CBA Crash Course with Keith Smith

Keith Smith of Spotrac joins Justin and Carter to discuss the NBA Finals and what they've learned from this season. From there they dive in to the upcoming new league year and break down the nitty gritty of what the Cavs can and can't do as a likely second apron team. How the team can improve, what challenges they'll face and more. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to its being.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
What Carl slam it? Oh, Carl left wing free ball.

Speaker 3 (00:06):
Perfect pop, then he let block the shot at the rim.

Speaker 4 (00:12):
How with the left hand and of foul.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves
media family. I'm your host, Justin Rohan. The Chase Doown
is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves.
Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports
and TV, including FanDuel Sports Network without cable. There's no
cost and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV dot
com Slash Calves, no cost, no commitment, and no more.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
NBA basketball.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
The Oklahoma City Thunder are your NBA champions. Incredible final
series between them and Indiana. A bit of a heartbreaker
there with Tyrese Haliburn. We will discuss that those finals,
what it means for the Calves, and some you know,
CBA questions that Carter and I have with our very
special guest today. But first I have to introduce my

(00:55):
co host, Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, buddy.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
I'm doing good. We'll dive in the finals with our
with our lovely guest, a little bit, but uh, you know,
can't help but feel a little sad about the way
it went. You know, I I'm not sure I felt
quite so sad for a player as I felt for
Tyrese Haliverton when he blew that tire and you just
knew right away he knew right away. But you know,

(01:19):
it was still a great finals, as as I've mentioned,
an aspirational finals, that kind of show that if you,
if you, if you build your team the right way,
you you just keep hitting doubles and triples and doubles
and triples eventually, uh and and you you get the
right kind of guys, you can you can win a title,

(01:40):
or you can or you can compete for a title.
So definitely a great showcase for the sport.

Speaker 4 (01:46):
I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I would say that was the saddest non Calves injury
that I've ever watched, And you know that says a lot.
I'm usually a very petty individual, and when a team
knocked out the Calves, I'm not usually rooting for them,
but they won me over and you know, that Holly
injury was heartbreaking. I'm still kind of reeling from it.
It was in shell shock after it happened, but we
will discuss that and a whole lot more with our

(02:09):
special guest today, Keith Smith, joining us again, now officially
a front of the Podcast's second appearance on the pod.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Is this only two?

Speaker 4 (02:16):
I believe too.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
I might be wrong, but I'm getting squirrely in my
old age.

Speaker 4 (02:21):
He did help help us out here.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
Maybe it's at least too.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Definitely at least too. It's definitely at least too. And
I should mention you are with the spo track. I know,
you know there's debate about how to pronounce it. Is
it spow track? Is it spot track? I think spo
track makes more sense because you're tracking sports financially. Answer
help me out.

Speaker 5 (02:42):
Here, it's actually spot track. So like you say it,
like the word spot and the word track and smush
them together spot track.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
Okay, I like it.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
You know, it's it's been such a big part of
my life and resource as a sports fan. That's a
little ridiculous that I haven't, you know, nailed down how
to pronounce it. But either way, we're really really excited
to have you on here.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
I appreciate it. I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
Let's start off before you know, we dive into some
of the questions we have about the CBN. We really
appreciate you coming on to answer those. And you know,
Carter and I are definitely casuals when it comes to this.
We rely on experts. The same thing goes for the draft.
We will have a post draft podcast talking about whoever
the cast pick. But at this point, when you know
you had those late seconds and you have no idea

(03:29):
who's going to be available, who's going to be picked,
it's probably better to wait until after the fact to
break that down. But just looking at these finals and
you know, the playoffs in totality, is there kind of
an overarching takeaway that you have from this season, the
kind of one thing that sticks with you or you're
going to remember or a lesson you're going to take
moving forward.

Speaker 5 (03:50):
I think the Thunders overall dominance from really day one
through the finals will be something I'll remember. The pace,
There's just what a fun run this was. All those
you know, hero plays by Halliburton and others, and Nemhard
turning into this shooting machine out of nowhere, like those

(04:12):
things will stick with me. And then from the way
both of those teams are built, that depth matters like
this is now if you're thinking about this as a
one hundred plus game season, which you kind of have
to be if you're hoping to win a title. In
matt you the the three stars and the whole bunch
of minimum guys is probably done. We're probably out of

(04:35):
that for a while. Someone will try it again, and
someone will hit the right mix of guys where it'll
probably work. But for now, depth really matters. You've got
to have your core group of three, four, five guys
and then the right guys around them, and that's how
you go forward. So just you know, that's kind of
a lesson in ross are building that I'll take away.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah, and I would say both these teams had what
I affectionately refer to as insurance, which is, you know,
if you have a guy who for whatever reason just
can't hang in a given series, you need and it happens,
you know, up and down rotations. But both these teams
could turn to different players. You know, Miles Turners having

(05:18):
a disastrous first run of I think it was Game seven,
maybe it was Game six, I can't remember, and they go,
Tony Bradley, we need six good minutes, you know, and
he was able to give it to them. They were
able when Bradley didn't have it going at certain points
in the postseason, they went to Thomas Bryant, who gave
them good minutes. When they needed to go extra small,

(05:40):
they could go to Obi Toppen. They just had all
this different versatility. And then you look at Okay see
in between Hertenstein, Isaiah, Joe, you know some of their
other you know, Kenrich Williams, us Mundang they were playing
that was like, you know, forty fifty million worth of
salary playing like twenty four minutes game at one combined

(06:02):
at one point in the finals, just because they had
this you know, this treasury of options of different lineups
that they just thought matched up better with Indy. Like
something I've talked about a lot on this podcast is
the fact that you know, folks get on Jared Allen
for not being matchup proof and no one left this

(06:23):
series going what a disaster for for Okay See Hartenstein
wasn't closing games for them, and they paid him thirty
million a year. It's because it doesn't matter because they
were able to win and with other options, so it
does feel like an options. You know that that depth matters,
that lineup versatility matters, and then, like I will say,
my biggest takeaway is just the level of on ball

(06:47):
juice up and down the roster for both teams. Everyone
could could catch the ball, get closed out on, and
attack that close out and the players who couldn't were
the ones who typically got played off the floor. In
that series. You know, Isaiah Joe, a shooting specialist, really
didn't have a lot of didn't get a lot of run.

(07:10):
You know, Hartenstein had a hard series at different points
because he wasn't a guy who was really able to attack,
you know, in an empty space.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
So I feel like if I'm the Calves, that is
a big lesson for me is how much of the
creation is centered. You know, in that playoff loss, Indy
was centered by that around that backcourt and finding ways,
whether by style of play or by roster construction, to
democratize your offense. It just feels so crucial to me.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah, I totally agree, and you know, I feel a
little vindicated as well because I came away from last
year when the Celtics won the championship, and my biggest takeaway,
you know, everyone focused on the threes. To me, it
was the versatility of the playmaking, the fact that you
could generate offense from so many different positions. And even
though okay, see, really you know to some extent, SHA's

(08:05):
the only one that can do that at a high level,
you have so much basketball like you on the court, right,
you have so many guys that can contribute in that way.
And that's definitely kind of one of the overwhelming takeaways
for me. But you know, the the other thing that
you know, it's hard to ignore and Keith, obviously, you know,
we saw this throughout the Eastern playoffs.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
You look at what.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
Is that three of the top four teams in the
East this year suffered an achilles injury to one of
their stars. Like, I've never seen anything like that, you know,
as someone that's gone through an achilles there in the
last year, it keeps triggering that that PTSD there. So
I feel completely empathetic to all of these situations. I

(08:49):
wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I just I
was speechless, you know when when I saw Hollie go
down with it, it was it was.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
My my fear.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
You know that you can't play the hindsight game. And frankly,
like I have zero judgment on how he deciding to
play in that game. I have no judgment. You know,
I don't think anybody made a mistake. I think these
are the risks that you take in as an athlete.
It's just, you know, nobody wants to see that, and

(09:18):
the fact that, unlike other injuries, this is just so
clear cut of you're missing a season and it's going
to take even longer to bounce back. It really does
put the Eastern Conference in flux.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
In my opinion, Yeah, without a doubt.

Speaker 5 (09:31):
I think him going down first of all, like him
going down, I think Carter, you said it just your
heart saying, like when you saw that, and just he
knew it immediately. Jason Tatum knew it immediately. Damian Lillard
knew it immediately. This is the one injury guys know
when it happens, they know exactly what happened, and they're

(09:53):
just you know, devastating because of how long it takes
to recover from it and then the additional time, like
you said, to get back and watching him on the
floor just kind of pounding on the floor because I think,
like I said it earlier today, we've all done whether
it's in the driveway or at the park or in

(10:14):
the gym. All right, I got the ball game seven
to the finals. You know, I'm gonna take my team, right,
We've all played that scenario out and here he was
in real life doing it, you know, on the Well, yeah,
he did three point three threes already and really looked
pretty good. And then you could see just how much
that crushed him. So yeah, I you know, my heart
goes out to him, to Pacers fans. But to your point,

(10:38):
justin this is now the Eastern Conference is completely in flux.
I think when he went down, teams across the East
had to have I'm not saying they all called emergency
meetings and called the old staff in in the middle
of the night on a Sunday, but there was probably
a lot of text chains going around of hey, this

(10:59):
kind of change things for us if we were thinking
about X, Y, and Z. You've now taken three major
superstar players off the board in the East for a while.
Well we'll just say that for a while. And you know,
so why not us, right, why can't we be the
ones who step forward if those teams are a little
bit out of the mix here, And I think that's

(11:21):
going to change the way we see roster construction happen
this summer. I think teams are going to change that
might have been all right, maybe we need to make
a reset move. They may be a little more likely
to say, you know what, we're close, let's just run
it back more or less and let's gear up and
go for it.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah. And I would love just to take this into
the Calves and how they should react. And I promise
we are going to get to the more nitty gritty
CBA questions that have been rattling around my brain.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
Soon.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
But like for the Calves, they are in an interesting
spot here. We know a few things about them. We
know they won sixty four games. We know that they
are probably not super thrilled with how their playoffs ended,
though we also have the context of you know, injuries
to their to some of their very best players on
the road to that, and we know that they are
a second apron team, and so you know most of

(12:17):
the constructions if you really are on team, make the
Calves different, the Calves need to be fundamentally different. Then
maybe you're more comfortable going in making a deal that
maybe doesn't make you better on the talent sheet this
year in pursuit of kind of rebalancing the roster down

(12:39):
the road, Keith, if you, if you're the Calves, like,
how does this Haliburton injury change your team building philosophy?
Knowing that you are still going to be in second
aprin town. I guess till you're not.

Speaker 5 (12:54):
Yeah, I and I promise I'm not saying this, And
just in the wake of the Alburton injury, because I
wrote the a couple of weeks ago, when I wrote
the Calves off season preview of patience, patients, patience, thank you.
I appreciate that, but patients right like you, like when
your team isn't the one that lifts the trophy, the
gut instinct is what do we have to change to

(13:16):
be the ones who do that? And sometimes the answer
is you don't really need to change anything or and
there's always changes you have. Very few teams bring back
the same I now say, eighteen guys because you got
the two way players. But very very few teams bring
back the same eighteen guys from the year before, and
the roster returns and hold.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
It almost never happens in the NBA.

Speaker 5 (13:39):
But then when you get a little bit more realistic.
If it's, hey, we changed out our fifteenth man most nights. Okay,
well that's and we're not going to go crazy over that.
So for the Calves, I feel like you're right there,
and you're absolutely right. It's some will say, oh, it's
an excuse because the injuries happened, or some may I've
even seen some of Oh it's you know, it's a few,

(14:00):
not not a bug, right, because it's the same guys
picking up injuries, and maybe that leads to, hey, we
got to keep the depth around a little bit more, because,
like we talked about before, you got to be prepared
to play one hundred game season. It's not enough to
get through eighty two. If you want to win the title,
it's gonna take a few more. So I think for Cleveland,
I would just be very cautious of doing anything big,

(14:24):
like and I'm not clearly they're not gonna blow the
team up, but doing anything too large that upsets the
good thing they have going because yes they lost in
the second round, but they had a great, borderline dominant
regular season. Barely anybody played thirty minutes per game on
the team because they were killing everybody so often like,

(14:45):
so you just want to be in a spall where
I think you gotta be really careful that you don't
upset the good thing you have trying to chase it
and make it x percent better because that may not come.
And then too often we see teams it's like, man,
if we just run it back, it made a smaller
move or two, maybe we're in a better spot. So
I think I was there already now in the wake

(15:07):
of the Halburton injury and the Tatum injury and the
Lillard injury, you got to kind of look around.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
And say, why.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
Not us, Why can't we You know, we're already the
best team in the East and the regular season, why
can't we be the team that gets through next year?

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Because they're they're clearly very very close.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, it's an interesting balance because on the one hand, yes,
the Eastern Conference has opened up for them in a
lot of ways, and I think, you know, probably the
Calves even without this injury. I think the Calves, I
think the Knicks. I think even some teams in the
Western Conference probably looked at this finals and said, you know,
we're not that far away. Like a couple of results
go a little differently the Calves probably could say, you know,

(15:46):
if we were healthy, we would have had a shot
to win that series.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
I believe that.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I also believe that Indie's style of play and the
way they were able to generate offense from so many
different you know, positions, and just the way like how
tiring are to play against. I think they are actually
in a styles made Fights league. I think they were
better matchup for okay see. I think they give oka
See a bigger fight than the Calves would have. So
from that perspective, the Calves can't feel complacent, right Like,

(16:13):
you can't sit here and say, you know, if we're healthy,
the East opened up, we can just move forward. They
need to examine all options. And I actually really liked
how Brian Winhorse went word of this. I think it
was an interview with ESPN Cleveland where he was talking
about how, you know, you kind of owe it to
yourself as a team that's approaching and about to enter
the sacred second Apron. Not the Sacred Apron, but it

(16:35):
might as well be all right, you know, as you're
approaching the second Apron, you owe it to yourself to
examine what all the options are because it is so restrictive.
You need to find out basically what's available to you.
But before you enter into that.

Speaker 5 (16:53):
I'm completely with you on that. Sorry, Carter, but like, yeah,
you you.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
My thing is there's.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
Sorry, I have apparently a dog fight going on here
and I'm the only one home tonight. Normally they'd be
hanging out with my wife, but they're like, no, we
gotta hang out with dad here tonight. So where I
was going is, you're absolutely right, you don't want to
be complacent. But there's a major difference between calling everybody
in the league and saying you want player X, you

(17:25):
want player why, and somebody calls you, or you have
a targeted player you really want and you're like, all right,
that's the guy for us, let's go go look at
trying to acquire that player. Clearly, as I know, we're
going to get into more, it's not coming through free agency.
That's not where big changes are coming. We'll get into why,

(17:47):
I'm sure. But so if you're making a big trade now,
that's even more complicated for the Cavs than it was
in prior years. But you also have to be really
certain because as a second apron team, you only have
so many levers you can pull before you're kind of
out of them, and then it's like, all right now,

(18:08):
the only real lever is to reset fully like Phoenix was.
We've seen in the most recent vintage here they're having
to really reset things in a big, big way. Boston's
gonna be in that position. Minnesota, we'll we'll see. They've
got some stuff that could happen this year. But the
Bucks were a second Apron team in year one, year

(18:30):
two of the Apron era. As I've taken a calling it,
they are excuse me, they were let's do what we
can to get out of this. They make it work
another way. So that's where you just gonna be very
careful on the levers you pull them when you pull them.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, the one thing I will say before we jump into,
you know, the straight up the nitty gritty is I
don't think. I do think the Cavs should be more
careful than maybe I otherwise felt about upset their chemistry
to be different. However, I do think, you know what

(19:06):
little level levers they have to pull, which you know,
it's some draft compensation, both in the form of you know,
like I think they have one swap left they can
give up in twenty thirty and then the twenty thirty
one is the only tradable first that they have that's
just straight up that they can just send out, I
will say, and I'm curious what you feel about this,

(19:29):
Justin in the wake of this, knowing that Boston's going
to be down, Andy's going to be down, Milwaukee's going
to be down, and the folks that are the teams
that are you know, stand to benefit. Outside of Cleveland.
You get the Knicks, who I think the Calves match
up very very well with in this current iteration of
that roster, which funny because they didn't match up with

(19:50):
them well treen years ago when they were less talented
than they are now. The Pistons who don't feel ready,
and then of course the mat who, while I really
like that team, I really liked them last year when
they took the Cavs to seven. They haven't gotten out
of the first round yet, you know, so you know,
like there is a bit of prove it to them.

(20:11):
So you look at all their peers and my question
to you, Justin is are you a little more eager
to part with draft compensation to get the team better now?
Given the landscape or is it still we We're pretty
leveraged for the now already. I don't want to leverage more.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
I wouldn't say eager, but I would be open to it.
And you know, looking at the blue, are.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
You more open to it than you were a week ago? No?

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Because I think I was already kind of in that mindset.
Like in my mind, you have a two year window
right now, because that's when how many years of Donovan
Mitchell's current contract before he.

Speaker 4 (20:53):
Has the option to opt out?

Speaker 3 (20:54):
You have, right, And I don't think you can really
think beyond those terms anyways, right, I think anytime you
assume you have a window, we've seen in these playoffs
injuries can happen, right like the unknown is there. So
I was already kind of in that mindset. And to
speak to what Keith mentioned, how you know, once you
go into the apron, which functionally there's probably no realistic

(21:17):
way that the Cavs could get out of it without
you know, getting the roster already. But when you're already
kind of in that world, you can only really be
in there for like two out of five years, and
if you're going to have to blow it up anyways,
you're likely getting draft compensation back, right Like, you're likely
recouping a bunch of assets. So even if it's not

(21:37):
your own, you're probably going to be you know, in
the middle with some added flexibility, and you can probably build.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
Up again, right Like.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
I don't think you tear it all the way down
to the studs and be in position where hey, I
really need my draft pick because we're trying to you know,
pick in the top three here. I don't think it
would be that type of situation, So I think I
would be open to it. Just understand, windows are finite.
If we have to reset, we have to reset. But

(22:05):
you know, the realistic options available to them, you know,
in terms of even matching salary in a trade makes
the types of players that would be available or that
you'd be willing to give up a draft compensation for
a list is probably just a little bit short.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, it's definitely hard, no matter what, in this in
this environment to make these moves. But I do kind
of keep going back to like, if you do like
the talent of your team and you're looking to find
a change, it's a lot easier to find that change
without doing what Keith kind of cautioned against which is
blowing everything up right by get playing with that draft compensation.

(22:47):
So that's going to be a huge question for them
moving forward. But now I want too, I want to
zoom out a little bit and just talk and use Keith,
who is you know, a CBA expert who has done
all the work Justin and I are far too lazy
to do and and really dove in and understood this

(23:08):
because you know, we you know, we're seeing so many
people suggest roads for the team, whether it's Twitter, whether
it's you know, whether it's articles. I mean, you know,
like in some major publications, even national publications have shared
fake trades for this team that are not legal under

(23:30):
the CBA, and I think you know with it, and
I think it. I thought it would be really helpful
to have you on, Keith, to just explain some core tenants,
let us dig in and ask some funky questions here
and there to just try to get a better picture
so as fans we can be educated because you know,
we all love to play GM you know, Justin and

(23:53):
I are no exception, but like we also don't have
all the context. So if we could just kind of
start segment off, Keith with can you just give us
the top down, the big picture primer of what is
the apron system and kind of what does each step mean?

Speaker 1 (24:12):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (24:12):
Yeah, So I think most people have a pretty good
understanding of you could be under the cap or over
the cap. That's pretty easy, right. If you're under the cap,
you have cap space, you could go sign free agents,
you can trade for guys, do whatever. If you're over
the cap, you're over the cap. But if you're the
way I put it is, you're a little bit over it.

(24:33):
Even if you're a little bit into the luxury tax,
you could still do a lot of the things that
you could do as an under the cap team. You
just can't sign somebody for forty million dollars max deal.
So what happens then is then we added this apron,
the first apron, the original apron if you will, that

(24:56):
has been around for years now. I think we're in
the third or fourth CBA that that's existed in. And
what that was done was, hey, we got to put
some level of curbing the higher end teams from just
adding and adding and adding and adding, because that's where
it was getting to. If we go back, you know,

(25:18):
years and years ago and one of the primary teams
when it was initially instituted was the Lakers because it
was like, they're just gonna outspend everybody. It's gonna get crazy.
Then what they did in this most recent CBA, I'm
trying very hard to no longer call it the new
CBA because we are in Europe of it now, like
we're like halfway through. It's like, you know, minimum lifespan already.

(25:42):
But in this current CBA, the idea was all right,
that wasn't enough. We still have these teams that are
gonna outspend everybody, and you know, quite frankly as it goes,
we have these multi billionaire owners now who are very
happy be to spend a lot of money because this

(26:03):
is my toy, and I want my toy to be
really fun to watch and play with and see what
it looks like. I want to be out there. I
want to win a championship, so I'm gonna spend, spend, spend.
So so we land here second April World. So what
happens now is under the cap, over the cap, same
as it was a little bit over the cap, just
into the tacks, not too restrictive. First Apron we get

(26:26):
a little bit more restrictive. There's certain things you can do,
there's certain things you can't do. If you do those,
some of those things, they'll hardcap you at the first apron.
Hard cap people get super tripped up by it, but
I'm gonna boil it down, make it super easy. If
you're hard caped at the first apron, you can't go
over the first apron under any circumstances by even a dollar.

(26:46):
The Dallas Mavericks this past season hard cap det the
first apron. We're down to legit. Questions of were gonna
have enough players to field an active roster for a game,
and there's no way out of it. There's not an
easy way out of it of well, go sign a guy.
You know you just can't do that. That's not not
how it works. There's no no exception to that. Quite frankly,

(27:09):
a CBA nerd like me was like, not that I
ever want people to be hurt, but I was like,
let's get one more guy out for one more game,
because I want to see what the league does, Like
do we reschedule? Do they say, all right, this is
an extreme hardship. We're gonna give a one time permission like,
I didn't know how they'd handle it. So then you
have that second apron. Second apron super duper restrictive. You

(27:32):
are really limited in the things you can do, and
even more so, if you do a couple more things
beyond the first apron limits, you can hardcap yourself at
the second apron and it works exactly the same. Can't
go over it by even a dollar. So that's it's
You're gonna probably hear me say being a second apron
team is really hard, and that was exactly the intention

(27:56):
was for it to be really hard. The NBA did
not want it to be just this minor penalty or
something you could just pay your way out of. They
wanted to put real, actual basketball restrictions to building a
team on the on on these really expensive teams, because
it makes you think twice. And beyond that, there are

(28:17):
then future penalties that get paid.

Speaker 1 (28:20):
The teams that were over.

Speaker 5 (28:21):
The second apron this year for a second straight year, Boston, Minnesota,
and Phoenix. They've now entered in a frozen pick territory
where in twenty thirty two, their draft pick is frozen,
they can't trade it. Andy get moved, gets moved. To
the end of the first round.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
If they're all crazy part of the second and.

Speaker 5 (28:40):
If they're all still frozen picks, because it's his question
has come up, what if they're all still frozen picks.
Then it goes in in versus of the standings of
wherever you finish, So you know, well, whatever team is
at the top, it just goes bing bing bang thirty
twenty nine, twenty eight and so forth. So that's the challenge.
Now you can, I like to say, all those picks

(29:02):
out by being out of the second apron for a
number of years approaching that time where the pick is frozen,
if you get out from underneath that. It works a
lot like the repeater tax, which some people may be
familiar with, where if you stay out of the tax
for a little while, it resets the clock and then
that pick becomes unfrozen. It's tradable it slots back in
wherever it should in the draft. But it's you're gonna

(29:25):
have to work. You can't live life for five six
years in a row as a second apron team without
there being immediate punishments and restrictions and long term punishments
as well.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
So go ahead, justin no, I was just going to say,
you know, it is really restrictive. I've heard Zach Low
basically referred to it as functionally a hard cap. And
you know, as the Cavs enter into that world, it's
taking like some adjustment for me, right, Like my mindset
is changing because there was always it always felt like
there were.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Loopholes within the CBA.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
And I think that's one of the things that people
are with, whether it's you know, fans, whether it's some
b reporters and stuff like that, anyone operating in the
trade machine. They're just kind of the sense of, well, like,
there's ways to figure it out there, there's ways to
accomplish anything, and you know, the realities just seem that
it is so much more difficult. It is hard to

(30:19):
really get anything accomplished. It makes it hard to even
find value in the margins. And you know, I think
listeners can relate to searching for these tools to find
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(30:42):
eligible paid plans or cappy with Zuomii companion.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
God bless you. You're you're you're truly a killer of
the game.

Speaker 1 (30:48):
That was smooth man. I I hats off to you,
take my hat off. But then everybody see how messy
my hair is.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
We wouldn't foist that upon you. Keith, Uh, can you
mention one quick?

Speaker 1 (31:00):
Sorry?

Speaker 5 (31:01):
I just just justin mentioned something. I am never critical
when somebody's like, I don't understand this stuff. Now one
one selfishly good because that keeps me gainfully employed because
I get to explain it. But in reality, it is
really complicated. It is really hard. These are not rules

(31:22):
that necessarily impact all thirty teams every year. So I
think a lot of people, maybe a lot of Cavs fans,
maybe you guys have been like, now, I'm not worried
about that second apron stuff. I'll worry about it if
and when that is a concern, right, like then then
then then we'll call Keith and have them help us
learn it right. And that's that's I don't like. It's

(31:44):
funny because they get a lot of men. You must
be tired of answering these questions, and I really don't
get that way, because I get it. It is complicated,
and in a lot of ways, I think to some extent,
the league has done a little bit of a disservice
to themselves in this approach to we don't want anybody
to really super outspend anybody else. They had made it

(32:05):
harder for not necessarily, I don't know that the casual
fan cares about salary caps. They care about like whol
dunks and who's winning the title and stuff like that.
But then like the person who would say, yeah, I'm
an NBA fan, they've made it harder for them to
even just comprehend and understand, Hey, why can Emax do this?

(32:25):
But team why can't? And sometimes the answers just well
they're really expensive And for some people that's okay, I'll
walk away with that. That's enough of an answer that
I need. But now there are these things, and it
really does make it you can only do certain things
as a second apron team.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
Do you think with the benefit of hindsight, you know,
looking back to the last time that we had one
of these CBA negotiations and all that. You know, obviously,
as Cavs fans, we were familiar with it because there
was not Caps moving right. There was that big spike,
and it enabled Kevin Durant to be able to sign
with the Warriors. Do you think, with the benefit of
hindsight there there might be some willingness to not do

(33:04):
Caps moothing this time and allow for big spikes so
that way teams can do more future planning. The current
contracts have this kind of room to work with. Do
you think that that might have been something that, you know,
looking back on it, they would have liked to have
within this mix.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
It's a really good question. I tend to think no,
because I think both sides really came to an understanding
of we are in a spot way with the capspike.
It benefited exactly one free agent class. Where one free
agent class got all that money, it got way overpaid,

(33:42):
and that got really crazy. And I think that's where
the this moothing came in from, where it was, hey,
we're gonna kind of just roll with this, because I
think they wanted to make sure it didn't get to
a place where only one team guy their only excuse me,
one class of free agents got these mega contracts and

(34:03):
everybody else was kind of left out there, So I
think that's what happened with that. What I do think,
and I've heard this from teams, is there a handful
that I kind of wish we had put in an
amnesty provision again, which had any time in previous cbas
where they made major changes to the rule structure in

(34:23):
the operation of the league, meaning the apron was introduced,
the luxury tax was introduced. If we go back, they
also put in the amnesty clause because it was like, hey,
we're gonna give one chance. A lot of times people
are like, it doesn't really hurt the player who's being
waived because they're still getting their full salary, and if anything,
it actually introduces more money into the system because now

(34:44):
the teams are a little bit more freed up to
do things. So that's where I think it really lands
to a spot of hey, let's kind of get get
get this direction. They didn't do it, though, so that's,
you know, kind of where where we're going down Fantasy
Land here a little bit on that, but but yeah,
I think I do. The number one thing I hear
from teams is it's probably a little too restrictive with

(35:07):
all the things that hardcap you now at not not
really the second Apron as much, but at the first Apron,
and it makes it really hard to be a luxury
tax team and even make moves. That is the one
thing that I do think they feel like that became
a bit too restrictive.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Thank you for answering that, Keith, and apologies to everyone
on the stream. We had some internet problems here, but
we are back now. One of the questions that I have,
and I think one of the biggest hang ups is
when when people are, you know, working the trade machine
or just trying to get a handle on the CBA,
the inability to aggregate salaries in a trade is something
that that hangs you know, is a hang up for

(35:44):
almost all of us. Can you explain what exactly triggers
aggregation in a deal, you know, or is there any
way around it? Is there any way that a second
Apron team could potentially aggregate salaries when when making a deal.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
Yeah, So aggregation is simply adding two or more salaries
together to be able to match salary for another player
or players salaries in a trade. So, when you're living
life as a second Apron team, if you have two
thirty million dollar players and you want to acquire a

(36:19):
fifty million dollar player. You can't do that because you
can't add those two thirty million dollar players together and
go get that fifty million dollar player, even though you're
sending more money out with one caveat. Let's say you
are only two million over the second apron, as long
as you finish under the second apron at the end
result of the trade, trade would be legal. Trades always

(36:42):
work off of is it The question of is this
legal is always what is the end result of this trade,
not as where is it when it starts. I think
it got misconstrued, and I'm probably partially guilty of it
because I use the lazy answer of second apron teams
can't aggregate contracts together in a trade, when it's really

(37:03):
as long as they stay over the second apron after
the trade, if you finish under, you can aggregate together
and you're okay. So that's that's the one way around it.
I guess if you did that, so anytime you need
to add add up some salary to go acquire other salary,
you can't. Second apron teams are also restricted in a

(37:24):
trade from Again, let's use our thirty million dollar player.
Let's say you want to go acquire a thirty one
million dollar player.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
You can't.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
You can't take on any more money in a trade.
That's actually a first Apron restriction that they made it.
Anything more than one hundred percent salary matching in a
trade triggers a first Apron hardcap. Obviously, if you're over
the first Apron and hard cap can't be over the
second Apron, so soon be able to do that. D
I can really make it simple if you want to

(37:53):
know what you can do as a second Apron team,
if you'd like, because the list is pretty short, so
let me know if if you want me to fire
that off.

Speaker 4 (38:01):
Yeah, sure, yeah, let's do this.

Speaker 5 (38:04):
So second Aprin teams what you can't. Here's the things
you can do. You can resign your free agents using
whatever bird rights you have on them. Could be non bird,
could be early bird, could be full bird rights, which
obviously would allow contract up to their masks.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
You can do that.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
They're applicable to tiderme. Sorry, that's a prime example.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (38:26):
The reason for that is they did not want to
make it so teams had to get rid of drafted
and or developed players you don't have to. You could
choose to go, you know, be the Celtics or the
Suns and be miles above the Second Apron. If you
want to resign all your own guys, you're perfectly eligible
to do that, capable of doing that. So that's thing one.

(38:48):
You could do. Thing two. You can make trades. You
just can't aggregate salaries as we just talked, and you
have to take back less in a trade than what
you send out. Now here's the good news. I guess
if you wanted to send out a fifty million dollar player,
you could take back two players to make twenty million apiece.
That's okay. You can always take back more players then

(39:10):
you send out, provided you have the roster spots and
all the other things that have always been in place.
The other thing you can do you can sign your
own draft picks. So if you make make a draft
pick first or second round, you can still sign them
all the same avenue as you could before to do that.
And then if you really are like man, we really

(39:30):
want an outside free agent, you can always offer them
a minimum contract that that's available to Second Apron teams
as well.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
You can offer them.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
There are no there's no mid level exception, right, there's
no buying annual. Yeah, it's lose minimums only.

Speaker 5 (39:44):
Yep, yep, you are minimums only. That is it for
outside signings from that. So it's it's really restrictive, right,
you are stuck with not.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
With the roster you have.

Speaker 5 (39:58):
I mean, we just saw the Phoenix Suns second April
team agree to trade Kevin Durant away, and that's a
good example of one player went out, they brought back
two guys who make slightly less. There's a weird complication
there to do with a bonus that gets really nerdy
that I loved and most of your audience would be
like time for bed. But anyway, it's like it's they

(40:20):
they are, But at the crux of it, they're sending
out slightly more than they're bringing back and getting two
players in return they'll be able to use when they
use the tenth pick for assuming that they keep it
and use it, they'll be able to sign that player.
They can resign their own free agents this summer if
they want to. With any of them, you're just limited.
The Suns have been two years in a row now

(40:43):
really like hitting that minimum market hard in cycling through
the last four or five spots on the roster, because
it's that's all they have to offer. Now, that's okay
if it comes with chance to contend, maybe a chance
to actually play real minutes. A lot of guys are
all right with that. They're a minimum level player. Phoenix
is a place a lot of players like living because

(41:04):
let's face it, it's warm, it's a you know, comfortable climate.
So a lot of guys are happy to go there.
But it's uh, but it gets tricky well when you're
living above the second aprin because there's just not a
lot you can do to make real roster change.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
So I had another question regarding aggregation, because this is
one that's funky because, like you know, and I think
this is where that the CBA is a little challenging.
Is like you want simple answers, and sometimes the answers
just aren't that simple. Because my original interpretation of aggregation

(41:39):
just meant you can't send two players out, you can't
combine players in a trade, and it does and correct
me if I'm wrong here, but if you have let's
say you have a twenty million dollar player and a
ten million dollar player, can you do a trade with
a team using that twenty million player and a million

(42:00):
player for two players who make eighteen and eight. So
you know, would those be processes to basically individual trades?
Like how does that work?

Speaker 5 (42:10):
Yeah, So that's exactly what would happen, Carter in that example,
those would be broken into two individual trades. That's how
how those would get processed. That's actually a very regular
thing in the even before we had all this apron stuff.
For ninety nine percent of the public, even including really
the three of us one, it was I always still

(42:31):
go with woj or choms tweets out team A and
tm B or trading players X, Y and Z for
players A, B and C. They are gonna make that trade.
There's very often it is that that's really kind of
more two trades, sometimes even three trades. Deaners altis, these

(42:53):
guys are going here and these guys are going there,
and that's what we really care about in the end.
But that's how you get things like trade exceptions created
and all this other stuff, because what the NBA allows
for is each team in a trade can execute their
trade and whatever the most beneficial way is for themselves.
So if the most beneficial way is for a second

(43:15):
April team to trade a twenty million dollar player and
a ten million dollar player for an eighteen and an eight.
That works because the most beneficial way for them on
their side might be, let's do it that way. On
the other side, it might be, hey, let's do the
eighteen and eight for the twenty. The other guy technically
is going out for nothing, and now we created an

(43:36):
eight million dollar trade exception. That could be a way
that could work on the other side of that deal.
As long as it's legal for both teams. On both sides,
you can get there any number of ways.

Speaker 3 (43:46):
So it would need to be basically, in order for
the trade to be legal, it needs to be capable
of being.

Speaker 4 (43:52):
Processed as separate transactions.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
So that would include, like you know, if you had
a three team deal where you're you're sending out two players,
one to each team, you're receiving a player from each team,
in order for that to be legal, it would have
to be separate transactions.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Correct, Yeah, that is correct.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
Now, this is where I will say our trade machine
on spot Track, which I love, had a big hand
in creating. I think it's one of the better ones
out there. You just have to be careful when you
like like Carter's example of a twenty in an eight
or twenty and ten for an eighteen and eight, it's
not necessarily going to know that's really two separate trades.

(44:29):
So it's going to see that as you're trying to combine,
and it's going to fail it. So my advice is
always try the one and then try the other one,
and if it works, you're You're great, You're golden, and
off you go.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
Now, well, I think a lot of Yeah, I think
a lot of fans, including myself, I don't want to
like separate myself because I didn't know this either. Didn't
understand that fact that you just mentioned that a lot
of times the back end processing is different. In fact,
I wondered because because so many loopholes have closed in
this CBA, I was like, is trying to process a

(45:03):
two for two as separate rates? Is that another loophole
that they're not going to let us get away with?
And it does in you know, it's one of those
educational moments you're like, no, that's always been that way,
So like it is a it is like a good
reminder that like we've never understood how the CBA works.
It's just a few more rules nowadays.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
And you know, speaking of loopholes, one of the follow
up questions I want had is you mentioned that as
a second apron team, which the calves are you are
able to aggregate salaries if you end up below the
second apron, So you know you have to evaluate, all right,
this is how far we are above the second apron,
and then it's no longer you know, taking this player

(45:45):
and finding the salary matching to match that salary, you
then have to add additional salary to get under that
second apron. What are the consequences? What are the implications
when a team does that as a second apron team,
are they able to you know, get under and then
kind of sprint back up, like do they create flexibility
or is that a situation where they become hardcap.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, it's a really good question.

Speaker 5 (46:08):
So in your example of we're going to aggregate but
then finish under the second apron, because you aggregated players,
you would trigger a second apron hardcap, that is one
of the triggers. So basically the way to think about
it is all the things you can't do also trigger
a hard cap for you, So you can't aggregate players,

(46:30):
so that triggers the second apron hardcap. So in your example, yeah,
you're good to make the initial trade. Let's say you
finished three million under, the second apron awesome trades' legal
trade goes through, but you are now.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
First seven roster players.

Speaker 5 (46:45):
Yeah, that's the well, that's that's another track. Dallas knows
all about that, as we talked about earlier, or the Knicks, right,
the Knicks had to play all that funny business after
the Cat trade because it was all right, we're gonna
sign a guy for two weeks, and then it's gonna
see you later for two weeks, and then come for
two weeks, and all those things that they you run into.
But with in your example, justin you get to a

(47:06):
spot where, let's again three million under, you'd have three
million in in wiggle room, but you're now hard capped
at the second apron because you aggregated players.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
So you probably have to get like thirteen million under
so that you can have enough room to sign seven
minimum players.

Speaker 5 (47:22):
It really depends on how many roster spots, and that's
that's a very rare. So before all of this stuff,
I didn't necessarily track down to the can you fill
out the roster to fourteen players because it it didn't
really matter because you always kind of could unless you
were one of the handful of teams that triggered a hardcap.

(47:44):
It used to be teams that would get themselves hardcapped
when we only had the original Apron, which is now
the first Apron. You'd have maybe three or four a
year that would trigger that, and always one of those
teams was, yeah, they did something that triggers it, but
they're they're twenty million dollars away. It's never gonna actually matter.
Like the one that makes me laugh this year is

(48:06):
for the season that just ended. The Charlotte Hornets were
a second Apron hard cap team and we're like a
billion dollars underneath it. It didn't even matter. But they're
still hardcapped this season. I believe it was when we
got there. Total, I think it was like twenty four
teams were hard capped at either the first or second Apron.
So you really run into now. For me, in my world,

(48:29):
I need to track how many open rush spots do
you have and can you even fill them all? Can
you fill them all with a minimum contract to get there?
Because we now should know, through the Nick saga and
even the mav saga, you have to have fourteen players
understandard contracts. Except for brief periods of time throughout the year.
You could go up to fourteen days with less than

(48:51):
fourteen on your roster, or up to twenty eight total
days in the season with less than fourteen on your roster.
If you go beyond that, there's all kinds of punishments
that come in, and really the reality is you just
wouldn't be allowed to.

Speaker 1 (49:04):
They would say, no, you need to You.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Can't do this trade because you won't have enough.

Speaker 5 (49:09):
Yeah, yeah, this trade, Or you could do the trade,
but then you're gonna have to do something else, right,
You're gonna have to do another trade. One of the
things that was like, uh, it's speculated about. Let's say
with the Mavericks, I'm gonna keep using them because they
ran into this real issue was are they gonna have
to wave a player that they feel really confident we'll

(49:29):
get claimed off of waivers just so it frees up
like two million bucks for them to go in and maybe,
you know, have a little bit of wiggle room to
fill out their roster. When they were going through all
their injuries. That was like real speculator that this is
what cap nerds do on a Saturday night when everybody
else is out having fun. We sit and dream up
these you know, ridiculous scenarios of could this play out

(49:51):
in real life?

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Well, it's super fascinating, honestly, And I think and I
hope that you know, our listeners have, you know, made
it deeper into the episode, because I think the instinct
as a fan, especially if you don't if you're not
in love with the roster, I think Justin and I
definitely skew more very pot you know, much more positively

(50:14):
on you know, the spectrum of how we feel about
the current roster. So we're not at we don't feel
the same urgency to make wild changes to it. But
I think if you're someone who isn't sure about the
roster and you hear about all these rules that the
second Apron has imposed on you, your instinct is to say,

(50:35):
whatever we got to do, we got to get under
this thing. And I think that the the reality of
that of triggering that hard cap really should disincentivize people
from the at all costs or hey, we want to
upgrade the roster in some significant way still, and it's

(50:57):
worth it to get under the second apron to do it.
It's like, well, maybe it's not, and I think it.
I think it's it is a really uh it's a
it's a really good piece of intel. And I think
one of the things that really goes under the radar
is that that hardcap trigger, because it is like, that's
about as damaging of a thing as possible, uh inn less, unless,

(51:19):
to your point, you have that twenty million in room
beneath it.

Speaker 5 (51:23):
Yeah, if you've got plenty of wiggle room, who cares,
doesn't matter, right, it's never going to come into play.
You're fine. But if you're tied to it. I feel
about the second Apron the same way I feel about
the luxury tax if you hit the trade deadline, because
that's kind of your last chance right to make meaningful
roster change if you hit that. If you hit the

(51:46):
trade deadline and you're within one small salary shedding move
of getting out from underneath the second Apron or out
from the luxury tax, you kind of should do it.
And and trust me, I don't really care all that
much about saving billionaires money. It's more for me, it's
about I want the less basketball restrictions that we have,

(52:06):
and you owe it to to yourself to hey, let's
let's do this right, well, let's get it get out
from underneath this. This may not help us this year,
but now our pick doesn't get frozen. Now we're undergoing
into next offseason and we're just in a better place.
That said, I am as I have always been. If

(52:27):
you are close, I believe you owe it to your players,
your front office, your fans, ownership and everybody to go
for it. If you feel like we're really close, I
mean I I'll do. I mean, you got that title,
you guys have means so much to you because because
you got it right like like no, like nobody wants

(52:47):
everybody the ones who are like hey for you know,
we all tease the Celtics about this. And I can
say this as a Celtics fan of good job on
making the East Finals seven hundred years in a row.
That's cool, but no one cares because you didn't want
a title, right.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
I used to love being able to say, you know,
Calves and Celtics have the same amount of titles in
the last like thirty five years, like my lifetime, that
was a lot of fun, but you're right like, you know,
if you win. I love that phrase from Windy where
when you win, you don't have to say sorry, right like,
it's look behind Carter, He's got a poster, you know,
from the Acron Beacon Journal one for all. I've got

(53:21):
a piece of the floor behind me from from the
Cavs won like you know you're going to you know,
stack the room and you know I want it once
again Carter said it earlier. I want to say that
I loved your offseason guy. I thought it was really
really informative and helpful when it came to the Calves.
And you know, I empathize with fans that do have concerns,

(53:43):
right like, can this team stay healthy for a playoff run?
Can they you know, find that the maturity? Can they
they you know, do what's necessary to put themselves over
the hump. If you have those concerns, I understand why
the second Apron is going to be a little scary.
I mean I have concerns too, right like I just
because so many injuries occurred in the Eastern Conference, I

(54:04):
don't think you can take that for granted. I think
teams are going to emerge. I think teams are going
to make moves. I think, you know, you catch the
Orlando Magic on the right day or the wrong day,
depending on your perspective, you could lose a series to them.
They're they're a very talented team, and other teams are
going to emerge and.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
They've already made a move, right.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
I'm saying after the main move for sure.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, like I and you know, there's
just not a lot of mechanisms. And for the Cavs,
who aren't you know, just over the second apron, it
would take a lot to make an aggregation type move
to dump enough salary to not only make that move legal,
but then to be able to fill out the roster.

(54:47):
And you know, one of the things that they have
to deal with is when a lot of these guys
have signed, you know, coming off of rookie deals and stuff.
It's not even the full max, like when you talk
about like those stars, like they're almost paid closer to
the role players in the league than they are the stars.
So because you have all these guys on value contracts,
that makes the logistics even more difficult. So from you

(55:09):
a Cav's perspective, I think Carter and I in terms
of feeling like there's not going to be a major shakeup.
It's just been the logistics. It's been that it's just
too difficult to find a way to make that possible.
And I use the Okac example. Right, they came up short,
they lost in the second round. They went out and
they brought in Hartenstein and then they brought in Alex Caruso.

(55:32):
To me, I think Cavs bring in in DeAndre Hunter
was one of those types of moves.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
They just need to.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
Find that other little bit of value in the margins,
find that other role player that helps mask some of
their flaws. It's not like those guys solved every problem
for the Thunder either, right, Like, they were still a
really bad rebounding team. They are still one of the
highest foul teams in the league. They still had some
issues offensively, but they gave them just enough to overcome
those flaws and ultimately win a championship.

Speaker 5 (55:59):
Yeah, I can give maybe they like a little bit
of hope here, right one, we've already talked about it.
Team's really good, So here you're already that's good. Yeah,
the Calves could take one of their big salaries. They
could call the Brooklyn Nets. And the reason why I'm
calling the Nets out specifically is because they're the only
team that projects to have major caps space this offseason.

(56:22):
They could call them and say, hey, well, you eat
this contract for us. But here's the thing. Yeah, that's
going to give you some flexibility, but you're going to
be worse, Like you're just not going to be better
for a move like that, and you are not in
the position of, yeah, we're on the downs slope here, right,
it's time to start get off this money at all costs, Like,

(56:43):
let's really start start over. We're nowhere near that territory.
The other part that I think should really give people
hope is we talked about it, right, they're kind of
limited to minimum contracts, right, are going to be kind
of the way forward.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Here's the good news.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
Minimum contracts have way more spending power when they're coming
from a good team that's a contender, guys, especially.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
After all these late breaking things.

Speaker 5 (57:06):
Yeah, yeah, when we're a week in the free agency
and most of the money is dried up and a
good player is like, man, there's just I don't have
Like Gary Trent Junior for example, last summer, all right,
a lot of the money's gone, right, it's it's gone.
Where where you know? All right, where do we want
to go? Then when the Cavs are like, I want

(57:26):
to come here, play a role on a contender, Yes,
yes I do.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Let's go.

Speaker 5 (57:30):
And that's Those are the things that you can see,
you know, help kind of get you to a place
where you feel a little bit better. I've already seen
a couple of people. So you guys deal with it
two even more than I do. We're like, man, if
they don't resign, tide your own, they're just being cheap.
That's not really the case, right If if it was,
trust me, i'd call it out. I have no problem

(57:51):
calling that out.

Speaker 1 (57:52):
It's more of.

Speaker 5 (57:53):
A all right, we're gonna we're gonna further you know,
the second Apron issues we have and make it even
harder on ourselves and all those things. So these are
all factors that right, they're just living in a little
bit of a different world than they've been living in
the past couple of years as they were building this
thing out. The last part I'll say too, because we
didn't get into it is a lot of people like,

(58:15):
how like, how did they get here? Well, you have
a bunch of guys on Max Steels and boyd, what
a horrible thing that Evan Mobley won Defensive Player of
the Year. It made himself a whole bunch more money
because he's awesome, right, Like, you know, that's where it's like,
we got to keep it in perspective. That happened because
he's awesome. Donovan Mitchell was happy in Cleveland and re

(58:35):
signed on a big deal. That's a good thing, right, Like,
we should be very happy, you know too. I'm not
saying you should be jumping up and down and throwing
a Second Apron party. You shouldn't be, but you should
be like, all right, it's okay because we're a second
Apron team or where on June twenty third, as we talk,

(58:56):
we're one of the short list of title contenders. Other
teams will come on that list, other teams will drop
off that list. But as it stands today, no one
can argue this seems out of title contender, and that
to me is that starts to make the burdens of
the Second Aprin a lot more easy to digest.

Speaker 3 (59:12):
Totally agree, you know, it's it's daunting. It's going to
be interesting to see you know this has been a
very creative front office. It'll be interesting to see how
they approach the offseason. I continue to think, you know,
exploring every single option available to them. That's what they
owe themselves to do. Right as they approach the second
Apron world, they need to explore that. But you're right,

(59:33):
like you have at least some level of confidence because
of how good this roster is, how good they were
in the regular season, because of the ability to have
that kind of internal growth and still potentially to take
step forwards with guys like Evan Mobley, like Darius Carland
and the young players on this roster, so really really interesting.
We'll see what they do. You know, as you said,

(59:53):
there's no doubt that the gaz are contender. There's no
doubt that you are one of the greatest CBA experts
out there. We really really do appreciate having you on.
Great to have you back on the podcast before we
let you go. Anything that you want to plug for
our listeners.

Speaker 5 (01:00:08):
Yeah, we talked a couple times about my off season
preview about the Calves. We are now twenty eight of
thirty teams in the last two Pacers and Thunder will
come probably tomorrow that'll be on Tuesday. Those will come
up if you're just looking for if you are interested,
like might be available for the minimum. My top fifty
NBA free agents this offseason is posted on spot track,

(01:00:30):
as well as position ranks for each the traditional positions
point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward, center. I
ranked every free agent in those into tiers. I'll approach
a lot of teams take as well, so you could
get all that information. I wrote something about all the
free agents, so all one hundred and fifty plus free agents,
I wrote a little.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Blurb on each one of them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:52):
Killer Keith.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
I love it.

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
I tell people all the time, I have like two
hobbies in life, basketball and I like Marvel. Beyond that,
I don't really I don't really do much else. So
in my family, obviously occasionally we got an interfere with
the other two. And then we'll have even more free
agent stuff coming out. I'll have a after the draft
and hopefully we get a kind of a wild draft

(01:01:15):
and a lot of trades. I'll have an updated spending
power projection for all thirty teams where they place what
they have to spend. And then last thing I'll pump
is NBA front off show. That's my podcast with Trevor Lane.
We go pretty much on a daily basis now that
we're into free agency, because this is our time to shine,
talking all the latest news and rumors and transactions and

(01:01:35):
trying to demystify some of the stuff around how do
some of these things happen? How did it work?

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
And get into that. We have a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
You are prolific as hell, and you are putting us
to shame and cart Carter and I are like, oh
my god, one or two podcasts a week.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
Hi, I am booped. Thank you so much Keith for
coming on. We really do appreciate you. We appreciate all
our listeners.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Apologies for the technical difficulties earlier on. Thank you for
sticking around with us. Make sure you like and subscribe.
Click that notification belts you know when we're going live.
If you're listening via podcast and you want to support us,
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(01:02:17):
sure you guys are staying safe out there. Until next time,
Go cats.