Interview Only w/ David Lesch - Bashar al-Assad, Broken Borders & Baseball - The Chuck ToddCast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Well here at the Chuck Podcast, when you get a

(01:24):
book proposal to interview somebody and the book is called
Dodgers to Damascus, it's almost as if the publication was
trying to identify me as the target's interview e as
a Dodger fan, growing up as a political junkie. Now
policy junkie a story, and this is a biography. The

(01:47):
book itself as a biography of my guest today, David Lesh,
who is who began his studies of the Middle East
by being a prospect for the Los Angeles Dodgers. We'll
let him, I'll it's ways, that's exactly what it was,
that the dream of baseball. Like a lot of of
aspiring baseball players, injuries can sometimes get in the way

(02:10):
of a career. And you use another part of your body,
your brain to pursue another passion, which is what David
Lesh did. And it's a fascinating story. And the book
is fascinating but sort of lessons from baseball to help
resolve the Middle East crisis or crises plural. So David

(02:30):
Lesh joins me now the subject of the book, David,
welcome to the podcast. It's nice to meet you.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Nice to meet you, too, supposed to be. I'm glad
the book sound its way across your desk. That's great.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
So let me ask this what's it? I mean it
is this. You didn't write the book, you participated. It
is an authorized biography. That's it's almost like your.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
You you you.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
I always say it's sort of it's going to be
awkward with It's like you are willing to expose yourself
to the to the world. And I think when you're
when somebody writes a biography of somebody that's still alive, right, You're, You're,
that's a lot of you got to You're You're always
being asked to give more and more. What did it
feel like to read about yourself through a third person?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It was weird. You definitely are identifying the awkwardness of
it for me. In fact, Catherine Nixon Cook, who did
such a wonderful job as an accomplished author, who wrote
this book, and she called me one time she said, David,
I'm having trouble writing the last chapter. And I said why,
and she said, because you're still alive, you know you're That's.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
Wuld be my challenge as a writer if I had
this assignment. You know, you're you're you. You want to
make a conclusion about somebody's life or legacy, and if
they're still alive, how do you word it in a
way that doesn't make them either feel like you're doing
their obituary or you're taking a shot at them.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Well, that my wife is over now, you know, I
can't do anything else. But I'm still active and I
have a lot to look forward to, I hope. But
she did a good job. In fact, the last chapter
is entitled Stay Tuned, which hopefully as a metaphor for
better and bigger things that I can accomplish in my
life as we go forward. In all ways, but it
was a very weird experience, and I was compelled to

(04:19):
be introspective in a way that you know, at this
age of my life, I didn't you know, figure I'd
be doing. And it forced me to look at a
lot of situations throughout my life. It was interesting to
see because she interviewed like fifty sixty you know, colleagues
and friends, family acquaintances, and it was interesting to see

(04:40):
what they thought of me, and which was much better
that I had anticipated, by the way. But so it
was in a writing experience. It was emotional at times
because I had to revisit some periods and events in
my life that you know, had a great deal of
impact in positive and negative ways. But was it was

(05:00):
really I thought, you know, well done by Catherine. A
very positive experience overall.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
So let's talk about what's drawn you to become, you know,
the essentially to do all the scholarship that it takes
to become a Middle East expert. And I always I
put experts in quotes because an expert of what these days, right,
it's almost in some ways you're an anthropologist, right, You're
a civilization. You're trying to understand and what it really

(05:30):
is is. You know, I have my own opinions about
how we just don't people don't understand the history of
the Middle East before nineteen forty eight, right' that's my
largest frustration in sort of the coverage of stuff. But
what drew you to it? Why did you want to
make this your area of expertise?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Well, I struck out it everything else chuck.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
So yeah, oh, there you go. There's the dad pun
striking out there.

Speaker 2 (05:54):
It is no I think as in most cases, and
what I hope I'm doing to some of my students
as a professor now is I had a couple of
wonderful professors after I, you know, flamed out at baseball
with the injury, and I went back to undergrad school
and I had two wonderful, wonderful professors. It was just
pure luck. I was always interested in international relations. Lou

(06:15):
Cantorre and Robert Freeman were the two. They were well
known in the field, and they just turned me on
to a subject that at that time, you know, the
late seventies, early eighties, as you well know, it was
not covered very well or objectively. And so I did
the more I started studying it, and more importantly, when
I started traveling there, I just became enamored with that history,

(06:38):
with the people and why things you know, went off
the track, so to speak. So much in so many
areas in the Middle East. I wanted to understand that
and hopefully later on as I as I hope I've
done in my books to help explain it to an audience.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
So I have a bit of a snarky sort of
take on when it comes to sort of are what
I think is our ignorance about the Middle East, which
is and it comes from being a Jewish American, and
I'm not a very religious person, but I get I've
always felt I've never felt as if that part of
my identity mattered until a whole bunch of other people

(07:16):
want to tell me it's supposed to matter, and I
get sort of if I get my back up, I
joke anytime I hear the word populism, whether it's left
wing populism or right wing populism, I know the first
thing they're doing is coming for the Jews. But you know,
I realize in sort of the in the this began

(07:37):
before October seventh, but certainly post October seventh, the amount
of people that didn't understand the Middle East pre nineteen
forty eight, and that really the biggest problem we had
generationally was and then it realized, well, how are we
taught World War One and World War Two. And I

(07:58):
think about World War One and we're I'm guessing you
had a similar grade school experience that I did. You're
a little bit older than me, but we basically, I think,
you know, probably that fairly consistent education there, which was
we're taught World War One through the prison of World
War Two. You know, we screwed Germany too much, made
him angry and it started the Second War. We never

(08:19):
talk about the other part of World War One, which
was the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and the fact
that in some ways, and a couple as I joke,
a couple of drunk Frenchmen and Brits decided to draw
straight lines and say you get a country you don't
you do?

Speaker 2 (08:33):
You know?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
And all of a sudden it's the United States. It's
left to deal with this mess. Again I'm being it's
a bit of a snark, but it's it does get
at what I think is the root issue of our
misunderstanding of a lot of the Middle East issues, which
is not understanding how it all broke apart after the
Ottoman Empire.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah, exactly. My pet peeve is that Americans in general,
Westerners especially Americans, had this telescopic view toward the Middle East,
and we need a microscopic view, and the telescopic view
is quite prejudiced and biased in many different directions.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Incomplete, absolutely, and complete is the best description I think.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, and you need that microscopic view. But in today's
especially as time has gone on, in today's media, as
you will know, and sound bites and social media and
so forth, people want information in small bytes and small packets,
and even foreign leaders, you know, they want that one
page brief, less than one page brief instead of reading
a whole executive summary, even of a particular problem, especially

(09:35):
a country like the United States, which has so many
issues all over the world and responsibilities and objectives. If
we're a president, to focus on one single thing and
really understand it is very very unusual unless they have
a background in it. But yeah, I mean the Automan Empire.
You talk about the two drawing Frenchmen that Jordan was
always said a joke was that Winston Churchill had a

(09:58):
hiccup and drew that partage ordinate sticks out. But the
reality is it was to connect pipelines from the Version
Gulf to the Mediterranean Sea. So there was all strategic
reasons behind all of this. And one of the things
people understand, I think the British and the French obviously
allied on the Tient powers in World War One, but
they always saw each other as potential enemies.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
After the war, they were competing for pieces of the
Middle East.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Right exactly, And so you know, Syke's Pico and all
these infamous secret wartime agreements were always you know, from
each side aimed at the other for what they hope
would be victory and defeating the central Powers, including the
Ottoman Empire. But you're right, I mean, the fall of
the Ottoman Empire is sort of glossed over, and it's
the Eurocentric orientalist view of World War One and what

(10:44):
happened with the artificial divisions in the Middle East.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Well, you know, it's interesting. This is also this week
is the anniversary of Panamanian independence, and essentially Panamanian independence
came because Teddy Roosevelt kind of deal because he wanted
to a strip of land to build animal canal. So
they basically created Panamanian independence, right, And it reminds me
of sort of how the Europeans dealt with the Middle East.

(11:08):
It's the same way the United States has dealt with
Latin America essentially for the last hundred years, which is
what can you do in the region for us, not
what can we do for you in the region. Is
that a simplistic view, But is that how you would
sort of describe sort of the Eurocentric relationship with the
Middle East over the last hundred years.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, I thought you were going to say, not the
one hundred year but the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration,
as we were there to that coming up too, agreements,
But yeah, absolutely. I mean, all countries act in their
own national interests and if they have leverage in terms
of those interests, that are going to exercise that leverage.
And what Israel has done, you know, ever since it

(11:49):
came into being in nineteen forty eight, and what all
countries do the British, the French, the Americans, the Russians,
and without taking into consideration or very much consideration, the
wants and needs of the local populations other than that
which will feed their own strategic interests. And so that's
that's very very true. And it's you know, the countries

(12:11):
in the Middle East, they lack in many ways in
national identity, They lack, the rulers lack legitimacy. A lot
of that goes all the way back to the artificiality
of the heartland of the Middle East.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
We just created monarchies right out of these tribal leaders.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Right monarchies and so called Arab republican regimes that act
like monarchies because they want to be. You know, the
Mcadafi and Nasir and Mobark and Asad, they all want
to be. They all wanted to be and were in
some cases succeeded by their sons, so they turned out
to be monarchies in effect.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
So who did you have which aside did you have
did you start to strike up I don't want to
say relationship, but sort of a conversation with.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Yeah, that was Bashar al Assad, who came to power
in two thousand after his father died. And you know,
I'd been going to Syria quite some time, and and
you know, I like to consider myself a Middle Eat
specialist in media trant areas, but Syria's is definitely my
number one specialty. And I traveled the ore over thirty
thirty five times over the years, and so I knew

(13:17):
I had a pretty good network in Syria. Particularly in
mine academics, and when Oside came to power in two thousand,
he brought academics into the government, which some fought as
you know, hope for the future, others I was.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Just going to say, there was a brief period where
they thought maybe he'll be a modernizer, maybe he'll be
king using right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Exactly, yeah, and or a faisal in Saudi Arabi even
the back day in the seventies, and and you know
he was young. He liked Western music, he liked Western
you know, technological toys. You know, he was a computer nerd.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
And everyone was educated in London, right educated.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
He received you know, he was trying to get his
what is essentially his Boord certification ophalmology in London. But
people have to remember he only spent you know, two
years in London. And even though he liked the Electric
Light Orchestra and Phil Collins and the Beatles, you know,
his upbringing was molded by, you know, being a child
of the ar of Israeli conflict, a child of the

(14:10):
super power conflict when Syria was on the side of
the Soviet Union in Russia, and most most importantly, a
child of Hafaz Alalasad, his father, who had a very
particular brand of authoritarianism in Syria. So those are the
things that shaped his worldview. And I was very interested in,
you know, his transition from enthalmologists to ruler. And so
I contacted one of these academics he brought in who

(14:32):
happened to be the good friend of mine, who was
in the Minister of Higher Education, and said, hey, you know,
I like to write a book on him. Can I
meet with Charlasad? And that's how it all started, and
a couple of years later, in two thousand and four,
came into being.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
He's done this with a few Americans over the years,
like he seems to constantly. You know, there's there's been
a handful of Americans that I feel like I've had
that he does want to reach out to the Western side.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
Yeah, yeah, and so timing, Yeah, when you reached out
to me in two thousand and four through his ambassador
to the United States, he was also a friend of mine.
It was not a coincidence at that time because it
was right after the US led invasion of Iraq and
Syria was slowly turning into a target, not slowly, actually

(15:20):
quickly turning into a target. Whereas before the invasion, right
after nine to eleven, American officials were saying Syria was
helping to save lies with intelligence cooperation on al Kaeda.
After two thousand and three, now Syria was costing American
lives because they were allowing Jahadas to go through their
country and into Iraq, which caused problems for the US

(15:41):
and its allies. And so, you know, I was very
interested in that transition, but he was interested in portraying
a more positive image just when Syrian US relations, I
think were deteriorating quite a bit.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
So let's fast forward. What do you think of what's
happening in Syria right now? And what kind of faith
do you have in this new leader? You know, to
go from a you know, essentially the insurgency to the establishment,
right whether no matter your political situation, no matter your country,
insurgents usually have a tough time governing.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
That is the question, isn't it? That is the one
hundred thousand dollars question. I get asked it all the time.
I ask other people who know the president much more
intimately than the new president, much more intimately than I do,
and I still get different responses. Because we really don't know.
As you just said, going from revolutionary to ruler is
a trying process. It's not always successful. The revolutionary can't really,

(16:35):
you know, rule in a way that is different from
the way that he handled things beforehand. Plus, and this
is throughout history. When rulers of opposition movements they come
to power, those that help them come to power want dividends.
They want you know, they want positions in the in
the government. They have a certain way of looking at things,

(16:58):
especially if they come from.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
S superpowers, what believe they should get a little little
extra something as.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well all the time. Yeah, they want not just a little,
they want a lot on everything. That So Ahma Shadda,
the new president. You know, on the one hand, the
Israelis quite frankly, they're skeptical and after October seven, twenty
twenty three, and this mcpunker mentality that they have right now,
they're want to air in the side of caution. And

(17:25):
most of the Israelis I've talked to in the military
and politically, you know, they see that Ahma Shada's turn
toward moderation, pragmatism, wanting inclusive government is more a tactical
maneuver than something that represents a true change, and that
he's going to revert to his Jahada's roots at some point.
And yet others I've talked to that know him actually personally.

(17:45):
One NGO in London knew him for ten years and
they are convinced he is pragmatic, he has changed, you know.
They he's going to be visiting Washington a week from
today and meeting with Trump and they'll probably serial will
sign on to the Anti ISIS coalition, which is supposed
to be a big deal. But they've been helping in

(18:06):
terms of intelligence cooperation with the US and tracking down
Okada and ISIS operat Is when he was an indlab
for the last decade. Now, he did that because he
wanted to clear out and he helped clear out any
any opposition or a competition.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
And I was just going to say, this is a
classic case. The enemy of my enemy is my ouse
exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
But we've had this relationship with him for a while
that has been tactical and opportunistic. I mean all leaders
are opportunistic, they want power, they're egotistical. But if it
could be molded, and it couldn't way, so to speak,
in a way their population stability than Okay.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
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unless they win. So the first person that popped in
my head when you were talking about this debate, you know, No,

(19:48):
he's a secret jehatis No, he's a pragmatist was air
to one. Yeah. Right, We've had the same debate about
air to one now for almost twenty years. No, he
can be dealt with. No, he's you know, at the
end of the day, he's still Muslim brotherhood, right Like,
there's this and yet you know Israel at times doesn't
want to deal with them. But he's a necessary you know,

(20:09):
he's also the head of a country that's a member
of NATO, right, Like, there's this necessity. How would you
characterize the new leader of Syria through the prism of Erdiwan? Like,
is he is at the same type of unsureness about
where their real biases lie.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah? I think so. I mean, I think we're on
the road to a sectarian majoritarian state where his Sunni faction,
particularly a much more conservative branch of Sunni Islam, are
going to dominate things in Syria.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
If the actually does this mean he's going to get
a lot of funding from MBS ANDBZ and oh the
entire Oh yeah, as.

Speaker 2 (20:51):
He did as they did during the opposition times. And well,
you know, this reminds me you were talking about. This
reminds me nineteen fifties, when you're talking about history in
the Middle East. There was a wonderful political science term
that the US applied to these authoritarian leaders. It was
called transitional authoritarianism, where you know, we support these guys
because they support US interests with military, political aid to plays.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
It's why they all hate us. In Latin America, we
always supported whoever was on our side, not whether they
were spading democrats.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, and we thought they would transition, right, that they
would transition to democracy. But yeah, oh wow, they live power.
They want to stay in power. And this is how
we got with the Shavaran as well, you know, all
these other guys. So, you know, I see this playbook
again happening with Syria. We're going to be acting in
our strategic interests as well as Israel. We want to
keep Iran out, we want to keep the Russians at

(21:39):
bay in Syria and hope that it just doesn't implode
into another civil war.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
So can Syria become a democracy pledgling democracy all our raq?

Speaker 2 (21:51):
Can it?

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Sure?

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Absolutely? They all can become democracies under certain circumstances. It's like, well,
those circumstances ever arrive, and not just the you know,
the larger ones, big ones, but in terms of literacy,
literacy rates, in terms of civil society, all of these
things that happen, in terms of economic output and economic opportunity,
all these things have to happen before we get to
the big questions of you know, who can vote and

(22:15):
how many people get to vote, So you know it
can happen. But you know, ninety percent of the country
is in the poverty rate. The country has been dealing
with fifteen years of withering international sanctions. It's a population
that's highly fragmented and militarized, with independent militias, with drug mafias,
with a rapacious warlords roaming around that have more power

(22:38):
than the national army. And you have these sectarian fortresses
which were created with the breakdown of the state during
the serians of a war. They you know, you naturally
retreat into your sectarian fortress and you look at the
other sex as a heathen scum that must be eliminated
from the world. And so how do you piece all

(22:58):
that together? And it's it's going to take a long time,
a lot of patients. It may have to go through
various iterations of who is in power, and hopefully not
another all out of civil war.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
So the what is I mean, what country has a
shot at trying democracy next after Iraq? And why are
you surprised that Iraq is still sort of a democracy.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
Sort of being the operative No.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
I mean it's not not a democracy. You know, it's
not Egypt.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
You know what are we a democracy?

Speaker 1 (23:31):
You know?

Speaker 2 (23:31):
We got electoral college? You know something?

Speaker 1 (23:33):
I mean, do the people have an advanced to change
the government in this country? And I still say the answers.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yes, yeah. And so in Iraq. One of the problems,
and this may be the future of Syria is you
have the Kurdish Autonomous Zone in the north.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
I want to bring up the Kurds in a minute here, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Which is virtually an independent country and actually doing much
better than the rest of them.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
I don't know why we don't support a Kurdistan. I mean,
I know why we don't because Turkeys.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Turkey, Walt and Iran Walton, Iraq Walton.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I you know, all those countries don't want it. But
you know, isn't the isn't the exposure of Iran at
being a paper tiger make the idea of a cur
to stand more possible.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I think so in the sense that they won't cause
as much trouble in a rock. And that goes for
what you were saying earlier, the possibility of Rock becoming
more of a democracy. I think Iran's being exposed and
being severely weakened has helped or increase the possibility of
a Rock becoming a functioning democracy, has increased the possibility
of Lebanon becoming a functional democracy, and maybe maybe Syria,

(24:42):
you know, down the road. But you know, at this point,
you know, I have a low bar of successors.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
How any Middle East expert is it going to ever
be too?

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Sadly? I just want stability and uh, you know, benevolent governance,
uh in these countries.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
Well, it's interesting. I have a colleague who just came
back from Iran, spent about two weeks here doing some reporting,
touching base with some sources again, and he came back
pretty convinced that the Iatolas are not going to be
able to hold power when this one dies. That is
that this is the next big crisis in the Middle East.
Is going to be Iranian instability and that it's sort

(25:21):
of the It is, on one hand, something we've been
wanting right as a policy outcome, and yet are we
really ready for it?

Speaker 2 (25:29):
What say you, Yeah, be careful what you want right, right,
and careful what you wish for. I guess that's one
of the reasons why you know, NBS in Saudi Arabia
wants that security pack so desperate, as well as access
to nuclear technology because of that anticipation of instability perhaps
in the future in Iran, and what might what might
take over in Iran if the iotolas fall? You know,

(25:51):
will it becomes Sometimes when the boogeyman falls, it's not
necessarily what we want comes into power, something even perhaps worse.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
Well, we saw that in Egypt.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
We saw that in Egypt. Yeah, suddenly they're.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Like, well, wait a minute, we'd like that military dictatorship back.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Please. Yeah. Democracy is great as long as they elect
the person we like, right, And but Iran I agree
with that. I agree with your colleagues observation. I think
Iran is on the precipice. You know that this was.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
A really it's really the unpopularity of the of the
iotolas are huge, the distrust, and then the fact that
they so easily folded, right there was just there's no longer.
I mean, yes, they're still brutalizing opposition, domestic opposition, they're
still trying to be an authoritarian state, but they've certainly

(26:38):
there's not a lot of fear anymore of the Iotolas. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
And it's not so they folded. It's not so much
that they were beaten, they were obliterated.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:48):
You know, despite all of this, you know, supposed deterrence
between Israel and Iran, and then Israel goes and takes
out his belah and the most and most unique way uh.
And then a side falls and the only viable and
then Hamas of course is terribly weaken the only viable
you know, proxy militias, the Huthis now and Yemen. But

(27:10):
Iran is weakened their image, I think even more importantly,
their image has just gone down the tubes with regional
powers uh. And I think we can see a realignment
of this. But what will happen in Iran. Iran has
always been reviewed as the prize, along as already Arabia
and the Gulf, So there are gonna be a lot
of eyes the prize.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
I mean I look at it as if Iran ever
decides to be a Western democracy, watch out. They're going
to be an economic powerhouse.

Speaker 2 (27:36):
Oh absolutely, And I mean they got the largest natural
gas reserves in the world, large oil reserves, and they
have the minerals if they can just get their act together.
Of course, we could say it about Venezuela, we could
say it about you know, you didn't even say it
about Syria, you know. I mean, Syrians for years have
always told me we'd be much better allies than the Israelis.
Would you know, we would, We wouldn't undercut you as
much as the Israelis have done, and I'm sure the

(27:58):
Iranians would would try to do it after all. I mean,
it's a you know, far coo. It's Arabic script is
an Indo European language, you know, and they have this
past that aligns with the West in some ways. So
what do you.

Speaker 1 (28:11):
Make of the of this, of this idea that the
Middle East is essentially now the rules are being written
by the Israelis and the Gulf States.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, I think there's a lot to that. I think
Israel is at its at its apex of power in
the region.

Speaker 1 (28:28):
It's funny apex of military power, but at a nator
in influence, right.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
I don't know. I wouldn't. I wouldn't say that because
military power speaks a great deal on that part of
the world, and they are isolated internationally. But how long
does diplomatic isolation last when you need them, you know,
when they when they are on your strategic side, and
that goes out, that goes out the window. So I
don't I don't think the Israelis ever really worry about
that too much. They're going to do what they want

(28:56):
to do. They want, They're going to do what they
feel is is in their strategic objectives. And they have
done that. I mean, look at this, Chuck, I mean
that they bomb Cutter.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
I think it's remarkable. You know, look, it's really frustrating
to me because you know, look, if they had the
way they managed, the way they did the war in
Gaza versus the way they did Hesbelah, it's like night
and day, right, it was the you know, you could tell,
as I said, bbe let idf do its thing with
Iran and with with Hesbela. They micro managed all things

(29:28):
Gaza through the lens of domestic politics, which is why
that's turned into an utter nightmare.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Right, No, I agree. I mean they strategically took out
his blow in a very phase step way, very strategic way,
brilliant way, in the same.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Thing the way that we had come to be exactly
that many admire the Israelis about like they did with Munich.
They treated Hesbelah like they did the Munich terrorists, you know.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yeah, exactly, and these the bulldozer in Gaza and.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Right, which is why they have this weird moment where
they have maximized military very power. Yeah, but problems with
you know that they're pretty isolated in the in the world. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Again, they bomb Cutter, and no Arab countries that are
at peace with Israel break relations with it, you know,
not even Cuting.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
You're right, it's astonishing. It was so brazyishing moment.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
It's an amazing moment. And and talks about how those
shifts have occurred in the region uh and uh and
the and the importance of the Gulf state's intelligence cooperation
economic cooperation that they've had with zur Reel for for
years prior to you know, some of them establishing relations.
So this is this is absolutely a sea change for me,

(30:41):
and I see Syria coming on board if this current
uh UH government stays in power and follows along the
line they're doing at least signing a security arrangement with Israel,
and then once society has crossed the line, which they
were they were gonna do, probably if Oxtober seventh didn't happen,
which is one of the reasons, as you know, the
did October seven.

Speaker 1 (31:01):
No, it was the you know, it was interesting. It
was you know the way Washington works, you know, in
the sort of everything is a deal. You know, the
Saudis were going to give Biden this. Yeah, this was
going to be Biden's like they weren't going to hold
you know, the Trump people were pressuring them to to
basically wait until Trump was there to add Saudi to
the Abraham Accords. And they were gonna because the Saudi's weren't.

(31:24):
They're not stupid. They want to play bipartisan American politics here.
They want everybody because they frankly knew, unlike Bebe, the
Saudis knew they had a problem in America's left and
that they were better off trying to appease the American
left rather than fight it. BB wants to fight it
rather than a peace. But I'll but we could set
that aside. And October seventh obviously made that impossible. But

(31:47):
where talk to my friends that are going to be
listening to this and say, I can't stomach MBS. Why
should we help him? What say, give me the give
me the academic view of why we've why they're a
necessary partner.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
Oh, he's the only game in town right now for
a very important strategic country. And and you know, I
don't at all like some of the things he's on,
especially to you know, Kashoji in assassinating and dismembering him,
some of these things. But you know, I'm more of
a realist to understand that. You know, tomorrow is a

(32:23):
different day, and the Saudi is An NBS may be
very much needed. You know now that now that you
know Iraan is perhaps weaken We always thought of them
at the Saudis as a counterway to Iran. But we
have to see what's going to happen with Iran. It'll
be interesting in the future. This will be interesting if

(32:44):
ten fifteen years from now, Iran does get rid of
the Ietolas, does stabilize, does become this this potential economic
power is you know, much like Germany in mainland Europe.
You know, what will happen with the Saudi relationship and
so forth? Can the two mutually coexist with US interests? Right?

Speaker 1 (33:05):
You could see three economic powers in the Middle East Israel,
a democratic Iran and this sort of religious monarchy in
the golf right with the Saudi's and they are they
going to be alliances or are they going to be competitors? Right?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, and that will be interesting to see
and so many, so much more history will occur before
we can even answer that question.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
So let's move backwards about your baseball career and how
you you know, tell me how you fused it? You know,
what is it? What are the lessons? You know. I'm
a huge advocate of sports in general, youth sports. It
teaches human interaction, it teaches there's so many lessons from

(33:49):
team sports. In particular. I think football is ideally the
most incredible team sport to deliver because eleven people have
to do their job for success. In baseball, everybody has
to do their job. There's a little bit of individual talent, right,
you know that you can, but ultimately you don't win
with that, you could be the greatest player in the
world head Wlliams. But if you don't have enough good

(34:11):
baseball players around you, you're not gonna win a World Series.
So you know how when somebody says the lessons of
baseball helped me become a better give me better perspective
about the Middle East? You answer this question half.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Because I failed so many times in baseball, I mean,
as you and.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Still in the Middle East. Is a lot of failure,
A lot of failure.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
I mean failure is at the core of sports. I mean,
you know, what do you have to hit to reach
the Hall of Fame in Major League Baseball?

Speaker 1 (34:39):
You only have to fail seven out of ten.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
Times, exactly, And so you have to keep coming back.
As a pitcher. Of course, I was a hitter as
well early on, but in professional baseball was a pitcher.
And you know, one inning you give up a home run.
The next inning, you know you have a chance to
rectify the situation or the next game, and so you
constantly fail. And I played basketball and tennis and all
that in football when I was young, and you you

(35:03):
were constantly tested, and you develop this resiliency which Sanjay
Gupta I read the other day says resiliency is like
strength training for the brain, you know, and it helps
you get through personal traumas, it helps you get through
failures later in life. And as I've become a conflict
resolution person involved in high helvem negotiations and arabisareeli stuff, steering,

(35:25):
civil war. You fail all the time, I mean, but
you have to learn from it, and you have to
have that resiliency, that persistence, perseverance to get through it
and try again, and try again and try again. Now
you don't want to make you know, Einstein's theory of
insanity correct, but you you, you know, learn from it
and adjust. And sometimes things just out of out of

(35:47):
your control, ruins everything and brings you back to ground zero.
And that's what happens in sports as well. And you
just have to have that resiliency. And so, you know,
one of my mantras is keep trying, don't know, eliminate
yourself and keep trying. And that I had to think
that's what I got from baseball and sports in general.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
When you you know, do you look back on your
injury and think, boy, if it happened today, you know,
the technology would have given me another chance.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Jock, you be interviewing the lead commentator of the World
Series right now, the lead analyst after a twenty year,
brilliant Hall of Fame career at the injury.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Now that's the what if in your head? How do
you not think about that?

Speaker 2 (36:29):
What if? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (36:30):
I'm all the technological advancements. I mean, you know, Sadi
Kofax's career ends. You know, show has already had two
Tommy Jones, Yeah, I think, right, you know, it's it's remarkable, right,
like Sadi Kofex might have had another five great years.

Speaker 2 (36:49):
Yeah, I mean, you know, I had a rotator cuff
injury and rotator cuff surgery by Frank Job, but the
Dodgers didn't really perfect itself for another five ten years. Yeah,
I mean, I really don't think that because I've had
a fulfilling, you know, career in many ways more fulfilling,
and I have a wonderful wife and family and so forth,
so you know, all those If I become a major

(37:11):
league player, that wouldn't have happened and wouldn't met these
one of the people. But I don't really think of that.
But but you know, sometimes, you know, I think I
would have made a lot more money, that's for sure
being a major league pitcher. But but drafting pictures is
the worst investment in all of sports. That's why you
got a draft about ten or fifteen of them. Hopefully

(37:32):
one gets through because of all the injuries, because everything
you do physiologically picture is wrong against normal you know, physiology.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Well, it's funny you say that I got you know,
I think I told you off came raight.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
I was.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
The Dodgers were the team of my youth, so I
used to just I know a lot of the history
of the Dodgers in general, and any any individual player
that sort of had made a name for themselves. I
always have some curiosity about and the relief pitcher Marshall,
who I believe is the first ever release pitcher to
win this I young. He spent the last twenty years

(38:06):
of his like obsessed with changing the motion of pictures
for the very thing you just said said, like the
way that we've taught pitching is actually asking the arm
to do something it shouldn't be doing, and that if
you change the motion, you could actually limit injuries. And

(38:28):
I believe his method did produce one major leaguer who
got into the majors. But given when you came up
it was sort of tail end of Marshall's career there.
Did you ever follow that that whole? Like, oh, ire
the case he had?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. I was. I was just thinking
about this yesterday when I was talking to someone. If
I had to change something with my motion while I
was in college and then drafted in the pros, it
would be throwing more side arm. I was a straight
overhand pitcher, and straight overhand you throw the more pressure.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Oh my goodness, it's right on your shoulder, like this
kid at the Blue Jays just now. I just heard it, right,
this kid with the Blue Jays, you savage, And don't
you watch him throw and think, yeah, buddy, in about
two years, you're going to have soldiers.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
It's going to happen, and they're all throwing so hard
and putting so much stress on their their flexer ligaments
and their forearm that they're all getting Tommy John surgery.
I mean, as you said, Otani had too. It's like
everyone has one. They're having them now in high school
and college. It's like, you know, you know, it's something
that has to happen before well isn't it.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
You Now, rarely will an MLB team draft a high
school pitcher anymore. They almost want the college level. Get
your Tommy John out, Get LSU to pay for the
Tommy John right, Get cal State Fullerton to pay the
Tommy John, you know that sort of thing, and then we'll.

Speaker 2 (39:51):
Off, you know, and come back for twenty three or
you know, something like that. And it's so much stress
on the body in the arm. But throwing side arm.
If I had to go back, I do that because
I did throw a sidearm every now and then just
to cross up the hitter. I crossed up my catcher
as well. But yeah, it was effective, and I threw
actually even harder. I mean I had a low nineties,

(40:12):
high eighties fastball, you know, peaked at ninety five, which
in those days actually meant something. Can you believe change
ups today are ninety miles an hour change The whole
goal of.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
A changeup is what it has to be ten miles
less than fastball exactly right. So if you're throwing a hundred,
then yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
That's just unfathomable to me. And sliders at ninety miles
an hours, I don't know how these hitters are doing
it how they can hit these things.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
But I know there's this point where you wonder when
does the ligament, just when does the body? We have
reached the peak performance of the body.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, And I think, you know, I think there's going
to be a trend. This is getting so it's a
pandemic of Tommy John surgery. I think there's going to
be a trend to go back to the great Maddis
Maddox type of pitching. You know, high eighties, maybe low
nineties at best, movement on the ball, placement, pitch longer.
I mean we were talking off camera with Jim Palmer

(41:08):
and right Bob Gibson news guy. They for three hundred
innings year after year, twenty complete games.

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Speaker 2 (42:53):
So I.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
I love Fernando. Fernando was you know, I was ten
when he came up, right like that was peak, you know,
and he was so much fun that World Series in
eighty one and following his career and you look at
his year stats and it was always like I always
thought he was. I always thought he belonged to the
Hall of Fame before everything else he did. And when

(43:17):
you look at his eight year sort of his eight
year peak, Nope, he always threw three hundred innings.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
You know.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
The joke was Tommy, you know, ruined his career by
leaving him into always way too long and that he
that he basically his eight years was the equivalent of
what would be a seventeen year career today per number
of innings you pitch.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
Exactly, exactly. Remember the Braves, you know, when they had
Smolds and Maddocks.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
And Glavin Gavin, Yeah, they all.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
Pitched, you know, every four days. They pitched long, you know,
deep into the game. And analytics have, in my mind,
screw things up with that regard. And you know, you
can't face a batter more than two times or the
third time, they're going to catch on to you. But
this is what pitching is all about, if you have
enough pitches and and uh yeah, Maddox.

Speaker 1 (44:02):
I love those stories of Maddox, you know, and hear
stories and he says, yeah, I let this guy see
this pitch because I know I'm facing him in the
playoffs and he's gonna think I'm gonna throw it again.
And I'm never going to do like Maddox was always
game planning on that bat. The next at bat when
he was facing the current batter, I'm going to make
him pop this one up. And sure enough he could
do that. Like that's just that's pitching. That's that's strac.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Actually thinking, actually thinking on the mound, you know. And
and maybe that's why I'm into academia, Chuck.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
They always thought think can you imagine do they having
an earpiece, oh where somebody's telling you what pitch to throat?

Speaker 2 (44:38):
That would be insulting to me, you know, I call
the game that I think is it? Shirt ser you
mentioned him searcher actually surets his own game. Don't ever
get me one of these things, you know.

Speaker 1 (44:47):
And now Max is the last Max. It feels like
we're about to see the end of the last era
of sort of the twentieth century style of pitching. We're
moving to this, right. Suger was always a throw back.
You know. He never wanted to go less than seven, right,
He always wanted to keep going. Your Verlanders, your your Surgers,
your Kershaws, and here they are. They're all basically probably.

(45:11):
I kind of think Max, I want him to retire.
Now he gets to say he pitched the last gave
me pitch was an old series, but it's hard to
walk away, right, Like, how often did you wish you
had one more year?

Speaker 2 (45:23):
I wish I wish I had I wish I had
one year in the majors. I mean, as you know,
I flamed out the miners. I wish I would have
stayed healthy enough to God, because I went up against
these guys in spring training and batting practice, and and
you knew you.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
Had your stuff. It was just the injury that never
gave me the shot I help.

Speaker 2 (45:43):
So, you know, I mean lots of ifs and what ifs,
and sure I think I had the basic stuff. That's
why I was drafting number one. I think and and
by the Dodgers. So I like to think, I you know,
if not.

Speaker 1 (45:54):
They were always a little bit better at identifying young pitchers.
I mean that was their thing. That's what they did.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
That's what they did. But you still got to get
a bunch of them because you just never know when
the body's going to give out, and it will give
out unless you're Clemens or Nolan Ryan, who has to
be bionical I read.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Is it Nolan Ryan that doesn't have the the the
tendon that would snap or like he was basically literally
a gift from God type of.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
I know, I know, elbow it's the key. You know,
if you want your kid to become a pitcher, take
out take out the flexor tendon or something like that, like.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
Don't even have it. It turns out it's an impediment.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, but look at his legs,
you know, Nolan Ryan and Tom c they're huge, and
he got a lot of his power. It got low
and pushed off and that's what a lot of pictures it.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Certainly it looks like he's built that way. Yeah, exactly,
He's built bottom up. And if you told me, if
I told you, he never It's interesting, by the way,
a guy like Max Scherzer's never had a Tommy John
and neither's Kershaw Right, what does it tell you if
you've never had one these.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Days that if he if you pitch the right way,
if you don't worry about throwing your legs, now use
your legs, use your body. And there's all sorts of
mechanics now to align your body. There's so much more technology.
Perhaps when I was playing, if they had that technology,
they would have aligned my body, my motion more. I
put less stress on the elbow shoulder for me. So

(47:21):
you know they can do these things. But man, if
you're throwing one hundred miles an hour, your arm is
going to give out. You just cannot take that type
of pressure. And the thing is, you know, hitters are
they catch up, they're hitting these balls. And I've lewis
how many teams your favorite teams? And a guy Jamie Moyer,
you know who's forty He pitched forever eighty two miles

(47:43):
an hour, eighty five miles an hour, and he pitches
a shout out because hitters aren't used to that type
of thing, you know, they're not used to eighty eighty
with with motion and with the motion in the ball,
and with targeting, you know, target to pitching. So it's
I think think there's room for both, and I think
I agree with you. I think we're going to trend

(48:04):
sort of in another direction. I hope, I hope.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Well, it was exciting to see Amamoto throw a complete game.
You're like, hey, that used to be a big that
used to not be as big of a deal. A
complete game of the World Series.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
It must be a different Yamamoto, you know, at some point.
But and then it comes back the day after and
throws you know, three innings, you know, after he throws
a cop. I mean, it's unbelievable, and uh, you know,
I hope his arm is okay. You know, I'm sure,
having invested gazillion dollars in him, they're not going to
ruin him.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
But I'm sorry as a as a Nats fan who
watched the team make the decision not to use their
young star pitcher in a run to the playoffs, and
then they decided to over use them in their eventual
run to the World Series. They you know, the price
of a world I mean, Steven Strasburg never recovered from
that overuse.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's true. That's true.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
I mean it ended his career. Now, the question is
as a franchise, the ultimate prize is winning the World Championship.
Is it worth it?

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Would you take that? Is that? Is that?

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Is that a well they did, that's the disc Basically,
the Nats made.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
That worth it. As a Gnats fan, are you is
that worth it?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
It's a great question. I'm glad to have had. I
I tell this to my son because he's so depressed
about the state of the Nats and it's an ownership
group that doesn't look like they want to keep up
with the Joneses or the Guggenheims, et cetera.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Right, right, But.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
I tell him, you know what's what makes fandom fantastic
because you experience a low for so long that when
you get the taste of the high, it's so much
it tastes so much better.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Well, you're talking to as I said before, I grew
up in Baltimore, a lifelong Orioles fan. We haven't won
the World Series since eighty three. If we had an opportunity,
if we were in the World Series this year, throw
caution lit win, throw right the top pictures every every
inning I don't care, you know, as you know, and
I'm a pitcher, I realized what could happen with overuse?

Speaker 1 (50:03):
You know, So let me ask the Otani question to you,
because I'm sure you get a version of it, But
let me ask it this way. Why is this so unusual?
I why why haven't more pitchers been more successful hitters
in the past.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, well, I think I think you're going to see this.
And one of the things that most people don't realize
is that major league pitchers, almost all of them, I
would say, were really great hitters.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
In little they were probably the best team in their
little league. But they played every pity if they weren't pitching,
they were playing shortstop.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Right my high school team, I was the best hitter.
I was the best pitcher in college. It happens. But
in college you start getting weeded out and you get
into specialization. I remember, even when I was playing in
the minor leagues, only the Cincinnati Reds, even in the
minor low War leagues, allow pitchers to hit. But otherwise
you're you know, you're DH four, and you never practice,

(50:55):
you never take hitting practice, and so just like anything,
you daturally skill. And so the specialization of it, but
I did in a little league game. I did pitch
a complete game, six inning shutout and hit a home
run in the game. So and it was a legitimate
home run, not a little league Yeah, you get a
show exactly, but I do.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
It was always one of those I never understood why
more pitchers couldn't take batting practice on their off days.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah, I know it. I don't know. Maybe the Union
got together and this is this is conspiracy theory talk,
and they said they want these older guys who can
want jobs.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
It's even conspiracy theory. No, no, no, no, The DH
is more jobs.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
He Aaron, Tommy Davis. You know, these these older guys
that can't play in the field, and and they want
more offense. I mean that's the that's the key, you know,
they want more runs, they want more offense. It was
a business decision. And all the National League, of course,
is designated hit her and I missed this the strategy
of the picture hitting and all of that sort of thing.
And but and there were some good there were some

(51:59):
good pictures some you know who who hit as well.
So I'm miss same.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
So could you know there's there's a team Israel in
the world Baseball Classic. But baseball's never really taken in
the Middle East. There is some cricket. Could you ever
imagine being able to get more people interested in baseball
in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think I'd like to get more people interested in
baseball in the United States.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
With first, well, I know my son is My son
tells me this all the time.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
He goes.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
You know, I'm the only one of my friends that
actually follows baseball like they're Nats fans, but they weren't
really Like he's now at school in Dallas, and the
first thing he did was he wanted to go check
out a Rangers game. He'd never been. And he had
the hardest time convincing somebody to go with them to
a baseball game.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Because it's it's long, it's you know, to some that
it's boring, there's not as much action. There's a lot
more thought into it. I mean, you know, I take
the George Will you know view.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Toward I do too, Yeah, Wills my North Star base I.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Think about every pitch where the fielders are, and so
it's a lot of fun in my mind. But we're
baseball aholics, you know. But for this generation and the
recent generations you know, they want more action, more scoring,
which is why baseball, you know, went to the home
run and steroids and looked the other way and all
this stuff to get more runs on the board. But

(53:20):
we'll take in the Middle East, I don't know, I mean,
the Saudi's play it. But that's a bunch of a
Ramco kids. You know that that's all right.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
It is cricket close enough that you could use it
as a gateway or not.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
No, it's a very different game. And people look at
the history of baseball and they think it comes from cricket.
It really doesn't. It comes from rounders, which is much
more like baseball. But I don't think I can't even
understand cricket, and cricketers can't understand baseball either.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
But I've tried to. I've like, you know, you know,
sometimes you're just traveling overseas and you're stuck in a
hotel and there's nothing to watch other than either a
rugby match or a cricket match. So you know, I
would sit there and try to figure it out, and
you're just like, well, you know, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
While you make an interesting point, show, maybe in the
Middle East and elsewhere, maybe baseball has more of a
chance because their favorite sports, you know, soccer or football,
uh and cricket. You know, they're they're long soccer and.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
They're low scoring. So maybe right, and it is about
strategy that you know, in some ways the mentality of sports,
especially in sort of Southeast Asia with cricket and soccer,
and at least with cricket and soccer. I mean, you're right.
I mean maybe we're stumbling onto something and that they
enjoy the patience of the success.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yeah, we just we just need baseball. I mean, obviously
it's it's very popular in Latin America and East Asia.
We just need baseball to enter into Europe and the
and the Middle East and do what the NFL I
think has been doing. You know, we of course we
hold games in Mexico and and uh and have exhibitions
in East Asia and so forth, or actually had some
regular season games in Japan this this past year. So

(54:58):
you know, I think one of the things, one of
the things which changes everyone's perception in the particular region
world out of sport United States, if someone from that
region becomes a star and it becomes a guiding light
like a show Antani or you know, earlier Japanese players
and Korean players. We just need some some Middle East
you know.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
We almost had it in you Darvish, Yeah, Japanese, Iranian.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Yeah, exactly exactly. So you know, if we get one
of those these these you know, lightning rods that can
that can act as a uh, you know, a form
of attraction to your day, and and then you start
to get youth baseball and stuff like that. And it
may take a generation, but that's what it'll take.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Let me get let me get you out of here.
On the issue of Islamophobia, Okay, because as somebody who
spent so much time in the Middle East, in the
Arab world in general, and obviously there's you know, not
all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims or Arabs
and and and so for it. But Islam a phobia

(56:03):
is one of those phobias that is like anti Semitism.
It has it's on the left and the right. It
can be a type of unifier that's not a healthy
thing for a democracy.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
Just tell me about your experience of sort of learning
the culture that sort of got rid of or didn't
allow a phobia to take to take in you.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Yeah, I think it's because of travel. And this is
why I'm such a big advocate of travel abroad in college,
just to go places and not to an English language place.
See they were in a language. Go someplace that makes
you feel uncomfortable, Go someplace where you don't know the
culture or learn the language. Immerse yourself, and that's when
you really start to understand that these people, even though

(56:50):
they follow in other religion and have many different habits
and customs, they're like you in many different ways. They
want many of the same things. And I bring students,
brought groups over to the Middle East, and that's what
they find out when they really interact with people and
not just stay in the five star resort hotel. They
go around to the rural areas they need people. They
spend you know, an evening or even overnight at some house,

(57:14):
and they learn about their lives. And that is the
best way to get rid of these phobias and all
of this misinformation that exists regarding Islam.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
I mean, look, there's we're seeing more Muslim Americans run
for office over the next ten years, and you're going
to see it. It is the tension that shows up
in these communities and it ends up being it could
be New York City, it could be Minneapolis, it could
be La like it's you do in it. It's definitely
a tougher barrier to break than I think I fully appreciate.

Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah, you know, Jimmy Carter said something that was very
interesting when the Batlan Barack Obama became president and a
lot of this latent racism came out because he was
the first African American president, and Jimmy Carter said, you know,
this is a good thing. People were afraid. He said, no,
this is a good We needed to come out and
only then can we address that. So maybe all of
these things, more Muslims becoming involved in the community. Yes,

(58:11):
it's causing some distress intentions and people are afraid of this,
that and the other thing in Sharia law coming in,
which is ridiculous. Maybe all of this has to happen.
We need to get through this and have these discussions
and hopefully through education and reasonable people making reasonable decisions
that we can get past it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
I remember Colin Powell when he endorsed Oboba the first time,
and he said, but his answer to that is lucky
he's not Muslim.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
But so what if he was, yeah, yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
He tried. It was like, why it doesn't If he was,
it wouldn't matter, right, this is it.

Speaker 2 (58:45):
And there are many Muslims that are as Muslim as
I am Roman Catholic, which is not very much anymore, right,
called it's.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
More about how it was more about your upbringing, not
your prep Now.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
How you live, what type of person you are, these
type of values, and you know, it just takes understanding,
it takes listening, it takes empathy, and we're in short
supply of all these things these days. But hopefully that'll change.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
So you still hang your hat in San Antonio.

Speaker 2 (59:11):
I do. I do, and probably we'll It'll be on
my grave my grave site as well, because I love
it here. It's a you know, big city with a
small town atmosphere.

Speaker 1 (59:21):
I have to say San Antonio, this San Antonio, Austin
megaopolis that's developing, right, I mean, you know it feels
like it's feels very similar to d C Baltimore or that's.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
What Dallas Fort Worth. You know. Yeah, it's coming together,
much more dominated by Austin in the last decade than.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
But I feel like, you know, maybe Wemby will change things.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Right, I think so, hopefully the team stays here long enough.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Well, I know, I mean, you know the Austin desperately
wants a basketball team. I think they have a better
shot at getting a baseball team. Like I love the
idea of San Antonio getting having football and basketball and
let Austin have the baseball.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
I would have a lot of San Antonio's of building
their recent basketball arena where it is in the east side,
to build it like about not maybe not halfway, but
a little bit more closer on I thirty five North.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
Well, is it that halfway between Austin and San Antonio
becoming its own city?

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Yeah, San Marcos and le bron Fels. It's it's as
you said, it's a megalopolis. And that would have drawn
from both cities, and therefore, you know, each team. I
don't even care if they call it the San Antonial
Austin Spurs or something. Just right, keep them here, draw
from both cities, and that would have been great. But
now we have a proposition going out to being elected
on tomorrow that will decide whether or not the Spurs

(01:00:36):
build a downtown arena, And if it doesn't pass, who knows,
they may become the Austin. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Boy, the timing of that with Wemby on the rise,
my guess is that probably helps it a couple of points.
I mean, cities usually reject this stuff though they don't
like taxpayer dotas.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
We don't like it, especially San Antonio. But you know,
Spurs are on team in town.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
I'm going to put this on my list of races
to watch on the proposition A and D. They're both
key fantastic. Hey, Dave, this was great. I appreciate it
getting to know you well.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
I really enjoyed it too, Chuck, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:08):
All right, Well, people should check out the book Dodgers
to Damascus. Uh, it's more of a Middle East book
than it is a baseball book.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
It is it is I spent a few years in
baseball and the rest of my life in Middle East,
So yeah, proportionally appropriate.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
But you know, it's a it's a reminder that that
sports is part of your education. It's you can't have
a complete life in some ways, a complete education without
without sports.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
That's sports and having other life experiences. You know, there's
competition and discomfort and failure.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
So no, it's terrific. Lesson congratulations and like I said,
I appreciate you exposing yourself because that's what that is,
when you let somebody else write about you while you're
still alive.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
Yeah. Thanks, Thanks Chuck, I'm a regl in the end.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
But anyway, David, great to know you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Okay, thank you about

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Interview Only w/ David Lesch - Bashar al-Assad, Broken Borders & Baseball

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Interview Only w/ David Lesch - Bashar al-Assad, Broken Borders & Baseball