Maintaining The Magic

Justin and Carter go over the blowout win over the Orlando Magic and reflect on the improved depth and offense for the team this season. Before diving into a preview of Friday's showdown against the Boston Celtics and the things they are most interested in learning from that matchup. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to its being.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
What Carl slammed it out?

Speaker 3 (00:04):
Carl left wing, three ball, perfect.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Pop, the hell of block?

Speaker 1 (00:10):
The shot in the rim? How in the left hand
head of fowl.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves Media
fam Me. I'm your Hostjessein Rowan. The Chase Town is
presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves.
Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports
and TV, including Van Duel Sports Network without cable is
no cost and no commitment. Try for free at FuboTV
dot com Slash Calves.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Well.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Last night's game against the Orlando Magic looked nothing like
the playoff series we had last season. The Cavs were
dominant from start to finish. The starters got to rest early.
It was another fun night to be a fan of
the Cleveland Cavaliers, who are now one win shy of
last year's win total. Joining me today is my co host,

(00:54):
Carter Rodriguez. Carter, how you doing, Buddy.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
I'm doing well? And they matched last year's win total.
B They won forty eight last year.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
I thought it was forty nine.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Well, some would argue it should have been, but I wasn't.
And yet they have indeed matched and they are they're
half a game off from with their wind total end
of that. But I gotta tell you, buddy, I'm not
in a basketball mood because I just got finished putting
my kids to bead okay, and my daughter is reading
her first ever like real chapter book right like it's

(01:27):
a big moment and it's a mystery and we've been
like just ramping up every chapter and we get to
the end and they don't solve the mystery, and she
was pissed. I'm like trying to explain to her how
like there's the ambiguous ass ending for this kid's mystery book.

Speaker 1 (01:48):
I'm like, what are we doing now?

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Is this a cliffhanger or is this just how it's
being left?

Speaker 3 (01:53):
No, they just literally just don't solve it, and that's
the end of the book. They end up just deciding
to play something else instead of playing detective. And Milly
was like, well, I wanted to know what happened.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I was like, I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
This is just preparing her for watching the Sopranos, which
you know, I think we can figure out what happened
in the sopranos. If anyone wants to get after me
with that, I have strong, strong opinions on what happened
and why.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I get it for adult media, But what are we doing?
You know?

Speaker 2 (02:24):
You got to work them in. You have to, you know,
start introducing it slowly, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:29):
And the deep end, right, I'm unsatisfied. I wanted to
know who was tying that rope all through the neighborhood.
You know, It's not a very compelling mystery, but still
for a kid, it was pretty compelling. Okay, so the
game last night wasn't very compelling. The Calves completely smoked
the Orlando Magic. Because of that, I want to ask you,
what was your first disappointment and you really remember with media,

(02:51):
whether it be a movie or a book.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Oh man, that's a really good question.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Because I remember the first time I realized the movie
could suck. I went to the theater and I saw
Master of Disguise. It was my first time ever being
disappointed with a movie.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
I was so easy, you know.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
I remember I asked my dad once, like, what's the
worst thing you I ever made you take me to?
And he said spy kids. He hated spy kids.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
That's fair but I see, I love that.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
I just do.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
As a kid, I was, I was easy to please
as a kid, so I don't I can't remember it was.
I was definitely older, I feel than others. But Master
of Disguise truly was an awful.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Movie, just truly, truly awful and a really fun fact
that exists there and I'm pretty sure everyone knows it.
You know, the Calves were easy on the eyes. Though
it was not disappointing. It was a fun, fun performance
against the Orlando Magic. Obviously Orlando missing some key players
Jalen Suggs. His absence has really been felt by them,

(03:52):
but they did have battle Bank Cao, Franz Wagner, Wendell
Carter Junior called it a must win game for them,
and you know, you were spec Orlando to put for
their best shot, right. I think we talked about this
coming out of the All Star Break, that there's going
to be teams looking to set the tone heading for
the postseason. The Calves are going to be that litmus

(04:13):
test team for so many opponents and for Cleveland to
come out have you know, a start to the game
where neither team was really hitting a ton of shots,
but just kind of keep going at it, keep going
at it, getting quality looks against Orlando, and eventually, once
those floodgates open, DeAndre Hunter helped kick those in, by

(04:35):
the way, but once they opened up, they just didn't
close for the rest of the evening.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Kind of felt like Hunter's first like I don't know,
like marquee moment with the team, Like he had a
couple big threes in other games, but it was like
he took like I felt like that was the line
of demarcation for the game, where it was like, this
is close, this is close, this is close. Let me
hit three straight threes and open this game up in

(05:01):
a way that Orlando never kind of regained contact.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, it really was. And you know, Max Strus
got them going early. I said in our game threads
and the discord that hey, when Struce hits his first one,
he's probably going to heat up.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
And he did a really nice shooting night from him.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
And you know, it's funny to look back and reflect
on last year's series against Orlando because obviously how you play,
like when you play a team during the season matters
a lot, right, teams naturally go through ebbs and flows,
They have peaks, and valleys. So you can't look at
this win over Orlando and say, yeah, that's you know,
that's last year's team. They're they're playing well, they're not

(05:41):
playing well, Like you can't take too too much away
from it, But I still couldn't help but feel how
stark the contrast was from last year where last year
Donovan Mitchell playing through an injury, was everything like he
was the one that needed to get everything going offensively.
I wasn't him scoring. They just struggled to generate consistent offense.

(06:04):
Darius wasn't contributing how he wanted to it. At that point,
it was gone, like just up and down the roster,
they had so much trouble generating offense against this defense.
And for all of Orlando's struggles, they are still the
number two defense in the league. So on a night
where Donovan only gets eleven and five, and not because

(06:26):
you know, he's shooting poorly and they're locking him up
or anything like that, he just didn't need to generate
offense in that way. But for a night where he
contributed so little from a box score perspective, no Darius
in the lineup for them to score as comfortably as
they did against this good of a defense. I think
it just goes to show you how the evolution of

(06:49):
this team has really taken place where there is so
much depth and there is so many guys that can
contribute in a variety of ways.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, I mean it wasn't he wasn't really even playing
making that much like he led the team upside. But
but like at the end of the day, like I
just felt like they were running their stuff, and their
stuff was yielding really really good looks. And Struce was phenomenal,
absolutely phenomenal. I thought one of his best games of

(07:18):
the year, especially as a shooter. And you know, between Struce,
Hunter and Jerome plus just a dash of Isaac Okoro,
Like you got all the scoring you needed for the
entire game, and you know, those those four or five
guys are really all you needed. And that's not including

(07:41):
you know, Jarrett or Evan who had seventeen on nine shots.
Like it was a real testament to the depth of
the roster, real testament to like, you know, in a way,
it's kind of what this week has been about. You
go go up against the Knicks and you go, oh,
we ain't the same team anymore, you know, we don't.

(08:05):
We can kill you in a hundred different ways, thank
you very much. And then you go against the magic
and you say we ain't the same team. You ain't either,
but we definitely have gone up several notches. So if
you were hoping tonight was a night to prove that
you were you know what you were last year, you're

(08:27):
sorely mistaken. I mean, how many crises of confidence have
the Cavs caused this year?

Speaker 1 (08:31):
By the way, it's.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
Just been that's been their home mark trade is sending
teams into absolute shambles. And then you know, you go,
you look towards Friday, and the same thing presents. Are
you ready to prove to Boston that you ain't the
same team that is one and two against them in

(08:53):
the regular season, that lost for to one in the
playoffs last year, that has struggled to get your offense
going this year the only team really they've struggled against. Yeah,
their offense going. And it's such an opportunity in front
of them, and such a reflection of the fact that
they are different. They are meaningfully better. They are growing

(09:15):
and getting stronger and stronger every you know, month by month.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's it's what I find really interesting. Right, Like, Matt
Moore had a conversation about how he like firmly believes
that there's such thing in the regular seasons peaking too early, right,
And I think that there is something to that. My
argument would be, at least when it comes to the
Cleveland Cavaliers, you cannot make an argument that they've peaked
in the regular season because when your starters aren't playing

(09:43):
more than thirty minutes and you're experimenting and you're giving
guys run, Like I understand the net team results have
been phenomenal, but you're not throwing your fastball. You're not
doing that on a consistent basis. So unless you're artificially
like trying to hold down the success of guys like
a DeAndre Hunter or Ty Jerome so that the net

(10:04):
rating doesn't spike too soon, like, you can't make an
argument that they're peaking too early. And I just I
really really find it interesting because on the way up
throughout this kind of team building process with the Calves,
we kept looking at markers around the NBA, right, Like,
You're always going to think you're special, because that's just

(10:24):
human nature. You're always going to think you're the main
character of the universe that that's.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Just the way that it is.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
So you think that your guys are going to achieve
their ceiling and you're going to reach these heights. But
when we were interviewing people from Orlando and Atlanta and
Toronto and all these other young teams that were on
the rise, it was it was an open question of
which of these kind of young cores was going to
take that step forward, right. There was debates around the

(10:53):
draft of Evan Mobley or Jalen Suggs, and you know,
when Mobile was picked, people said, hey, we're going to
see what happens in a few years. It's going to
be interesting to track these two teams. And you know,
I think once again, Evan Mobley had a phenomenal performance.
He's been a big, big part of this team's success.
I think we've won in his career at a fifty

(11:15):
four win pace when Evan Mobley's in the lineup, So like,
obviously he's a big part of it. But it's just
amazing to me that this Calves team has really put
themselves forward in comparison to teams like it, you know, Orlando,
and not to mention the other teams, that we interviewed,
like Atlanta and Toronto and some of the other young

(11:37):
cores that we thought might be growing alongside the Calves
and bro This is where I just keep going back
to the fact that they made the right choices on
the road. They didn't miss they didn't bail on anyone
too early, they didn't hang on to anyone too long. Really,
with the only exception you could really make is the

(11:57):
JB argument. But you know, at the end of the day,
like that, their roster construction has held firm, and you know,
I still fundamentally believe that giving him another year.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Was the right call.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Like that's but that's certainly I felt like it was
a defensible call and one I think both of us
wanted them to make, so we certainly aren't going to
play you know, hindsight is twenty twenty here, But you know,
they've just made the right calls. And I forget who
it was, it was either s or Matt Moore that
was like, man, I just feel.

Speaker 3 (12:30):
So bad for the Kings. You know, they had one
year being fun and on the rise, and now everything's
kind of a mess again. And that just kind of
goes to like making the right calls investing in the
right players getting lucky in the right ways. Like I
tweeted during that during last night's game, with four minutes
and seventeen seconds left in Game seven of the first

(12:53):
round against the Magic, the Calves were down eighteen points.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
And sure you.

Speaker 3 (13:01):
Can credit organizational philosophy and fortitude, but also how much
credit do you have to give to the players make
for gritting up making that comeback. Thank you Donovan for
going absolutely ballistic in the second half of that game
and getting us to the second round. Because I don't
know if any of this happens, I don't know the math,

(13:22):
the whole math changes if you lose again to a
less talented, more physical team in the first round, like
and so like some of this stuff does just exist
on a knife's edge at the end of the day,
and you just I just keep going back to the
word grateful for the season they're having, because there's a

(13:45):
trillion roads, a trillion outcomes. You know, not to go
you know, full doctor strange on you, but like you know,
there's a lot of outcomes where this isn't happening. So
the fact that we're in the timeline that it is,
I'm very happy. Yeah, Well, you know, I think, as
you corrected me, that we have already matched last year's

(14:05):
win total and we've exceeded our Vegas over under for
the season at least the initial line already. Like I
think it's a good time to kind of reflect on that, because,
let's be honest, forty eight wins is a pretty successful season.
Like that's that's better than a lot of teams get to.
I forget how long it's been since the Washington Wizards
have had a fifty win season, but like a lot

(14:26):
of fan bases don't get up to forty eight, right, Like,
there were so many years that we've been podcasting and
covering this team where just getting to five hundred seemed
like a tall, tall kind of hill to climb, And
just reflected on last year of everything that the team
went through and just you know how difficult some of
those stretches were. Like this, rocks Man, like, this has

(14:49):
been a lot of fun, and I think it's a
big part of why, at least for myself, I've always
tried to compartmentalize both the regular season and the playoffs.
I can have an eye towards the postseason and kind
of view it as a separate entity that we're working towards,
while still really enjoying the fact that for eighty two nights,
I get to live and die with my team. I

(15:09):
get to talk about it with other cast fans, I
get to talk about it with you, like to me
that this is just such a big important part of
the fan experience. And as much as like my sights
are one hundred percent on what this team could accomplish
this season, and I'm like insanely excited about the opportunity
for this team to potentially win a championship this year.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like I'm I'm thoroughly thoroughly enjoying the ride. And I
don't think how I look back on this season is
going to be impacted a whole lot by the postseason,
at least when it comes to like regular season fondness.
Of course, if they underachieve in the postseason, that's going
to put a sour taste in your mouth. But like,
this has just been such a fun run in and
when you have this kind of well founded hope, like

(15:56):
it's not a long shot that this team can contend
they are or can tender, that's a really really special
spot to be in.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah, You're absolutely right. And by the way, uh, isn't
it so interesting that Orlando is just basically on our
curve right now? You know, they have they have the
come up, they address some roster some you know, immediate
roster concerns, and they have a year where everything goes wrong,
and like, I'll be interested to see what lessons they

(16:25):
take away in their front office, which I think is
built a very good team, because I feel like they're
they're going to have to make some hard calls at
the end of this year where they go, Okay, is
it that our roster is incompatible? You know, is there
not enough shooting in the front's Palo duo and not
enough like playmaking to like build a good offense or

(16:49):
are we just having a bad year.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
You know, I'm really happy to add a space.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I'm really happy to add cap space last off season
and sign Ksep instead of this because they might throw
a max contract at Tidrow after what.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
He did to them. Yes, you're not wrong about that.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
So, you know, it is just interesting to see all
these teams that kind of ebb and flow and figure
out how they're going to deal with the kind of
because like when you're in it last year, it's you're
forgiven for being woe is me? Right of like, oh man,
can we just catch a break? Like, oh, this is
going to mess up our whole team building process, and uh,

(17:25):
you know, maybe our guys are just injury prone and
you're having all these kind of thoughts in your head.
And then at the end of the day, it's like
you look at Orlando, who are you know, generally sturdy
as hell, Like they were really really healthy all last
year and they're having the year from hell this year.
And sometimes you just have to remember you like I
almost want to like go counsel their front offs and

(17:45):
be like, chill, guys, like you have a really good team.
It's just been a weird year for you.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Yeah, And I would advise fans not to write them off,
Like I think that that's a team that's going to
hang around. I wouldn't be surprised to see them give
a team hell in the postseason. I think that they
are going to have longevity. I think that's a team
that's going to be someone that we're going to have to,
you know, measure ourselves against still in the future in
the Eastern Conference, and is going to be coming for

(18:11):
the Cavs. But I just I really think, you know,
kind of that key takeaway of we have so many
more guys that can contribute, that can initiate offense, that
can finish plays offensively. That's that's one of the biggest differences,
because you know, getting another good offensive performance against an
elite defense. That's an important thing for us to see.

(18:33):
The Calves still have the number one offense in the league.
When it comes to how they play against top ten defenses,
they have a one to twenty one offensive rating in
those games. The next closest is the Knicks, and they're
almost two points worse. That's a pretty big gap when
you're talking about how you perform against the best teams.
But you brought this up to me recently in a conversation,

(18:54):
and it's something that I've been meaning to touch on.
Is back in twenty two to twenty three, when the
Caves lost to the Knicks, they had the number one
offense against top ten defenses in the league. That was
something that was true back then. It wasn't just that
they were beating up on the worst teams in the league.
And I think, you know, we did a good job
in the lead up to that series of highlighting, Hey,

(19:16):
there's been some struggles against the Knicks, even though overall
the Cavs have quality wins. We have the twenty fourth
best offense against the Knicks. Like, when you look at
how teams perform, they struggle on that end. They really
struggle to end possessions with defensive rebounds, even though their
overall defense is good and all of that remained true
when you get to the playoffs. But the thing that

(19:38):
jumps out to me is when you just look at
the depth of that team, And I think that was
why coming out of that series where we were saying,
just got to improve the supporting cast, Like the core
needs to be better. We know Evan needs to take
a step forward, we know Darius, Donovan, Jarrett all need
to be better.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
But a lot of.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
This is the supporting cast. Because when the Corps four
played with Isaac Okorro in that series, they had a
plus thirteen net rating. When they played with Caras, they
had a plus four net rating. But when you look
at the minutes leaders outside of that, it was Caris,
then it was Jetty, then it was o'corl, Danny Green
and Ricky Rubio. We are in a much much different

(20:16):
scenario this season. And that goes beyond just you know,
recognizing how much better every member of the core four
is now than they were back then.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
Well, you know, that really does set up my point
that the calves are We've talked a lot about the
calves death. We've talked a lot about forty eight minutes
of how about them not having to play any lineups
that just kill them and no one else gets to
do that. Really, and I went ahead and just looked
at the twenty five most played.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
Five man lineups this year.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Only six of those twenty five And by the way,
like the twenty fifth is like they've played thirty minutes together,
So this is like these are some of these liners
have barely played, even down at the bottom, so it
certainly is top heavy. And only of the top twenty five,
only six of them have a negative net rating, and

(21:08):
only one of them does not feature players who are
not longer who are no longer on this team, and
that one lineup is like the eighth most played lineup,
and it's like minus two. It's not like they don't
have any like, well, we play this at a four
to five minutes every game, and it always gets schlected
like they don't have that. Every single lineup they play

(21:30):
is consistently good against every opponent, and that is such strength,
and that's not strength at the bottom of your roster
in terms of your depth. While I think the Cavs
have that, I think the fact that there the middle
class of their roster it works so well in so

(21:53):
many different ways.

Speaker 1 (21:54):
With the upper.

Speaker 3 (21:55):
Class of its roster that you just don't play. There's
no lineups that can't succeed, and that stuff vodes so
well given that the core four in the playoffs has
always performed well.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
That's not to say.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
They've always performed well on offense well, which will remain
my angst. I was really really hoping that when you
mentioned me looking up their offensive rating two years ago
against top teams, I was like, I was almost hoping
it was bad so we could be like, well, look
at it now. So you know, at the end of
the day, we're not gonna find the silver bullet that

(22:32):
makes us feel like the offense is gonna still put
up one twenty per one hundred possessions in the in
the postseason, but like, so we have to find all
these other anecdotal things to try to piece together the
case for why it will be different this time.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and that's why, you know, we've consistently said, even
though we both firmly believe that this team is a contender,
we've said that there is nothing that can happen in
the regular season at this point. Even even if we
went out and we blew Boston out by forty on
Friday in Boston, there's nothing that's going to make you say, Okay,
the Calves should be the favorite in this series. I

(23:06):
firmly believe that they can win that series, but you're
going to give that nod to the team with experience.
You are going to need to see the Calves offense
translate to the postseason. You're going to need to see
these guys step up. And I think you know, the
important distinction in what you're saying about how we haven't
seen the court not work in the playoffs is we've

(23:28):
seen them individually struggle. But even through their struggles, even
you know, mobilely averaging or scoring one point as a
role man in the entire Knick series, Darius a shell
of himself last postseason. Despite all of that, you know,
positive net rating against the next positive net rating against
Boston even with no Jared Allen there, right, Like, it

(23:50):
still has worked and there was room for growth with them,
but so frequently that the question has been okay, is
there enough from a supporting cast standpoint? Is this going
to translate? Can our stars be stars in the series?
And that's going to be the biggest question, right, Like
when we talk about looking forward to Friday and whatnot,
you want to have some film of Evan Mobley having

(24:12):
success so offensively, I'm gonna want to see Darius playwell,
and you know, if they don't, that's going to be
a question heading into the series. It's going to be
a question even if it goes well, but if they don't,
it's okay, Like this is going to be something.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
We're going to see what they can do.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
To close that gap between now and late May.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
Yeah, it's uh, I'm pretty uh. I'm pretty hype for
this Celtics game, justin I think it's important. I don't
think I don't know how many important like quote capital
I important games the Cavs have left in the regular season.

Speaker 1 (24:50):
Is this by far?

Speaker 3 (24:51):
Is this the most Is this the only one left?
In terms of like, we don't we don't play.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Okay, see again, Like, I don't think that there's a
whole lot that can happen in the two remaining games
against the Knicks that would make me feel different about
those series. Like, barring injury, I feel pretty confident about
what the Cavs are capable of doing. If they came
out and laid an egg, you know that could happen.
But I'm my feelings on that series in that matchup
are not going to change, And even though that is

(25:18):
true against Boston, I still want to see success there.
I want to continue to learn more about that individual matchup.
I want to see what does Evan Mobley have a
different approach, even if let's say he misses some of
those kind of in between shots. Let's say, okay, he's
just attacking porzingis a little differently than he did in

(25:38):
the last matchup. He looks a little more under control
and the jumper didn't fall. Like that kind of stuff
to me would be really really interesting. That's the kind
of stuff that I'm really looking forward to in that game.
And I'm also really interested assuming Darius Garland plays, which
I forget who reported it, but apparently it was a
full participant in practice. Prior to the Magic game, it

(25:59):
was a I think you're I think you're.

Speaker 3 (26:03):
I think it was him because he's an unusual Cavs
report guy.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah that I think you're.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
You're correct there, so full participant two days off before
this game in Boston. What the first thing that I'm
really looking forward to is how deep does Ken he
go with everybody available versus Boston. We know kind of
in our mind who we think the top nine is
going to be. Is that actually going to occur? Is
you know, are the core going to play really well

(26:30):
against them? With Max Struce again? Like that that worked
really well in the last game. But it's a small
sample size, Like all these kind of little things that
I want to learn about the matchup. I hate that
we have to wait until matchup four to see the
team fully healthy against Boston and kind of get an
idea for how Ken He's going to deploy them. But
I'm really interested to kind of keep an eye on

(26:51):
that in that game.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah. Uh, and by the way, do we know their
top nine? Do we?

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Justin I said, we have an idea in our head
of who we think the top nine should be. But
I still think Kenny's going ten in this game, Like,
I don't think he's going to trim it down to nine,
but I think we know who the top ten at
least is going to be.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Yes, I think that's certainly fair. And that's what I'm
actually most interested to see is will he trim it down?
You know, this is a tough matchup for Sam Merril.
They switch like crazy, They don't give him any airspace.
They attack him on the other end of the floor. Like,
does he just go, Hey, we're bigger, we have the

(27:35):
ability to play bigger lineups than we did last time around.
You know, we're not starting him as small forward like
we did in one of these matchups, Like, we have
the tools to play the way we want to play
without giving up all this size in this particular matchup.

(27:55):
Because I do think there are matchups where Sam is
going to be super valuable, super helpful in terms of
just you know, using his gravity to to destabilize the
defense and places where maybe you can hide him a
little easier, either in a zone or you know, or
just in your switching scheme. But I'm interested to see

(28:17):
does he how bad? Does can he want to win this?
And will he you know, challenge some of his own
principles on the road to doing so.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Like I expect Sam and to play. I think Sam's
been playing very well defensively.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
He's playing unbelievably well just period right now.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Like I think that he's probably going to go ten.
But just how he uses these guys who he pairs
them with, right like I think probably like it goes
to show you just how deep this team is on
the defensive end of the floor. But like our worst
defender might be ty Jerome and even he's got active
hands and can be, you know, an event defender at times.

(28:55):
Like I'm interested to see kind of what combinations can
he use and kind of what pairings he feels helps
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(29:20):
I am really excited for this game, man. I hope
you know obviously that Darius is going to be available.
I hope everyone from Boston is. I saw Porzingis was
dealing with a bit of a flu and Brown was
dealing with some knee soreness.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Brown is not playing against Detroit tonight. They're down by
sixteen in the fourth in Detroit as they go for
their eighth straight win. Which how about JB. Bickerstaff got
to give him a lot of love there. I have
a rotational question for you, brother man. Okay, so I
know you have been on team Start DeAndre Hunter, as

(29:56):
you know I'm on team star Max s trus Yep.
Though I think you've made some very compelling arguments. Does
watching some of these games play out over the last
couple last couple of days. The Memphis game, I think,
in particular, really flew out at me. Where the ability

(30:18):
with Hunter off the bench, just to put him in
any with any combination, so easily being able to say, Okay,
we're actually gonna have you come get Mobiley to start
and we're going to play you know, uh okoro ocoro,
struce Hunter on the wings, or have him come in

(30:40):
with Dean and then you play him at the three
and and maybe shift Strus down to the two. It's
felt really easy for Kenny to land with massive lineups
that feel really really good against other teams second units,
which I knew theoretically, which is part of the reason

(31:02):
I liked it. But has the feel of it changed
your opinion at all?

Speaker 2 (31:08):
No, I think it's I've been completely validated in my take,
which is that I was totally fine with Max Threw's starting.
I think that's a terrific lineup. It's been great this year.
But my entire point was if DeAndre Hunter is not starting,
he is not going to get minutes with the Core
four because teams can't keep it competitive long enough against

(31:30):
the Cavs. The way that Kenny goes deep in his
rotation is going to make it so that he's not
going to get those opportunities. And he has not played
a minute with the Core since his last start with
the Core, which I believe was his first game with
the Cleveland Cavaliers. So like, I really like, I'm totally
fine with starting Max. I'm fine with starting Max going

(31:52):
into the playoffs. I just think that DeAndre Hunter is
a potential closing lineup with those guys. When you look
at how the Core with DeAndre Hunter lines up against
the Boston Celtics. That's a spot where the Calves have
more length at almost every position on the court. Donovan
Mitchell is a longer player than Derek White, DeAndre Hunter

(32:12):
is longer than Jalen Brown. Evan Mobley is longer than
Jason Tatum Porzingis, and Jared Allen. Porzingis has an edge there,
but you know it's at least throughout the guts of
both of those lineups, the Calves have a length advantage,
and I just don't think that that is something that
you are going to frequently have. And as much as
people have those conversations on the defensive end, I think

(32:34):
with what Boston does from a scrambling offense standpoint, from
an ability to make it harder for them to really
take away the guards, having that long rangey shooter that
is comfortable rising up over defenders and is almost as important,
not as like from a play initiation standpoint, but I

(32:54):
think from a keeping the defense on a standpoint, I
think that's almost as important as.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
Evan Mobley as of front coal Hub.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
I hear you, and I think all this is good,
and this I think makes it such a good argument
because I really do think that I don't know if
there's an objectively right side to it, because where I
kind of go is, Yeah, maybe he's not going to
get a tremendous amount of minutes with the Core four,
and that does seem to be a bit of a

(33:23):
seems a little scary, But he's gonna get a ton
of menace with three of them at a time.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Ye, Like, it's the whole of my argument. No, you
know you're correct in pointing that out. And the other
like counter to that is DeAndre Hunter since he's joined
the Cavs has looked like a seamless pitch no matter
what the lineup is. He just knows how to play
off of guys. It's not like he needs to get
some feel for oh where does Donovan like to get

(33:49):
this kind of pass? Because know what, DeAndre and here
for passing. He's there to finish plays, get stops, be
active like this is this is I think the rucks
of it, you know, like he's there to finsh place.
Like I understand your point.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
I think his job is simple enough in both contexts,
you know, compared to others. It's funny the people what
I'm actually if I'm Kenny, what I'm most interested in
is him playing with the two bigs at the same time,
because that's the hardest thing to do for them if
he doesn't start, because those guys really mostly start the

(34:27):
first quarter, start the third quarter, and close the game.

Speaker 1 (34:30):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (34:32):
So like, even though I think he's gonna get plenty
of time with Darius and Donovan at the same time,
and even if it's just one of them, I don't
think the Cavs meaningfully changed the way they play that
much when Ty comes out there, Like, I think they're
pretty much playing the same style of ball. So like,
while there's some something to be said about like playing
with a guy and knowing his idiosyncrasy is up close, Like,

(34:54):
I don't think stylistically his job changes that much. I
do think his job a little bit with Mobile and
Allen together, you know, he goes from being a small
ball four or you know, being a very switchy three
next to Dean Wade and those lineups too, Like, oh,
I need to go be like a bulldog at the

(35:15):
point of attack, and I need to play defensively, differently
and offensively. I need to occupy different parts of the
floor to make sure I'm apprope because of your space.
It's just becomes more crucial to space appropriately when you
have less shooting on the floor. So that is the
one caveat that I would say is if I'm kidny,
I am trying, I would like to tweak things just

(35:37):
a little bit to get him time with the two bigs.
But again, I don't think he has to start to
do that. But going back to your point, if he's
not going to tweak things, then maybe he should start.
I don't know, man, it's a tough question to solve
for and I know you also.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
I completely agree with you. I think that as a
front court trio is more important than playing with the
guards like Darius and Donovan, They're going to figure it out.
I like, their job initiating the offense isn't going to
be that different. I still like, I do believe that
DeAndre Hunter in that spot at small forward alongside the
two bigs, it's going to be a pretty easy role

(36:17):
for him, right Like, just because it's two bigs. The
way that they play is very similar to how they
play even when they are going four out right, because
you're going to see you know, Jared Allen and Evan
Mobley up at the three point line. Even when they're
both there right, like, just from a screaming screening standpoint
and just the variety of offense they run. The spacing

(36:39):
is there because you have to account for them defensively.
As a screener. You can't just say, oh, you know,
it's Jared Allen saying the screen, I can sit back
in the paint. No, Donovan and Darius are going to
kill you. The second and third actions here are going
to kill you. So you're going to have spacing from
that standpoint, But I just like, I just want to
get the reps in man like I and going into

(37:00):
this game, I'm a little uncomfortable that if they do
play minutes together, it's the first time they've played together
since they played the Toronto Raptors, and the Boston Celtics
are not the Toronto Raptors. Like it's I just I
want to see I want to see it.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
I think, really what it comes down to is, I'm
not worried about the starters against Boston. I'm worried about
second units. I think our starters can and should be
able to hang with their starters who don't even have
a positive net rating on the season. Shouts to you
for that stat unbelievable. So if there is so like
where we've lost is in those second quarters where they

(37:39):
make a run with in We've got you know, Darius
or Donovan getting caught on Chris Stap's hip and George
Niang trying to protect the rim while Evan is guarding
Derek White on the other side of the floor because
you can't leave him. Like, that's the stuff that kills us,
That's the stuff that killed us last year. And until

(38:01):
I'm proven that that's not what kills us, I'm going
to roll with the thing that has empirically made this
matchup hard for us.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
And you know, one game where Max started against Boston,
they had a plus nineteen net rating if you look
at so take that first match up against Boston where
Sam Merril was starting at the three and Ty Jerome
played a bunch of three and we didn't have a
single wing available. If you look at the two kind
of subsequent games, Core four when they're on the court,
no matter who they were with, had a one on
one defensive rating. That like, that's going to hold how

(38:33):
we play against them defensively. I'm interested to see how
it changes now that when we go to these you know,
second unit lineups. You're able to have Dean Wade out there.
This is going to be the first time that he's
played against Boston this season. You're going to have DeAndre
Hunter out there. You're going to have more length than
you had in the past. But it is even with

(38:55):
that length, I'm not interested in changing up the scheme
of how we played against I'm I'm okay with you know,
them continuing even with the length. If they want to
take Jason Tatum mid range jumpers against Darius Garland, he
can take nineteen of those for all I care, like,
even if he hit sixty percent of them in this game,
I Am going to live with that trade off, and

(39:17):
that would be an outlier because he is a bad
mid range shooter. He is like a thirtieth percentile mid
range shooter, and he is shooting terribly us Darius this season.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Here's where the length helps.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
It's not that you have It's not that it allows
you to execute the scheme you already have better because
Darius is still gonna get caught on Tatum and every
now and again, Tatum's gonna be Darius and you're gonna
need to help. Okay, That's fine. And every now and again,
Darius or Donovan is gonna get caught on Porzingis on

(39:51):
the nail, which is the scariest. I think that's the
number one thing that has made the Cavs look like
crap against Boston is when one of the guards gets
caught with Perzingis on the nail, he can throw it anywhere.
All those passing lanes and angles are super easy. He attacks.
They have to put two on the ball game blouses.

(40:11):
That is the worst thing that happens against the Celtics
for this Cavs team and this Caves scheme. However, what
this length allows you to do is tag people that
f out. That's what you need to be able to
do is when they run an off ball action to
go get Darius on Porzingis, someone like Hunter can tag

(40:36):
him out and close and then they can use all
that length to close those cross court passes for open
threes that otherwise they can't close out. Yeah they can.
And then once you get that, once you get Wade
or Hunter on Porzingis, yeah he's still a really good
post scorer. Yeah, every now and again he's gonna kill you.

(40:56):
But like there are certain things with a team as
good as Boston. You just have to step might happen defensively,
which is, by the way, why I remain most worried
about our offense, because I think we can control that better. Yeah,
but like those are those are the kinds of sacrifices
I'm willing to live with. I'm not really willing to
live with Darius Garland in a post up on an

(41:16):
island against Christaps Porzingos, and by the way, neither is
Kenny Atkinson because they've had to put two on the
ball and two on the ball against Boston is death.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yep, yep, I totally agree.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Like it's that that's the one spot where I don't
think you can just guard them straight up right like
everywhere else, I am fine with guarding them straight up.
And like, wait, when Tatum gets onto Garland, it reminds
me a lot of when the Spurs put Bores Dil
on Lebron, where it's like, all right, this is going
to bait him into his worst habits. He is going
to take a pull up jumper, a mid range jumper

(41:49):
every single time, and we're going to live with that.
If he decides to go to the rim, which this
is the same thing with Tatum and Garland. When he
goes to the rim, we are going to have help
defenders there. We're going to have Evan Mobley and Jared Allen,
just like they had Tim Duncan Antiago Splitter out there.
They able to you know, disrupt some of those shots
at the rim. The porzingis thing that's going to be interesting.

(42:11):
I'm going to be really really interested to see who
ends up on him, how they're able to you know,
tag out and get the length there. DeAndre Hunter and
Dean Wade I think can both Like I will live
with porzingis shooting over DeAndre Hunter or Dean Wade, even
if he's hitting those shots. That is a almost every

(42:32):
single player on the Boston Celtics, if they are shooting
over a cow's defender and you're not bringing to the
ball and you're not giving up these wide open looks
and opportunities.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
I will live with that.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
The one exception is porzingis on Garland or on Mitchell,
or on Ty Jerome or on Sam Marris.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
Just not getting contested at that point. He's just not no, no.

Speaker 2 (42:54):
That That is like the extreme example where I'm like, well,
you know, I hate the whole shoot for guys kind
of talking about he's seven to three. Yeah, yeah, No,
that guy is massive. When it's a what difference? It's
a difference?

Speaker 3 (43:07):
Can we talk about the other side of the ball,
because that's where I'm again, I remain the most focused.
It's where the Calves have had the biggest drop off.
They have a one twenty two point like one offensive
rating on the season. They're like one thirteen point eight
against Boston. They're not losing these games on the defensive
end of the floor. They are losing them on the
offensive end of the floor when they've lost.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
Yeah, And.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
I don't know what it's not like the Calves don't
face other teams who are pretty good at switching, or
that are physical or have good guards that can guard
up like other teams can do that. What is the
difference to with the Celtics team that makes it so
hard for them to get their offensive because it.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Feels like.

Speaker 3 (43:51):
Even on the games they've scored well, it's been Donovan's
playing really well and scoring really well. It doesn't feel
like they've been able to engage the Cavaliers death.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Machine on offense against Boston so far.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
No, I don't know if it's ever going to feel
that way just because Boston is able to keep pace,
you know, in most matchups. I think what has felt
kind of the most consistent in the three matchups against
Boston this season is that it has taken them a
quarter to get going, and they press and they rush it.

(44:29):
And whether it's the matchup, whether it's you know that
the games have been nationally televised and knowing that there's
a focus on it, whatever kind of the cause is,
they are taking themselves out of how they traditionally play.
You know, I think everyone is so excited to kind
of make the play that they are just getting out
of their game a little bit. And that's one of

(44:50):
those spots where you know.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
The rest, like every jumper is rushed and stressful for
the offensive player and they.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Get you know, can systemly good looks like they are
going to get, you know, wide open shot attempts versus Boston.
I'm not too worried about that. Boston gives up a
lot of those, particularly since Kristaps Porzingis has come back
and they play a little differently defensively than they do
without Horford.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
I just think it's.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Going to come down to do they play under control,
I think if they play under control and the results
are similar, Like you know, Evan Mobley is not forcing
it at the rim against Porzingis and Al Horford. You know,
Garland is getting to his floater rather than trying to
get all the way to the rim, which you know,
I think sometimes he's tried to do a little bit
too much inside the paint. If the process is better,

(45:42):
I care about that more than the results, as much
as I really, like, deeply want to see the results
validate that process. I want to see do we approach
this game with a little more maturity than we did
in those other games? Because I feel like in those
other games, once the Cavs have settled in, they have
managed to orwell, they have managed to come back and
win a game. They have managed to come back and

(46:05):
contest to the other ones right where it is within
five points in the last five minutes, right, They have
been able to do that in every single one of
these matchups. Can they put their best foot forward at
the start in a hostile environment, one of you know,
one of the tougher road arenas to go into and win.
Are they able to get it done in that setting?

(46:27):
Are they able to show that composure that to me
is the number one thing that I'm looking for Friday.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
If the Celtics are a whole, would this be the
best win of the season.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
I am going to say okay See was still the
best win the home game against Oka See because Oka
See has been a better regular season team. I think
Boston okay See is still on the kind of cash
trajectory of we have something to prove every single game
is going to be a stay in the matchup. I

(47:02):
think the Caves could come out and punch Boston in
the mouth and it wouldn't change how the Celtics feel
about themselves going into that series. You know, they've already
got their wins against Cleveland this season. If they split
the season series, I don't think it means as much
to them. And like, honestly, okay So should probably be
the title favorite. Like if there's a series against Boston,

(47:25):
I think that they can get Boston, Like I don't.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
They will, they would get Boston, Yeah, Like I.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Would pick them in a series. I don't believe Boston
has beat them this season.

Speaker 3 (47:33):
Like again, the Calves are having a historically good year
and okay See, by the metrics, is a lot better.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Yeah, it's you know, I think that that was the
best one that we had, particularly, you know, it being
at the time where it's like, okay, can the Calves
get a statement win? So much build up, like a
week worth of build up by you know, the NBA,
NBA partners, You get all these kind of interviews and
all that kind of stuff that could add pressure to

(48:04):
that matchup. I just don't think that this Friday game
is going to be kind of felt the same way.
And our buddy Anthony Lima brought up a terrifying possibility
on the radio that I think it was today where
he was saying, Joe Missoula is a big mind games guy.
Wouldn't be surprised if he rests some guys don't don't
let the Cavs get the tape take some air out.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Of this matchup. That would be infuriating.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
I'm going to be resentful if they're not, you know,
full I'm going to blame him too, you know what.
And we know that he is a listener and supporter
of this year podcast and we love you, Tony, but
you know I'm going to blame you for speaking that
in existence if it does occur.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Yeah, that would be disgusting and unethical and couldn't possibly
be me. Uh yeah, it's uh. I will say that
the Thunder game probably is the best win of the season.
I think this would this would be the most important
win of the season because right now, right this very second,

(49:05):
I still probably would pick Boston in a series. I
just think I think I haven't seen us solve the
problems they pose for us consistently enough. If they go
out and Boston goes out fully healthy in the garden
and we show something we put up a one to

(49:27):
twenty five offensive rating, I do think there is a
meaningful that's meaningful to me to see the offensive engine
get going. So I think it could be our most
important game of the season ben one way or the other,
because if they come out and put up another you know,
they followed down fourteen and get it back to four
and ultimately lose again, you know, I think I think

(49:52):
we're past moral victory season with Boston. Yeah, I think
they got to go win. They got to go show
that are that they have solved the problems that this
Boston team poses for them, or at least have solutions
for them. I think that's probably a better framing than solved,
because you don't really solve a team that's good. No, No,

(50:14):
It's going to come down to, you know, execution. You
play the series over ten times, you might get different
results every single time. I'm a live chat is booing
me right now for saying that I'm in trouble.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Good good.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
I was going to say, there's two things I want
to add to what you said, and the first, I
think is just an honest assessment of who I am
as a person. Even though I've said, you know, there's
nothing the Cavs can do to make themselves the favorite
in that series. If I'm being honest with myself, if
we were doing a season series preview, if I feel
there's even a ten percent chance the Caves are going

(50:48):
to win the series, I'm going to pick them in that. Seriously,
the most unfair thing about our podcast dynamic because if
I if I think there's a forty five percent chance
the Calves will win, I would pick the other team.
And if you think there's a forty five percent chance,
because I'm just literally saying what I think is most
likely to happen, I'm being an honest, objective statistician, and

(51:13):
you're sitting here, you know, play into the crowd and
literally saying that you think that they have a ten
percent chance of winning, and yet you get the bonus
points for picking the Calves. I I this is this
is sickening. Look behind me, Carter, there's a little plaque
there getting I'm getting destroyed right now. There's a lot

(51:34):
that's horrible for me. There's a little plaque right behind me.
It has a piece of the floor. When the Calves
came back from down three to one, don't tell me
the odds. Don't tell me that the Calves can't overcome
the percentages of the odds.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
I didn't.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
No, no, no, don't do you that you know I
have faith.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I have belief. I bleed wine and gold here. Man,
This this is what I do.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
I also have a caveat for you where I will
change my mind and say that this is the most
important win. If oh, yeah, we go into this game
and Evan Mobley looks like the best player on the court.
If Evan Mobley comes out and he has, you know,
a twenty eight ten or a twenty eight fifteen to
eight game against the Boston Celtics, I will say that

(52:20):
this is the most important win because I still firmly
believe Evan Mobley, how far he is able to elevate
himself is going to dictate how far this team can go,
how far they whether or not they can win a championship.
Evan Mobley needs to be at that level. As much
as I want to see Darius and Donovan play well,
I know that they are capable of it. I know

(52:41):
they're also capable of struggling in the matchup against two
elite defensive guards. Evan Mobley needs to be that game breaker.
So if he comes out and he looks like he
did against the Knicks, where he looked like the best
player on the court, that is going to be a
very meaningful thing for.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Me, and I will amend my stance.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
I will say though he did have twenty one to
ten and seven in that game against Okay, see, he's
pretty goddamn good.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
He was pretty good.

Speaker 3 (53:05):
But again, I just think Boston has there's some uh
you know, Jordan against the Bad Boy Pistons, Yep, you know,
like like some you have to come over over Timers
against the Lake, the Showtime Lakers, like Ron early on. Yeah,
there are certain teams that just you know, they've got

(53:25):
certain they know, they think they own you. I think
this Boston team has no fear of this Cavs team,
and I want to show I want the Calves to
put that bear into them at the end of the day.
And that's why this game I think matters so much.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah, and it's you know, that's really like what's on
the line, right It's the opportunity, the final opportunity of
this season to play a contender. You know, all due
respect to the New York Knicks and some of the
other teams that are kind on that bubble that you know,
can potentially win any series, but when it comes to

(54:05):
the true blue contenders, this is the last matchup that
we have against one we do not play.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Okay, see again this.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Year it's it's really really going to be an interesting game.
We're going to be able to learn more from the
you know, the rest of the regular season, but this
is our last chance to play Boston and no whether
or not we get the one seed.

Speaker 3 (54:26):
Val arrested by the way, come on, it's the time
is now, bro, like they could they this is the
time to make that statement, the last big statement.

Speaker 2 (54:38):
Here's here's the thing, Like the one seed isn't up
in the air anymore.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Like it's I.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Believe Boston lost and night is that correct?

Speaker 1 (54:46):
They did? They did?

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Okay, So with that loss, if the Calves go five
hundred the rest of the way, I think Boston would
have to go like eighteen and five to tithe if
the Calves when eighteen and the correct. If the Cavs
went eighteen and six, which is, you know, worse than
their season long pace, Boston could not catch them. If

(55:10):
they go undefeated. Yep, Like the one seed is not
up for grabs here, man, Like that is.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Long something absolutely disastrous, Yes, and perfect play out of Boston.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Yeah, It's just too hard of a hill to climb.
It was funny to see, you know. We came out
of the All Star Break with I think the fourteenth
toughest strength of schedule, and then after that weekend where
we smoked the Necks and you know, got that win
against Memphis, it dropped all the way down to twenty first.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
I haven't seen.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
Where it went after the mass Now, okay, so nineteenth,
like it's already fallen off a whole lot. So I'm
really really looking for this game. I'm hoping that Darius
is going to play. I think, you know, the signs
are at least positive in that direction. And you know,
let's hope that there's no Joe Miziula mind games here.

Speaker 3 (56:03):
Oh man, I hope not. I mean, I'm too hyped.
One thing that plays in our favor is it's a
national TV game. Yea, So the Point does care about
about that kind of stuff. What a run of I
don't know if we ever had this many national games
in a row.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
In the Lebron era. Bro, this is bananas, and we
keep handling a lot of them.

Speaker 3 (56:25):
Particularly got another one they just flexed the Sunday Night
against in Milwaukee up to ESPN.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, you know, it's like seven out of nine games.

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Milwaukee's not a true blue contender, but anytime you're playing
Giannis and Dam that's going to be a fun one
as well. But the Calves have done such a good
job in these National TV games so far this year,
and I feel like all the Friday ones that we've
really anticipated, I think Lakers Warriors, some of the other
ones that we've had this season have all kind of
turned up. They've all turned out to be these really

(56:57):
comfortable wins for the Calves and I because when it
happens on a Friday, the NBA national podcasters get to
ignore it, and I really don't.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Want that to be the case. But I will live
with them.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Ignoring it if it means the Cavs get a win
on Friday, Because, unlike you, Carter, I'm here rooting for
the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
I hate you.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
I hate you too, buddy, but I love our listeners.
Thanks to everyone tuning in on YouTube for putting Carter.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
In his place.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
He really needs that from time and time again. Appreciate
you guys hanging out with us. Make sure you like
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(57:42):
For sure, you guys are staying safe out there until
next time. Joki Stimann Sada san Se