May 13, 2025 • 50 mins
Justin and Carter react to the Cavs blowout loss in Game 4. Discussing what takeaways the Cavs can have from that game and how to apply it to Game 5. As well as what lessons they can learn and adjustments to their approach they'll need to make for both this series and moving forward.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This brow, this crowd of fowl.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves
Media family. I'm your host, Justin Rohan. The Chase Doown
is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves.
Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports
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dot com Slash Calves. The Cleveland Cavaliers were unable to
capitalize on their success in Game three, suffering a blowout
(00:38):
loss to the Indiana Pacers.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Joining me today is my co host that also just
can't seem to get right during this playoff journey, Carter Rodriguez. Carter,
how are you feeling, buddy?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Not good?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Uh, voices in rough shape. Turns out, when your son
coughs into your mouth for a straight week, chances of
you getting sick are pretty good.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
That sounds about right. I really wanted to blame you
for getting me sick, but ultimately I wasn't. I didn't
get sick from you because I got COVID for the
first time, you know, two weeks ago or a week ago.
Whenever that was and you didn't have it, so I
couldn't blame you. That was a little disappointing. Speaking of disappointing,
I would say that Game four for the Cleveland Cavaliers
(01:25):
is probably the most disappointing result that we've had from
this group when it comes to playoff performances. We've heard
a lot after their Game three win about how they
have to treat every single game like a Game seven,
that there was going to be an appropriate amount of intensity,
and I don't think, you know, listening to Kenny Atkinson,
listening to the player's post game, I don't think anybody
(01:48):
was happy with their effort.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I think when you have a game that goes.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That poorly, it's a failure top to bottom, right from
the first man to the fifteenth man to the coaching staff.
They did not come out with the necessary intensity and
have now put themselves in a serious hole when it
comes to the series.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
You know, it's just a litany of problems. I'm not
ready to say most disappointing game of the era of
the era. Actually, okay, I think I was. I was
so mad Game five against the Knicks when it just
came out. It was just the same game again.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and you know, I think what we're going to
see is does history repeat themselves?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
They are they able to come out in game five
regardless of who's available and put forward a better effort,
because to me, the result wasn't you know the disappointing thing.
I know, when we were talking before the game, I
didn't have a great feeling about Game four. I I
just kind of had a feeling that Indiana was going
to come out with some counterpunches. I was worried about,
you know, how guys were going to respond physically to
(02:55):
attempting to play through game three. But what we got
in game four I don't think has anything to do
with injuries. Like you might say, cumulively, they were a
little more tired because of the energy they've had to
expend themselves. But we have seen better effort from this
team in every game this series. All three games, the
first three games of the series, the Calves won the
(03:16):
battle on the boards, they won the points in the paints,
second chance opportunities. You know, there was physicality. I think
India had the physicality advantage on the perimeter.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So far in this series. But the Calves were.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Really killing them on the inside, and that flipped in
Game four. I thought, you know, defensive intensity dropped off
to where we saw basically in that first half of
Game one, where the Calves just didn't look ready for
the series. I thought the rotations defensively were poor. There
(03:49):
really wasn't a whole lot that you could hang your
hat on in this game. And you know, it's one
of those spots where you know it, as I said,
it's a failure from the top down, and you know,
because of the situation that they've put themselves in losing
those first two games at home all of a sudden,
what typically in the playoff series would be a successful
(04:09):
weekend where you go and you get one of those
road games as the team with home court advantage. Typically
that is a successful three to four kind of swing
through a playoff series. But because of the you know,
the hole that they put themselves in to start this series,
you did not have the margin for error, You did
not have the room to have a result like this
(04:29):
on you know the scorecard.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's why you don't lose games
one and two at home, yep, in a series. I mean,
they have the rare advantage of you know, potentially being
able to play to the last three at home. You know, normally,
when you're down three to one, it's you know, it's
like twenty sixteen where you had to you know, win
a Game seven on the road. But honestly, bro, I'm
(04:54):
not even thinking about game six is or Game seven's
right now.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's all about five. I just I just want to.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
See them show up with some some some pride, some
attention to detail, and like I you know, I've been
thinking a lot about this series and like, well, obviously,
you know, if it, if it goes the way it's trending,
we'll do a more proper eulogy. But I am disappointed
right now about how the team's lack of I guess,
(05:26):
readiness for for the things that are getting thrown at them. Uh,
you know, I I just don't. I don't feel like
they've been a terribly you know, mentally resilient team in
this series, which I think I'm pretty disappointed by, just
because I thought that was what I was so impressed
with all year. You know, they didn't seem ready for that,
(05:50):
for that Pacers offense to start, and weren't able to
really ever get their feet under them in Game one.
In this game, it's like it almost looked like the
players were like, wait, they're going to adjust to Ari zone.
So I just feel like they haven't been sharp and
all the while, they've probably on balance outplayed Indie over
(06:13):
the course of the series, you know, minute by minute.
But it's just is kind of immaterial when you when
you get to the results, and I think a lot
of it comes to lack of attention to detail and
lack of focus and lack of sharpness. You know. I
was so impressed in Game three with how they were
flashing to beat the press, with how they were when
(06:36):
they got across half court. They were pushing and turning
the corner and getting runs to the to the to
get to the rim. You know, they just had none
of that in this game. I mean, they would they
would get across that they'd spend seven point nine nine
seconds to get across half court, and then they'd stop
(06:57):
and survey, and it's like, well, that's that's exactly what
the press wants you to do. Yeah, you know, And
I think that's where I'm I was really disappointed by
that game. Was the degree to which the Calves seeded
every part of the game to what Indy wanted to
do and what INDI wanted to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I feel like they haven't stuck with their identity
so far in this series. And you know, obviously, when
you have turmoil in terms of who's available and to
what degree that they are available, you know they're in
the lineup, but they're not there physically. That's going to
have an impact. But I don't think it justifies what
we saw in Game four, because we saw them, with
(07:37):
the guys that were available for Game four, come out
with a much better effort. Right, Like you said, the
aggressiveness in beating that press, how they would come to
the ball, how you know they would fight through it
and make sure that they were maintaining tempo, not allowing
Indy to dictate the terms of engagement with their perimeter pressure.
(07:58):
We saw that in Game three, just like in Game one.
I'm actually going to disagree with you a little bit.
I thought they did find their footing in Game one.
They ultimately took the lead, they just weren't able to
kind of hang on to that, and obviously Mobile and
Hunter are getting hurt in the fourth had something to
do with that, but I think what we saw in
game one was more understandable. Right, You're coming off a
(08:19):
laugher of a series where you didn't have to play
with intensity and you get punched in the mouth by
a team that did play, you know, in some tough
games in the first round. That disappointing, but it's understandable.
What we saw in game four is almost reverting back
to where they were to start the series. And when
you have the experience, when you've had the reps of
(08:40):
playing against this team, you know what their strengths and
weaknesses are at that point. That's what made it so
disappointing to me. And you know, I just I don't
like the fact that, you know, we're in a situation
where what they needed to do are things that we've seen.
It just seemed like it got lost in the shuffle
and for gone, and just like Game one was understandable,
(09:05):
you know, frustrating, but understandable. This type of result happens
in playoff series. You had, you know, game six of
the first round in twenty eighteen with lebron you lost
by thirty five to Indiana. Game two of the twenty
sixteen finals in Golden State, you lost by thirty three.
Every time one of these, you know, thirty to forty
(09:25):
point losses, even though you.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Know time got it down to twenty.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Anytime you have one of these games, it always feels like, oh,
we don't belong in the series. It always feels bad.
But again, if you win game two, it feels like
this is a successful weekend.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That's you know.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
We can sit here and we say flush that down.
We break down the game the same way we're doing now,
saying you know what happened, Why did they let go
of the rope? Why was there not the attention to
detail and the focus. But because of the situation that
they've put themselves in, you know, this stings so much more.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah, And I do think there is something. I
think part of the reason I was so apoplectic after
Game two. Privately, I pulled I pulled it together for
the pod, even though it was a sad boy.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Right, I was so.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I was so distraught because I know what a kitchen
sink game looks like, and the Calves had to play
two in a row just to get the gate the
series to one two because they blew one of their
kitchen sink games.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And I think that hanged and and I do think there.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Was something to that where you know, everyone can say
from a distance and like, I don't know if this
sounds excusey or not, people will, I'm sure tell me.
But we can say play with desperation. You know, they
said in the post game after Game three, we didn't
do anything.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
We got to play with desperation.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I do think the brained is led up a little bit,
you know. I mean that's why no one's ever come
back from three to zero, you know, and three to
one is so rare because it's hard to play desperate
night after night after night after night. You know, eventually
your brain chemistry does want to revert to something calmer,
you know, it wants to find it's you know, if
(11:20):
desperation is one side of the the you know, the
mental spectrum, your brain wants equilibrium.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
It wants to to chill, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
And you could tell that that was what the Cavs
were doing, you know, they were, uh you know some
of these pocket passes to Jared Allen where Nimhart is
just able to dig down against the drop and blow
up the pass, like that's just Donovan running a set.
Like it's like it's January, you know, not the level
of force that you need them to play with. I'm
(11:52):
not trying to go with Donovan. He's been amazing in
the series. It's just a collective example of like what
desperation play looks like and what it doesn't. And like
I've seen a lot of people griping about the physicality
from Indy. I'm just not going to be one of them,
you know. I mean there's stuff that annoys me. You know,
I'm glad Mathern got tossed.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
It is the whole thing in a game.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, which again was exactly what I said after Game three.
If you're going to be the guy that does dirty plays,
you can't also be the guy that flops.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, sorry, but sorry, but uh you know, so, like
there's stuff I don't like about it, but like I'm sorry, guys,
we want a championship. Pull and grab and bump and
bruising yep, people who preferred to play a finesse game
and run around off off pin downs and stuff, and
like you can't Cav's got twenty first half free throw attempts.
(12:46):
You know, they the refs were calling stuff and I
don't think that is a I think that's the thing
you got to be able to overcome as an offense
if you ever want to be worth anything in this league. Yeah,
and we have seen the Calves continue to have that problem,
you know, when they're really really focused, when they're really
really locked in, when they're really really optimized, everyone's healthy,
(13:10):
everyone's doing a good we've seen them be able to
beat up that kind of pressure turn it against them.
You know, they did that to Miami in the first
round and you know Game of the Year against Okay. See,
they did that to Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
See. They've done it by times in this series. Yes,
you know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
They Brandon in the chat was like, where's the one
eighteen offensive rating? I was promised. I was like, it's
like one seventeen or it was for through three games,
you know. But it's the consistency. It's doing it under duress,
it's doing it every play, and they just haven't been
able to muster that kind of effort against that kind
of pressure.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And the interesting thing, you know, people are going to
overreact to some aspects of this game, right Like I
would say, through seven games of the playoffs, the Calves
largely own the interior. They've owned the glass. They own
the point paints in the paint points in the pain.
Jared Allen has been fantastic. He was terrible in Game four,
Like and in a lot of ways, I sometimes feel
(14:06):
like Jared's the Canarian the coal mine in terms of
the Caves overall health. Right Like when Game four against Miami,
when Jared gets that steal and the breakaway to start
the game, we say, Okay, well, yeah, they're they're locked.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
In that this is going to be easy win for
the Calves.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
When he struggles like this, it's almost like he gets
overwhelmed with the situation where there's so many breakdowns defensively
and you know, just doesn't have the same impact. I'm
not going to kill Jared for it because he has
been exactly what we've needed throughout the playoffs prior to
this game. I'm not going to kill Donovan for having
a bad first half because you know, as you said,
(14:42):
it was consecutive kitchen sink games. I was thrilled with
their effort in game two and how hard they played shorthanded.
I was thrilled with what they did in game three.
I'm not going to forget that because Game four was
so frustrating but you know, they weren't able to sustain.
And I think there's something to what you're saying about,
(15:03):
you know, trying to maintain that desperation in all of
these matchups. But I do want to get your thoughts
on the pressure on the perimeter, because we've seen them
beat it at times in this series. We've seen them
struggle with it at times in the regular season. We've
seen them excel against it at times in the regular season.
(15:24):
What do you think it is that makes it so
difficult for them to sustain? Is it that they have
to play with such an elevated level of focus and effort,
and you know, just to make up for the fact
that they do have a smaller backcourt. What do you
think it is that makes it so that something that
we know that they're capable of doing versus these teams,
(15:46):
they aren't able to reliably do it at the level
we want to see.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I guess you just got to look to you know,
what the difference was when they have done it. Typically
it's involved a Darius Garland who can Yeah, he's just
fallen over running right now. You know, his feet just
cannot paying through a calf issue. Uh, you know, Hunter
can't grip the ball with his right hand. He's shot
(16:12):
put in his jumpers right now, you know so?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
And then Ty who was kind of your change of pace,
Like he was kind of your i'll hit you back option.
If you're gonna ride me, you're at least going to
get an elbow to your gut on the on the way.
Uh as I turned the corner like Ty can't play
right now?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So you know you have all these different all the
all the you know, usual suspects you'd look to for
press breaking aren't there right now or in pressure breaking.
And then also frankly, I got to go at.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
The team a little bit. So those are those are
my nice, nice excuses. Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Evan Mobley's usage rate has dropped five percent in the postseason.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
What a I mean?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
This was your stick the entire offseason, which is, if
you're going to have a small backcourt, you need to
have front court initiation to be a release valve. And
they're not doing it. I'm sorry. You can be as
nice like nim Hard Anie Smith can be as good
as they want on defense, They're getting away with Thomas
(17:23):
Bryant minutes comfortably. I know, really, where's the I'm where's
the team that bullied kalel Ware off the floor.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I'm really glad you brought this up because it's exactly
what I have in mind.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Right, Like I.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Think, on the one hand of the coin, that is
something that they need to focus on. Right, Like I
think from an off season preparation standpoint, Donovan, I'm going
to cut some slack because you know, he's been playing
through the angle. He's been playing through the cap basically
that whole cot.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And he's been a killer. He's the only one who's
turned in the corner right now, right, I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Going to cut him some slack there. I understand what's
going on with with Darius. I actually think he's on
a pretty decent job of turning the corner considering he's
playing with one tire. But at the same time, I
think that there is some physical maturity that he needs
to continue to do. I think the same thing goes
for Evan Mobley. I think this team needs to get
a little more physical on the perimeter. But what I
(18:16):
will say is you understand that you have to maintain
a level of focus and aggressiveness on the perimeter to
counteract what teams are able to do from a length standpoint.
One of the ways you can do that is involving
your bigs. And I know we've disagreed at times in
the past when it comes to Jared being like, oh,
you know, he's kind of a function of the overall offense,
(18:38):
You're not really running place for him. You can run
place for Jared. He is, you know, someone that's going
to make smart decisions in the short role. I think
we saw in the Miami series, as you said, when
we were attacking kellel Ware, that is something that you
can go to. And I think that has to be
on both the guards and the coaching staff of making
sure Evan Mobley and Jared Allen are being used, that
(19:00):
they are being counted on at times to break the pressure.
Even when you're talking about the full court press. What
is the intention of having Evan Mobley bring the ball
up so many times throughout the regular season if that
isn't a wrinkle that you are throwing to break the press. Yeah,
Nie Smith and Emhard are going to be pressuring the
guards as they're bringing it up and trying to make
(19:21):
you use as much of the shot clock as possible.
Are they going to do the same thing. If it's
Evan Mobley available as an outlets, Pascal Siakam'm going to
start covering him, you know, ninety four feet.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I don't believe so, or at the very I guess
if he wants to try, at the.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Very least, I would like to find out, right, Like,
I think that that is something that you can go
to in these spots. And as much as as much
as I think the overall situation we're in in this
series has to do with the injuries, right, Like, I
don't think you lose those games at home if you're
fully healthy, right, I think even if DeAndre Hunter and
Evan Mobley don't get hurt in the fourth quarter of
(19:57):
Game one, I think you win that game. If lane
violations get called properly, you win game two. That's all
very frustrating, but the margins shouldn't have been that thin.
And I think, you know, as much as the overall
situation I believe has a lot to do with the injuries,
what happened in Game four didn't and because it was
things that it had looked like they had solved at
(20:20):
already in this series that they kind of backtracked and
backslid in like that's that to me is what makes
it very frustrating. And I think that's the type of
stuff that's going to lead to some macro takeaways and
reflection when you look back at whenever this playoff run ends.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day,
they're just not playing well enough to make me feel
like you can just point to the injuries and like,
I think the injuries trim their margin for error for sure,
but like this is a team at the beginning of
(20:59):
the series. Uh, we kind of said to each other,
I don't know if we said on the pod, We're like,
if Darius doesn't play, it's going to be hard, but
we we can still win this series. We should, you know,
maybe I don't know if we said should, but I
think we both kind of felt like they they had
a really good shot to but like not playing like this,
(21:20):
you know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Games showed how much of a margin for there was,
Like in these a very very good team. The Cavs
didn't shoot thirty percent in any of the first three
games of the series, and they had chances to win
every single one of these games, even you know, without
Evan Mobley missing two of your top three players missing,
you know, DeAndre Hunter, who's been essential, but Donovan Mitchell
playing through you know, all the lower body ailments he has,
(21:44):
it has shown their margin for error, like they should
be a team that can you know, survive some you know,
postseason injuries and be able to be conservative with the management,
which you know, I think we were hoping that they
would be conservative when it came to Darius, but I
think it's very clear that no, it's like.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
No, it's just one of those things that didn't get better.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, it's one of those things that it took a
lot to get it to the point where he could
even you know, tough through it. And I'm not going
to question his toughness that the guy that played twenty
two minutes in the second half of a game with
a broken jaw on a mouthful of blood. He was
playing down you know, the stretch of the season through
this toe almen, Like, I'm not going to be questioning that,
(22:28):
but you know, I do think even limited right, Like,
I think one of the things that we've loved about
Darius is getting Evan mobilely involved. And we want to
see if you're playing through injuries and you're you're not
at one hundred percent. Can you find the counters? Can
you do what Donovan's done, which is, hey, you know,
I'm unfortunately every time that we've been in the playoffs
(22:51):
with Donovan pretty much he's dealing with some sort of
lower body ailmens and the three pointer hasn't really been there.
But he's found ways to be so effective. He's managed to,
you know, get that rim press. Sure, and you know,
I think that's part of the growth and maturity process.
But from a Darius standpoint, the two man game with
him and Evan Mobley like that got them to you know,
a forty eight win pace before Donovan even got here
(23:14):
when the two of them were playing right like, that
is something that you can rely on.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
That is one of the most.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Effective two man combinations of the last few years. Not
utilizing Evan Mobley enough is really disappointing because at the
very least I'd like to go down with the ship
trying that right, Like, we understand how important that is
for the future of this team and the future.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Of this group.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
At least get those reps in right, Let's try to
salvage this situation by doing that well.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
And there's just like a little bit of like and
I think one of the most disappointing things about the
last game was like they completely just stop trying to
run anything for anybody, right, I mean, it was just like,
barely get the ball over half court, run a half
a pick and roll, and try a Midtie. It's like,
(24:04):
you know, like, hell, I don't care. Try a couple
Evan post ups. He's gotten way better on the posts.
He can get a switch yep and and try to
mash that and get to on the ball. You know,
like a lot is correctly noted about this team's three
point shooting falling off a cliff in this series. But
I'm not gonna play the variance game here because not
(24:27):
only I mean I haven't checked the wide open numbers.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I can look that for these.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Since game one, but I would argue that even their
wide open ones aren't easy right now because they're taking
so much effort to get to them. You know, Donovan
missed one where he had to do like a very
violent step back in game four. It's like, none of
these threes are in balance and rhythm. No one gets
(24:55):
catch and shoot threes except Max, and it's just like
your process is just not leading to a shod diet
that's worth putting your name one.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They're down to fifteen wide open threes per game. They're
shooting twenty seven percent on those. But again, like that
is such a far drop off from what we saw
in the regular season when it came to this team, right, Like,
they were a team that was in the regular season
they got twenty five wide open threes per game. When
they would play Indiana for the season, they got over twenty, right,
(25:31):
And sure that twenty seven percent is going to be
part of this.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Milwaukee get against them, That's what I want to know,
because I felt like they were getting an open three
whenever they wanted. And I know Yannis is great and
we don't have a Yanis, but we have ways to
make defenses break. And that's like, again, turn the freaking
corner man.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Like Milwaukee got seventeen.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Like that Milwaukee team should not be generating more open
threes than us. And I'll bet they hit more of
them too, because they were open in rhythm, comfort types
of shots.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
I mean I guess some of this, maybe I am
playing the result a little and maybe it's hard like
we maybe they should be shooting better but I'm also
watching the game, and I'm watching Donovan uh you know empty.
You know, like if you have like a big stamina
meter for the for the game that reflects how tired
you are, but you have like a possession by possession
(26:34):
exertion meter. I feel like every Cavs three, they're they've
expended their.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Per play exertion.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Yeah, so even if they get open, they're freaking having
a you know, you know, get get get set up,
really really think about getting a clean shot off.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
It's just not easy.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And then you watch Indie and you know, it's just
a parade of mostly rhythm threes. So I don't know
what side I'm more disappointed in the defensive side or
the offensive side.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right now? I lean offense.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I do too, because I've I've always felt that's the problem,
and I think it is fueling Indiana's perimeter game and
transition game. You know how many miles turner trailer threes
has he gotten in this series, just because Indi is
just constantly in motion. But it just goes back to
(27:30):
the detail thing. Sorry, I'm just getting a little ranty,
but like they you know, the floor balance isn't even good,
you know, like I just I'm not seeing them do
enough right for a team that I thought was ready
to go compete for a championship, And like it's not over.
They can absolutely clean this stuff up. They might not
(27:50):
win the series even if they clean it up, by
the way, because the margins are so thin now, But
like that's what I.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Want to see, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I felt like I really watched them give a give
a god's honest effort in Boston, completely outgunned by the end.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I want to see the same thing. Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it's clear that they're not putting themselves in
their position to do the best work, which is something
that zoom Ai Companion would never allow to happen for us,
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happy with Zuomi Companion. I think, you know, the effort
(28:31):
and focus is the biggest thing for me because this
lost things a little bit less, just because I can
see the situation that we're in physically right, Like even
if they came back to win the series. We talked
about this on the last podcast, Like, I think the
ceiling for what this playoff run can be is capped
by the health situation.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
That we're in.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And now we've can add Donovan Mitchell to that list.
He's listed is questionable for the next game. For Game five,
I will likely be a game time decision. You know,
look like a reaggravation of the ankle seems to be
the reporting I did see. Brian Windhors was mentioning, Hey,
you know he has been playing through a calf. All
(29:11):
of that's connected as you know, someone that is currently
going through a setback. When it comes to my rehabit,
it just leads to me being incredibly you know, paranoid
when it comes to anything calf related. But I definitely
trust the Cavs trainers and medical staff when it comes
to that. But we'll see what his availability is. But
I would say, you know, even if Donovan is enabled
(29:32):
to play, I think this team is able to put
up a good enough effort to win Game five. I
think that they can accept.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
At home man and they won sixty four.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Games, and you know, I think once again, the effort
and how it occurs is the biggest thing. I could
have been okay with a Game four loss. I could
have been okay with that exact type of scenario if
the rest of the series had felt differently, right, Like,
we understand that there's going to be lowel losses in
(30:01):
either direction of the playoffs, and sometimes you know, you
you lose the battle and you come back to.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Win the war.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Both of those instances that I mentioned before, where you know,
with Lebron led teams, the Calves lost by thirty to
forty points in the playoffs, they came back and they
won the series, whether it was the twenty sixteen finals
or Game seven against Indiana in the first round. So
it doesn't have to be a death sentence. But for me,
what I really want to see is Caves to feel
(30:28):
like the Calves, and if they go down in game five, six, seven,
whatever the case may be, with an honest effort where
it feels like the Calves, I'm going to feel better
about that.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
And I yeah, there's no shame in losing to an
indie team that after like a ten and sixteen start
with bananas.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
The rest of the way.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
That is, you know that I was you know had
appropriate fear of there's no shame in losing to them
when with the injury text you have around him, I
think that you just crossed that threshold when you're not
playing your style of basketball, when you're you know, even
(31:10):
like stuff like Tai Jerome just having a nightmare series
like that sucks, right, Like I'm not but I'm not
sitting here mad at Ti Jerome. I'm bummed. I'm sure
Ty is bummed that he's having the series he's having,
especially after the first round he had against Miami, where
you think, okay, everything you thought, yeah, and uh, you know,
(31:35):
so I'm sure he's bummed. But I there's a reason
we're not on here decrying that Tai Jerome is letting
the team down, because like one, that's not interesting analysis
and you know, only serves to make yourself feel good
holding someone accountable or whatever, and I hate that, which we're.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Going to get a lot of that this SAW season.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, But like I the reason we're
not doing is because like that's just like a guy
having a bad performance, and that is understandable. It's not
personally acceptable, I'm sure to him, but like it's not
indicative of a team losing who they are, you know,
and like so much of what's gone on in the series.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
In these pockets of pain.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Game four n understanding, which was just a you know,
the whole factory of pain. But like these pockets of
pain where they're losing these games, is that it's them
losing themselves, not playing the way that we know they're
capable of playing. And it's like, well, guys, like I
guess you know there's a bit of reaping sewing going on.
(32:44):
You know, you don't play your style against a good
team who never ever doesn't play their style, you know,
Like I do think if they lose this series, there
should be some soul searching, not just about what this
roster is capable of, but like they should look across
the aisle and be like, why do they never lose
(33:08):
who they are? Given that Game three, where the Calves
had a great game plan, controlled the game the whole
way through. In the fourth quarter, there were the Pacers
doing there.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Felt several pushes from them, right like the Calves were
able to answer back. But even though they had those stretches,
they did get back to you know, who they are
and what their style of play is.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I think that's going to be one of the macro
takeaways because even though you know you.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Can ascribe a lot of what's.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Happened to the injuries, that losing you know, your identity
and your style of play is something that honestly, if
the Cavs were fully healthy, it probably could overcome in
this individual series. They probably would overcome in this individual series,
but it would show up later in the playoffs. Yeah,
it's going to show up, you know, against the Boston
(33:56):
or against an OKC. And if we want to hold
ourselves to that championship standard, in if that's what this
team is going to continue to build towards, that is
usable data. That is a macro takeaway that you can
take from the series. And I don't I you know,
the people that doubted the Cavs coming into this, I
don't expect them, Like it would be absolute lunacy for
(34:18):
me to expect them to look at this result and say, Okay,
well I'm going to approach this with nuance. No, they're
going to go to their priors, right Like, when you
have played as well as the Calves have played this
season and you earn those expectations for yourself. You know,
people are going to have opinions. If you come up
short of expectations, you are going to receive backlash. I
(34:41):
think that this team is more than capable of handling that.
But I do think, you know, you have to find
those nuggets of truth or is you like to say,
what lessons do you want to learn from this situation?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And I think that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Type of identity aspect of this is something that requires analysis.
It requires them to reflect upon it, and you know,
applied properly, can be something that ends up being a
difference maker. When you talk about this team's evolution to
try to become, you know, a championship team.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It most importantly has nothing to do with injuries, correct,
because injuries are always going to muddy your analysis. They're complicated.
You know, we get yelled at a lot. We're getting
yelled at in the YouTube chat right this very second
for talking too much about injuries, which I think is
funny because I think we're barely talking about them.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I think we're talking about why they don't matter. And
for the most part, yea.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
If anything, Yeah, But like at the end of the day,
I see when when things do get muddy in any
scientific experiment, which every basketball season for your team is
an experiment. You look at the controls, you look at
the the things that aren't going to be variable, and
you know there's a reason, even without Halliburton in the
(35:56):
Conference finals last year, that Indy was making Austin sweaty.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
And I just think they.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Need to whatever road it is, they have to find it,
whether it's going to be this series, whether it's the
off season, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
In a different era of the team.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Like your ultimate goal, your ultimate goal should be an
identity and a style of play that is magic you
can impose correct and that you can impose.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
You know, I've one of my favorite models for team
building that I've brought up a lot is the Grit
and grind and Grizzlies, who never won a title, who
had plenty of series they lost, you know, every year
they always lost someone or to someone. But you knew
that going into this series. And you can even look
(36:50):
at the magic right now in that way, like the
magic got.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You know what a magic series feel like?
Speaker 4 (36:57):
They got comfortably dispatched in five games and Boston hated
every second of it. Yep, Like that's what I want,
That's what I want my.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Team to be. That's what I want my team to do.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And I'm not saying go be the Orlando Magic, be
the Calves, but like, you've got to be the Calves
all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And I think a big part of that, you know,
goes back to what we were saying before about involving
the bigs and particularly involving Evan Mobley. We know how
important he has to be to the Cavs success, and
I feel like when we've been in some of these
games where you know they've kind of lost the sense
of who they are, it's not because Mobley's out there struggling.
(37:34):
And I think there were times in Game four where
it seemed like, Okay, they know what he's trying to do,
and they were taking away some of his counters. They
did a good job of him individually, but never really
feels like you don't get the five of twenty Evan
Mobley game right where it's all right, we're trying to
go down with the ship and he's just not able
to deliver.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
What's the most field goal attempts Evan's taken in the
playoffs so.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Far fourteen thirteen.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Oh wow, I'm good at guessing getting back to you know,
your good and grind example. I think an even more
relatable example for Kavs fans the twenty sixteen Cleveland Cavaliers.
You looked at that twenty fifteen Finals, and people said,
look how they were able to muddy things up against
the Warriors.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
They need to play.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You know, you would get the need to bench Kyrie,
You need a bench, Kevin Love.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You need to muddy up the series.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
You got to slow things down, you got to make
the Warriors uncomfortable, you got to beat them up. And
the Cavs said, that's not our identity. Yes, that worked
in twenty fifteen out of desperation. That was how we
were able to make a series of it, but that's
not how we play. And the top four highest paced
games of the twenty sixteen Finals were all Cavs wins
because they played their style. They weren't afraid that their
(38:45):
style played into what the Warriors typically like to do.
They played to their identity, and I think finding that
identity is one of the most important things for the Cavs.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And you know, I.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Think we've talked a lot about the players and where
they came up shortly in this game, but I do
think beyond them, you know, understanding what needs to change
for Game five, executing the way that we've seen in
previous games of this series. I do think some of
this it has to fall in the coaching staff as well.
(39:17):
I thought Indiana came out, they had a plan of
attack for the three to two zone, and the cast
stayed in you know, they stayed in looks that made
Indiana feel comfortable offensively. Far too frequently in this game.
They were able to, you know, get those deep corner
shots and attack the zone from there. You know, I
think three two zone and zone in general is something
(39:39):
that you can throw at Indy. I think it has
to be for a possession or two, right Like, Okay,
we're playing man to man boom for one or two
possessions in a row. We're throwing zone, then we're going
back to man. We're going to sawt switch here, We're
going to fight through screens here, We're going to throw
a variety of looks, which honestly we saw against you know,
the Miami Heat and Tyler Hero they were throwing a
variety of defensive looks at them. They stayed in the
(40:02):
same looks far too consistently. And I think that that
allowed Indy to just play their game, as he said, uninhibited.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Yeah, the the you know, and it's not that just necessarily.
I'm like, you're not allowed to play three two zone anymore,
you know. Nate Duncan made some really good observations in
the game on Twitter about how, you know, Evan needs
to just when he gets screened at the top, he
just needs to stick with the roller because that role
is just too unprotected, especially if Jarrett isn't out there.
(40:36):
So like, you know, but when you do that, then
you open up the pull up game. You know, now
you're just getting screened uninhibited because the help can't get
up there in time. So it's like it just felt
like not only did they stick in the three two zone,
they stuck with the same three two zone principles for
too long, you're right, and it's like they have a
(40:57):
solve for the way you're guarding this. You have to
tweak it or show something different every now and again,
even within the three to two yep, And they just
kind of hung and said, well, let's see. I mean,
Indy has so many wide open layups duck ins with
where a big rolls or cuts to the rim baseline
(41:17):
and catches it with ridiculously deep position.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
And gets the easiest and ones of their career.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Like, I mean, the there was just such a systematic
opening and then the execution was poor too, you know,
and like I mean, you can maybe get away with
one with the Calves defensive talent, you can't get away
with both.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, Now that was that sucked.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, And the thing is right, like Indy's going to
make you uncomfortable. Indy doesn't have the level of defensive
personnel that the Calves have, right, Like, even if you
look at playoff defensive rating, the Calves do have a
better defensive rating for the playoffs. But what Indied does
is they rush your decision making. You have to be
sharp at all times. And I think one of the
(42:06):
things that the Cavs have had defensively, like the form
the most part, the defense is held up regular season playoffs,
they've been a good defense. This is the first series
where I feel like they've lost control defensively at times.
But I think what we've seen from the Caves is
they do a good job contesting.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
The rim.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Protection has always been fantastic. They're able to stay in
their shell defense and you know, put forward a you know,
a defense that's good enough to go out there and win,
and often a you know, a top five, top ten defense.
But they don't make teams uncomfortable often enough. They will
stay kind of in those base looks and they don't
(42:44):
rush your decision making. They don't make things more difficult
for you in those ways. They trust what they are
able to do, right, like Max Strus getting in the
jersey of Tyre's Halliburn fighting through screens.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
You love to see that.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, what they're able to do
on the back line defensively like that is all really
important stuff. But they aren't able to create havoc when
it comes to their defense unless it's you know, Evan
mobilely grabbing a block out of the air and starting
a fast break as a result of it.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
It's kind of the Isaaco Couro problem in Mac in
whatever the opposite, you know, sound positional defense that doesn't
do enough to bother the shot before the shot, right,
And I think you know that that's another one of
those things I'm going to have you know, my eye
on when it comes to the offseason, right, because there's
going to be limitations in terms of what this team
(43:35):
can do as a second apron team.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
You're it's tinkering on the margins, but understanding that it's okay,
how can we make enough of a change to our
style of play without dramatic shakeups? Like how how how
can we do things both internally and on the margins,
you know, from a roster construction standpoint, to modify our
(44:00):
style of play so that we are able to be
a little bit more bothersome, because when you had that
level of backline defense in theory, you should be able
to do a little bit more gambling. You should be
able to blitz a little bit, blitz and recover and
make teams uncomfortable defensively. And that's that's one of those
things that I'm going to have an eye on.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Yeah, for sure, me too. Game five, do you make
any rotational changes?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
I don't think you can.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Like, you know, you can say, all right, well, should
Craig port a junior play instead of tie? No, I like,
There's been times where I've liked to I'd like to
see Craig. I like the minutes that he had. I
thought that was one of the issues with Game two
is I would have liked to have seen him get
a second shift. I like his athleticism out there. You
(44:47):
can say Javonte Green for energy and things like that,
but I think you just kind of have to go
with the guys that you have. Obviously, some of that
is going to be dependent on the availability of Donovan Mitchell.
If he's not able to play, your inevitably going to
have some changes to the rotation. I if I was
to suggest a wild card in that kind of instance
(45:09):
where you have to have a major kind of you know,
you have to replace a major contributor in Donald Mitchell,
I wouldn't hate throwing out Jalen Tyson just for a physicality,
second chance opportunities, and because this might have to be
one of those guys that you rely on the future to,
you know, change how you feel on the perimeter.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
You know, just from a physicality standpoint.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I might be playing Jalen over Dean or Isaac and
just give it a shot. That's yeah, That's That's what
I'm saying, is you know if yeah, well you said
if Donovan doesn't play, I'm saying maybe even if he does, okay,
because at this point Isaac's just not in the right
let me. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm suggesting. Not
a long shift. I'm talking eight to ten minutes total,
(45:57):
but that is paired with you know, it's a two
parter because I think I'm playing Evan and Jarrett forty
minutes plus, yeah, and saying, uh, you know, we're going
down with If I'm going down with two bigs, I'm
going down playing guys who can you know, change the
(46:18):
physicality game in our favor a little bit, get us
extra possessions in the former rebounds, a little bit of
extra shooting from the wing in Jalen, especially since I
don't trust DeAndre to be able to shoot yeah right now.
But like, you know, these are a little bit of
you know, some of the playing a rookie who wasn't
(46:40):
in your rotation all year in a deciding playoff game
like is indicative of what the state of the back
end of the Cavs rotation right now.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah. Where the real answer is.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Ty has to play well, Darius has to play well,
Jared has to play well, Evan has to play well.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
And if they do that, if they ever.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Yeah yeah, uh and you know, but I if they can't,
then I need I need someone who's gonna try stuff
and maybe mess up.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah, and uh and uh, and I'll go with Jalen
doing that. I I I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I think I think, you know, the Jalen Tyson conversation
is one that we're going to be having this offseason
because it will.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
Be I I don't even know if it's a conversation.
I just think he's gonna he needs to get the
he needs to get there.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
You need him to get no.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
But I mean, you know, opening up that opportunity is
going to take, you know, some changes because they have
so much depth, right, So I think that he is
someone that brings some of that physicality, some of that
edge on the perimeter. And I like, I honestly, I
love what Max has been for for the Cavs. I
(47:54):
think he you know, when you look back at that
sign trade, this is basically the best case scenario. I
think he is better as he's been a member of
the Calves. I think he has been probably our most
consistent player in the playoffs. You know now that that
Jared has had that kind of one dud game, I
would have given Jared the nod prior to that, but
I think Max is running with that ground right now.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
I like what DeAndre has given the Calves.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I'm cunning him a ton of slack because he's so
he can can't grip the ball right now, Like I'm
gonna cut him slack in that scenario. But I really
like how he is fit with this team. It's about
going beyond those six right and reflecting on Okay, well things.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
Went wrong for ty Jerome. What does that mean? Right?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
You know, Isaac Okor, I think we're going to have
some conversations about him. Dean Wade, We're not going to
have some conversations about him. But when you have promising,
you know, young players like a Jalen Tyson and to
some extent, Craig Porter Jr. It forces you to have
these conversations from a team building standpoint. So we'll see
what the availability is for Game five. You know, when
(49:01):
it comes to Donovan Mitchell, as much as I want
to go out and win this game and extend the series,
you got to do what's best for the long term
health there.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So we'll see what his availability is. I'm sure he
will be fighting to give it a go.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
But I'm not disappointed with his effort at all in
these playoffs I think he is, you know, laid it
all on the line, and that's exactly what I hope
from the overall team.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
In game five, absolutely, man, come on, let's extend this thing. Sure,
I don't want to see these dudes go out at home.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
No, so totally agree.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Let's let's defend a home court and see, you know
how much further we can extend it from there, one
game at a time. Big thanks to everyone that tuned
in live on YouTube. Carter, thank you for you know,
struggling through that voice. I appreciate it. I can't believe
this has happened again for you in the playoffs, but
I love you, buddy, I love you. Get all our
listeners as well. We appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Make sure you like and subscribe. Click that notification bells
know when we're going live. If you're listening to a
podcast and you want to support us, leave us a rating,
late review, subscribe unsubscribed to subscribe and help cook those
books if you want to be or Chase Down's exclusive
discord chat Sidy screen show the view to Chase Doownpott
gmail dot com. However you chuse the supports, we really
do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe
out there. Until next time, Don Gast
This brow, this crowd of fowl.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves
Media family. I'm your host, Justin Rohan. The Chase Doown
is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves.
Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports
and TV, including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's
no cost and no commitment. Try for free at foobotv
dot com Slash Calves. The Cleveland Cavaliers were unable to
capitalize on their success in Game three, suffering a blowout
(00:38):
loss to the Indiana Pacers.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Joining me today is my co host that also just
can't seem to get right during this playoff journey, Carter Rodriguez. Carter,
how are you feeling, buddy?
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Not good?
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Uh, voices in rough shape. Turns out, when your son
coughs into your mouth for a straight week, chances of
you getting sick are pretty good.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
That sounds about right. I really wanted to blame you
for getting me sick, but ultimately I wasn't. I didn't
get sick from you because I got COVID for the
first time, you know, two weeks ago or a week ago.
Whenever that was and you didn't have it, so I
couldn't blame you. That was a little disappointing. Speaking of disappointing,
I would say that Game four for the Cleveland Cavaliers
(01:25):
is probably the most disappointing result that we've had from
this group when it comes to playoff performances. We've heard
a lot after their Game three win about how they
have to treat every single game like a Game seven,
that there was going to be an appropriate amount of intensity,
and I don't think, you know, listening to Kenny Atkinson,
listening to the player's post game, I don't think anybody
(01:48):
was happy with their effort.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
I think when you have a game that goes.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That poorly, it's a failure top to bottom, right from
the first man to the fifteenth man to the coaching staff.
They did not come out with the necessary intensity and
have now put themselves in a serious hole when it
comes to the series.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yeah, it's.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
You know, it's just a litany of problems. I'm not
ready to say most disappointing game of the era of
the era. Actually, okay, I think I was. I was
so mad Game five against the Knicks when it just
came out. It was just the same game again.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, and you know, I think what we're going to
see is does history repeat themselves?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
They are they able to come out in game five
regardless of who's available and put forward a better effort,
because to me, the result wasn't you know the disappointing thing.
I know, when we were talking before the game, I
didn't have a great feeling about Game four. I I
just kind of had a feeling that Indiana was going
to come out with some counterpunches. I was worried about,
you know, how guys were going to respond physically to
(02:55):
attempting to play through game three. But what we got
in game four I don't think has anything to do
with injuries. Like you might say, cumulively, they were a
little more tired because of the energy they've had to
expend themselves. But we have seen better effort from this
team in every game this series. All three games, the
first three games of the series, the Calves won the
(03:16):
battle on the boards, they won the points in the paints,
second chance opportunities. You know, there was physicality. I think
India had the physicality advantage on the perimeter.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So far in this series. But the Calves were.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Really killing them on the inside, and that flipped in
Game four. I thought, you know, defensive intensity dropped off
to where we saw basically in that first half of
Game one, where the Calves just didn't look ready for
the series. I thought the rotations defensively were poor. There
(03:49):
really wasn't a whole lot that you could hang your
hat on in this game. And you know, it's one
of those spots where you know it, as I said,
it's a failure from the top down, and you know,
because of the situation that they've put themselves in losing
those first two games at home all of a sudden,
what typically in the playoff series would be a successful
(04:09):
weekend where you go and you get one of those
road games as the team with home court advantage. Typically
that is a successful three to four kind of swing
through a playoff series. But because of the you know,
the hole that they put themselves in to start this series,
you did not have the margin for error, You did
not have the room to have a result like this
(04:29):
on you know the scorecard.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Yeah, that's I mean, that's why you don't lose games
one and two at home, yep, in a series. I mean,
they have the rare advantage of you know, potentially being
able to play to the last three at home. You know, normally,
when you're down three to one, it's you know, it's
like twenty sixteen where you had to you know, win
a Game seven on the road. But honestly, bro, I'm
(04:54):
not even thinking about game six is or Game seven's
right now.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
It's all about five. I just I just want to.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
See them show up with some some some pride, some
attention to detail, and like I you know, I've been
thinking a lot about this series and like, well, obviously,
you know, if it, if it goes the way it's trending,
we'll do a more proper eulogy. But I am disappointed
right now about how the team's lack of I guess,
(05:26):
readiness for for the things that are getting thrown at them. Uh,
you know, I I just don't. I don't feel like
they've been a terribly you know, mentally resilient team in
this series, which I think I'm pretty disappointed by, just
because I thought that was what I was so impressed
with all year. You know, they didn't seem ready for that,
(05:50):
for that Pacers offense to start, and weren't able to
really ever get their feet under them in Game one.
In this game, it's like it almost looked like the
players were like, wait, they're going to adjust to Ari zone.
So I just feel like they haven't been sharp and
all the while, they've probably on balance outplayed Indie over
(06:13):
the course of the series, you know, minute by minute.
But it's just is kind of immaterial when you when
you get to the results, and I think a lot
of it comes to lack of attention to detail and
lack of focus and lack of sharpness. You know. I
was so impressed in Game three with how they were
flashing to beat the press, with how they were when
(06:36):
they got across half court. They were pushing and turning
the corner and getting runs to the to the to
get to the rim. You know, they just had none
of that in this game. I mean, they would they
would get across that they'd spend seven point nine nine
seconds to get across half court, and then they'd stop
(06:57):
and survey, and it's like, well, that's that's exactly what
the press wants you to do. Yeah, you know, And
I think that's where I'm I was really disappointed by
that game. Was the degree to which the Calves seeded
every part of the game to what Indy wanted to
do and what INDI wanted to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah, I feel like they haven't stuck with their identity
so far in this series. And you know, obviously, when
you have turmoil in terms of who's available and to
what degree that they are available, you know they're in
the lineup, but they're not there physically. That's going to
have an impact. But I don't think it justifies what
we saw in Game four, because we saw them, with
(07:37):
the guys that were available for Game four, come out
with a much better effort. Right, Like you said, the
aggressiveness in beating that press, how they would come to
the ball, how you know they would fight through it
and make sure that they were maintaining tempo, not allowing
Indy to dictate the terms of engagement with their perimeter pressure.
(07:58):
We saw that in Game three, just like in Game one.
I'm actually going to disagree with you a little bit.
I thought they did find their footing in Game one.
They ultimately took the lead, they just weren't able to
kind of hang on to that, and obviously Mobile and
Hunter are getting hurt in the fourth had something to
do with that, but I think what we saw in
game one was more understandable. Right, You're coming off a
(08:19):
laugher of a series where you didn't have to play
with intensity and you get punched in the mouth by
a team that did play, you know, in some tough
games in the first round. That disappointing, but it's understandable.
What we saw in game four is almost reverting back
to where they were to start the series. And when
you have the experience, when you've had the reps of
(08:40):
playing against this team, you know what their strengths and
weaknesses are at that point. That's what made it so
disappointing to me. And you know, I just I don't
like the fact that, you know, we're in a situation
where what they needed to do are things that we've seen.
It just seemed like it got lost in the shuffle
and for gone, and just like Game one was understandable,
(09:05):
you know, frustrating, but understandable. This type of result happens
in playoff series. You had, you know, game six of
the first round in twenty eighteen with lebron you lost
by thirty five to Indiana. Game two of the twenty
sixteen finals in Golden State, you lost by thirty three.
Every time one of these, you know, thirty to forty
(09:25):
point losses, even though you.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Know time got it down to twenty.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Anytime you have one of these games, it always feels like, oh,
we don't belong in the series. It always feels bad.
But again, if you win game two, it feels like
this is a successful weekend.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
That's you know.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
We can sit here and we say flush that down.
We break down the game the same way we're doing now,
saying you know what happened, Why did they let go
of the rope? Why was there not the attention to
detail and the focus. But because of the situation that
they've put themselves in, you know, this stings so much more.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Yeah, yeah, And I do think there is something. I
think part of the reason I was so apoplectic after
Game two. Privately, I pulled I pulled it together for
the pod, even though it was a sad boy.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Right, I was so.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I was so distraught because I know what a kitchen
sink game looks like, and the Calves had to play
two in a row just to get the gate the
series to one two because they blew one of their
kitchen sink games.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And I think that hanged and and I do think there.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Was something to that where you know, everyone can say
from a distance and like, I don't know if this
sounds excusey or not, people will, I'm sure tell me.
But we can say play with desperation. You know, they
said in the post game after Game three, we didn't
do anything.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
We got to play with desperation.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
I do think the brained is led up a little bit,
you know. I mean that's why no one's ever come
back from three to zero, you know, and three to
one is so rare because it's hard to play desperate
night after night after night after night. You know, eventually
your brain chemistry does want to revert to something calmer,
you know, it wants to find it's you know, if
(11:20):
desperation is one side of the the you know, the
mental spectrum, your brain wants equilibrium.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
It wants to to chill, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
And you could tell that that was what the Cavs
were doing, you know, they were, uh you know some
of these pocket passes to Jared Allen where Nimhart is
just able to dig down against the drop and blow
up the pass, like that's just Donovan running a set.
Like it's like it's January, you know, not the level
of force that you need them to play with. I'm
(11:52):
not trying to go with Donovan. He's been amazing in
the series. It's just a collective example of like what
desperation play looks like and what it doesn't. And like
I've seen a lot of people griping about the physicality
from Indy. I'm just not going to be one of them,
you know. I mean there's stuff that annoys me. You know,
I'm glad Mathern got tossed.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
It is the whole thing in a game.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Yeah, which again was exactly what I said after Game three.
If you're going to be the guy that does dirty plays,
you can't also be the guy that flops.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Yeah, sorry, but sorry, but uh you know, so, like
there's stuff I don't like about it, but like I'm sorry, guys,
we want a championship. Pull and grab and bump and
bruising yep, people who preferred to play a finesse game
and run around off off pin downs and stuff, and
like you can't Cav's got twenty first half free throw attempts.
(12:46):
You know, they the refs were calling stuff and I
don't think that is a I think that's the thing
you got to be able to overcome as an offense
if you ever want to be worth anything in this league. Yeah,
and we have seen the Calves continue to have that problem,
you know, when they're really really focused, when they're really
really locked in, when they're really really optimized, everyone's healthy,
(13:10):
everyone's doing a good we've seen them be able to
beat up that kind of pressure turn it against them.
You know, they did that to Miami in the first
round and you know Game of the Year against Okay. See,
they did that to Okay.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
See. They've done it by times in this series. Yes,
you know.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
They Brandon in the chat was like, where's the one
eighteen offensive rating? I was promised. I was like, it's
like one seventeen or it was for through three games,
you know. But it's the consistency. It's doing it under duress,
it's doing it every play, and they just haven't been
able to muster that kind of effort against that kind
of pressure.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
And the interesting thing, you know, people are going to
overreact to some aspects of this game, right Like I
would say, through seven games of the playoffs, the Calves
largely own the interior. They've owned the glass. They own
the point paints in the paint points in the pain.
Jared Allen has been fantastic. He was terrible in Game four,
Like and in a lot of ways, I sometimes feel
(14:06):
like Jared's the Canarian the coal mine in terms of
the Caves overall health. Right Like when Game four against Miami,
when Jared gets that steal and the breakaway to start
the game, we say, Okay, well, yeah, they're they're locked.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
In that this is going to be easy win for
the Calves.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
When he struggles like this, it's almost like he gets
overwhelmed with the situation where there's so many breakdowns defensively
and you know, just doesn't have the same impact. I'm
not going to kill Jared for it because he has
been exactly what we've needed throughout the playoffs prior to
this game. I'm not going to kill Donovan for having
a bad first half because you know, as you said,
(14:42):
it was consecutive kitchen sink games. I was thrilled with
their effort in game two and how hard they played shorthanded.
I was thrilled with what they did in game three.
I'm not going to forget that because Game four was
so frustrating but you know, they weren't able to sustain.
And I think there's something to what you're saying about,
(15:03):
you know, trying to maintain that desperation in all of
these matchups. But I do want to get your thoughts
on the pressure on the perimeter, because we've seen them
beat it at times in this series. We've seen them
struggle with it at times in the regular season. We've
seen them excel against it at times in the regular season.
(15:24):
What do you think it is that makes it so
difficult for them to sustain? Is it that they have
to play with such an elevated level of focus and effort,
and you know, just to make up for the fact
that they do have a smaller backcourt. What do you
think it is that makes it so that something that
we know that they're capable of doing versus these teams,
(15:46):
they aren't able to reliably do it at the level
we want to see.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Well, I guess you just got to look to you know,
what the difference was when they have done it. Typically
it's involved a Darius Garland who can Yeah, he's just
fallen over running right now. You know, his feet just
cannot paying through a calf issue. Uh, you know, Hunter
can't grip the ball with his right hand. He's shot
(16:12):
put in his jumpers right now, you know so?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
And then Ty who was kind of your change of pace,
Like he was kind of your i'll hit you back option.
If you're gonna ride me, you're at least going to
get an elbow to your gut on the on the way.
Uh as I turned the corner like Ty can't play
right now?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (16:33):
So you know you have all these different all the
all the you know, usual suspects you'd look to for
press breaking aren't there right now or in pressure breaking.
And then also frankly, I got to go at.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
The team a little bit. So those are those are
my nice, nice excuses. Uh.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
Evan Mobley's usage rate has dropped five percent in the postseason.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
What a I mean?
Speaker 4 (17:00):
This was your stick the entire offseason, which is, if
you're going to have a small backcourt, you need to
have front court initiation to be a release valve. And
they're not doing it. I'm sorry. You can be as
nice like nim Hard Anie Smith can be as good
as they want on defense, They're getting away with Thomas
(17:23):
Bryant minutes comfortably. I know, really, where's the I'm where's
the team that bullied kalel Ware off the floor.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Here's the thing.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
I'm really glad you brought this up because it's exactly
what I have in mind.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Right, Like I.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Think, on the one hand of the coin, that is
something that they need to focus on. Right, Like I
think from an off season preparation standpoint, Donovan, I'm going
to cut some slack because you know, he's been playing
through the angle. He's been playing through the cap basically
that whole cot.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And he's been a killer. He's the only one who's
turned in the corner right now, right, I'm.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Going to cut him some slack there. I understand what's
going on with with Darius. I actually think he's on
a pretty decent job of turning the corner considering he's
playing with one tire. But at the same time, I
think that there is some physical maturity that he needs
to continue to do. I think the same thing goes
for Evan Mobley. I think this team needs to get
a little more physical on the perimeter. But what I
(18:16):
will say is you understand that you have to maintain
a level of focus and aggressiveness on the perimeter to
counteract what teams are able to do from a length standpoint.
One of the ways you can do that is involving
your bigs. And I know we've disagreed at times in
the past when it comes to Jared being like, oh,
you know, he's kind of a function of the overall offense,
(18:38):
You're not really running place for him. You can run
place for Jared. He is, you know, someone that's going
to make smart decisions in the short role. I think
we saw in the Miami series, as you said, when
we were attacking kellel Ware, that is something that you
can go to. And I think that has to be
on both the guards and the coaching staff of making
sure Evan Mobley and Jared Allen are being used, that
(19:00):
they are being counted on at times to break the pressure.
Even when you're talking about the full court press. What
is the intention of having Evan Mobley bring the ball
up so many times throughout the regular season if that
isn't a wrinkle that you are throwing to break the press. Yeah,
Nie Smith and Emhard are going to be pressuring the
guards as they're bringing it up and trying to make
(19:21):
you use as much of the shot clock as possible.
Are they going to do the same thing. If it's
Evan Mobley available as an outlets, Pascal Siakam'm going to
start covering him, you know, ninety four feet.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I don't believe so, or at the very I guess
if he wants to try, at the.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Very least, I would like to find out, right, Like,
I think that that is something that you can go
to in these spots. And as much as as much
as I think the overall situation we're in in this
series has to do with the injuries, right, Like, I
don't think you lose those games at home if you're
fully healthy, right, I think even if DeAndre Hunter and
Evan Mobley don't get hurt in the fourth quarter of
(19:57):
Game one, I think you win that game. If lane
violations get called properly, you win game two. That's all
very frustrating, but the margins shouldn't have been that thin.
And I think, you know, as much as the overall
situation I believe has a lot to do with the injuries,
what happened in Game four didn't and because it was
things that it had looked like they had solved at
(20:20):
already in this series that they kind of backtracked and
backslid in like that's that to me is what makes
it very frustrating. And I think that's the type of
stuff that's going to lead to some macro takeaways and
reflection when you look back at whenever this playoff run ends.
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think at the end of the day,
they're just not playing well enough to make me feel
like you can just point to the injuries and like,
I think the injuries trim their margin for error for sure,
but like this is a team at the beginning of
(20:59):
the series. Uh, we kind of said to each other,
I don't know if we said on the pod, We're like,
if Darius doesn't play, it's going to be hard, but
we we can still win this series. We should, you know,
maybe I don't know if we said should, but I
think we both kind of felt like they they had
a really good shot to but like not playing like this,
(21:20):
you know.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Games showed how much of a margin for there was,
Like in these a very very good team. The Cavs
didn't shoot thirty percent in any of the first three
games of the series, and they had chances to win
every single one of these games, even you know, without
Evan Mobley missing two of your top three players missing,
you know, DeAndre Hunter, who's been essential, but Donovan Mitchell
playing through you know, all the lower body ailments he has,
(21:44):
it has shown their margin for error, like they should
be a team that can you know, survive some you know,
postseason injuries and be able to be conservative with the management,
which you know, I think we were hoping that they
would be conservative when it came to Darius, but I
think it's very clear that no, it's like.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
No, it's just one of those things that didn't get better.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Yeah, it's one of those things that it took a
lot to get it to the point where he could
even you know, tough through it. And I'm not going
to question his toughness that the guy that played twenty
two minutes in the second half of a game with
a broken jaw on a mouthful of blood. He was
playing down you know, the stretch of the season through
this toe almen, Like, I'm not going to be questioning that,
(22:28):
but you know, I do think even limited right, Like,
I think one of the things that we've loved about
Darius is getting Evan mobilely involved. And we want to
see if you're playing through injuries and you're you're not
at one hundred percent. Can you find the counters? Can
you do what Donovan's done, which is, hey, you know,
I'm unfortunately every time that we've been in the playoffs
(22:51):
with Donovan pretty much he's dealing with some sort of
lower body ailmens and the three pointer hasn't really been there.
But he's found ways to be so effective. He's managed to,
you know, get that rim press. Sure, and you know,
I think that's part of the growth and maturity process.
But from a Darius standpoint, the two man game with
him and Evan Mobley like that got them to you know,
a forty eight win pace before Donovan even got here
(23:14):
when the two of them were playing right like, that
is something that you can rely on.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
That is one of the most.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Effective two man combinations of the last few years. Not
utilizing Evan Mobley enough is really disappointing because at the
very least I'd like to go down with the ship
trying that right, Like, we understand how important that is
for the future of this team and the future.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Of this group.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
At least get those reps in right, Let's try to
salvage this situation by doing that well.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
And there's just like a little bit of like and
I think one of the most disappointing things about the
last game was like they completely just stop trying to
run anything for anybody, right, I mean, it was just like,
barely get the ball over half court, run a half
a pick and roll, and try a Midtie. It's like,
(24:04):
you know, like, hell, I don't care. Try a couple
Evan post ups. He's gotten way better on the posts.
He can get a switch yep and and try to
mash that and get to on the ball. You know,
like a lot is correctly noted about this team's three
point shooting falling off a cliff in this series. But
I'm not gonna play the variance game here because not
(24:27):
only I mean I haven't checked the wide open numbers.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
I can look that for these.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Since game one, but I would argue that even their
wide open ones aren't easy right now because they're taking
so much effort to get to them. You know, Donovan
missed one where he had to do like a very
violent step back in game four. It's like, none of
these threes are in balance and rhythm. No one gets
(24:55):
catch and shoot threes except Max, and it's just like
your process is just not leading to a shod diet
that's worth putting your name one.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They're down to fifteen wide open threes per game. They're
shooting twenty seven percent on those. But again, like that
is such a far drop off from what we saw
in the regular season when it came to this team, right, Like,
they were a team that was in the regular season
they got twenty five wide open threes per game. When
they would play Indiana for the season, they got over twenty, right,
(25:31):
And sure that twenty seven percent is going to be
part of this.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
Milwaukee get against them, That's what I want to know,
because I felt like they were getting an open three
whenever they wanted. And I know Yannis is great and
we don't have a Yanis, but we have ways to
make defenses break. And that's like, again, turn the freaking
corner man.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Like Milwaukee got seventeen.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Like that Milwaukee team should not be generating more open
threes than us. And I'll bet they hit more of
them too, because they were open in rhythm, comfort types
of shots.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, and yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
I mean I guess some of this, maybe I am
playing the result a little and maybe it's hard like
we maybe they should be shooting better but I'm also
watching the game, and I'm watching Donovan uh you know empty.
You know, like if you have like a big stamina
meter for the for the game that reflects how tired
you are, but you have like a possession by possession
(26:34):
exertion meter. I feel like every Cavs three, they're they've
expended their.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Per play exertion.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Yeah, so even if they get open, they're freaking having
a you know, you know, get get get set up,
really really think about getting a clean shot off.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
It's just not easy.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And then you watch Indie and you know, it's just
a parade of mostly rhythm threes. So I don't know
what side I'm more disappointed in the defensive side or
the offensive side.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Right now? I lean offense.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
I do too, because I've I've always felt that's the problem,
and I think it is fueling Indiana's perimeter game and
transition game. You know how many miles turner trailer threes
has he gotten in this series, just because Indi is
just constantly in motion. But it just goes back to
(27:30):
the detail thing. Sorry, I'm just getting a little ranty,
but like they you know, the floor balance isn't even good,
you know, like I just I'm not seeing them do
enough right for a team that I thought was ready
to go compete for a championship, And like it's not over.
They can absolutely clean this stuff up. They might not
(27:50):
win the series even if they clean it up, by
the way, because the margins are so thin now, But
like that's what I.
Speaker 3 (27:57):
Want to see, you know.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
I felt like I really watched them give a give
a god's honest effort in Boston, completely outgunned by the end.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
I want to see the same thing. Yeah, totally agree.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I think it's clear that they're not putting themselves in
their position to do the best work, which is something
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(28:31):
and focus is the biggest thing for me because this
lost things a little bit less, just because I can
see the situation that we're in physically right, Like even
if they came back to win the series. We talked
about this on the last podcast, Like, I think the
ceiling for what this playoff run can be is capped
by the health situation.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
That we're in.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And now we've can add Donovan Mitchell to that list.
He's listed is questionable for the next game. For Game five,
I will likely be a game time decision. You know,
look like a reaggravation of the ankle seems to be
the reporting I did see. Brian Windhors was mentioning, Hey,
you know he has been playing through a calf. All
(29:11):
of that's connected as you know, someone that is currently
going through a setback. When it comes to my rehabit,
it just leads to me being incredibly you know, paranoid
when it comes to anything calf related. But I definitely
trust the Cavs trainers and medical staff when it comes
to that. But we'll see what his availability is. But
I would say, you know, even if Donovan is enabled
(29:32):
to play, I think this team is able to put
up a good enough effort to win Game five. I
think that they can accept.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
At home man and they won sixty four.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Games, and you know, I think once again, the effort
and how it occurs is the biggest thing. I could
have been okay with a Game four loss. I could
have been okay with that exact type of scenario if
the rest of the series had felt differently, right, Like,
we understand that there's going to be lowel losses in
(30:01):
either direction of the playoffs, and sometimes you know, you
you lose the battle and you come back to.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Win the war.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Both of those instances that I mentioned before, where you know,
with Lebron led teams, the Calves lost by thirty to
forty points in the playoffs, they came back and they
won the series, whether it was the twenty sixteen finals
or Game seven against Indiana in the first round. So
it doesn't have to be a death sentence. But for me,
what I really want to see is Caves to feel
(30:28):
like the Calves, and if they go down in game five, six, seven,
whatever the case may be, with an honest effort where
it feels like the Calves, I'm going to feel better
about that.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
And I yeah, there's no shame in losing to an
indie team that after like a ten and sixteen start
with bananas.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
The rest of the way.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
That is, you know that I was you know had
appropriate fear of there's no shame in losing to them
when with the injury text you have around him, I
think that you just crossed that threshold when you're not
playing your style of basketball, when you're you know, even
(31:10):
like stuff like Tai Jerome just having a nightmare series
like that sucks, right, Like I'm not but I'm not
sitting here mad at Ti Jerome. I'm bummed. I'm sure
Ty is bummed that he's having the series he's having,
especially after the first round he had against Miami, where
you think, okay, everything you thought, yeah, and uh, you know,
(31:35):
so I'm sure he's bummed. But I there's a reason
we're not on here decrying that Tai Jerome is letting
the team down, because like one, that's not interesting analysis
and you know, only serves to make yourself feel good
holding someone accountable or whatever, and I hate that, which we're.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Going to get a lot of that this SAW season.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, But like I the reason we're
not doing is because like that's just like a guy
having a bad performance, and that is understandable. It's not
personally acceptable, I'm sure to him, but like it's not
indicative of a team losing who they are, you know,
and like so much of what's gone on in the series.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
In these pockets of pain.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
Game four n understanding, which was just a you know,
the whole factory of pain. But like these pockets of
pain where they're losing these games, is that it's them
losing themselves, not playing the way that we know they're
capable of playing. And it's like, well, guys, like I
guess you know there's a bit of reaping sewing going on.
(32:44):
You know, you don't play your style against a good
team who never ever doesn't play their style, you know,
Like I do think if they lose this series, there
should be some soul searching, not just about what this
roster is capable of, but like they should look across
the aisle and be like, why do they never lose
(33:08):
who they are? Given that Game three, where the Calves
had a great game plan, controlled the game the whole
way through. In the fourth quarter, there were the Pacers
doing there.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Felt several pushes from them, right like the Calves were
able to answer back. But even though they had those stretches,
they did get back to you know, who they are
and what their style of play is.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I think that's going to be one of the macro
takeaways because even though you know you.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
Can ascribe a lot of what's.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
Happened to the injuries, that losing you know, your identity
and your style of play is something that honestly, if
the Cavs were fully healthy, it probably could overcome in
this individual series. They probably would overcome in this individual series,
but it would show up later in the playoffs. Yeah,
it's going to show up, you know, against the Boston
(33:56):
or against an OKC. And if we want to hold
ourselves to that championship standard, in if that's what this
team is going to continue to build towards, that is
usable data. That is a macro takeaway that you can
take from the series. And I don't I you know,
the people that doubted the Cavs coming into this, I
don't expect them, Like it would be absolute lunacy for
(34:18):
me to expect them to look at this result and say, Okay,
well I'm going to approach this with nuance. No, they're
going to go to their priors, right Like, when you
have played as well as the Calves have played this
season and you earn those expectations for yourself. You know,
people are going to have opinions. If you come up
short of expectations, you are going to receive backlash. I
(34:41):
think that this team is more than capable of handling that.
But I do think, you know, you have to find
those nuggets of truth or is you like to say,
what lessons do you want to learn from this situation?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
And I think that.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Type of identity aspect of this is something that requires analysis.
It requires them to reflect upon it, and you know,
applied properly, can be something that ends up being a
difference maker. When you talk about this team's evolution to
try to become, you know, a championship team.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It most importantly has nothing to do with injuries, correct,
because injuries are always going to muddy your analysis. They're complicated.
You know, we get yelled at a lot. We're getting
yelled at in the YouTube chat right this very second
for talking too much about injuries, which I think is
funny because I think we're barely talking about them.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
I think we're talking about why they don't matter. And
for the most part, yea.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
If anything, Yeah, But like at the end of the day,
I see when when things do get muddy in any
scientific experiment, which every basketball season for your team is
an experiment. You look at the controls, you look at
the the things that aren't going to be variable, and
you know there's a reason, even without Halliburton in the
(35:56):
Conference finals last year, that Indy was making Austin sweaty.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
And I just think they.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Need to whatever road it is, they have to find it,
whether it's going to be this series, whether it's the
off season, whether it's.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
In a different era of the team.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Like your ultimate goal, your ultimate goal should be an
identity and a style of play that is magic you
can impose correct and that you can impose.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
You know, I've one of my favorite models for team
building that I've brought up a lot is the Grit
and grind and Grizzlies, who never won a title, who
had plenty of series they lost, you know, every year
they always lost someone or to someone. But you knew
that going into this series. And you can even look
(36:50):
at the magic right now in that way, like the
magic got.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You know what a magic series feel like?
Speaker 4 (36:57):
They got comfortably dispatched in five games and Boston hated
every second of it. Yep, Like that's what I want,
That's what I want my.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Team to be. That's what I want my team to do.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
And I'm not saying go be the Orlando Magic, be
the Calves, but like, you've got to be the Calves
all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And I think a big part of that, you know,
goes back to what we were saying before about involving
the bigs and particularly involving Evan Mobley. We know how
important he has to be to the Cavs success, and
I feel like when we've been in some of these
games where you know they've kind of lost the sense
of who they are, it's not because Mobley's out there struggling.
(37:34):
And I think there were times in Game four where
it seemed like, Okay, they know what he's trying to do,
and they were taking away some of his counters. They
did a good job of him individually, but never really
feels like you don't get the five of twenty Evan
Mobley game right where it's all right, we're trying to
go down with the ship and he's just not able
to deliver.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
What's the most field goal attempts Evan's taken in the
playoffs so.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Far fourteen thirteen.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Oh wow, I'm good at guessing getting back to you know,
your good and grind example. I think an even more
relatable example for Kavs fans the twenty sixteen Cleveland Cavaliers.
You looked at that twenty fifteen Finals, and people said,
look how they were able to muddy things up against
the Warriors.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
They need to play.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You know, you would get the need to bench Kyrie,
You need a bench, Kevin Love.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You need to muddy up the series.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
You got to slow things down, you got to make
the Warriors uncomfortable, you got to beat them up. And
the Cavs said, that's not our identity. Yes, that worked
in twenty fifteen out of desperation. That was how we
were able to make a series of it, but that's
not how we play. And the top four highest paced
games of the twenty sixteen Finals were all Cavs wins
because they played their style. They weren't afraid that their
(38:45):
style played into what the Warriors typically like to do.
They played to their identity, and I think finding that
identity is one of the most important things for the Cavs.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
And you know, I.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Think we've talked a lot about the players and where
they came up shortly in this game, but I do
think beyond them, you know, understanding what needs to change
for Game five, executing the way that we've seen in
previous games of this series. I do think some of
this it has to fall in the coaching staff as well.
(39:17):
I thought Indiana came out, they had a plan of
attack for the three to two zone, and the cast
stayed in you know, they stayed in looks that made
Indiana feel comfortable offensively. Far too frequently in this game.
They were able to, you know, get those deep corner
shots and attack the zone from there. You know, I
think three two zone and zone in general is something
(39:39):
that you can throw at Indy. I think it has
to be for a possession or two, right Like, Okay,
we're playing man to man boom for one or two
possessions in a row. We're throwing zone, then we're going
back to man. We're going to sawt switch here, We're
going to fight through screens here, We're going to throw
a variety of looks, which honestly we saw against you know,
the Miami Heat and Tyler Hero they were throwing a
variety of defensive looks at them. They stayed in the
(40:02):
same looks far too consistently. And I think that that
allowed Indy to just play their game, as he said, uninhibited.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
Yeah, the the you know, and it's not that just necessarily.
I'm like, you're not allowed to play three two zone anymore,
you know. Nate Duncan made some really good observations in
the game on Twitter about how, you know, Evan needs
to just when he gets screened at the top, he
just needs to stick with the roller because that role
is just too unprotected, especially if Jarrett isn't out there.
(40:36):
So like, you know, but when you do that, then
you open up the pull up game. You know, now
you're just getting screened uninhibited because the help can't get
up there in time. So it's like it just felt
like not only did they stick in the three two zone,
they stuck with the same three two zone principles for
too long, you're right, and it's like they have a
(40:57):
solve for the way you're guarding this. You have to
tweak it or show something different every now and again,
even within the three to two yep, And they just
kind of hung and said, well, let's see. I mean,
Indy has so many wide open layups duck ins with
where a big rolls or cuts to the rim baseline
(41:17):
and catches it with ridiculously deep position.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
And gets the easiest and ones of their career.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Like, I mean, the there was just such a systematic
opening and then the execution was poor too, you know,
and like I mean, you can maybe get away with
one with the Calves defensive talent, you can't get away
with both.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Yeah, Now that was that sucked.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Yeah, And the thing is right, like Indy's going to
make you uncomfortable. Indy doesn't have the level of defensive
personnel that the Calves have, right, Like, even if you
look at playoff defensive rating, the Calves do have a
better defensive rating for the playoffs. But what Indied does
is they rush your decision making. You have to be
sharp at all times. And I think one of the
(42:06):
things that the Cavs have had defensively, like the form
the most part, the defense is held up regular season playoffs,
they've been a good defense. This is the first series
where I feel like they've lost control defensively at times.
But I think what we've seen from the Caves is
they do a good job contesting.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
The rim.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Protection has always been fantastic. They're able to stay in
their shell defense and you know, put forward a you know,
a defense that's good enough to go out there and win,
and often a you know, a top five, top ten defense.
But they don't make teams uncomfortable often enough. They will
stay kind of in those base looks and they don't
(42:44):
rush your decision making. They don't make things more difficult
for you in those ways. They trust what they are
able to do, right, like Max Strus getting in the
jersey of Tyre's Halliburn fighting through screens.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
You love to see that.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, what they're able to do
on the back line defensively like that is all really
important stuff. But they aren't able to create havoc when
it comes to their defense unless it's you know, Evan
mobilely grabbing a block out of the air and starting
a fast break as a result of it.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
It's kind of the Isaaco Couro problem in Mac in
whatever the opposite, you know, sound positional defense that doesn't
do enough to bother the shot before the shot, right,
And I think you know that that's another one of
those things I'm going to have you know, my eye
on when it comes to the offseason, right, because there's
going to be limitations in terms of what this team
(43:35):
can do as a second apron team.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
You're it's tinkering on the margins, but understanding that it's okay,
how can we make enough of a change to our
style of play without dramatic shakeups? Like how how how
can we do things both internally and on the margins,
you know, from a roster construction standpoint, to modify our
(44:00):
style of play so that we are able to be
a little bit more bothersome, because when you had that
level of backline defense in theory, you should be able
to do a little bit more gambling. You should be
able to blitz a little bit, blitz and recover and
make teams uncomfortable defensively. And that's that's one of those
things that I'm going to have an eye on.
Speaker 4 (44:19):
Yeah, for sure, me too. Game five, do you make
any rotational changes?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
I don't think you can.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Like, you know, you can say, all right, well, should
Craig port a junior play instead of tie? No, I like,
There's been times where I've liked to I'd like to
see Craig. I like the minutes that he had. I
thought that was one of the issues with Game two
is I would have liked to have seen him get
a second shift. I like his athleticism out there. You
(44:47):
can say Javonte Green for energy and things like that,
but I think you just kind of have to go
with the guys that you have. Obviously, some of that
is going to be dependent on the availability of Donovan Mitchell.
If he's not able to play, your inevitably going to
have some changes to the rotation. I if I was
to suggest a wild card in that kind of instance
(45:09):
where you have to have a major kind of you know,
you have to replace a major contributor in Donald Mitchell,
I wouldn't hate throwing out Jalen Tyson just for a physicality,
second chance opportunities, and because this might have to be
one of those guys that you rely on the future to,
you know, change how you feel on the perimeter.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
You know, just from a physicality standpoint.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
I might be playing Jalen over Dean or Isaac and
just give it a shot. That's yeah, That's That's what
I'm saying, is you know if yeah, well you said
if Donovan doesn't play, I'm saying maybe even if he does, okay,
because at this point Isaac's just not in the right
let me. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm suggesting. Not
a long shift. I'm talking eight to ten minutes total,
(45:57):
but that is paired with you know, it's a two
parter because I think I'm playing Evan and Jarrett forty
minutes plus, yeah, and saying, uh, you know, we're going
down with If I'm going down with two bigs, I'm
going down playing guys who can you know, change the
(46:18):
physicality game in our favor a little bit, get us
extra possessions in the former rebounds, a little bit of
extra shooting from the wing in Jalen, especially since I
don't trust DeAndre to be able to shoot yeah right now.
But like, you know, these are a little bit of
you know, some of the playing a rookie who wasn't
(46:40):
in your rotation all year in a deciding playoff game
like is indicative of what the state of the back
end of the Cavs rotation right now.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
Yeah. Where the real answer is.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Ty has to play well, Darius has to play well,
Jared has to play well, Evan has to play well.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
And if they do that, if they ever.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Yeah yeah, uh and you know, but I if they can't,
then I need I need someone who's gonna try stuff
and maybe mess up.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yeah, and uh and uh, and I'll go with Jalen
doing that. I I I completely agree.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
I think I think, you know, the Jalen Tyson conversation
is one that we're going to be having this offseason
because it will.
Speaker 4 (47:25):
Be I I don't even know if it's a conversation.
I just think he's gonna he needs to get the
he needs to get there.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
You need him to get no.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
But I mean, you know, opening up that opportunity is
going to take, you know, some changes because they have
so much depth, right, So I think that he is
someone that brings some of that physicality, some of that
edge on the perimeter. And I like, I honestly, I
love what Max has been for for the Cavs. I
(47:54):
think he you know, when you look back at that
sign trade, this is basically the best case scenario. I
think he is better as he's been a member of
the Calves. I think he has been probably our most
consistent player in the playoffs. You know now that that
Jared has had that kind of one dud game, I
would have given Jared the nod prior to that, but
I think Max is running with that ground right now.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
I like what DeAndre has given the Calves.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
I'm cunning him a ton of slack because he's so
he can can't grip the ball right now, Like I'm
gonna cut him slack in that scenario. But I really
like how he is fit with this team. It's about
going beyond those six right and reflecting on Okay, well things.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
Went wrong for ty Jerome. What does that mean? Right?
Speaker 2 (48:40):
You know, Isaac Okor, I think we're going to have
some conversations about him. Dean Wade, We're not going to
have some conversations about him. But when you have promising,
you know, young players like a Jalen Tyson and to
some extent, Craig Porter Jr. It forces you to have
these conversations from a team building standpoint. So we'll see
what the availability is for Game five. You know, when
(49:01):
it comes to Donovan Mitchell, as much as I want
to go out and win this game and extend the series,
you got to do what's best for the long term
health there.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So we'll see what his availability is. I'm sure he
will be fighting to give it a go.
Speaker 2 (49:14):
But I'm not disappointed with his effort at all in
these playoffs I think he is, you know, laid it
all on the line, and that's exactly what I hope
from the overall team.
Speaker 4 (49:23):
In game five, absolutely, man, come on, let's extend this thing. Sure,
I don't want to see these dudes go out at home.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
No, so totally agree.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Let's let's defend a home court and see, you know
how much further we can extend it from there, one
game at a time. Big thanks to everyone that tuned
in live on YouTube. Carter, thank you for you know,
struggling through that voice. I appreciate it. I can't believe
this has happened again for you in the playoffs, but
I love you, buddy, I love you. Get all our
listeners as well. We appreciate you.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Make sure you like and subscribe. Click that notification bells
know when we're going live. If you're listening to a
podcast and you want to support us, leave us a rating,
late review, subscribe unsubscribed to subscribe and help cook those
books if you want to be or Chase Down's exclusive
discord chat Sidy screen show the view to Chase Doownpott
gmail dot com. However you chuse the supports, we really
do appreciate it. Make sure you guys are staying safe
out there. Until next time, Don Gast
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