The 50-10 Club

Justin and Carter recap a weekend of comeback wins for the Cleveland Cavaliers. Breaking down the win over the Portland Trailblazers, fueled by the former Virginia Cavaliers. Before diving into what we've learned and what we're yet to learn when it comes to the matchup against the Boston Celtics. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises to it speeding. What Carlos slam it?
Oh Carlo left wing free ball perfect, Darlint pop the
half block, the shot at the rim? How with the
left hand? And of fowl.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Chase Down Podcast, part of the Caves
Media family. I'm your hostess Roan. The Chase Down is
presented by Fubo, official streaming partner of the Calves. Watch
over three hundred and fifty channels of live sports and TV,
including fan Duel Sports Network without cable. There's no cost
and no commitment. Try for free at foobotv dot com
Slash Calves. The Cleveland Cavaliers now have their third double
digit winning streak of the season thanks to two come

(00:38):
from behind wins against the Boston Celtics and the Portland Trailblazers.
Joining me today is my co host, Carter Rodriguez. Carter,
how you doing, Buddy? I'm doing all right, bro. Uh,
you know, just uh working out some kinks with a
new computer. So my bad UMU. But uh, you know,
obviously it feels really good. The Calves haven't had a
tremendous amount of ugly wins this year, you know that

(01:03):
just kind of hasn't been what's factored into their year
so far. And it's honestly kind of stunning that, you know,
it's taken this long to even have like two or
three of them where it's like a game where nothing's
going right against the Blazers, you know, a huge come
down from a from a huge win in Boston on
Friday night and they have to got one out. Like

(01:25):
I mean, we talk about that twenty eighteen team that
won like eight nine, ten in a row to start
the year, and like eight of those ten were hideous
and they were went in but it didn't feel great,
Like we really haven't had a lot of those this year,
and like it does feel like a super validating weekend
for the Cavs between this and a resounding comeback against

(01:49):
the Boston Celtics. Yeah, and this felt like a perfect
storm for a potential letdown game against the Portland Trail Blazers,
who are not only coming off an incredibly emotional victory
over the Boston Celtics, you're also dealing with it being
an afternoon game. We have seen weird things tend to
happen with those afternoon games. It's a quicker turnaround time,
No Donovan Mitchell in this game, that's obviously going to

(02:12):
make things.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
A little tougher for them.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
And even though it displayed all the classic signs of
it potentially being a trap game, I was really hoping
it wasn't because I was sitting here hoping that we
could spend the majority of this podcast talking about the
Celtics game because that's who we're measuring ourselves against. And
trust me, we will be getting into that Celtics game.
I have a lot of thoughts from it. But because

(02:37):
this game was so dramatic against the Blazers, we obviously
have to start there, and I think the clearest starting
point for that game is DeAndre Hunter, who still has
not had a twenty point game for the Cleveland Cavaliers.
He just happened to have a thirty point one with
thirty two points and seven rebounds, just on a night
where everything felt a little herky jerky, where guys were

(03:01):
a little less predictable than their normal predictable cells. Hunter
is just that steady presence. You know what he's going
to bring on every single possession, and I really felt
like the stability that he was bringing was almost as
big as the shots.

Speaker 1 (03:16):
He was hitting. Yeah, Well, there's just something to the
size and the play style profile that kind of makes
his game, I don't know, easy, and like it just
didn't require a lot of the surrounding context to be
that good to be doing what he did. You know,
it was walking to catch and shoot threes, it was

(03:39):
attack closeouts and draw fouls and then you know, just
guard on the other end of the floor. Like, I
just didn't feel like he had to. I don't know.
Obviously he took on a greater usage load than he's
taken on thus far in his CAP's tenure, but it
didn't feel like a, well, I've got to go run

(04:02):
thirty pick and rolls because Donovan's not in the game, Like,
and that used to kind of beat Carris's job, and
like that's kind of our best frame of reference for
when Donnie is out is all right, now Carris will
step in and kind of run the offense a little bit.
Hunter didn't do that. He just did his what he's
been doing more, yeah, at a higher volume.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
Right, And I think that was the point that I
was going to make about how when Carris was playing
in these spots, it could kind of go either way, right,
Like there were the games where and I think more
often than not, when one of the guards was out,
he would step up and he would have a big impact.
But on some of those nights where you know, Darius

(04:43):
is having a terrible game against Portland, like kennot hit
any of his shots, any of his floaters and the
normal stuff that he hits on a routine basis, it
wasn't going down. Even when they showed him, you know,
getting those shots up in the timeout, I think he
won won a three on those Like you know it,
Sometimes it's just not your night, and you know, some
credit to him for sure for continuing to battle through that.

(05:05):
But on a night where Darius wouldn't have it going,
you know, evan up and down game moments where he
looked great, other times where he was a little out
of control and just nobody was really bringing that consistency
to the table, I felt like sometimes Kars would get
sucked into that, like he would almost feed off of
that energy and it would become more chaotic. Whereas in

(05:26):
this spot you had Ty Jerome once again step up
with one of those guards out and DeAndre Hunter, as
you said, not playing outside of himself, but just cranking
up the volume on what he already does so well.
And I think that that is one of the huge
benefits of you know, this situation where we're sitting here

(05:47):
with fifty wins through sixty games, because we have so
much depth, because we have, you know, four guys that
are probably top thirty players in the league at the
very least, you know, we have three top twenty four
because we had three all starts. And when you take
DeAndre Hunter from you know, kind of number three rolled

(06:07):
in Atlanta to number five in Cleveland, where oh, if
someone you know, Jared Allen having an off game against Boston,
we can put DeAndre in and we can expect a
little more from him in this spot because he is
overqualified to be a fifth man. When you have that
kind of luxury and you have the supporting depth around them,

(06:28):
it is just going to help you have an insane
flour when it comes to the regular season. But not
only that, it's going to increase your margin for error
when you're playing a top team like the Boston Celtics.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, man, I said this. I went on Bob Manning's
Celtics show on Saturday night or Saturday afternoon, and I
did just say that before the Hunter trade, I felt
like there was no lineup context in which I would
be really cool with benching Jared out. I just I

(07:04):
really did pretty steadfastly believe that no matter what the matchups,
pretty much no matter what the form was, the best
shot was going to be with Jared at the five
and Evan at the four. And what Hunter has done
is give any a real legit high upside option on
nights where one of the two biggest doesn't have it,

(07:25):
one of the two bigges in foul trouble, whatever it
may be, he just doesn't have to do anything. And
that's really important. Yeah, it's really, really, really damn important.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
And you know, I probably would have liked to have seen,
you know, I understand going with Max in the starting lineup,
I would have liked to have seen some minutes with
the core for and DeAndre Hunter against the Boston Celtics. Like,
just from an experimenting standpoint, I guess the first time
that's going to occur is going to be in the
playoffs if it does in fact occur. But having that

(07:57):
versatility I think is really big, and Ken talked about
it postgame after this win over the Blazers, where I
forget who asked the question, but you know a very
good question. Oh it was our buddy Mike Lucas Ultimate
Cleveland Sports Show asked, Hey, this is the second time
now where you've kind of closed the fourth quarter with
Jared on the bench, and Kenny said, yeah, teams are

(08:20):
putting some pressure on us. They're really downsize and they
have three or four guards out there, and that just
requires a different kind of you know, mobility from a
defensive standpoint and having the flexibility to do that where
you know, Jarrett was not having a strong game against Boston.
I thought he was playing pretty well tonight against Portland,
but just hey, the matchup is a little tricky. We

(08:43):
are able to kind of CounterPunch. We are able to,
you know, kind of dare you to go big because
if we are our scale down lineup contains somebody that
we were comfortable giving some small ball five minutes in
this game.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, I gotta say I'm a little worried about Jared's hand.
You know, he's still wearing that rap on it. And
you know this is not a source reporter or anything
like that. I just have noticed there's a few times
where he's tapping the ball to his other hand. Yeah,
he even had that very the shot that went in,
but he had like a fifteen foot left handed floater,

(09:18):
and I just I work I had.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
Some incredible left handed finishes. There was the one against
Boston where it was a lob and he just kind
of deflected it in. He had that nice touch one
where Darius found him underneath the basket. Definitely notice like
he's shown the floater with the left even prior to this,
but it feels like he's going to it just a
little bit more. And I think you're seeing it sometimes
in those contested rebound situations where he's just not securing

(09:41):
it the way that he was even a couple of
weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, and also it just I've also noticed it does
short circuit the finishing just a little bit, you know.
So I'm definitely keeping my eye on that. I know
Jared's goal was to play all eighty two and we'll
see if he can do it. But yeah, that it
just does jump out at me just a little bit
that that they have gone without him the last two games,

(10:08):
understand most importantly, gone without him at all, even in
line ups without Evan. Yeah, that is not something that
they've ever done before. And I don't know if that's
a we like it and Hunter and Wade we think
is enough length in the front court to survive, or

(10:28):
if it's we feel we have to right the second.
But I do think it there is keeping an eye on.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
You know, it might fall into category three of we
want to see if we're able to like, you know,
let's you know, let's try some stuff, right. I think
that's important to keep in mind where I think we
saw playoff like intensity from Cleveland and Boston in these
last couple of matchups and honestly every game that they've
played this season. I feel like both teams have really
got up for those games. But I would expect both

(10:58):
sides have a something that they're holding back that they
didn't show, you know, during the regular season that there
may go to in the playoffs, whether it be Kenny
changing up how he's going to counter Boston defensively, what
types of looks he anticipates thrown at.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Like, I feel like we've played.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
A very kind of normal regular season rotation for the
most part against the Celtics. Now you're not going to
do you know, Craig Porter Junior in that matchup, but
he still did go very deep within the rotation, and
I don't know if that's going to continue in the playoffs.
I don't know what changes are going to be there.
So I think it's important to have that caveat. But
you know, maybe there is some element at least of Hey,

(11:39):
Jared's at like eighty five percent right now, let's see,
let's see if we can play Dean and Hunter as
our loan bigs when Boston's going really small here with
you know, six nine Al Horford and a bunch of
guards and wings.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, And I mean Hunters is holding up.
He had seven boards in this one, seven important boards.
I thought he battled down the stretch as Portland kept
counter punching and attacking the glass and trying to attack
and transition and just you know, be the more chaotic team.

(12:17):
I thought they did a great job of just being like, nope,
we're gonna in this. These possessions where they where they end.
And you know, again, it was not a clean game
by any means, but like it just goes back to
I mean your Virginia Cavaliers, Ties Rome and DeAndre Hunter
just went won you the game because Darius never really
got into the game. Max didn't have a particularly clean game.

(12:41):
They were fouling like absolute crazy. Barland had four stru
said five hundred had four mobilely fouled out, which never happened. No,
Like it's just one of those games, man, And you
know that was part of why I felt like they
were going to lose it. Like even when they cut
it to ten to start the fourth, I was like,
maybe there's a chance. But when you have you know,

(13:02):
seventy free throws between the two teams, that's just going
to lead to a choppy game where it's really tough
to find a rhythm. And I thought Portland deserves a
lot of credit. They played really hard, They have a
lot of length and their ass off.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yes, I think they won fourteen of their last nineteen
games coming into that game, so you know they've been
playing really good basketball. There's someone that you know is
almost tailor made to get you in one of these
early afternoon games where you're coming off an emotional win.
So they deserve a ton of credit. Tomorrow, Kamara, it
was fantastic and he had a great game. There's there's

(13:38):
a lot to like with that Portland group. So I
don't want to take anything away from them. But yeah,
Darius did not have it going at all. That steal
that he had at the end of the game may
have really impacted the outcome there because that was a
fast break opportunity for Portland. But that was actually one
of the few times that I've seen this season where
it felt like he recognized he didn't have it going

(14:00):
and went passive. And I don't think that's necessarily a
good thing, but it seemed like he was not even
trying to get those shots up down late. I felt like,
you know, he created some looks for guys, he was
able to turn the corner offensively, but he just didn't
seem to have confidence in his shot. I don't know
if that's you know, working his way back from the hip,
this is a short turnaround time from Boston not feeling right,

(14:24):
or if this was just one of those games where
he didn't have your shot going, which certainly happens, but
definitely one of his worst offensive games of the season.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, I mean, he still got up sixteen shots. It's
not like he went full passive, but like he definitely
was letting letting Tye be the run the offense down
the stretch, of the game. But the counter to that,
of course, is ty was the best player on the
court for a lot of the game, and Tye was unbelievable.

(14:54):
So like it. You know, I'm hesitant ing him too
hard for that. In fact, it's funny that you ing
him a little bit, because I was going to go
the other way, where I go, Hey, you don't have it.
It's freaking March second against the Blazers. You don't need
to prove anything to anyone, just just whatever is the

(15:15):
best road to getting them to a win. I do
think Tye running a lot of pick and roll was
their best road to a win in that game.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
No, I think that's a very valid point. I just
wanted to kind of highlight that that that's been unique, right, Like,
I don't think we've seen that a whole lot this year,
even against Boston. One of the things I really enjoyed
was he was assertive. He took those shots late, right,
He hit that three to make it a six point game,
and then hit that dagger step back that basically ice

(15:43):
the win against the Celtics. He was not afraid of
the moment in that spot. So I don't know if
it was just one of those nights where he didn't
have it going. But it was definitely a tough night
for him. But before we get into to Boston, is
there any other things you want to highlight with this
Portland game?

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Just? I mean, Ty was a demon man, he was
he was so good physical. Uh, he got the you know,
him and Hunter got nineteen combined free throw attempts, and
Cavs role players just haven't been like you don't normally
see two Cavs role players combined for nineteen free throw
attempts in a game. You know, it's just not really

(16:21):
been their style. You know, the four, the core four
typically eat such a big minutes load that it's hard
to get there from even from a usage perspective. But
I thought, you know, they they probably won the game
with those nineteen free throws because in a game where
nothing nothing's easy. And by the way, even in this

(16:42):
hideous game, they end up at forty one point three
percent from three. So I don't know, man, I guess
they'll just they just can't. They can't be too bad
at shooting, uh, for for for too long. But yeah,
I just thought Jerome was a was just yet another
example of and being an absolute murderer for this team

(17:03):
every time they need him to be. Every time they're like, Hi, yeah,
they're just gonna comar on you, but just figure it out,
Like figure it out, get get to the rim. He
had a couple nasty cross court passes out of the
pick and roll. You know, I thought he had a
really really great game as a playmaker. He had six

(17:25):
assistant one turnover, and when you pair that with these
six justin count them six steals, a career high. Uh.
It just felt like a really dominant floor game for him,
and they needed someone to be an event player, and
he probably had. Hunter had the best scoring game. I

(17:46):
felt like Jerome had the loudest game.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, And you know, we've talked about how we stepped
up in those games without Donovan or without Darius at
times when with.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
The way Darius was shooting, it felt like neither of
them were out there right.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
So for him to to step up in that way
in a night where we really needed it, I thought
was significant. Only other thing that I kind of had
noted from this game was I still like just fundamental
basketball philosophy. I don't love the foul up three, at
least when there's over ten seconds left. I think if

(18:20):
you're down in the final seven seconds and a team
is drawing up something on the sideline, foul there. But
particularly where you know they used up their last time
out to advance the ball and didn't have an opportunity
to call it and get a shot up, but then
a regulation. That's just one of those little things where
I understand what the numbers say, but just from a

(18:40):
philosophical standpoint, I don't love the timing with that much
time left in the game.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah, it feels it has felt a little bit like
we're doing a thing we don't do that often. You know,
it's not you watch some teams foul up three and
it feels it feels really hard for the other team
to account for. And I feel like when the Cabs
have done it, it's felt like like a thing they

(19:08):
weren't doing last year. You know.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
It's just it doesn't probably feel even weirder because we're
never within one possession at the end of a game,
like that's happened like four times this year.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
Yeah, so like they don't have a ton of practice
doing it. Uh and uh, and yeah, it's just been
a little rough. Last thing I'll say about this game
because I noticed that you're wearing it too. Shout out
to Nick Gilbert. Uh. It was bow tie night for
the Cabs and uh, you know, a cool night honoring
their memory, a great great appearances from the Gilbert family

(19:39):
on the on the broadcast talking about kind of Nick's legacy. Uh,
you know, the all the work they're doing to cure
an f And I just wanted to shout out the
Gilbert family because you know, even on a night that's
celebrating a loved one that's passed away, it's still a
hard heavy thing to kind of deal with. So send
in love uh to the boss man and UH. And

(20:01):
I hope their family is doing doing good uh through
who it was probably a tough day for them.

Speaker 2 (20:06):
Yeah, to totally agree with that. I appreciate you uh
making note of that. And you know, it's great to
get a win. It's great to get a win on
that night. I forget what the matchup was last year,
but this is the third annual UH bow Tige night, UH,
and absolutely we had to rock the pins for that,
and you know, it's good to keep the good vibes going.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Man.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
I mentioned that at the top of the podcast. But
third double digit winning streak of the season. That's nuts.
Nobody else in the Eastern Conference has one of those
this season.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah. I saw someone I forget who tweeted. I think
I retweeted it, but uh they said, uh it was
uh it was Calves Jack on Twitter. I don't know
if this is real. Didn't vet this, but he said
before the season the Caves had had five ten plus
game winning streaks and franchise history. They have three this
season alone. Absolutely bonkers. I don't know if that's true.

(21:02):
It sounds true, it sounds right. I mean, these are
pretty rare, so the fact that they've done it this
many times just bananas. And can I share that year
with of course? Mark Stein shared this on a substack
just before we recorded. But Boston is currently since the
start of last year, sixty four and three when they
lead by twenty in a game. Two of those three

(21:25):
losses have come against your Cleveland Cavaliers. Oh yeah, brother, Yeah,
I just think the season's been unbelievable. And we'll dive
into the Boston stuff with the back half of the pod.
And because there was I think that's the much more
noteworthy game. Yeah, but I just cannot believe this team
is fifty and ten. Dude, that's a banana stat. I mean,

(21:48):
you know, the the Phil Jackson club is like forty
wins before twenty losses. How about fifty wins before eleven.
It's it's absolutely bananas. I updated this stat going after tonight.
I tweeted out a little while ago, updated tonight calves
I've had two rough stretches this season, and rough and

(22:10):
parent and quotation marks not even that rough. Mid mid
November to end of November they lost three out of five,
and then mid January to the end of January they
lost five out of eight. The rest of the year,
they are forty five and two. Seems pretty good.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
And you know, it's easy to get caught up on
the Cavs larger aspirations for this season, right like, particularly
coming off that Boston game, I couldn't help but think
that next time we see this team is going to
be the Eastern Conference Finals, and I will continue to
speak that into existence.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I feel like we're going to get there.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
But the next time, the next time it's possible to
play them is the Eastern Conference Finals.

Speaker 1 (22:51):
If you're a little superstitious.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
But it's so easy to lose track of that right,
and sometimes it's easy to lose track of things in general,
which is why zoom i can Companion so important, Carter,
because only you can do your best work, zoom Mayi
Companion can help you do the rest, like automatically taking notes,
answering meeting questions, and helping you respond to your coworker
bailable at no additional cost with eligible paid plans.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Were happy with zoom may I Companion. Now, before we
dive into yeah, before we dive into the Boston stuff,
I did to say. Paley Dodd just said in the
in the chat, seventy four percent of our wins this
season are part of winning streaks, which is hilarious and
I'm pretty sure that's accurate.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
It feels it spiritually feels right at the very least.
That's a great, great point. And you know, the funny
thing about that Celtics game, I'm going to start it off.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
I don't even know if sour no is.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
The right way to put this, but my takeaway from
that game is the same as if we would have
lost it, which is I'm a little frustrated that I
feel like I didn't learn anything from that game. I
am very happy to see that this Cavs team is
once again resilient as hell. They came back multiple times,

(24:02):
like the fact that they you know, within the first quarter,
they cut that down to six, they cut it down
to three. Later on, Boston extended the lead to seventeen.
They had the energy for multiple comebacks. That's not something
I've learned in that game. I know that this team
is resilient. I know that they are tough as hell
and that they can come back. I know that this

(24:22):
team is a team that can close out. They have
not lost a game that they were leading going into
the fourth quarter. What I saw on Friday night is
exactly what I thought the Cavs were. They are a
team that has everything they need to beat the Boston Celtics.
They have the personnel, they have the talent. They are

(24:43):
capable of doing it. I don't know if they're ready
to do it. And that's not something we're going to
learn until a playoff series, and that's you know, that's
something we might not learn until, you know, midway through
the series. We didn't learn about that with the twenty
sixteen Cavaliers basically until game because those two blowout losses
to start that series that hurt, that sucked. It looked

(25:05):
like they didn't belong, but they dug deep and they
found a way to reopen that series. We may not
learn that until midway through the series against the Celtics,
but I remain convinced that they have what it takes.
It's just going to be about whether or not the
guys are ready to execute at the consistent level necessary

(25:26):
to beat Boston four hours, seven times.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, it's the fourth straight game where they came out
really tight, and I feel like there was just a
little bit of that letting perfect be any enemy of
good creep into their process. And that's a little scary.
You know this. We've said it all year. They have

(25:50):
shredded much better defenses than the Boston Celtics. And the
fact that we're four four first quarters in like I
don't know if they talk twenty five in any of them,
and even the first six minutes of each quarter probably

(26:10):
is even worse. I feel like there's just a general
tightness that takes over the team. Wide open threes, there's
that extra half second of loading up and looking at
the brim. It's just like this. I don't know if
they want it too much. I don't know if it
is the anxiety of playing Boston in terms of they

(26:32):
are going to avalanche you if you're not careful. So
there's this, like you know, a little Sasha Pavlovitch. Their
offense is their defense where you're worried about letting their
machine get going, so you feel like you have to
like build up some give to maintain connection. But we
have seen it. However, I will say I think that

(26:55):
we have to give them credit for they're a bil
to find offense and find an offensive flow. For forty
three minutes of this game. Yeah, for forty three minutes
they put up about a one to forty four offensive
rating against the defense they have not been able to

(27:16):
figure out. I don't because that's if I have anxieties,
it's are they mentally ready and are they able to
figure out how to score on this team consistently? And
my big question at the offensive death machine going the
way they have and maybe that, I mean, one four
is a pretty good offensive rating forty three minutes. Do

(27:38):
you feel like they found anything there or do you
think that was just more reliance on Donovan mitchell excellence.

Speaker 2 (27:45):
I don't think it was more reliance on Donovan Mitchell excellence,
just because I did feel like we got valuable contributions
from a variety of guys during certain stretches. Right like
whenevn't Mobiley gotten foul trouble in the third quarter, Jared,
even though he had a tough game, went out there
in those minutes, bought Mobley sometime, got eight points, got
a couple of rebounds, extra possessions where he was fighting

(28:08):
for it and they deflected outbounds. That was really important.
Evan Mobley awesome fourth quarter, Like he really stepped up
and was assertive on both ends of the floor.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
I think it was what.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
Eleven points and eight rebounds in the fourth quarter, that
was awesome. Flthy Darius. I mentioned it before, but hitting
that big three in the clutch and then that that
step back on Houser to ice the game, that's that's
big kohone stuff like I'm happy to see that. I
thought Ty Jerome gave them a good stretches. I thought
even Sam Merrill did a good job competing at times.

(28:42):
Icycle Corl I want to get into him in depth,
but I loved what I saw from him, not only
in this Boston game, but I liked a lot of
his minutes against Portland as well. I don't feel like
it was just more Mitchell greatness, but I do think
that one of my big takeaways was Mitchell greatness, and
that was one of our takeaways against the last game

(29:04):
that we won versus Boston, where we said, you know,
I think correctly, we deserve to pat ourselves on the back.
Sometimes I'm a little hesitant to do that, but we've
talked all season about how, yeah, you can look at
the impact metrics and you can say Darius is the
primary driver of the offense. Evan's the primary driver of
the defense. But that has been facilitated because of Donovan

(29:25):
Mitchell's leadership. He has enabled them to do that. I
think in these matchups, this is where you see, oh yeah,
Donovan is the best player on the team. Donovan is
that guy that's ready to meet the moment. He is
so proficient against the Boston Celtics. He's phenomenal. And before
I let you talk Carter, I do need to fact
check your one note because he said I don't know

(29:46):
if we scored twenty six in a first quarter. We
did outscore Boston twenty eight to four in the game
we won in Cleveland. But to your point, in that
game me into twenty four, twenty eight to twenty four,
did I say that.

Speaker 1 (29:59):
You said twenty eight to four. I was like, well,
that was.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
A you know, that's that's the lead only Boston could blow.
But no, it was twenty eight to twenty four, so
we we did eclipse that number. But to your point,
I do recall Less starting off slow at the beginning
of that game.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Okay, well, you know, I do think the Donovan thing
it's been I don't know. I'm not trying to act
like it's a bad thing that he's going nuts against
this team, but it is kind of a meaningfully different
road to their points than what they've been all year,
and I don't I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that.

(30:39):
I also just don't know why Boston cannot do anything
with this guy, like because even when, like I feel
like Donovan has been good all year. Obviously he's been
a I think he's gonna end up first team All
NBA by the end of the year. Yeah, but there
have been teams that have at least made it hard
for him, and I feel like Boston it's not been

(31:02):
hard for him, really even when he's had less efficient
games in the season series, it's been just because he's misshots, yeah,
as opposed to getting knocked off of his rhythm. Like,
I feel like there are a lot worse teams where
he has to work way harder to get to his spots.
I asked Bobby Manning yesterday on yesterday's pod, like, why

(31:24):
can't you guys do anything with him? Shouldn't you be
like Taylor made And they're not. I don't know they can't,
whether it's Drew or Derek White, Like, it doesn't feel
like like Boston has a tremendous amount of answers. I
don't know if it's the bigs and the drop coverage
or what, but man, he has just been electric against

(31:45):
that matchup and it's my number one reason to feel
like we can go into a series and beat them.

Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, And you know, to your point, I think it
is a little different than our overall profile, right how
we get points throughout the course of the season, But
that's kind of what it needs to be. When you're
playing elite teams, you need your best guys to step
up to the moment and be there in a lot
of these games against Boston, where Mitchell has scored other
guys have been struggling. I think that was true even

(32:12):
at times in this game. But when you look at
it again, similar lesson to previous games against Boston, where
we said Darius after that first game, we're like, if
Darius just had a B game, like not even a
B plus, that's probably enough to win, you know, the
game that we had just lost at home versus Boston.

(32:34):
If Evan just has a B game, that's probably enough
to win that game. I thought Evan and Darius both
had B games. They both struggled at times, but Mobile
seventeen to twelve and three, Darius twenty seven and three,
like that you can live with. That is enough to
get us over the hump. I thought both of them
had good enough games. So I don't really feel like

(32:57):
it felt like Donovan's scoring really did still come kind
of within the flow of the offense. It didn't feel like, Okay,
we're standing around and watching. I thought there was enough
guys getting involved. I thought we were still being creative
with how we got him those looks. But if I
had to give you a thesis for why he has
success versus Boston compared to let's say, loud Dort, I

(33:19):
feel like Derek White and Drew Holiday, they move their
feet well, they try to poke at the ball and
kind of get steals and stay in good position, and
you know, do a good job of bodying you up.
Lou Dort, He's not letting you move like he's going
to draw some fouls. But that guy is like a linebacker.

(33:40):
He is impeding where you're trying to go on the
court and really disrupting you. I feel like Derek White
and Drew Holiday really trust their lateral quickness and aren't
looking to disrupt the dribble as frequently. So Mitchell's still
able to get to his spots, even Darius in the
kind of one guard lineup. That first run that we
had was with Mitchell out of the game, and Darius

(34:02):
basically had a six to zero runner himself where he
scored on Derek White and then created shots to assists.
I think it was to Max Drews and Jared Allen,
but you know, he was still kind of getting by
those guys.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
And I just.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Feel like you are able to get to your spots
against the Boston guards in ways that you aren't able
to against the loudord or even a Jalen sucks. Remember
how different it felt coming off that Magic series.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Ball pressure the ball pressure is is really I think
he can knock Donnie out of his game a little bit,
and that's just not Boston style. They wait for you
to you know, it's like your older brother letting you
get past him and open the ball out from behind. Yeah.
I always was I would come for the block from behind.
But yeah, naturally, naturally, you scumbag older brother the worst,

(34:52):
the worst among us. I was getting chased downs long
before this pod buddy, I know. But you know, representing
the little others here, you know, I just think there
is a matchup thing with him where he just feels
really comfortable. I mean, he is now the all time
leading point scorer by per game average against the Boston Celtics,

(35:14):
sturt passing Michael Jordan as the only two guys that've
ever averaged thirty plus against the Celtics. He was freaking
phenomenal in that game. I wonder how they can handle
games where he's not phenomenal, because I do think we
need to talk a little bit about how Darius has played.

Speaker 2 (35:36):
When you talk about how Darius is playing, and we
got to talk about as like you know that that
is one of my central frustrations of that matchup is
I'm annoyed Porzingis didn't play, like I get it. You know,
he at the flu. I don't believe he played today either.
Drew Holiday that that injury is probably fairly serious at
least it's going to cost him some time. So it's

(35:57):
not like that was gamesmanship, but it was knowing to
not have Porzingis out there because I wanted to see
what Evan could do there, right like. That was one
of the main things that we were trying to highlight,
and I think it's worth noting if you look at
kind of net ratings versus the Caves, Boston has a
negative nine net rating when Porzingis is on the court
versus Cleveland, even though we can't score on them, they

(36:18):
struggle offensively in those minutes. And when you look at
the Drew Holiday minutes minus ten net rating versus the Calves,
so on the one hand, you could say, hey, if
they were taking shots away from Jason Tatum and Jalen
Brown on one of their best combined scoring nights of
their entire career together, that probably would have been in
that positive. You could probably even argue, hey, this was

(36:39):
a you know, they've been net negatives versus the Cavs
this season. You can do all of those kind of arguments.
But from a fac collecting standpoint, I would have loved
to see them out there because that was one of
the main things I wanted to see. But you're right,
I think when it comes to Darius and his efficiency
against Boston, I think that is something that we need
to discuss.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
Yeah, so I think every I think the impulse for
everyone has been to talk about Darius on the defensive
side of the floor. And I think you know, Tatum
took two field goal attempts against him yesterday, I'm sorry,
two days ago. Jalen definitely got more in. Jalen, by

(37:20):
the way, scares me much more on a switch than Tatum.
He'll just bury guys and go all the way to
the rim or get so damn close that he's taking
a midi from float range basically, and you know he's
he's a much nastier, I think, switch attacker than Tatum,
who tends to That's that's one of the biggest differences. Yeah, However,

(37:48):
Boston had in the in the forty three minutes following
the you know, the insane explosion to start the game
where they get seven of their first nine three point attempts.
Boston mustard a one to twelve offensive rating that is
well below their season average, and it's very important that

(38:10):
the Cavs be able to outscore one to twelve per
one hundred possessions. That's with Tatum and Brown taking sixty
one field goal attempts, the defense held up and I'm up,
I'm watching the game, two guys. It doesn't feel good

(38:30):
to watch Darius get beat up on some of these possessions.
And they did start making some tweaks in the fourth
quarter that I want to talk about later, But like,
it doesn't feel good to watch Tatum, you know, put
his shoulder into Darius's chest and knock him back five
feet and hit him MIDI over him, or even bury

(38:53):
him and get all the way to the rim before
help can come. That doesn't feel good. I don't care.
The only thing I care about is the points per
one hundred possessions. I care about how efficient their offense is.
And their office wasn't that freaking efficient two nights ago. Yeah,

(39:14):
so until the and I thought, and I was waiting.
Sorry to monologue a little bit here, man, but I
was waiting for the Tatum explosion game, in the Brown
Explosion game, because in the first three matchups, I kept saying,
I'm fine with this strategy, even though it doesn't look good,
even though the worst case scenario is those guys go

(39:36):
off for like sixty points on you. Well, it happened,
and they still didn't score that efficiently justin.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
And the funny thing was it largely happened on Jared
and Nevian like they were hitting a lot of shots
over the bigs where it's like it did seem like
the broadcast was waiting to make the Darius point and
Tatum only hit one shot on him all evening. There
was a few possessions. I agree with you. I think
the Brown one is tougher for Darius on those switches

(40:03):
because he's really going to continue to work his way through.
He's going to elbow his way to the rim. And
there's a couple of times where Darius held his ground.
Well Brown missed the shot and but got the offensive rebound.
You got to make sure that you're cleaning up those possessions.
But I thought Darius did a good job. Like there's
a difference between him getting targeted because he's the shortest

(40:24):
guy on the court and everybody else. You know, he
is largely good defenders. I think you still see them
target Donovan in the same way when he's the loan
guard out there. That's what Boston's going to do. They
are a heavy ISO team. They try to get the
advantage of switches and they're going to go at the
smaller guards. There's a difference between that and like attacking

(40:45):
Tray Young who's offering you know, clean paths to the basket,
getting you know, blowing by Lukadanca geezily because he's not
trying on the defensive end, That's not what this is.
If you're talking about a not good mid range shooter
taking not great shots over darre and the health defense
is going to be there if he gets to the rim.
I will continue to live with that, but I do

(41:06):
wonder what type of impact that that has, you know,
on Garland's efficiency too, right, because he's taken a pounding
out there, and you know, maybe there's some correlation there.
Maybe it's you know, just happens to be what's happened,
so far this season. I do think, you know, Drew
Holiday and Derek White are terrific defensive guards. They're going
to make things tough. Carter, If you had to, yes,

(41:28):
what do you think Darius is shooting on wide open
threes versus Boston this season?

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Bad would be my guest. I'm going to say thirty.
He is shooting forty one percent on wide open threes
versus Boston this year. That's disappointing.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
And that's over four attempts a game. If you want
to take out that, and that's with that awful, awful
game where you know he missed everything. If you're taking
that game out of the mix, it's forty four percent.
He's shooting really, really well on those What do you
want to guess he's shooting on contested threes, like very
tight coverage threes versus Boston this season, zero sixty seven

(42:05):
percent on those tightly contested.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Threes, shooting thirty three percent overall.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Know where he's really struggling. And this matches my eye test.
I was thrilled that these numbers match my ad tests.
Those late contests, those you know, four to six feet
away range, I noticed that all of those against Boston
were long in this game. It was like he was thinking, Okay,
do I attack, do I pull? Like those in between
shots versus Boston, He's shooting zero percent on those threes.

(42:35):
He's missed every single one of those threes. Now, why
don't you have that at the ready? I don't have
that at the ready. I can look that up for you,
but I know he's take the wide open ones. Uh
four point three attempts. He's hitting those wide open ones. Well,
it's the in between game where he's shooting twenty four
percent from the floor and zero percent from three.

Speaker 1 (42:56):
Well, that that just tracks with the overall Darius experience
against Boston. I feel like they speed him up. Man.
I feel like the floaters are are coming a bit,
you know, a half beat early or a half beat late,
as opposed to their perfect, you know, indecisive times. I
notice he's short arning arming a lot of them, which

(43:19):
is like a dead giveaway. So he's rushing. He's just
trying to get him out before the help comes in. Blocks,
you know, putting some layups off glass too hard and
then they're rimming out. I just I haven't seen the
scoring efficiency, and that's why I think if the Cavs
have a Darius Garland problem against the Boston Celtics right now.

(43:40):
I actually think if I'm Kenny Atkinson, this coaching staff,
and I'm Darius Garland, I am worried much more about
the offense because if he is playing his normal at
his normal Darius Garland level, then I am even more
confident that they can weather the storm with him. Defensively,

(44:01):
I think it gets harder to justify the aesthetics of
what we're watching if he is as he currently is,
shooting thirty three percent from the field, thirty three percent
from three uh and taking more field goal attempts than
his points per game. He's averaging nineteen field goal attempts
in his four games, he is averaging eighteen point eight points.

(44:25):
Last two nights ago, he had twenty points on twenty
three field goal attempts, and it's like, well, if we're
not going to get you know, peake, Darius, I understand
why you might be worried about this matchup, because the
whole value of him, of the value proposition, gets harder
to work with. And he's been great against physical defenses. Yep.

(44:50):
He killed Oklahoma City in that win against some of
the best guard defenders in the NBA. But he's got
to figure out out how he's going to kill Boston.
I'm going to I'm not including last I'm not going
to include last year's playoff series as part of this
sample because I just don't think he was himself. But

(45:14):
I haven't seen a track record of him figure this
out yet. And he's and you and if you're listening
to this, you know we are like the biggest pro
Darius podcast out there. He has to be himself if
they want to win a series against the Boston Celtics.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
To answer your question, those in between shots, oh of
seven on those, and it's actually higher on the wide
open ones. If you take out that first game, he's
shooting fifty four percent on wide open threes seven to
thirteen after that first game against Boston. So it really
does match the eye tests, Like I think, the fact
that he is finishing well on tightly contested shots and

(45:53):
he is finishing well on wide open shots, that to me,
tracks like that is what I'm seeing against Boston. It's
the in between where I feel like he's pressing where
it's should I pull, and then when he decides to pull,
it's a half beat too slow, and he rushes the shot.
He rushes the floater. We saw some in those earlier

(46:14):
matchups where the floaters are hitting the back rim. The
three pointers that you know hit the back rim. He's
someone that has great touch, And I think that that
is one of those spots where I don't think that
that reflects being scared of the moment, because he's very
clearly still being assertive. He's taking those shots in clutch time.
He's not passing up open looks. I think that that

(46:36):
is a ready for the moment question of do you
can you maintain the composure against the defense that specifically
is trying to rush you, that is trying to make
you second guess. He needs to be consistently assertive and
attack those late closeout situations. He needs to attack when
it's four to six feet away and you have that

(46:56):
open three, do not hesitate take that shot. But to
me overall, when I'm looking at these numbers, I like seeing,
you know that he's shooting fifty four percent on those
open looks after that first game and forty overall. Right,
I like that that he's finishing well when he's contested,
because I think when someone's contesting you and there it's

(47:17):
tight coverage. You got, you know, Derek White on your
hip or whatever the case may be. You know what
you're supposed to do there, right, Like, if enough defense collapses,
he's going to make the right pass. Seven assists to
one turnover. That's what you want to see against Boston.
If you're finishing, you know, like, all right, I'm going
up with the shot. There's no indecision in that spot.
It's the in between spots that I am noticing that

(47:40):
he is rushing his decision making. And I think that
that comes down to composure.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, I think. I don't know. Maybe it's so a
bit of wanting it too much. Maybe it's that you know,
just leaning, you know, a little bit of regression to
past bad habits. But I do think it matters. I
do think that you you need to see this because
he just gets hard to justify the defensive pain and
the nots you're putting yourself in defensively to help to accommodate,

(48:12):
you know, the size disadvantage you have when he's not
scoring officially on his end. So I do think a
lot of that stuff, I won't care. I don't think
the aesthetics will ever be good with Boston because they
are mismatch hunters. But I do want to just get
back to.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
What can I just say if they go ahead, if
we're looking at the last three games against Boston, because
the first one, you know, he was gassed and he said,
you know, they have to give him a game off
and it was just an off off night. Does it
sway you at all that in the following three games,
he's averaging twenty two points per game. He's shooting forty
percent from the field and forty three percent from three

(48:47):
versus Boston.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Not that much. I think he's I still don't think
he's been at his level. I think the win he.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
Was, Yeah, But I just feel like I feel like
you're not going to get Darius at his level consistently
in a series against Boston. Like I think, bottom line here,
you're going to have below your season averages there. But
if I'm getting twenty two and six on forty forty
three shooting and he's not turning the ball over, I

(49:19):
think that that I think you can win with that.
If I want what you're supposed to from Donovan and Nevin.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Maybe we're not going to see him at an A
plus a lot, I think he needs to find his
way to a B plus. I don't think he has
hit a B plus game yet against Boston. And I
know that seems like a persnickety distinction to make, but
like I do think it matters, and I think there
are margins against a team that's good are so thin

(49:49):
that there's also the just the rising tide effect that
Darius has that no one else on this team has.
No one else affects this team's overall off offensive health
like Darius Garland. There's a reason the whole team looked
like they were playing in the mud today because Darius
was having an awful game and couldn't get that and

(50:10):
the machine wasn't wasn't humming, like the key conductor for
the for the train wasn't making sure all everything was going.
So that's why the B plus thing matters more with
him than like if you were to say, party you
can have seven B plus games from Darius or Evan

(50:30):
against Boston and the other guy is going to flex
weight between like a C plus and a B minus.
I might still pick Darius, I really, and I know
that's a I know that's a I know that would
probably be a controversial take, that would probably put me
in the minority. But I think Evans baseline is so

(50:50):
much higher because we can do on defense how he
can duck in and how he can have he can
ruin games in a six minute stretch like he had
like he had two days ago, Whereas I think for
the overall health of how the offense is functioning, if
Darius is cooking, I just feel so good about everyone

(51:12):
else's ability to eat just by being around. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:16):
No, I think there's validity to that, and I think
that there is room for growth. I like that he's
not scared of the matchup, that he is continuing to
be aggressive. I like the fact, you know that he
hit those shots at the end of the game. I
think it's really going to come down to settling down.
And you know, I hate bringing this up because I
think all four games did start with the Cavs having

(51:39):
a slow start, and I think that is something that
we need to keep an eye on, right that you
can't have that happen in a playoff series where you
are putting yourself behind the eight ball to start, you know,
every game, to start a series. I do think that
there's maybe something to the fact that the last two
games were particularly rough, and both of them were coming

(52:00):
off of forty point wins. They beat Dallas by forty
three prior to the previous game, you beat Orlando by
forty and you're playing, you know, very loose. You don't
have to play as focused, And I'm interested what that
adjustment looks like going into a playoff series. But it
could go the other way, right, Like, you know, you
may not have the good vibes, you might be coming

(52:21):
off a tough playoff series and you tighten up even
more against Boston. I think that this is a trend
that is legitimate. I don't think it is, you know,
context dependent on those two I hate bringing it up,
but it is something that was in the back of
my mind of you almost want to be in a
rhythm going in and I feel like those types of
wins take you out of that rhythm entirely.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yeah, I think there is something to that. It's always
a weird oh we're playing in a different sport now,
a ramp up, Like we always felt that about the
Cabs in the finals, when they would just romp through
the Eastern Conference and then all of a sudden they'd
have to go play the Warriors death machine, and it's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
slow down, We're we're getting up to speed here, fellas.

(53:05):
And the most.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Damaged Toronto would do to us in a playoff series
was getting us used to attacking Demarta Rozen and Jonnas Malencunas.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Did the Did the Cavs win a single game one
against the Warriors in any of those four finals? No,
I didn't think, so oh no, no, we don't. No, no,
they didn't. So uh, you know, I do think there's
a little bit of that that comes into this. Obviously,
it's not a not a great excuse. I hope the
players wouldn't make that excuse. No, and I don't mean

(53:35):
it as that. I know, I know you're not trying it.
We're just we're just evaluating everything across the board. I
do want to talk about my favorite squeak or my
favorite learning from the game, which is that after the
Calves won the second game of the series. I mean,

(53:56):
you got on this podcast and we both we both
defended and agreed with the switching philosophy, even if Darius
was gonna get beat up in the process. But you
said I want to see them fight over screens a
little bit harder, And I said, that sounds nice in theory,

(54:18):
but it does open you up to slips, to miscommunications
and those both those things kill you against this Boston
team and gets there, you know, because when you mess
those exchanges up, you put two on the ball and
then all of a sudden, the Boston three point machine
is cranked up. So I pushed back, and I felt

(54:41):
like we left it in a pretty good place and
through Game three and through I felt like three quarters
of Game four mostly still the soft switch. So Darius's
man comes up in screens for one of the Jays
and they just kind of do a pass off. Fourth quarter,
I felt like things changed and guys started fight over
screens just a little bit, or to force a re screen,

(55:05):
or to force the ball handler to pick up the
ball and hit an outlet and have the Cavs defense
scrambling back. And I thought it mostly led to good results.
And I just wanted to if you had noticed that,
what you thought about that that tweak, because it is
I feel like the first major defensive tweak we've seen

(55:26):
from Kenny in this season series.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yeah, and I liked it when I saw it at
the end of Game two. That is something that I
have circled on. You know that I'm thinking about of
not showing your cards in the regular season, but something
we might see in the playoffs. I think when you
are when you have a mentality of we're okay if
you do force the switch, We're going to make you

(55:49):
force it. We're not going to give you this off switching.
We trust our guys to fight around screens, and honestly,
I think you can. I think DeAndre Hunter does a
good job of screen navigation. I think I think Darius
has done it really improved as a screen navigator. I
think Donovan's doing a good job. I think Sam Merrill
does a good job of that. Isaacokorro for years has

(56:10):
some of the best screen navigation metrics in the league. Defensively,
I think you have the personnel to do that. If
your mentality is, hey, we're going to make you really
fight to earn that, I think that that completely changes
the complexion of what this series is. Defensively, Austin can
take advantage of it at times. Right like that, you

(56:30):
open yourselves up to counters in that spot, you open
yourself up the slips, you open up yourself to to
you know, the basketball IQ of the Celtics, but I
think having that as the primary kind of look. And
you know, if Tatum does eventually force the switch on
Darius and it takes two three re screens, but the
not only has he used energy to do so, the

(56:52):
shot clock is now down at eight when he goes
to work, it is more likely that he is going
to settle for one of those mid range shots that
he's not good at. You are baiting him again into
those worst tendencies that has resulted in him being ten
of twenty six against Darius. I just think that that
is the way I can jump into. It also allows

(57:12):
you to send help to Darius because he doesn't have
as much time to swing. Like if he gets the
switch with eight seconds left on the shot lock and
then takes the next four to five seconds to attack
Darius and hit him a couple times on the way
to the rim. Even if he does get all the
way to the rim, you can just bring help because

(57:32):
he can't kick it out to the opposite side of
the floor unless if he does, it's a grenade, right Like,
that's a high, high degree of difficulty shot. It's different
than a kickout with twelve seconds left. When you're lining
that up, you know the person standing in the corners like, God,
I've been watching you try to get this switch for
the last seventeen seconds and I was not expecting you

(57:55):
to throw this ball to me, Like yeah, I just
that is something that I'd really like to see because
I think, you know, having these tools in your arsenal,
being able to go to zone and throwing them off.
I thought Kenny's used the zone in this game disrupted Boston.
I thought that they got out of their game a
little bit to try to attack the zone, screwed up

(58:17):
their rhythm offensively being able to saw switch at times
right like, because that's the other beauty about you know,
when you're fighting through the switch, if they're expecting that,
and all of a sudden you do throw kind of
a quick sauce switch or a hard head or kind
of a variety of different looks, you're able to, all
of a sudden keep them out of a rhythm offensively.

(58:38):
I would like to see that. I'm just not a
big fan in general of sawce switching. I do think
it's impressive that we're able to do it as frequently
as we do, and I think that's a credit to
the dedication of you know, guys one through eleven on
this roster. But I do think that that is one
of those second gears that they can get to on
the defensive end of the court that we may not

(58:58):
see in the regular season.

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Yeah, I think. I think the reason why I have
been sold coming out of that game is that, yes,
your risk goes up when you fight, but one so
does theirs. Like Jason Tatum gets called for a really
crucial moving screen because Darius stayed connected and tried to

(59:22):
fight through. So they have to be they have to
be better, they have to execute well. And then at
the end of the day, I just was sitting there
watching rewatching that fourth quarter and thinking, well, if we're
not gonna ask the Cavs defense to think really hard
and not mess up, well, then like we're not gonna

(59:44):
win a championship, right, Like this team is gonna have
to be able to live in the gray excusally. And
you know, stop switching is nice because it is black
and white. We're gonna switch everything. It's really hard to
mess it up and removes the miscommunication. Yes, but if

(01:00:05):
they really want to defend at their best, they're going
to have to live into that gray into that gray
area of well, we'd better be talking, we'd better be planning,
we'd better you know, have our principles in order. Uh,
and we're gonna even just literally have to do our
jobs well outside of the communication. We're gonna have to

(01:00:26):
stay connected and fight over this. We can't die on
the screen if we're not gonna switch. We can't go
too far under. You know, there was one possession where
Derek White walked into a pull up three because Darius
went took a really wide angle under a Tatum screen
and you know, Hunter got it, gave a late contest,

(01:00:46):
but it's one that White hits a lot, and so
they're they're they're the the risk goes up. But you know,
nothing mentioned, nothing gained strategically, and something else I was
thinking about. The other thing that has kind of brought
me over to your side of the argument is the
calves are bigger now up and down the roster, and

(01:01:08):
teams that are playing big guys at the two through
five and oftentimes the one through five when Tigerom is
out there, you have more margin for error to play
more aggressive. You know, there were plays where Hunter fought
over the screen and he got screened, but he was

(01:01:30):
able to get back to the hip of Tatum. There
was a few plays where Dean Wade, who played his
best defense of the entire season. I thought he was
unbelievable in this game, but he was just bought through
and stayed connected. And it's easier to stay connected when
you're bigger and longer and you have other big, tall,

(01:01:53):
long armed dudes on the weak side patrolling any of
those kickout passes. I mean, Boston turned the ball over
in that game, yeah, more than they normally do. Tatum
at three really brutal turnovers, Daly turnovers, and they won
the possession battle ever so slightly, because again, I just
don't think you get to kick Boston's ass much because

(01:02:15):
they're too good. But like all those things have tipped
the scales for me, and I really like the change,
and I think they're better built to play the way
you were hoping they would play after the Hunter trade
than they were before. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
Well, you know, as I always say, I'm never wrong,
I'm just early, and this is yet another one of
those examples. And you were correct to call me out
on the last podcast about how I put you in,
you know, a tough spot sometimes being the one that's
always right. It's a burden. It's a responsibility that I
do not take lightly. I do want to before we

(01:02:50):
wrap this up because we are going long, but I
can't get out of this podcast without talking about it.
Since he's come back from injury.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
It's not his best statistical stretch, but this is the
best I've ever felt about Isaac Ocorra.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
I am loving how he's being used. I am loving
his impact and I didn't feel it in real time,
maybe because the start felt so terrible against Boston, But
when I did my rewatch this morning, he jumped off
the screen, particularly in that first quarter, in terms of
his impact on that run that got the Cavs kind

(01:03:26):
of back within range. The you know, he set a
screen for DeAndre Hunter, he gets a wide open three
in the corner, set a screen to free ab Donovan,
you know, rolled to the basket.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
It was one.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I think it was Donovan's second turnover. He shouldn't have
been credited for it because you know, Luke Cornette blew
up o'cor and him in the head there. But then
there was also, you know a play as a screener
where he set Donovan free. Donovan got the shot, he
crashed to the glass and got the put back after
Mobile tipped it to him. There was another one where

(01:04:01):
he screened for Pritchard and rather than flaring out to
the corner as he traditionally would, he rolled to the basket.
When he rolled to the basket, it forced al Horford
to pick him up because al Horford was forced to
pick up a coro there rather than ignore him going
to the corner. That meant that Sam Hauser had to
come over and help on Darius because Darius blew by

(01:04:22):
Pritchard after that screen. That led to Darius hitting Dean
Wade for a wide open three that he cashed. Okoro
being used in this way being used as kind of
that Bruce Brown player has changed his game from being
a all right, we're gonna sit you in the corner
and if you hit your threes, you had an impactful game.
If you don't, you know, we can't have you out there.

(01:04:44):
He is playing in a manner that has an impact
in all of his minutes. He is more aggressive attacking
the glass. He is making smart passes out of the role.
He is being used in a much much more creative way,
even better than that stretch he had earlier this season.
And I think some of that is tied to what

(01:05:05):
we said after the Hunter trade of he's going to
get to play a lot more too. But I just
feel like his understanding of what he needs to do
within the flow of this team has improved dramatically. Well.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
We've always liked his playmaking, chops and his reads, and
I just think the skill has never really caught up
to the handles not good enough to access it basically, yeah, basically,
And I think Kenny has done a nice job of
getting Isaac just moving around the court a little bit.

(01:05:38):
You know. I just think there's less. There's less. No
one really hangs in one spot for too long in
this offense, Like there's just constant, you know, vacation of space.
And I think, oh, Quarrel really benefits from that because
what it does is he's always been a pretty helpful cutter,

(01:05:58):
and now he's asked to do it a lot as
just part of the function of the offense. He's asked
to do a lot more screening than I felt like
he did last year. And when he catches the ball
on the move. The skill stuff matters less. He doesn't
have to beat someone off the dribble. He just has
to go on a straight line and kick it where

(01:06:19):
it needs to go or go up with it. And
the three I think does look a little bit better
after getting that extra time off, which is nice. But
what's nice is I think he's been helpful in all
four games he's played since he's returned without needing to
be a particularly high volume three point shooter. Yeh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:39):
And you know he's getting some of those events stats.
He's creating second chance opportunities just by fighting for the ball.
And I think again, some of that is tied to
play in as a guard, where it's not his responsibility
to run back and transition and take away the corner. Right,
He is a little bit more freedom to do that
because so frequently when teams, say a big man into

(01:07:00):
the possession, they're handing it off to the guard and
that little bit of time buys you the ability to
crash the glass. He's getting some awesome blocks. He had
a big, big one on Jalen Brown. He had a
crucial time. He blocked a jump shot today. Like he
is just he's looking more kind of athletic and explosive
than I even recalled. And I just feel like, even

(01:07:24):
though the stats aren't jumping off the page, I really
really feel his impact and I just feel like this
is a version of Icycle Coral that can make a
difference for this team come to postseason.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Yeah, and I do think it's the first time that
I felt like him in a low minutes role. You know,
he's playing, you know, between fourteen to twenty a game
right now. Yep. It's the first time where it's like, well, yeah,
I hope he hits the three because otherwise we've wasted
twelve minutes of offense. Yep. You know, I feel like

(01:07:56):
he's just like he's able to join the game in
a flow a little bit better than he has even
though he's not playing a tremendous amount of minutes. Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:08:06):
Yep, four of eight from three these last couple of games.
You know, he had a very very timely one against
Boston that was great to see. Just really really happy
with that last little bit of news. But before we
wrap this up, the Calves announced today that J. T.
Thor has been waived no longer on a two way
contract and Nakwon. Tomlin has been rewarded for his strong

(01:08:28):
strong play. I was a little surprised to see thor
Waived talked about how, you know, just given the fact
that he has NBA experience, I thought that he would
be the most prepared. But when you look at those
G League stats, there's no denying that Tomlin.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Has helped performed him so far this season. Yeah, I
think there's a little bit of that. You know, Tomlin
is clearly the higher upside project. And with two ways,
you're not looking to like, you know, have a single
war in a sack single. You know, you're you know,
you know, a sackfly. You're looking for singles, doubles and triples,

(01:09:03):
and I do think Tomlin has a much higher percentage
shot of being that. You know, he's still so early
on his NBA journey, in his basketball journey journey, frankly,
that he feels like, you know, getting him on a
multi year deal seems really wise. You know, you know
how I feel about two ways you cycle them, And

(01:09:25):
I think you know, the team kind of saw they
they saw enough of JT to be like, hey, here's
where we think your ceiling is. Here's where our short
term opportunity is, it's just not the best fit and
instead went with another upside play and Tomlin, who you know,
I think if you were say who is the best

(01:09:48):
shot of being on the roster three years from now,
Tomlin or Thora, I would certainly picked Tomlin and uh,
I'm glad to see him get rewarded with a little
bit more secure, a little bit more investment from the team.
It does open the question of are they going to
fill that fifteenth roster spot before the playoffs because I

(01:10:09):
think both me and you thought Jake Thor might be
that guy, and now now I have no clip.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
Yeah, I thought it was very possible that one of
the two way guys we're going to get that spot.
It will be interesting to see they have, you know,
some options with what they can do there. The buyout
deadline has now passed, so any players bought out after
March first are not playoff eligible. So we have an
idea of who's available in the buyout market, We have

(01:10:35):
an idea of who's available in the free agency market.
Do they look at someone like Mobamba, who I believe
is you know, playing with a G League team but
not signed Birmingham. I think he just signed with Yeah,
so you know, there's an opportunity there. It'll be interesting
to see what they do with that spot. But I
do think you're correct in assuming that because Thor is waived,

(01:10:57):
I don't think we're going to see a two way promotion.

Speaker 1 (01:11:00):
I just.

Speaker 2 (01:11:02):
Hey, I guess you could still see that and then
Thora is signed to a two way again. But I
just feel like, from a procedural standpoint, the smart money's
probably on that not being the case.

Speaker 1 (01:11:12):
Yeah, what, I'm curious are they going to fill it
at all? You know, I hope they do. I hope
they find someone they think that they can that can help.
I would love to see a big especially in the
wake of waiting for DeAndre Hunter and adding Javonte Green.
But we'll see. We'll see what they end up doing.

(01:11:33):
You know, if whoever they sign ends up playing, we're
probably in a healthy amount of trouble. But help Dante
Jones helped us win the NBA Championships, so who knows.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Hey, you know, it might just mean that we are
up forty because that could certainly happen with how damn
good this team has been. Even when it comes to
the first round of the playoffs, so I think, you know,
it's terrific the fact that we're on a ten game
winning streak. When you look at that schedule coming out
of the All Star Break, you said, you got the ringer.
That's you know, that's tough teams. You're going to be

(01:12:05):
tested in that stretch. They answered the bell in all
of those They once again showed that they can come
back multiple times. This team has grit, it has resilience,
it has the ability to go out there and beat Boston.
It's just going to be whether or not they are
ready to do that this season. And you know, you
can't take these opportunities for granted. Man No and I

(01:12:27):
we we asked if that Boston game was the last
really important game of the season for this team, and
I still kind of do think that. And now it's
going to be a matter of, really, what are they
gonna do. They've got sixteen games in March. This is
a dense month of basketball to play during a stretch

(01:12:48):
where they have all but locked up the one seed
in the Eastern Conference. And you know, it's hard to
motivate yourself in a you know that to be an
okay see team that you know when you put all
the percentages together, it's not a tremendous chance that you'll
be playing them in the finals, you know, just based
on her like probability and odds. So I just I

(01:13:12):
wonder how they how they treat this. How are guys
going to get rest? Are guy's gonna be sharp?

Speaker 1 (01:13:20):
Is ken? He gonna do some weird stuff to because
he's got this huge runway to play around with ideas,
and God knows, the man probably likes to tinker. So
it's going to be an interesting month of Cavs basketball
coming up, even if the wins and losses maybe get
a little less important. I mean, I'll still care a

(01:13:41):
lot because I really want him to get to sixty seven.
But uh, you know it will be a motivation challenge
as well. I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
Well listen to your good friend justin We're getting to
sixty seven, don't you worry.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
The beautiful thing is I think I'm there now, by
the way, no matter I'm with you, no.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Matter what path we take, I think it still happens.
Because this team has so much depth. You put Craig
Porter Junior out there, he looks great. You put you know,
Jalen Tyson has given them good minutes. I think probably,
you know, if someone made the horrible decision to make
me a coach, I think the way that I would
approach this is, Hey, if we've got back to backs,

(01:14:19):
I'm capping our our starters minutes twenty eight for one
of these and the other one prepared to play real minutes.
I'm going to try to ramp your minutes up, but
I'm going to be strategic with this. We're going twelve
these games. These ones were treating as dress rehearsals. I
think that they have the depth and the flexibility to
do that. Continue to manage, you know, any injuries and

(01:14:40):
guys getting banged up, be cautious in those spots and
just use it to experiment further. Right, Like, you might
not play a Boston or okay see, but you're going
to play a honest You're going to play the Knicks.
You're going to have opportunities to try out some stuff
against very good players and very good teams.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Yeah, it's going to be fun, man, Oh, Cavs, go Calves.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
It is going to be fun. It's always fun talking
to you, buddy. It's always fun going live. Thanks to
everyone that tune in live on YouTube. Make sure you
guys like and subscribe. Click that notification bels you know
when we're going live. If you're listening via podcast and
you want to support us, leave us a rating, lea review,
subscribe unsubscribed, we subscribe and help cook those books. You
want to be part of the Chase Down's exclusive discord chat,
sendy screenshot that review to Chase downpot at gmail dot com.

(01:15:24):
However you choose to support us, we really do appreciate it.
Sure you guys have stayed safe out there. Until next time, Kay,