Kirk Herbstreit

Carlos talks to Emmy Award winning ESPN Analyst Kirk Herbstreit about his time at Ohio State, his new book “Out of the Pocket: Football, Fatherhood and College GameDay Saturdays” and his career with ESPN.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Kirk curb Street was born in Ohio and was the
star quarterback at his high school. He won the Ohio
Gatorade Player of the Year award and went on to
play college football at the Ohio State. After his college
football career, he joined ESPN's College Game Date and has
one numerous Emmy Awards as an analyst. On this episode
of The Carlos Watson Show podcast, Kirk curb Street reflects

(00:24):
on his time at Ohio State, his new book Out
of the Pocket, football Fatherhood and College Game Day Saturdays,
and his career with ESPN. Hey, Kirk, Yeah, Hey, how
are you good? Good? Happy Monday to you. Same to you. Hey.

(00:45):
Let's get right into it, because you're looking at a
college football nut. You're looking at Ohio State Buckeye fan.
We could go Keith Buyers, we could go Supper Johnson,
we could go all the way back. All that good
Cedric Anderson, that's the Cedric Anders send, Gary Williams, all
those guy. Oh Man, oh Man, oh Man. I I

(01:07):
I was born in Cleveland. I was born in University Hospital.
So I know you're you're kind of a Cleveland and
fictionado too. And my dad showed me they used to
have this thing called Alcoa Presents. And when I was four,
I was walking by the TV and I heard they
said they called him Superman, and if you're four, you look,
and they showed Jim Brown carrying all eleven of the

(01:28):
New York Giants, including Sam Huff, into the end zone.
My dad saw me watching. Apparently I dropped everything I
had in my hand, and he said, you were born
in the same place that Superman played. I was a
Cleveland Browns fan from that point onwards, all the whole,
the whole good thing. So, Eddie House, You're you're coming
to a family home here on this show. You're coming

(01:49):
to the family home, all right. I gotta ask you
right away because I'm such a nut in your mind.
Who's on the Mount Rushmore of greatest college football players
of all time? And this is purely a Kirk herb
Street addition. I don't care what anyone else says. I
don't care what other people say. This is like the
John Madden thing, except it's Herbie style. Yeah, who's on
your Mount Rushmore? Oh my gosh, um, Michael Vick. Yeah,

(02:17):
this is strictly college football. Yeah, this strictly college woe
and that's a nice one. You start out of the
gate with Michael Vick. Michael Vick in college, I think
people forget how how unique he was. Reggie bush Um
another one for me, that just I've never seen a
player in college who was his electrifying um as as

(02:37):
Reggie bush Uh. Those two. Archie Griffin would have to
be on there because you know he's the only two
time Heisman Trophy winner UM and and did things again
just kind of ahead of his time what he was
able to do um And if I had to pick
one defensive player, how about Lawrence Taylor when he was

(02:59):
at North Carolina nina UM just a game record, you know,
people remember him as a New York Giant of course,
and how many things that he was able to do
in the NFL, but in college football he was. He
was pretty dynamic him him or Hugh Green. You know,
you can pick one of the Green is a nice one,
Yeah Green, that's a nice call, you Green? It pit?

(03:20):
Yeah with with was he was Dan Marino with him
at the time or was I think that maybe Overlapp
maybe a year or two. And you also had Tony
Dorset that was I mean Pitt Pitt back in the
in the late seventies early eighties, they were they were
a different level. Yeah, there was a guy who I
don't want to say, but he was really special, Charles White.

(03:42):
I don't want to say it because you know, he
gashed us at Ohio State. But that little fella, because
he wasn't a big guy. He it's like they couldn't
tackle him for the life of him. Yeah, number twelve
to run. He was so slippery, just kind of glided
through the hall. For the life of us. They they

(04:02):
could not. All right, Now, here's the question. When we
talk about Charles White, when we talk about Reggie Bush,
when we talk about several of these others, they didn't
become big NFL stars. Didn't mean that they were. Archie
Griffin didn't become big NFL stars. What do you know
about that? Why does some of the best players we've
ever seen in college, who are playing against all the

(04:22):
same guys who they're going to see at the next
level not not become great pros? I don't you know,
that's a great question. I mean, there was a run
there for the Heisman Trophy. Um, it was almost like
anybody who won the Heisman Trophy, they would they would
have almost a Heisman Jinks and and not go into
the NFL and and become superstar players. I don't, I
don't really don't know the reason why. I can tell

(04:44):
you this. The NFL game and the college game for
decades was such contrasting styles. Now you can you can
win and be effective as a college player, but the
same game was playing was not the same game on
a Sunday. And so you know, Archie Griffin, I I
still mystified how he was so darned good in college

(05:08):
nobody could tackle him in college and then he goes
up into the NFL and didn't quite you know, he
had a decent career, but not the career we would
all thought of. And I think over the last five
or eight years, we're starting to see that trend kind
of change. And I think the reason is the game
is becoming more and more similar. What you see on

(05:28):
Saturday is transitioning now to what we see on Sunday
and UH, and maybe that's helping try to the NFL
UH administrators and executives figure out that guy is gonna
work in our game. Whereas before, you know, I don't
think there was necessarily a correlation to always being a
superstar in the college game that that you know they're

(05:50):
gonna make it on Sunday. There's some guys that were
just okay in college and for whatever reason, they get
in the NFL poom they take off. You know, So
that that that's changing a bit now, but there's no
doubt that that was going on, like I said, for decades. Well,
do you think that you have seen a college team
that could have beaten an NFL team? Have you ever seen?

(06:11):
I know, everyone like every day is it possible? Every
year I watch Alabama, I'm like, and these guys, you know,
because what what what? What? I'm always reminded when you
get into this discussion with NFL players, is okay, wait
a second Alabama has which is a lot, but they

(06:31):
have at a twenty two starters. Let's say they have
twelve that are gonna be in the NFL, maybe maybe fourteen,
which is a ton in the NFL. They're all NFL players,
even the worst team in the NFL, they're all still
very talented players. So you know, in Alabama's case, you know,

(06:51):
because they're so physical at the line of scrimmage, um,
they have guys that immediately jump right into the NFL
and become superstars. So sometimes I often wonder if Nick
Saban's figured out the formula to to to win UH
at the highest level even with those college players. Interesting
because he Nick Saban, arguably the greatest coach at least

(07:12):
in modern times in college football, struggled a little bit
as a pro coach. Yeah, he was around five hundred.
I mean they were chasing playoffs, UH, wild card bursts
when he was there with Miami. And if he probably
would have stayed there longer and built his culture in
the NFL, I think he would have been successful. I
think he and Bill Belichick right now and have been

(07:35):
the two greatest coaches at any level. I would say
Nick Saban's the greatest college coach to ever live. I mean,
there's been some great ones over the years, but I
think what coach Staben's doing and continues to do UH
is just at a different level of excellence. But you know,
I'm I think he you know, he was there for
I can't remember if it was a year, maybe two.
It wasn't it wasn't terrible, it wasn't a disaster. UH.

(07:58):
And if given enough time, I think he would have
he would have built a winning program for sure, Kirk,
take me back because you grew up in Ohio? Where
was home originally? Yeah, I grew up in the Dayton
Era and um parents divorced when I was about eight,
and so I moved around. I went to eight different
schools in nine years, all in southwest Ohio, so Dayton, Cincinnati,

(08:20):
primarily in those areas until I went eventually I went
to Ohio State. You know, once I once I selected
a school and and and why was that? Why were
you bouncing around as much? Well, you know, a big
part of my book is talking about just what we
all go through, right, different different trials and tribulations. Not
I guess we don't all go through, but but in
my case, I went through some just you know, dysfunctional

(08:44):
family stuff. Parents got divorced, my mom remarried UM and
was married for a few years. So I had stepdad,
step brother, step sister, step a lot of step different
step grandparents. And then my dad remarried and had a
step brother over that side and a step mom. I
was kind of bouncing back a little bit back and forth.

(09:06):
My dad was always my hero, and he was never
really in my life as much as I wanted him
to be. And some people go through that they have
resentment and anger when they go through divorce. As a kid,
I had more of kind of an emptiness, UM. And
I was a really shy, painfully shy, and introverted kid,
and so I just kind of held onto all that.
I didn't really talk about a lot of that with

(09:29):
with people. My outlet was sports, thankfully, UM, whether it
was watching sports, participating in sports, my friends, my friends families,
that's kind of where I That was my escape to
where I wanted to go. But uh yeah, I mean
that that was kind of my reality. And then after
going through all that, my parents decided to move in
together in the same house as friends, um, and did

(09:53):
that my whole high school. They said, you've been to
hell and back, We've apologized, you're gonna go to high school.
We're gonna live in this house. And I stayed in
the same house my whole high school career, and most
of my friends thought my parents were married, even though
they were living in separate bedrooms and and just kind
of just trying to pretend we had a normal family situation.

(10:16):
But I finished my my last four years at a
school in Dayton called Centerville High School. But yeah, bounced
around quite a bit, lived in a lot of different areas,
and um just kind of endured, you know the best
I could. Well, what does that teach you when you
look back now as a fifty year old man, you
look back on that, and I'm not searching for any
particular lesson, but I'm just You've been lucky enough to

(10:38):
live the life you've you've lived, and so you can
gather from different things. What do you what do you
think when you now look back on those years and
your parents decision to come back together and gratitude, I
mean gratitude, as much as that sounds crazy, just humble,
incredibly humble, grounded person. I didn't come from a lot,
you know. I I my first job. I I when

(11:01):
I was I got out of school with Ohio State
and I had I was a business major and I
had you know the conventional way of business opportunities and
pharmaceutical sales. And they had three different interviews and made
me an offer. It was very lucrative. It was maybe
with bonuses up to six figures, and I was like wow,
And then I took a radio job instead. You know,

(11:21):
I had to make a choice. One or the other.
And I took twelve thousand dollar starting job to do
something that I loved. You know, I don't know if
you can relate to that getting into your in your business,
but I wasn't chasing money because I never had it.
I was chasing passion. And I think, as I, you know,
the next thing, you know, after I got into it
and doors started to open. And I've been at college
game Day and ESPN and working on a national level

(11:42):
for twenty six years. But I still look at myself
as that kid that kind of just scratching around, trying
to be a hard worker and trying to gain respect
from people. So I'm a pleaser by nature. I'm not
one to ever arrive. I think if I ever arrive,
I'll probably be retired and fishing somewhere in Montana or

(12:02):
just kind of laying low somewhere with my dogs. But
I I just pretty simple person, pretty humble beginnings. And
and we'll always look in the mirror and see that guy,
that kid. What was high school like for you? Because

(12:32):
on one hand, you're the star quarterback uh In Ohio football,
crazy Ohio basketball baseball player, but you also say you're
painfully shy. Are you still painfully shy at that point?
Or what's life like for for Kirk? If I'm with
him in you know how you know how shy guys are.
If I'm with my boys, then I'm I'm a different guy.

(12:54):
I'm comfortable. I'm I'm cracking around, I'm messing around. You know,
guys are busting on me, I'm busted on them. That
was me with my boys. Uh. If I were, you know,
with people, I didn't know. You know, even though I
was being recruited by every school in the country and
I'm supposed to be this guy that's Mr. You know,
popular guy, I just was never comfortable in that role.

(13:16):
So I was very very introverted. Um just you know,
I just didn't like a lot of attention. So I
was like two different personalities. If I were in a
in a comfortable environment, I was outgoing and fun. And
if I weren't, then I was just super uncomfortable, super
almost like social anxiety. UM just not my thing. And

(13:37):
it's to this day that's still how I am. I mean,
I I do a job that's out in the public eye,
and I've learned to buy into you know, you have
to be a certain way, um to do your job.
But when a camera's off or you know, I'm I'm
I'm not doing my job. I'm like I've mentioned, I
have three Golden Retrievers. I've always had dogs, like I

(13:59):
just like to take walks with my dogs. I like
to be with my kids. My wife just kind of
live a very I don't know, just low key lifestyle. Um.
But yeah, in high school, I was, I was, I
was two different people. I was I was depending on
who I was hanging out with dictated how I how
I acted. All right, let me ask you a little
bit of a heretical question here. What would have happened

(14:21):
if the Gatorade player high school player of the Year
in football in Ohio, son of Ohio State captain hadn't
gone to Ohio State. What would have happened to your
pro football career, to your college and potentially pro football
career if you hadn't gone to Ohio State. Well, if
I didn't get a scholarship to go to Ohio State, Uh,
if I didn't get a scholarship to go anywhere, I

(14:42):
would probably either join the Marines or join the army.
We we didn't have money to pay for college my
sister paid off student loans, so she was in her forties,
and I wasn't a motivated student at eighteen. I was
a motivated I did what I needed to do academically.
I wish I would go back and attack it, you know,
with a different kind of approach than I did. But

(15:02):
back then, if I'm being candid, I was doing what
I needed to do to be eligible and to get
my grades. And I was I was a sports geek. Um.
But if I didn't have UH football and a scholarship
to fall back on, I definitely would have probably skipped
college and and just gone to the Marines um just
which would have been an interesting way of going about

(15:24):
life and in a very different way than than what
that door opened. You know, when I get that full
scholarship to Ohio State, and I went there thinking I'd
go to the NFL, and when I went as a
five star, could have gone to any school in the
country as a quarterback, and I chose Ohio State mainly
because my dad played there and was a captain. And
I grew up dreaming of playing for the Buckeyes and
now it's reality, and I fell flat on my face.

(15:47):
I talked about that a lot in the book. I
was an option quarterback in high school and very good
at that, but I committed to a school that was
not option. They they were a seven step drop kind
of more of a West Coast offense, and it just
didn't fit my skill set. And so for three years
my wheels were spinning. I was frustrated, I was cynical,
I was ready to quit, feeling sorry for myself, always down,

(16:11):
just just I mean, when you see your world crumble,
it's hard to live that because you had such big
dreams and it's gone. And I was a bust and
I was whatever you want to say, And I hit
that again, a fork in the road on do I
just quit and go play baseball or just give it
up completely, or do I endure and keep keep kind
of pounding the pavement. And my dad, who was you know,

(16:34):
in and out but there for me at that time,
was like, you know, hey, to keep going and get
through another spring and kind of see where you are,
which I did, and I'm thankful that I did. I
ended up starting, you know, last year and a half
or so, and captain my senior year and voted by
my teammates and most inspirational player, which I appreciated, and
most valuable player. So boy, I learned some valuable lessons

(16:57):
throughout that whole process, and and about uh, perseverance and
and things not always going on your schedule or what
you want when you want it, and uh and sometimes
that's okay, you know, it's it's really really really hard
to go through that, but it taught me and it's
helped me throughout my life about like I said, work
ethic and and uh and and just not giving up

(17:20):
and always always grinding, always grinding, and um, that's kind
of how I built my broadcasting career from the lessons
I learned going through that. Did you know when did
you know? You went into college hoping to make the NFL.
At what point did you say to yourself, despite the
fact that I'm one of the best programs in the country,
despite the fact that I'm a starter, despite the fact

(17:40):
that I'm throwing for thousands of yards and throwing for
plenty of touchdowns, I'm probably not going to get a
chance to play on Sundays. When did you realize that? Well?
I I had some free agent opportunities when I got
done playing, was not drafted, but there are a couple
of teams that reached out to me. It was a
very different time when it came to the draft to
the college game, but I had some opportunities. I'll be honest,

(18:02):
after everything I'd been through a lot of red tape,
I was I was kind of emotionally spent. I was
very big on not being a college player that couldn't
let go. You know, in that era, there are a
lot of guys would play arena football, they play in
the World League. They just wouldn't be able to let
go of their playing days. And I always looked like
I didn't want to be that guy. If I were

(18:23):
going to be drafted, I go to the NFL. I'm
not gonna be drafted. I'm cutting the cord and I'm
gonna find my next chapter in life, having no idea
what it was. I had no idea what I wanted
to do because I was so focused always on football.
So when I when I realized I wasn't drafted, these
free agent opportunities, I'm not passionately interested in doing those

(18:43):
and chasing those. I gotta go find out what my
next job is, Like, what's my next what's my next step?
And that's when I started to interview with all those
those pharmaceutical companies as a business major, Ohio Stated hooked
me up with a bunch of those and that's when I,
you know, I kind of swallowed my pride and I
was okay, how was at peace with it because of
everything I had been through at Ohio State. UM and

(19:05):
and that was such a I'm talking about I was
an eight year old, at twelve year old going to bed.
It was dreaming, like you probably in Ohio of playing
for the Buckeyes. I mean, I didn't dream of playing
for the Green Bay Packers. I dreamt of playing for
Ohio State like that was the mission. And when I
conquered that mountain finally my senior year, it was almost
like it was just like, you know, I'm good, Like

(19:29):
I've done what I really wanted to do as an athlete,
and now I gotta go find that next thing. And
little did I know when I when I decided to
become a talk show host, making that twelve tho dollar
offer they offered me. Little did I know that two
years later I'd be working at ESPN. I mean, I
it wasn't like I had a goal of maybe one
day I'll work at ESPN or one day I'll be

(19:51):
on ABC working with britt Musburger. It wasn't like that.
It was just, Hey, this door looks let's try this door.
I opened that door and I stepped through. Do that
for a little while, and then oh, here's another door
over here, and I opened that door, and it was
just like, what's behind this door? And and it was
just one thing. I don't know if your career was
like that. It was like one thing led to another,
led to another. The next thing I know, I'm twenty

(20:13):
six years old and I'm sitting on the set of
College Game Day and working on a national TV which
it just this will be my twenty sixth fall uh
this this coming season. What was ESPN like in those days?
Was it already a thing at that point or was
it still evolving? It was a thing, but it wasn't
There weren't a lot of jobs. There was just ESPN.

(20:35):
There wasn't ESPN two or ESPN You or all these
different networks. It was just ESPN. So there weren't a
lot of opportunities. But ESPN was definitely a thing. Um,
it was a destination for a lot of sports viewers.
Like that's that's where you went to watch highlights, that's
where you went to find out anything in sports if

(20:57):
you were a sports fan. Um so I I was
a consumer myself. But they didn't have a lot of
games on. They didn't have a lot of of content
as far as college football. They had College Game Day
on Saturday. But the jobs, it wasn't like there was
a laundry list of opportunities. There was one or two

(21:19):
opportunities and those were all taken. So I didn't it
didn't even occur to me to try to get to ESPN.
In fact, when when the opening uh happened, Craig James,
who was a broadcaster, left Game Day and he went
to CBS for a bigger opportunity. And I was twenty five,
and they called me and said, hey, we're gonna bring

(21:40):
you in for this audition. Literally said to me, you're
not going to get the job, but it'd be really
good for you, this young in your career to just
go through the experience. So that was what they told
me coming in, And so I went in and they
brought Lead Corso and Chris Fowler in for the audition,
and I was terrified to go through had audition process.

(22:01):
Is such a young guy and to be sitting next
to Lead Corso and Chris Fowler and I sweated my
way through that that audition thought I did terribly, shook
their hands and said you know, thanks, and got into
a car and flew back home and didn't hear anything
for a month or two and just assumed they had
forgotten about me. And then I end up getting a

(22:22):
call from my agent and saying, hey, they're gonna hire
you on on college game day. And I was like,
what I couldn't I was, I was number one. They
told me I wasn't gonna get it number two. I
didn't feel like I did as well as I could have,
so I just assumed it was a slam dunk. I
didn't get it. And then they called me, or they
called my agent. He called me and said you got it?
So um that was That was a life changing phone

(22:44):
call to receive. Wow, when you look back, if you
were whispering to your younger self, maybe these great books
that say what they don't teach you at Harvard Business School,
what's the one or two really smart things in retrospect
you've done in this life or in your career that
you would whisper and share with other young people that
may not be easily apparent just through kind of normal

(23:06):
motivational talks and things. But you're like, you know what,
for whatever reason, here's an instance where I did X
and it really worked out. And that's not what they
necessarily would tell you. But I'm glad I did it
because it made a difference in kind of how my
life or how my career has played out. What's the
first thing is? And I touched on a little bit,
but the first thing is you got to find a passion.

(23:28):
You know, how often do people in America go to
bed on a Sunday night and look forward to the
next week of work? You know, most people that I've
been around, they work, but it's another week of work.
You know. I really didn't want to do that. And
the fact that I was never driven by money ever
allowed me to be very selective, which I didn't know

(23:51):
at the time. You know, as you say retrospect, what
was the key? The key was finding a passion. You've
got the conventional way make some money, get into pharmacy,
critical sales. Maybe for some people that's awesome. There are
people person they love sales, and go get them. That's
what they love. For me, I could have done that,
I guess, But for me, passion is sports. Get to

(24:13):
sit around and take phone calls and have guests on
and talk about baseball and football and basketball, and it's
it's what I do in my downtime and my personal time.
So I think, finding your passion, not worrying about money
and go go go to work, and go enjoy that.
That's that would be the first thing that I learned.
And then the second thing. And I don't know if

(24:34):
I ever truly I was able to define this, but
going back to my sports background, I felt like, like,
if in your business, I'm going to outwork every other
host in this this space. You know, however that whatever
work that is, I'm gonna do it longer and better

(24:55):
than anybody else I'm going to compete against. And then
when I'm on the air, it's gonna become evident that man,
that guy seems really prepared, or that guy seems to
really know what he's talking about. That was my thing.
So I was gonna find I found a passion, and
then I was going to outwork my competition. And I
feel like, if you do those two things. Um, you know,

(25:17):
it doesn't guarantee success, but it sure gives you a
chance to uh to get into a field that you love,
and then when you work as hard as I work
in this field, I love it. I love my job
like you imagine working for ten, twelve, fifteen hours a
day and like enjoying every minute of it. That's that,

(25:38):
to me, is a key to success in life is
finding that and being able to live it. Yeah, you
could imagine even as you say that, you can imagine
someone being much healthier, much happier. You can imagine relationships
being better because you're not talking to someone who is
only under stress or someone who's only trying to distress

(25:59):
or try to forget the day, but someone who actually
enjoyed the day. And that's a whole different energy. So
that's that, that is that is a blessing. I um kirk,
you did something on the air that I really appreciated
last year in the midst of Black Lives Matter. I felt,
at least that you spoke from the heart about what
you were seeing and also importantly what you were feeling.

(26:19):
Tell me a little bit, and I realized, this is
a big conversation you and I could have days and
days and years and years of conversation on it. But
as you have kind of thought about race and race
relations and where we are and maybe where we could go,
what what do you see today? And again I'm not
don't want to put everything on you, but but I
know you were good enough to share on air some
of what you were feeling, and we all went through

(26:42):
the last year together, and I'd be curious to hear what,
if anything you're thinking these days about where we are
on race and race relations and maybe where we could go. Well.
I I am very fortunate to grow up in a
family where I just saw everybody as a friend. Um,
if I hung out with you, it's because I was
drawn to you. I never personally looked at at a

(27:05):
person's race. I looked at more of whether we have
in common as far as our hobby. When I'm talking.
When I was a seven year old, eight year old,
I went to a school that had Asian Americans, black, white,
just everybody was kind of in insane neighborhood. And I
never where I grew up, I was never a thing.
It was never a thing that you were Asian or

(27:28):
you were black, or you're white. It was just we
were kids, and so I that was my introduction to
the world and where I lived. And and then I
went to school, and as I'm bounced around these different schools,
that was pretty similar. There might be one where it
was predominantly white, but most of them were just where
everybody was just kind of hanging out. And so what

(27:50):
I decided was I look at people and what's in
the inside, and if they're kind to people, I'm usually
drawn to that person. Not if you're popular or you're
not popular. If you're just a kind person, that's that.
That was just a person that I would want to
associate with. So that was my background, and I played sports.

(28:10):
When I got to Ohio State. There are probably more
black athletes in our locker room than there were white athletes.
But at Ohio State when I went there, when we
would do a team meal, the white guys would all
eat over here, the black guys would all eat over here. Well,
I I hung out in the dorm rooms a lot
of times with a lot of the black players. We'd
play video games together, we goof on each other, So

(28:34):
a lot of times I would eat with the lot
of the black players, not even really thinking it was
a thing, and I look around once in a while,
I'm like, why this is stupid, Like why why is
it so divided? And I don't think it was done intentionally.
I just think people were gravitating to what they were
comfortable with. And we'd go to a movie theater Ohio

(28:55):
State and it would be the same thing. A lot
of the white guys would over here in a lot
of the black guys were over here, and I has
never really understood that, Thankfully, because of the way I was,
I grew up well. Then by the time I was
a senior and I was a captain, me and Steve Tovar,
who was a middle linebacker for Higher State and a
black player, we were able to kind of set the
tone a little bit more on interaction and hanging out

(29:18):
and all of us being together and all of us
kind of loving on each other. And I'm really proud
of If you go act and look at Ohio State,
you get into the locker room, you would find out
that there was that was kind of a turning point
I think for Ohio State, where it became much more
more of an intermingle, more of a love for one another,
regardless of of whether by the time I was a senior,

(29:40):
if you went to watch us in a movie or dinner,
you would see it would be much more of a
mixed group than white over here and black over here.
And that's something I'm really proud of. And so it
wasn't done out of I don't know, like like I'm
gonna make a statement. It was more done out of love.
It was more done out of let's just all hang together.
So that's just my my way. I've always been well.

(30:02):
Then all this stuff happened, and having, you know, friends
that are white and friends that are black. I called
David Shaw, who's a head coach at Stanford, UM talk
to him the day before we were going to have
this segment on. And I talked to Derek Mason, who
is the head coach at Vanderbilt. Both these coaches are
black head coaches in college football. And I was like, man,

(30:23):
I've never been uncomfortable in twenty five years of talking
about a segment on college game day. I was like,
part of me just as a white man, I don't
even think it's my place to talk right now, Like
I just I can be really honest with these guys.
I was like, I just feel like just I just
want to sit there and listen, and they said, I
understand that, but man, you've got a strong position in

(30:46):
this sport and you should really consider like speaking from
your heart if there's something on your heart, like you
should you should feel comfortable with But all this time
you put into this sport, you should go comfortable and
opening up your heart. But if you don't feel comfortable, man,
don't don't do it. You know, just just feel the moment.
And so I was just you know, listening to them
and and they're just both really really smart, educated guys.

(31:08):
And so I'm being honest with you. I've never not
been able to sleep the night before show, like being
nervous to go on national TV. But I was nervous
for this in one segment. It's a three hour show,
and this is one segment because I was torn, is
it my place to talk or is it not? And
so I just sat there and watched the feature with
Maria Taylor, and she had about eight different players and

(31:31):
they were all kind of going through their own experiences
that they've kind of run into, um, whether it's driving
a car and they get, you know, pulled over because
they have a hoodie on or you know, they get
pulled over the cop immediately like thinks they're a threat
and treat them, you know, like they're they've done something
wrong and they haven't done anything wrong. And it just

(31:53):
started there, like, man, I was watching that. It was
weighing on me because the whole time, I'm thinking, I'm
gonna I'm just gonna take it. I'm gonna go the
safe way. I'm not gonna say what I think. And
as I'm listening to those kids talk, and it was
just it was just bothering me, you know. And I
kept going back to my phone call with David Shawl
the day before, so I can't remember if Maria went

(32:16):
first or Desmond or whoever went first. They started to
talk and then it was my turn to go. And
as I started to talk, I was like, keep it
down the fairway and I said easy, and I started
to talk, and I just found myself being like I'm
gonna you're You're gonna go ahead. And I used the
quote that David shaw gave me and I started to

(32:37):
read that and I just read that and then when
I got done, I just started to just like it
was like all this emotion just kind of came out
of me. And I'm not a talent enough actor to
like fake that or I didn't prepare anything. I just
as you said, I just spoke from the heart, and
I just I think the big thing is regarding that.

(32:58):
And David Shaw to talk to me about this as well,
and basically his comment was until people who aren't impacted
by racism are equally is is aggravated by it as
the people who are affected by racism, nothing's ever going
to change. And and he that was his message to me,
and that's what I started to kind of try to
talk about. And I talked about a locker room. How

(33:21):
you know, we just see scarlet and gray, you know,
you don't, you don't see black and white. We we
see we gotta win this game together, and we're gonna
do whatever it takes. In a locker room and then
a huddle. You're not really worried about this stuff, you know,
you're worried about just winning as a group and whatever
it takes. And I just thought, wouldn't it be great

(33:41):
if the world were a locker room, you know, or
the country were a locker room, And um, I just
hope we can all just just treat each other well.
And you know, it's amazing how the people were appreciative
of what I said. And there were this ten percent
of people that were just so bizarre that you know,
if I'm if I'm guilty of having empathy, I apologize,

(34:04):
you know, or or compassion. You know, how do you
not understand compassion? Or want to do I want to
make it better, you know, want to make want to
make it where everybody just is, everyone's treated the same,
and everybody has the same opportunities, and away we go,
you know, and if you don't want to work hard,

(34:25):
then you go over here and you get left behind.
If you want to work hard, you go over here,
and we all come together and and be proud of
living in this country together and love on each other.
I mean, it's pretty simple to me. I don't know
why it has to be so complex it is. Uh,
it was such a powerful time. And again I think
sports has been a special place, uh for allowing sometimes

(34:51):
the ways we don't even appreciate racial integration and racial connection.
And I actually your guys Stewart Scott, I give him
at of credit because I think that he he opened
up ESPN in some ways and allowed more people to
enjoy it and enjoy it in different ways, and I
think actually even further elevated what was already a wonderful platform.

(35:12):
But I do think that locker rooms, but also watching
shows together, being fans of the same team and realizing
sometimes that you can crossover differences on that And I'm
not trying to minimize real differences, but but but I
do think that sports has a special opportunity. And uh,
it has made me wonder whether we'll see more athletes
run for office, um, because there is a leadership quotient there,

(35:38):
uh that you know that could be valuable in other
in other arenas. Yeah, yeah, it's it's fascinating to me
that we you know, on the on the back end
of all this where we are right now with with
the country and and um, how we are so divided,
you know, And I think, you know, I don't I

(35:58):
don't really follow polite x. I don't really consider myself
like this staunch republican or liberal or anything like that.
But I feel like most of my life the world
has been run more where it's been kind of independent
or kind of more in the middle, and it just
seems like right now everything is like you're over here,

(36:20):
you're over there, you know, and it's and it's just
it's never been like that, And um, I just worry
about about our country. I worry about our kids and
you know, what they're inheriting and what they're watching, what
they're witnessing, because I just I never really felt I
never really felt so divided and so labeled. Everybody just

(36:43):
gets labeled something and you're just automatically in that category.
And that's that's where you are, everybody, and just such
a wrong way to live. So hoping we can get
our bearings back as a country and and have some
great leadership, you know, because we've we've not had that
for for a long time. A kirk, I know I

(37:22):
may lose you in a minutes, so I want to
do some rapid fire before we go. You might if
I hit you with a little bit of rapid fire.
Yeah sure. Um, which are your boys? Is most like you? H?
I four boys? Uh, identical twins or twenty one Jake
and tie of Zach who's just left for college is
eighteen in Ohio state. And I have Chased who's at home,
and I would probably say my youngest Chase is probably

(37:46):
the most like me as far as personality and and
uh and his interest. I would say my youngest nice
and he was playing quarterback at St. Xavier. Is that
the one? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, not a bad deal.
Your favorite movie of all time? Oh my gosh, I
don't have to say Shaw Shank, Shaw Shank, Redemption, Morgan

(38:07):
Freeman that that was a great movie. I was. You know,
I'm a movie guy. I love movies. I just feel
that the uh, the movies now are are very different
than when you and I were kids and you'd go
to the movie and be Mortigan Freeman or it would
be you know, I don't know, Uh, They're just there's
so many great actors back in like the seventies, eighties, nineties,

(38:31):
and now it's it's more just marvel and and just
what is it the the the effects, you know, different
kind of movies. It's just it's it's a different time
right now where you can get some of that magic.
I have to say those on the TV screen, because
I do think that all the magic that you and
I remember from Raiders of the Loss are a lot

(38:51):
of other great movies I think shifted to the TV screen,
And uh, I'm a little bit of a TV junkie,
and I've end up finding lots of good things there.
But you're right, I don't go to the movies or
I don't watch the movies like I did when when
I was coming up and where it felt like there
was always multiple things that I wanted to go see.
If Harrison Ford were in a movie, you're like, you know,

(39:12):
Morgan Freeman, Boom, you know, there are certain guys that
are in a movie you're going you know, and um,
it's those kind of movies are far and few between.
If you could have dinner with anyone, dead or alive,
who would you love to have dinner with? Um? I mean,
I hate I don't want to go down. I don't
know how you feel, but I would say Jesus Jesus Christ.

(39:34):
Probably nice, that would be my first choice. All right.
What would you guys be eating? Do you know? Um?
Probably uh, probably keep it simple, just a nice steak
and mashed potatoes. Love it, love it? Okay, I love it,
love it? And you putting butter on your mouth mashed

(39:54):
potatoes or no, yeah, okay, butter and salt. All right.
Biggest mistake you've ever made, um, I've made so many
of them. I'm trying to pick figure the biggest one
that I made. You know, I've been I've tried really hard,
and I think this is a big thing in life
to learn from all your mistakes. Um. You know the

(40:19):
setbacks that we have, that the the regrets you try
to learn from those. I I we talked a lot
about where I went to school. I went to school
because of that path, that dream that I had to
go to Ohio State. And I'm not saying it's a
regret in any way at all, because I'm glad I
went through what I went through. I just wish I

(40:43):
I would have been able to pick a school for
not just a dream, but I wish I would have
been able to pick a school for what would have
been a right fit for me as far as what
I could do as a player. So I don't have
a lot of regrets as a as a post college
on UM. But I I shouldn't say that's a tough

(41:09):
question because I don't want to come across like I'm
saying I'm regretting I went to Ohio State and just
regretting how I got there. Like I wish I would
have been more, I would have thought it through a
little bit more instead of just picking it because I
was going there no matter what. Um, if that makes sense, Well,
where do you think you would go if you if
you had the benefit of you right now? And we
all would love to have that older angel who could

(41:31):
whisper into our ear. But if you did have the
benefit of of of you, where would you guide guide him?
Or at least what would you else would you put
in front of him? Give me another school or two
you would have talked to him about. Well, I mean
the back then probably would have gone to like a
Notre Dame or or maybe maybe I don't know if
I can imagine putting that Michigan helmet on. But Michigan

(41:54):
system fit me perfectly at that time, and boshm was
was the head coach. I mean it would have been.
I mean back then, if you were being recruited by
Ohio State in Michigan, you even went to Ohio State
or you went to Michigan because their their brands were
so similar. Um. But I don't know if I could
have ever gotten to a point where actually, like like
I just said, put the helmet on just because I

(42:16):
grew up my whole life and they were they were
the Nemesis. They were they were the evil Empire, you know,
the whole my whole life. So but but yeah, that
that Notre Dame would have been in play for sure.
Lou Holtz was the head coach at that time at
Notre Dame. Yeah. Um, who's gonna win the Heisman this year? Uh,
I'll say Spencer Rattler from Oklahoma? Interesting? Interesting another Oklahoma quarterback? Yeah,

(42:41):
Baker Bayfield, Kyler Murray, Yeah, Jalen got close enough. And
uh and now you're saying Spencer Rattler And of course
going back to Jason White. Uh and uh did Sam
Bradford ever actually winned or he just went yeah he did? Wow. Yeah,
they've they've had a bunch of them. Yeah. Yeah, they
had a heck of a run. They really have. They

(43:01):
really have. The greatest athlete you've ever played with or against.
Uh Man, there's a lot of them. When I was
at Ohio State, Joey Galloway, Eddie, George Robert Smith, Big Daddy,
Dan Wilkinson. I Uh, I would probably say Joey Galloway,

(43:23):
who played in the NFL for about eighteen years as
a wide receiver, mainly for the Cowboys, the Tampa Bay Bucks.
I mean he ran a four one forty. He bench
pressed over four hundred pounds. Um, never put a sip
of alcohol in his body. He's a really good friend
of mine, but he he would probably be the most
impressive athlete. Um, not only that I played with. I'd

(43:47):
argued maybe that I've ever seen. He's he's a unique,
once in a lifetime kind of athlete. You say that,
even that you've seen, and you're including Michael Vick and
Vince Young and Peter Awarrick and Dion and all these guys. Yeah, yeah,
And what hurt Joey was if you go back and
look at Joey Galloway's NFL career, if you look at

(44:10):
the quarterbacks he played with, respectfully to to all the quarterbacks,
he never had a guy like if he would have
played with Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers, Joey Galloway would
have been in the Hall of Fame and people be
talking about him forever. But he never. He never. He
he got Warren Moon for just a cup of coffee
near the end of Warren Moon's career. You know, he

(44:34):
played just sparingly with some of some of these guys
and a lot of the other guys they were just journeyman,
just kind of guys that never really panned out. But
his physical skill set was was tremendous. Yeah, very very good. Wow. Um,
all right, last two questions here. The most interesting thing
you've learned in this life about love? UM? I would

(44:58):
say love is is is challenging. But at the same time,
I'm very big on not holding grudges, Like, if you
have an argument with somebody you love, um, I'm five
minutes later, I'm right back either apologizing. I'm very big

(45:18):
on apologizing when I you know, if I make a mistake,
or if I say something I shouldn't have said or
do something that I shouldn't have done. I'm very big
on talking about it and and addressing it and working
through it and not letting it build up. Not going
back to some of the dysfunction when I grew up

(45:39):
as a kid, I feel like a big part of
my family's struggles were the miscommunication. And when you miscommunicate
with somebody or you don't open up and talk about
an issue, the other person assumes the worst. And if
you do that again and then again, and then again
and then again, and you get into a habit of
not communicating when there's turmoil or there there's an issue,

(46:05):
it's going to become a web that you can no
longer unwind and and work through unless you do hours
and hours and hours and hours of therapy. And so
I've just learned as an adult with my own wife
and my own kids, there's obviously gonna be trauma. There's
obviously gonna be some difficult moments, but I've learned with

(46:26):
love that there's I don't want to say a safety net,
but there's something that there's a willingness to get to
the bottom of something and have those difficult conversations that
you don't always want to do or you don't look
forward to doing. But when you do it, there's like
a cleansing. It's just like, you know what, we can

(46:46):
We're good, we got through that, and we can move forward.
As opposed to, like I said, you hold it back
and you don't talk about it because it's uncomfortable and
I don't want to talk about it. Pooh, that's gonna
blow up down the road. So I just think that
being open, being willing to apologize, having hard conversations, those
are all things that if you really love somebody, then

(47:08):
that's that's the healthiest, healthiest thing you can do. A
final question, most beautiful place you've ever been to in
this world? I I love Maui. You know I. I
don't have a lot of vices. You know, I told
you I didn't come from money, but now that I
have a little bit, my one vice is vacations with
my family. My wife and my kids. We love the
ski So when I'm at the top of a mountain

(47:30):
and I look out at Beaver Creek or Vale or
till you Ride or Deer Valley and you just see
just mountains, there's just something for me. It's really cool
and breathtaking about those moments. Um. But I also love
a sunset in Maui when you're just you know, you're
you're having a drink with your wife and the son's

(47:51):
going down in Maui. You can't beat that either. So
really tough to to to pick one or the other.
But those would be two of my favorite spots. And
are you a fancy hotel guy? Airbnb guy? Who are you?
I'm a fancy hotel guy? Now, I mean I grew
up Red roof end guy, Day's End guy. Nobody even

(48:11):
remembers Red Ruffin. I remember Red Ruffin, I remember Red
Ruffin and Skyline Chili. Yeah, and all that good stuff. Okay,
you got it now, And now I'm embarrassed to admit
now I'm like, I need my nice hotel, you know,
once you give a taste of that. Yeah, it's hard,

(48:34):
it's hard. You know. Years ago, years ago, my mom
was a little sick and we had to do a
lot of trips and um, for a variety of reasons,
I end up having a first class ticket, and so
we switched and I put her in first class. And
after that she never went back. She said, you can't,
she said, she said, she she said, you made a mistake.
You can't send me back. This is too good. I've

(48:57):
been denied too long. I should have been up here
to begin with. That beautiful We always enjoyed it. And
it was a trip to Daton, Ohio from my cousin
Margaret's wedding. Um that I put her in first class
and she never went back. So it's hilarious. You can
all that story. Yeah, you know, those of us who
tasted went from the back road to getting a little

(49:19):
oh yeah, oh yeah, hey, Kirk, thank you thank you
for giving me all this time, and congratulations with all
the good stuff that that you're doing. And uh, I'm
gonna keep rooting for you and the Buckeyes. I know
where at number four, but that's just where we're starting.
That's not where we're hinting. That's right now. They I
saw him just I was up in Columbus the other day.
They have a team that's as good, if not better

(49:42):
than the year before. It'll all come down to the
quarterback c J. S Froud if he he plays well
get ready, I mean, they're gonna have another another big
year in Columbus. What happened to your boy, Tate Martel?
What in the world happened? Yeah? I mean he uh,
he's kind of He was a great runner in high
school and Bishop Gorman out in Vegas. I remember him.

(50:04):
But man, he's an example of sometimes these kids in
today's day and age, they become so big with social
media that the reality verse the fantasy is pretty skewed
pretty pretty pretty pretty wide margin. And he just never
panned out at Ohio State and went down to Miami, Florida.

(50:26):
Was there for a couple of years that didn't pan
out there, And I think he's back in Las Vegas.
I think where he grew up. So you know, I
hate to see those kind of stories, but uh, but
you know they're out there, they're out there. But he was.
He was a great high school quarterback. I remember him.
And he pulled out some he pulled out some narrow

(50:47):
games that Bishop Gorman when it looked like that wind
streak was going to get surrendered, and uh, he never surrendered.
He stayed in there. So I yeah, he was. He
was a good player. Yeah, hey, hey, thank you Grassis.
Next time, if you guys, I'm out here in the
Bay Area near David Shaw, who I like a lot
as well. And I'm an old town Gold Mountain View
and next time you're out here, I may try and

(51:08):
come by and shake your hands say hello. It would
be awesome. That'd be awesome. Yeah, yeah, hey man, you
I've done a million of these in the last week
and a half, but this is this a lot of fun.
You've got a real good way about you, so I
can see why you had a lot of success in
your career. So wish you all the mask and thank
you for having me. Hey, my pleasure, thank you for
being here. I appreciate it. Okay, see man, all right,

(51:29):
take here. Thank you for listening to this episode of
The Carlos Batson Show podcast. If you enjoyed this episode,
please tell your friends to find us on the I
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