Mary L. Trump

Carlos talks to American psychologist and author Mary L. Trump about her family dynamic and her new book, The Reckoning: Our Nation's Trauma and Finding a Way to Heal.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Mary L. Trump was born unto a well known family
tree in New York City. Former President Donald Trump is
Mary's paternal uncle. She has been outspoken and critical about
her uncle's political career. She gave the world an inside
view of the Trump family in her tell all book
Too Much and Never Enough, How My Family Created the
World's Most Dangerous Man. On this episode of the Carlos

(00:26):
Watson Show podcast, Mary L. Trump reflects on her family
dynamic and her new book, The Reckoning, Our Nation's Trauma
and Finding a Way to heal. Hey Mary, Hey, how
are you good. I'm sorry that we kept you so long.
Please don't worry about it. How's your Friday? It's okay?

(00:47):
Is it okay? Okay, okay okay. Spoken like a mom
that means you got mom stuff on your Mind's actually
I wish she's nineteen. She's off. Okay, okay, okay, okay.
Are you in New Yorker? Where are you? Yeah? I
just moved into the city from on. I was on

(01:07):
Long Island for a long time. Um, so I just
moved into soho whish I'm very happy about Yeah? And
how is it right now? Is it is it alive?
Or people out? And about or people conkered down again. Yeah,
you know, Um, we we've been handling it pretty well. Um,
the mask mandats, you're back, and um a lot of
places are requiring proof of vaccination, so we're rolling with it.

(01:31):
But we've we've done a pretty good job I think
of being safe. So it's okay. I mean I think
it's going to get worse unfortunately, unless we stop all
travel from Florida. We seanna, but you know, you know
that's good comedy. As you're talking to guy who's from Florida.

(01:52):
I know you don't know that you're not a guy
who's frough Florida. But people would be wise to not
let me in their states. That is true. I mean,
apple from Florida. We're a little bit crazy, as they said,
where they're telling people not to drink water because they
need the liquid oxygen to divert to hospitals because there's
so many COVID patients and yet mana Santis runs free. Well,

(02:16):
you know it is Uh, it's it's heartbreaking because I
I remember even I mean I remember some of the
desperation in the early days in New York, in New Jersey,
and I remember having a conversation with a woman who
ran a funeral parlor in New Jersey and she was
really seeing obviously the worst of it in those early days.
I think I talked to her last April and it

(02:37):
was it was a tough conversation. And then another difficult
conversation I ended up having was with friends and colleagues
who were in India. And I don't know if you remember,
but about three months ago, when it felt like we
were starting to get better, things were getting even more
desperate there and and um, and it was I mean,

(02:57):
it's heartbreaking when when anyone is in that scenario. But man,
you really you really heard that there. So I man, Mary,
I really want us to get to a better place.
I hope we do, but I think realistically you're probably
right that we uh, you know, we probably have a
ways to go well. And you know what's frustrating is
having been in New York last year when it was

(03:18):
so terrifying and we didn't really know anything and everybody
was getting sick and so many people were dying. That
it's to see states choosing that for themselves is, or
at least the politicians in the states choosing that is
is It's like it's a slap in the face on
the one hand, um, and on it since like nobody

(03:40):
seems to have learned a lesson. Um. But it's also
just the depths of the cruelty. Uh never ceased to
amaze me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did you when you were
going through the whole last couple of years, did you
ever think about running for office yourself? Yeah? Never? Why not? Why?
And I asked it in part because I said, when

(04:00):
I was watching you and when I was reading you
a real interest in policy as well, and policy and history,
and it struck me candily that we need more people
who have who bring a broader lens to some of
the questions that we're wrestling with. But you never, you
never gave it real thought. No, And I have been
getting asked that question, So I have been thinking about it. Um.

(04:22):
But you know, I'm never going to rule anything out,
because who knows what life is going to be like
in two, five, ten years. But first of all, I
live in New York, so politically there are plenty of
people with more experience than I do, or in the
same side as I am. Um. But right now anyway,

(04:43):
I think I'm I'm more useful on the outside and
I mean, I'd like to think that nothing would change
if I did run for something, but I like not
ever having to pull my punches. Uh, you know which
I think we need more of right now? Yeah, yeah,
more more more Truth Tellers, has your as your uncle?

(05:04):
When was the last time you talked to your uncle?
The last time I spoke to him was also the
last time I saw him. It was in April of
when I went to the White House for my aunt's
birthday party. And that was also the first time I'd
seen him in about nine years. So, uh, we've had
two encounters since. I'm sorry wrong, what year was two thousand? Sorry,

(05:30):
twenty years ago because the last so, the last time
I saw him before Ivanka's wedding in two thousand nine
was at a deposition because that's how my family, uh
spends time apparently suing each other and deposing each other
and so and so what's it like when you guys

(05:51):
see each other? I mean, I know now it's four
years ago, soon we'll be five, But like, do you hug,
do you kiss, do you say hello? Do you like
walk past? Lowly walked to the other side of the room,
like like put me in there? Um, you know, when
I was a kid, the the standard Trump greeting was
a handshake and a kiss on the cheek between men

(06:12):
and women and women and women, but with men it
was just a handshaked. So what was really interesting about
the last time I saw Donald is for the first
time in my life, he gave me a hug, which
is really quite something. Uh, not a physically affectionate family.
But he also lied to me. Um. The very first

(06:33):
thing he said when he saw me as I was
walking into the dining room was I specifically asked for
you to be invite shaped, which isn't true, but it was.
It was. It was sweet of him to think of
me after the fact, And so does any of his
um do any of his kids or any of those folks,

(06:54):
any of them stay in contact with you like no,
And I think I think it's it's not something I
should expect after the last four years. But what people
don't know is that they're much younger than I am.
Um My, It's like my grandparents had two different generations
of grandchildren. Uh. There were my older cousin, my brother

(07:18):
and I, and then twelve years later Donald's kids started
coming along. So I think the Vanka's sixteen years younger
than I am, so I didn't grow up with them
at all. And and so how do you when you
think about your uncle? Um? And I'm not trying to oversimplify,
but I'm genuinely curious. Do you think about him as

(07:40):
a hurt, damaged person. Do you think about him as
a bad evil person? Do you think of him as
a complicated person who shouldn't be in public office? Do
you think about him as a supremely talented person but who,
in your view, is used his talents for whatever combinational
reasons for ill? Like how do you and I say

(08:04):
that knowing that you thought deeply about this? But how
do you think about him now? And what would you
do if you were to see him tomorrow? Um? I,
he's definitely not complicated, uh, And I don't. I think
his talents, such as they are, are completely um accidents

(08:24):
of birth. Like he's good at things like, um, cheating.
You know, he doesn't have what you or I would
consider real marketable skills necessarily. Um. He's also quite good
at finding people's weaknesses, at finding people weaker than he
is and explaining them. But again, you know it's not

(08:47):
he's not particularly intelligent. He's not educated, he doesn't understand policy. UM,
he's just sort of instinctive about certain things. UM. I
consider him. The first two choices you gave me, UM,
were damaged and bad, and I think he's both of

(09:08):
those things. UM. I think I have, especially when I
was writing the first book and I was thinking about
my family in a way I never really had before,
because I needed to help people understand what had gone
on and formulated in a way that was accessible to people. UM.

(09:31):
I actually had a great deal of compassion for the
child he was, but he's an adult human being now,
and there are plenty of people on the planet who
had much worse childhoods than he had, who still ended
up being empathetic, kind, generous human beings. And he's none
of those things. So that's entirely his responsibility. UM. And

(09:54):
if if I were to see him, um, and you know,
I think he would see me if if he felt like,
you know, we did something on TV and it could
get ratings, he probably would because that's all that matters
to him. But you know, it's funny when I nothing

(10:17):
I say would matter, you know. And in other words,
if I if I tried to have a real conversation
with him about what is going on and how the
situation he's put himself in is negatively impacting him. He
it would go over his head and he would get
bored and not pay any attention at all. Um So

(10:41):
I'm afraid if I saw him, I would be tempted
to provoke him, which one would be really easy, and
to is not something I want to do, you know,
so I think it's safe to say it won't be
happening anyway. Can I push you a little bit? Would
you forgive me if I push you just a little bit?

(11:03):
Go ahead? Or what if I said to you this?
What if I said to you? Look, becoming president United
States is a super hard thing. You have to have
a ton of talents, and cheating by itself probably isn't enough,
and you probably have to have prodigious talents, not necessarily,
but probably you probably do have to have meaningful talents.
And that it is easy for people to caricature him

(11:27):
as instinctive or the saide or the other. And I'm
still prepared to say that what President Obama said, which
is that he's not thoughtful enough about policies, not diligent enough, about,
isn't it. But that just because he doesn't go about
it the way Obama does, I doubt that he's not
thoughtful about some of these choices that he has to

(11:47):
make on the economy, or had to make on the economy,
on defense, on some of these other things. And that
I think people and particularly people on the left, made
too quickly caricature the president Trump W. Richard Nixon, et cetera,
which I always think is dangerous because I think if
you do that, then you, you know, to paraphrase W,

(12:09):
you misunderestimate people. I think that that's not good. And
so I think that for a variety of reasons, it's
probably important, even if we say that that person is
bad or those aren't good choices, or what have you
to too, to try and look in the eye as
to what happened. How do you hear that? How do
you hear me saying? One, I do assume to make

(12:32):
it to the presidency, there's gotta be some meaningful set
of talent, probably not definitely, but probably And and and
that number two that I think that people can get
into too comfortable a caricature place on Trump, in particular,
because there's a lot of reason to go there, Right,
I'm not saying for no reason. I'm saying for real reason,

(12:54):
but that there's a risk that you could misunderestimate him
if you do that and twenty four thousand votes different
and we could be having like a very different conversation,
which which would you and I both agree would not
be the conversation we'd want to have, right, Yeah, we
probably wouldn't be having a conversation because I would have
left the country and being hiding right now. Um, listen,

(13:17):
it's hard for me to give him credit for anything
because I think he's so awful. But I agree with you.
I'm not saying that that we should underestimate him. Um.
I don't think he's thoughtful. He's not. He is not
a thoughtful person. He's the least intellectually curious person I've
ever met. But that's that's a separate issue. He was

(13:38):
surrounded by plenty of people who were telling him what
they thought he should do, so you know that's a
talent so to speak as well. Right, Um, I think
it is completely fair to say that he is somebody
who has charisma. Um, you know he that what he's

(14:00):
said to me. For example, I specifically that was one
to make me feel better and feel uh well disposed
towards him. It was a way to kind of co
opt me. Right. Um, I don't find his charisma appealing,
but plenty of other people do, and he did tap
into something. Now, the problem is his skill set, his

(14:24):
talents happened to be recognizing to the extent that he did, Um,
the anger and the willingness of people either to overlook
or embrace what I think are the among the worst
things about him. His racism, his misogyny, his anti immigrant bias,

(14:46):
his willingness to um make people afraid and transform their
fear into rage. So yeah, that plus the perfect storm
that need it to happen, um in order to push
him over the finish line. So why do you think
he won? And again came within forty four thousand votes

(15:10):
of winning again, So Americans took a good, long, hard
look at him and forty four thousand votes, which are
fewer people than probably live in soho um, and we
would be having a very different conversation. So so why
do you think he he won both the first time
but also the second time record turnout over hundred sixty

(15:30):
million people voted, and but for forty four thousand votes,
he would be in his second term right now. Well,
the first thing I think when you say that is
we have to get rid of the electrical college, because
it's it is crazy that, uh, a forty four thousand
votes swing would have completely erased the votes of eight

(15:52):
million people. It and it was three million people last
time around in seventy thousand votes, which is criminal and
not it's not a democracy when that happens, um. But
the fact that so many people voted from the second
time around is really heartbreaking. I thought sixty two million

(16:15):
was terrible, um in and that almost broke me. But again,
as you say, the fact that after four years of
lying and cruelty and racism and misogyny, anti semotism and
apparently being pro domestic terrorism, and then on top and

(16:38):
being in peach twice clearly trying to steal an election. Um.
And you know, by by the time of the election,
three thousand Americans were dead and most of those deaths
were directly his responsibility. So um, it's you know, I've

(16:58):
been grappling with us and trying really hard to figure
out what what that's about. And I think, you know,
first thing, we need to do is step back and
realize that the Republican Party, just like any other party,
is not monolithic. You know, Um, we've got the twenty
two of them who are the worst among us. Um,

(17:20):
the proud Boys and the oath keepers and the three
per centers, um, the people at the capital who were
waiving the Confederate flag and wearing camp Outschwitz shirts. Um.
But the problem is, like I think one of the
purposes of liberal democracy is to contain these people from

(17:42):
their interests. Were essentially represented by a percent of the
federal government. Um. And not only that, but the men
in the Oval office share their beliefs and championed them.
So like that disease, I think metastasized. And one of
the worst things that's happened is not only that Donald

(18:03):
ran both times as an openly racist person and openly
misogynistic person, etcetera, etcetera, but he he was rewarded for it.
And um, that's that's going to be very difficult to reverse. Then,
you know, on the other end of the spectrum, there
are people who were just knee jerk Republicans. It you

(18:24):
were more likely to get divorced in this country than
you are to change political parties, and then in the
middle we kind of have well we always have one
issue voters and I don't know that there's anything we
can do about them. But then we have a lot
of people in this country who have authoritarian personalities, and
that that means not that they're authoritarians, but that they
they're followers. They like homogeneity, they don't like change, and

(18:48):
they like being um in the US versus them. Now,
that doesn't again, that doesn't mean that there um that
they can't be swayed. It just means that we need
to change the terms. Donald again is really good. It's
staking division and creating chaos. And during COVID, when we

(19:11):
all should have been united, he made the US Donald
Trump supporters and the them Democrats, people of color, people
in blue states. And if we had a sane, empathetic
person in office, the US would have been America and
they would have been the coronavirus. Do do you um,

(19:35):
what would you do today if you passed him on
the street? What do you think you do? I don't
want to get myself in trouble. Get yourself in troubles
with the shows for trouble. Uh you know, I I
feel so much rage towards him. Um that I'm not
entirely sure what I would do. Um, I would do

(19:59):
my best. It's not to make it a physical confrontation,
but um, again I think he makes me want to
provoke him and um insult him, and I don't want
to be that person. But again, he is responsible for
so much damage and so much unnecessary death, and he

(20:19):
keeps getting away with it. So I try really hard
to remember that in some ways, he's not the problem.
The problem is those in power who keep enabling him
and keeping him legitimate and not holding him accountable. Um.
But I would be really hard pressed not to not
to tell him that I think he's just a total
failure and loser. And you know, if I called a

(20:43):
criminal or a murderer, he would take that as a compliment.
So I would have to uh keep it. You know,
I'd have to remind him just how badly he got
humiliated by Joe Biden and things like that. But it
wouldn't be a constructive conversation. Um. You girl, of how
close are you to her? What do you think of her?

(21:03):
What's your take? We've never been close, As I said,
she's sixteen years younger. She was born a month or
two after my dad died, So I wasn't really in
a place a good place for the first few years
of her life, and I really only ever saw them
on major holidays. It was very different. We know, when
I grew up, my brother, cousin and I we were

(21:25):
at my grandparents halls all the time, and my aunts
and uncles were there frequently. My dad my grandparents, So
it was a very very different thing when they were
growing up. You know, I'd see them Thanksgiving, Christmas, maybe
Mother's Day, maybe Easter. Um. So you know, I don't
have an opinion of her based on family connection at all,

(21:46):
but from what I've seen, um, she seems to be
somebody with no real convictions. She seems to have very little,
if any self awareness. And I don't know if you've noticed,
but they, she and her husband seemed to have dropped
out of sight. And I wouldn't be surprised at all

(22:08):
if they were just thinking, you know, we'll lay low
and then everybody will forget about all the horrible things
we did and we can just re emerge and be
accepted into New York's high society again. Um. But I
have no respect for her or any of them. Quite honestly, Um,
I think that they are unscrupulous and um, you know,

(22:35):
or just incapable of standing up on the right side
of any issue. Mary, What's You've had one of life's

(23:00):
really special sets of opportunities, which is to write a
book that so many people have read and enjoyed and
trusted and counted on. And then on top of that,
you've had a chance to get to talk about it
with like a wide array of people. And so it's
even a richer experience in my mind, because so often
we labor on something but then really it's just us
and a few friends. But your work has been important

(23:23):
enough that you've actually been in conversation about it, probably
thought about it. I would have been kind of the
two or three most interesting things you've learned through this
whole process, whether it had to do with writing the
book itself or any of the conversations you've had or
quiet thoughts or reactions people. But like, if you were
going to go back and talk to younger Mary, what
would you tell her? What are the two or three

(23:44):
most interesting things that you've either observed, experienced, or learned
during the last couple of years. Um, And you're right,
I'm so lucky. It's it's been incredibly gratifying. And um,
you know, people sometimes ask me, how was your life changes? Yeah,
answer to that is, well, COVID, so it hasn't. And
so it like I'm still sitting in my living room

(24:05):
talking to people. But that having been said, um, the
response to the book was something I could never have
anticipated and probably the thing I'm most proud of. Um well,
I you know, because again I don't know how much
it impacted people's thoughts about the election, so since I

(24:25):
can't really quantify that, um that one of the things
I'm most proud of is the extent to which people
felt recognized and seen and saw themselves or their family
in the book, and that it helped them understand their
own family dynamics. It helped them, um, grapple with some

(24:45):
of the difficulties they've faced in their lives because they
have relatives who've had similar psychiatric disorders or whatever. Um
that was. That's been incredible beyond that, you know, especially
given the fact that we're all trapped in our houses. Yes,
I'm sure it would have been more fun to be

(25:06):
flying around the world, but I still have gotten to
have conversations like this with people I never would have
met before. Um, you know, and that's that's actually helped me,
I think, get better at um broadening my horizons and

(25:28):
being more disciplined about how I think about things and
talk about things, and be more just open minded because
you know, when when you're writing a book, it's a
very isolating experience. And then you know, I've I've been
cut off from everything since since November because that election

(25:51):
really undid me, um, you know, and then COVID of course,
so UM, that's been in that's been incredible, And I
think finally it's just having continuing to have the opportunity.
I mean, the book came out, My first book came
out in July, and you know, people still wanted to

(26:13):
get my take on things after the election, after the insurrection,
after the inauguration, and you know, even before the second
book came out. So that's that's. UM. I found that
really moving. Who of all the folks you've gotten a
chance to talk to, who's been the most interesting for
whatever combination of reasons other than you great answer? Well,

(26:39):
you know you're awesome. Um. You know, there there's I
can't remember her last name. I feel terrible out. There's
a journalist in Sydney, Australia. Her first name is fran
I've I've been interviewed by her a couple of times,
and she also invited me to um um meeting of

(27:00):
a literary society down there, obviously via zoom um. She
was extraordinary to be interviewed by, and really unexpectedly, very
near the beginning UM of the first the publication of
the first book, I was asked by a Green Piece
to do an interview for what they call Fire Drill

(27:23):
Fridays UH with Jane Fonda, and it was she was
an incredibly good interviewer UM, and just a genuine, genuine person,
a genuinely interested person and a genuinely committed person to
the cause of combating catastrophic climate change. So so that

(27:47):
was that was really nice surprise, UM, you know, because
it's impossible to know how people you have a preconceived
notion of are going to be, So that that was
really nice, you know. I am I am thrilled to
hear you say that about Jane Fonda, and not surprised
because as you say that, I think she's a person
of great depth and I think about you know, coming

(28:09):
alive herself in a really interesting she would probably argue
dysfunctional family before you wrote your book. You know, arguably
her movie on Golden Pond was her version of trying
to reckon with a you know, a talented but dysfunctional family.
And you know, and I think about all the kind

(28:30):
of travels that kind of went through that and so
and she was married obviously to a politician, political leader
for a long time, so she probably brought a lot
of and and even you know, um Ted Turner who
she was married to, you know, probably there were things
about him and his approach to the world that she
could probably draw on as uh as she thought about that.

(28:53):
So yeah, I'm not I'm really glad to hear that.
And it makes me think that we need her in
the arena more because she had such breadth and depth,
um that that she would be interesting talking about almost
almost anything. Um, Mary, what do you think happens to
your uncle from here? Do you think that? I mean,
the other thing I'm struck by is that he's older,

(29:15):
And I'm by the way, I'm struck by that as
it relates to President Biden as well. Um and um,
you know what what what's your thought, What do you
think happens from here to UH to to former President Trump.
You know, there there are a lot of variables, a
lot of moving parts. At the moment, uh As you say,
he's older and he's in less good shape than President Biden,

(29:41):
for sure, So I think that's gonna take more of
a toll as the years passed. UM. He's involved at
the moment and at least three major lawsuits, one of
which is mine UM, and at least three criminal investigations.

(30:03):
So there's a possibility that he's going to be too
busy defending himself in court or too busy giving depositions
to stay engaged politically. However, that not the case. What
I'm deeply concerned about right now is the direction the

(30:25):
Republican Party seems to be going in. UM. They have
had so many opportunities to take the off wrap away
from Donald Trump, and they have never ever done it.
So they're all in with him now. So not only
have they backed the big lie that the election was

(30:47):
somehow stolen from him, which of course it wasn't, but
now they're backing his second big lie, which is that
the insurrection wasn't a big deal. Or it was some
deep state plot against them or whatever nonsense there's you
doing in any given moment. So between that, um and
the fact that he doesn't seem to be paying any

(31:08):
price for having incited an armed interaction against his own government,
and all of these very alarming voter suppression laws bill sorry,
that are being pushed through state legislatures, I'm really worried
that they might have the opportunity to rig the system
even more in their favor. So if Donald did decide

(31:29):
to run, he actually wouldn't lose because it was a
foregone conclusion. And that's terrifying. Do you what what do
folks say to you on the street when you meet
supporters of of of your uncle? Do they come up
to you on the street, and if so, what, if anything,
do they say to you. There's a reason I'm always

(31:51):
wearing two masks and sunglasses, honestly, though, I live in
New York City, so and I don't go to Stab Island.
So I just came from Long Island, which is why
another reason I never left my house. But um, on
those very few occasions people have recognized me because you know,

(32:13):
I took my mask off for a second or something. Um,
it's been fine. I literally can't remember the last time,
Um I I saw I had a conversation with somebody
who supported Donald And I think part of that is
because it's it's a very different environment now, you know.
In two sixteen, I had plenty of Republican friends who

(32:36):
voted for him, and yeah, I mean it hurt my
feelings quite honestly, because they knew the role he played
in my life. Um, But it was a political decision
for them and it wasn't any of my business. Um.
But now we can't pretend that we don't know what
his character is. So people who still support him or

(32:59):
people I honestly don't want to be around, and that's
that's also dangerous. It's just, you know, because how do
we heal the massive divide between us when we're so
polarized and neither side is willing to give an inch? Mary,
go back for me a little bit and tell me
about growing up. Where did you grow up? I grew
up in Jamaica, Queens, um, which it was about a

(33:23):
ten minute bike ride from my grandparents house, which was
in Jamaica States. Um. Jamaican Jamaica States were about as
different as two places could be. Jamaica States was like
I think back then, a hundred percent white. Um, a
dent Christian and very upper middle class. Um. You know,
my grandparents lived in a mansion. I grew up in

(33:45):
an apartment building in Jamaica in the seventies and eighties,
and at the time it was I don't know, probably
seventy black and thirty percent white. And over time, you know,
different populations came in, mostly from Asia, so I got
a little bit more diverse. So you know, I I

(34:06):
took the subway to school every day and and I
felt right at home there. And I never quite understood
why my family was so a racist. On the other hand, though,
as as diverse in some ways as Jamaica was, it
also was segregated. I mean you could you know, there
was a line drawn east to west, and all the

(34:28):
white people lived on the north and all the black
people lived in South Jamaica. But you know, those are
the places I shopped in and that's where I went
and got my Jamaican beef patties after school and before
I was a vegetarian. And um, I loved it and
I found it really grounding. And it again, I never

(34:48):
understood why pretty much all the white people I grew
up around were racist. So um. And I also never
really understood U the whole money thing either, you know, um,
we because Jamaica was you know, working class, middle class

(35:09):
ish um. So that was another really stark contrast between
the two places. And did you have money growing up?
Did your family have money? You know, it's weird. Um.
I wanted for nothing. I went to private schools, I
went to a sailing camp. You can't get much wasp
fear than that on Cape God. Um. But you know,

(35:34):
my we lived in one of my grandfather's buildings, which
was not in particularly good shape. Uh. You know, it
was in it was nice. The surrounding area was nice.
It was across you from the park, but you know,
the walls were crumbling and stuff like that. We could
never get anything fixed. And my mother, I didn't know
this at the time, of course, but it was given

(35:56):
very very little money. I think she had about six
a month with which to buy our clothes and and
um buy food. Um. And that amount didn't change. And yes,
we weren't paying rent, well, we weren't paying a lot
of rent. We did have to pay rent, which is
fascinating because as I later found out, I actually owned

(36:18):
owned ten percent of the building I lived in, but
we still had to pay my grandfather rant um. So
she didn't have a lot of money. And again it
was this very strange tension between having this extraordinarily wealth
wealthy family on the one hand, for who money meant everything,

(36:42):
and having a mom who had to keep a running
tally of the fives and the tens she took out
of the envelope of cash that she used for our necessities. Um.
So you know, like we couldn't go on vacation without
getting permission and that kind of thing. So it was
a very very uh weird I mean, it wasn't weird

(37:03):
at the time, I guess, but looking back, it's just insane.
Your dad was not in the house. No, they he
left when I was two and a half. I think
they got divorced when I was five. Um, but you know,
we we spent time with him. He lived. He lived
in Sunnyside, Queens, which wasn't too far away, also on

(37:25):
one of my grandfather's buildings. And you know the problem
was that he was an alcoholic and he was in
really bad shape. And also this was back in the
sixties and seventies, so Dad's didn't get custody, they got visitation.
So even though it's it's probably fine that we didn't

(37:46):
spend more time with him, we only got to see
him every other weekend and one night a week or
something like that. And and so Mary, take me into
this a little bit. I mean, you have a grandfather
and grandmother who have lots of money, and the name
by that point probably is famous, at least in New York.
And like, where does this put a young girl? Does

(38:11):
it make you proud and confident? Does it make you
frustrated that I'm not living in a mansion. I don't know.
I don't want to project anything. I'm genuinely curious. Where
does it? Where does it put young Mary? I didn't
have an impact, honestly, partially because my grandfather had been

(38:31):
a known quantity in Brooklyn and Queen's well before my
my existence. Um, so everybody knew him. He was on
the board of trustees at my school, so everybody knew it.
So it was a given, you know. Um, I guess
it's sort of a similar situation that my daughter's had.
Um she went. We lived in the same town from

(38:54):
the time she was born to the time she went
to college, so it wasn't a big deal. Like everybody
knew who she was and who she was related to,
and it was the same thing for me. Um. And
when I was somewhere where people didn't know so much,
I never talked about it. Um And when Donald started
to be getting known outside of New York and anybody

(39:15):
asked me if I were related, I just said no
because it was easier. Oh interesting, They just let it drop. Yeah. Well,
the the response would usually be something like, oh, I
bet you wish you were no, but okay, oh so interesting.
And then this will sound like a completely wild thing.

(39:36):
But I've had this conversation about cultural differences sometimes around money,
and I know that everything I'm saying is a little
bit of a stereotype in generalization, But growing up in
the family, I did like I can't have money by myself,
Like if I have something that all my sisters and
my family have it. In fact, even as I became

(39:56):
a young professional, any money I made you, my mom
always said. My mom and dad always had access to
my account, and so at various points you would tell me,
you know, we're sending so and so to summer school.
You know, we're sending so and so and so it
was you know, um, and that's just part of it.
But you can't have stuff on your own and then
folks are over there. Like what you described, I couldn't do.

(40:18):
I couldn't live in a mansion and then have family
over there. That would uh. But you're saying that was
never actually discussed about. Is there a different way to do?
And so I'm probably spending more time on this because
it is as you're making me think about it, and
you're making me think, could I be ten minutes away

(40:41):
from a family member but have meaningfully different sets of circumstances.
I don't think I could. Well, I mean, it's my
family is a complete opposite of your family, because it's
it isn't just that you know, we were the relatives
from the wrong side of the tracks, even though by

(41:01):
the way, you know, I was a grandchild, I wasn't
a third cousin um, and my dad was the oldest
son UM. So it's that they created this My grandfather particular,
created this myth that Donald was the success and he

(41:22):
was this brilliant businessman who had become fabulously wealthy all
by himself while my dad was living in Sunnyside, Queens Like,
like he was impoverished. I mean, he had second hand
cars and he you know, he just didn't have money.

(41:43):
And what the thing I didn't know at the time
but learned later which made me extraordinarily angry, is that
it was all smoke and mirrors. Every cent Donald had
was from my grandfather. So he's living this incredibly extravagant
lifestyle while my dad is living in this If you

(42:06):
had seen his apartment, in his apartment building, you would
think that he was poor. Um, you know, and he
had nothing left. He used to have boats and planes.
He had to sell everything. Um. He wasn't working for
my grandfather anymore because my grandfather had essentially made my

(42:27):
father irrelevant in the business and promoted Donald over him,
even though Donald was eight years younger and had no experience.
So um. And to make all of that worse, the
really quite horrible building my dad lived in, Um, he
owned twenty percent of it and at the time his
share in it was worth hundreds of thousands, maybe like

(42:51):
two million dollars or something, and he didn't have access
to any of it. Meanwhile, you know, Donald's got chauffeur
driven limousines and is hanging out at the club and
you know, jetting around on private jets. It's just it
was despicable. So again, it's not like, you know, one
part of the family earned all of this money and

(43:11):
the rest of us just kind of were terrible at
making money. So why should they share? Because it's there.
It's that my grandfather just decided that he was only
going to put his money in one place and the
rest of us can just you know, fend for ourselves.
And say more about your grandfather. Was he quiet guy,
loud guy, good guy, UM, tough guy, great businessman, hockey fan? Like?

(43:36):
Who was he? Give me a picture of who Fred
Trump was? The most fundamental thing to know about my
grandfather is that he was a sociopath. Um. He had
I don't think love is something he ever experienced. UM,
and it certainly didn't have any use for UM. If
you met him, you would think, oh, he's a perfectly

(43:57):
a cheerful person. Why shouldn't he be like every thing
always broke his way. Um, But you know, no real
depth of human feeling. He had no hobbies. Everything was
his business. Everything was making more money. And and then
eventually Donald, I guess became his hobby, you know, promoting
Donald and making sure Donald had all the fame and success. Um,

(44:19):
but he was you know, really limited And was he
a good businessman. Yeah. When he died, his estate was
worth something like a billion dollars, so clearly he had
had some success. But the other thing that's really important
to remember about him too is that he was the
recipient of huge amounts of government funded because when he

(44:41):
started building, it was in you know, post war America,
so there were Federal Housing Authority grants being given. My
grandfather was very closely connected to the Brooklyn Democratic Party,
so he had people making sure that money was getting
funneled his way for his project. So, you know, I
think it would have been successful no matter what, because

(45:03):
he was a very hard working person. But um, he
had huge amounts of help and from the government. And
one of in my mind, the worst things about him, um,
from a business perspective. From a human perspective, the worst
thing about him is that he basically destroyed all five
of his children. But from a human perspective, sorry, business perspective,

(45:25):
it's that despite all of that government largess, he hated
paying taxes. And did everything in his power not to well.
And so years later you say that you were the
source behind, uh getting the tax returns out there that
showed that former President Trump had effectively paid little or

(45:47):
no taxes for most of the last decade plus? Is
that right? Um? I? Actually, I think the piece I
was involved with was more about the fact that, um,
over the course of his lifetime, my grandfather had gifted
Donald like four hundred and ten million dollars. So it

(46:08):
was to debunk all of the myths Donald had told
about himself that he was some self made man, which
of course he wasn't. He was a millionaire by the
time he was too. Um. So uh that. Plus, the
other thing that extraordinary team did Suzanne Craig and Russ
Putner at The New York Times was show how they

(46:30):
had created the shell corporation that essentially bled funds out
of my grandfather's business, so that when my grandfather died,
the size of his company had been drunk, so that
they really didn't pay any estate taxes. So the business
was really worth a billion, but on paper it was

(46:51):
they said it was worth fifty million, So they essentially
got out of paying almost half a billion dollars in taxes. Wow?
Wow do you um? Um? Uh, that's so so when
you think about all of this, what does this say
to you that if you were right and your your

(47:12):
uncle is has committed crimes or at least committed things
that prosecutors should be looking at really closely and has
done so for decades, but it's never been in jail.
And as you said, when it comes even something like
the insurrection doesn't seem to be anywhere close to uh
you know, being held you know, culpable or having any

(47:34):
meaningful uh penalty for that. What does that say to you?
And if your other folks everyday people watching that, what
does that say to you that you know that nothing's happened.
I don't. I don't think it's a surprise to too
many people in this country that there really is no
justice or at the best, it's a two tiered system

(47:59):
of justice. Um. And if you're rich, connected and white
and male, probably um, you can do things with impunity.
There was literally no reason for New York not to
look into what Donald was doing in the seventies, eighties,

(48:19):
and nineties. Um. You know, he wasn't in the Oval office.
There was no protection there there was no m O
l C memo. UM. So the only thing you can
say is that you know the system is quite obviously rigged,
and the idea that you know, people like my grandfather

(48:43):
UM and allegedly my aunts and uncles have stolen hundreds
of millions of dollars from the federal government even though
Donald was allowed to be in the Oval office and
my aunt was a federal judge, UM suffer no penalties whatsoever,
and we have UM people still, I think, still serving

(49:07):
jail sentences for pot possession. I mean, it's just extraordinary
how we prioritize one kind of crime over another, even
though I think white color crime is UM the probably
the most the the nonviolent crime that has the biggest

(49:29):
negative impact UM on our culture. Mary, tell me about
your new book. What made you do the second book?
Was it? Uh? The first one was such a good
experience because you know, a lot of people have trouble
during the second book. The first book is hard enough,
but I've had lots of people tell me. Obviously are
lots of famous examples Harperly included about how difficult it

(49:52):
can be to follow up such a successful UH debut
effort with with the second one. Yeah, well, I think
it's mostly just because there's something really wrong with me,
because I really, I really probably needed a break. But um,
you know, back in I think I was. I started
thinking of it back in September and October, and we

(50:14):
were in such trouble. We're in our second wave of COVID.
It became it had become, um startlingly obvious that Donald
and his administration not only weren't going to do anything
to help people with COVID, they were actively trying to
make things worse. And of course we were on the
brink of the election and there was no way to know.

(50:37):
Despite everything he'd done, we still weren't sure if Biden
was going to win. So initially I wanted to look at, Okay,
what kind of horrific mental health crisis are we going
to be looking at when we emerge from COVID, if
we ever do. And then I realized it's hard to
do that effectively because we're we all have experiencing it differently,

(51:01):
we will all have very different actions to it. So um,
I wanted instead to try to figure out how we
got to this place in our history where we are
so susceptible. Two incompetent, cruel leaders like Donald You know
why so many of us are perfectly happy aligning ourselves

(51:26):
with a political party that quite frankly is is fascist
at this point, Um, what in our past has led
us to this moment where we are seriously on the
brank of losing American democracy? And I say that with
an asterisk. You know, American democracy to the extent that

(51:46):
it's ever existed, right, So, UM, I I felt like
trying to figure out that UM might get us to
a place where we could face some hard truths and
maybe hopefully heal from there, because you know, I have PTSD.
If you're somebody who suffered from trauma, you don't well,

(52:11):
I don't know if you're never cured, right, But you
don't learn how to mitigate the effects of it unless
you face what happened to you, which is a really
difficult thing to do, and we need to do that
as a country. We need to we need to face
squarely the fact that since this country's inception, two things
have kept us from realizing our potential. One is our failure,

(52:35):
time after time after time to hold powerful wavemen accountable,
and the other is that white supremacy has been um,
something that has run through the course of our history
and is now currently actually one of the platforms of
one of our two major political parties. So you know,

(52:56):
people run around saying we're not a racist country, or
you know, the South paid the price. They don't. That's
just historic literacy. And I'm not entirely sure when it
became okay for adult human beings not to take responsibility
for their actions. Um, and that seems to be where

(53:16):
we are. So I'm I thought it was important to
be really honest about where we came from and where
we are. And um, I hope that people are willing
to um take that message in without getting defensive. Mary,

(53:55):
what do do you ever see the Eddie Murphy skit
on Saturday Night Live? And were you ever Saturday Night
Live viewer at any point a long time ago? So
Eddie Murphy had this amazing and many amazing skitch, but
one of them was he was like, as a black guy,
I want to see what happens when white people are
alone and when there's no one there, And so he
dresses up as a white guy and he goes on

(54:17):
the bus and the one the two black people get
off the bus and then all of a sudden, as
soon as two black people get off the bus, you know,
a party breaks out. People started getting out. Good he's
and then you know, he gets to the bank and
you know, black guys asking him questions as a loan officer,
you know, what job do you have? What assets do
you have? And then all of sudden, white guy comes

(54:37):
and taps him on the shoulders, sorry about him. How
much do you need? We'll just give you the money,
And so it continues on there. You know, he goes
into the store, he goes to pay for the newspaper,
and the white guy goes, there's no one black around,
why are you paying? Like we just give stuff. And
so it's a whole thing. But it was a very
funny skip, but obviously, like a lot of comedy, you know,

(54:58):
it had a strong they're deeper point that it was
trying to make. Yeah, and so to the extent you
have been and I realized COVID has changed everything for
all of us. But to the extent you've had some
version of the white supremacy conversation around up in all
white settings, what has been the reaction. Do you find

(55:19):
people engage, you find people just turn their heads and
start talking about something else. Do you find people disagree
with you? And obviously, to some extent, I'm particularly interested
in people who not people who would consider themselves white
and super left, but I'm I'm also interested in people
who might call themselves middle of the road or or conservative,

(55:40):
because I won't ever get to be in those rooms
and in that skin and see that, And so I'm
almost asking you it's kind of the Datokeville of this situation,
like like like take me in there on your back,
like like what would I hear? What would I see?
Like does this conversation even happen when it's when when
it's an all white gathering. Well, you know, um, I

(56:04):
have a very limited uh kind of circle, I guess
because the people I'm friends with, our people who totally
get it and are willing, you know, the white people,
And I am most I'm talking about white people from
a white person's perspective because that's my perspective and it
would be wrong to do anything else. And I'm very

(56:28):
clear about that in the book, because um, you know,
white people quite frankly are the problem in this particular instance. So, um,
you know, among my friends, they totally get it. And
are completely on the same page and are willing to
do the work and and um be honest about where
they are and what they need to make better. UM.

(56:51):
And you know, there seems probably because of the first
book and and and how clear I've been about where
I'm coming from. Um, the people who are interviewing me
now are also people who tend to be UM, you know, allies,
or at least it's friendly territory. What's interesting is, you know,

(57:14):
there there haven't been a lot of reviews yet, but
two that I've read. We're both written by old white
guys who were both quite defensive um and not open
to what I was saying. So, you know, which is
a shame because I think again it we get nowhere

(57:40):
if we're not willing to be honest and take a
hard look at where how we got where we are.
And the thing about that a lot of people don't
seem to understand white people is that by denying the past,
you own it, whereas they think that if you acknowledge

(58:00):
it somehow, it makes you responsible for it. And the
truth is denying it makes you responsible for it because
you're just perpetuating the problem. Yeah, it is, um, Mary
I'm you know, I'm son of teachers, son of optimists.
I'm really hoping that we are in a new space,
in a new time and in a different place, and

(58:21):
in which we will have not just conversations but actually change. Change.
It allows people to live healthier lives, better lives. And
you know, a lot of that is around race, but
not only around mental health. Saying that, knowing that I'm
talking to a mental health professional, you know, it's it's
around a whole suite. You know, you talk about compassion

(58:42):
and empathy. I think it's around that as well. And uh,
and so I'm hopeful that we will get there, but
we'll but we'll see. Mary, do you mind as we
wrap up if I do a little rapid fire with you?
Can I can I throw a couple of different things
out at you? Of course? Um, what's your favorite movie
of all time? Hard? Uh? Can I pick two? Lawrence

(59:04):
of Arabia and Alien? Oh? Interesting? You went from Sigourney
Weaver to uh to your boy? Um? Yeah, yeah, oh
you a Peter oal tool. I love that? Okay. Um
your karaoke song, Mary and Carlos are singing karaoke? What
are you singing? And I want to what are you singing? Uh? Wow,

(59:24):
that's like unimaginable to me. Um, karaoke song something by
the Who? For sure? Very nice? Okay, very nice. I
like that. I'm I'm bringing you the Douvil went down
to Georgia. I think at least today, I am. I
might bring you something different on a on a different day.
I'm there, I'm totally there. Yeah. The most interesting person

(59:48):
you've ever met totally your decision, whatever definition you want
to use, but the most interesting person you've ever met.
M Um. You know again, haven't met many people in
person this year, but David Rothkoff of Deep State Radio
is really a fascinating guy. Interesting. Um. If I gave
you the do over button in life, and I gave

(01:00:09):
you one do over, what would you use it on? Um?
I wow? I would have got my PhD in English
literature and started writing novels. Oh what kind of novels? Um? Well,
my two favorite, well not just two favorite that the
two greatest American writers are William Faulkner and Tony Morrison.

(01:00:32):
So that's kind of my That's what I like. Oh,
I like I like it. You go from Ohio down south,
from Ohio to Mississippi. If I remember correctly, I think
Tony Morrison was the daughter of Ohio and I think
Faulkner was a Mississippian. So, um, so you get some
good stuff in there. Um. Uh. Most interesting thing you've
ever learned about parenting? I know you've got a beautiful,

(01:00:54):
wonderful nineteen year old. What's the most interesting thing you've
ever learned about parenting? That it's all about them? And
um also just that it's the best thing that could
ever happen to anybody who wants children. Obviously, the most
interesting thing you've learned in this life about love? It's hard.

(01:01:14):
It is, it is, it is, it is, it is,
it is, it is. I like that. I like that
part of it too. That's good. I like I like
all that. I like all that too. Um. When it
comes to dreaming fearlessly, you know so many of us
want to dream big dreams, but you know it's not easy.
It's not also not easy sometimes not only dreaming but

(01:01:34):
bringing those dreams alive. What's the most valuable thing that
you've learned about dreaming fearlessly and bringing those dreams alive?
I haven't exactly learned how to do that yet. But um,
I think theoretically anyway, I'd like to get there. Uh.
It's that, you know, you just have to give yourself permission. Um,

(01:01:56):
you know, not just to fail, but to succeed. Um.
If you could have dinner with anyone, dead or alive,
who would you love to have dinner with? Um, she's
so amazing questions? Uh, dead or alive? Um, honestly, I'd
love to have dinner with Meryl Streep. I think that'd

(01:02:17):
be really fun. That's a really good choice. I agree
with you. I will. I'll bring the dessert if you
guys let me sit in for coffee. You guys have dinner.
I'll ask Meryl, but I'm sure fine with her. I
love that. A final question for you, best nickname you've
ever been given? Actually I've only had one, and it

(01:02:40):
was Trump. When I was a kid growing up, everybody
called me Trump. Nobody called me Mary, which is why
I don't want to have to change my last name.
Fair enough, you know what, I'm a lover of names.
I grew up loving sports, and so if you love sports,
you hear all these names as a kid, and um,

(01:03:01):
and and Mary. Trump's a good name. And I like
the l in it, I like, I like, there's something
about that that's kind of Michael B. Jordan's esque. Yeah. Well,
probably for the same reason. I need both of my
grandmother's her named Mary and my obviously my dad's mom
is Mary Trump. So I needed something to distinguish myself

(01:03:23):
from that. Oh oh nice. So it's got a little
bit of a w a factor to it, a little
bit of h set yourself apart. Hey, Mary, thank you
for for giving me all this time. I so appreciate
it and appreciate you. And uh. One of the folks
I worked with, Larissa, I was asking her, you know, uh,

(01:03:43):
because I can tell she was looking forward to you
coming on the show. And I asked her why, and
she said that she appreciated your courage, and she appreciated
your willingness to stand up, and she assumed that most
of us often don't do that, and so she appreciated
that you did it. So I'm sure you hear that
comp a lot. But I know that you also got
a lot of that love from inside this room too.

(01:04:05):
That's really sweet. Please thank you for me and Carlos.
This was fabulous. I had spend a good time, so
thank you for keeping it interesting. Mary. Be safe with
that Meryl streep day happens. I want to bring coffee.
I will keep you posted, Okay, al right, be safe,
I'll see say bye bye. Thank you for listening to

(01:04:34):
this episode of The Carlos Watson Show podcast. If you
enjoyed this episode, please tell your friends to find us
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