Reflecting On The 2024-2025 Season

Justin and Carter return with their reflections on how the season ended for the Cleveland Cavaliers and what the next steps should be. As well as their thoughts on the postseason press conference from Koby Altman, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley earning All NBA honors and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to itspeing, what Carl slam it out?
Carl left wing free ball perfect?

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Then he left block the shot at the rim? How
with the left hand and a fowl.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Welcome the Chase Doown Podcast, part of the Caves media family.
I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase Doown is presented
by Fubo, the official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch
over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV,
including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost
and no commitment. Try for free at foubotv dot com
slash Calves. Well, we have allowed for some time for
the season to marinate, for us to process our thoughts,

(00:38):
to get our minds right, to talk about the Caves
for the rest of the off season. And I feel refreshed.
I feel ready to be back at it, and I
am glad to be joined by my co host, Carter Rodriguez.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Carter, how you doing, buddy?

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Uh? Not feeling that refreshed after a week of travel
and another week of travel incoming, but nevertheless, I have
gone through my morning process. I have a lot of
you know, been just marinate and on the season that
was definitely I'm excited to talk about it.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
You know, you might still be processing. You had a
busy week, you didn't win an Emmy, but you know,
and I still think I still think being nominated as
cool as hell.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
But we do have some awards for.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
The Cleveland Cavaliers that came down the pipeline, Donovan Mitchell with.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
Someone's got to win some let me tell you.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Donovan Mitchell won first Team All NBA. No surprise there.
Evan Mobley is officially an All NBA player with a
second team win for him. Darius Garland did not make
the cut, but he was nineteenth in All NBA voting,
so you know, kind of officially in that top twenty
for All NBA voting.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Really impressive stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
No surprise there, but it still is nice to see,
you know, after we're sitting there the season is over,
just a reminder of how good these guys were for
the year.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Do you think you a trophy for All NBA? That
feels like a plaque? That's a plaque, that's definitely I
just got a feeling. Yeah, that feels like more of
a as a plaque a trophy.

Speaker 4 (02:09):
You know, who's to.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Say it depends It depends on how badly you need
to claim that you have a trophy. In my opinion,
I've got some plaques. I've got some trophies. I'm more
proud of the plaques, so I'm going to count them
as a trophy. In addition to them having those awards announced,
we did get Kobe Altman's end of season press conference.
I always find those to be very helpful. It feels

(02:31):
like a couple of years in a row where Kobe
has come out and said something and the media has
gone I don't really believe him. I don't know if
this is going to be how it plays out, and
then he does exactly what he said. So I think
some of the highlights when you look at that end
of season address was kind of what we expected, which
is he anticipates that the core four is going to remain,

(02:54):
the team is comfortable with their position going into the
second apron if they need to have the backing from
ownership to do that, which you know we expected. I
think the realities of Evan Mobley getting both Defensive Player
of the Year and All NBA was going to make
it nearly impossible to do some of the creative accounting
to get under that apron. But the nice thing is

(03:17):
those are fixed contracts. If you are someone that looks
ahead to kind of those team charts as the league
salary cap increases these next couple of years, getting back
under after a couple of seasons might be more feasible.
But I think the reality is that the Cavs are
going to be a second Apron team heading into the
new league year.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yeah, and I think you're spot on kind of calling
out that, you know, everyone thinks Kobe's playing like five
D chess with these pressers, And I do think this
team has kind of been for the you know, it's
it's been interesting seeing their development over the years because

(03:56):
early on they were like the curveball team, the whoa
they train for Andre Drummond, whoa they traded for Jared
Jared Allen, like you know, all the you know, even
the woe they traded for Donovan Mitchell or Larie Markinen,
Like these all these transactions were things we had no
idea were coming. So I feel like they kind of
have the reputation as a wilder front office than they've

(04:20):
operated as the last three years. Like all they've done
is exactly what they told you they were going to
do that. You leave the next series saying, hey, we
need shooting. Shootings are number one thing. They go signed
Struice and the Yang. They leave last year saying we
think we were just banged up. Sums heart two years
ago now sucks. That's not last year. Uh two years

(04:43):
ago now, and they say, ah, we're banged up. We
really believe in this group. We're going to go find
a coach that believes in this group. And then they
ran it back literally, you know, and brought in a
new coach. So they did exactly what they say they
were going to do. So it does ten just you know,
stand a reason that they're gonna do this. Even like

(05:03):
the DeAndre Hunter acquisition mid season, if you're paying close attention,
you could see the science that wasn't like a whoa,
they're gonna target a big wing like DeAndre Hunter.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Honestly, it was very similar to Karslavert, right, Like we
got like two months of lead up of hey, they're
probably going to target krosel Avert because they're down calling
sex and they're down Ricky Rubial and this team desperately
needs both a scorer and a ball handler, and he's
not the same scorer as Calling Sexton. He's not the
same ball handler as Ricky Rubial, but he's kind of
that fact like he's going to be able to split
the difference a little bit there. So, you know, heading

(05:39):
into this offseason with the realities of being a second
Apron team, I think it's important for people to understand
you are not able to aggregate salaries in a trade.
You are not able to combine two players in a
deal to trade for one unless that trade is going
to get you under the second Apron at the end
of that transaction. The realities is I don't think that

(05:59):
the As are looking to combine multiple high salary players
for a low salary player to cut costs. I think
that the Cavs are probably motivated to become a better team,
and from my standpoint, I'm open to ideas. I am
open to whatever, you know, team building things that the
team is able to find. But I do think the

(06:20):
realities of, you know, really only being in a position
to do those kind of one for one swaps makes
me feel like the opportunities to make this team better
do not involve trading the core four players. Because we
know Evan Mobley is going to be back. We know
Donovan Mitchell is going to be back. Those guys are
all NBA players and they are awesome.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Why would you not want them back?

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Then you look at Darius Garland and Jared Allen, I
would certainly, you know, Darius be nineteenth in all NBA
voting him being an All Star and also being on
a very affordable contract. I can't see a one for
one swap where the team gets better. Zach lowisurizing, Hey,
you know, if they want to cut some salary, the

(07:03):
Orlando Magic should be desperate to trade Jalen Suggs and
a ton of assets to go get Darius Garland. One,
if you are the team that is being targeted by
a desperate team trying to get better, you're not getting
better in that transaction. And then two, Lowe was sitting
there being like, oh, that's not really a discount because
Darius having signed the contract years ago before the salary

(07:23):
cap inflated. The types of players that you see at
that point are role players. They are you know, you're
Jalen Suggs, who's a very high end role player, Drew Holliday,
who's an aging vet you know on the way down,
Like I just don't think that there's a lot of
opportunities to get better in these one for one swaps.
So I am perfectly comfortable if something were to materialize

(07:44):
where that's the case, but just looking at it realistically,
looking at spotrack to try to figure out, okay, well,
what's even out there. I think the safe bet is
what we heard Kobe Altman say, which is the core
four players are still going to be back.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yeah, it just kind of tracks as such. I mean,
Jared Allen is the guy who kind of gets thrown
around the most, and I get it.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
He ended the.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Series very, very poorly, as did many players. He is
the fifth highest paid guy on the team per spot track.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
You know, like.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
Those you know, if you're looking to get a star
back in a one for one deal, Like I mean,
it gets pretty complicated pretty quick to try to get there.

Speaker 4 (08:34):
You know, uh uh.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
There are some interesting constructs or you know, some interesting
things that you can look at, but like at the
end of the day, it's just a little too complicated
to make a change trait like that. And I do
kind of expect the starters to be back at this
point or you know, the the really the top six
of the and.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
I expect, yeah, we might not know who the starters are. Like,
I still think that, you know, there's a case for
DeAndre Hunter to be the starting small forward. It's something
that I'd like to see at some point, but we'll
get into.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Kind of what would need to occur for that.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
But I do think my anticipation is that the top
six is going to be back. And you know, I
tweeted this out last week as I was kind of
going through my thoughts and whatnot, where people will talk about,
you know, moving Darius for you know, a role player
or two, like, let's try to get a wing player.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Let's try to do this one.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Having seen what the load on Donovan Mitchell's body is
when Darius is out of the lineup and how that
affects his play, I think it's just so clear those
two guards make each other better and two for if
our goal is to keep Donovan Mitchell healthy and you
know productive when we need him, increasing the load on
him is not something that I am rushing out to do.

(09:51):
And the other thing is, you know, people talk about
small backcourts and how few examples they are there are
in NBA history of those types of teams winning at
Championship one. I think that's valid. It's part of why
we have said Evan Mobley needs to be that guy
for the cast if they're going to get over the mountaintop.
But as few examples as there are of that, you know,

(10:13):
Steph Curry and Jordan Poole, I think would probably be
the most recent one. As few examples of that there
are of that, there are zero examples if you look
at the last thirty forty years where a team has
traded a current All Star for a role.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Player and that was the move that got them over
the hump.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
I defy you to find a single example of that
where you know, someone coming off an All Star season
was traded for a role player and that's what made
them better. That's one of those things that sounds good
on paper, it just doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
It has not occurred. It is nonsense.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
So from from that standpoint, I think, you know, people
are going to find their scapegoats. I subscribe to, you know,
the thinking that what happened against the Pacers was a
team wide failure, right like everybody had something that they
could have done better in these instances to change that result.
Even with the injuries they had. I still believe, even

(11:06):
with the injuries they had, if they executed better, if
they show that mental toughness, I think that they could
have won that series. But you know, I just don't
think that that is a productive conversation to have. I'm
open to examples, but I just don't think there are.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
Any No, no, there aren't.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
You know, you're gonna have to get creative, and like
I do kind of get that argument from those who
want to see change, like they don't just want to
hear no, not possible. You know, I do think the
front office should be, you know, looking creatively as they can,
trying to do as many unique things as they can.
And this is a front office that's done a nice
job of that historically, so you know, you have to

(11:48):
give them. You know, I'm open to I'm open to
interesting ideas, you know. I think that's an it's an
important point to make when you are kind of advocating,
like I mean, I think we're both generally running back
advocates here, you know, at least, and that's partly because
we've looked at what options are a vision. I think

(12:09):
that's that is the important distinction here, is we're not
It's not because we don't think things could be better
and that the team could improve and things like that.
It's just that we can't find it figure it out.
And like I do pretty firmly believe, especially like at
the level of analysis we're at where you know, we're
literally you know, talking about this team all the time.

(12:31):
We're not you know, a casual fans watching a couple
of games a year, like when you're in our seats.
I do think if you're going to criticize, you have
to come up with a better idea or a thing
you believe in more, you know, like, which is why
you know, like in an on court example, I felt comfortable,
you know, criticizing the the way the Cavs initiated offense

(12:55):
because I said, hey, here's three things I would have
done different, you know. But if I don't got those
three things I would have done different, I'm just not
super inclined to, uh, to criticize an action or or
you know, you'll do something yeah, in any context. So
like I do think that that is all important context

(13:19):
to add. I do want to ask you, though, buddy,
does it matter? Does it change your tune a little bit?
Seeing that you know Indy's just ripping through New York too,
in terms of feeling like maybe they like, you know,
a healthy New York team really doesn't seem to have

(13:39):
a ton of great solutions for the Spacers team either.
And I know neither of us were that high on
this New York team, which I mean, I feel like
we have to eat a little crow on that too,
because they did beat Boston a little crow, not a
lot of crow.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
A little I don't have to do anything I don't
want to do.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
Oh that's a great point, but like I do, you know,
part of me does feel like just a little bit like, well,
you know, you lose the series by like seventeen net points,
and you know, honestly, I feel better, Like I feel
feel like percent better.

Speaker 4 (14:11):
That's how I feel.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
What I said at the start of calvs. Pacers when
we were doing our preview with Tony East, I said,
I think Indies by far the third best team in
the East. Like I think they are dramatically better than
New York. They actually had a winning record against winning teams.
I don't think the Knicks are that good. I think
the Knicks were a call away from losing in the
first round. Jalen Brown playing on a torn meniscus, porzingis

(14:33):
not being able to breathe, Hateum tearing his achilles, and
Drew Holiday just being old. Like, you know, even if
you look at the shooting data, no team played worse
three point defense than the Knicks against the Celtics. They
gave up when you look at the wide open and
open threes, they were giving up forty eight wide open
threes a game against Boston, Like, sure you know that

(14:55):
that's I if anybody told you that that's how you
beat the Boston se Celtics before the series, I want
to give them a pat on the back. But that's
not how you do it. And I think you've seen
that in this series against Indiana, where you know a
healthy Pacers team is going to pick apart your weaknesses defensively.
And I laugh at Nate Jones tweeting out the other day,

(15:16):
I just think the Knicks need to add another big wing.

Speaker 4 (15:18):
That was some good work out of you.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
Like, honestly, when people talk about adding wings, the apex
examples of three and D wings that you find in
the NBA that are below the All star level, or
Ojan Andobia and mckil bridges.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
They have both of them, and that.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Lineup is giving up a one forty eight defensive rating
against the Indiana Pacers. Know what the Calves starting lineup
gave up as a defensive rating against the Pacers one
oh seven, Like you know it's It's the example everyone
goes to because big wings are the most valuable thing
that you have in the NBA. From a Calves standpoint,
I would love to have a big playmaking wing. That's

(15:55):
why last offseason, when you know the ideas of trading
uh like a Jared Allen trade for someone like Brandon Ingram,
It's risky, but I was open to the idea because
he's a big playmaking wing. Those are so hard to find.
From a Calves standpoint, and really from any NBA team standpoint,
the goal when it comes to team building is find

(16:17):
the best talent that is available to you that you
can actually go out of acquire, that you believe fits
together in a way that allows them to be better
than the su of their parts. And I think that
the Cavs have done a really good job finding the
best talent.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
That's available to them.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
I still think getting over the hump is going to
require them doing some soul searching and finding ways to
be better than the some of their parts.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
And you know why, I know you're right about this
because I watched the Indiana Pacers play Tony Bradley for
fifteen minutes last night, a guy who couldn't play for
the Utah.

Speaker 4 (16:52):
Jazz two years ago.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Like basketball is just not I mean, yes, talent acquisition
is part of it, but so much it is about
the cultural the culture you build, the system you run,
and the way your stars empower everyone to do their
to make their jobs easier. I always go back, I'm
sorry to interrupt you on this, No, I always go
back to what I was saying mid season after they

(17:16):
acquired DeAndre Hunter and he fit in so seamlessly, was
it's easy to play Cavaliers basketball right now, Like if
you're good, if you're good at something, it'll look great
on that Cavs team in February and March. And you know,
the biggest thing that has happened in almost all these
playoff series so far is that it stops looking easy

(17:40):
and fun to play Cavaliers basketball. And to be very reductionist,
I always love our boy Ben Cox, who is a believer,
who is who is a great listen to the pod
and also wishing all the health to Ben. He always
tweets it. Every time things get muddy, he always tweets
they lose because of their often like like and it's

(18:02):
so much of it is that identity. Is that maintaining
of putting pressure on the on defense, Like that's what
you need to do at the end of the day.

Speaker 4 (18:14):
Yeah, and I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (18:15):
And I think, you know, from a team building standpoint too, right,
like we use the core for a shorthand. I do
think that it's important to kind of make a distinction. Like, wait,
when I'm thinking about who the most important members of
the Cavs are, there are two that earned all NBA
honors and one that was just on the fringe that
were All Stars, right, Like I think that Garland, Mitchell
and Mobili that's just it's a half tier above, right.

(18:40):
And Garland and Mobley in particular, they're still young, they're
not even in their primes yet, right, Like Garland's twenty five,
He's starting to get to that point of physical maturity.
Mobley's a couple of years away. But the realities of
you know, the situation that they're in is I just
don't think that there's a one for one trade for
Jared Allen. Like, Jared, you look like next year's salary

(19:02):
sheets on sports track. He's their fifth highest plane player
on the team. Like, it's really hard to find a
one for one swap that's making the cast better. So
I think when I look at how the cast can
get over the hump, right, we understand the internal development parts.
I think we're going to get into kind of some
of those mental toughness aspects, the maturity that needs to

(19:22):
come from this team what they need to do. But
from a you know, roster building standpoint, I'm assuming that
the top six will be back, and the question needs
to be, with limited ability to shake up what the
rotation is, how can we change the way it feels
to play against the Cleveland Cavaliers. And I think that

(19:43):
that question is what needs to be answered when you
look at guys you know, seven through ten in the rotation,
that needs to be the in my opinion, that's the
question that the front office needs to ask themselves is
how do we change either from a schematic standpoint, from
a rotation standpoint, from a person now own standpoint, from
an execution standpoint, what can we do to enhance what

(20:05):
our strengths are and make it feel different to play
against the Calves.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
Yeah, it's spot on. They just have to get better.
And that's why I'm so glad that Kobe really hit
on mental toughness as the sighted leap and mental toughness
being the more important distinction than physical toughness. Yes, you know, uh,

(20:31):
I think that is something that is you know, you
you've made all the all the excellent points that Calvs won,
most of the physical indicators, physical markers from that series
against Cindy. They wanted the offensive rebound battle, they won
in the paint, they wanted the free throw line. You know,

(20:52):
do you want some stats that kind of back up
that point, because go ahead, you know, I do think,
you know, I understand people here during toughness as one
of the main takeaways, right Kobe said, A Donovan SAIDA
Darius said it like it's been the common refrain. I
do think that there's a distinction. Like to me, what
they are talking about when I hear them, you know,
go in depth is mental toughness, it's maturity.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
And I think maturity is the word that I would
use in that instance. But I understand, you know, they
feel frustrated in the moment.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
I get it.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
But people saying, you know, it's the same thing all
over again, it just isn't founded in reality. This is
not the same as two years ago in against the Knicks.
Actually it kind of is a little similar to two
years ago against the Knicks because the New York Knicks
in the five game series against the Calves from an
offensive rebound standpoint, they won seventy five to forty six.

(21:42):
That is a plus twenty nine advantage on the offensive glass.
The Calves versus the Pacers, the Calves had seventy offensive rebounds,
the Pacers had thirty five. That's a thirty five offensive
rebound advantage. The Calves beat up the Pacers on the
offensive glass by a larger margin than they did against
the Knicks did against them two years ago. Do you
want to talk points in the paint? The Calves outscored

(22:05):
the Indiana Pacers two sixty two to two thirty six.
That is a twenty six point advantage and points in
the paint. The Knicks versus the Calves had a sixteen
point advantage. They beat up the Indiana Pacers by more
points in the paint by a larger margin than they
did against the Knicks. So that's offensive rebounds and points
in the paint. And I personally am like, I was

(22:26):
disappointed with how Jared played in Games four and five,
But people focusing on rebounds because it's like, you know,
the gotchas Dad, That's not where the Calves lost the game.
That's not where Jared disappointed me with his performance. To
say it's the same thing as the Knicks is nonsense,
especially for a guy in Jared Allen that averaged seventeen
and fourteen against a much larger, more physical Orlando Magic

(22:48):
team last year before a broken rib. It's nonsense. It's
important to make these distinctions so you don't sound like
a lunatic when you're making these points because the facts
do not line up up with what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, by the way, all those Knicks to Pacers stats
are funny because not only are they good on their own,
it's really hard to do that in a series in
you know, to win those stats in a series you lost,
you know, like to show me where the three point
shooting went? Yeah, no, kids, And also how close.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Some of those games were, right, like the Knicks Honestly,
the Knicks made me feel better because they blew a
larger lead in the last minute than the Calves did
and it wasn't too bs lane violations that the NBA
had to issue an apology the next day. Over that
was a healthy team blowing a larger lead without two
blown calls that if either of those calls went the
other way, it would have been a Calves went So

(23:45):
that that to me made me feel just a little
bit better.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
So, I mean, here's you know, so they did win
most of those physical markers that you know, we count
towards physicality. I do think, in the ent of being
a fair and honest evaluator that there there is physicality
that doesn't show up in the stats. That it was

(24:08):
on the perimeter that still does a good job of
making the Cavaliers play another style of basketball. And I
just think under that duress, uh, the the Calves, especially
their perimeter players, lose he you know, this is where
the mental toughness comes in. Have just lost faith in

(24:30):
what they're What got them there, it was.

Speaker 3 (24:33):
It was on the perimeter, right like, and you know,
maybe my rant was more almost Jarrett specific and kind
of you know, they just get beat up kind of thing.
But yeah, it was on the perimeter and no one
because I do think we need to get into that
and I want to discuss it. But just one thing
I wanted to note that's just a little bit frustrating

(24:55):
to me. And I don't think that there's any agenda
behind this kind of stuff. I just think it's an
inconsistency thing that bothers me. Even if you look at
how you know, each of these conference finals has been officiated.
Game three, walls were allowed a lot more physicality, they
were allowed to play a different way. I would like

(25:15):
to see a more consistent standard of what is what
because Indie playing New York, they're not able to play
Ben Mathrin. Ben Mathrom is a defensive liability, and in
Game one, when he tried to even breathe on Jalen Brunson,
it's called immediately. Whereas COV's players are in mid air
and he's two hands shoving them and it's not even
a foul. Forget a flagrant. Jada McDaniels pushes shay Gilles

(25:38):
Alexander from behind while he is drilling a basketball still
planted on the ground, and it's a flagrant it's a
big deal. It's talked about Obi Top and shoves Donovan
Mitchell with two hands in mid air, and it's not
a flagrant, Like, you know, he's an All NBA player,
you expect him to be protected in the same kind
of way. But it's just frustrating that, you know, what

(25:58):
is considered a foul, what is considered appropriate physicality varies
from game to game and series to series, and it's
just frustrating to see someone like Mathern, who does struggle
on defense, be allowed to to gooon out in the
answer as well, you guys got to get tougher when
you're in mid air, whereas the next series he's not
even allowed to breathe on Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, I mean that's all true, but also.

Speaker 3 (26:21):
It's a better gripe from a Homer fan. It's what
it is, but I need to get it off that.

Speaker 1 (26:26):
I just think it kind of tends to be. You know,
I think some of it you do buy by being
the one who is initiating, you know, and and and
by you know again hitting first, Like we weren't sitting
here talking about Miami getting away with excess physicality against

(26:47):
the Calves because the calves were too busy, either blown
by him in the first place, or or you.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Know, anything of them one on the inside.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
So like you know, some of that stuff is I
under stand that impulse, but like I do think we
need to challenge it because like it's not gonna go
away either, you know, like I was for the most part,
it was just yes, yes, there were a couple of
players I thought were really dirty, but the macro strategy

(27:18):
is not going to stop against this team. Like they've
got two small guards who excel when they have freedom
of movement. Like, uh, like, that's not gonna that's not
gonna stop there. Teams are gonna grab, they're gonna pull,
they're gonna bump, they're gonna they're gonna which is a
fair which is all fair play to me, And it's

(27:40):
exactly what teams are going to do. So again, to
go back to that mental toughness, that's why you do
the oldest crap during the season, to get more diversified,
to play different kinds of lineups, you know, to have
different attack points that bend the defense in different ways,
you know, like that I think I think that's why

(28:00):
I remained so so very disappointed in this team's offense
coming out of that Pacer series, because it's not like
they were the James Harden Rockets, where they ran one
way all season, didn't really practice anything else, didn't try
anything else, didn't build their roster in a way that
allowed for anything else. So yeah, when that gets messed up,

(28:24):
when that system gets skunked up, the offense would crater.
That makes sense, but that's not who this Cavs team
was trying to be. So the fact that that's who
they became. They became a high pick and roll, spam
offense with you know, half the personnel to do that.
You know, they didn't they don't have prime James Harden.

(28:45):
They had Darius Garland on one leg and Donovan Mitchell
on one leg by the end, you know, and and
and all the shooting variants going the other way.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
And like.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
I just I just think they work too hard to
become matchup proof, to make themselves uh uh take take
out able.

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, And I still fundamentally believe that they, you know,
Indy force them into some of these situations, and then
their decision making is what made it so problematic. And
I think you're correct to make that point of points
well taken. Honestly, I think from a cash standpoint, like
that's the number one takeaway from this offseason, right, Like

(29:29):
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Speaker 1 (29:49):
I agree, man, it's does it make you feel better
at all, Like in a sense of like, uh, you know,
not in a like feel good about the loss, but
about the team's future That it's not, you know, like
because I think both of us, you know, I tend
to agree team was good enough, team was healthy enough

(30:10):
to win that series. They didn't because not because of
some fatal flaw in their toughness physically or because they
couldn't keep Miles Turner off the offensive boards for a
free throw attempt, but because they went away from who
they are. Like in some ways, it makes me feel
better because like, hey, you can bring this group back

(30:33):
and trust them to learn good lessons to watch all
this film to you know, learn from a coach that
we really respect in Kenney Atkinson in terms of you know, uh,
you know, they do have a good autopsy to do, right, Yeah,
and we don't need to like we were two years ago,
be like, well, I hope they hit on their signings

(30:54):
and free agency, or we're gonna run this back. Like no,
I do think they run this back and just better play, smarter, play,
more mature basketball. You know, they would go further if
we did this again. Like, does that make you feel
better or conversely, does it make you feel a little
worse about the future of the team, given that that's

(31:17):
a couple of years in a row of this.

Speaker 3 (31:20):
I feel a little better, but not much, because I
do think that the toughest thing to do in the
NBA is talent acquisition, and I think they have the talent.

Speaker 4 (31:28):
To do it.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
What that Indie series showed me if the Cavs were
fully healthy, I don't think their bad habits would have
come up to an extent where they would have lost
the series. I still fundamentally believe that they would have
won in five or six games if you disagree with that,
I respect your opinion. I'm not getting moved off this stance.
I think, especially like those first three games, they could
have won all of them in the condition that they

(31:49):
were currently in. I think that the Cavs would have
won that series. But what that series showed me is
when the talent playing field is leveled, whether that is
you know, a healthy Cells making the conference finals, which
obviously didn't occur, or the Oklahoma City Thunder getting there,
which I think is going to occur, and I think
they are going to smoke whoever comes out of East.
I think the Caves would have got smoked because the

(32:10):
Thunder would be able to do that same thing that
Indiana does with a higher level of talent, with a
higher level of ball pressure, with better defensive players. Like
one of the things I really admire with Indy and
it's something that I want to try to steal from them,
is I think what they are able to accomplish defensively
with the personnel they have far exceeds the defensive talent

(32:32):
that they have on that roster. And I do not
feel that's the case for the Cavs. I think we
play very good base defense with the defensive personnel that
we have. I think that this team can play better
defense than that. So I feel better from that standpoint.
But the reason I don't feel a whole lot better
is because even though I think maturity is something that

(32:54):
you know, anyone can accomplish, I think what they need
to do is things we've already seen them demon straight
in high leverage games. They did really well in a
lot of showcase games, right they show toughness coming back
from Boston. They out executed against OKC and won that
game at home, like they showed it at times. So
it's not something that we've never seen them display. And

(33:15):
I think that that's important. But it's also a very
hard thing to do as well, and it's something that
you either get or you don't. And I thought one
of the more pointing examples that Kobe brought up at
the press conference was look at Miles Turner. Miles Turner,
you know, think back to twenty eighteen when we beat
the Pacers in a series. At that time, it was

(33:35):
Miles Turner is in a playoff performer. He's someone that
you know was in trade rumors at that point. This
is seven years later. Only last year when they made
the conference finals. Did the Miles turners talk like slow down?
But there were still some right, Like, there's still questions
about him as a playoff performer. If he's a big
that you can win with in the playoffs. You look

(33:56):
at the conference finals across the board. That same thing
has been said about to go Bear. That same thing
has been said about Julius Randall, that same thing as
Karl Anthony. That same thing has been said about.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Conference finals for that guy that we all agreed was
a big loser, uh three years ago.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I'm gonna throw an asterisk on it. And you know what, here,
here's the thing, here's the.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Important thing he got there. I'm not throwing as he got.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
As much as I you know, am making the point
that anybody can develop from a maturity standpoint and get
over that hump. I also understand the flip side of that,
because I'm not going to believe in Karl Anthony towns.
I am set in, I am locked in my ways
Like that's it's just fundamentally how I have you basketball.
So if people feel the same way about the Calves,
I understand where you are coming from. But I do

(34:43):
think you know that maturity element that figuring out how
to make things, uh, you know, more consistent from the
regular season to the playoffs is something that requires soul searching,
and I think it requires collaboration because I think Kenny
needs to talk to everybody on the roster and say,
we got away from ourselves. Is there something about how
we were executing from a schematic standpoint that didn't get

(35:06):
that same level of buy in when the pressure was
the highest. Is there something that you would like to
see change?

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Is there something you know from your end, from my end?
I think you know.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
That was one of the things that Kenny talked about
all season long, is how about how he collaborates with
the players. He wants to figure out what does and
doesn't work, and they're going to find that healthy middle ground.
I think that that is really important, and that's the
first thing that they need to do, is you know,
figure out how can I make changes?

Speaker 4 (35:35):
How can I.

Speaker 3 (35:35):
Help support what changes you want to make in yourself
so that we can get to a point where we
are a little more playoff group, where we are able
to execute even if we're a little banged up, because
you know, the level of banged up Donnie was like
that sucks. But that's that's you know, that's playoff wear
and tear. Evan Mobley in a walking boot, DeAndre Hunter
with a dislocated thumb, and Darius with a splint to

(35:58):
put his toe in place. That's that's a little bit different.

Speaker 2 (36:02):
But there are going to be a.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
Real quick there though, because Evan, yes he was hurt,
he he was as effective as Donnie was, you know,
like in terms of I thought his movement was looked,
especially by the time he came. Obviously, missing a game
is crazy, and you know it does it not matter
that he missed a game, but.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
I think the game one like he was not able
to keep up with Sakham with with you know, an
injury that required a walking boot for a little bit
of time, right, And I can I just.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Say what I'm saying is I think he moved, he
played well. You know, I would almost put him in
the Donnie category and put you know, Hunter in Garland
in their own box because Garland could not move and
Hunter couldn't hold the ball.

Speaker 3 (36:52):
Actually, you know, that's a great example because that might
be the type of situation.

Speaker 4 (36:56):
That we're in.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Like Mobile has to miss a game, he come back,
He's working. He's playing through it, like last year he
played through a high ankle spring. This guy's Wolverine, Like,
it's really impressive what he's able to do. Can I
just say I appreciate just from an irony standpoint, Pacers
fans being like, well, yeah, we blew the loss. But
Nie Smith left the game and then he came back
and he wasn't looking one hundred percent. Oh yeah, yeah,

(37:18):
that does actually have an impact on a game, I understand,
but you know, I do think that kind of logic
and m Hard passed up like four open threes in
that game. Game three broke my spirit at Justin and honestly,
that's a lesson. Role players sometimes are going to have
bad games, They're going to have bad series. That's why
I'm not ready to write off Ty Jerome. You look

(37:40):
at Dante di Vincenzo. That guy has had playoff series
where he has been lights out. He has been a
nightmare at various stages of the playoffs, and he has
others where he is two of twenty five, like it's
going to happen. And that's why you always want, as
you call the Pumpkin insurance, right, like you want to
have those options you can go to in the rotation.
I don't think it necessarily says something about how someone

(38:03):
is as a playoff performer. I do say that the
indications of that where you start to have questions is
when guys look like they're not playing their game. If
you are playing your game and you are just shooting poorly,
I can live with that. If you are passing up shots.
If you are, you know, the record scratches when it
gets to you. That's when I start to have concerns.

(38:24):
Man Dante's splitz. By the way, you brought up Dante Divangenzo.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Last year in New York he shot forty two percent
from the field, forty three percent from three on eight
threes a game. Is it twenty eight percent this year?
Just like crazy?

Speaker 3 (38:40):
And I don't think it means he's not a playoff performer.
He did it last year. But like this kind of
variance happens. That's why you need your stars to be
your stars, and that's why you need to have the
depth to make up for it. Okay, see was able
to bench lou Doorda times, who despite how great he is,
you know, defensively, he's had some nightmare offensive series where
you know, even okay, see beat guys are like, hey,

(39:01):
I don't know if we can survive the lou Dort minutes,
Like there's going to be serious. I wouldn't be surprised
if he's one of their most impactful players in the
finals when they get there, because I still think that.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
They're going to get there.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
But you know, like that kind of variance happens with
role guys. I don't think it necessarily needs to be
an indictment of them. I don't think it's a reflection
of whether or not they're playoff guys. But you need
your stars to be your stars, and in the cave standpoint,
finding out how to maximize those guys is one of the.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Most important guys figuring out how to maximize themselves.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Yeah, and honestly one of the kind of moments of
reflection that I've had in this time off. And I
want to get your thoughts on this. Do you think
we glossed over the calves going away from Mobili a
bit too much in the season because it was working
like they were such a good clutch team, But there
were times where in the clutch Mobley's not getting the shots.

(39:54):
Mobley would have a twenty point quarter and we go
away from him in the second half. The outcomes were
so good that I think from a process standpoint, we
should have been pointing out, you know, Mobley isn't always
getting the consistent touches that we expect if he's going
to be that guy we rely on in the playoffs.
To me, I feel like there are just too many

(40:15):
opportunities where, you know, when we have a rolling we
win in the clutch most clutch Wednesday in the NBA
this season, Donovan and Darius are so good that we're
just happy about the outcome and we weren't being buzzkills
about the process because I feel like too many times
Mobley kind of got cut out of that equation, and

(40:35):
I think that that was something that we saw in
the regular season that translated to the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
Do you agree, I might agree. I just checked the
average five point eight field goals per game in the
first half, of field goal attempts per game in the
first half five point one in the second half. Oh,
that's the playoffs. Sorry, hold on, hold on, it's annoying.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Filter. It's happened to me a few too many.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Yeah, they're killing me, man, Yeah, but either way, so
you know, putting that wrong stat aside apologies five point
eight the second half and seven point one in the
first half, so there you go. In the regular season,
so it was even more right.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
And also in twenty three clutch games this season, Mobile
averaged zero point six field goal attempts in the clutch.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
So all that to say, I think that stat might
matter more to me than the stat about, you know,
their the clutch, because the clutch is its own messy thing.
It's hard to get bigs touches in clutch situations. I remember,

(41:54):
I mean even when I was like ten years old,
I remember being like, likers never find shack in the clutch.
It's like, well, yeah, because it's really hard to get
an entry pass when guys are getting grabbed, pulled, et cetera.
And I'm fine with Darius and Donovan doing the doing
the high pick and roll initiation. What I'm most of
them average fewer than two shots as well, which I
think is important context to zero points. But I'm fine

(42:16):
with them being the lead initiators in the clutch because
it just makes more sense that you're gonna be able
to do that more consistently, like more often than not
sure thet the pendulum can swing. I'm fine with that,
but like it's only going to swing so far. I
think what's more disappointing is that first half second half
attempt split where it's just like kind of no matter what,

(42:40):
no matter how close or far the game is, they
just kind of stop looking to Evan once they stop
having you know, once they leave having like been primed
to do so in the first half. And I think
maybe that is the bigger problem. Uh, And like, yeah,
I just so like I don't think it's a clutch problem.

(43:02):
It's a it's a it's just a it's a focus problem.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:10):
I think it's almost, Hey, we understand that Evan Mobley
is going to need to take the leap for us
to be to win a championship.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
He needs to be that guy.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
And I don't think that means they know that, like
why that's that's my point is I think they all
know that, but it's ingraining. Hey, we need to do,
like we have to dedicate the season to helping him
get there. And I think you know, what we saw
from Mobley was the result of the work that he.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Put in the offseason.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
The handle was tighter, the shot was better. He was
more assertive with the opportunities that he got, But it
wasn't the focal point of Hey, we got to keep
attacking with Mobley. Like honestly, I thought the Miami series,
like he the touches that Mobley got versus Miami were
fewer than indeed, Like, he wasn't like, oh, we were
using mobile and then when the pressure of Indie hit,

(44:02):
you know, we went away from it. It was, hey,
you know, things are flowing. We're not even going to
really use this as an opportunity for Mobili to you know,
keep attacking. It's just, hey, everything's working right, Like Darius
is averaging twenty four game ties, shooting the lights out
that the bench took off in the games in Miami.
Like I feel like, use, one of the things they're

(44:23):
going to need to do next season is, hey, we're
going to have to figure out if we can sink
or swim with Evan Mobley.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
And he might not get.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
There next year, but we're going to do absolutely everything
that we can to try to get him there and
to always make sure that he is involved offensively. Like
I think, from a touches standpoint, he's the leader of
the team. If you look at the regular season stats
in terms of front court touches, he led the team
with twenty eight per game, followed by Darius and then

(44:51):
Jarrett was actually third in front court touches.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
And can you define front court touches for the listeners
and me who always forgets exactly what it means.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
It means when the first time you receive the ball,
when you make the catch, it is initiated in the
front court. So you know, if someone brings up the
ball from the back court or you know the overall
touches they're bringing the ball up, that's not going to
count as a possession that was initiated in the front court.
So that's receiving the ball in the half court. I
think it's valuable there. And it also goes to show

(45:20):
you how they tried to move use Donovan off ball
last year, right because he was the leading scorer, but
he's behind Darius and Allen when it comes to those
front court touches. When it goes to the playoffs, it
was a twenty five percent decrease in Mobley's front court touches.
It was down to twenty one. That just can't happen,
man like he was behind. Mitchell was the leader, Max

(45:41):
Struce was a second on the team. Then it was Jared,
then it was Garland. Oh no, sorry, it was Mitchell
and Strews ahead. Then it was Alan and Garland after that.
So Darius fell all the way down to fifth kind
of makes sense, particularly with.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Those indie games.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
They were moving him off ball us than this man
like Obi top and yeah, like it's I think to me,
the most important thing isn't going to be the number
of field goal attempts for Evan Mobiley. It's how involved
he is offensively. I don't care like obviously, I want
to see him aggressive. I want to see him as
sert of offensively and attacking guys and not passing up opportunities.

(46:20):
But I want him to be that focal point man
like I want. I think Darius, you know, leading the
team from an ission and an offense standpoint. That makes sense, Donovan.
It's a few years in a row here, with the
exception of the New York years, but even going back
to Utah, there's always some nagging lower body thing come playoffs,

(46:41):
and I don't think I think some of that is
bad luck, Like it's landing and rolling your ankle. Stuff
like that just kind of sucks. Sometimes it's been hamstrings
and things like that. But from you know, a managing
the load standpoint, getting Donovan Mitchell to the playoffs healthy
and keeping him healthy for a playoff run is one
of the most important things to me because I think

(47:01):
that he is that special score that we need at those.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
Moments in the postseason.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
I think he absolutely brings that to the table. So
from my standpoint, the solution to managing Donovan's load in
the regular season, where he already was coming off you know,
a career low in minutes and usage is We're still
going to use you as our primary play finisher. We're
still going to get you these off ball opportunities, but
we are giving more touches where we are giving more

(47:27):
creation burden to Heaven Mobley because we think that that
is going to be how we can beat these playoff defenses.
This is how we can make our offenses more playoff proof,
and this is how we can beat some of that
pressure that teams are going to throw at a smaller backcourt.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Yeah, what I would say is I actually am not
that interested in Donovan's load management. In the regular season.
I don't think it could be. It's not going to
be much less than it was no this year.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
What I would.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
Propose, though, is that you just continue to manage his
load stylistically into the playoffs, you know, by continuing to
play the way you played all regular season. You know, like,
like it's I want Donovan to be able to go
ballistic for six minutes at a time like he did

(48:16):
in Game two against Miami, you know, but you play
Cavs basketball until you got to break that class like
they've you know, in the last two postseasons, whether it
be due to injury or you know, that lack of consistency,
it's been Donovan's gonna do this, try to try to

(48:36):
do a forty forty minute night where he puts up,
you know, forty five shots, and like, I just can't.
That can't be the plan to start the game. And
by the way, you mentioned the mobile thing that it's
not about shot attempts, it's about touches.

Speaker 4 (48:51):
You're right.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
But what I will argue is that if he's getting
the touches that he's supposed if he's not getting the
touches that we want him to get, it is impossible
for him to get up to twenty field goal attempts.

Speaker 2 (49:05):
Yeah, you don't.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Rudy Gobert doesn't have a lot of twenty field goal
attempt games, you know, just being a role man and
a dunker spot lurker. Like, let's be honest, if the
touches increase, the field goal attempts are going to increase, That's.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
What I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
And how the touches, you know, are, you know, present themselves.
If he's getting elbow touches, he's gonna get more chances
to post up, to score, to drive, did to shoot,
to whatever it is. You know, you just only get
so much being a pure dive man or a pure
dunker spot guy or a pure spacer like you have
to actually be involved in the core of the offense.

(49:42):
You know, it's really hard for DeAndre Hunter to get
up to twenty shot attempts if he's not, you know,
being worked towards. And that's a guy who has no
problem shooting. Yeah, I got a question for you.

Speaker 3 (49:58):
This was brought up a in our discord, and initially
I think I may have brushed it off to some extent,
and as I've sat with it more, I think it's
a valid question to ask should the Cavs try to
be a higher passing team next year because they were
a very high assist team last year. They were near

(50:19):
the top of the league when it came to you know,
assisted field goals and things like that. But from a
pass his main standpoint, they were twenty eighth with two
sixty seven per game. The Indiana Pacers were second in
the NBA with three hundred and thirty. So we're talking
about about a seventy pass difference. If do you think
that there's some value in Hey, we're going to reduce

(50:41):
how much Darius and Donovan are asked to create on
ball and to try to beat the kind of pressure
that these longer teams are going to throw at you.
By the pass, we are going to find Evan Mobley
earlier on whether that is you know, if teams are
throwing full court pressure, we're going to use Evan Mobley
to help break that press. We are going to find
him earlier, going to get the ball moving and then

(51:01):
they were going to attack a destabilized defense after the fact.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Do you think that.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
There's some value you know, I don't think they need
to be you know, that high up. I think the
passing efficiency that they had was phenomenal, and when you
are a lower passing team, it's going to make you
one of the better turnover teams in the NBA, which
the Cavs were. So there is, you know, pros and
cons when it comes to both of this. But I
do think, you know, I think back to high school,

(51:27):
where you know, our coach had the quickest dribbler on
the team, try to go full court. It was like,
all right, let's time that. See how fast that was.
And then the second time he had him do the drill,
he threw a pass the length of the court to
someone that was running without the ball, and he's like,
see how much faster that is. I feel like one
of the ways you can beat pressure is by getting
the ball out of your hands as you see the

(51:48):
pressure coming, and using guys like Evan Mobley and other
front court players to help break that pressure that we
see teams use.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
I maybe it's an interesting thought, discord passing isn't necessarily
indicative of success. It's important to say there. Golden State
and Andy lead the league in passing. The next four teams,
the Chicago Bulls, the Phoenix Suns, the Brooklyn Nets and
the Toronto Raptors, then the Washington Wizards as the as

(52:20):
the lucky number five. So I don't think they're there
with us. They're like they're twenty sixth. They have two
more passes per game yep. And you know, so like
there's and then you look at the bottom of the league.
Houston a very good team, Dallas, you know, at their best,
a pretty good team, the Clippers, the Pistons, the thunder
the Celtics, the Grizzlies, the Bucks. Like, you know, the

(52:43):
pedigree on one side of that spectrum seems a lot
better than the other. And I do think one of
the things that I liked about the Cavs because they
were I want to say fourth or fifth last year,
and passes per game checking right now they were fifth.
I you know, I do feel like some of those
passes were the the old habit that I hated, which was,

(53:06):
you know, letting perfect be the enemy of good. M
Like the Calves this year put so much pressure on
teams by having so many guys feeling empowered to catch attack,
you know, And I don't really want that to go
away just because they stop playing that way in the
regular in the postseason because they stopped playing a diverse

(53:28):
attack that empowered a bunch of dudes to play that way.
And like, that's where I always go back to the
you know what lessons you choose to learn from, And
I'm not sure that's where my attention is focused right now,
I guess is what I'm what I'm saying, I just
want I want them to attack in the ways that

(53:49):
I saw them do it all regular season, Like I
want them to be.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
Better than that. I want.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Like from an Evan mobile involvement standpoint, I think that
it needs to be better than it was through the
regular seas, and I think it needs to be a
more consistent feature. And I just I just found that
topic interesting because I do think it ties into mobile
because he is such an intelligent passer. Both of our
bigs really do kind of excel in that category. Max

(54:16):
excels it as a front court option there. I just
think using them to break the press is very important.
I just I guess it's almost a little reductive, but
I think we need to, you know, in circling back
to talking about the Core four and how you know mobile,
Garland Mitchell, They're just from a level of importance standpoint.

(54:40):
I think they're just ahead of Jared with all due
respect to honestly deserved ALSAR consideration last year, but you know,
it was on the outside looking and I do think
you almost have to take a Big three approach to
some extent, and they do that to some extent where
Jared is, you know, feeding off of them. It's not
someone that you're designing a lot of touches for. But

(55:01):
I think I really want to see the importance of
Edvan Mobley and the consistency of Evan Mobley being used
in the offense to increase whether that is as a playmaker,
whether that's as a score just making sure that that
is a continued point of emphasis, because I don't think
we're getting to the mountain top unless Evan Mobley is
ready to get there. And I don't think you. I
don't think that those habits are going to be in

(55:24):
the right place in the playoffs if you are not
dedicating to yourself to that all regular season. And I
think that was one of the things we saw in
the regular season that translated to the playoffs. It just
resulted in losses in the playoffs, whereas in the regular
season we glossed over it because we got wins. You
got to stop treating Evan Mobley like he's Kevin Love.

(55:44):
We're giving him, you know, his first quarter touches to
get the stats, and then we go away from him
the rest of the game. He needs to be part
of the Cavs ecosystem offensively consistently when he's on the court.

Speaker 4 (55:56):
That I will not argue with. Brother.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
It does feel like that's going to be my big
story of the year is just like anything that doesn't
serve that because like, I just feel like I've seen
the I've seen too many times the limitations of the
guard focused attack.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Like and it only works. The only examples in NBA
history where these shorter back courts end up winning is
when they have the front court initiation. We've been saying
it for years. Draymond was that guy for Stephan Jordan Poole,
I know, you know, Jordan Poole's an inch taller than
Donovan Mitchell. He's a much worse defender than Donovan Mitchell.
He doesn't have the wingspan of Donovan Mitchell. Darius is

(56:35):
an inch shorter than Steph Curry. I understand that, but
he has a taller standing reach than Steph. He has
a longer wingspan than Steph. Like, I think that that
is you know, if height is the only thing you're
talking about, I think that that is a valid example.
If your counter to that is, well, yeah, Steph's great,
I would say, oh, so you know, talent is part
of the equation and it's not just about height. So

(56:56):
you know, maybe these comparisons about other short back courts
aren't one to one, but I think that's As an
example Toronto, when Fred Van Vliet and Kyle Lowry were
playing fifteen to twenty minutes per game together at five
to eleven, they won because they had Marcusol and Kawhi
Leonard that could help break the pressure in the front court.
All the examples you see had that front court playmaking

(57:19):
heaven Mobiley needs to be that guy. It's the point
we've hammered home and I think when we look at
the off season, that is the number one thing that
I think we need to talk about. And you know,
it has to be part of you know, on the
Cavs radar to change.

Speaker 4 (57:34):
Yes, it does.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Brother, It's gonna be a long off season because you know,
so much of that isn't you know, isn't something that
you can transaction your way to. They just have to
you know, they have to realize it. They have to
believe in it and internalize it in a way that
that is really meaningful. And I do think like as

(57:55):
we get through the off season, as we kind of
hit the end of this pod, we are going to
you know, uh, I think we've spent a lot of
time talking about the things we wouldn't do. I do
think we have things we believe in changes that we
would make too, you know, a little further down the
line in terms of what styles of players were interested
in filling out the roster and what styles of players

(58:18):
we want to see in the rotation moving forward. So
I do want to, like in the pod with with
something you know, maybe a bit of a teaser looking
forward of like you know, we are we don't want
pure status quo and just give the ball to Evan Moore.
You know, we do want to see some changes. It's just, uh,
you know, I do think this was an important maybe
a level to set for this podcast particular discourse. Yeah,

(58:42):
And I honestly I messaged you two days ago where
I'm like, I feel like this podcast might go on
for two hours because I was planning on talking about,
you know, let's look at the rotation. Let's look at
you know, those guys seven through ten, how they're being used,
how they were used in the regular season, how they
were using the playoffs, what changes we'd like to see there.
That was part of my rundown for this yere podcast.

(59:02):
But we got a lot of weeks of off season
basketball to talk about. It's done in two hours in
late May. Let me tell you, brother, now we.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Need to spend you know, space these out. We're already
at an hour here. We can touch on those changes
to the rotation that we need to see. But I think,
you know, the important takeaway is one this Cavs corps
has the talent to do what they need to do.
It's about finding that maturity and finding the ways that
empower them to be more than the some of their parts,
which I still do not think that they have managed

(59:33):
to be that yet. I think they have played up
to that.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
Level of town.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
I think they were a fantastic regular season team, but
they still need to find those ways to be more
than the some of the parts. So we will continue
to dive into what's going to help make that a
healthier ecosystem for the calves, how they can take that
next step and you know, contend for a championship next season.
Unfortunate that this was the you know, the first season
where they didn't meet those expectations that we had going

(59:59):
into the season. But these types of things happen and
we will see how the Cavs respond to it. Big
thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube. Really appreciate
you guys. Make sure you'll like and subscribe. Click that
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(01:00:21):
review to Chase Downpot at gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it.
Sure you guys are staying safe out there.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Until next time, Go Cavs.