September 14, 2021 • 31 mins
Carlos talks to Canadian journalist, author and podcast host Malcolm Gladwell about the future of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, the cities to watch in the future and his new book, The Bomber Mafia.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Malcolm Gladwell grew up in Canada and began to wander
the halls of the university where his father worked, sparking
an interest in reading and libraries. Fast forward, Malcolm has
published multiple New York Times bestselling books, co founded the
podcast and audiobook production company Pushkin Industries, and host of
the podcast Revisionist History. On this episode of The Carlos
(00:25):
Watson Show podcast, Malcolm Gladwell talks about the future of
historically black colleges and universities, the cities to watch in
the future, and his new book, The Bomber Mafia. This
episode of The Carlos Watson Show podcast was recorded during
Ozzy Fest in May of I'm so glad to be
(00:47):
kicking things off your at Azzi Fest with literally the
only person who's joining me on stage at every ozzy
Fest we've ever had in the physical world. Now, normally
Malcolm Gladwell and I are sitting in Central Park, full
hot outside, but we're still always having a good time.
You know, he's one of the biggest, brightest, boldest thinkers
in the world, and he and I share a little
(01:08):
Jamaican heritage. I always love having Malcolm as part of
the party. Best selling author Podcastles All Around Mastermind Malcolm
glad Well, Welcome back to Ozzy Fest. Thanks for Carlos. Malcolm.
We started off they're calling you intellectual troublemaker. I think
I kind of like that for you. What is the
best title, best moniker anybody's given you? I think that
(01:31):
might be it. I think I think a little doing
a little mischief. One of the great things about doing
my podcast last couple of years has been it is
an excellent opportunity to stare up trouble um. This season
is no different. Um. It's funny. I didn't realize that
you were that Mozzi. This year was was was donating
(01:52):
proceeds to hpc U S because I have a big
chunk of this season of my podcast is devoted to
the kind of the argument for HPCUS. UH, say say
more about that on revisionist History. Yes, so revisions History
coming up in June two episodes are all about uh
An HPCU in New Orleans called dild University, UM, very
(02:14):
well known. UM. And I asked the question. First of all,
I make the case that dil it is it's really
an extraordinary school like so many HBCUs, and does all
of these interesting things, I mean, important things in the
African American community that no one else is doing. But
then I asked the question, if this is such a
good school, why is its ranking on the U. S.
News College rankings so low? So I do this. It's
(02:38):
its critique of the way we assess quality and higher education.
We basically are mentioning all the wrong things, and these
schools that are doing these amazing things are getting they're
getting dissed by the rankings. And I, you know, it
might seem like a small thing, but it's a reflection
of our values. And Carls, I think that you know
you know this as well as I do. There are
(02:59):
there is some embolic things in our society that reflect
our deeply held positions and our values on things. And
when you start looking at those institutions that that um
sometimes you find that there there are all there's something
wrong with the way they look at the world. And U. S.
News is a classic example of this. It is the
premier way we make sense of the quality of higher
(03:21):
eddiness country, and they are their ability to measure what
is important in education is so flawed and so off
based and so nuts that I decided to go after
them in this and I try to make the case
about a school A lot of these HPCU should be
at the top of the rankings. They're doing insane things
(03:43):
with low tuition, with very few resources. They are graduating
incredible numbers of people in stem fields they are they
are graduating students that rates hot far higher than equivalent schools.
They are instilling a sense of community. I mean, I
could go on and on and on, and they're not
getting the kind of love from the rest of society
that they deserve. And I want to figure out why. Well, well,
(04:06):
Malcolm's all right, so already you've you've done exactly what
you're supposed to do. You've proven yourself an intellectual trouble baker.
You open even for me, the brother, the son, the
grandson of HBCU graduates. You open even fresh thinking for me,
because as I hear you say that, I immediately think,
how different would the opportunities be for our students and
(04:27):
our graduates who graduated from Dillard or Florida A and
M or Howard or North Carolina A and T if
they were seen as top ten ranks schools. How much
more money would they make, how much more kind of
level of donations, what kind of research opportunities and other
sorts of things. How much would they shift the conversation.
How much would you see their professors on CNBC or
(04:50):
CNN or MSNBC. That is a really very provocative and
interesting um, not at all. God, how how much easy
it would it be for them to rad is money?
I mean, let's face it, the higher education game in
this in this country is about money. Everything flows from
how much money can you raise. You're an HBCU, you
go out and you're competing with other schools in now
(05:12):
in the you know, for a limited pool of cash
from basically wealthy Americans. It is a lot harder to
make your case when no one's heard of you and
no one considers you prestigious right, and a lot easier
if you're recognized for what you do. So this is
not we're not just talking about bragging rights. We're talking
about the the This goes to the core of their
ability to carry out their mission. And there is something
(05:35):
I mean, I wish i'd if we had two hours, Carlos,
I could walk you through all the way that this
system is. It's when when I say it's not it's
an understatement. It is profoundly offensive on so many levels
the way these these kinds of systems. So you're a
seventeen year old kid trying to figure out where to
go to college, and you the first thing you do
(05:58):
is look at those rankings, and those rankings, as aventually
tell you that HBC user at the bottom, and you know,
fancy expensive, small liberal arts colleges in New England or
at the top, and that is not a reflection of
what they actually do as educational institutions. You know, one
of the things I've always appreciated about you, I know
very few people who do this. Recently I discovered Neil
(06:21):
de grass Tyson is your brother in arms on this,
another New York City guy. Is Both of you fundamentally
question norms. Both of you question the rules and the referees.
Most of us, whether we're talking about education, sports, finance,
government policy, for whatever combination of reasons, we're not programmed
to say, wait, is this even set up properly? Like,
(06:43):
do we have the right set of rules, the right
set of norms? Are those people qualified to be the
right referees and to be the right arbiters of of
whether or not something is good, strong, compelling, epic, not
useful at all? Where did that come from for you?
For you? A, do you think I'm right that you
are a middle question of these? Um and I think
you are. Um. But if I am right, where did
(07:05):
that come from within you to do it so consistently
because most of us don't do it as ray. I've
seen you do it with the Sandra Bland case. Around policing.
I've seen you do it with people talk about how
do you think about training? You know obviously the famous
ten thousand hours, etcetera. Where does that come from with you?
That's a good question. I mean, you know, you and
(07:26):
I are both both had a little a good bit
of Jamaican in us. We know about what it means
to be a disputatious West Indian. I'm a little bit
disputatious West Indian, you know with we are not shrinking violence. Uh.
And I had a father. Actually who my dad was
it was in the best sense of the word of subversive.
(07:48):
He don't really care what the world told him he
should think. He you know, he went out and I
thought his own thoughts and did his own thing. And
um and I that was a very good example growing up.
I mean, it really does help to have have parents
who make their own way in the world, you know,
who just aren't hung up on And I had that,
and that's made a big difference in my line. Malcolm.
(08:27):
You and I've talked about it before, but I'm asking
it again, both for me, but also for people who
may be joining us. Is maybe their first AZZI fests.
Maybe they couldn't have joined us in Central Park in
the past, so they haven't had access to that. Um um,
But but when did you arrive at a meaningful level
of confidence? Because I I engage with you as someone
who is who is quite confident, and I mean that
(08:50):
in the best sense of the word. At what point
was this true Malcolm in high school? Was this more
true Malcolm? After college? Was this true Malcolm once he
starts not just writing articles but writing books? When did
I get confident? Malcolm? Well, I mean I don't think
I was. If if you, if we were, if we
were talking to each other throughty years ago, would I
(09:11):
be as confident? Probably not? But um so it's sort
of it's the benefit of experience and um you know,
I've people it's a lot easier if you're my agent
you've been doing it for three two years. Um, I
know I have an audience of people who will listen
to me and not necessarily agree with me, but who
(09:32):
will listen to me, who are curious about what I
have to say, you know, and that once you know
you have an audience like that, who Um, I always
tell I'm sure I've told you the sort of. This
is my favorite story ever. I mean, a coffee shop
in Houston and a fancy part of Houston, and this
woman drives up in a range Rover with full on
you know, white matron of Houston. Right. She sees me,
(09:55):
She comes over to me, and she says, you, Malcolm
Gladless Again, She goes, I have read every thing you've
ever written, and I have disagreed with everything you've ever said.
And I thought that's perfect right. How can you not
get confidence from that? She doesn't need to agree with
me to wanna listen to my podcast or read my books.
She's quite happy just exploring along with me. When you
(10:17):
get that kind of feedback, that makes a big difference. Yeah. Yeah,
I love that, and I love where it happened, and
I love that it happened in Houston. Houston by the
way you and I have to have a conversation about
that later on. There are a couple of places in
the world where something is going on. Houston. I know
it's the fourth largest city and all that kind of
good stuff, but they have an extraordinary interesting number of characters.
(10:38):
I don't just mean Beyonce. They have extraordinary umber characters
who have come out of that city and out of
that place. And over the last year and meeting a
lot of people, I've become convinced that Houston is one
of the unique, uh breeding grounds of of extraordinary American
talent and kind of classic I thought you're gonna say Atlanta.
(10:59):
I've Atlanta sometimes that Atlanta is that is the in
the best sense of the word, that is the future
of America. Oh interesting, Well, I think I know why
you're gonna why you're saying that, But say more as
to why, because what's interting me about Atlanta is I
think um talented people like Hollywood many years ago in
New York come to Atlanta now. So it's a destination.
(11:19):
But in terms of growing their own you know, brilliant fruit.
I think Houston is is one of those like low key,
super impressive places, but why is Atlanta on on your
top of your list is the future? Because that's interesting
to me that you're called Atlanta the future. Well, we've
been talking about hpc U S. You know what Atlanta is.
Of course Spellman, Morehouse, Clark Um, you have the gold
(11:44):
standards of that. And so what you have is a
center of black intellectual life and culture and learning that
goes back generations. And that's a huge advantage. Um. And
so you have that, you also have a city. What
do you see, like it is Washing d C. Where
you can walk into any restaurant or whatever in Atlanta
(12:06):
and you will see it's it's it's I think of
one of the most perfectly integrated cities in the country
in a sense that you're not surprised when half the
restaurants black and half the restaurants white. Right. In New
York City, you'd be surprised, you really would. You'd say, oh,
this is what's going on here, like you know, and
so in Atlanta. In Atlanta, you're not gonna be shocked
if you're you know, pediatrician is black, right, or your
(12:28):
brain surgeons black, or your professor of physics is black
or that kind of and then you layer, and so
there's a kind of level of confidence in the way
people from different backgrounds mix there that I love. I
love that about that. And you know, and I had
a conversation with you know, Kenya Barris, who does Blackish
and who went to Clark of course, went to school
(12:51):
in Atlanta, l a guy who goes to Atlanta, and
he was talking about what it meant to have Spike
Lee go to Morehouse and how Spike Lee comes out
of Morehouse and basically gives a whole generation of African
American creative people in this country confidence. They're like, oh,
this guy just went there and came out and just
(13:12):
started doing his own incredibly original thing and the world
loved him for it. And like, I don't if Spike
Lee goes to you know, I don't know, the University
of Florida or some other I don't know, you know,
you name this guy, does that happen? I don't know.
There was something about I mean, I've loved I've never
had this conversation with him. I would love to say,
(13:33):
have a conversation with about what did it mean for
you to go to Morehouse for four years? How did that?
How did that give you confidence, right, because that Spike
emerges from college with a lot of confidence, right, will
you know again talk about interesting mixes. So Spike is
mixing Brooklyn and New York. Part of it is, you know,
(14:00):
mix people are able to do that way. And I
think you're right that in terms of the next wave,
arguably the third wave of HBCU um uh, people knowing
HBCUs and thinking about them in a certain way. You know,
there was the Booker t era, if you will. There
was obviously m l K and MLK coming out of that.
(14:21):
But I think you're right that in more recent times,
I think Spike lead kind of refreshed the image and
the excitement about HBCUs. And obviously we're going through yet
a new one, which is exciting as we speak right now.
But that's really interesting what you're saying about Atlanta. So
who else in terms of cities for whatever combination of
reasons do you think about either as magical cities of
(14:42):
the moment or you think about special cities of the future.
Who's on your list of those special cities? Yeah? You
mean within the United States are everywhere. I'm willing to
go everywhere, especially in this you know, post COVID or
COVID soon to be post COVID, will I would be remissive.
I didn't mentioned Toronto, which is sort of an obvious one.
(15:03):
But I mean, as I you know, raised in Canada,
I have to have a sweet spot for because that's
an interest in the same kind of way. I mean,
it's a it's a city that's grown up inside of
the Canadian experiment, so an experiment that's much more egalitarian, um,
that's much more sort of naturally inclusive, um, that has
(15:23):
brought together. I mean Toronto is a crazy mix of
people from around the world. I mean you can find
everyone in Toronto, and that's sort of and inside of
a society that's prioritize things like just simple things like
it's affordable to go to college, you don't have to
pay for your health care. You you know, there's all
(15:43):
those kinds of things which just make it a lot
easier for people to live their lives. Um. And I
think I think there's real magic there. Um. Uh, we
could go on, but um, you know, between if you
told me I had to live between Toronto and Atlanta,
I'd be like, Okay, I'll do the I'll do the
winters in Atlanta and I'll do the summers in Toronto.
(16:04):
That'd be a good mix. You know, I have never
spent good time in Toronto, but I hear what you're saying.
They're in Toronto is another one that feels like it
is emerged differently over the last i'd say fifteen years.
I felt like Atlanta's emergence and part got really accelerated
with the Olympics, which is now almost years ago. But
I feel like that Toronto and so many, so many
(16:26):
Jamaicans in Toronto. I mean, it's unbelievable. Like there are
points in Toronto where you just think, wait a second,
of my in Kingston or am I and it's very
it's very very confused. Yeah. Yeah, well Toronto has not
only the Caribbean population, but they have a meaningful Indian population,
and I know, and also um Chinese, Chinese, and also
I mean you could go on. I mean, yes, but
(16:47):
it has a really really large East Asian population. Absolutely,
(17:08):
so so many things I want to talk about. I know,
time is gonna run away from us. And there are
tons of people asking questions in the comments, so I
see all you guys who are doing that, keep doing that.
We're gonna get some of these questions, uh and um not.
One of the things I was curious about, and that
a number of folks in the comments asked about, was
what's been your biggest two or three takeaways from the
last year? And I say that knowing the last year
has meant COVID, it's meant UM an election, it's meant
(17:33):
an insurrection, it's meant a racial reckoning, it's meant a
ton of things. But how do you, sitting here today,
what are your two or three biggest takeaways as you
look back on the last I guess I'd really say
a year and a half my the most meaningful moment
for me. And this actually goes you know. I've I've
just come out with this new book called The Bottom Mafia,
this story from the Second Mold Boar, which is a
(17:54):
um uh it's an audio book and a and a
regular pent book as well. And I was got immersed
in the culture of the Air Force when I was
doing this, and um, in the middle of last summer,
when things were craziest, the Air Force had a changeover. UM.
The guy who ran the Air Force, General Golfing, retired
and he was replaced by General Brown. UM and General
(18:18):
Brown is the first African American UM person to run
to head the Air Force in its history. And at
the time he took over, we also had a uh
the the the Secretary of the Air Force was a woman,
the second woman in the history of the And there
was a change over ceremony which I watched online and
it was I think it was in August or July,
(18:41):
right when everything seemed really crazy in this country, right,
like everything was going to hell in a handbasket. And
I watched this ceremony that was conducted with dignity and thoughtfulness,
with a deep sense of history. A group of people
who came together because they were they love their country
and they wanted to defend their country, and they were
(19:03):
peacefully handing over responsibility to a new generation of leaders.
And the speeches were insane, they were like, they were funny,
they were warm. At one point the Secretary of the
Air Force broke into tears talking about that. And then
you get this new guy comes in who is you know,
has a kind of dignity and graciousness about him, and
(19:26):
the whole thing. I was just sitting there, you know,
and I had the attitude I was like many of
us really despairing for the American experiment last summer, and
then I watched this thing and I felt, you know what,
we're gonna be Okay. There are parts of this country
that work amazingly well even in times of crisis, you know.
And there was no you think back on how much
(19:49):
how politically divided and charged and crazy things were in July,
there was zero politics and none. It was people talking
about their love of the country, the history of the
Air Force, the the future of the Air Force, the
obligations of people who served in the Air Force. That
was what the discussion was about. And it Carlos, I
(20:12):
was in tears. I mean it was it was and
and to see like and you know, and for the
first time in history, in the middle of all the
George Floyd's stuff, you have an African American taking over
the Air Force. And it wasn't even an issue. They
weren't talking about. It wasn't something we're going to do
this to show the world. No, No, he was just
the best man for the job, right without any kind
(20:33):
of like fanfare. And I just it. I've said this
a bunch of times as I've been promoting this book
of mine. It just, I mean, it blew me away,
and I just it just restored my faith. Um, and
I have been optimistic ever since, really really hard. Oh.
I love it. And do you think you would have
sustained that optimism if President Trump had won a second term? Well, don't.
(21:01):
My eighty nine year old mom in Canada, who has
never lived in the United States, you know, Jamaican by Birthudy,
she would have been so angry Hick Trump. She would
have called me up and like, I mean, so I
think that might have that might have been. Um, I
don't know. That's a hard counter factual, but in July one,
we didn't know what was going to happen. That was
(21:24):
that was what I needed. I needed some reassurance that
this the institutions of this country still worked and they
do still work. Yeah, I think you did something special
over the last year, just to toot your horn for
a minute, which is while we're calling it a book,
I think more sumptuous than the written word is what
(21:44):
you've called an audio book, which I don't even know
that that fully does it justice. And it feels like
when you and I talked several years ago and you
were just beginning this podcasting journey and building this company
with Jacob called Pushkin, and and obviously bringing alive not
only revisionist history but other podcasts as well. It felt
like someone who finally was like bringing all of it together,
(22:05):
like bringing his left in and his right in and
putting it all together. Am I overstating what happened with
the bomber Mafia? And was there a purposeful intention? And
weaving together those different storytelling episodes. The idea was that
we want to use audio in a new way. I
normally audio because you's someone reading into a microphone. We
(22:26):
want to that seems crazy to us. You know, there's
all these I wanted to tell the story from the
Second World Boy, this insane story about that ends in
the bombing of Japan. And we have all of this tape,
archival tape. We have tape of the battles, we have
the sound of the engines, we have all these generals
in the Second World War, we have these hours and
(22:47):
hours and hours and we're talking. And the ideas we
could bring all that together, along with interviews of historians
in the present day looking back on this and create
an experience. Um and now I'm doing And that was
the idea that is, I'm quite unlike I will say
this immodestly, it is quite unlike any other audiobook you
will ever encounter. You can just you know, go get
(23:08):
it at you know, Bomber Mafia dot Com and like
it's it's wild. But now we're doing one on the
l A p D. We're gonna do one on the
history of American policing the same way. So I want
to get all of these voices. You know, are you
having Maxine on this? You know, oh man, oh man.
So Maxine, I've been chasing that. I mean, I am
(23:30):
obsessed with Maxine. But Maxine, So when you're interviewing Maxine,
listen to listen to the way she talks and say
to yourself, why would you ever do anything with Maxine
where you can't hear her? The whole thing about her
is her voice right everything here she is. She's this
(23:51):
indomitable She's like, I've forgotten her exactistory, but she's you know,
she's like a share cropper's daughter or something. She's she's
one of the one of the teen kids. When if
thirteen kids comes to l a self created puts herself through,
you know, starts out working as a seamstress in a
garment factory, you know, climbs the ladder. That woman is
(24:15):
like indomitable. She's like, you know, you have to hear her,
but you have to hear her. So she's part of
the story. By the way, you know who was who
was going after the l A p. D in the
nineteen sixties when no one else had the courage nineteen
Steve sixty and seventy. Maxine Waters was part of that band.
It was a small band of African Americans in that
(24:36):
city who took on the most powerful police force in
the country. She was front and center, and like, you
have to hear her to understand how did this she?
What does she five feet? I don't know she's if
she is she a hundred and five pounds, I've know it.
She's tiny, This tiny little woman from like the middle
of nowhere, who created herself takes on that in institution, right,
(25:01):
and that's a so like, that's what I want to capture.
I have to capture them. Well, you know what's powerful?
You know the phrase that when you talk to her
comes back over and over again, and she says it
sometimes in the most casual moments and she means it
with the depth that you're saying it. She'll say to me, Carlos,
I'm not new to this. Oh, she's not new to it.
(25:22):
And she means that across a whole series of things
that she's recognized the importance of it. She's recognized the ethic,
ethical compromises that we need to fix. She recognizes how
tough it's gonna be. And yet she's still here and
she's still fighting for it, and I really I appreciate that. Um.
(25:44):
See last thing about I went to visit her before,
like two or three years ago, and we were in
her district in substance, I've forgotten the exact neighborhood. Um,
it's next to Abwin Hills. Anyway, we're walking down the street,
you would have thought she is John the Baptist. People
were like running out of stores, they were grabbing their kids.
(26:05):
She was mobbed. We need to get in the car,
We need to we need to get back into her
car and drive two blocks just to safe from the crowds.
It was nuts. I've never seen anything like that. Is
there a single politician in this country outside of Barack
Obama who could, could not cannot walk down a Street
because she's getting mobbed by people who just want to
(26:26):
basically touch her. Right that it was it was mind
blowing alright. So not that I'm in charge of recommending
your next set of books or podcasts. But there's also
we're living in an interesting moment here, Malcolm, where once
upon a time, youth was prized, right JFK. Young President
forty three. Uh. Young CEOs have been a thing. Young athletes, olympians,
(26:50):
young musicians. There was a time when if you were
an actor a model past a certain age, opportunities kind
of started to dissipate. But we're living in a moment
with people like Fauci, Pelosi, Waters, um uh, Biden right,
um uh. You know, it's such an interesting moment here
whether we will end up recalibrating how we think about
(27:13):
age and how we think about seniority and wisdom because
we do have quite a set of interesting people in
their late seventies and eighties who are really absolutely critical
on the world stage, or at least certainly here in
the US. I worry a little bit about that. I
don't mind, you know, Matt, I love that Maxine has
(27:35):
been around forever. That's really important. Um, But if everyone
is in their eighties. You're not creating a new generation
of leaders. Like when I want to go back to that,
when I was in New Orleans talking to the guy
who runs Dillard, who is a guy named Walter Kimbra
Atlanta guy um who is as who is as intelligent
and charismatic and interesting and devoted UH leader as I
(27:59):
have met in a very long time. And after talking
to him, I was so impressed. But I said, Walter,
are you gonna run for office? And I don't think
it had occurred to him, um, And I think people
like him should that should occur to people like him.
I think he's fifty and he is a He would
be a fresh and important face on the same thing
(28:22):
as I was in Birmingham, a going as a guy
who the mayor of Birmingham, who's another young much younger
than Walter Kimbero even now, the young guy. He should
not be mayor of Birmingham his whole life. He should
be this. He should be a senator from Alabama and
he could win. I mean, he's another charismatic young African
American leader. Those guys, we have to create room for
(28:43):
those people. You cannot You can't like keep people. You've
gotta you gotta open up opportunities higher up that they
can so they can so the rest of us can
can can reap the value of the talent there. You know, Malcolm,
the time has gotten away from us too quickly. Uh,
it's crazy, but this happens to us every time. I
(29:04):
can't let you leave though without giving us thirty seconds,
which I know is not enough. But for those I've
obviously read bomb Ra Mafia, for those who haven't read,
would you give them thirty seconds just so they know
the magic that awaits. What's the story about. It's a
story about a small group of pilots in central Alabama
the nineteen thirties who think they can reinvent war and
(29:27):
have an idea that you can fight, you can wage
a war much more humanely, you can solve the great
moral dilemma of war. And there are these idealists who
take this idea into the Second World War and try
and try and reform war from the middle of that
intense conflict. And it's the story of what happens. And
it's a crazy story with like wild geniuses and crazy
(29:53):
scientists at Harvard and it's heartbreaking at the end what
happens because they bring this crusade right to the very
climax of the war, and they are not gonna tell
a story about I'm not gonna gonna but it's just
a kind of there are so many strange turns and
crazy characters and bloodthirsty generals and um, it's it's it's
(30:15):
not the whole thing is nuts. It's it's it's delicious, folks,
and you have to listen to it. Even though I
love Malcolm, don't read it. Get the audio. Get the
audio feast. I'm not gonna call it audio book. Get
the audio feast, because you managed to actually get their
voices down there, and it is crazy to hear you're
essentially reaching back in time almost a hundred years to
(30:38):
hear these people kind of code tell the story, which
is great, which I really I really enjoyed. It's really good.
So um hey, uh, Malcolm, thank you, and Grazia you
still remain You're like the Lou Garrig of of Oz.
You're like the only person who we've invited every year
year and you're out. I don't think we've ever had
anyone else come even two times. So thank you for
(31:01):
keeping the streak alive, my pleasure. Thank you, Carlos, goodness
you be saying okay. Thank you for listening me to
this episode of The Carlos Watson Show podcast. If you
(31:23):
enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review where ever
you listen to your podcast
Malcolm Gladwell grew up in Canada and began to wander
the halls of the university where his father worked, sparking
an interest in reading and libraries. Fast forward, Malcolm has
published multiple New York Times bestselling books, co founded the
podcast and audiobook production company Pushkin Industries, and host of
the podcast Revisionist History. On this episode of The Carlos
(00:25):
Watson Show podcast, Malcolm Gladwell talks about the future of
historically black colleges and universities, the cities to watch in
the future, and his new book, The Bomber Mafia. This
episode of The Carlos Watson Show podcast was recorded during
Ozzy Fest in May of I'm so glad to be
(00:47):
kicking things off your at Azzi Fest with literally the
only person who's joining me on stage at every ozzy
Fest we've ever had in the physical world. Now, normally
Malcolm Gladwell and I are sitting in Central Park, full
hot outside, but we're still always having a good time.
You know, he's one of the biggest, brightest, boldest thinkers
in the world, and he and I share a little
(01:08):
Jamaican heritage. I always love having Malcolm as part of
the party. Best selling author Podcastles All Around Mastermind Malcolm
glad Well, Welcome back to Ozzy Fest. Thanks for Carlos. Malcolm.
We started off they're calling you intellectual troublemaker. I think
I kind of like that for you. What is the
best title, best moniker anybody's given you? I think that
(01:31):
might be it. I think I think a little doing
a little mischief. One of the great things about doing
my podcast last couple of years has been it is
an excellent opportunity to stare up trouble um. This season
is no different. Um. It's funny. I didn't realize that
you were that Mozzi. This year was was was donating
(01:52):
proceeds to hpc U S because I have a big
chunk of this season of my podcast is devoted to
the kind of the argument for HPCUS. UH, say say
more about that on revisionist History. Yes, so revisions History
coming up in June two episodes are all about uh
An HPCU in New Orleans called dild University, UM, very
(02:14):
well known. UM. And I asked the question. First of all,
I make the case that dil it is it's really
an extraordinary school like so many HBCUs, and does all
of these interesting things, I mean, important things in the
African American community that no one else is doing. But
then I asked the question, if this is such a
good school, why is its ranking on the U. S.
News College rankings so low? So I do this. It's
(02:38):
its critique of the way we assess quality and higher education.
We basically are mentioning all the wrong things, and these
schools that are doing these amazing things are getting they're
getting dissed by the rankings. And I, you know, it
might seem like a small thing, but it's a reflection
of our values. And Carls, I think that you know
you know this as well as I do. There are
(02:59):
there is some embolic things in our society that reflect
our deeply held positions and our values on things. And
when you start looking at those institutions that that um
sometimes you find that there there are all there's something
wrong with the way they look at the world. And U. S.
News is a classic example of this. It is the
premier way we make sense of the quality of higher
(03:21):
eddiness country, and they are their ability to measure what
is important in education is so flawed and so off
based and so nuts that I decided to go after
them in this and I try to make the case
about a school A lot of these HPCU should be
at the top of the rankings. They're doing insane things
(03:43):
with low tuition, with very few resources. They are graduating
incredible numbers of people in stem fields they are they
are graduating students that rates hot far higher than equivalent schools.
They are instilling a sense of community. I mean, I
could go on and on and on, and they're not
getting the kind of love from the rest of society
that they deserve. And I want to figure out why. Well, well,
(04:06):
Malcolm's all right, so already you've you've done exactly what
you're supposed to do. You've proven yourself an intellectual trouble baker.
You open even for me, the brother, the son, the
grandson of HBCU graduates. You open even fresh thinking for me,
because as I hear you say that, I immediately think,
how different would the opportunities be for our students and
(04:27):
our graduates who graduated from Dillard or Florida A and
M or Howard or North Carolina A and T if
they were seen as top ten ranks schools. How much
more money would they make, how much more kind of
level of donations, what kind of research opportunities and other
sorts of things. How much would they shift the conversation.
How much would you see their professors on CNBC or
(04:50):
CNN or MSNBC. That is a really very provocative and
interesting um, not at all. God, how how much easy
it would it be for them to rad is money?
I mean, let's face it, the higher education game in
this in this country is about money. Everything flows from
how much money can you raise. You're an HBCU, you
go out and you're competing with other schools in now
(05:12):
in the you know, for a limited pool of cash
from basically wealthy Americans. It is a lot harder to
make your case when no one's heard of you and
no one considers you prestigious right, and a lot easier
if you're recognized for what you do. So this is
not we're not just talking about bragging rights. We're talking
about the the This goes to the core of their
ability to carry out their mission. And there is something
(05:35):
I mean, I wish i'd if we had two hours, Carlos,
I could walk you through all the way that this
system is. It's when when I say it's not it's
an understatement. It is profoundly offensive on so many levels
the way these these kinds of systems. So you're a
seventeen year old kid trying to figure out where to
go to college, and you the first thing you do
(05:58):
is look at those rankings, and those rankings, as aventually
tell you that HBC user at the bottom, and you know,
fancy expensive, small liberal arts colleges in New England or
at the top, and that is not a reflection of
what they actually do as educational institutions. You know, one
of the things I've always appreciated about you, I know
very few people who do this. Recently I discovered Neil
(06:21):
de grass Tyson is your brother in arms on this,
another New York City guy. Is Both of you fundamentally
question norms. Both of you question the rules and the referees.
Most of us, whether we're talking about education, sports, finance,
government policy, for whatever combination of reasons, we're not programmed
to say, wait, is this even set up properly? Like,
(06:43):
do we have the right set of rules, the right
set of norms? Are those people qualified to be the
right referees and to be the right arbiters of of
whether or not something is good, strong, compelling, epic, not
useful at all? Where did that come from for you?
For you? A, do you think I'm right that you
are a middle question of these? Um and I think
you are. Um. But if I am right, where did
(07:05):
that come from within you to do it so consistently
because most of us don't do it as ray. I've
seen you do it with the Sandra Bland case. Around policing.
I've seen you do it with people talk about how
do you think about training? You know obviously the famous
ten thousand hours, etcetera. Where does that come from with you?
That's a good question. I mean, you know, you and
(07:26):
I are both both had a little a good bit
of Jamaican in us. We know about what it means
to be a disputatious West Indian. I'm a little bit
disputatious West Indian, you know with we are not shrinking violence. Uh.
And I had a father. Actually who my dad was
it was in the best sense of the word of subversive.
(07:48):
He don't really care what the world told him he
should think. He you know, he went out and I
thought his own thoughts and did his own thing. And
um and I that was a very good example growing up.
I mean, it really does help to have have parents
who make their own way in the world, you know,
who just aren't hung up on And I had that,
and that's made a big difference in my line. Malcolm.
(08:27):
You and I've talked about it before, but I'm asking
it again, both for me, but also for people who
may be joining us. Is maybe their first AZZI fests.
Maybe they couldn't have joined us in Central Park in
the past, so they haven't had access to that. Um um,
But but when did you arrive at a meaningful level
of confidence? Because I I engage with you as someone
who is who is quite confident, and I mean that
(08:50):
in the best sense of the word. At what point
was this true Malcolm in high school? Was this more
true Malcolm? After college? Was this true Malcolm once he
starts not just writing articles but writing books? When did
I get confident? Malcolm? Well, I mean I don't think
I was. If if you, if we were, if we
were talking to each other throughty years ago, would I
(09:11):
be as confident? Probably not? But um so it's sort
of it's the benefit of experience and um you know,
I've people it's a lot easier if you're my agent
you've been doing it for three two years. Um, I
know I have an audience of people who will listen
to me and not necessarily agree with me, but who
(09:32):
will listen to me, who are curious about what I
have to say, you know, and that once you know
you have an audience like that, who Um, I always
tell I'm sure I've told you the sort of. This
is my favorite story ever. I mean, a coffee shop
in Houston and a fancy part of Houston, and this
woman drives up in a range Rover with full on
you know, white matron of Houston. Right. She sees me,
(09:55):
She comes over to me, and she says, you, Malcolm
Gladless Again, She goes, I have read every thing you've
ever written, and I have disagreed with everything you've ever said.
And I thought that's perfect right. How can you not
get confidence from that? She doesn't need to agree with
me to wanna listen to my podcast or read my books.
She's quite happy just exploring along with me. When you
(10:17):
get that kind of feedback, that makes a big difference. Yeah. Yeah,
I love that, and I love where it happened, and
I love that it happened in Houston. Houston by the
way you and I have to have a conversation about
that later on. There are a couple of places in
the world where something is going on. Houston. I know
it's the fourth largest city and all that kind of
good stuff, but they have an extraordinary interesting number of characters.
(10:38):
I don't just mean Beyonce. They have extraordinary umber characters
who have come out of that city and out of
that place. And over the last year and meeting a
lot of people, I've become convinced that Houston is one
of the unique, uh breeding grounds of of extraordinary American
talent and kind of classic I thought you're gonna say Atlanta.
(10:59):
I've Atlanta sometimes that Atlanta is that is the in
the best sense of the word, that is the future
of America. Oh interesting, Well, I think I know why
you're gonna why you're saying that, But say more as
to why, because what's interting me about Atlanta is I
think um talented people like Hollywood many years ago in
New York come to Atlanta now. So it's a destination.
(11:19):
But in terms of growing their own you know, brilliant fruit.
I think Houston is is one of those like low key,
super impressive places, but why is Atlanta on on your
top of your list is the future? Because that's interesting
to me that you're called Atlanta the future. Well, we've
been talking about hpc U S. You know what Atlanta is.
Of course Spellman, Morehouse, Clark Um, you have the gold
(11:44):
standards of that. And so what you have is a
center of black intellectual life and culture and learning that
goes back generations. And that's a huge advantage. Um. And
so you have that, you also have a city. What
do you see, like it is Washing d C. Where
you can walk into any restaurant or whatever in Atlanta
(12:06):
and you will see it's it's it's I think of
one of the most perfectly integrated cities in the country
in a sense that you're not surprised when half the
restaurants black and half the restaurants white. Right. In New
York City, you'd be surprised, you really would. You'd say, oh,
this is what's going on here, like you know, and
so in Atlanta. In Atlanta, you're not gonna be shocked
if you're you know, pediatrician is black, right, or your
(12:28):
brain surgeons black, or your professor of physics is black
or that kind of and then you layer, and so
there's a kind of level of confidence in the way
people from different backgrounds mix there that I love. I
love that about that. And you know, and I had
a conversation with you know, Kenya Barris, who does Blackish
and who went to Clark of course, went to school
(12:51):
in Atlanta, l a guy who goes to Atlanta, and
he was talking about what it meant to have Spike
Lee go to Morehouse and how Spike Lee comes out
of Morehouse and basically gives a whole generation of African
American creative people in this country confidence. They're like, oh,
this guy just went there and came out and just
(13:12):
started doing his own incredibly original thing and the world
loved him for it. And like, I don't if Spike
Lee goes to you know, I don't know, the University
of Florida or some other I don't know, you know,
you name this guy, does that happen? I don't know.
There was something about I mean, I've loved I've never
had this conversation with him. I would love to say,
(13:33):
have a conversation with about what did it mean for
you to go to Morehouse for four years? How did that?
How did that give you confidence, right, because that Spike
emerges from college with a lot of confidence, right, will
you know again talk about interesting mixes. So Spike is
mixing Brooklyn and New York. Part of it is, you know,
(14:00):
mix people are able to do that way. And I
think you're right that in terms of the next wave,
arguably the third wave of HBCU um uh, people knowing
HBCUs and thinking about them in a certain way. You know,
there was the Booker t era, if you will. There
was obviously m l K and MLK coming out of that.
(14:21):
But I think you're right that in more recent times,
I think Spike lead kind of refreshed the image and
the excitement about HBCUs. And obviously we're going through yet
a new one, which is exciting as we speak right now.
But that's really interesting what you're saying about Atlanta. So
who else in terms of cities for whatever combination of
reasons do you think about either as magical cities of
(14:42):
the moment or you think about special cities of the future.
Who's on your list of those special cities? Yeah? You
mean within the United States are everywhere. I'm willing to
go everywhere, especially in this you know, post COVID or
COVID soon to be post COVID, will I would be remissive.
I didn't mentioned Toronto, which is sort of an obvious one.
(15:03):
But I mean, as I you know, raised in Canada,
I have to have a sweet spot for because that's
an interest in the same kind of way. I mean,
it's a it's a city that's grown up inside of
the Canadian experiment, so an experiment that's much more egalitarian, um,
that's much more sort of naturally inclusive, um, that has
(15:23):
brought together. I mean Toronto is a crazy mix of
people from around the world. I mean you can find
everyone in Toronto, and that's sort of and inside of
a society that's prioritize things like just simple things like
it's affordable to go to college, you don't have to
pay for your health care. You you know, there's all
(15:43):
those kinds of things which just make it a lot
easier for people to live their lives. Um. And I
think I think there's real magic there. Um. Uh, we
could go on, but um, you know, between if you
told me I had to live between Toronto and Atlanta,
I'd be like, Okay, I'll do the I'll do the
winters in Atlanta and I'll do the summers in Toronto.
(16:04):
That'd be a good mix. You know, I have never
spent good time in Toronto, but I hear what you're saying.
They're in Toronto is another one that feels like it
is emerged differently over the last i'd say fifteen years.
I felt like Atlanta's emergence and part got really accelerated
with the Olympics, which is now almost years ago. But
I feel like that Toronto and so many, so many
(16:26):
Jamaicans in Toronto. I mean, it's unbelievable. Like there are
points in Toronto where you just think, wait a second,
of my in Kingston or am I and it's very
it's very very confused. Yeah. Yeah, well Toronto has not
only the Caribbean population, but they have a meaningful Indian population,
and I know, and also um Chinese, Chinese, and also
I mean you could go on. I mean, yes, but
(16:47):
it has a really really large East Asian population. Absolutely,
(17:08):
so so many things I want to talk about. I know,
time is gonna run away from us. And there are
tons of people asking questions in the comments, so I
see all you guys who are doing that, keep doing that.
We're gonna get some of these questions, uh and um not.
One of the things I was curious about, and that
a number of folks in the comments asked about, was
what's been your biggest two or three takeaways from the
last year? And I say that knowing the last year
has meant COVID, it's meant UM an election, it's meant
(17:33):
an insurrection, it's meant a racial reckoning, it's meant a
ton of things. But how do you, sitting here today,
what are your two or three biggest takeaways as you
look back on the last I guess I'd really say
a year and a half my the most meaningful moment
for me. And this actually goes you know. I've I've
just come out with this new book called The Bottom Mafia,
this story from the Second Mold Boar, which is a
(17:54):
um uh it's an audio book and a and a
regular pent book as well. And I was got immersed
in the culture of the Air Force when I was
doing this, and um, in the middle of last summer,
when things were craziest, the Air Force had a changeover. UM.
The guy who ran the Air Force, General Golfing, retired
and he was replaced by General Brown. UM and General
(18:18):
Brown is the first African American UM person to run
to head the Air Force in its history. And at
the time he took over, we also had a uh
the the the Secretary of the Air Force was a woman,
the second woman in the history of the And there
was a change over ceremony which I watched online and
it was I think it was in August or July,
(18:41):
right when everything seemed really crazy in this country, right,
like everything was going to hell in a handbasket. And
I watched this ceremony that was conducted with dignity and thoughtfulness,
with a deep sense of history. A group of people
who came together because they were they love their country
and they wanted to defend their country, and they were
(19:03):
peacefully handing over responsibility to a new generation of leaders.
And the speeches were insane, they were like, they were funny,
they were warm. At one point the Secretary of the
Air Force broke into tears talking about that. And then
you get this new guy comes in who is you know,
has a kind of dignity and graciousness about him, and
(19:26):
the whole thing. I was just sitting there, you know,
and I had the attitude I was like many of
us really despairing for the American experiment last summer, and
then I watched this thing and I felt, you know what,
we're gonna be Okay. There are parts of this country
that work amazingly well even in times of crisis, you know.
And there was no you think back on how much
(19:49):
how politically divided and charged and crazy things were in July,
there was zero politics and none. It was people talking
about their love of the country, the history of the
Air Force, the the future of the Air Force, the
obligations of people who served in the Air Force. That
was what the discussion was about. And it Carlos, I
(20:12):
was in tears. I mean it was it was and
and to see like and you know, and for the
first time in history, in the middle of all the
George Floyd's stuff, you have an African American taking over
the Air Force. And it wasn't even an issue. They
weren't talking about. It wasn't something we're going to do
this to show the world. No, No, he was just
the best man for the job, right without any kind
(20:33):
of like fanfare. And I just it. I've said this
a bunch of times as I've been promoting this book
of mine. It just, I mean, it blew me away,
and I just it just restored my faith. Um, and
I have been optimistic ever since, really really hard. Oh.
I love it. And do you think you would have
sustained that optimism if President Trump had won a second term? Well, don't.
(21:01):
My eighty nine year old mom in Canada, who has
never lived in the United States, you know, Jamaican by Birthudy,
she would have been so angry Hick Trump. She would
have called me up and like, I mean, so I
think that might have that might have been. Um, I
don't know. That's a hard counter factual, but in July one,
we didn't know what was going to happen. That was
(21:24):
that was what I needed. I needed some reassurance that
this the institutions of this country still worked and they
do still work. Yeah, I think you did something special
over the last year, just to toot your horn for
a minute, which is while we're calling it a book,
I think more sumptuous than the written word is what
(21:44):
you've called an audio book, which I don't even know
that that fully does it justice. And it feels like
when you and I talked several years ago and you
were just beginning this podcasting journey and building this company
with Jacob called Pushkin, and and obviously bringing alive not
only revisionist history but other podcasts as well. It felt
like someone who finally was like bringing all of it together,
(22:05):
like bringing his left in and his right in and
putting it all together. Am I overstating what happened with
the bomber Mafia? And was there a purposeful intention? And
weaving together those different storytelling episodes. The idea was that
we want to use audio in a new way. I
normally audio because you's someone reading into a microphone. We
(22:26):
want to that seems crazy to us. You know, there's
all these I wanted to tell the story from the
Second World Boy, this insane story about that ends in
the bombing of Japan. And we have all of this tape,
archival tape. We have tape of the battles, we have
the sound of the engines, we have all these generals
in the Second World War, we have these hours and
(22:47):
hours and hours and we're talking. And the ideas we
could bring all that together, along with interviews of historians
in the present day looking back on this and create
an experience. Um and now I'm doing And that was
the idea that is, I'm quite unlike I will say
this immodestly, it is quite unlike any other audiobook you
will ever encounter. You can just you know, go get
(23:08):
it at you know, Bomber Mafia dot Com and like
it's it's wild. But now we're doing one on the
l A p D. We're gonna do one on the
history of American policing the same way. So I want
to get all of these voices. You know, are you
having Maxine on this? You know, oh man, oh man.
So Maxine, I've been chasing that. I mean, I am
(23:30):
obsessed with Maxine. But Maxine, So when you're interviewing Maxine,
listen to listen to the way she talks and say
to yourself, why would you ever do anything with Maxine
where you can't hear her? The whole thing about her
is her voice right everything here she is. She's this
(23:51):
indomitable She's like, I've forgotten her exactistory, but she's you know,
she's like a share cropper's daughter or something. She's she's
one of the one of the teen kids. When if
thirteen kids comes to l a self created puts herself through,
you know, starts out working as a seamstress in a
garment factory, you know, climbs the ladder. That woman is
(24:15):
like indomitable. She's like, you know, you have to hear her,
but you have to hear her. So she's part of
the story. By the way, you know who was who
was going after the l A p. D in the
nineteen sixties when no one else had the courage nineteen
Steve sixty and seventy. Maxine Waters was part of that band.
It was a small band of African Americans in that
(24:36):
city who took on the most powerful police force in
the country. She was front and center, and like, you
have to hear her to understand how did this she?
What does she five feet? I don't know she's if
she is she a hundred and five pounds, I've know it.
She's tiny, This tiny little woman from like the middle
of nowhere, who created herself takes on that in institution, right,
(25:01):
and that's a so like, that's what I want to capture.
I have to capture them. Well, you know what's powerful?
You know the phrase that when you talk to her
comes back over and over again, and she says it
sometimes in the most casual moments and she means it
with the depth that you're saying it. She'll say to me, Carlos,
I'm not new to this. Oh, she's not new to it.
(25:22):
And she means that across a whole series of things
that she's recognized the importance of it. She's recognized the ethic,
ethical compromises that we need to fix. She recognizes how
tough it's gonna be. And yet she's still here and
she's still fighting for it, and I really I appreciate that. Um.
(25:44):
See last thing about I went to visit her before,
like two or three years ago, and we were in
her district in substance, I've forgotten the exact neighborhood. Um,
it's next to Abwin Hills. Anyway, we're walking down the street,
you would have thought she is John the Baptist. People
were like running out of stores, they were grabbing their kids.
(26:05):
She was mobbed. We need to get in the car,
We need to we need to get back into her
car and drive two blocks just to safe from the crowds.
It was nuts. I've never seen anything like that. Is
there a single politician in this country outside of Barack
Obama who could, could not cannot walk down a Street
because she's getting mobbed by people who just want to
(26:26):
basically touch her. Right that it was it was mind
blowing alright. So not that I'm in charge of recommending
your next set of books or podcasts. But there's also
we're living in an interesting moment here, Malcolm, where once
upon a time, youth was prized, right JFK. Young President
forty three. Uh. Young CEOs have been a thing. Young athletes, olympians,
(26:50):
young musicians. There was a time when if you were
an actor a model past a certain age, opportunities kind
of started to dissipate. But we're living in a moment
with people like Fauci, Pelosi, Waters, um uh, Biden right,
um uh. You know, it's such an interesting moment here
whether we will end up recalibrating how we think about
(27:13):
age and how we think about seniority and wisdom because
we do have quite a set of interesting people in
their late seventies and eighties who are really absolutely critical
on the world stage, or at least certainly here in
the US. I worry a little bit about that. I
don't mind, you know, Matt, I love that Maxine has
(27:35):
been around forever. That's really important. Um, But if everyone
is in their eighties. You're not creating a new generation
of leaders. Like when I want to go back to that,
when I was in New Orleans talking to the guy
who runs Dillard, who is a guy named Walter Kimbra
Atlanta guy um who is as who is as intelligent
and charismatic and interesting and devoted UH leader as I
(27:59):
have met in a very long time. And after talking
to him, I was so impressed. But I said, Walter,
are you gonna run for office? And I don't think
it had occurred to him, um, And I think people
like him should that should occur to people like him.
I think he's fifty and he is a He would
be a fresh and important face on the same thing
(28:22):
as I was in Birmingham, a going as a guy
who the mayor of Birmingham, who's another young much younger
than Walter Kimbero even now, the young guy. He should
not be mayor of Birmingham his whole life. He should
be this. He should be a senator from Alabama and
he could win. I mean, he's another charismatic young African
American leader. Those guys, we have to create room for
(28:43):
those people. You cannot You can't like keep people. You've
gotta you gotta open up opportunities higher up that they
can so they can so the rest of us can
can can reap the value of the talent there. You know, Malcolm,
the time has gotten away from us too quickly. Uh,
it's crazy, but this happens to us every time. I
(29:04):
can't let you leave though without giving us thirty seconds,
which I know is not enough. But for those I've
obviously read bomb Ra Mafia, for those who haven't read,
would you give them thirty seconds just so they know
the magic that awaits. What's the story about. It's a
story about a small group of pilots in central Alabama
the nineteen thirties who think they can reinvent war and
(29:27):
have an idea that you can fight, you can wage
a war much more humanely, you can solve the great
moral dilemma of war. And there are these idealists who
take this idea into the Second World War and try
and try and reform war from the middle of that
intense conflict. And it's the story of what happens. And
it's a crazy story with like wild geniuses and crazy
(29:53):
scientists at Harvard and it's heartbreaking at the end what
happens because they bring this crusade right to the very
climax of the war, and they are not gonna tell
a story about I'm not gonna gonna but it's just
a kind of there are so many strange turns and
crazy characters and bloodthirsty generals and um, it's it's it's
(30:15):
not the whole thing is nuts. It's it's it's delicious, folks,
and you have to listen to it. Even though I
love Malcolm, don't read it. Get the audio. Get the
audio feast. I'm not gonna call it audio book. Get
the audio feast, because you managed to actually get their
voices down there, and it is crazy to hear you're
essentially reaching back in time almost a hundred years to
(30:38):
hear these people kind of code tell the story, which
is great, which I really I really enjoyed. It's really good.
So um hey, uh, Malcolm, thank you, and Grazia you
still remain You're like the Lou Garrig of of Oz.
You're like the only person who we've invited every year
year and you're out. I don't think we've ever had
anyone else come even two times. So thank you for
(31:01):
keeping the streak alive, my pleasure. Thank you, Carlos, goodness
you be saying okay. Thank you for listening me to
this episode of The Carlos Watson Show podcast. If you
(31:23):
enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review where ever
you listen to your podcast
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