. We're gonna get beyond the rhetoric.
We don't know what we don't know yet. All we
need to do is get him to talk. If we
can get him to talk at all. I've been trying.
I've been phoning, I've been leaving messages, I've been reaching
out to people who are supposed to know him, and
then one afternoon I'm at home and my phone lan,
(03:02):
is that Louie?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Okay, now, okay, I don't want to talk over the funk.
I think we should meet.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
What I gotta say, Steve, You are so persistent.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Oh I am persistent. I will stalk you, I will
annoy you. Get out of my way.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Okay, let's keep it going.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
At the park you diner two thirty. Thanks Louis, you
got it. Louie enters in a T shirt and sandals,
like he's dressed for summer camp. He's got tattoos up
and down his arms. He's not imposing, not tall, doesn't
(03:47):
have a swagger. He's sixty eight, but he is in
good shape. Clearly a workout guy and a picky eater.
Do you have any peanut butter? He beat you piece
le Roy toasting with peanut butter on the side. He
seemed comfortable, but he was cagey. Let me explain something
to you. You have no idea.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You don't know anything yet, buddy.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I mean I gotta say.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
If there's one thing that's pretty clear here is that
he's not saying he's not gonna talk.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
I'm with you on that, but Louis is definitely not
jumping in. Let's talk and let's meet again. Let's talk
and let's meet again. And so begins a series of
tests and.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
What the ves as you did?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Our next meeting is at Louie's favorite Russian math house,
where he beats me with eight news. It takes the
toxins out of your body.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
It's like a third kidney.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I'm lying on a bench in the song by the way,
I hate song as they are so hot. But Louis,
he tells me he loves this place.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
It's like a religious study. They go in, they shitch,
they sweating.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
All right.
Speaker 7 (05:07):
So at this point are you clear how far are
you gonna go with this thing with this guy?
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Oh, my friend, I am willing to go to the end,
whatever it takes. And then Louis insists I plunge into
the ocean off Coney Island again and again.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Make sure your bathing should come come off.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Well I did it last time. Yeah, it did, certainly did.
The water is now winter cold, and by the way
I hate freezing water. But Louis, he's past president of
the Polar Bear Club and so he insists it's healthy.
I take the plunge, all right, Louis, what is it
(05:54):
you love about this crazy sport? And then after all
the hazing, Louie issue is a verdict. He went in
the ice bed, he went in the ocean with me
and pass the test, right, that's the test. So we
(06:15):
got Louis Scarcella in the studio ready to talk like
he's never talked before. I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all
a poll you need.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Now.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I'm out of the bottom.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
I'm gonna set you free. I'm Dax Devlin Ross and
I'm Steve Fishman from Orbit Media.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
This is the burden.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
In this episode, the confessions of Louis Scarcella. What connects
these cases? A lot of them are the same cop.
They are all that stand between us and lawlessness.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
Smoke behind the stone.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
It's absolutely positively not in his construction to frame someone.
He's just not that kind of a person. I really,
really truly want the people to know me. I don't
know if it's.
Speaker 5 (07:26):
Ever going to happen.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You gotta hold all the time, so start me off here.
(07:54):
You know we're doing audio. Yeah, describe what do you
look like today? I have to describe what I look like.
That's very hard for a person to do, but I will.
I will.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm I'm.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Male, white Caucasian.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
I don't know what the proper terrim is today, but
I'm white Italian.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Of course.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I have about
twenty two tattoos. I'm in fairly decent shape for sixty
eight year old man, and according to the New York Post,
my hair is thinning. And out of all the things
they said about me that hurt me, the most.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
One thing I will say. After I began talking to
Louis regularly, it became clear that one of the reasons
he was engaging with us he felt isolated. His own
community had shunned him. He couldn't even get a job
at the local pool. The reason given bad publicity. I
(09:04):
was a highly decorated detective. They say I had three
rooms full.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Of metal citations, plaques. I made three trips to the
Pound and State linemand burned everything.
Speaker 5 (09:22):
I want no part of it.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
I felt so separated, so separated from the police department,
so separated from the DA's office.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
But let's start at the beginning. Louis grew up in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn,
an Italian neighborhood.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Italians don't move from each other. We stayed together. My
grandmother was at fourteen on one sixty six Street. I
was at fourteen fifteen sixty sixth Street. My father's mother
and sisters were at fourteen forty seven sixty six Street.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Street was the Catholic school in the Catholic Church. Everybody
in the neighborhood was Catholic. Louis was an altar boy. Still,
the nuns at school beat him regularly because he couldn't
do math. His family didn't have much in the way
of means. Four people lived in a one bedroom apartment.
Despite it all, Louis has really good memories of childhood.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Getting up at six o'clock on Sunday morning, listening to
the meatballs hit the oil and garlic.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
I could hear it, I could hear him sissling, and
I could smell it.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
I used to get up and I would walk up
up the block, serve mass and then I would run
down the block and my grandmother would look out the
window and in an aluminum foil should have two meat balls,
and I used to catch them and I used to
eat one here and one going upstairs.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
In Louis community, it could seem like there were just
two paths in life. Worked for the government or joined
the mob. Louie's family members did. Both his father and
his brother were cops. And then there was Uncle Nicky,
known to most as Nicky Black. Let's just say Nicky
(11:21):
led an action packed life. It was not unheard of
for bullets to come crashing through his car windshield. One time.
Louis was even in the car with him. Sold were
you when you were in the car with Nicky?
Speaker 5 (11:35):
Black?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Shots came to me right right right.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
I was probably about probably about eleven years old.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Okay, so what's that like for you? As shots coming
through the windshield was fucking unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
I guess I was scared. I really didn't know what
was happening, but I knew what was happening. It was
like surreal. And he was really calm. He was really
really calm.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I mean, you must have thought your uncle was a
little unusual to him. Bullets come through the window, Nicky
was did your mom explained it to your father?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
They didn't have to. They didn't have to explain anything
to me.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
I knew it was organized.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Crist Yeah, I mean, come on, yeah, I would be
lying if I told you no.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
But mob ties they didn't change Louie's feelings for his uncle.
Louie had a deep sense of right and wrong, and
he admired his dad the cop. But Louie he adored
his uncle, Nicki the criminal.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
Nicky was one of the most honorable men I ever
met in my life, and he played a crazy part
in my life, a big part in my life. And
think about them all the time.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Louis needed money to register for Little League, so Nicki
gave him his first job. Louie's father was quiet, Nicki,
charismatic and tough. He was the type of man that
Louis Scarcela wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
He was the biggest fucking man. I knew he was
a man. He was a man. He was the epitome
what a man was.
Speaker 7 (13:29):
And listening to him, you think he'd want to join
the mob. I mean, as much as he had idolized
his uncle.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Absolutely Listen, whenever I heard Louis talk about his uncle Nikki,
I could hear the excitement in his voice. You could
hear this deep connection he felt. But then it came
time to choose a path, and Louie, I think what
he really wanted was some combination. He wants his dad's badge,
his dad's respectability, and his uncle's swagger.
Speaker 7 (14:00):
As I listened to the way you're describing it, all,
he chooses to become a cop, but he's got this
weird reference for the mob.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
At least a reverence for one particular mobster. Louis joined
the police force in the early seventies, and he excelled.
His record contains twenty five commendations from his first few years.
Soon he was promoted to the anti crime unit. His
assignment stopped crime in progress. At that point, Louis steps
(14:34):
out of uniform and into plane clothes. He grows a
beard and a ponytail, and he bulkes up. Louis could
bench press four hundred and five pounds, and that earned
him a nickname. They called me the Hulk. Yes, Louis
the Hulk.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Louis the Hulk. How did you like that?
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I didn't mind. I had a couple of nicknames, but
that one stuck with me. That one stuck with me
for a long time.
Speaker 7 (15:00):
It sounds like he at least thinks he's living in
a movie.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, and uh, it's an action adventure movie. I mean, listen,
the Hulk is gonna go out and he's gonna fight crime,
and he's gonna do it hand to hand if necessary.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I see him breaking into the building and I chase
him through the vestibule, up the stairs and we're running
through the roof and my partner goes through the roof.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
He was hanging between a on a beam.
Speaker 8 (15:32):
Louis, by the way, keeps going after the bad guy.
I get the guy and he throws a punch at me,
and I hit him with the light right here in
the lip and knock.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Him down, and then the Hulk goes back to rescue
his partner lifts him back onto the roof. One key
thing about Louis Dax he never stops working cop. That's
his idea identity, not his job. He feels like he's
got a mission. He's got a mission to do justice,
(16:07):
even if it isn't exactly by the book. Like there's
this one time he spots a guy hit another guy
and herp starts running. Louie's off duty. He doesn't have
a car. I run across the street. There's a gypsy
cap Give me a fucking car. I'm a cop, get out.
I need your fucking car.
Speaker 8 (16:25):
Give me the call.
Speaker 7 (16:27):
So if I'm in the movie version of this, I
imagine the guy gives up the car.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yes he does, and I'm weaving in and out of traffic,
and Louis goes on a high speed chase through the
streets of Brooklyn. I mean like sixty miles an hour.
Speaker 7 (16:49):
All right, Steve, I've lived in Brooklyn. I know these
exact streets. There's only one way to describe what we're
listening to. It's out of control behavior, Dax.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I hear what you're saying. But listen, this was a
different time. Crime was rampant. Citizens, voters were afraid, and
they are telling politicians every day that it's the city
that's out of control New York City.
Speaker 7 (17:19):
So what you're telling me, I said, Louis Garcelo was
a man of his times.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
A man four the times. I'm trying to tell you
that Louis Scarcela was just what the citizens ordered up.
It's just what the city believed it needed. That's after
the break.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
There was a stick up today by a small gang
of bandits or pistol whipped a teenager and shot their
guns into the air.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
But what makes this so unusual?
Speaker 4 (18:08):
It all happened on a city bus.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Louise heyday with New York in the eighties and nineties.
People who didn't live there, they actually can't believe what
it was like.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
I lived there.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I lived in a fifth floor walk up apartment that
was burglarized five times, five times in just a few years.
There was constant danger. There was always some sense of
threat in the air, and we didn't feel like there
was protection or refuge. We didn't feel like there were
guardrails out there.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
A four year old Ron's girl could not escape danger
even in her own bedroom.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
She was shocked.
Speaker 6 (18:47):
Is it proof that we're facing a situation unlike anything
we've ever had before? Well, I've never had a year, Jim,
When there's going to be two thousand murders.
Speaker 7 (18:55):
Nineteen ninety was the deadliest year on record, more than
twenty two hundred murders. For context, that's about five times
more murders than New York City had in twenty twenty two.
And back in Louis's day, Brooklyn in his territory it
had more than any other borough.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
I would leave work at night and hear the shots
of my next homicide the next morning.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
The conversation dominating the city back then was this, something
needs to be done. Nobody knew what to do, but
something's got to be done.
Speaker 7 (19:33):
Inter Mayor David Dinkins, new York City's first black mayor.
He comes into office in nineteen ninety and is immediately
under tremendous pressure to fix a broken city.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
In the fight against drugs and the crime they cause.
I an't prepared to do anything to take back our
streets by night as well as by day. You know,
there's this famous headline in the New York Post, Dave
do something and so Dave. That's Mayor David Dinkins response options.
Speaker 6 (20:03):
David Dinkins announced he will hire more than a thousand
city cops so they'll be on the job.
Speaker 7 (20:08):
It's important to note that Mayor Dinkins started his term
as a reformer. Social programs were what he was all about,
what he was advancing, But almost overnight everything turned and
he put his faith in the cops.
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Among those in our police department, they are all that
stand between us and lawlessness.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So you have to remember that the cops are seen
almost like anointed, as saviors of the city.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And let me guess who embrace that role more than
anybody else.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
I felt like I am the protector of these people.
I am the guardian that they need, and I'm going
to do the job, and I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
It and get the fuck out of my way. Get
the fuck out of my way. And so in a
city in trouble, Louis Garsella was cast as a hero,
and back then, a hero had plenty to do. I
caught thirty six murders in one year. Some guys today
never do that in the career. My father was a
(21:12):
homicide detective in Manhattan South. He didn't catch thirty six
and ten years. It's the early nineteen nineties and Louis
Garcella is an ace detective. He's got movie star good looks,
He's got his uncle swagger. He smokes a cigar everywhere
he goes. He upgrades his wardrobe, coats and ties. Now
(21:33):
he always looks immaculate.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Some people said I come straight out of central casting,
that I was dressed for the part like I had
a cigar, and I walked a little bit like my
shit didn't stink.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Then one more thing. He was having the time of
his life.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Oh absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I used to turn to my partners and say, they
give us a shield, they give us a gun, and
they give us a car. They'd say, go out and
look a beer, guys, and then.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
They pay us for it.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
They paid us. I had the best job in the world.
I loved it.
Speaker 7 (22:16):
Soon Louis was promoted to Brooklyn North Homicide.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
There were so many homicides in Brooklyn at that time
that the city formed an elite detective squad whose only
job was to arrest murderers. Back then, the South crimes,
Louis didn't rely on fingerprints or forensics or DNA, none
of those was widespread. Louis Garcela relied on another tool,
(22:43):
his instincts, his ability to read people, his street smarts.
Louis says that on the job, his instincts were never wrong.
It's a six or seventh sense that you get.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I know people. In fact, there were a number of
times on the job where everybody said no and I
said yes, And believe it or not, it came back
around and I was right now.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Blowing my own hornets. Just fact, my instincts will give me.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
A very good route to an individual and a very
good route to the District Attorney's office to arrest an individual.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
I mean, one thing is for sure I can say
this about him, is he's not the humble type.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Louis developed a reputation that kind of backed that up.
He became known as the closer. He was the guy
who could crack the hardest cases, the guy who could
get the confession that no other detective could get.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
The only thing I did good in my life, and
it certainly wasn't that arithmetic was eliciting information from people
who were reluctant to give it.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
That's in a minute.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Let's talk about this gift and how it shows up
in Louie's ability to do the one thing that he
becomes most famous for, getting confessions.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
One point here, it's not just that Louie is bragging
about getting confessions. I talked to a bunch of cops
who actually believe Louie had a gift. There was his
boss at Brooklyn North Homicide who claimed he was the
best at getting witnesses to talk. Another detective swore he
witnessed a young suspect behind bars flagged Louie down. He
(24:58):
only wanted to fest to Louie, to no one else.
Speaker 7 (25:03):
And it was his reputation for getting confessions that got
him on the Doctor Phil Show.
Speaker 6 (25:08):
No one knows the art of getting confessions better than
twenty nine year better in New York City Homicide Detective.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
This Doctor Phil appearance is going to get Louis in
a lot of trouble later. But that day under the spotlight,
Louis lays it all out the world. According to Louis scarsella.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Are their rules when it comes to homicides? No, no,
there are no. I will do whatever I have to
do within the law to get a confession or to
get someone to cooperate with me.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I lied to him. I will use deception.
Speaker 6 (25:40):
The bad guys don't play by the rules when they
kill moms, shoot them in the head, groom, the lives
of their family. I don't play by the rules.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Louis didn't play by the rules. He said that twice.
Though to be fair, he also specifies that he do
whatever it takes within the law.
Speaker 7 (25:55):
See, I don't know if I buy that. To me,
it sounds like he's perfectly willing to been the law
to suit his needs.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
But you know, cops are allowed to use deception, they
are allowed to lie. It's surprising. It surprised me, but
the Supreme Court says it's fair practice. And Louis he
was an able practitioner.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Now boarding American Eagle flight for Syracuse. Okay, you get
up boarding.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Pissed.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Louis and his partner are transporting a suspect from Syracuse,
New York to Brooklyn.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
We get on the plane, take off, going up to this.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
End the plane, it's air pocket. So what are you experiencing?
The plane's going like you know, it's you know, I
don't down bound. Yeah, I was scared.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
I was scared.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
The suspect is shackled in the plane seat and Louie
has arranged for the flight attendant to do him a
little favor.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I said, just come on and whisper in my ear.
You could say anything you want. Annie, just whisper in
my ear for about five or six seconds, and she did.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Louis turns to his suspect in the seat next to him.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
I gotta take your shackles off because there may be trouble.
We may go down, and you gotta swim.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
And he said swim.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
And I said, well, this is it, And according to Louis,
he confessed.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
He confessed. I believe I took his statement on a
cocktail napkin.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And the code to that story is classic, Louie. You
don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's
a great story. Louis claims he and his partner and
the quote unquote bad guy go to the airport bar
and they all have shots women.
Speaker 7 (27:58):
Even the suspect gets to drink. I don't know about you,
but I don't know exactly what he's celebrating.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I have two scotches.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
My partner has two scotches, and he has a scotch.
Speaker 5 (28:10):
The bad guy.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Louis, Yes, sir, So you tell this guy he's gonna die.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
I didn't say that. I said it's a possibility that
there's trouble and the plane's going to go down.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And I have to give you a chance to save
your life. Why the fuck does he confess at that
point he's gonna he can die with the secret?
Speaker 3 (28:29):
Well, he he he. I guess it was the fear
of God and and and cleansing his soul because he
told me and and and he told the DA and
he went on camera. Well, yeah, I believe everybody wants
to confess. It was just another hunch and it worked.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I want to tell you about another kid that Louie investigated.
This one is from earlier in his career, and this
time his instincts didn't come through. He couldn't get the confession,
could not make the arrest. It was my first homicide
in the six to sixth Priescinct. John Aretico was shot
(29:21):
four times in the chest with teflon colored bullets. He
died at the scene, and he was in four inches
of snow. Louis Is a message came in over the switchboard.
I look at the message and if I could have
gave birth at that time, I would have. It said
(29:43):
Nick Grancio killed John Aretico. NICKI my uncle.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
That's his beloved uncle, Nicki, the mobster, the one who
he calls the most honorable man he's ever met, even
to this day.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Command that said, Louis, you got to run with it.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
So you are assigned to investigate my uncle Nicki Black.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I'm interviewing my uncle as a suspect in.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
This murder at his house. Yeah, what does he say
to you?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
He said the kid was not a good kid. Okay,
The deceased was not a good kid.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Did you come to the point where you have to say,
h uncle, Nikki, did you kill this guy? Quite possibly?
Speaker 3 (30:30):
I don't, you know, I don't remember. Maybe I don't
want to remember.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
I don't remember that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I really don't. I don't remember that.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
I was prepared.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
To go as far as I could go with the case,
and if Nicki killed him, I had to lock him up.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
And I don't think Nikki would have a problem with that.
NICKI did kill him. The FBI proved it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
I didn't prove it, but that's what they proved.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
The FBI didn't actually prove it, but an informant told
them that Nicky was responsible and Louis he did seem
to believe his uncle was the murderer. The motive.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
Was that he turned Nicky's.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Thought onto drugs. This is aretico aritata guy.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
I was never able to prove that, but that was
the scenario we were getting.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
The NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau looked into the case after
a complaint. Had a nephew investigating his uncle done an
honest job. And here I was a new detective and
I'm under this investigation and I come out of it
smelling like a RAS.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Actually it's not that straightforward. We have a copy of
the internal affairs report, and to call it an investigation
is a bit of a stretch. The main witness interviewed
was none other than Louie for about ten minutes. Now,
it's true there were no charges filed, and his supervisors
did know he was investigating his uncle. But it seems
(32:16):
pretty clear that Louie fudged some of the details. I mean,
he said he didn't know Nicki was an organized crime
come on, and then he said he only talked to
Nicki because he was well known in the neighborhood and
that uncle Nicki was never a suspect. But it's Louie
who said Nicki was a suspect in the first place.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Nicki wasn't arrested, No one was. I don't think Louie
was entirely unhappy about that. In truth, Louie was sympathetic
to his uncle.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
We had a phrase, unfortunately enough, public service murder.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
This fit the criteria por John Iretko public service murder.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Uh. I'm not gonna disrespect his family. I'm not gonna
disrespect him. But regard to Nicky Black, I'm sure he
had that.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Feeling.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I'm sure he thinks he deserves to die. I'm sure
he thinks he deserves.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
To die, and so does Louis. One day we're at
a diner. Turns out it was Uncle Nicky's favorite diner
where he and Louie used to eat off it.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Let me ask you a question, God forbid, you had
a daughter and and P. D.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Johnson hooked her up on drugs? Bag would you kill him?
I really want to quit. When you're not in my blood,
I said, I would really want to kill him, but
it's not in my blood.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I believe I would have did this. I would have
probably did the same thing, taken care of the guy
and just turned myself in.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Maybe Uncle Nikki did the same thing.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Well except for that whole turn himself in part.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
You see, he's very hard to me to call my
uncle a murder, right, well.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
You know he really is.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
What Ah, I just don't like the all right, he
was a murder?
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Does that make it happen? And it's just hard to
do it. I don't like, but he was.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 7 (34:40):
I don't expect Louis to stop loving his uncle because
he committed Hanus crimes. I even understand that he can
find honor in his uncle, a murderer, But when it
comes to young black men like Shabaka Shakur and Derek Hamilton,
the guys we met last episode, guys who were accused
of the same crimes as his uncle. Can Louis see
honor in them? Or are these just young black men
(35:03):
always going to be dismissed as quote unquote bad guys.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Next time on The Burden, Shabaka and Derek and a
band of convicted murderers form a law firm in prison. Together,
they take aim at one detective.
Speaker 4 (35:28):
It really wasn't until me and Derek had the conversation
and Derek said, yeah, he's a cop in my case too,
And that's when it hit me. We got enough cases
to be able to expose Grsela as a crooked cop.
That's the only way we're going to win.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
I'm the sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Now, I'm out of the bottle.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by
Steve Fishman and That's Me. It's hosted and reported by
Steve Fishman and Dax Devlyn Ross. Story editor is Dan Bobkoff.
Our senior producer is Simon Rentner. Our producer is Sanam Skelly.
Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Our
(36:17):
production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design by
Mumbo Media. Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens, Evan Williams
and me Steve Fishman. Additional production help from Josie Holtzman,
Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner, Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel,
Priscilla Alabi, Saxon Baird, Katie Simon, and Katie Spranger. We
(36:40):
give special thanks to Ellen Horn, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe,
Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey, Lyla Robinson, Mark Smerling and Zack
Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to Marcy Wiseman. Special thanks
to our agents Ben Davis and Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook
provided our legal advice. She's from MKSR LP. And a
(37:04):
very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive
producers and the person who made this podcast possible. We
are honored to feature the song black Lightning. From the
bel Rays as our theme music. The Burden is a
production of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company.
Speaker 5 (37:20):
Number one.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be
available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All
episodes will be available early and ad free, along with
exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse,
our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety
(37:59):
nine a month.
Hosts And Creators
Dax-Devlon Ross
Steve Fishman
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