Tweaking the Approach

Justin and Carter discuss how the Cleveland Cavaliers could change their approach next season to build upon what they did well, and help it translate to the playoffs. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This crowd rises suits being what Carl slamming it, Oh
Carle left.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Wing free ball perfect, Darlin pop then Hellift block the
shot at the rim pow with the left hand and
of fowl. Welcome to the Chasetown Podcast, part of the
Caves Media family. I'm your host, Justin Rowan. The Chase
Doown is presented by Fubo, the official streaming partner at
the Calves. Watch over three hundred and fifty channels of
live sports and TV, including fan Duel Sports Network without cable.

(00:27):
There's no cost and no commitment. Try for free at
FuboTV dot com slash Calves. We are coming to you
guys live the eve of the NBA Finals between the
Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder. Joining me today
to discuss the playoffs, discuss Calves changes and all that
good stuff is my co host, Carter Rodriguez.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Carter, Hey, nobody, I'm doing good man. It's been quite
the quite the marathon for your boy.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Been on the road two straight weeks. But I'm home,
uh and trying to recover from some nasty jet lag.
But the Netherlands was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Can I just say for those on the YouTube. I
had not seen Carter's camera until like he came live
on the mic, and that mustache was a cold open
for me. How about that. I don't think I've seen
this look from you before.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
I was curious. So I was having a kind of
a tiring, you know, a rough day because I'm so tired,
you know, I had a rough morning. You know, all
sorts of things were going wrong. I was like, you
know what, I'm gonna do something a little silly, see
if I can change the energy of my day. And
full disclosure, the mustache wasn't supposed to make it to

(01:39):
the podcast. I was gonna because Kylie hates it whenever
I have one, and I was gonna shave it before
she even got home. But then I made a bunch
of pivots to my day and the mustache remains. It'll
be gone by tomorrow.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Look, the off season is a time for pivots. You're
going to see teams change up the rotation. You're going
to see trades, are going to see firings the New
York Knicks, uh, you know, fire Tom Thibodeau, and we
also have some changes on the caves side as well.
There was an announcement today. I don't know if it's
official yet, but Jordan Ought there is reporting that he
has been hired by the Phoenix Suns to be their

(02:14):
next head coach. Congratulations to him. You know, it seems
like the Cavs assistant coaches are in demand. That's a
great sign. I think if you look at the last
few years the Cavs front office, you know, a lums
have been running quite a few teams around the NBA.
He has been running some successful teams around the NBA
and now you're seeing that a little bit on the

(02:35):
coaching staff. You'll be interesting to see with that vacancy
in New York if Johnny Bryant's name ends up getting
into that mix as well.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
It's a classic good news bad news thing. Like good
news you're an organization that's respected by its peers around
the league. Bad news brain drain, you know, and you
got to you gotta find a way to replicate your culture.
And that is the story of culture, right, is that
it's not tied to one individual. Is that, you know,

(03:06):
it is the tide that raises all boats, that allows
you to plug in different folks with different skills and
still you know, be a representation of what you once were.
But like, it doesn't not angst me out that the
Cavs two top assistants might be on another team, you know,

(03:27):
going to the next season.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, and you know, I think we've said the same
thing when guys have been poached from the G League team, right, Like,
when you do a good job developing talent, when you
bring in, you know, talent that's worthy of other teams
taking a look at them, these kinds of things are
going to happen. I think, you know, angst is a
good word to use. I'm also just kind of intrigued

(03:50):
because we never really know how much responsibility anybody has
on a coaching staff. But what we do know is
that Kenny Atkinson has been big when he talked in
the media. He's been big on collaboration, whether it's with
his assistant coaches, whether it's with the players. And it's
going to be interesting to see what type of a
new voice the Cavs bring in. What you know, what

(04:11):
what's their track record, what types of locker rooms have
they been involved in. I think, particularly in this situation
where I don't expect massive change ups to the core
and the identity of what this roster is. I think
a fresh set of eyes and a new perspective might
be interesting. Now, interesting doesn't guarantee it's going to be

(04:31):
a positive change. Interesting, like you're you're still building off
the foundation that you laid next year. So it's not
something that's dramatically concerning. We're not changing up, you know,
the head coach. We have our coach of the year.
But I do think you know, what types of new
ways of looking at things and what other perspectives are
being brought into the locker room is definitely going to

(04:52):
be one of those things that we talk about when
these vacancy this vacancy is filled.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
And also like you know, who is the guy you know,
even if it's not a new face or if it's
an elevation you know, uh with with you know, of
the current staff. It's always interesting when you have one
of those like in house promotions where a guy goes
from the back bench to the front bench and all

(05:19):
of a sudden has that is empowered to have that voice,
you know, just like players, coaches have to play their roles,
you know, like and even in a you know, an
open minded environment that Kenny seems to have fostered where
seems like ideas can come from anywhere. But like at

(05:39):
the end of the day, like you know, you can't
have you know, fifteen coaches opening on every rotation or
every schematic decision, like you do need like a chain
o command at the end of the day. So you
you just you know, you lean on your culture to
maintain the quality bar, and you also have to trust

(05:59):
in your ability to identify coaching talent. Like, yeah, when
you lose a guy like ot who's clearly respected around
the league, no greater endorsement of a coach than one
of a bunch of players are sharing like hey, good luck,
well wishes UH to to to an assistant clearly a
good guy that uh that had the faith of the team.

(06:22):
So here's hoping that whoever they do replace him with
and uh is uh is an additive and you know,
brings that fresh perspective.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, it'll be very interesting to see what direction they go.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
You know.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
That's honestly, that's all I really feel qualified to even
say on this because we're not in that locker room,
we're not at practices, we're not you know, witnessing what
you know, the delegation of tasks are right, So what
direction they go with the vacancy is going to be
really interesting and well we'll see what comes of that.
But as I mentioned before, we are on the eve

(06:55):
of Game one of the NBA Finals, excited to see
this matchup between Pacers and Thunder. I've seen I've seen
a healthy mix from the media. Some are being like,
you know what, let's just talk about basketball. These teams
are awesome, Let's stop all this ratings nonsense. And then
I've also seen a lot of national media members that
are just flat out lazy, and it feels like they

(07:16):
are justifying their laziness by saying, well, you know, like
I don't know any of the names on these teams,
but these players, but they came out of nowhere. No,
if you're paying attention, there's some really damn good names.
There's a lot of really good players, and I'm excited
to see what the series is. I personally believe that,
you know, the Oklahoma City Thunder are going to win

(07:37):
this pretty comfortably. I think that they are the best
team this season. I think they are cut above. But
we've seen the Indiana Pacers, you know, surprise teams. They
surprised the hell out of us, and their ability to
steal games and to maintain their identity against a historically
good defense is going to be fascinating to watch.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah, I'm excited for the one because I think like
on the talent side of the Ledger, the Okay See,
he just has an overwhelming advantage. But stylistically, there are
some things here for the Pacers. You know, so much
of what fuels that Okay See engine is turnovers is

(08:19):
the overwhelming ball pressure that they put on you. The
pick six is the you know, the kind of the machine.
You know, the snowball effect that they can have on you,
and you know it never turns the ball over. The
Indiana Pacers, you know, who plays really really good pressure
defense that can get okay See out of their rhythm

(08:41):
on night, especially on nice shade, doesn't have it going
the Indiana Pacers. So I feel like it's one of
those things where the matchup is really you know, I'm
not sure the Pacers could ask for better answers to
the things that Okay See is good at. But the
talent I just don't think is there for them to

(09:02):
make this a long series. But I don't know, maybe
there are Okay see as a way of making you
on the on the on. When they're at their best,
you know, they feel like one of these generationally great teams,
but they are prone to some stinkers in some weird games.
So I don't I don't know. I don't know quite
what to make of it, but I do think I

(09:25):
do think this is the Thunder series to lose. And frankly,
if if you're the rest of the league, that's probably
a good thing because if they lose, they'll probably just
go trade for like Yannis or something, or Yannis and
Katie or something.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
That's probably a good point. It's it's interesting. You're right,
like they are prone to some of those games, and
you know, from a Cavs perspective, that's almost a little discouraging, right,
because this is probably the worst that the Thunder are
going to be, at least from a talent standpoint. As
they gain this experience from this finals run, I think
that they're going to be a better team. Now, health
might not align with that. There's a variety of factors.

(10:01):
You have to get lucky to win a championship, but
they're going to be learning from this experience, and you know,
one of the things I think about with the Pacers.
You guys might not agree with me in terms of
how that series would go if we were healthy. I
still believe with the current state of where we were at,
we could have won that series with the injuries. But
the other thing to kind of remember with that is

(10:23):
you learn from these types of experiences and you get better.
The Cavs, I firmly believe they would have won in
twenty fifteen if they were healthy. That Golden State Warriors
team the next year, they didn't make any dramatic changes
to their roster, but all of those guys took a
step forward because of the experience that they had. And
once again, maybe me not in a popular opinion, but
I think if both teams were fully healthy both of

(10:44):
those years, they flip with years they won the titles.
I think the Cavs win in fifteen and the Warriors
would have won in sixteen. It's what makes that title
so much fun, and you have to play who's ahead
of you. But just because I believe that about how
this Caz Pacers matchup would have gone this year, doesn't
mean that the Indiana Pacers can't take a step forward.
They have a lot of young talent. That's a team

(11:06):
that's well coached, well built, they have depth. Sure there's
some questions about free agency with Miles Turner and other
things there, but that doesn't mean that just because I
feel that way about this year doesn't mean that they
can't take a step forward next year. And from a
Calves standpoint, you got to constantly be workshopping what you
can learn from this playoffs and how you can take

(11:28):
those steps forward, whether it be from a rotation standpoint,
whether it be in terms of how you approach the game.
And I think they should be watching these finals. I'm
sure they're watching these finals and these playoffs with a
keen eye seeing what you can steal from Indy, what
you can steal from Okay, see what you can steal
from Minnesota, from New York. Every single data point is

(11:48):
valuable when it comes to the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Does it feel like this series more than last year
was a series where you can kind of watch it
as the Calves and be like they should steal some stuff.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Like I feel like I nothing about the Boston Celtics
was really replicable. When it comes to the Indiana Pacers,
that's a team that I think you watch them, and
they played better than their talent on both ends of
the floor because of how they approached.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
The other There's a lot of things I am for.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Okay, see, I completely agree with that, and frankly, like
I don't have any like ill will against the Indiana Pacers.
I respect the hell out of that team. They They
changed my mind throughout the season. You know where I
was at the start of the year, shadow Kaitlin Cooper's
substack for you know, opening my eyes throughout the season.
But they progressively got better too, as Halliburn, you know,

(12:43):
regained his form, they improved as a team. I think
there's a lot of things that you can steal from them.
And you speaking of stealing from them, did you happen
to see Chris Finch's I know you were traveling, so
maybe this missed you. Did you see Chris Finch's comments
after the Western Conference finals wrapped up?

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Nope.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
So I find this really interesting because you look at
the playoffs right now, the best offense in the playoffs
has been the Indiana Pacers. I know the Calves technically
have a better RO rating, but that was really skewed
by that Miami series. But the Pacers have had basically
a one eighteen offensive rating, the Thunder one fifteen point nine.

(13:24):
You look at how the Wolves played against the Oklahoma
City Thunder actually had a worse offensive rating than the
Calves had against the Indiana Pacers, and they had a
worse defensive rating than the Calves had against the Indiana Pacers.
And this is a Wolves lineup that has, you know,
Mike Conley, strong defender at the point guard position, Anthony Edwards,
good length of the shooting guard positions, strong defender, Jada

(13:45):
McDaniels elite wing defender, exactly what you want from that position.
Julius Randall is playing some of the best defense of
his career, Rudy Gobert Defensive Player of the Year candidate,
nas Reed coming in off the bench, Nikuila on Alexander Walker.
They have basically, like when we talk about the archetypes
that we want defensively and we want to bring into

(14:06):
the Calves, they have those guys, and they had a
worse defensive performance against the Oklahoma City Thunder, who are
a worse offense than the Indiana Pacers. And I just
will found it really interesting because I was wondering, what
does Chris Finch focus on and here is his quote
in the game today. With all that switching, you see,
you need two things. You need passing and you need

(14:28):
ball handling. That's what you need. Everybody wants shooting, but
I think it's the other things that unlock shooting. And
I thought that was so fascinating for a defense first team.
His takeaway from that series is, we need more ball handling,
we need more playmaking, We need more creation on the
offense than as a floor because as we know, when
your offense isn't clicking, that is going to have a

(14:49):
negative effect on your defense.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, it's interesting, I think, especially against that Okay See team,
it's not surprising that I guess I would say that,
like you might index on a bit, you know, multiple
points of attack, just because of how devastating some of

(15:14):
those bulldogs on Okay See can be, you know, having
guys and like, that's a big way I felt about,
you know, this this playoff run for the Cavs is
you know, having you know, we talked about it even
in the Miami series when they were playing Ocoro and
Wade out at the same time, having guys who aren't
going to make quick, assertive decisions with the ball and

(15:39):
that aren't a threat with the ball. If the if
the jumper isn't falling, you know, is is just kind
of death for your offense. And you know, I do think,
like I do think in general, when you taught, when

(16:02):
you listen to coaches like Chris Finch and you listen
to you know, and you listen to fans, I feel
like the conversation is flying in the opposite direction. Fans
want to figure out how to get stops. Coaches are
trying to figure out how to score. And like that's
why I think I have continued to kind of lean

(16:27):
in on the offensive identity of the team just because
it's like, like I felt like they got enough stops
to win. Really in the last two three years, it's
just been that consistent rhythm offensively that like they haven't
been able to find they have They've always reverted to

(16:47):
the one or two ball handlers that are initiating everything.
And to Chris Finch's point, like that's just easier to
game plan against.

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, And you know, obviously the injuries had some impact
on that. You had Darius missing games flat out and
then you know, playing through that that toe injury. Donovan Mitchell.
You could tell his mobil ability was impacted after that
cast rain in Game two, and it just felt like
we weren't able to generate that playmaking right like Indy

(17:19):
wasn't sending help. They were daring Donovan to to kind
of beat them one on one to you know, not
to take away those easy kickout passes that the Cavs
offense really feats off of. And then ty Jerome just
wasn't able to turn the corner. And it's kind of
ironic because part.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Of that metaphorical or literal corner a little bit.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
Both the irony is when you look at that series
and the way that the injuries played out and the
limitations on both Mitchell and Garland physically that trade deadline move.
We probably could have benefited from Karros laverd in that series,
like his playmaking. Obviously we've seen up and downs of
the play in the playoffs for Karris Lavert, but in

(18:03):
terms of skills that they really needed that additional ball handler.
And I find it fascinating because if you look at
the last seven years, and this counts both finalists for
this year, there is no consistent way any of these
teams have been built you know, for all the conversations
about what you need to learn from a team building standpoint,
and you know what types of players you need to

(18:25):
win with. We're going to see seven straight years where
teams built very different ways one NBA championships. But the
one kind of consistent thing I think you see with
all of these teams is they are able to generate offense.
They are able to get playmaking from multiple positions. Boston
no traditional point guard. I think that's why you see
some of the volatility with them on the offensive end

(18:47):
of the court, but they had five guys in that
lineup that were able to generate offense. Indy we saw
tons of that. Oka See has that right, like Shay's
able to do it obviously, Alex Caruso coming in off
the bench, Jalen Williams is a good playmaker, Hernstein's a
good playmaker. Wiggins and Wallace are able to do that
at a solid level.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
And well, Okay, to see I think is maybe not
exactly a wonder you know. I'm not that you're making
the case that they're a one to one, but like
I do think they're a team where their defense is
so bananas and they have a lead star. That's so good,
But they think almost feel like a little bit more
of a throwback. But you're right, they sure attack from

(19:28):
a lot of different spots, right.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
And the interesting thing is, even though these teams are
you know, built differently, how they get that playmaking is
also different. Right, Like the Warriors staff Draymond Andrea was
still playing for them, Jordan Poole was able to provide
some playmaking the Bucks Giannis Drew and and Dante DiVincenzo
in that year, Chris Middleton actually had a pretty high
assist rate and was able to generate some offense for them.

(19:52):
Denver Joki, Murray Brown, Aaron Gordon was able to run
some offense. Reggie Jackson was able to run some offense. Right,
how many guys did you you feel confident in that
the Cavs could go to from a playmaking standpoint like?
That was my big takeaway from you know, the Boston
series and it remains mine now. Obviously we've talked about
how mobiley needed to be used more in those spots,

(20:14):
but when the guards are limited, like you just didn't
have anybody else you could really rely on in that spot,
Max Struce, you you can you can you know, make
the argument that he's kind of in that case in Wallace,
Aaron Wiggins, you know, like that can provide that secondary playmaking.
But whether it is hey, we need to use our

(20:34):
guys differently because we believe that they can provide that playmaking,
or hey, we need to bring in someone that's going
to be able to supplement that a little bit and
provide that from the front court, it just felt like
the initiation was too backcourt heavy in that series.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Sure, and you're right, and we've talked about a lot,
like I'll gripe about the way Mobiley was used in
the way he used himself in that series for you know,
The Seeable Future. But I will say this stuff does
roll down hill, and like if Shay and Jalen have

(21:11):
really bad games or are hurt, then I think, And
we're seeing Alex Caruso initiating more, and we're seeing Aaron
Wiggins have to initiate more, and we're seeing Chet Holmgren
try to run inverted pick and rolls, Like, yeah, they'll they'll,
they'll get decent looks every now and again, but we

(21:32):
will go, oh man, they probably haveing to rely on
those guys too much. So like there is a degree
where like, if Darius and Donmo are playing well, are
we having discussions about the team needing more playmaking outside
of mobiley? I don't think. Hold on, let me get
through this. I think Struce as the fourth or fifth

(21:54):
best playmaker on the floor is a great outcome. I
think DeAndre Hunter as the fourth best playmaker on the
floor is a great outcome. I just don't think that
the Cavs played a style that allowed those guys to
look that way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
Well, let's bring it to a point that I think
we can both agree with. If Chris Finch with much
better defensive personnel that we have and you know, a
worse defensive outcome than we had against the Pacers, if
his takeaway is we need more ball handling, we need
more playmaking, then the takeaway from this season shouldn't be Hey,
let's swap Darius Garland for Jada McDaniels. Let's swap Darius

(22:31):
Garland for Jalen Suggs, who is fifth on the magic
in a SIS percentage, Like, if you're going that direction, honestly,
you should just start a coral like because he neither
player is going to give you any ball handling or
playmaking or be able to run an offense. Coral is
at least taller, he's a better shooter, and he's going
to give you the same defense. If you're going to
punt that other guard position, just go with a Coral.

(22:53):
But you know, like, but it's disrespectful. I know it's
been disrespected. True, No, it absolutely is true. It's the
macro is true. But Jalen Suggs has more juice. The
macro is all I need to get the joke off.
But if that's your takeaway, what the Caves need to write.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
The takeaway that the Calves should get less ball handling
and more on ball defense is not the solve I
would pick. If you want to, if you want to
say that the Calves could use more front court initiation,
uh and things like that. You know, and you're interested
in that kind of thing. Okay, I could see it,

(23:35):
but you know, that's not really what Jaden McDaniels is.
It's not really what Jalen Suggs is in the front.
You know the ways that they would initiate, and you
know there are things those guys do, even on offense,
that the Calves don't exactly do. But I just don't
know if you want to build the plane out of it.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
No, No, you're I'm not going into this season trying
to find less help, right. You always want to get
more help, and that's why tools like zoom Ai and
Companion are so important. Only you can do your best
work harder, zoom Ai Companion can help you do the rest,
like automatically taking notes, answering meeting questions, and helping you
respond to your coworker. Available at no additional cost with
eligible paid plans. We're happy with zoom Ai Companion. It's interesting, man,

(24:21):
because from a team building standpoint, like we talked about
with the Aprons, there's not a lot of options that
in terms of major shakeups for the cast, right, Like
if you're looking at Darius trades, the fact that guys
like a Jalen Sugs or Drew Holiday are you know,
in that range goes to show you, like a one
for one swap, you're downgrading. Not only from a town standpoint,

(24:42):
you're just getting worse as a team. But if we
kind of concede that, hey, we're not able to make
those kind of dramatic change ups, the changes have to
come with how they approach the game on both offense
and defense if you're going to make changes, and it
also has to come in terms of how you deplay
guys from a rotation standpoint. And you know, as much

(25:03):
as people talk about the small backcourt, that's not a
Darius Garland thing. That's a Donovan Mitchell thing because he's
undersized for his position, and while we like his ability
and we think he's grown as a playmaker, even by
his own emission, he prefers playing with a point guard.
He's not a point guard. He's not someone that you're
going to ask to run your offense at all times.
So in that, you know, with that understanding, you're always

(25:27):
going to have a bit of a small backcourt unless
you're building around, you know, a Lebron James or Nikola
Jokic where he can play in that Jamal Murray role,
which I think you wouldn't do a much better job
of because he's better than Jamal Murray. But you know
what I find interesting is all right, so if we
understand that, and we also understand that that starting lineup
had a one oh seven defensive rating against the Pacers,

(25:49):
so defense of that lineup was not the issue. It's
going to come down to how they use the rotation.
Do they make changes in terms of, you know, who's
starting at the three, who's the the sixth, seventh, eighth man.
Those kinds of decisions I think are going to be
the most important thing when it comes to how the
Calves approach this offseason.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Yeah. I just do think like this is a I
hope that when you talk about the lessons that the
team chooses to take away from this season, I hope
that it's not just an injury conversation within that doubting staff.
I'll be surprised if it is.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
Well, I think we can almost assume that it's not,
because when you listen to those exit interviews, that wasn't
what the takeaway was, right Like, it's, hey, we got
to we gotta get mentally tougher, we got to get
the experience, we got to get better.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
So you could interpret mentally tougher as just do what
our plan was, but better, you know, you could interpret
it that way. I do think the fact that, you know,
Kenny felt like they had enough talent wise to win
that series, and I believe he said as much, like,
you know, we didn't lose that series because of the injuries.

(27:02):
So I think is what he said. Yeah, you know,
I think that tells me that there is some you know, uh,
you know, some disappointment with the Encourt product. But it
is always going to be a question in terms of
choosing what lessons to learn. Was this an execution problem?
Was this a talent problem? Or was this a schematic problem?
And you know, I think you you know, in the unfortunately,

(27:25):
answer is always going to be yes. It was all
three of those things, Like, you know, more talent could
probably paper over or you know, healthier talent could have
papered over schematic and execution problems. Better execution would solve
for talent, and schematics, better schematics would solve for execution.
And so it's like this, you know, this unholy triumvirate

(27:47):
of of of you know, basketball that you're never going
to have like a cut and dry thing, you know,
very you know, the Knicks series was kind of this
like very special exception where all you had to do
was watch and go shooting please, and you kind of
know that's like the main thing, and you're not going

(28:08):
to get better data till you have that. Like in
this it's a much more gray area. So I don't
know if we can assume that Kenny was like my
scheme let us down. Now, maybe I'm just showing what
my assumption is. And you know, the interesting thing, like
I think why you're seeing the Knicks basically have an
existential crisis here is because they were in a position.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Last year in the playoffs where they thought we lost
because of injuries. We would have beat the Pacers if
we were healthy. They go into this offseason and they
make dramatic changes. They think that they improve their roster.
So now you have an improved roster from what you
thought was going to beat the Pacers the year before,
you bringing in that more talent. You're healthy in the
playoffs against the Pacers, and you look completely outclassed and outmatch,

(28:53):
which goes back to what I was saying before, which
is even you know, if we disagree on what you
think this year's series would have been if you're healthy,
I'm saying we as in myself and the listener, if
even if that's the case, I think we can both
agree that it doesn't necessarily mean anything moving forward. Every
year is its own kind of ecosystem. Every team is different.

(29:16):
You can't make assumptions on who's going to be better,
who's going to be worse, And of course, like after
the last couple of years, I'm going to have concerns.
I'm going to have concerns on whether or not both
guards are going to be able to make it to
the playoffs healthy, if they're able to make it through
the playoffs healthy. But you know, those are answers that
we can't really have right now, so you focus on
everything else and God, go ahead, no, no, no, no,

(29:41):
that was an end I was just going to ramble on. Anyways.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Well, yeah, that's where I just kind of get back
to the scheme stuff on both sides of the floor.
And that's why I kind of set up the the
you know, the ball and the tee without taking a
cut at it. You know, I kind of said, should
they wonder about scheme? And like, I guess my final
takeaway that I have right now is that they should.

(30:07):
I do think they should really be evaluating how they
attacked that series against Indy, what they asked their guys
to do over the course of the season, and comparing
it against what they did against Indy. And you know,
it's funny because on either end of the ball, I
kind of feel the opposite way I feel on offense.

(30:27):
And and you know people heard me say this on
our last weeks at pod and the postgame pod after
Game five, that I thought the Cavs scheme all year
was fine and then they just stopped doing it. Yeah,
you know, they stopped running, you know, letting mobilely initiate offense.
They stopped doing all the varied stuff that made them

(30:49):
so interesting and in challenging the guard. You know, they
stopped playing with pace blah blah blah blah blah. Like
I would, I would say that, knowing what I know,
which is very little, a very small window into what
was going on in that locker room, that it felt
like their execution failed them more than their scheme failed them,

(31:11):
like they stopped doing the things the coaches had them
doing all year on offense. On defense, I actually am
more inclined to blame the scheme. I think the switching,
the soft switching, which if you are you know, someone
who listens to this podcast regularly, you know, me and
you had our little back and forths about this over

(31:33):
the year, where you wanted more resistance, you wanted more
physicality at the point of attack, and I was on
team the shell's good enough, just don't screw up. And
I think we saw the limits of my point of
view on that in that series where the shell started
to break. You know, the shell was more fragile against

(31:56):
more talented teams, and you know, and then it was
gimmick town from there. You know, it was the three
too that worked for you know, a quarter or two
and then was solved. And I do think like there
should be some hard looks on that end of the
floor about how you know, not to be reductive, but

(32:20):
it does. I do wonder if the eighty if the
if the soft switching strategy moving its way into the
playoffs was an eighty two game kind of strategy. You know,
that's a strat that works awesome against Charlotte in February
or even a good team in March when they're not

(32:40):
that you know, the sharpness isn't there to just beat
it up over and over and over again. And I'm
curious what you think about that.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
I agree, and I know I mentioned this on the
last podcast, but I feel like from a defensive performance standpoint,
I don't think we've ever played better than our personnel.
Like I think people will discredit our personnel because you know,
some of the perimeter guys are undersize, you know, but
this is still a team that year over year performs

(33:14):
well in the defensive end. I think obviously the impact
of Evan Mobile and Jared Allen has a massive part
in that. But these guys are a little better than
they get credit for. And the thing about you know,
the saw switch is I just feel like it's a
passive approach to defense. I feel like we have sat
back in our shell and we have trusted our personnel

(33:34):
to do the work, and for the most part, they have.
But when you look at how teams have disrupted our offense,
it's by making us uncomfortable. And I think when you
look at the playoffs, one of the takeaways that I
have is depth is actually mattering. In this year's playoffs,
teams are running deeper rotations, and they're using those deeper

(33:57):
rotations to play a little more aggressive. If you're going
to play nine to ten guys, I want those guys
playing really hard in those nine ten minutes. I want
to see you pressure full court a little bit more.
If you guys are if you're giving them breaks at
every you know, six minutes and you're properly using the
rotation like Kenny did all season, it feels like it's

(34:17):
low hanging fruit to be a little more aggressive when
it comes to that end of the floor, to to
you know, pressure, to to blitz a little bit more,
to to force guys out of their rhythm. Whereas when
you're playing and you're trusting the you know, individual defense,
and you're trusting the integrity of your defensive system, you're
giving people the matchup that they want without making them

(34:40):
work for it. They know what to expect from your
defense every single time up and down the court. Now,
the defense may still be able to get those stops
because of the defensive personnel that you have, but if
they know what to expect all the time, I just
feel like you are not making teams uncomfortable enough. And
I think I think that's why when you saw those

(35:01):
dramatic changes, like okay, we're going to go to a
three to two zone here, because it was such a
dramatic deviation, it took time to you know, adjust to that.
Where I think everything they did defensively this year they
could do again next year and it would be great.
But if you're you know, if you're playing shuffle on
Spotify when it comes to your defensive coverages and what

(35:22):
you're throwing at teams and changing things up and relying
on your guys to be more active communicators to do that.
I think that that's something that I would like to
see them work on throughout the regular season because I
think you need to practice that over eighty two games
in order to be able to do that at a
championship level. And that's what indeed does. They press shuffle

(35:44):
on every playoffensively and defensively, and they are ready to
play that same style when it comes to the playoffs.

Speaker 1 (35:49):
You know, it's interesting as you're talking about that, it
does remind me again they did do this against Miami.
You know, they did it against a less talented team,
and so like maybe there was a little bit of
a like, I don't know, like over respect of the
pacers of like we can't get in the blender with them. Yeah,

(36:10):
but like.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
Maybe they didn't do Maybe they didn't do that against
Indy because Donovan's banged up, Darius is out, and you know,
maybe you know, Tie's not going to be able to
play that style. Maybe I think the more important thing
is you got to practice that all season.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yeah, sure, But like I guess what I'm saying is,
think about like the way that they said, Jarrett, we
want you to challenge every catch for their bigs on
the way out. What's to stop them from doing that
to Pascal Siakam, to Miles Turner, especially Myles Turner who
can't dribble, like you know what, what is to stop
them from from playing with that kind of pressure and

(36:45):
that kind of physicality on the catch? What's to stop
them from full court pressing? Like they just kind of
didn't do any of that. You know, it was just
like all right, let Hallie chase whatever switch he wanted,
you know, either get a blowby or a very clean
step back, you know, rinse repeat, rinse repeat, rinse repeat

(37:05):
and again. It's not like Indy absolutely murdered the Calves
on the offensive side of the ball. So, like I
am not, I don't want to over index on this
because at the end of the day, I do think
they lost this series on the offensive side of the floor.
I mean, and Andy had a one sixteen offensive rating.
That's not like bananas, but worse than it was against

(37:29):
the Knicks. Yeah, but I do think getting it you know,
like that more than the sum of their parts. Thing
for you is just spot on, Like I don't know
if this defense that consistently makes teams feel them and
you know, I think a guy like it's interesting. Remember

(37:53):
right after when Yannis said that he felt like the
Calves were a harder defense to play than okay, see yeah,
and we kind of all puffed up our chests like, yeah,
we are tough, you know, and if you really like,
you know, peel that back a layer or two. It's like,
of course, trying to beat up Jannisnatokumpo is not a

(38:14):
winning strategy, you know. And of course the team that
tries to beat him up, he's like, I don't care
about that at all. I'm the biggest, strongest, most athletic
guy in the league at that at beating that particular style.
What's hard for him is having to finish over the shell,
you know. But like for you know, it's like, we're

(38:35):
the defensive scheme is almost Taylor made to beat those
kinds of offenses, not you know, even the k the
Denvers of the world. You know, think about how well
they guarded Denver with that style. So like, to some extent,
there are This is a bit of a you know,
this is the styles make fights thing, and a more physical,

(38:56):
violent defense isn't going to work as well against the
Milwaukee's or the Denvers of the world. But like, being
able to do both is pretty valuable. And I just
don't know, you know it, it's just funny to think
about that comment. And you know how geeked I was
to hear him say that. It's like, yeah, that's great

(39:17):
for your honest, but it doesn't work against the Pacers,
you know, it doesn't always work against the Boston Celtics,
you know. So, like you have to have just as
the offense needs to think about diversifying themselves and coming
with all these you know, more playmaking in the front court,
I think the defense really needs to put on a
similar cap of like how are we going to kill

(39:39):
teams in eight different ways as opposed to just being
really really stable and solid at one.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
Yeah, and you know, this isn't to say it's a problem,
but when the goal is winning a championship, you want
to look at where you can gain advantages in the margins. Right,
if we tweak our style of play on the defensive
end of the court, is it going to give us
a large margin for error. Is it going to help
make teams more uncomfortable? And I think when it comes
to the you know, the soft switching, I just feel

(40:07):
like we don't have the personnel that makes it necessary
to do that. And you know, you and I aren't
lucky enough to have Synergy accounts. But Basketball Index does
pull a lot of that information from Synergy, and I
thought it was really interesting to dive into two very
important metrics when it comes to our perimeter defenders. And
those metrics are perimeter isolation defense, which is the measure

(40:29):
of how well a defender's lower shot quality and suppresses
attempts within perimeter isolation defense adjusted for the average skill
level of the offensive players guarded. So you know, if
someone's guarding someone for you know, twelve minutes and they
go four or five, if you're just looking at you know,
how do they shoot against them, that's not telling the

(40:50):
full story, right, So this actually uses that tracking data
to see how well you not only suppress those shots,
but how you do in guarding those shots. What's the
outcomes there? And then the same thing goes for ball
screen navigation, which is the measure of how well defender
lower shot quality and suppresses attempts on ball screens. Again,
it is adjusted for matchup difficulty, So you know, if

(41:14):
someone like Jalen Brunson, who you know, gets parked on
an Isaac Ocoro and they don't score, you're going to
get dinged for that. In these metrics you look at
matchup difficulty, Brunson's in the fifth percentile in terms of
who he's guarding. Steph is in the eighth, Halley's in
the third, even Shay is in the fourteenth because okay, see,
you know, tries to save them on that end of
the floor. So any questions before I dive into these

(41:36):
number of cards, do do you like these stats? Do
you do you like the data here?

Speaker 1 (41:40):
Absolutely, buddy, go ahead, Okay.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
So the other thing I wanted to look at is,
you know, if we're looking at it by percentile, it's
great to be in the fiftieth percentile or you know,
fifty fifth percentile, you're above average, But how many are
actually having a positive impact when it comes to perimeter
isolation defense. The sixty seventh percent is the break even point,
So two thirds of the league are having at least

(42:03):
a slight negative effect on perimeter isolation defense for ball
screen navigation, the break even point is the fifty nine percentile.
So when you look at the calves, a lot of
their guys, when they look at the tracking data and
the impact, you know that they actually have graded out
not only you know, above average, but positive when it

(42:25):
comes to both of these metrics. DeAndre Hunter is in
the eighty nine percentile in isolation, seventy fifth in screen
s truce, eighty second in ISO, sixty ninth in screen okoro,
eighty eight percentile in ISO, ninety third in screen navigation.
These guys all navigate screens incredibly well. Darius Garland eighty
six percentile in perimeter isolation defense and eightieth percentile when

(42:49):
it comes to that screen navigation. The only guys that
have some negative where they're below average. Sam Merrill of
you know, slight negative fifty fifth percentile in isolation, but
that's still above average. It's as a slight negative in
isolation that goes to show you how well he's been
playing on defense and that screen navigation, which we talked

(43:11):
about all season. We thought he did a terrific job.
Ninety third percentile in screen navigation. The only player on
the roster that has a slight negative impact on both
of those is Donovan Mitchell. He's fifty sixth in isolation
and fifty six in screen navigation. I don't worry about
that as much because we've seen he can turn up

(43:32):
that defense of intensity in the moments where it really counts.
He saves himself a little bit, and in both of
those metrics he's still above average when it comes to
league average. And then Ty Jerome seventy fourth percentile in
perimeter defense, forty eighth in screen navigation. So that's the
only spot out of all those guys where someone is
actually a negative below league average is Ti Jerome navigating screens.

(43:55):
But all of these guys are capable and have been
effective when they're putting up resistance in those situations.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, it's I mean, on one hand, it's encouraging, and
some of those numbers are, you know, really impressive. I mean,
having a Hunter up there at the eighty nine, you know,
Garland up at the eighty sixth, struce in the in
the upper eighties or the lower eighties, I don't know
what what's your takeaway from that, like, because like, on

(44:24):
one hand, you see a lot more really strong ISO
defending numbers and some more like average screen navigation by comparison, like,
does that speak to they should be doing this switching
strategy a little more often and the numbers don't actually
play to what we think. I don't really agree with that,

(44:47):
but I mean, what's your takeaway?

Speaker 2 (44:49):
Well, I think you know, because this is the result
of how they played defensively last year. It backs up
the fact that, hey, this is actually effective.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
Right.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
The two things you see on the perimeter are ball
screens and basically isolations. So you can see ball screens
to get you to isolations, right. So that's why I'm
really looking at these two metrics. But to me, the
margins are so small when it comes to playoff basketball.
If you're giving a little bit of foll core press
and that takes three seconds off of the shot clock,

(45:20):
that's a win for the defense. If you're fighting the
screen and you are okay, let's let's get Darius to
fight through these screens and navigate it. Let's get it
with Max Roofs and DeAndre Hunter. If the offense is
forced to rescreen multiple times to get that match up,
and then you have confidence that if they eventually do
get you know, the mismatch that they want. You feel

(45:42):
confident that someone like Darius can you know, match up
with a Jason Tatum and at least, you know, can
test the shot and force them to not get to
the rim. That's a positive. But because you force them
to do two three screens, you're making them use up
energy on the offensive end of the floor, and I
think it's going to actually increase the effectiveness of these numbers.

(46:02):
So that that would be my argument for it is
just not conceding the matchup that the offensive team wants
so freely. You shouldn't be able to get, you know,
Tyres Halbern onto Jared Allen that easy, and particularly when
it comes to these guard you know, perimeter to perimeter screens.
I want Boston to fight to get Jason Tatum onto

(46:24):
Darius Garland. I don't want to just say, all right, Darius,
you're you're guarding Tatum on every single possession. You you've
guarded him more than any other player this season, Like
no player has contested more Jason Tatum shots this season
than Darius Garland. That shouldn't be the case. As much
as Boston wants to get that matchup.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, I think that's all very very fair. And like
the other thing I'll say is, so you look up
and down that list and super impressive and you go,
oh man, all these guys in the eightieth percentile are better.
Must have been a top two, top three defense, wasn't
It was an eighth defense, you know, not horribly far

(47:08):
from you know, a top five defense, but still two
points per one hundred possessions worse than their league leading
defense two years ago. And so I do think it's
kind of worth like pointing at the some of the
parts question, you know, because like you add all the

(47:29):
you add all those parts. If your scheme is killing
it with all those great numbers, you would think that
you'd have a really really you know, shutdown defense. And
even with even though the defense performed better this year
than last year by the numbers ranked lower but a
better defensive rating, I do feel like some of that

(47:51):
soft switching and that like lack of force on that
end of the floor did lead to my feeling like
this defense wasn't as strong as it has been in
years past. And I agree with that. And it's hard
to know because the offense was so bananas that, like
you know, it was always going to feel worse by comparison.

(48:15):
But I do think there's some meat on that.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Bone for that coaching staff, and I think some of
it might also come down to the rotation, right, Like
when you look at the differences between this team and
that team, we played more three guard lineups than that
team did, even though we had some undersized wings. You
are playing two of the guys that were at least
below you know, negative impact went when it comes to

(48:38):
isolation defense and that screen navigation. Zam Merrill and ty Jerome,
both of those guys were playing a good amount. Like
you look at the playoffs, zam Merrill played fifty five
minutes where he was either playing with Darius and Tie
Donovan or Tie or Darius and Donovan. So that's fifty
five minutes that he played small forward. You know many

(48:59):
minutes DeAndre Hunter played with Darius and Donovan at small forward. Six.
You're talking about nine times more that you're playing a
three guard lineup with Samuel at small ford. And to
his credit, those lineups were effective even in the playoffs,
they were effective. But my thing is, if you're going
to make yourself feel different on the defensive end of

(49:19):
the floor, you got to change some of that stuff.
You can't have a three guard lineup where you know,
if Indy goes to a three guard lineup, that's a
lot of guys that can create you know, there's a
lot of ball movement and stuff like that. When you
had Donovan and Darius limited and Sam's not able to
initiate offense, that's a three guard lineup without you know,
the typical offense of characteristics that you would expect to

(49:40):
come along with a three guard lineup.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah. And also Tie just I mean, was just a
total pumpkin in that series. Like you know, I think
it makes it all feel a lot worse up and down,
and like Tie is probably the only kind of exception
I would say to the rule of like of the
of the stuff rolling downhill kind of theory with role players,

(50:04):
Like I think he was just bad at an individual level,
you know, Like.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
I understand you think it's something he can learn from.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
Yeah, I understand that, Like you know, down the roster,
it's sometimes the role player output is symptomatic of you know,
your stars not being there. Like I just think Ty
just had a bad series, which I honestly think there's
more peace in that and more data to learn from
in that like and also and like for me, I

(50:31):
feel like he'll you know, the chance of him having
a series like that again. I actually feel really strong
that he's going to figure it out and learn from
this about like what it means to be on a
Rick Carlisle scout and and just you know, and play better.
Like again, he kind of found his footing at the
end of Game five where he finally was able to

(50:52):
start making a bit of an impact again. So it's
funny with how good he was against Indian in the
regular season time now, so it's I just can't think
get past the three guard thing and you know, the
sam at the three thing. Does it? Are we just

(51:13):
being dumb jerks because the lineup data was good in
both instances, and if everything else was going better, it
would just be fine.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
I think maybe I should clarify my point. I'm not
saying that this is a problem. I'm saying if we
want to change how it feels to play against the
Cleveland Cavaliers, that's something that you have to consider. And honestly,
I would be fine with both of those guys back
on the you know, on the roster next season. I
just think that maybe that's one of those, you know,
considerations you have to have going into free agency, where

(51:42):
you know the pitch might be, hey, there's some games
you're not going to play because we're trying to play
a little bit bigger. We're trying to change up how
we're playing at the small forward position. Because Sam Merrill
he played way better than any of my expectations. I
don't think that guy deserves any blame, whether it's him
playing at small ford or not. Like he played. You
look at Cleaning the Glass and says seventy three percent
of his minutes came at small forward this season. I

(52:04):
think he held up incredibly well there.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
He held up.

Speaker 2 (52:07):
Incredibly well in the regular season, he held up well
in the playoffs. He did a great job defensively, you
know on guys like Tyler Hero, he stepped up. I
don't think he deserves any blame for how this season went.
I just feel like, hey, there might have to be
a decision when you're prioritizing what moves you can make
in a very limited apron world, are you going to

(52:29):
have to choose between these two? Because if the decision
is hey, maybe rotationally yes, well rotationally yes, but both
of these guys are free agents, which is why I
think this is actually a conversation because if the decision
ends up being, hey, we're going to let Tye walk,
We'll find you know, another veteran backup point guard. But
we're bringing back Sam Merrill and he's coming in as

(52:51):
you know, the shooting guard, and Donovan Mitchell is back
to being the backup point guard. I'm one hundred percent
fine with that. If the decision is, hey, we're bringing
Tie back. He gives us so much much juicy, makes
us better in the regular season. We believe he can
learn from it. I'm great with that. If you bring
both and back and the pitches, hey, there's going to
be some nights you're not playing, it's going to be

(53:12):
a little more tenuous. And both of them buy into
that and they're willing to sacrifice for the team. That
is a huge bonus because both of these guys were
terrific for the Calves.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, it's you know, it's going to be pretty interesting
because I think both have earned their way back to
you know, there's there have been there have been pending
free agents that I'm you know, happy to help walk,
you know, help happy to help drive to the airport.
Over the history of this Calves team, you know guys

(53:43):
that you go, even if you had a good time
with them, it was you know, it was like you
knew it was just time for a change. Like you know,
Jetty was like that. I really loved Jetty as a cavalier,
but like you knew, it kind of run its course
and it was time to try something else. I don't
feel that way about Sam or Tie. But if you're
looking to like change the alchemy of the roster a

(54:07):
little bit, it's pretty hard to change it that much
with like your only two free agents and just bringing
them back, especially with trades as challenging as they're going
to be, So like that even isn't going to be
a even it's going to be a consideration where it's
like we're happy with both of you, we'd love both
of you back, but we just don't want to be

(54:28):
so the same for the third or fourth year in
a row.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
It goes back to why I said before, Right, we
have an undersized backcourt because Donald Mitchell is an undersized
shooting guard. I am okay with that, because he is
our best player. He is terrific. We need to have
you know that point guard and you know, you look
at if I look at you know that data for
perimeter isolation defense and ball screen defense, what guards six

(54:53):
four or over are positive defenders in the entire NBA.
Here's the list, Drew Holiday, Jalen Suggs, Anthony Black, and
Bruce Brown.

Speaker 3 (55:03):
That's why we got to get Jalen Suggs justin right,
if you look at point guards six one or taller
that are positive defenders, so Garland's height or more.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Obviously those four still count there. The only additions are
Gabe Vincent obviously, Darius, Maxie, Peyton Pritchard, Isaiah Collier, and
Scottie Pippen Jr. It's a short damn list, Like, honestly, it's.

Speaker 3 (55:27):
A is it?

Speaker 2 (55:29):
I think it's just Collier? Yeah, I don't know why
I went Frank.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
Canadian, Canadian, you're too closed.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
Yeah, you know it's it's not a long list. And
when you look at those guys, like Maxie's the only
one that you're like, okay, Like he can generate a
lot of offense, he can he has a usage you
know that that is comparable to Darius, and Darius had
a better season than him. None of these, Like you
look at those six four guys, none of them can
run an offense, Like Drew doesn't have that in his

(55:56):
game anymore. Anthony black Shirt doesn't it r thing right,
Johannest would take a big part of that responsibility. So
like when you look at this combination of usage and
also like the results of how you did defensively, Darius
is one of the only guys that actually fits that description.
And I you know, I think part of the perception

(56:19):
is because we can see the sauce witch. It's hey,
they're hunting Darius. They're getting the matchup they want, and
it doesn't matter how he holds up in those situations.
Obviously the point guard is going to be involved in
you know, these types of matchups. And you know, I
said how these stats factor in matchup difficulty? Right, and
how you know Brunson Steph Hallie say, they're all you

(56:40):
know down there, Darius is in the sixty nine percentile
for matchup difficulty, Like they they trust him in all
these situations. They don't hide him on the defensive end
of the floor. You look at matchup difficulty, obviously the
leader z Okoro ninety second. Then it goes Max, Wade Hunter,
all of them are fifth or above. Then it's Allan,

(57:02):
which I'm not surprised Alan is ahead of MOBILEI because
we will put Mobiley on a weaker offensive player and
let him roam. You see the same thing with Draymond's
matchup difficulty. Then it's Sam Merrill at the forty first percentile,
Mobiley's forty seventh. I skipped him, and then Donovan is
twenty fourth percentile. So Donovan's the guy that we're resting.
I think that's correct because he carries such a big load.

(57:24):
But it's not like Darius is hiding. It's not like
he's you know, it's not like we aren't tasking him
with these matchups. You look at who he covered the most.
I mentioned, you know, covered a lot of Tatum, it's
Trey Young, it's LaMelo Ball, it's the point guards, it's
these lead initiators. He's been trusted in these situations and
he's held up really well.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
Yeah. I think to your point though, about the you know,
about you know, giving up those off switches a little less,
you know, easily. It's like, yeah, I don't have to
hide Darius, but I don't need to like put him
on the firing line over and over and over again.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Either no, no, And I think I think you see,
like in those Boston matchups, I think part of why
he's not as efficient is and you see he misses
a lot of open shots in those games. I think
part of why he isn't as efficient is he's being
worn out on the offensive end. I think we did
the same thing with Steph Curry in the finals, where
you would see him missshots that he would normally make

(58:25):
and he would wear down because we're trying to involve
him so much defensively. So if we make it a
little bit harder, I think it's going to make life easier.
And I think that this is a roster capable of
doing that. I got one more stat for you, Carter,
because I love this one. Shout out Seth Park now
for coming up with a stat. He has a true
usage rate, So this is your normal usage possession usage rate,

(58:46):
which for those that aren't familiar, usage rate is any
possession that ends with you either turning the ball over
or taking a shot, so the possession ends with you.
True usage is those two stats. Also adding in any
time you create an assist opportunity, so if a shot
ends with you taking a shot, or if a possession
ends with you taking a shot, turning the ball over

(59:08):
or passing to someone that's taking a shot. Darius twenty
second in the league with a true usage rate of
forty nine percent, so when he's on the court, almost
fifty fifty of the possessions are ending with him either
taking a shot, turning it over, or creating an assist opportunity.
There are three players in the league with a true

(59:29):
usage rate that high and a positive impact on the
defensive end when it comes to perimeter defensive ball screen navigation.
Those players are Franz Wagner, Arrius Garland, and Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Pretty good peers, you know.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Like, I just think too much has been made out of,
you know, trying to to bring in, you know, a
low usage defensive wing. I don't want to increase the
usage on Donovan. I think that he and Darius pair
really well together. I think that mobile taking on a
larger share of the offensive load is really important. After that,

(01:00:07):
after those three, I'm open to suggestions, man, Like, I'm
open to seeing what this team can do. But I
just think that people are misdiagnosing what some of the
issues are based on what their preconceived notions were of
this roster and what the issues are. Obviously, we have
concerns when it comes to health. I think if that
doesn't line up next year and it recurs again, I

(01:00:29):
think you got to have some really hard conversations about
both of the guards if both of them are in
that spot once again. But I just think that this
team is talented. It fits incredibly well together. And as
Kobe said, you know in his end of season presser,
if I didn't blow it up after last year, why
would I do it this year?

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Yep, and I tend to agree. Obviously. You got to
keep keep your offictions open. See if anyone, you know,
walks you into a great outcome, you know, thinking about
out what we thought we'd have to give up for
a DeAndre Hunter and what we gave up, you know,
super super disparate outcomes there. So you got to keep hunting,

(01:01:08):
you got to keep looking, and you got to be
an icy dude sometimes. But you know, I think there's
a difference between keeping your mind open and thinking about
ways to get better and you know, hitting a panic button.
It doesn't seem like the ORG is ready to do uh,
to do the latter, and so to that end, really

(01:01:29):
the only thing they can look at is their performance
is their scheme, because I don't think this organization thinks
they have a talent problem. You know, whether they're right
or not, I guess we'll find out. I think we're
both on the answer being no. That means that the
scheme and the execution has to get better or or

(01:01:50):
it's going to, you know, start looking like a talent
problem real fast. Totally agree.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
And I think, you know, the core of what we
want some up is we want the Calves to be
able to impose their will and impose the style of
the game on both ends of the floor. And I
just feel like some of these tweaks are so that
you're just a little less passive when it comes to
the style of play. I want the Calves to be

(01:02:17):
the ones that make the game feel like it's a
Cleveland Cavalier game of basketball. And I felt like in
that series that was Anna Pacers basketball.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
Yep. And I mean, and it's been the problem all
through the playoffs of this entire tenure. So you know,
am I going to pretend like I'm as sure that
they're going to figure out how to do this as
I was two years ago. I'm not, you know, which
is why I keep leaning towards I just don't have

(01:02:47):
better ideas just yet, you know, Like I don't have
an idea that I believe in more than I believe
in this skit, this team figuring it out. But like, yeah,
I mean they are are. I think they're going to
go into this next season's playoffs with you know, dubious
grains of salt poured on on whatever they do in

(01:03:10):
the regular season because of these you know, these identity slips.
I guess we'll call them. I think that's warranted. Honestly,
That's that's the way basketball has always worked in my
entire time watching it as a fan. You know, doubts, people,
you know, uh, picking apart the team, coming up with

(01:03:30):
you know, crazy shake up ideas, stuff like that. That
just comes with the territory. And I'm with you, like,
it's impossible to not look at that occurring again and
not have that be a concern. But to me, the
counterbalance to that is the biggest question that we had,
and I think the most important thing was is Evan
mobily capable of taking the leap and the fact that

(01:03:52):
he's already made, you know, the what I think is
the biggest leap that he needed to make. That gives
me a lot of confidence that that was so such
an important piece that if there wasn't that, I'd be
a little.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
More I'd be a lot more freaked out about how
this season ended.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
But it is indeed a good team.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
I totally agree that the talent is absolutely there. They
just need to be able to do what they do
more consistently. Big thanks to everyone tuning in live on YouTube.
We appreciate you guys. Make sure you like and subscribe.
Click that notification bell so you know when we're going live.
If you're listening via podcasting, you want to support us,
leave us rating or review, subscribe unsubscribed, resubscribe and help
cook those books who want to be part of Chase

(01:04:29):
Down's exclusive discord chat Sindey Screenshaw the view to Chase
down pot at gmail dot com. However you choose to
support as we really do appreciate it. Make sure you
guys are staying safe out there until next time. YO
can