May 14, 2025 • 54 mins
Justin and Carter react to the Cavs season ending with a 1-4 loss to the Indiana Pacers. Providing their takes on what lessons the team will need to learn from the loss in order to come back stronger next season. As well as where they came up short in this disappointing end to the season.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to its being what Carl slamming it
out car left wing free ball perfect?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Then he blocked the shot at the rim.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
How with the left.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hand head of foul.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Welcome to Chasetown Podcast, part of the CAZ Media family.
I'm your host Justin Rohwan. The Chasetown is presented by Fubo,
the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three
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Try for free at FuboTV dot com slash CAZ if
you can hear it in my voice. The Cleveland Cavaliers
have lost their series to the Indiana Pacers in five games.
(00:39):
The game was close, they had a lead, Indiana made
their push took a lead. The Cavs had a chance
to tie it up near the end of the game,
but ultimately came up short. The season is over. It
stings and joining me today to discuss it as my
co host, Carter Rodriguez.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Carter, Hey, nobuddy, you know I'm feeling melancholy. You spend
a lot of time investing into into this team, you know, Uh, Yeah.
I always think about the thing I said to No
I'm on this very podcast, our dear friend Jeff Nomena,
(01:18):
that if our significant others had a hobby that left
them this down, we would think they were out of
their minds. And uh, you know, that's just that's just
that's just how I feel right now. I feel sad,
Feel frustrated that, you know, they were banged up again
(01:42):
and you really saw that, Feel disappointed that all the
things that I was worried about them kind of came
back to bite. Feel stupid. We're kind of for believing,
you know, like you have all those kind of feelings
going through your brain. Yeah, yeah, just because like I really,
you know, it's hard one for me to get to
(02:04):
the point where I'm like, I think we might be
able to win a title this year, you know, like
that I take my time getting to that opinion. And
not that I was ever. I mean, I wasn't gonna
pick us in the next round if it was us
versus the Celtics, which you know that's its own thing. Yeah,
but yeah, you just I feel like you kind of
(02:24):
are going through the feelings right now, and it's it's sad.
I'm just sad Man.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It definitely stings, and you know, one of the things
I was reflecting on, you know, it's always tough when
we go post game, you know, even if it's a win,
to collect your thoughts and you know, kind of have
that same level of preparedness we do with the other podcast.
But one of the things I was kind of reflecting
on is, you know, we've been doing this podcast since
twenty seventeen. This is the first time that you and
(02:54):
I have done a podcast where the Cavs didn't go
as far as we thought that they would at the
start of a season. You know, in twenty seventeen and eighteen,
we thought they'd make the finals. After Lebron left, we
didn't say that this team was going to be a
team that could make the playoffs or the postseason. You know,
in those following years, I think we kept the expectations
realistic and found things to care about during that time.
(03:16):
And you know, looking back at the last few years, yes,
our expectations would grow within the season when this team
would overachieve, you know, particularly that first year with Donald
Mitchell where we said, okay, you know our goal for
the season was to you know, make the playoffs, potentially
get home court, but now we feel like we can
actually win around So they've come up short of kind
(03:40):
of those escalated expectations that we've had.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
But this is the.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
First time where we came into a season saying we
think that this is a team that's going to make
the conference finals. Anything less than that is going to
be a failure. And I think, you know, all the
contacts aside, I think that that's what the season was
ultimately right, Like the regular season was success, It's why
I compartmentalize the two. But they failed to come up
(04:04):
to the level of their postseason goals. And I agree
with what Kenny Atkinson said before this game. I think
it was exactly the same kind of thing that we
were trying to say on the last podcast, which is
injuries were obviously a factor, but I think they had
enough to win this series. I think if this team
was fully healthy, it would have been It probably would
(04:25):
have been enough to cover up some of the bad
habits that we saw in this series. I think some
of the issues that we've seen from the Cavs, I
think they would have been able to out talent a
lot of that, and I think it would have changed
the complexion of the series. You know, you could sit
here and say, well, you know, the calls go differently
in game two. If the last two minutes is called properly,
you know you're in a two to two situation and
(04:45):
you feel better about it. I think they had enough
to win this series with who is available in the
state that they were available. It just reduced their margin
of error down to a level where some of the
mental mistakes, some of you know, those demon in some
of the issues that they've had in the past, came
bubbling up to the surface and it wasn't problems that
(05:05):
they could just out talent and overcome that way. So
I think that in some ways that makes this a
more informative series than it otherwise would have been, and
I think there is a lot of lessons to learn from.
This doesn't make it any easier, though, Like I understand
how people react in this situation, right like people are
(05:28):
going to lash out. You know, I look at some
prominent voices that have been vocal about the calves, and
I could have told you what their takeaway from this
game was going to be before the game even occurred,
before the series even occurred. If the Calves came up
short of expectations, like everyone's going to default to their priors,
and you know, my instinct is to not lash out
(05:50):
the team. It's to lash out at the people that
I disagree with. But none of that's healthy, right We're
all looking to redirect our anger and our frustration in
some other direction, and you know it's not healthy. But
I empathize with the fans, right, Like, this was a
lot of fun. This team gave you a lot of
reasons to believe and coming up short just things.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, I mean, and I really do think a lot
of uh not to go like full armchair psychologists here.
I do think a lot of the mad on the
timeline right now is finley disguised sad, you know, I think,
and I think that's always sometimes I.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Just wish very closely related.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I just wish fans could kind of know, like a
little bit better, like what their feelings are, and like,
you know, I think I and you know, that's just
part of it. And it's not like I didn't get
pissy during this series myself. You know, there's so many
things that I kind of keep going back to in
(06:56):
terms of what this team needs to take away and
I just think it's again, it's getting dragged into someone
else's style. Yeah, and I don't I'm not sure what
the answer is there, dude, especially with and I think,
(07:16):
you know, we have all off season to talk about
the changes that gain and cannot be made. But like,
you know, I don't know how you get past you know,
you start the third quarter so crisp, so sharp, and
then you just stop playing basketball. Yeah, you know. And
(07:37):
I know Indiana like cranked the pressure up, but I mean,
and I know that Darius could not move and it
got worse and worse over the course of the game
in a way that was really really hard to watch.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, and I know.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That Donovan got you know, I either stepped on or
need a knee or something like that on that three
and and he had a he couldn't move that whole
quarter either. But it was the lack of commitment to anything.
You know, we have Max left wing Iso layup on
Andrew nimhard like like you know, not to go full
(08:15):
Patrick Ewing here, but like did you practice that shot?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Like is that what part of our offense has been
Max struce isoing against the best defender on the other
team's team against his set defense, Like that wasn't part
of this team's brand or identity all year. It wasn't
even their identity to have Donovan or Darius Iso against
the other team's best player on offense all year. So
(08:41):
like you can't even just tell me, like, well, those
guys are hurting. Someone's got to do it, Like, you know,
I just think their stylistic resilience is the number one
thing that like I thought I saw signs against Miami
that they were going to be able to do it,
And I just think the takeaway here is at Miami
was just disastrously bad and not even close to being
(09:05):
a playoff team, And we didn't learn anything from that series.
You know, I thought we learned a couple of things
we didn't And until they can answer that stylistic imprint question,
I just, you know, I just don't know if there's
a lot of value in looking at any one individual
(09:27):
blame focal point. You know, Jarrett's gonna catch a lot
of hell all summer because he had two really you know,
non bad games, non impactful games to close the series
the season, while guys like Thomas Bryant are feasting. But
like you know, We've always said that, like kind of
(09:49):
a Canarian the coal mine situation with this team and
you know a team you know, and I go back
to the Swiss Watch analogy I've made a bunch of times.
You know, one grain of sand just takes the second
best offense in the history of the sport in the
regular season two, Max Strus isowing Andrew Nimhart on the
(10:10):
wing with like eighteen seconds left on the shot clock. Yeah,
and like I just I wish I knew the answer
to that, but I don't right now.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah, well, I think the un fun answer because it's
kind of boring and it doesn't really say a whole
lot is when it comes to, you know, ability to
maintain style of play, to impose your will and all that. Like,
I think that's something that they're either going to figure
out or they're not. Like it's ultimately going to be
(10:41):
something that through the experience, through you know, this failure,
through their time together, that they eventually figure that out
or it's going to be the reason why this team
doesn't win a championship And doesn't you know, get as
far in the postseason as we want them to write,
they are going to underachieve in the postseason until that
(11:02):
aspect of things is figured out. And that was one
of the things that Kenny Atkinson talked about post game.
You know, he said that what they need to get
over is that mental part of the game. He said
that the next jump, the next leap that we have
to make is that mental strength. And you know, I
think some of that comes down to chemistry and continuity, right, Like,
that's one of the things of you know, when core
(11:24):
members of a team get to play together for an
extended period of time, you know, you can have those
hiccups along the way, but usually when you kind of
iron that out and you get to that level where
it's second nature, where you know where everyone's going to be,
you recognize when someone hasn't gone enough touches for an
(11:46):
extended period of time and do the right things to
continue to impose your style of play. Like usually that's
the kind of thing that takes time, right, Like, I
think back to you know, Yokichen, Jamal Murray, those guys
took seven years together, but before they won a championship.
You know, uh, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, you know,
both of them were kind of born on third base
to some extent being drafted to an Eastern Conference final team.
(12:09):
But even with that, you know, it took them six
years to get over the hump. That doesn't mean it's
going to happen for this team, but I think that
that is in fact the next step. Right, Like we
you are able to bank on some you know, physical
maturity and development, particularly when it comes to guys like
Darius Garland and Evan Mobley who aren't in their primes yet.
(12:31):
But I think as a collective, they need to get
over that hump. And that's one of the things, honestly,
before we continue on with the Cavs, we need to
credit the Indiana Pacers for that. They really did impose
their style of play. They imposed you know, you felt
like it was an Indiana Pacers game out there.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
And you know in every playoff series of the of
the Halliburton era, they've done this.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, they know who they are as a team. They
stick with that style of play. Even if you get
them out of that style of play for five six minutes,
they are going to revert back to it. Right, Like
it's water finding its level right anytime the the you know,
the the boat gets rocked, that water is going to
level out and they are going to be playing Indiana
Pacers basketball. And like I said, even with all the injuries,
(13:19):
I think the Cavs had enough, and the way that
the Indiana Pacers played ensured that it wasn't enough, and
they need to be credited for that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, I mean, I just I'm sorry. I don't think
this Indie team is more talented. I think they have
players who are very talented. I think this was a
tough matchup for the Cavs because of all the there
you know, all their pressure they put on you at
the point of attack defensively, because of their five out.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Offense, which I think was a big part of the
whole Jared thing, to be honest. And when we've seen
him struggle, it's when a team's going five out and
he's been nasa to switch and guard point guards and
be taken away from the basket. Usually that's when you
start to see, oh the rebounds dropped. Well, he's also
standing out of three point line for a lot of
(14:10):
the game.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yep. But like you know, I mean, Thomas Bryant killed
them in this series. Obi Topping killed them in the series.
Calves didn't have any of that you know, and I
don't think that's because INDI's bench or deep or mid
you know, middle class of their rotation are so much
(14:32):
more talented than the Calves. I think it's like the
inverse of the canary in the coal mine. Like Indiana
Pacer basketball does what the Calves Calves basketball did in
the regular season, which is makes things easy. Think about
how many times we said over the regular season about
you know, Okoro having good stretches, Wait, having good stretches,
(14:57):
you know, Jerome going nuts, and and you know what
did I say over and over and over again. I said,
It's easy to play Calves basketball right now. It's not
hard to be a Cleveland Cavalier. And sure looked hard
in the series, and for the Pacers it just felt
you know, Obi Toppins getting to do Doctor j scooped
(15:18):
layups and hell right now amazing. And you know, everyone
up and down just seemed so comfortable in what their
job was for so much of the series. And I
do think that should be a real like wake up
call for this team, because again it's not you know,
(15:39):
I think even me and you are going to look
at this and go, we need more, we need better
and it's a natural reaction. But it's like just play better.
Like sometimes it's that simple. I don't think the Calves
played more than one. You know, how many good quarters
of basketball did the Calves play in this series? Not enough?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
You know, uh, you know how committed were they to
who they were? Not enough? And like that is where
I just kind of like stall out in trying to
figure out where to go because it's like, you had
enough talent, you had the coach of the year, you
didn't have health, which sucks, but like you didn't play
(16:25):
well yep. And some of that is just like shooting.
I mean, I'm i They're gonna be under thirty percent
on wide open threes for the series.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, it was at twenty prior to this game.
I can almost guarantee you that that went down tonight.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah. So and so like I don't know, man, Like
I don't know what you do with uh we we
are a team of good shooters that can't shoot in
the playoffs. Like some of this stuff is just you know,
we're at the hard problem to solve portion you know,
of the of the of the team life cycle, it's
(17:05):
not really that hard. To be in a rebuild, you
take swings on young players, you you try to find
an identity. It's hard to get out of a rebuild,
but the choice that individual choices are easy. You take on.
You win as many trades as you can get, as
you can win. You leverage your position as a team
(17:27):
that's not a competitive contender to find all these incremental moves.
But like, we're at the stage where I'm like, I
don't know what you're supposed to do. I don't I
don't see the structural change because I really do think
at the end of the day, and I'm it's the
least satisfying thing for a podcaster who has to talk
(17:48):
all summer to say, which is I think they just
need to play better. Yeah, and and until they do,
I just I don't know where to go with that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
It comes down to channeling that experience challenge, you know,
finding the mental toughness within this failure, within what happened
this season, you know, the self reflection and doing what.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Needs to be done.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
And that's not something that's easy to talk about, right,
Like you could sit here and say, oh, look look
how they shot from the free throw line. They need
to shoot five thousand free throws a day, and that's what's.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Going to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Like, you know, you can kind of say that stuff
to make yourself feel better, but it really, as Kenny said,
it comes down to that mental aspect of the game.
It comes down to getting over that hump to to
find ways to be more resilient where you know, injuries
aren't taking them out to the same extent that they are.
And you know, some of this is bad luck, right, Like,
(18:46):
it sucks that it all hit. At the same time,
it sucks that, you know, you look at what the
Indiana Pacers were able to do physically. This is different
than the last couple of years. You know, like people
just see the word physicality, they're like, oh, you know,
same Calves, blah blah blah. This is completely different. Four
out of five games in this series, the Calves absolutely
(19:07):
dominant dominated Indy on the offensive glass and points in
the paint. That's that's what the issue was for the
most part. Yeah, that's what the Calves issue was in
some of these past series, right Like that's where they
got beat up by the Knicks. That's you know, that
was the discussion against the Orlando Magic Boston that wasn't
the case because it was you know, it was just
(19:29):
you know gang, yeah, like, you know, that's not what
it's been. This was completely different. Indy was giving you
pressure and physicality on the perimeter. They recognized that the
Calves guards were limited. Mitchell was playing through you know,
that ankle and calf. Throughout this entire series, he's been
dealing with it. You know, it's some form of something,
(19:52):
you know, since the beginning of March. So we're at
two and a half months now of you know, Mitchell
struggling uh physically and and finding ways to be effective.
But between Mitchell being limited, between Darius being limited, and
Ty just not being able to turn the corner, versus
that pressure at all, it completely changed the complexion of
the Calves offense. And you know, one of the ways
(20:15):
to break that is playing through the bigs. That's what
we talked about on the last podcast. That's how the
Cavs started this game. To their credit, they were using
Evan Mobley and Jared Allen as the roleman and not
only were they scoring individually, it was generating clean looks.
But Indy started taking that away. They started cheating off
of Mitchell and Garland, at times they were treating them
(20:36):
like Isaac Okoro out there, where they were basically daring
them to shoot because everything that those guys were thrown
up was coming up short. And you know, that's one
of those things where you know, I can sit here
and I still think that there were ways to get
the Bigs involved. I think you could have continued to
find ways to get them the ball downhill. I think
they went away from it. I would have liked to
(20:58):
see them try and fail more than they did with
what ind was doing, you know, defensively. But at the
same time, a big part of this equation is they
were able to cheat off two of the most dynamic
guards in the NBA, one of the best backcourts in
the NBA. And you know Darius is out there shooting,
(21:18):
what did he shoot? Four sixteen, Mitchell eight of twenty five.
Neither of them could hit from three. That's going to
mess up your spacing. I'm sorry, it just is. That's
going to be part of the equation here. So I
still think that what they did going away from the
bigs is alarming. You know, last year or you know,
(21:39):
coming into training camp, Kenny apparently had you know, a
reduced shot clock where they were playing with an eighteen
second shot clock, and training camp to make sure that
they were getting to their sets quicker, that they played
with pace and tempo. The rule this year going into
training camp is nobody gets to take a shot until
Evan Mobley's touched the basketball at least once. That should
be the training camp philosophy. But I do think when
(22:02):
you are diagnosing what went wrong here, the limited physical
state that Donnald Mitchell and Darius Garland were in has
to be part of the equation if you're going to
have an honest conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, and sure that's all true, and yes, Indy was
able to dig harder on these on these roles for
Evan and Jarrett. But I think that's where I'm the
most disappointed, because you mentioned, you know, this isn't the
physicality problems of two years ago. They are winning at
(22:35):
the points the paying battle in this series. They are
getting to the line in this series. They are getting
offensive rebounds in the series. But it's almost more painful
to know that against New York it wasn't really an
option to go to the biggs because neither of those
guys were ready to help. And against Indy, they kind
(23:00):
of just didn't try. I'm sorry, I just don't think
they tried enough. They and you know, Evan finishes this
postseason never attempting more than thirteen shots in a game
across the nine games. And when I say they don't try,
I'm not saying they didn't, you know, in those literal
(23:21):
since they tried. Yeah, but they only tried one way.
They only tried running pick and roll and handoffs, and
those are the things that are the easiest to cheat
off of because especially with limited mobility guards, because you
can just grab them on the way around and you know,
(23:43):
and blow up the play. Where are clear out post ups?
Where are inverted pick and rolls? Where are big, big
pick and rolls? Did they run a single Mobile Allen
pick and roll in this series? No shot? Did they
ever just clear out and let Mobley get a post
(24:04):
touch against Pascal Siakam, who he consistently drew fouls on,
consistently was able to attack and draw help. Like like, yeah,
you can call out that that they were cheating off
of Mobile and Daria or I'm sorry, Donovan and Darius,
and they were, but the Cabs kind of let them
(24:26):
have it their way. Where they got to cheat off
of them and the Cabs weren't even getting a parade
of wide open threes. Like like the offense wasn't healthy
in this series at the end of the day. Yep,
it just wasn't. And and that's not a shooting variance
problem if they were trying all these different ways to
(24:49):
draw the help and you know, uh and Aaron Nesmith
had to help from the weak side corner to crash
down on an Evan Mobley post up and we got
them in rotation that way. I can kind of live
that way, pick and roll and dribble handoffing Tyrese Halliburton,
(25:12):
who was really pretty excellent defensively, I thought in this series,
you know, stayed connected, leveraged his size, got key shot
blocks when it mattered, Like it just felt like hitting
your head against the brick wall brick wall. And you
don't get to do that strategy when Darius and Donovan
(25:34):
can't play the way they want to and Tis Rome's
having the worst you know, five games of his career,
so like that is I think That's where I'm frustrated,
and like when I'm looking at like the tactics of
what you know, what they can do. That's better than
just play better. It's like, hey, you're you've got to
(25:56):
change your attack. You've got to change the way you're
going to do this. You know, there were so many
plays where even when they got a switch and it
was Nie Smith on Evan and Evan was like had
a foot in the paint, they didn't even look about
it at an entry pass, you know, like and until
they do that kind of stuff. Like the whole freaking
point of the Evan Mobley experience this season was to
(26:21):
diversify your game in a way that made not this happen.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
To make an offense more playoff proof.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, like you could have used Tarry Easen the way
that Evan was used in this series. Like, and that's
and that I think is probably what I will leave
as my like, Like, I mean, my biggest disappointment is
that they lost the way they lost, but like at
a tactical level, my biggest disappointment is the usage of Evan.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, honestly, that that was the thought that I hadn't
really got to Like, I like the way that you
described it there right where you know, it's different than
the past because there were tools left in the tool
belt that were unused, right, and it's just crazy to
have tools at your disposal and not use it, Which
is why I take advantage of zoom Ai Companion. Because
only you can do your best work, zoom Ai Companion
(27:12):
can help you do the rest, like automatically taking notes,
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Available at no additional cost with eligible paid plans. Were
happy with zoom Ai Companion. I do say, like, I
don't want it to get lost. You know, the effort
that they gave in this game overall, like I thought,
(27:33):
they lost control obviously in the third quarter. That was
very frustrating. It was frustrating to see that lead evaporate.
I appreciate the fact that they did continue to fight
and you know, have a chance to tie it up
near the end. You know, obviously Mitchell missing those three
free throws was a killer, particularly after you know he
(27:54):
hit the three right, like, you know, all of that
stuff's a killer. But when you see you know, Mitchell
limping out there, but still, like you said before, when
he'd get knocked down, he'd bounce right back up. When
you see Darius Garland limping, you know, the other games,
it took a little while for him to be limping.
(28:15):
This one he started like it was very clear that,
you know, he was in a lot of pain. I
was actually really surprised that, despite the fact that, you know,
he was on a bum wheel the entire time, he
moved well laterally defensively, Like it wasn't like I'm saving
myself for the offensive end. I'm just going to give
you a burst on that end. I felt like the
effort on the defensive end was more consistent, right, Like
(28:38):
he was staying in front of Andrew Nemhart, you know,
drawing that offensive foul because Nemhart couldn't turn the corner
on him and pushed him with the arm right he
was competing in those switches and the mismatches. I didn't
feel like that was something that Indie ever really exploited
when he.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Was out there.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
So I got to give him credit, you know, for
competing the way he did. I got to give him
and Donovan a lot of credit for how they competed,
because you know, you can't sit here and say, hey,
you know, whatever you are able to give the team,
go out and do it and then be upset that
it doesn't look the way that you wanted to look.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, and I think Donovan leaves this run, you know.
I I think last year everyone left Donovan's run being
like that's that guy. Yeah, And I think me and
you were like, I mean, he is, but I didn't
(29:33):
love the way we got there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
It was in a healthy offensive ecosystem, like he was
doing everything he could to to you know, drag the team,
but you know it, it was tough.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I think this year I was just purely pretty darn
impressed by him. He was the only one who consistently
made Indiana react to him in this series and like, yeah,
he does hold you know. I I think he takes
(30:09):
some accountability for Evan not getting the ball, you know,
as much as I would have liked to see and
stuff like that. But just overall, his physicality is you know,
a series where he can't shoot and he just responds
by getting, you know, to the lion like fifteen times
(30:30):
a game. I didn't know if he had that kind
of series in him, yeah, you know, and really hard
earned rim attacks over and over and over again. And
so I do think Donovan kind of comes out of
this feeling, you know, smelling the best, despite obviously the
(30:52):
way the way it ends.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
I've been really really impressed with him, you know, all
all season long. I think, you know, the sacrifice that
he's shown has been incredibly impressive. I thought, you know,
there were times where you know, you can have your gripes.
I felt like off ball defense was not that it
wasn't his strongest series on that end of the court,
(31:18):
but it's hard to complain when you know that the
guy he's dealing with lower body ailments, whether you know
it's the ankle, the calf, everything's been you know, bothering him,
and you know, I think one of the things that
I was happy that Kenny addressed in the post game issue,
I think it was Joe Barden then asked him the
question basically about, you know, the team having their minutes
(31:42):
managed all season, was conditioning a factor? Were were they
in kind of the playoff shape that you wanted? And
I think it has more to do like we couldn't
even really see if this team was capable of a
minute ramp up in the playoffs just because they were,
you know, playing hurt for the competitive games. It's not
like you're going to play the guys forty minutes against
(32:05):
Miami when you're up forty points, So that's just kind
of a you know, there's.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
No point in that.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
But Kenny did say, you know what we had heard
that you know, there was a plan to ramp up
minutes after the All Star break, but you know, between
this grilling schedule that they had some of the nagging
injuries that you know, Donovan was dealing with at the time,
and the fact that a lot of their wins there
were up twenty and you know, twenty thirty points made
it harder for them to do the ramp up. He said,
(32:32):
we only kind of did an okay job of that,
and I think that's going to be one of the
things they need to reflect on. Remember, I said at
the start of the season, when they were managing the
minutes and the minutes were so damn low, I said,
you know, one of the things that came to mind
was concern about how that used to affect the Milwaukee Bucks,
where Budenholzer would manage the minutes and you could tell
(32:53):
that Giannis would get tired in the playoffs. I don't
know how much of a factor that was in this,
but I think when you're doing that self reflecting and assessing,
you have to ask, is there something we can do
to put ourselves in a better position physically for when
it comes to the playoffs, Because.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, I don't freaking know. I just don't know, you know,
Like Darius, it's turf toe, yeah, you know, like that's
that's Evan lands On, Miles Turner's ankle, you know, Donovan
just Donovan is like I mean, every injury Donovan's ever
had is a heavy usage injury.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So it's like, I just don't know if you can
cook up a better game plan.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, and like and like this is the first time
Darius has got hurt in the playoffs, right, Like last
year it's the after effects of the jaw issue and
you know, everything he was dealing with the family and
stuff like that. So like, I I understand what you're saying,
Like some of this stuff is fluke that you can't control, right, Like,
you know, things certain I just don't.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Think I'm gonna go back to just like be better,
like don't get guessed, Like, don't get beat up, don't
get hit first every time, Diversify your offensive game plan
in a way that allows you to not require Evan
or require Donovan to try to brush off Andrew Neimhard
(34:17):
nine straight screens in a row every possession, like they're
tired because they're playing a tiring style that has them
on the back foot. Like yeah, Indy, I didn't see
Indy tired. And it's not because Haliburton played forty three
(34:39):
minutes a game. Andy didn't look tired because they one
are used to play like this in terms of what
they're doing on the on the court, and because they
dictated the freaking terms yea they play. It's tiring to
get to be dragged around by someone and try to disconnect.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I would absolutely love to try to turn Tyrese Haliburn
into a score inside the three point line. Would run
him off that damn three point line, turn him into
a score. Has he ever beat a team that way?
It's always you know, finding guys as a distributor and
that step back to going to his left, like he is.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Able to shoot that from forty feet. It's what he does.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Uh, didn't make them uncomfortable, but you know, when it
comes to you know, better physical being prepared for the
physicality of the playoffs and being in you know, peak
shape at that time. You're right, Like you the issues
that Donovan has had has been high usage type stuff, right,
Like it's it's a bit of a consistent trend for him.
(35:43):
He's when he comes to the playoffs, he's usually dealing
with something with his lower body. You know, I think
the Knick series was the only time it wasn't at
that time it was I believe a broken finger on
his left hand. But you look at the last four
years of him in the playoffs, you know, including the
year prior to coming to Cleveland. What do you think
he's shooting from three carter and I think this has
(36:06):
solely to do with lower body wear and tearor he's
shooting thirty percent, he is eighty of two point fifty nine. Like, yep,
that's it's been a consistent thing for him. And you know,
to his credit, he has found ways to be that dude,
to be someone that you know, has a historic streak
(36:28):
of game one storing, you know, thirty points that that
past Michael Jordan. He has been that dude. I'm very,
very happy with the effort that we got from him
in these playoffs. But this all comes back to you.
We're sitting here trying to win a championship with a
team that doesn't have a certified top five type talent.
(36:51):
That means we need to get every guy that was,
you know, an All Star in all NBA consideration this year,
namely our top three to all be maximized as much
as possible. And I think when we've seen with Donovan
is that to maximize him, you got to make sure
that you are managing his load so he's able to
be that knockout punch, not somebody that's pulling the cart
(37:14):
up hill the whole time. And I think, as you said,
that comes down to making sure that Evan Mobley is
involved in taking a load off these guys. That means,
you know, Darius has to play a major part in this,
because we have seen when Donovan's trying to make up
for the absence of Darius Garland, things usually go poorly
for him physically, whether that was that twelve and four
(37:35):
stretch that they had last year where he missed the
entire post All Star break stretch, or you know, playing
through these first two games against Indiana without Darius, like
it takes a toll on him. And you know, whether
that's Darius and Evan or just you know, better backup
point guard play. I think all of that needs to
be taken into consideration when we look at this afseason.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
To your point, I mean, when did the Cavs offense
look at best in this series? I would argue it's
when Donovan got catch and shoot three point attempts yep,
you know. And when did his jumper look the best
when he got catch and shoot three point attempts? You know.
Some of that as Darius just not being there, Ty
(38:17):
not be in there. Some of it is the stylistic stuff,
not going to Evan, not using the muscles you trained
up all year. Some of its indies awesome. I think
they're going to make the finals.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I think they're they're better than the next like the
Knicks are advancing primarily because of you.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Know that injury.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I'm well, I wouldn't say that they were going to
win that game and go up three to one, and
you have to give them a lot of credit. They're
better than I thought they. I thought they had no
shot in that series. And yes I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Wrong, again more to do with Boston than them, but
it might.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But you still got to give him. I mean, talk
about a spot to give credit. But like in terms
of giving credit to the Pacers. It's funny I left
that Knick series feeling like this Calves team has a
lot of soul searching to do and a lot of
like structural improvements to make really more the latter than
(39:16):
the former. Everyone else wanted soul searching. I just wanted
a roster that made sense. You wanted a supporting cast
that you know. But I didn't leave that series thinking
about the ways I thought the Calves needed to emulate
the New York Knicks. I'm leaving this series thinking about
ways that the Caves should be emulating the Indiana Pacers.
I agree, surely, And I don't think there's a nicer
(39:38):
thing I can say to the Indiana Pacers than that.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah, they're more than the sum of their parts, like
quite a bit more. What they are able to do
defensively with the personnel they have is impressive. Their defense
is better than their personnel. I would argue even their
offense is better than their personnel. Right, Like, guys that
are so so shooters are really putting in a position
to succeed. We need to get to there because I
(40:04):
think that this team is capable of doing that. I
think any team is capable of doing that. But I
don't think that they were more than there's some of
the parts. I think they had really really awesome parts.
And when things were going easy in the regular season
that came through. They had a ton of depth. They
had a ton of top end talent. Right basically our
pre series diagnosis against the series in the Miami Heat,
(40:27):
why did I pick a sweep? Well, because the Cavs
probably have at least the best two players in the series,
maybe three, and the Heat's bench is going up against
the two of the top three six Men of the
Year candidates. We had the advantage in the starting lineup
and we had the advantage on the bench, and that's
exactly what we saw in that series. We can't be
(40:47):
in a position where we are less than are some
of our parts, because when you're trying to win a
championship without a bona fide top five player, you need
to be that. When you saw the Detroit Piston win
and beat the Lakers, that's how they did it. When
when you you know, even I don't want to say
the Toronto Raptors, that's too weird, and you know people
(41:11):
love to credit why, so I won't go there. But
when when you have seen teams like this historically go
out and win, they are more than some of their parts.
And that's one of the things that the cast need
to get to.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, oh man, I'm sad. Uh you know, it's just uh,
you know, the one thing everyone's gonna roll their eyes at,
you know, pontificating Carter doing his thing that he always does.
But like I will say that this is why you
(41:46):
can't be a results based sports fan. You just can't
because it's too painful. Like I feel a lot of
pain right now, but at least I had fun the
whole way, you know, and I found the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I don't think the people that were miserable the whole
way being like do it in the playoffs are less
miserable now. I think they're probably just as angry as
they would be if they had some fun this year.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
And and frankly, I actually don't think there was that
much of that this year. I think most people just
it was such a fun ride that even the cynics
and the skeptics got on board or just shut the
hell up, you know, you know, And I would say
it's a healthy split, honestly. But and now, and I
(42:33):
think some of those folks there, I think a lot
of people's reaction like shit, dude. My reaction just at
the beginning of this podcast was like, I feel stupid
for believing, you know, but like I do think it's
a really bad impulse to let take root because like,
(42:54):
the fun is the believing. The fun is the excitement.
Like I don't like like, I'm not on the court,
I'm not a coach, I'm not a I'm not a
front office member. The only thing that's fun about this
is the fun is the is the belief is the
journey and uh.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
And there's nothing more satisfying than a team you care
about overcoming things and growing, right, like seeing the journey,
see going through.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
The issues, Like that's that's what it's.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
About for me.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
And they might not overcome this, right, like the inability
to become more than some of their parts in this setting,
to impose their style of play upon the opponent and
dictate the terms of engagement. That might ultimately be what
though it holds them back, But I I care about
the problem solving. I care about them trying to overcome that.
(43:48):
And I'm Carter. I gotta be honest. I'm ready to
run through a wall again because I just saw Donald
Mitchell's quote postgame.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Have you seen it yet?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I did? You can you can pare phrase that if
you'd like.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, he said, y'all are going to write us off,
but we'll be back, and hell y, I Donnie, Hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
That's the energy you want to see at the end
of the day. I do really think that these guys
do believe in each other, do have that kind of camaraderie,
and like that is the last that The other big
challenge at this point is is the is maintaining collective
(44:28):
belief because these guys it's over. This era will be
over the second these guys don't think they can do it. Yeah.
You know, we've seen so many good teams, really really
quality competitive teams that just the second they lost it.
(44:56):
And it's not an individual belief. I think all these
guys are always gon Yeah. NBA players are wired like psychos. Yeah,
they're all going to believe in themselves individually. But if
they lose belief in the journey, well then you might
as well just start over. Yeah, because you know that's
the only thing I'm not ever gonna that's the only
time it's not going to be fun for me is
(45:20):
watching a team that doesn't believe in itself anymore. So,
like that Donovan quote is important for me as a
fan going through this experience.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
I completely agree, And you know, I think this team
has a lot of reasons to still believe.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
You know, the one thing that we have.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Consistently heard is, you know, this team will go as
far as Evan Mobley is willing to take us or
able to take us. I do think reflecting on this
series and reflecting back on the whole year, I think
this wasn't just something that changed in the playoffs where hey,
you know, we kind of neglected Evan for stretches of
(45:59):
the game. We could have continued to feed him. We
could have used that to, you know, overcome pressure that
teams are throwing at us. I think there were times
throughout this entire season where Evin kind of would go
on the back burner. He would have great quarters, we
didn't consistently feed him. That was a habit from the
regular season that carried forward to the playoffs. I think
(46:21):
we need to put our money where our mouth is
when it comes to that, where you know, even if
it costs regular season games, which we said that last
year where we're like, we gotta let Evan explore the space,
and you know, his improvement needs to matter even if
it costs you some regular season games. We said that
going into last year and they won sixty four. So
(46:41):
I don't think that Evan Mobiley, you know, being a
larger focal point and that sustained point of emphasis is
something that's going to make this team worse. I do
think it actually needs to be a sustained point of emphasis.
I think we have not gone out, as I said
on the last podcast, we haven't had a five to
(47:02):
twenty Evan Mobley game where you know, we just continue
to try to feed them and it just didn't work out.
That has never occurred. And I think in the regular
season you were able to get away with going away
from Evan Mobley because Darius and Donovan were so damn good,
because Ty was so damn good, because you know, DeAndre
Hunter was coming in and giving you a lot off
(47:22):
the bench. You were able to get away with that
because this team had so many options. But when it
comes to the playoffs, your star players matter more than ever,
and Evan Mobley needs to be a sustained important part
of that equation.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. Man, sucks. Sucks to lose.
But you know, before we sign off, I do think
we should just get get around to thank you, thank you,
to wait wait wait, wait, you got thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I do have one more thing I want to touch on. Okay,
I do think it actually is really important and if
we're going to be emotional and vulnerable here, but let's
just go through it all because what happened with Jason
Tatum absolutely sucks. I think it is terrible for the NBA,
and as a Cavs fan that wanted to see this
team tested against the healthy Celtics. I want a healthy
(48:17):
Calves versus healthy Celtics. It looks like we're not going
to get that opportunity. It bums me the hell out
seeing him, you know, on the ground, yelling, knowing that
the injury itself not that painful, but the emotion that
you go through in that spot, it's just absolutely terrible.
I feel for Celtics fans, you know, I enjoy beating them.
(48:39):
I want to see Boston fail, but I don't want
to see it like that. It really really sucks, and
that's going to be something that changes the calculus of
this offseason, right, like when we're evaluating how the Caves
stack up against the East, Jason Tatum not being on
Boston next year is going to be a big part
of it, and it's going to change their team building.
(49:01):
It It just sucks, man, I I feel sick. You know,
We've been talking about how the NBA needs to market
it's the younger stars and continue to push that next generation.
As you know, the Lebron staff all kind of age out,
and Tatum was going to be a big part of that.
Even if it was someone that I was rooting against.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
I absolutely hate it.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
And it's unfortunately it's going to be relevant to the
Kavs off season, Like I think it is something that
that's going to have to be part of the calculus here.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah. Well, it's obviously a bumber. You hope you know
he comes back right, just you know, it's just not
what you want to see at the end of the day.
But you're right, it's going to be a factor in
how I mean, it's a landscape changer for the for
the NBA. One of those kinds of injuries. So can
(49:53):
I get to some thank you real quick? Yes?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I just wanted to to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Uhh, just big thanks to our listeners for the over
the course of the season. It's been a blast. Thanks
to those folks, especially those that hang on the YouTube
chat with us, you know almost you know, twice a week.
Uh and and hang out with us. Thank you to
uh Do the Calves for all their support and taking
good care of us. Matt Old Brenna. You guys are
(50:24):
just heroes. Thanks to our boy Conrad who helps us
out with some social content at the end of the
year getting some clips put out and uh and uh yeah,
just thank you and then thank you to you, buddy.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I just.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I'm a sad, sad boy tonight, but doing this thing
is always really special with you and I really appreciate
our friendship and uh that you know the podcast training't
gonna stop anytime soon.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
Hell yeah, buddy, obviously I echo your sentiments. Nothing wearing
to do it would be possible without our listeners. Everyone
that you know supports us that shares the podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
You know, word of mouth.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
Is still one of the most effective ways to help
support us. And we really do appreciate you guys and
obviously the team you know at the Cavs. I really
really cherish the fact that we haven't had to change
the podcast. We can sit here and we can be critical,
we can wear our hearts on our sleeves. We can
be you know, the Homers that we are, while still
(51:28):
making an effort to give you guys real analysis, right Like,
I think it's a really really special thing that we're
able to do, and it's exactly what was promised, And honestly,
it makes me want to be a better fan. It
makes me want to be a better analyst, right like.
It makes me want to attack this offseason and try
to become better as a podcaster and you know, further
(51:51):
my understanding of the game. And I don't think that
I would have that same drive if we weren't supported
the way that we are, both our listeners and the
people that you know root for us out there, as
well as the team itself.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
So we it's.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Crazy that we're saying that it still remains a very
surreal partnership, but I definitely think, you know, it's it's
really really meaningful to us, so big big thanks to
everybody that supports us in so many different ways, and
we will be doing our normal off season tradition of
taking a week off after going live after all of
(52:29):
these games, or at least recapping all of these games.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Hard.
Speaker 3 (52:32):
I know you got some travel ahead of you this weekend, right.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, across your fingers gang. On Tuesday, I'm going to
New York see if I win an Emmy.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Hopefully, by the time we are doing this podcast again,
you are doing it with an Emmy rooting for you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I'm gonna I'm gonna get a little floating shelf back there.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You know, you have to.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
You have to.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Any any sports podcaster that has an Emmy has to
put in the background.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It's even if it's not related to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, I had to write an acceptance speech. Isn't that crazy.
We're not gonna win, It's fine, but but yeah, cross
your fingers gang.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
In case we do, we are going to be rooting
for you, buddy. And then you know, yeah, as I said,
we will take next week off, we will come back
kind of do our recap of the season. I'm sure
at that time, you know, the team will have spoken,
Kobe will have spoken it, and we'll have some stuff
to talk about and we'll start tackling this off season. Man,
(53:26):
I'm obviously a little excited. I'm I'm ready to get
hurt again. Sea Bear season starts on Friday, so I
will be tapping into that. But yeah, this obviously sucks.
You don't want to see this season end this way.
But this isn't the end. This isn't the end of
the cast, This isn't the end of this group, this
isn't the end of the podcast. We are going to
come back better next year. I firmly believe that. Oh yeah,
(53:50):
rather big thanks again to everyone that supports us. If
you're watching live on YouTube, make sure you guys like
and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know one
we're going live. If you're listening via podcast and you
want to support us, leave us a rating or view, subscribe,
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(54:10):
you choose the support us, we really do appreciate it.
Make sure you guys are staying safe out there until
next time. Yo. Get
This crowd rises to its being what Carl slamming it
out car left wing free ball perfect?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Then he blocked the shot at the rim.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
How with the left.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Hand head of foul.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Welcome to Chasetown Podcast, part of the CAZ Media family.
I'm your host Justin Rohwan. The Chasetown is presented by Fubo,
the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch over three
hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV, including
FanDuel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost and no commitment.
Try for free at FuboTV dot com slash CAZ if
you can hear it in my voice. The Cleveland Cavaliers
have lost their series to the Indiana Pacers in five games.
(00:39):
The game was close, they had a lead, Indiana made
their push took a lead. The Cavs had a chance
to tie it up near the end of the game,
but ultimately came up short. The season is over. It
stings and joining me today to discuss it as my
co host, Carter Rodriguez.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Carter, Hey, nobuddy, you know I'm feeling melancholy. You spend
a lot of time investing into into this team, you know, Uh, Yeah.
I always think about the thing I said to No
I'm on this very podcast, our dear friend Jeff Nomena,
(01:18):
that if our significant others had a hobby that left
them this down, we would think they were out of
their minds. And uh, you know, that's just that's just
that's just how I feel right now. I feel sad,
Feel frustrated that, you know, they were banged up again
(01:42):
and you really saw that, Feel disappointed that all the
things that I was worried about them kind of came
back to bite. Feel stupid. We're kind of for believing,
you know, like you have all those kind of feelings
going through your brain. Yeah, yeah, just because like I really,
you know, it's hard one for me to get to
(02:04):
the point where I'm like, I think we might be
able to win a title this year, you know, like
that I take my time getting to that opinion. And
not that I was ever. I mean, I wasn't gonna
pick us in the next round if it was us
versus the Celtics, which you know that's its own thing. Yeah,
but yeah, you just I feel like you kind of
(02:24):
are going through the feelings right now, and it's it's sad.
I'm just sad Man.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
It definitely stings, and you know, one of the things
I was reflecting on, you know, it's always tough when
we go post game, you know, even if it's a win,
to collect your thoughts and you know, kind of have
that same level of preparedness we do with the other podcast.
But one of the things I was kind of reflecting
on is, you know, we've been doing this podcast since
twenty seventeen. This is the first time that you and
(02:54):
I have done a podcast where the Cavs didn't go
as far as we thought that they would at the
start of a season. You know, in twenty seventeen and eighteen,
we thought they'd make the finals. After Lebron left, we
didn't say that this team was going to be a
team that could make the playoffs or the postseason. You know,
in those following years, I think we kept the expectations
realistic and found things to care about during that time.
(03:16):
And you know, looking back at the last few years, yes,
our expectations would grow within the season when this team
would overachieve, you know, particularly that first year with Donald
Mitchell where we said, okay, you know our goal for
the season was to you know, make the playoffs, potentially
get home court, but now we feel like we can
actually win around So they've come up short of kind
(03:40):
of those escalated expectations that we've had.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
But this is the.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
First time where we came into a season saying we
think that this is a team that's going to make
the conference finals. Anything less than that is going to
be a failure. And I think, you know, all the
contacts aside, I think that that's what the season was
ultimately right, Like the regular season was success, It's why
I compartmentalize the two. But they failed to come up
(04:04):
to the level of their postseason goals. And I agree
with what Kenny Atkinson said before this game. I think
it was exactly the same kind of thing that we
were trying to say on the last podcast, which is
injuries were obviously a factor, but I think they had
enough to win this series. I think if this team
was fully healthy, it would have been It probably would
(04:25):
have been enough to cover up some of the bad
habits that we saw in this series. I think some
of the issues that we've seen from the Cavs, I
think they would have been able to out talent a
lot of that, and I think it would have changed
the complexion of the series. You know, you could sit
here and say, well, you know, the calls go differently
in game two. If the last two minutes is called properly,
you know you're in a two to two situation and
(04:45):
you feel better about it. I think they had enough
to win this series with who is available in the
state that they were available. It just reduced their margin
of error down to a level where some of the
mental mistakes, some of you know, those demon in some
of the issues that they've had in the past, came
bubbling up to the surface and it wasn't problems that
(05:05):
they could just out talent and overcome that way. So
I think that in some ways that makes this a
more informative series than it otherwise would have been, and
I think there is a lot of lessons to learn from.
This doesn't make it any easier, though, Like I understand
how people react in this situation, right like people are
(05:28):
going to lash out. You know, I look at some
prominent voices that have been vocal about the calves, and
I could have told you what their takeaway from this
game was going to be before the game even occurred,
before the series even occurred. If the Calves came up
short of expectations, like everyone's going to default to their priors,
and you know, my instinct is to not lash out
(05:50):
the team. It's to lash out at the people that
I disagree with. But none of that's healthy, right We're
all looking to redirect our anger and our frustration in
some other direction, and you know it's not healthy. But
I empathize with the fans, right, Like, this was a
lot of fun. This team gave you a lot of
reasons to believe and coming up short just things.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, I mean, and I really do think a lot
of uh not to go like full armchair psychologists here.
I do think a lot of the mad on the
timeline right now is finley disguised sad, you know, I think,
and I think that's always sometimes I.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Just wish very closely related.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I just wish fans could kind of know, like a
little bit better, like what their feelings are, and like,
you know, I think I and you know, that's just
part of it. And it's not like I didn't get
pissy during this series myself. You know, there's so many
things that I kind of keep going back to in
(06:56):
terms of what this team needs to take away and
I just think it's again, it's getting dragged into someone
else's style. Yeah, and I don't I'm not sure what
the answer is there, dude, especially with and I think,
(07:16):
you know, we have all off season to talk about
the changes that gain and cannot be made. But like,
you know, I don't know how you get past you know,
you start the third quarter so crisp, so sharp, and
then you just stop playing basketball. Yeah, you know. And
(07:37):
I know Indiana like cranked the pressure up, but I mean,
and I know that Darius could not move and it
got worse and worse over the course of the game
in a way that was really really hard to watch.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, and I know.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
That Donovan got you know, I either stepped on or
need a knee or something like that on that three
and and he had a he couldn't move that whole
quarter either. But it was the lack of commitment to anything.
You know, we have Max left wing Iso layup on
Andrew nimhard like like you know, not to go full
(08:15):
Patrick Ewing here, but like did you practice that shot?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Like is that what part of our offense has been
Max struce isoing against the best defender on the other
team's team against his set defense, Like that wasn't part
of this team's brand or identity all year. It wasn't
even their identity to have Donovan or Darius Iso against
the other team's best player on offense all year. So
(08:41):
like you can't even just tell me, like, well, those
guys are hurting. Someone's got to do it, Like, you know,
I just think their stylistic resilience is the number one
thing that like I thought I saw signs against Miami
that they were going to be able to do it,
And I just think the takeaway here is at Miami
was just disastrously bad and not even close to being
(09:05):
a playoff team, And we didn't learn anything from that series.
You know, I thought we learned a couple of things
we didn't And until they can answer that stylistic imprint question,
I just, you know, I just don't know if there's
a lot of value in looking at any one individual
(09:27):
blame focal point. You know, Jarrett's gonna catch a lot
of hell all summer because he had two really you know,
non bad games, non impactful games to close the series
the season, while guys like Thomas Bryant are feasting. But
like you know, We've always said that, like kind of
(09:49):
a Canarian the coal mine situation with this team and
you know a team you know, and I go back
to the Swiss Watch analogy I've made a bunch of times.
You know, one grain of sand just takes the second
best offense in the history of the sport in the
regular season two, Max Strus isowing Andrew Nimhart on the
(10:10):
wing with like eighteen seconds left on the shot clock. Yeah,
and like I just I wish I knew the answer
to that, but I don't right now.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Yeah, well, I think the un fun answer because it's
kind of boring and it doesn't really say a whole
lot is when it comes to, you know, ability to
maintain style of play, to impose your will and all that. Like,
I think that's something that they're either going to figure
out or they're not. Like it's ultimately going to be
(10:41):
something that through the experience, through you know, this failure,
through their time together, that they eventually figure that out
or it's going to be the reason why this team
doesn't win a championship And doesn't you know, get as
far in the postseason as we want them to write,
they are going to underachieve in the postseason until that
(11:02):
aspect of things is figured out. And that was one
of the things that Kenny Atkinson talked about post game.
You know, he said that what they need to get
over is that mental part of the game. He said
that the next jump, the next leap that we have
to make is that mental strength. And you know, I
think some of that comes down to chemistry and continuity, right, Like,
that's one of the things of you know, when core
(11:24):
members of a team get to play together for an
extended period of time, you know, you can have those
hiccups along the way, but usually when you kind of
iron that out and you get to that level where
it's second nature, where you know where everyone's going to be,
you recognize when someone hasn't gone enough touches for an
(11:46):
extended period of time and do the right things to
continue to impose your style of play. Like usually that's
the kind of thing that takes time, right, Like, I
think back to you know, Yokichen, Jamal Murray, those guys
took seven years together, but before they won a championship.
You know, uh, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, you know,
both of them were kind of born on third base
to some extent being drafted to an Eastern Conference final team.
(12:09):
But even with that, you know, it took them six
years to get over the hump. That doesn't mean it's
going to happen for this team, but I think that
that is in fact the next step. Right, Like we
you are able to bank on some you know, physical
maturity and development, particularly when it comes to guys like
Darius Garland and Evan Mobley who aren't in their primes yet.
(12:31):
But I think as a collective, they need to get
over that hump. And that's one of the things, honestly,
before we continue on with the Cavs, we need to
credit the Indiana Pacers for that. They really did impose
their style of play. They imposed you know, you felt
like it was an Indiana Pacers game out there.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
And you know in every playoff series of the of
the Halliburton era, they've done this.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Yeah, they know who they are as a team. They
stick with that style of play. Even if you get
them out of that style of play for five six minutes,
they are going to revert back to it. Right, Like
it's water finding its level right anytime the the you know,
the the boat gets rocked, that water is going to
level out and they are going to be playing Indiana
Pacers basketball. And like I said, even with all the injuries,
(13:19):
I think the Cavs had enough, and the way that
the Indiana Pacers played ensured that it wasn't enough, and
they need to be credited for that.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, I mean, I just I'm sorry. I don't think
this Indie team is more talented. I think they have
players who are very talented. I think this was a
tough matchup for the Cavs because of all the there
you know, all their pressure they put on you at
the point of attack defensively, because of their five out.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Offense, which I think was a big part of the
whole Jared thing, to be honest. And when we've seen
him struggle, it's when a team's going five out and
he's been nasa to switch and guard point guards and
be taken away from the basket. Usually that's when you
start to see, oh the rebounds dropped. Well, he's also
standing out of three point line for a lot of
(14:10):
the game.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yep. But like you know, I mean, Thomas Bryant killed
them in this series. Obi Topping killed them in the series.
Calves didn't have any of that you know, and I
don't think that's because INDI's bench or deep or mid
you know, middle class of their rotation are so much
(14:32):
more talented than the Calves. I think it's like the
inverse of the canary in the coal mine. Like Indiana
Pacer basketball does what the Calves Calves basketball did in
the regular season, which is makes things easy. Think about
how many times we said over the regular season about
you know, Okoro having good stretches, Wait, having good stretches,
(14:57):
you know, Jerome going nuts, and and you know what
did I say over and over and over again. I said,
It's easy to play Calves basketball right now. It's not
hard to be a Cleveland Cavalier. And sure looked hard
in the series, and for the Pacers it just felt
you know, Obi Toppins getting to do Doctor j scooped
(15:18):
layups and hell right now amazing. And you know, everyone
up and down just seemed so comfortable in what their
job was for so much of the series. And I
do think that should be a real like wake up
call for this team, because again it's not you know,
(15:39):
I think even me and you are going to look
at this and go, we need more, we need better
and it's a natural reaction. But it's like just play better.
Like sometimes it's that simple. I don't think the Calves
played more than one. You know, how many good quarters
of basketball did the Calves play in this series? Not enough?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
You know, uh, you know how committed were they to
who they were? Not enough? And like that is where
I just kind of like stall out in trying to
figure out where to go because it's like, you had
enough talent, you had the coach of the year, you
didn't have health, which sucks, but like you didn't play
(16:25):
well yep. And some of that is just like shooting.
I mean, I'm i They're gonna be under thirty percent
on wide open threes for the series.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, without a doubt.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, it was at twenty prior to this game.
I can almost guarantee you that that went down tonight.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah. So and so like I don't know, man, Like
I don't know what you do with uh we we
are a team of good shooters that can't shoot in
the playoffs. Like some of this stuff is just you know,
we're at the hard problem to solve portion you know,
of the of the of the team life cycle, it's
(17:05):
not really that hard. To be in a rebuild, you
take swings on young players, you you try to find
an identity. It's hard to get out of a rebuild,
but the choice that individual choices are easy. You take on.
You win as many trades as you can get, as
you can win. You leverage your position as a team
(17:27):
that's not a competitive contender to find all these incremental moves.
But like, we're at the stage where I'm like, I
don't know what you're supposed to do. I don't I
don't see the structural change because I really do think
at the end of the day, and I'm it's the
least satisfying thing for a podcaster who has to talk
(17:48):
all summer to say, which is I think they just
need to play better. Yeah, and and until they do,
I just I don't know where to go with that. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
It comes down to channeling that experience challenge, you know,
finding the mental toughness within this failure, within what happened
this season, you know, the self reflection and doing what.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Needs to be done.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
And that's not something that's easy to talk about, right,
Like you could sit here and say, oh, look look
how they shot from the free throw line. They need
to shoot five thousand free throws a day, and that's what's.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Going to do it.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Like, you know, you can kind of say that stuff
to make yourself feel better, but it really, as Kenny said,
it comes down to that mental aspect of the game.
It comes down to getting over that hump to to
find ways to be more resilient where you know, injuries
aren't taking them out to the same extent that they are.
And you know, some of this is bad luck, right, Like,
(18:46):
it sucks that it all hit. At the same time,
it sucks that, you know, you look at what the
Indiana Pacers were able to do physically. This is different
than the last couple of years. You know, like people
just see the word physicality, they're like, oh, you know,
same Calves, blah blah blah. This is completely different. Four
out of five games in this series, the Calves absolutely
(19:07):
dominant dominated Indy on the offensive glass and points in
the paint. That's that's what the issue was for the
most part. Yeah, that's what the Calves issue was in
some of these past series, right Like that's where they
got beat up by the Knicks. That's you know, that
was the discussion against the Orlando Magic Boston that wasn't
the case because it was you know, it was just
(19:29):
you know gang, yeah, like, you know, that's not what
it's been. This was completely different. Indy was giving you
pressure and physicality on the perimeter. They recognized that the
Calves guards were limited. Mitchell was playing through you know,
that ankle and calf. Throughout this entire series, he's been
dealing with it. You know, it's some form of something,
(19:52):
you know, since the beginning of March. So we're at
two and a half months now of you know, Mitchell
struggling uh physically and and finding ways to be effective.
But between Mitchell being limited, between Darius being limited, and
Ty just not being able to turn the corner, versus
that pressure at all, it completely changed the complexion of
the Calves offense. And you know, one of the ways
(20:15):
to break that is playing through the bigs. That's what
we talked about on the last podcast. That's how the
Cavs started this game. To their credit, they were using
Evan Mobley and Jared Allen as the roleman and not
only were they scoring individually, it was generating clean looks.
But Indy started taking that away. They started cheating off
of Mitchell and Garland, at times they were treating them
(20:36):
like Isaac Okoro out there, where they were basically daring
them to shoot because everything that those guys were thrown
up was coming up short. And you know, that's one
of those things where you know, I can sit here
and I still think that there were ways to get
the Bigs involved. I think you could have continued to
find ways to get them the ball downhill. I think
they went away from it. I would have liked to
(20:58):
see them try and fail more than they did with
what ind was doing, you know, defensively. But at the
same time, a big part of this equation is they
were able to cheat off two of the most dynamic
guards in the NBA, one of the best backcourts in
the NBA. And you know Darius is out there shooting,
(21:18):
what did he shoot? Four sixteen, Mitchell eight of twenty five.
Neither of them could hit from three. That's going to
mess up your spacing. I'm sorry, it just is. That's
going to be part of the equation here. So I
still think that what they did going away from the
bigs is alarming. You know, last year or you know,
(21:39):
coming into training camp, Kenny apparently had you know, a
reduced shot clock where they were playing with an eighteen
second shot clock, and training camp to make sure that
they were getting to their sets quicker, that they played
with pace and tempo. The rule this year going into
training camp is nobody gets to take a shot until
Evan Mobley's touched the basketball at least once. That should
be the training camp philosophy. But I do think when
(22:02):
you are diagnosing what went wrong here, the limited physical
state that Donnald Mitchell and Darius Garland were in has
to be part of the equation if you're going to
have an honest conversation.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, and sure that's all true, and yes, Indy was
able to dig harder on these on these roles for
Evan and Jarrett. But I think that's where I'm the
most disappointed, because you mentioned, you know, this isn't the
physicality problems of two years ago. They are winning at
(22:35):
the points the paying battle in this series. They are
getting to the line in this series. They are getting
offensive rebounds in the series. But it's almost more painful
to know that against New York it wasn't really an
option to go to the biggs because neither of those
guys were ready to help. And against Indy, they kind
(23:00):
of just didn't try. I'm sorry, I just don't think
they tried enough. They and you know, Evan finishes this
postseason never attempting more than thirteen shots in a game
across the nine games. And when I say they don't try,
I'm not saying they didn't, you know, in those literal
(23:21):
since they tried. Yeah, but they only tried one way.
They only tried running pick and roll and handoffs, and
those are the things that are the easiest to cheat
off of because especially with limited mobility guards, because you
can just grab them on the way around and you know,
(23:43):
and blow up the play. Where are clear out post ups?
Where are inverted pick and rolls? Where are big, big
pick and rolls? Did they run a single Mobile Allen
pick and roll in this series? No shot? Did they
ever just clear out and let Mobley get a post
(24:04):
touch against Pascal Siakam, who he consistently drew fouls on,
consistently was able to attack and draw help. Like like, yeah,
you can call out that that they were cheating off
of Mobile and Daria or I'm sorry, Donovan and Darius,
and they were, but the Cabs kind of let them
(24:26):
have it their way. Where they got to cheat off
of them and the Cabs weren't even getting a parade
of wide open threes. Like like the offense wasn't healthy
in this series at the end of the day. Yep,
it just wasn't. And and that's not a shooting variance
problem if they were trying all these different ways to
(24:49):
draw the help and you know, uh and Aaron Nesmith
had to help from the weak side corner to crash
down on an Evan Mobley post up and we got
them in rotation that way. I can kind of live
that way, pick and roll and dribble handoffing Tyrese Halliburton,
(25:12):
who was really pretty excellent defensively, I thought in this series,
you know, stayed connected, leveraged his size, got key shot
blocks when it mattered, Like it just felt like hitting
your head against the brick wall brick wall. And you
don't get to do that strategy when Darius and Donovan
(25:34):
can't play the way they want to and Tis Rome's
having the worst you know, five games of his career,
so like that is I think That's where I'm frustrated,
and like when I'm looking at like the tactics of
what you know, what they can do. That's better than
just play better. It's like, hey, you're you've got to
(25:56):
change your attack. You've got to change the way you're
going to do this. You know, there were so many
plays where even when they got a switch and it
was Nie Smith on Evan and Evan was like had
a foot in the paint, they didn't even look about
it at an entry pass, you know, like and until
they do that kind of stuff. Like the whole freaking
point of the Evan Mobley experience this season was to
(26:21):
diversify your game in a way that made not this happen.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
To make an offense more playoff proof.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, like you could have used Tarry Easen the way
that Evan was used in this series. Like, and that's
and that I think is probably what I will leave
as my like, Like, I mean, my biggest disappointment is
that they lost the way they lost, but like at
a tactical level, my biggest disappointment is the usage of Evan.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, honestly, that that was the thought that I hadn't
really got to Like, I like the way that you
described it there right where you know, it's different than
the past because there were tools left in the tool
belt that were unused, right, and it's just crazy to
have tools at your disposal and not use it, Which
is why I take advantage of zoom Ai Companion. Because
only you can do your best work, zoom Ai Companion
(27:12):
can help you do the rest, like automatically taking notes,
answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to your coworker.
Available at no additional cost with eligible paid plans. Were
happy with zoom Ai Companion. I do say, like, I
don't want it to get lost. You know, the effort
that they gave in this game overall, like I thought,
(27:33):
they lost control obviously in the third quarter. That was
very frustrating. It was frustrating to see that lead evaporate.
I appreciate the fact that they did continue to fight
and you know, have a chance to tie it up
near the end. You know, obviously Mitchell missing those three
free throws was a killer, particularly after you know he
(27:54):
hit the three right, like, you know, all of that
stuff's a killer. But when you see you know, Mitchell
limping out there, but still, like you said before, when
he'd get knocked down, he'd bounce right back up. When
you see Darius Garland limping, you know, the other games,
it took a little while for him to be limping.
(28:15):
This one he started like it was very clear that,
you know, he was in a lot of pain. I
was actually really surprised that, despite the fact that, you know,
he was on a bum wheel the entire time, he
moved well laterally defensively, Like it wasn't like I'm saving
myself for the offensive end. I'm just going to give
you a burst on that end. I felt like the
effort on the defensive end was more consistent, right, Like
(28:38):
he was staying in front of Andrew Nemhart, you know,
drawing that offensive foul because Nemhart couldn't turn the corner
on him and pushed him with the arm right he
was competing in those switches and the mismatches. I didn't
feel like that was something that Indie ever really exploited
when he.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Was out there.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
So I got to give him credit, you know, for
competing the way he did. I got to give him
and Donovan a lot of credit for how they competed,
because you know, you can't sit here and say, hey,
you know, whatever you are able to give the team,
go out and do it and then be upset that
it doesn't look the way that you wanted to look.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, and I think Donovan leaves this run, you know.
I I think last year everyone left Donovan's run being
like that's that guy. Yeah, And I think me and
you were like, I mean, he is, but I didn't
(29:33):
love the way we got there. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
It was in a healthy offensive ecosystem, like he was
doing everything he could to to you know, drag the team,
but you know it, it was tough.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
I think this year I was just purely pretty darn
impressed by him. He was the only one who consistently
made Indiana react to him in this series and like, yeah,
he does hold you know. I I think he takes
(30:09):
some accountability for Evan not getting the ball, you know,
as much as I would have liked to see and
stuff like that. But just overall, his physicality is you know,
a series where he can't shoot and he just responds
by getting, you know, to the lion like fifteen times
(30:30):
a game. I didn't know if he had that kind
of series in him, yeah, you know, and really hard
earned rim attacks over and over and over again. And
so I do think Donovan kind of comes out of
this feeling, you know, smelling the best, despite obviously the
(30:52):
way the way it ends.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
I've been really really impressed with him, you know, all
all season long. I think, you know, the sacrifice that
he's shown has been incredibly impressive. I thought, you know,
there were times where you know, you can have your gripes.
I felt like off ball defense was not that it
wasn't his strongest series on that end of the court,
(31:18):
but it's hard to complain when you know that the
guy he's dealing with lower body ailments, whether you know
it's the ankle, the calf, everything's been you know, bothering him,
and you know, I think one of the things that
I was happy that Kenny addressed in the post game issue,
I think it was Joe Barden then asked him the
question basically about, you know, the team having their minutes
(31:42):
managed all season, was conditioning a factor? Were were they
in kind of the playoff shape that you wanted? And
I think it has more to do like we couldn't
even really see if this team was capable of a
minute ramp up in the playoffs just because they were,
you know, playing hurt for the competitive games. It's not
like you're going to play the guys forty minutes against
(32:05):
Miami when you're up forty points, So that's just kind
of a you know, there's.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
No point in that.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
But Kenny did say, you know what we had heard
that you know, there was a plan to ramp up
minutes after the All Star break, but you know, between
this grilling schedule that they had some of the nagging
injuries that you know, Donovan was dealing with at the time,
and the fact that a lot of their wins there
were up twenty and you know, twenty thirty points made
it harder for them to do the ramp up. He said,
(32:32):
we only kind of did an okay job of that,
and I think that's going to be one of the
things they need to reflect on. Remember, I said at
the start of the season, when they were managing the
minutes and the minutes were so damn low, I said,
you know, one of the things that came to mind
was concern about how that used to affect the Milwaukee Bucks,
where Budenholzer would manage the minutes and you could tell
(32:53):
that Giannis would get tired in the playoffs. I don't
know how much of a factor that was in this,
but I think when you're doing that self reflecting and assessing,
you have to ask, is there something we can do
to put ourselves in a better position physically for when
it comes to the playoffs, Because.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, I don't freaking know. I just don't know, you know,
Like Darius, it's turf toe, yeah, you know, like that's
that's Evan lands On, Miles Turner's ankle, you know, Donovan
just Donovan is like I mean, every injury Donovan's ever
had is a heavy usage injury.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So it's like, I just don't know if you can
cook up a better game plan.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Yeah, and like and like this is the first time
Darius has got hurt in the playoffs, right, Like last
year it's the after effects of the jaw issue and
you know, everything he was dealing with the family and
stuff like that. So like, I I understand what you're saying,
Like some of this stuff is fluke that you can't control, right, Like,
you know, things certain I just don't.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Think I'm gonna go back to just like be better,
like don't get guessed, Like, don't get beat up, don't
get hit first every time, Diversify your offensive game plan
in a way that allows you to not require Evan
or require Donovan to try to brush off Andrew Neimhard
(34:17):
nine straight screens in a row every possession, like they're
tired because they're playing a tiring style that has them
on the back foot. Like yeah, Indy, I didn't see
Indy tired. And it's not because Haliburton played forty three
(34:39):
minutes a game. Andy didn't look tired because they one
are used to play like this in terms of what
they're doing on the on the court, and because they
dictated the freaking terms yea they play. It's tiring to
get to be dragged around by someone and try to disconnect.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
I would absolutely love to try to turn Tyrese Haliburn
into a score inside the three point line. Would run
him off that damn three point line, turn him into
a score. Has he ever beat a team that way?
It's always you know, finding guys as a distributor and
that step back to going to his left, like he is.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Able to shoot that from forty feet. It's what he does.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Uh, didn't make them uncomfortable, but you know, when it
comes to you know, better physical being prepared for the
physicality of the playoffs and being in you know, peak
shape at that time. You're right, Like you the issues
that Donovan has had has been high usage type stuff, right,
Like it's it's a bit of a consistent trend for him.
(35:43):
He's when he comes to the playoffs, he's usually dealing
with something with his lower body. You know, I think
the Knick series was the only time it wasn't at
that time it was I believe a broken finger on
his left hand. But you look at the last four
years of him in the playoffs, you know, including the
year prior to coming to Cleveland. What do you think
he's shooting from three carter and I think this has
(36:06):
solely to do with lower body wear and tearor he's
shooting thirty percent, he is eighty of two point fifty nine. Like, yep,
that's it's been a consistent thing for him. And you know,
to his credit, he has found ways to be that dude,
to be someone that you know, has a historic streak
(36:28):
of game one storing, you know, thirty points that that
past Michael Jordan. He has been that dude. I'm very,
very happy with the effort that we got from him
in these playoffs. But this all comes back to you.
We're sitting here trying to win a championship with a
team that doesn't have a certified top five type talent.
(36:51):
That means we need to get every guy that was,
you know, an All Star in all NBA consideration this year,
namely our top three to all be maximized as much
as possible. And I think when we've seen with Donovan
is that to maximize him, you got to make sure
that you are managing his load so he's able to
be that knockout punch, not somebody that's pulling the cart
(37:14):
up hill the whole time. And I think, as you said,
that comes down to making sure that Evan Mobley is
involved in taking a load off these guys. That means,
you know, Darius has to play a major part in this,
because we have seen when Donovan's trying to make up
for the absence of Darius Garland, things usually go poorly
for him physically, whether that was that twelve and four
(37:35):
stretch that they had last year where he missed the
entire post All Star break stretch, or you know, playing
through these first two games against Indiana without Darius, like
it takes a toll on him. And you know, whether
that's Darius and Evan or just you know, better backup
point guard play. I think all of that needs to
be taken into consideration when we look at this afseason.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
To your point, I mean, when did the Cavs offense
look at best in this series? I would argue it's
when Donovan got catch and shoot three point attempts yep,
you know. And when did his jumper look the best
when he got catch and shoot three point attempts? You know.
Some of that as Darius just not being there, Ty
(38:17):
not be in there. Some of it is the stylistic stuff,
not going to Evan, not using the muscles you trained
up all year. Some of its indies awesome. I think
they're going to make the finals.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I think they're they're better than the next like the
Knicks are advancing primarily because of you.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Know that injury.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
I'm well, I wouldn't say that they were going to
win that game and go up three to one, and
you have to give them a lot of credit. They're
better than I thought they. I thought they had no
shot in that series. And yes I'm.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Wrong, again more to do with Boston than them, but
it might.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
But you still got to give him. I mean, talk
about a spot to give credit. But like in terms
of giving credit to the Pacers. It's funny I left
that Knick series feeling like this Calves team has a
lot of soul searching to do and a lot of
like structural improvements to make really more the latter than
(39:16):
the former. Everyone else wanted soul searching. I just wanted
a roster that made sense. You wanted a supporting cast
that you know. But I didn't leave that series thinking
about the ways I thought the Calves needed to emulate
the New York Knicks. I'm leaving this series thinking about
ways that the Caves should be emulating the Indiana Pacers.
I agree, surely, And I don't think there's a nicer
(39:38):
thing I can say to the Indiana Pacers than that.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Yeah, they're more than the sum of their parts, like
quite a bit more. What they are able to do
defensively with the personnel they have is impressive. Their defense
is better than their personnel. I would argue even their
offense is better than their personnel. Right, Like, guys that
are so so shooters are really putting in a position
to succeed. We need to get to there because I
(40:04):
think that this team is capable of doing that. I
think any team is capable of doing that. But I
don't think that they were more than there's some of
the parts. I think they had really really awesome parts.
And when things were going easy in the regular season
that came through. They had a ton of depth. They
had a ton of top end talent. Right basically our
pre series diagnosis against the series in the Miami Heat,
(40:27):
why did I pick a sweep? Well, because the Cavs
probably have at least the best two players in the series,
maybe three, and the Heat's bench is going up against
the two of the top three six Men of the
Year candidates. We had the advantage in the starting lineup
and we had the advantage on the bench, and that's
exactly what we saw in that series. We can't be
(40:47):
in a position where we are less than are some
of our parts, because when you're trying to win a
championship without a bona fide top five player, you need
to be that. When you saw the Detroit Piston win
and beat the Lakers, that's how they did it. When
when you you know, even I don't want to say
the Toronto Raptors, that's too weird, and you know people
(41:11):
love to credit why, so I won't go there. But
when when you have seen teams like this historically go
out and win, they are more than some of their parts.
And that's one of the things that the cast need
to get to.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, oh man, I'm sad. Uh you know, it's just uh,
you know, the one thing everyone's gonna roll their eyes at,
you know, pontificating Carter doing his thing that he always does.
But like I will say that this is why you
(41:46):
can't be a results based sports fan. You just can't
because it's too painful. Like I feel a lot of
pain right now, but at least I had fun the
whole way, you know, and I found the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (42:03):
I don't think the people that were miserable the whole
way being like do it in the playoffs are less
miserable now. I think they're probably just as angry as
they would be if they had some fun this year.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
And and frankly, I actually don't think there was that
much of that this year. I think most people just
it was such a fun ride that even the cynics
and the skeptics got on board or just shut the
hell up, you know, you know, And I would say
it's a healthy split, honestly. But and now, and I
(42:33):
think some of those folks there, I think a lot
of people's reaction like shit, dude. My reaction just at
the beginning of this podcast was like, I feel stupid
for believing, you know, but like I do think it's
a really bad impulse to let take root because like,
(42:54):
the fun is the believing. The fun is the excitement.
Like I don't like like, I'm not on the court,
I'm not a coach, I'm not a I'm not a
front office member. The only thing that's fun about this
is the fun is the is the belief is the
journey and uh.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
And there's nothing more satisfying than a team you care
about overcoming things and growing, right, like seeing the journey,
see going through.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
The issues, Like that's that's what it's.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
About for me.
Speaker 3 (43:27):
And they might not overcome this, right, like the inability
to become more than some of their parts in this setting,
to impose their style of play upon the opponent and
dictate the terms of engagement. That might ultimately be what
though it holds them back, But I I care about
the problem solving. I care about them trying to overcome that.
(43:48):
And I'm Carter. I gotta be honest. I'm ready to
run through a wall again because I just saw Donald
Mitchell's quote postgame.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Have you seen it yet?
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I did? You can you can pare phrase that if
you'd like.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Yeah, he said, y'all are going to write us off,
but we'll be back, and hell y, I Donnie, Hell yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
That's the energy you want to see at the end
of the day. I do really think that these guys
do believe in each other, do have that kind of camaraderie,
and like that is the last that The other big
challenge at this point is is the is maintaining collective
(44:28):
belief because these guys it's over. This era will be
over the second these guys don't think they can do it. Yeah.
You know, we've seen so many good teams, really really
quality competitive teams that just the second they lost it.
(44:56):
And it's not an individual belief. I think all these
guys are always gon Yeah. NBA players are wired like psychos. Yeah,
they're all going to believe in themselves individually. But if
they lose belief in the journey, well then you might
as well just start over. Yeah, because you know that's
the only thing I'm not ever gonna that's the only
time it's not going to be fun for me is
(45:20):
watching a team that doesn't believe in itself anymore. So,
like that Donovan quote is important for me as a
fan going through this experience.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
I completely agree, And you know, I think this team
has a lot of reasons to still believe.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
You know, the one thing that we have.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
Consistently heard is, you know, this team will go as
far as Evan Mobley is willing to take us or
able to take us. I do think reflecting on this
series and reflecting back on the whole year, I think
this wasn't just something that changed in the playoffs where hey,
you know, we kind of neglected Evan for stretches of
(45:59):
the game. We could have continued to feed him. We
could have used that to, you know, overcome pressure that
teams are throwing at us. I think there were times
throughout this entire season where Evin kind of would go
on the back burner. He would have great quarters, we
didn't consistently feed him. That was a habit from the
regular season that carried forward to the playoffs. I think
(46:21):
we need to put our money where our mouth is
when it comes to that, where you know, even if
it costs regular season games, which we said that last
year where we're like, we gotta let Evan explore the space,
and you know, his improvement needs to matter even if
it costs you some regular season games. We said that
going into last year and they won sixty four. So
(46:41):
I don't think that Evan Mobiley, you know, being a
larger focal point and that sustained point of emphasis is
something that's going to make this team worse. I do
think it actually needs to be a sustained point of emphasis.
I think we have not gone out, as I said
on the last podcast, we haven't had a five to
(47:02):
twenty Evan Mobley game where you know, we just continue
to try to feed them and it just didn't work out.
That has never occurred. And I think in the regular
season you were able to get away with going away
from Evan Mobley because Darius and Donovan were so damn good,
because Ty was so damn good, because you know, DeAndre
Hunter was coming in and giving you a lot off
(47:22):
the bench. You were able to get away with that
because this team had so many options. But when it
comes to the playoffs, your star players matter more than ever,
and Evan Mobley needs to be a sustained important part
of that equation.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. Man, sucks. Sucks to lose.
But you know, before we sign off, I do think
we should just get get around to thank you, thank you,
to wait wait wait, wait, you got thank you.
Speaker 3 (47:56):
I do have one more thing I want to touch on. Okay,
I do think it actually is really important and if
we're going to be emotional and vulnerable here, but let's
just go through it all because what happened with Jason
Tatum absolutely sucks. I think it is terrible for the NBA,
and as a Cavs fan that wanted to see this
team tested against the healthy Celtics. I want a healthy
(48:17):
Calves versus healthy Celtics. It looks like we're not going
to get that opportunity. It bums me the hell out
seeing him, you know, on the ground, yelling, knowing that
the injury itself not that painful, but the emotion that
you go through in that spot, it's just absolutely terrible.
I feel for Celtics fans, you know, I enjoy beating them.
(48:39):
I want to see Boston fail, but I don't want
to see it like that. It really really sucks, and
that's going to be something that changes the calculus of
this offseason, right, like when we're evaluating how the Caves
stack up against the East, Jason Tatum not being on
Boston next year is going to be a big part
of it, and it's going to change their team building.
(49:01):
It It just sucks, man, I I feel sick. You know,
We've been talking about how the NBA needs to market
it's the younger stars and continue to push that next generation.
As you know, the Lebron staff all kind of age out,
and Tatum was going to be a big part of that.
Even if it was someone that I was rooting against.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
I absolutely hate it.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
And it's unfortunately it's going to be relevant to the
Kavs off season, Like I think it is something that
that's going to have to be part of the calculus here.
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Yeah. Well, it's obviously a bumber. You hope you know
he comes back right, just you know, it's just not
what you want to see at the end of the day.
But you're right, it's going to be a factor in
how I mean, it's a landscape changer for the for
the NBA. One of those kinds of injuries. So can
(49:53):
I get to some thank you real quick? Yes?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
I just wanted to to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
Uhh, just big thanks to our listeners for the over
the course of the season. It's been a blast. Thanks
to those folks, especially those that hang on the YouTube
chat with us, you know almost you know, twice a week.
Uh and and hang out with us. Thank you to
uh Do the Calves for all their support and taking
good care of us. Matt Old Brenna. You guys are
(50:24):
just heroes. Thanks to our boy Conrad who helps us
out with some social content at the end of the
year getting some clips put out and uh and uh yeah,
just thank you and then thank you to you, buddy.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
I just.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I'm a sad, sad boy tonight, but doing this thing
is always really special with you and I really appreciate
our friendship and uh that you know the podcast training't
gonna stop anytime soon.
Speaker 3 (50:55):
Hell yeah, buddy, obviously I echo your sentiments. Nothing wearing
to do it would be possible without our listeners. Everyone
that you know supports us that shares the podcast.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
You know, word of mouth.
Speaker 3 (51:07):
Is still one of the most effective ways to help
support us. And we really do appreciate you guys and
obviously the team you know at the Cavs. I really
really cherish the fact that we haven't had to change
the podcast. We can sit here and we can be critical,
we can wear our hearts on our sleeves. We can
be you know, the Homers that we are, while still
(51:28):
making an effort to give you guys real analysis, right Like,
I think it's a really really special thing that we're
able to do, and it's exactly what was promised, And honestly,
it makes me want to be a better fan. It
makes me want to be a better analyst, right like.
It makes me want to attack this offseason and try
to become better as a podcaster and you know, further
(51:51):
my understanding of the game. And I don't think that
I would have that same drive if we weren't supported
the way that we are, both our listeners and the
people that you know root for us out there, as
well as the team itself.
Speaker 2 (52:06):
So we it's.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Crazy that we're saying that it still remains a very
surreal partnership, but I definitely think, you know, it's it's
really really meaningful to us, so big big thanks to
everybody that supports us in so many different ways, and
we will be doing our normal off season tradition of
taking a week off after going live after all of
(52:29):
these games, or at least recapping all of these games.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
Hard.
Speaker 3 (52:32):
I know you got some travel ahead of you this weekend, right.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Yeah, across your fingers gang. On Tuesday, I'm going to
New York see if I win an Emmy.
Speaker 3 (52:42):
Hopefully, by the time we are doing this podcast again,
you are doing it with an Emmy rooting for you, buddy.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
I'm gonna I'm gonna get a little floating shelf back there.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
You know, you have to.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
You have to.
Speaker 3 (52:51):
Any any sports podcaster that has an Emmy has to
put in the background.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
It's even if it's not related to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
Yeah, I had to write an acceptance speech. Isn't that crazy.
We're not gonna win, It's fine, but but yeah, cross
your fingers gang.
Speaker 3 (53:06):
In case we do, we are going to be rooting
for you, buddy. And then you know, yeah, as I said,
we will take next week off, we will come back
kind of do our recap of the season. I'm sure
at that time, you know, the team will have spoken,
Kobe will have spoken it, and we'll have some stuff
to talk about and we'll start tackling this off season. Man,
(53:26):
I'm obviously a little excited. I'm I'm ready to get
hurt again. Sea Bear season starts on Friday, so I
will be tapping into that. But yeah, this obviously sucks.
You don't want to see this season end this way.
But this isn't the end. This isn't the end of
the cast, This isn't the end of this group, this
isn't the end of the podcast. We are going to
come back better next year. I firmly believe that. Oh yeah,
(53:50):
rather big thanks again to everyone that supports us. If
you're watching live on YouTube, make sure you guys like
and subscribe. Click that notification bell so you know one
we're going live. If you're listening via podcast and you
want to support us, leave us a rating or view, subscribe,
unsubscribe to subscribe and help cook those books. You want
to be part of Chase downs exclusive discord chat, sendy
screenshow view to Chase Downpod at gmail dot com. However
(54:10):
you choose the support us, we really do appreciate it.
Make sure you guys are staying safe out there until
next time. Yo. Get
Hosts And Creators
Carter Rodriguez
Justin Rowan
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