October 1, 2025 • 52 mins
On this episode of the Chuck ToddCast, NewsNation host Leland Vittert opens up about his personal journey growing up on the autism spectrum, the struggles his family faced, and the lessons that shaped his outlook on life and journalism. From being misunderstood in school and learning to navigate social cues, to the pivotal role his mother played in holding the family together, Vittert reflects on why he chose to go public with his story and how his experiences inform his new book—a parenting guide told from the child’s perspective. He also explores how autism has served as both a challenge and, at times, a superpower in his career and personal life.
The conversation widens to America’s media landscape, where Vittert argues for a “radical center” approach and a journalism that calls balls and strikes on both sides rather than chasing flashy headlines. He stresses the importance of reviving local news, curating coverage around what matters most, and confronting the biases not only in how stories are told, but in which stories get told at all. This candid discussion is part memoir, part media critique, and a call for greater honesty—both in parenting and in public life.
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Timeline:
(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)
00:00 Leland Vittert joins the Chuck ToddCast
01:45 The public doesn’t grasp autism and child development issues
03:00 Autism wasn’t well understood in the 80s
03:45 Parents struggle to raise neurodivergent children
05:00 Adapting to the world you live in, not expecting world to adapt to you
06:45 Leland’s father didn’t want him to be defined by his disability
07:30 PE teacher put Leland in with the girls “to protect him”
08:15 The struggle with learning to pick up social queues
13:15 Everyone in DC always wanted to be student body president
14:00 Why go public with your story of being on the spectrum?
16:30 There’s a “parental reckoning” happening in America
17:30 There are lots of broken young men susceptible to radicalization
19:00 Nobody has definitive answers about causes of autism
21:15 Scientists need to be humble enough to say “I don’t know”
22:30 80% of parents with disabled children get divorced
24:30 Leland’s mother held the family together, hero of the story
26:30 Telling this story publicly is like going to therapy on live TV
28:00 How did you share the story of your autism with your wife?
31:00 You don’t “get over” autism
32:30 Where has autism showcased itself as a superpower in your life?
34:30 Book is a parenting book written from the child’s perspective
36:15 There’s no one answer to America’s media problem
37:45 What works and doesn’t work in the news media??
39:00 There is a “radical center” that’s sick of extremes on both sides
39:45 Journalists should call balls and strikes and call out both sides
41:45 Cable news tends to obsess over stories that are flashy over substantive
43:00 Journalists should curate stories that are most important
44:45 Bias isn’t just how you cover the news, it’s what you cover
46:30 Local news was a character reference for the national network journalists
48:15 How to revive local news/journalism?
51:00 Leland really put himself out there with this book
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Well, joining me now is a familiar face to many
of you. It's Leland Vitter. He is a anchor at
News Nation, long time before that, longtime correspondent and journalist
for Fox News, and he's out with a new personal
memoir of sorts. It's called Born Lucky, A dedicated Father,
A grateful son, in my Journey with Autism. It's a
(00:28):
very moving book. And if you're somebody, if you're a parent,
if you have a child struggling with some of these issues,
I think you're going to find this story in this
book quite inspiring. And with this issue in the news,
it is worth looking at how families deal with this,
(00:49):
not how governed. We're going to look at this from
a family perspective, not necessarily a government perspective. Leland, Welcome
to the podcast. Nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I think we would say, is I've watched you for many,
many years on radio. They would say, right, you know,
longtime listener, first time call. So it's great, great to
be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you know, I had I found your book very
compelling and it reminded me of my friend. And I'm
sure you know this story because you're probably familiar with
them with my friend Ron Fournier, longtime political journalists that
the Associated Press, who wrote wrote a book about his
journey with his son and the battle that they had
(01:33):
and how and just your stories about how Principles were
treating you and your parents and there, and it's just
it's just such a reminder how little the public does
understand autism, understand childhood development issues, and how little we
understand is how you can overcome them, right, And I think, yeah,
(01:55):
and I think that to me feels like the purpose
of this book.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, Look you said it right, and I
think you've picked up on it. Chuck when you said,
for any parent, grandparent, aunt uncle, who has a kid
who is struggling, because it goes way beyond autism to ADHD, anxiety,
physical disabilities, just the general bullying that goes on now
(02:19):
and is so aggressive and there's so many kids who
are struggling having such a hard time. And when I
was diagnosed, you know, when my parents and I write
this in the book, right, they know there's something wrong
with me. If a kid would touch me, I'd turn
around and slug them. I was really repellent to kids.
And they go into one of those little psychology testing centers,
you know, linoleum floors, crummy chairs, We've all been there,
(02:43):
stale coffee, old magazines. And they bring me back and
take one to take me over to, you know, play
with blocks or whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
They talk to my parents and they look at my parents.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They said, we really can't imagine what's going on inside
his head.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
And my dad goes, is there anything we can do? Anything?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
You know, he's desperate, And she goes, generally, not, what
year is this? This is the mid eighties, right, not
just it wasn't understood.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
What it was. I was just gonna say, like, you know,
it's I was my under I felt like this is
a classic story of the eighties. I don't think that's
the response the school gives you. If this is two
thousand and seven or two thousand and eight, what do you.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Think, Yeah, I think that's I think that's fair.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I think those still to this point, there are so
many parents who feel helpless because there is this idea,
right in my dance, is there anything we can do?
And she said generally not, but you know, if the
kids smart me wants it, there are a few things,
but there is now even more in our society, this
desire to put kids who have any type of special
(03:49):
need in bubble wrap, right, to give them medicine, and
to say meet them where they're at, and you have
to accept them is who you are, they are, and
you have to tell them that this is the superpower
and all of these things that if my dad had
done to me, I would have had no chance to
operate in the world that I operate in now, because
(04:11):
his method was not about adapting the world to me.
It was about adapting me to the world. And he
was brutally honest about it, right, Chuck, And that's not
something parents are told to do. You know, when I
was in seventh grade, I wanted to play tennis. My
dad was a phenomenally gifted athlete, still is, and I
writing born lucky. How he took me to a couple
of tennis lessons and after the third or fourth one,
(04:33):
he looked at me and he said, I'm your father.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I love you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I will come to every tennis lesson. I will drive you,
I will cheer you on. You will never be able
to play tennis.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You just can't do it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You don't have the coordination, you don't have the hand,
eye coordination, you don't have the depth perception, you don't
have the motor skills, it's never going to work, which
considering I really hope that tennis was my way into
asking this girl out. I was heartbroken, but I knew
then my dad would always tell me the truth. And
then when he said you can do something, boy, that
(05:04):
meant something all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It's interesting what you just said about you felt. You
said your dad wanted you to adapt to the world
that you live in, not make the world adapt to you. Right, boy,
if this is not sort of what I would argue.
You know, we sit here and we have these these fights,
sometimes through left right prisms, but I don't think we're
(05:27):
having left These are because that's how in many ways,
that's how I was raised where and now you know,
especially if you're from a if you're if you're seen
as from a group that isn't part of the majority,
whether it's a religious minority, whether it's a gender minority,
whether it's you know, something else. Those that succeed are
(05:49):
the ones that learn how to adapt to the world
as it is and then slowly but surely fight for
acceptance versus h trying to turn you know, three hundred
and forty nine million people to your way right, right,
which is which is something that you know, if everybody
behaved that way, we'd never get anything done as a country.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah. I think that's a perfect point.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And I think it's one of those things, right, You've
got to meet people where they're at, and the world
is where it's at. Especially you know, when I was
a little kid, and I think about this story for
fifth grade about my dad really realizing there's a problem
fifth grade going to a small private school. He comes
over to check on me. I'm getting bullied every day.
I'm coming home crying every day my sister.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And this is that private school. Yeah, your parents are
paying yea in theory extra right, well, you know, you know,
or at least more personalized more. I mean, why did
we move from public to private? It was for that
right too.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
To be fair, though, you know, my parents didn't tell anybody.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
They didn't tell anybody that I was diagnosed with anything
because my dad said, I didn't want you to be
defined by it, and I didn't want you to all
you have that. And I think people can say, you know,
good things are bad things about that, but it certainly
was a different way, and it now forced me to
know that I could work through anything but fifth grade
(07:16):
private school. He comes in to see the pe teacher.
I'm in pe and my dad goes, hey, how's he
doing in This guy who he knew, big big former
football player knew my dad from football, said I think
he's doing better today, you know better this week.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
He goes, great, let's go see him in pee.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
And the guy goes, I don't think that's a good idea,
and they're looking down on all the fields and dad
goes wise as well. He says, I've had to put
him with the girls because I had to protect him
from all the boys. So you think about that from
a father's perspective, a fifth grade father hearing that the
only way for the pe teacher to protect his kid
is to put him with the girls.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
My dad said okay, thanks and walked off.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
But I think that sort of shows you where I
was at in my social ability to interact with Some
people are sort of magnetic in their attraction of friends
and kids.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I was repellent.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So I remember my friend Ron describing the issue with
his son, which was you know that you had to
learn social cues right it sounds like that's what you,
that's what you your father really helped you with, which
is sure to how to read other In some ways
we don't realize that we're We quickly learned how to
(08:30):
read people, but not everybody can. And sometimes you, just
like you might need extra help to learn nectually read words,
some people need extra help to read social cues. Right,
is that a fair description?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Very fair?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And I needed both, you know, two halves to an
IQ test, twenty points spread between the two halves represents
a learning disability.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I was between genius and.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Mentally retarded, so half the test I was genius, half
the test test I was mentally target so seventy plus
points spread. So I needed a lot of help learning
how to read words and forcing through that. And then
also you pointed out social skills. So one of the
things my dad did was he would take me to
lunch with mister Todd.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Right. And it was easy because I didn't have any friends.
I didn't have anything else to do with my life.
My dad was my only friend.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And I loved interacting with adults because I could talk
to them about things that I talked to my dad about,
about politics, about sports, about not so much sports, but politics, business,
all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And we'd go to much with mister Todd.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
And this is a perfect example because I would just
be badgering the hell out of you with questions, how
do you book your guests, how do you decide what
politicians telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How do you come up with your questions?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
On and on and on, and my dad, rather than
sort of saying you know, okay, lucky, stop or enough,
he would tap his watch, and that was my moment.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
To be that was a social cue. He was teaching you.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That was a social queue.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So to tap his watch, that's my method message to
stop talking, but also to bookmarkt right, because then we
would go back and he'd say, okay, mister Todd was
talking about going on vacation with his kids or taking
his wife out to dinner on Saturday night. Why did
you think that was the right time to ask him
about his show or politics or whatever it was. And
(10:22):
it was teaching me how to understand and see the
world through as you point out, the natural social skills
that so many other people have. It's a small example,
but it was a way to actually teach me in
real time. What was happening rather than just say, look,
you know he can't he can't come out with anybody,
(10:43):
which at the time I really couldn't. But at the
same time, if you say to a kid okay, stop, okay,
not now, okay, whatever, it embarrasses the kid.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And so that was the line he had to toe.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Was there a moment for you where it was like
you right, got it? Yeah? Or is this a gradual
thing where all of a sudden your dad said, do
you realize that you know, you're no different than anybody
else out there in the world.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Ook.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
He always made it clear to me that I was different,
and what he would tell me, you know, through the
bullying and isolation of high school.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I have had a teacher in eighth grade.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Who said to me in an art class, you know,
tables and art around, you know, in front of the
whole class. He said, you know, if my dog was
as ugly as you, I'd shave its ass and make
it walk backwards. And I came home that night he just, yeah, yeah,
try that one on for size.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Gosh, that's something you don't forget.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I guess, no, no, you don't, And I don't forget
his name either, But we didn't put it in the book.
I walked across the street back home that afternoon. My
dad was waiting for me, as he was every every
time that I came home from school, every day twenty
and I was just crying. I said, I was just
humiliated today and told them what had happened. And he
(12:05):
talked me through it and worked through it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And what was interesting at the end.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Of the conversation every night he'd say to me, Look,
the qualities that make you unpopular now and that you
are picked on now and that make you humiliated now,
is what's going to be your strength later on. And
it wasn't ever about academics. It wasn't ever about being
smart or successful. It was about character and hard work
and self esteem was earned, not given right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know. I started as a kid doing two hundred push.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Ups a day at six or seven years old, because
Dad was like, I can teach you that hard work
is rewarded and that goals matter. So that that was
where he would He was very clear to me that
I was different. I think you'll appreciate this, Chuck. Living
where you and I both live now, I used to
say I never liked anyone who liked high school, because
(12:55):
the values of high school are so screwed up that
if you like high school, there's something wrong with you.
And there's a little bit to be said about that
about Washington too, if you really like.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
One student council. I know, I have a friend of
mine who grew up in Arlington, Leland. You'll appreciate this.
I don't mean to interrupt your train of thought there,
but she loves to remind like she's a native Arlingtonian,
which means she's grown up in Washington, much different than
ninety percent of the people that live in this community
of the DMB. And she said, just remember, everybody who
(13:24):
comes to Washington wanted to be student council president. Doesn't
mean they ever became student council president, but they all
want it.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So you have.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
The point is it's a town of busybodies, right like
it is. It is, it is, it is, It is
that part of high school on steroids.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, look, you know, the best training for a Washington
newsroom may have been middle school.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I think some people in Congress would say that as well.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I think Congress is the only one who has a
lower approval rating than the media right now.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
But it's interesting you say this about high school and
about Let me ask this though, why'd you go public
with the story? You know, I didn't I didn't know this,
and I wouldn't have I would have never picked up
You know, sometimes I'd like to think, oh, so and
so you know, you hear this phrase on the spectrum? Yeah,
(14:18):
and at this point I don't love the phrase because
aren't we all on the spectrum? It just depends, right,
I mean, yeah, we're all on the spectrum. So it's
this weird shorthand that we've given to Hey, they're a
little bit off center from whatever spectrum is and all
this stuff. But why'd you choose to share your story?
(14:40):
Because in some ways it sounds like your dad's goal
was to help you adapt so that you didn't have
to constantly say I'm different, treat me different.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, no, look, I mean you think about where my
dad was.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I think you have to sort of baseline this seventh
grade start a new school. My parents are hoping for
this change, sitting in they get called in two or
three weeks into school, thinking like, hey, this is just
a normal check in, right, you have kids, and you
know what you know this is like and everybody sat
in the principal's office, and the principal looks, starts the
meeting off cold of my parents, you know, most.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Of the school here.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
In fact, everybody here really thinks Lucky is quite weird.
That's a seventh grade principaletize.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You know. I saw that line, you know, and you're
just sitting there going, yeah, how do you become a
principal writing about a kid that way? Yeah? Like it
really well, I'm not trying to like, you know, sound
like you fire all these people, but my god, right.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And then right, and then you know, so arrow number
one through my parents' heart, and and look they know
that in some ways it's true that I was really
different and really odd. And then she follows up with
and I think he and frankly, I think he's pretty
weird too.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So what told you is that people who were supposed.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
To protect me we're gonna weren't going to and thought
it was my fault. Again, great training for a news
but uh, the reason I went public with it is
because I think we are in a reckoning about parenting
in America, and I think parents need to know there
is real hope. George Will wrote the forward to this
(16:16):
and he said, this is the proof of the mountain
moving power of printal love. And I think parents have
been told for so long, you know, let the village
raise your kid, you know, let let let your kid
be them and and sort of the experts know better,
and there's this new methodology and on and on and
on and told parents basically not to take control.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And mine did.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
And I thought it was a really important story for
people to hear.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I well, that is a that is a great way
to frame it, because you know, the fact is this
is true not just when it comes to parenting, which
is the parents need to take more control, right, And
there's there is this like perception that somehow you don't
(17:01):
have the ability to change things. It's also true with
the healthcare system, right if you don't take control of
your own medical care. And by the way, remember that
the doctors work for you. You don't work for the doctors.
These people work for you. You don't work for that
type of mindset. But you, the parent, have a lot
more station here and that you also have a lot
(17:23):
more responsibility when it comes to your kids. I mean,
I look at when you when you it feels like
we have a a lot of broken young men out
there right who are susceptible to all sorts of violent
ideologies or violent actions. Perhaps some of this is social
(17:47):
media or you know, whatever we're doing here, but you know,
there is a through line that I notice in some
of these people, whether it's a school shoot and all
that is, there is some sort of lack of parenting
or a parent not in the picture, or a parent
sort of not seeing things. What I find your story
(18:09):
to be inspiring. It's a reminder that the parent needs
to take control here, because nobody else is going to
love this kid enough to do the kid right. Only
the parent.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
One thousand percent. I mean, there's so many different ways
to go with that.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Right when I was diagnosed with autism, I said this,
you know, in the book, they didn't really know what
it was.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It wasn't a spectrum.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Was either you're profoundly autistic or you're nothing and a
pervasive elemental dislay.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Now it's one in thirty one kids boys, one in twelve.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Do you think, by the way.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
What is what is your understanding of it? Are we
learning to diagnose it better or is it increasing in
the society.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think the answer to that is both. And what
I find interesting is is that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
There's lots of theories about what autism, what it's not.
You know, Oh no, it's not rising, it's just we're
diagnosing more. Oh no, it can't be vaccines.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Don't know this.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
There's nobody who will tell you definitively this is what
it is. This is why we're seeing this. And by
the way, you Leland, who clearly was diagnosed with what
we now know to be autism, just got married to
this wonderful woman who you want to have kids with.
Here's we know that it's a higher chance that I
will have an autistic child, but we don't know why,
(19:27):
and we don't know if there's anything that can be
done either during pregnancy or.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
That means that implies it's genetic.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There's some genetic component, right, But at.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
The same time we are having this debate about is
it outside chemicals or something like that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
No, I mean, I think the answer is we don't know,
and I think, you know, I think that intel science
can tell us the answer to that. We need to
keep looking. It should be you know, we've cured a
not cured. You can live now with AIDS. Is no
longer a dessence, dozens of cancers you can live with
over the past forty years. That we're destined is we
(20:02):
can replace your joints and have you become a bionic man.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Diabetes, all this stuff and autis and you know it did.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's not vaccines, but he could, like, come on, guys.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
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interviewed Michael Osterholme. It was an expert on pandemics and
all this stuff. And he has a very good way
that he describes science. He says, science isn't truth. Science
is the pursuit of truth, right, And we also have
to be humble about science, meaning it does change as
we learn more, right, And that's it. And the fact is,
(21:47):
like we thought AIDS was a death sentence, as you
point out, we thought cancer itself was a death Now
now all cancers aren't. You know, we're getting there. It's
from my father died of hepatitis C in nineteen eighty eight.
If he gets diagnosed with appetitis seed, today you take
a pill and you're fine. But in nineteen eighty eight,
by the way modern medicine we sort of you know,
(22:08):
in the eighty eight, you know, you know, I would
have said, oh, the eighties are and yet in hindsight, right,
that's like, you know, it feels like the nineteenth century,
and it compares.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It's a great point.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
What is I think, you know I had I had
doctor Jah and not doctor Jay Boticharia.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I have doctor John tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
It's amazing how TV works that way. But a Bouticharia
ahead of the NIH that was his message. He goes,
we have to be humble enough to say we don't know,
and he said very few scientists are. But to pick
up on what you were saying about fatherhood and everything else.
This tells fathers you can make this enormous difference, and
you should. And I again, over the past ten or
(22:51):
fifteen years, fathers have been really sort of told to
take a back seat and that, you know, not to
sort of demand more of their sons and demand that
there's stand up and take responsibility. And I don't, you know,
doing two hundred push ups a day when you were
five or six years old.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Is not you know.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I'm sure now he would be counseled against that because you're,
you know, doing whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And it was a very different way.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
And I write in the book, you know and born
lucky that how lucky I am also that I had
two parents eighty you know, and a family say together,
my parents have been married for fifty plus years. Tell
the story about how they got engaged in a rip
joint after three dates.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But they you know, that's not discussed at all.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Eighty percent of kids who have a disability of some type, right,
especially autism, in these other issues, eighty percent of them
their parents get divorced.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's hard.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Look, you see, nobody talks to Nobody talks about how
important that is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
And you do a parent some parent, and look, I don't.
I'm I'm very hesitant to judge those decisions, right because
none of us are in that bedroom. Okay, but you do.
We see instances of this where one parent is willing
to devote themselves and the other parent maybe isn't right,
(24:13):
or the other parent feels overwhelmed or whatever it is,
and when they walk away, they think they're helping and
they're making it worse. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like
that's the message. I mean, I don't want to get
into specific examples out of privacy concerns, but there's some
there's a lot of examples that way, where I think
(24:34):
when you have a single parent where the other parent
walks away because it's just too hard, right in their heads, right,
it is too disruptive, you know. The sad fact is
this is the reminder that we don't give out drivers,
We don't give out the equivalent of a driver's license
to be a parent, right, And if we did, that
person probably wouldn't have qualified to be a parent if
(24:56):
they're willing to walk at the first sign of struggle.
But that is it is. It's funny you say it
that you were lucky to be born with two parents
willing to throw themselves into you, and if you didn't,
you might not be where you are today.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
One thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
And look, you know, it's important to keep in mind
this isn't a prescription, it's not a cure, it's not
anything else, but it is it is a.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Sure story, my story for you.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's my story.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It worked for me, it worked for my Dad's a
story of hope. And look, you know my dad wrote
the afterword, which I think is.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That was right. The first thing I thought of when
I started reading, is I wonder how your dad feels
about all this being public? And then of course you
reward the reader with that.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, the afterward from my dad and the forward from
George will and I had to fill two hundred and
forty pages in the middle. But he noted in the
afterward that the real hero in this is my mother,
right and because she held not only me but him together.
And you know, I didn't know this until I wrote
the book. Okay, So I decided to write the book
(26:02):
and tell this story, and I think, you know, try
to inspire and give people a lot of hope. And
I told you about all the times that you know,
I would come home humiliated, bullied, pushed around, isolated.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
At school, and I would take it out on my dad.
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
We'd go to my bedroom and he'd sit there and
listen to me, just hammer away about how angry I
was and how upset I was and how hard this
was and why am I having to do this and
why am I having to go through it?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
And he'd put me.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
To bed or leave and I'd read or whatever. And
I found this out now twenty five thirty years later.
He'd go downstairs, be ten eleven at night. My mom
would have been asleep or watching TV whatever goes to sleep,
and she'd come out and find him in the living
room all dark, just sitting on the couch crying himself,
having internalized everything that I had been through.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
She was his counselor yeah, and then you know.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
He would then talk to her. I mean, it really is.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I think, you know, the the amount of the role
that my mother played in what we talked about, that
I had two parents and that they.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Changed your Has this changed your relationship with your mom today?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
The more you learn, you know, it's a great question.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
I never went to therapy right now, now every kid
has a therapist, and on.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
The look, I that's you know, and to me, if
you have somebody to talk to, you have a therapist. Yep. Well,
and that's what therapy need is for us. For those
that don't have somebody to talk.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
No, I don't either, But it was just it was
just funny, you know, the typically in these situations, and
even I think kids who have great parents they have
a therapist. And but anyway, I never ad anything. So
this has been like going to therapy on national television.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right But my.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Dad and I still talk three or four times a day.
I still call him every night to say good night.
He is still my best friend, and that's.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Just him and I.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I don't know how else to say it is our
relationship changed because of it. No, I think certainly in
the course of writing this book and I talk about
and tell the story of Rachel and I meeting and
her sort of realizing.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
That as we got to know each other better that
there were clearly.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Moments that I would revert back and there still are,
right to sort of my old tendencies when I'm less
disciplined than I should be, and her learning to accept that. So, yeah,
I mean, I think I've gained through hearing the stories
and experiencing the emotion, not as a kid living in it,
but reliving it as an adult.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I've gained an.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Enormous more amount of respect and gratitude for my parents
than I already had, which was significant.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
So you offer it up, So I would love for
you to share. How did, yeah, how did you decide
how to share your your autism with your now wife?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think it just sort of came up, right.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
My parents didn't tell me until I was like twenty four,
twenty five that I had been diagnosed with what we
now know to be autism. Right, and Rachel and I
met and got set up on a blind date. Somebody
said I'm going to find you your wife. The next
day that person sent me a picture of Rachel and said,
I found your wife.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And there you go. I don't remember, like a Okay,
we need to talk, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Turns out that I have whatever it was, I think
probably just came up in conversation. But she has an
e Q that's off the charts. Mine was near freezing.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Probably did she pick up on it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I mean, I think she picked up on that. There
was you know, sort of a peculiar you know. So
there were.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Different can and sees, and I've gotten pretty good at
hiding them. It still comes out sometimes, and there's times
that she'll say, Okay, like you know, you're not seeing
this right, or hey, you need to be more thoughtful
about whatever, that kind of stuff. And you know, I
tell for people who watch this and are interesting. I
(30:19):
tell the story in the Book of the Faithful interview
on Fox News after the twenty twenty election, when I
went at it with Aaron Prainey, who was a Trump
spokesperson over the Trump claims that he had won and
was just going after her and look, I think probably
in the moment, did I know that that wasn't really
(30:41):
what Fox wanted me to do. Probably, But I think
there's part of condition personality, whatever you want to call it,
that I kind of didn't care.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, I'd always been taught to do the right thing.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
My dad always said, do the right thing, no matter
the consequences, and I, you know, it's sort of all
social graces and social stop points in your brain were lost.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Can I blame that on autism?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
I don't know, but it certainly goes to there's times
that sort of there there are miss social cues.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So you thought you missed a social cue in that moment.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I think if you go back and watch the tape,
it's pretty clear that all of a sudden the guardrails
came off.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
And so you do you attribute it to your autism?
Do you attribute it to here's a piece of information
you know to be true and you can't believe someone
is denying it.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I think that there's a there's an indignity to that
that comes over me and sort of and I find it.
And maybe it was because my dad taught me for
so long how important telling the truth was and standing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Up aunt truth that you got from your father, right,
And so in some ways that's going to get passed on.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah, And I found it sort offensive that she kept
saying something that was just objectively untrue.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And there you go.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
I don't ever like to blame you know, I blame
my autism. But I mean, I'll give you another example
that you know, people say, you know, well are you
you know, how did you get over autism?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
You never over it, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Two or three weeks ago, I was with my father
in law at his golf club and I was putting
my golf clubs in my travel bag, and I was late,
and I was focused on something else, and this older
gentleman come over and wanted to talk.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And one of the sort of very.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
You know, classic tendencies of autism is that you just
sort of focus on a task and you just everything
else gets blocked out and you kind of become obsessive.
And I was obsessive by getting my golf backpacked, and
I was horrifically rude to him.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
To the point that even he disrupted your routine and
that moment, you were like, I can't be disrupted, and
I just was.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Focused on I have to get the backpacked.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And I was really rude, and I afterwards thought, you
almost in the moment, I knew I should have just
stopped what I was doing, and if I was five
minutes late, fine, and I just didn't And it was
just and I thought to me, you know, boy, you're
better than this. You know your dad really taught and
so it's still there very.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Much so, but you knew.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, in the moment, I almost couldn't help myself.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But not not, but not. All folks that have autism
know that this is happening to them in a way.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I think I think it's very true. And again,
born unlucky, not a cure, not a prescription. My story
I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I it's autism society autism speaks, but says, you know,
if you've met a kid with autism, you've met one
kid with autism.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, so that you have to meet. You have to
understand where people are.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So when you are, where is it? What do you
feel like you? Where has it showcased itself as this
superpower for you?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I don't know, because I don't know what it's like
to live without it. I'm always me. I give that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I give that same answer when somebody says, when I
tell people that my dad died when I was sixteen?
Oh what was that like? I'm like, I don't know,
because I don't know any other way.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Well, you right, you just.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Don't know, right, you don't know it the other way.
You just go right, And that's what you're saying is yeah.
And in fact, the second I answered the question, you
answered that way, I almost That's why I just knocked
myself for it, because I know exactly you don't know
any different because you're living your life.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, and look, you know you you right. You just
talked about your dad dying when sixteen. That was really
the defining moment in my dad's life.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
It's the fork in the road for me. Everything goes
back to that moment. For me. It's now I'm fifty three,
and I still like that. It's a yesterday moment. I haven't.
You know. The weirdest thing that I'm going through now
is my son is now older than I was, and
so now I'm having experienced father son experiences with my
son as a freshman in college that I have nothing
(34:52):
to compare it to with my relationship with my father
because he wasn't there. So now they're all new to me.
I think about this all the time because I wonder,
am I screwing something up? What if I do it?
You know, I don't have any role model anymore, right, I,
in my head always had a role model up to
a point.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I hear you, I'm not a father.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I think this is the first parenting book ever written
not by a father but by the kid, and.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Which I think makes it more compelling because we do
a lot of these parenting books are written from the
parent's perspective, and you don't know whether it really worked
or not for the child, And I think this book
is in some ways more powerful because it's written from
your perspective rather than and you know, it's one of
those things I'd love to someday ask your father how
(35:42):
he would have you know, now that he saw your
version of this, does it change how he may describe
what he did? If that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I think it does. Good luck getting to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I imagine if you were willing to talk, the two of
you would be to hear together. But he's this is
your story to tell that.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That's what he said, And he really objects to me
calling him a hero, which I think is interesting. You know,
he lost his dad at sixteen. Yeah, so I think
it speaks exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
We got about five or so minutes here. Let's talk
about our industry, the media industry. I'm really rooting hard
for News Nation, thank you. And it's because what made
you know there is no one answer to our media problem. Right,
we need more voice and right it's a yes and situation.
(36:43):
And yet what you guys are trying to do, what
i'd like to think I'm trying to do, and what
I tried to do before, and the and the media
industry fights against us, which is, hey, you know, I'm
I'm a person who looks at at politics through the
prism of cremnalism, meaning when you're trying to govern three
hundred and fifty million people who are pretty evenly divided,
(37:06):
you can't do anything rashly. Right, if you want to
turn an aircraft carrier, you do it slowly, and you
do it sort of a little bit at a time,
because you want to bring everybody along. If you do
it too fast, you will do one step forward two
steps back. And yet we know in news or and
information is I always say the people most interested have
(37:29):
strong opinions, the people least interested, are watching sports or
are watching something else, right, and yet I get the
sense you're trying to appeal to that person somewhere between
the thirty five yard lines. It's center left, center right.
I'd like to say I'm doing the same thing, and
yet we know the business is driven by those between
(37:50):
the goal line and the thirty yard lines.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Right now, I think it's an excellent analysis.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
What's what do you think works and what do you
think has been a struggle in this idea of trying
to create something that's a bit more I don't know
if you want to call it centrist, moderate, everybody's got
their own description of it, but sort of somewhere broader
than what we've seen on traditional cable.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well, I would say a few things.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Number one, I think your analysis is right, yes, And
I will.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Add to it that.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
The economic incentives have changed in media, right, because when
there were three television networks, broadcasters and broadsheet newspapers one
per town.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
In order to make money, they had to appeal to everybody.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
You wanted to big up audience as possible.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Then as technology has changed, we've gone from broadcasting to cable,
to narrow casting to YouTube everything else. So now nobody
has to watch anything that questions their worldview or makes
them uncomfortable or whatever it is, because of social media algorithms,
is actually sort of tailored to you personally. So what
has been under served is the center because people mistook
(39:03):
the Center for being bored and uninvolved and uncaring and
watching sports and just sort of uninterested. And I think
what we've found is that there is a radical center.
There are people who are upset with both sides, and
that sleeping giant of the of most of America that's
between the thirty five yard lines, as you point out,
(39:25):
that's in a bell shaped curve.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's where most people live.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
They've been awoken, and they don't they do care about sports,
but now they're scared. They're scared of the extreme left
and they're scared of the extreme right. So where at
NewsNation we try to be is in the middle, calling
out both sides. Both sides get a hard get a
hard time, And I think, what's different about my show?
And you know I say this, I got asked or
(39:50):
invited not to return to Fox News because I've went
after Donald Trump and I have had Trump send down
the White House, doubt stories and commentaries I've done and said, look,
see how great of a job we're doing. Leland says,
we're doing a great job. So to me, that's what
a journalist should be. And I think people are yearning
for and that radical center for for somebody to call
(40:15):
balls and strikes in a sense on both sides. So
that's what we're trying to do. And look so far
it's working two ways. One, ratings are up significantly. We
beat MSNBC and CNN across the board last weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
And two, I think when.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I meet people and see them, it used to be
when I left Fox, like what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Oh, I went to News Nation, News whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And now I have people coming up to me saying,
I see you on NewsNation, and I love that you
give both sides a hard time, and I love that
I don't agree with you all the time. And it's like, oh, okay,
so it must be working.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
That's a that's that second part. I mean, you're right,
it's sort of like frankly, I experienced a brief period
of that, like you know, for a while too, where
have you gone? And then now just recently, people are saying, boy,
you're in my feeds all the time. I now see it,
I'm like, Okay, I'm this this thing is is working.
It is, but it is a it does feel like
(41:30):
one of my favorite expressions is peeing and a hurricane. Right,
Sometimes it feels I'm a look, I grew up so
far south. It's north. You know, Miami is the sixth
borough of New York. Right in Florida. You know, I joke,
we're so backwards in Florida. To go you have to
go north, to go south, because culturally, the farther north
you go the But I love me a good Southern
(41:53):
expression like that, and I cleaned it up a little bit,
but that is the sense sometimes, Right, you sit here
and I'll watch I'll watch a story go Haywire on cable,
and I'll sit there and say, you know, there's a
lot of other bigger stories happening that are much more consequential,
(42:15):
and yet we're obsessing over a vote. And I don't
want to be dismissive of the Epstein story. I'm not
dismissive of it. I'm not dismissive of what happened to
the victims. I think they deserve their say. But because
of the way the incentive structure works in media. There
was this obsession over covering it, and it was across
the board. It didn't matter whether it was on sort
(42:36):
of the legacy cable channels or on this and you're
sitting there going, you know, these tariffs are a much
bigger story. What's happening with the Venezuela, whether or not
the president has authority to bomb a boat in Venezuela,
whether or not you know, there are much more consequential stories,
but they're not as entertaining as Epstein, like, how do
you how do you fight that? I've got the luxury
(42:57):
where I don't have to have a boss these days,
but I, if I look, I remember those days where
all right, I want to do this and if I
want to do this story, I got to sort of
do this story so that I can do this story.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Look, I totally hear you. And that's the challenge in
the newsroom every day.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
And I and I think, to a certain extent, you know,
it's the challenge for all of us of what is important,
right because there is a curators.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I look at it this way, in some ways we're
all the same, and that we're all trying to curate
what we think people should be focusing on Yeah, and
you know, and and now there's a lot of curators
out there. We used to have three. As you point out,
it was Walter, it was mister Brinkley, right, and it
was whatever combination of unknown people. ABC would come up with,
(43:48):
well said right, well, yeah till Jennings really right. NBC
and ABC had had some NBC and CBS had real stability,
ABC less. So because they were always the number three, right,
they were always try to catch Walter or mister Brinkley.
I always call him mister Brinkley. I used his desk
at NBC, so I have a very fond I Brinkley
(44:09):
at Russer type of mindset there. But but it is
a Now there's a thousand of US curators or more.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Look, I think it goes back to all news is biased, right,
because it's done by humans, and it's also.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
You know what I like to do. I checked my
pulse and people ask me about bias, and I'm like,
you know, we're all born with original bias.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
You just talked about you had two parents. Not everybody's
born to two parents. Not everybody's born right, like you know,
not everybody's born in a situation that can survive, a
challenge that's in health or whatever, and it shapes you.
I would call that a bias right the fact.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Look, I was always told bias isn't having an opinion,
it's excluding opinions. That's how That's how I was taught,
and I keep that in mind actually sort of as
a north star. And look, bias isn't so much how
you cover the news, it's what you cover. Is you
just pointed out because of all your cover is Epstein,
(45:14):
There's a lot of other stories out there that have.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Different you've made a decision not to cover, right.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
So.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean I think it is. It's huge in
terms of what is decided to be covered. What I
think I try to think about, and you know, I
grew up in Missouri. I come from you know, middle class,
upper middle class family in the city or Saint Louis.
(45:46):
Saint Louis, but I spent a lot of time outside
of Saint Louis and I and I kind of try
to go back, and I spent a lot of time
in local news and small markets, and I spend a
lot of time you know, in Colorado in small markets.
So I I think that I tend to go back
to when people are drinking with their buddies on Saturday afternoon,
(46:06):
when they're watching college football, when they're playing golf.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
What are people talking about? How is it?
Speaker 3 (46:11):
How are their lives being changed and affected? And in
trying to cover it through that prism, you know why
this matters.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
You came up through the business, through local markets.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I did.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Most people younger than you have not. I know, it's terrible,
I and I didn't. I came in a different way.
I was. I worked on a trade publication about campaign politics.
I remember there was a moment in the house.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Well I'm going to give you one quick thing, But
you were out in the field. Sure know what it's
like to hustle the stories, not in Washington, not you
know what it's like to be on the trail.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
But the reason I bring up local is that I
really believe the loss of local is why they don't
trust us as much as they usual. Because local was
our character reference for the national right. People knew who
the local journalists were. People's families knew, oh, yeah, my
son goes to school with his daughter or whatever it is, right,
(47:10):
They knew they were members of the community, and that
created a level of trust locally that could never be
matched nationally because the national didn't live there, right, the
local lived there. And I also view that local journalism
is different from national journalism in that on the local level,
you're there to help people live their lives. Ninety percent
(47:31):
of the stories local news does is to help people
live navigate their life in that community. National news is different, right,
it's about telling you what you need to know in civics,
like what you need to know about the country as
a whole, which of course in and of itself, is
more divisive. Local news much less divisive. But I think
the loss of local news, as I joke, a man
(47:53):
named Craig came along and said, you know, classified ads
ought to be free. YadA, YadA, YadA. We destroyed the
entire local news ecosystem, right. We didn't fully appreciate how
much that revenue stream kept so many local publications together.
And yet I look at our media problem today and
I think the loss of local is what is the biggest.
(48:14):
It's sort of like a house can stand up, but
there's always one pillar that it is keeping the whole
thing up together. And it turned out local news was
that pillar, and when we wiped it out, it collapsed
the entire information ecosystem as far as I'm concerned, which,
given your experience coming through local, how would you revitalize it? O.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Look, I got taught in one of the best parts
of writing Born Lucky is having been able to say
really nice things about people who helped me, who understood
that I was a weird kid and socially awkward and
therefore was a target and protected me or took a
chance on me in one way or another. So we
use the names of all the really nice people, And
(48:57):
I didn't use the names of anybody who was mean
to me because it wasn't about settling scores, and I
thought that was important.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Some people would have done it the exact opposite way.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
Well, I am my father's son, but a guy named
Brad Remington, who is my first news director in Saint Louis, Missouri,
when I was an intern at KTBI and then hired
me as an anchor at KTVR and Denver.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Content drives viewership.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
If you put out good content, they will come because
people are the viewer, and people are smart. They are
extraordinarily interested in their own city, town, state, country, and
that if you fill that void with good, meaningful news
(49:42):
and information, people will respond to it. And I think
that that is the lesson that good journalism is rewarded
because it's something that people crave and always have.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
People always want to.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Know what the news is, and I so, yes, it's
become commoditized. The flip side of that is, I think
that if you if you offer something special, if you
if you really offer people compelling, must read, must know information.
I remember there was research done in the nineteen nineties
(50:15):
about why people watch local news.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The number one reason was the weather.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
The number two reason was so they didn't sound stupid
at the water cooler. So if you can provide them
that information and that context, well.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's a thing that's always a reminder that what we
really are as educators, we just never call ourselves that.
I like that because ultimately we're helping. We're giving people
information they didn't know. Hopefully, if we're a good teacher,
we're putting it in context. If we're a great teacher,
we're explaining you know, the origin of it and all
(50:48):
those things. But ultimately we're educators and are you are
we good at Are you a good educator? Are you
a bad educator, but you're educating no matter what you're
doing when you're in the news and information business. Hey, Leland,
I have to tell you it's good to get to
know you because reading the book, I find it, I
find it weirdly unfair in a situation like this. Suddenly
(51:08):
I feel like I know a lot about you right
in this situation, and it almost feels upside down. I mean,
you've put yourself out here well and so people and
I admire it, but it's you gave up a little privacy.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Well, if it helps people, and if it helps parents
and family members of kids who are struggling, whatever it was,
to be more supportive, to show up more for those kids,
to know that they're really making a difference, it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Look the number, you know. The simplest way I've described
it is that this is a reminder that parenting is.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Everything well, and I hope that there's enough parents who
gained something from it that it makes it so that
there's some lives that have been changed, and then it'll
be worth it. So, I mean, you know, Born Lucky
is my story. I always say, you know, it is
my book. It's about me, but it's not for me.
(52:08):
It's for parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles who
who have a kid, and what parent doesn't want to help.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Their kid one that's a reminder what we all have
in common. Hey, Leland, congratulations, Thanks Chuck,
Well, joining me now is a familiar face to many
of you. It's Leland Vitter. He is a anchor at
News Nation, long time before that, longtime correspondent and journalist
for Fox News, and he's out with a new personal
memoir of sorts. It's called Born Lucky, A dedicated Father,
A grateful son, in my Journey with Autism. It's a
(00:28):
very moving book. And if you're somebody, if you're a parent,
if you have a child struggling with some of these issues,
I think you're going to find this story in this
book quite inspiring. And with this issue in the news,
it is worth looking at how families deal with this,
(00:49):
not how governed. We're going to look at this from
a family perspective, not necessarily a government perspective. Leland, Welcome
to the podcast. Nice to see you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Great to be with you.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
I think we would say, is I've watched you for many,
many years on radio. They would say, right, you know,
longtime listener, first time call. So it's great, great to
be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you know, I had I found your book very
compelling and it reminded me of my friend. And I'm
sure you know this story because you're probably familiar with
them with my friend Ron Fournier, longtime political journalists that
the Associated Press, who wrote wrote a book about his
journey with his son and the battle that they had
(01:33):
and how and just your stories about how Principles were
treating you and your parents and there, and it's just
it's just such a reminder how little the public does
understand autism, understand childhood development issues, and how little we
understand is how you can overcome them, right, And I think, yeah,
(01:55):
and I think that to me feels like the purpose
of this book.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yes, yeah, yeah, Look you said it right, and I
think you've picked up on it. Chuck when you said,
for any parent, grandparent, aunt uncle, who has a kid
who is struggling, because it goes way beyond autism to ADHD, anxiety,
physical disabilities, just the general bullying that goes on now
(02:19):
and is so aggressive and there's so many kids who
are struggling having such a hard time. And when I
was diagnosed, you know, when my parents and I write
this in the book, right, they know there's something wrong
with me. If a kid would touch me, I'd turn
around and slug them. I was really repellent to kids.
And they go into one of those little psychology testing centers,
you know, linoleum floors, crummy chairs, We've all been there,
(02:43):
stale coffee, old magazines. And they bring me back and
take one to take me over to, you know, play
with blocks or whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
They talk to my parents and they look at my parents.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They said, we really can't imagine what's going on inside
his head.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
And my dad goes, is there anything we can do? Anything?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
You know, he's desperate, And she goes, generally, not, what
year is this? This is the mid eighties, right, not
just it wasn't understood.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
What it was. I was just gonna say, like, you know,
it's I was my under I felt like this is
a classic story of the eighties. I don't think that's
the response the school gives you. If this is two
thousand and seven or two thousand and eight, what do you.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Think, Yeah, I think that's I think that's fair.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I think those still to this point, there are so
many parents who feel helpless because there is this idea,
right in my dance, is there anything we can do?
And she said generally not, but you know, if the
kids smart me wants it, there are a few things,
but there is now even more in our society, this
desire to put kids who have any type of special
(03:49):
need in bubble wrap, right, to give them medicine, and
to say meet them where they're at, and you have
to accept them is who you are, they are, and
you have to tell them that this is the superpower
and all of these things that if my dad had
done to me, I would have had no chance to
operate in the world that I operate in now, because
(04:11):
his method was not about adapting the world to me.
It was about adapting me to the world. And he
was brutally honest about it, right, Chuck, And that's not
something parents are told to do. You know, when I
was in seventh grade, I wanted to play tennis. My
dad was a phenomenally gifted athlete, still is, and I
writing born lucky. How he took me to a couple
of tennis lessons and after the third or fourth one,
(04:33):
he looked at me and he said, I'm your father.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
I love you.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I will come to every tennis lesson. I will drive you,
I will cheer you on. You will never be able
to play tennis.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
You just can't do it.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
You don't have the coordination, you don't have the hand,
eye coordination, you don't have the depth perception, you don't
have the motor skills, it's never going to work, which
considering I really hope that tennis was my way into
asking this girl out. I was heartbroken, but I knew
then my dad would always tell me the truth. And
then when he said you can do something, boy, that
(05:04):
meant something all of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It's interesting what you just said about you felt. You
said your dad wanted you to adapt to the world
that you live in, not make the world adapt to you. Right, boy,
if this is not sort of what I would argue.
You know, we sit here and we have these these fights,
sometimes through left right prisms, but I don't think we're
(05:27):
having left These are because that's how in many ways,
that's how I was raised where and now you know,
especially if you're from a if you're if you're seen
as from a group that isn't part of the majority,
whether it's a religious minority, whether it's a gender minority,
whether it's you know, something else. Those that succeed are
(05:49):
the ones that learn how to adapt to the world
as it is and then slowly but surely fight for
acceptance versus h trying to turn you know, three hundred
and forty nine million people to your way right, right,
which is which is something that you know, if everybody
behaved that way, we'd never get anything done as a country.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah. I think that's a perfect point.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
And I think it's one of those things, right, You've
got to meet people where they're at, and the world
is where it's at. Especially you know, when I was
a little kid, and I think about this story for
fifth grade about my dad really realizing there's a problem
fifth grade going to a small private school. He comes
over to check on me. I'm getting bullied every day.
I'm coming home crying every day my sister.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
And this is that private school. Yeah, your parents are
paying yea in theory extra right, well, you know, you know,
or at least more personalized more. I mean, why did
we move from public to private? It was for that
right too.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
To be fair, though, you know, my parents didn't tell anybody.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
They didn't tell anybody that I was diagnosed with anything
because my dad said, I didn't want you to be
defined by it, and I didn't want you to all
you have that. And I think people can say, you know,
good things are bad things about that, but it certainly
was a different way, and it now forced me to
know that I could work through anything but fifth grade
(07:16):
private school. He comes in to see the pe teacher.
I'm in pe and my dad goes, hey, how's he
doing in This guy who he knew, big big former
football player knew my dad from football, said I think
he's doing better today, you know better this week.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
He goes, great, let's go see him in pee.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
And the guy goes, I don't think that's a good idea,
and they're looking down on all the fields and dad
goes wise as well. He says, I've had to put
him with the girls because I had to protect him
from all the boys. So you think about that from
a father's perspective, a fifth grade father hearing that the
only way for the pe teacher to protect his kid
is to put him with the girls.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
My dad said okay, thanks and walked off.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
But I think that sort of shows you where I
was at in my social ability to interact with Some
people are sort of magnetic in their attraction of friends
and kids.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I was repellent.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
So I remember my friend Ron describing the issue with
his son, which was you know that you had to
learn social cues right it sounds like that's what you,
that's what you your father really helped you with, which
is sure to how to read other In some ways
we don't realize that we're We quickly learned how to
(08:30):
read people, but not everybody can. And sometimes you, just
like you might need extra help to learn nectually read words,
some people need extra help to read social cues. Right,
is that a fair description?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Very fair?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And I needed both, you know, two halves to an
IQ test, twenty points spread between the two halves represents
a learning disability.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
I was between genius and.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Mentally retarded, so half the test I was genius, half
the test test I was mentally target so seventy plus
points spread. So I needed a lot of help learning
how to read words and forcing through that. And then
also you pointed out social skills. So one of the
things my dad did was he would take me to
lunch with mister Todd.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Right. And it was easy because I didn't have any friends.
I didn't have anything else to do with my life.
My dad was my only friend.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
And I loved interacting with adults because I could talk
to them about things that I talked to my dad about,
about politics, about sports, about not so much sports, but politics, business,
all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And we'd go to much with mister Todd.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
And this is a perfect example because I would just
be badgering the hell out of you with questions, how
do you book your guests, how do you decide what
politicians telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How do you come up with your questions?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
On and on and on, and my dad, rather than
sort of saying you know, okay, lucky, stop or enough,
he would tap his watch, and that was my moment.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
To be that was a social cue. He was teaching you.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
That was a social queue.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
So to tap his watch, that's my method message to
stop talking, but also to bookmarkt right, because then we
would go back and he'd say, okay, mister Todd was
talking about going on vacation with his kids or taking
his wife out to dinner on Saturday night. Why did
you think that was the right time to ask him
about his show or politics or whatever it was. And
(10:22):
it was teaching me how to understand and see the
world through as you point out, the natural social skills
that so many other people have. It's a small example,
but it was a way to actually teach me in
real time. What was happening rather than just say, look,
you know he can't he can't come out with anybody,
(10:43):
which at the time I really couldn't. But at the
same time, if you say to a kid okay, stop, okay,
not now, okay, whatever, it embarrasses the kid.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
And so that was the line he had to toe.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Was there a moment for you where it was like
you right, got it? Yeah? Or is this a gradual
thing where all of a sudden your dad said, do
you realize that you know, you're no different than anybody
else out there in the world.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Ook.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
He always made it clear to me that I was different,
and what he would tell me, you know, through the
bullying and isolation of high school.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
I have had a teacher in eighth grade.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Who said to me in an art class, you know,
tables and art around, you know, in front of the
whole class. He said, you know, if my dog was
as ugly as you, I'd shave its ass and make
it walk backwards. And I came home that night he just, yeah, yeah,
try that one on for size.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Gosh, that's something you don't forget.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
I guess, no, no, you don't, And I don't forget
his name either, But we didn't put it in the book.
I walked across the street back home that afternoon. My
dad was waiting for me, as he was every every
time that I came home from school, every day twenty
and I was just crying. I said, I was just
humiliated today and told them what had happened. And he
(12:05):
talked me through it and worked through it.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
And what was interesting at the end.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Of the conversation every night he'd say to me, Look,
the qualities that make you unpopular now and that you
are picked on now and that make you humiliated now,
is what's going to be your strength later on. And
it wasn't ever about academics. It wasn't ever about being
smart or successful. It was about character and hard work
and self esteem was earned, not given right.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know. I started as a kid doing two hundred push.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Ups a day at six or seven years old, because
Dad was like, I can teach you that hard work
is rewarded and that goals matter. So that that was
where he would He was very clear to me that
I was different. I think you'll appreciate this, Chuck. Living
where you and I both live now, I used to
say I never liked anyone who liked high school, because
(12:55):
the values of high school are so screwed up that
if you like high school, there's something wrong with you.
And there's a little bit to be said about that
about Washington too, if you really like.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
One student council. I know, I have a friend of
mine who grew up in Arlington, Leland. You'll appreciate this.
I don't mean to interrupt your train of thought there,
but she loves to remind like she's a native Arlingtonian,
which means she's grown up in Washington, much different than
ninety percent of the people that live in this community
of the DMB. And she said, just remember, everybody who
(13:24):
comes to Washington wanted to be student council president. Doesn't
mean they ever became student council president, but they all
want it.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So you have.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
The point is it's a town of busybodies, right like
it is. It is, it is, it is, It is
that part of high school on steroids.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Yeah, look, you know, the best training for a Washington
newsroom may have been middle school.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
I think some people in Congress would say that as well.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
I think Congress is the only one who has a
lower approval rating than the media right now.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
But it's interesting you say this about high school and
about Let me ask this though, why'd you go public
with the story? You know, I didn't I didn't know this,
and I wouldn't have I would have never picked up
You know, sometimes I'd like to think, oh, so and
so you know, you hear this phrase on the spectrum? Yeah,
(14:18):
and at this point I don't love the phrase because
aren't we all on the spectrum? It just depends, right,
I mean, yeah, we're all on the spectrum. So it's
this weird shorthand that we've given to Hey, they're a
little bit off center from whatever spectrum is and all
this stuff. But why'd you choose to share your story?
(14:40):
Because in some ways it sounds like your dad's goal
was to help you adapt so that you didn't have
to constantly say I'm different, treat me different.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, no, look, I mean you think about where my
dad was.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I think you have to sort of baseline this seventh
grade start a new school. My parents are hoping for
this change, sitting in they get called in two or
three weeks into school, thinking like, hey, this is just
a normal check in, right, you have kids, and you
know what you know this is like and everybody sat
in the principal's office, and the principal looks, starts the
meeting off cold of my parents, you know, most.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Of the school here.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
In fact, everybody here really thinks Lucky is quite weird.
That's a seventh grade principaletize.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You know. I saw that line, you know, and you're
just sitting there going, yeah, how do you become a
principal writing about a kid that way? Yeah? Like it
really well, I'm not trying to like, you know, sound
like you fire all these people, but my god, right.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And then right, and then you know, so arrow number
one through my parents' heart, and and look they know
that in some ways it's true that I was really
different and really odd. And then she follows up with
and I think he and frankly, I think he's pretty
weird too.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
So what told you is that people who were supposed.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
To protect me we're gonna weren't going to and thought
it was my fault. Again, great training for a news
but uh, the reason I went public with it is
because I think we are in a reckoning about parenting
in America, and I think parents need to know there
is real hope. George Will wrote the forward to this
(16:16):
and he said, this is the proof of the mountain
moving power of printal love. And I think parents have
been told for so long, you know, let the village
raise your kid, you know, let let let your kid
be them and and sort of the experts know better,
and there's this new methodology and on and on and
on and told parents basically not to take control.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And mine did.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
And I thought it was a really important story for
people to hear.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I well, that is a that is a great way
to frame it, because you know, the fact is this
is true not just when it comes to parenting, which
is the parents need to take more control, right, And
there's there is this like perception that somehow you don't
(17:01):
have the ability to change things. It's also true with
the healthcare system, right if you don't take control of
your own medical care. And by the way, remember that
the doctors work for you. You don't work for the doctors.
These people work for you. You don't work for that
type of mindset. But you, the parent, have a lot
more station here and that you also have a lot
(17:23):
more responsibility when it comes to your kids. I mean,
I look at when you when you it feels like
we have a a lot of broken young men out
there right who are susceptible to all sorts of violent
ideologies or violent actions. Perhaps some of this is social
(17:47):
media or you know, whatever we're doing here, but you know,
there is a through line that I notice in some
of these people, whether it's a school shoot and all
that is, there is some sort of lack of parenting
or a parent not in the picture, or a parent
sort of not seeing things. What I find your story
(18:09):
to be inspiring. It's a reminder that the parent needs
to take control here, because nobody else is going to
love this kid enough to do the kid right. Only
the parent.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
One thousand percent. I mean, there's so many different ways
to go with that.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Right when I was diagnosed with autism, I said this,
you know, in the book, they didn't really know what
it was.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It wasn't a spectrum.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Was either you're profoundly autistic or you're nothing and a
pervasive elemental dislay.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Now it's one in thirty one kids boys, one in twelve.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Do you think, by the way.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
What is what is your understanding of it? Are we
learning to diagnose it better or is it increasing in
the society.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I think the answer to that is both. And what
I find interesting is is that.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
There's lots of theories about what autism, what it's not.
You know, Oh no, it's not rising, it's just we're
diagnosing more. Oh no, it can't be vaccines.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Don't know this.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
There's nobody who will tell you definitively this is what
it is. This is why we're seeing this. And by
the way, you Leland, who clearly was diagnosed with what
we now know to be autism, just got married to
this wonderful woman who you want to have kids with.
Here's we know that it's a higher chance that I
will have an autistic child, but we don't know why,
(19:27):
and we don't know if there's anything that can be
done either during pregnancy or.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
That means that implies it's genetic.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
There's some genetic component, right, But at.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
The same time we are having this debate about is
it outside chemicals or something like that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
No, I mean, I think the answer is we don't know,
and I think, you know, I think that intel science
can tell us the answer to that. We need to
keep looking. It should be you know, we've cured a
not cured. You can live now with AIDS. Is no
longer a dessence, dozens of cancers you can live with
over the past forty years. That we're destined is we
(20:02):
can replace your joints and have you become a bionic man.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Diabetes, all this stuff and autis and you know it did.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's not vaccines, but he could, like, come on, guys.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
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Their fee is free unless they win. Well, I just
(21:24):
interviewed Michael Osterholme. It was an expert on pandemics and
all this stuff. And he has a very good way
that he describes science. He says, science isn't truth. Science
is the pursuit of truth, right, And we also have
to be humble about science, meaning it does change as
we learn more, right, And that's it. And the fact is,
(21:47):
like we thought AIDS was a death sentence, as you
point out, we thought cancer itself was a death Now
now all cancers aren't. You know, we're getting there. It's
from my father died of hepatitis C in nineteen eighty eight.
If he gets diagnosed with appetitis seed, today you take
a pill and you're fine. But in nineteen eighty eight,
by the way modern medicine we sort of you know,
(22:08):
in the eighty eight, you know, you know, I would
have said, oh, the eighties are and yet in hindsight, right,
that's like, you know, it feels like the nineteenth century,
and it compares.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
It's a great point.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
What is I think, you know I had I had
doctor Jah and not doctor Jay Boticharia.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I have doctor John tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
It's amazing how TV works that way. But a Bouticharia
ahead of the NIH that was his message. He goes,
we have to be humble enough to say we don't know,
and he said very few scientists are. But to pick
up on what you were saying about fatherhood and everything else.
This tells fathers you can make this enormous difference, and
you should. And I again, over the past ten or
(22:51):
fifteen years, fathers have been really sort of told to
take a back seat and that, you know, not to
sort of demand more of their sons and demand that
there's stand up and take responsibility. And I don't, you know,
doing two hundred push ups a day when you were
five or six years old.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Is not you know.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
I'm sure now he would be counseled against that because you're,
you know, doing whatever.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
And it was a very different way.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
And I write in the book, you know and born
lucky that how lucky I am also that I had
two parents eighty you know, and a family say together,
my parents have been married for fifty plus years. Tell
the story about how they got engaged in a rip
joint after three dates.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
But they you know, that's not discussed at all.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Eighty percent of kids who have a disability of some type, right,
especially autism, in these other issues, eighty percent of them
their parents get divorced.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
It's hard.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Look, you see, nobody talks to Nobody talks about how
important that is.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
And you do a parent some parent, and look, I don't.
I'm I'm very hesitant to judge those decisions, right because
none of us are in that bedroom. Okay, but you do.
We see instances of this where one parent is willing
to devote themselves and the other parent maybe isn't right,
(24:13):
or the other parent feels overwhelmed or whatever it is,
and when they walk away, they think they're helping and
they're making it worse. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like
that's the message. I mean, I don't want to get
into specific examples out of privacy concerns, but there's some
there's a lot of examples that way, where I think
(24:34):
when you have a single parent where the other parent
walks away because it's just too hard, right in their heads, right,
it is too disruptive, you know. The sad fact is
this is the reminder that we don't give out drivers,
We don't give out the equivalent of a driver's license
to be a parent, right, And if we did, that
person probably wouldn't have qualified to be a parent if
(24:56):
they're willing to walk at the first sign of struggle.
But that is it is. It's funny you say it
that you were lucky to be born with two parents
willing to throw themselves into you, and if you didn't,
you might not be where you are today.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
One thousand percent.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
And look, you know, it's important to keep in mind
this isn't a prescription, it's not a cure, it's not
anything else, but it is it is a.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Sure story, my story for you.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
It's my story.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
It worked for me, it worked for my Dad's a
story of hope. And look, you know my dad wrote
the afterword, which I think is.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
That was right. The first thing I thought of when
I started reading, is I wonder how your dad feels
about all this being public? And then of course you
reward the reader with that.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, the afterward from my dad and the forward from
George will and I had to fill two hundred and
forty pages in the middle. But he noted in the
afterward that the real hero in this is my mother,
right and because she held not only me but him together.
And you know, I didn't know this until I wrote
the book. Okay, So I decided to write the book
(26:02):
and tell this story, and I think, you know, try
to inspire and give people a lot of hope. And
I told you about all the times that you know,
I would come home humiliated, bullied, pushed around, isolated.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
At school, and I would take it out on my dad.
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:19):
We'd go to my bedroom and he'd sit there and
listen to me, just hammer away about how angry I
was and how upset I was and how hard this
was and why am I having to do this and
why am I having to go through it?
Speaker 2 (26:30):
And he'd put me.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
To bed or leave and I'd read or whatever. And
I found this out now twenty five thirty years later.
He'd go downstairs, be ten eleven at night. My mom
would have been asleep or watching TV whatever goes to sleep,
and she'd come out and find him in the living
room all dark, just sitting on the couch crying himself,
having internalized everything that I had been through.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
She was his counselor yeah, and then you know.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
He would then talk to her. I mean, it really is.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
I think, you know, the the amount of the role
that my mother played in what we talked about, that
I had two parents and that they.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Changed your Has this changed your relationship with your mom today?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
The more you learn, you know, it's a great question.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
I never went to therapy right now, now every kid
has a therapist, and on.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
The look, I that's you know, and to me, if
you have somebody to talk to, you have a therapist. Yep. Well,
and that's what therapy need is for us. For those
that don't have somebody to talk.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
No, I don't either, But it was just it was
just funny, you know, the typically in these situations, and
even I think kids who have great parents they have
a therapist. And but anyway, I never ad anything. So
this has been like going to therapy on national television.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right But my.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Dad and I still talk three or four times a day.
I still call him every night to say good night.
He is still my best friend, and that's.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Just him and I.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
I don't know how else to say it is our
relationship changed because of it. No, I think certainly in
the course of writing this book and I talk about
and tell the story of Rachel and I meeting and
her sort of realizing.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
That as we got to know each other better that
there were clearly.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
Moments that I would revert back and there still are,
right to sort of my old tendencies when I'm less
disciplined than I should be, and her learning to accept that. So, yeah,
I mean, I think I've gained through hearing the stories
and experiencing the emotion, not as a kid living in it,
but reliving it as an adult.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
I've gained an.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Enormous more amount of respect and gratitude for my parents
than I already had, which was significant.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
So you offer it up, So I would love for
you to share. How did, yeah, how did you decide
how to share your your autism with your now wife?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I think it just sort of came up, right.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
My parents didn't tell me until I was like twenty four,
twenty five that I had been diagnosed with what we
now know to be autism. Right, and Rachel and I
met and got set up on a blind date. Somebody
said I'm going to find you your wife. The next
day that person sent me a picture of Rachel and said,
I found your wife.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And there you go. I don't remember, like a Okay,
we need to talk, you know.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Turns out that I have whatever it was, I think
probably just came up in conversation. But she has an
e Q that's off the charts. Mine was near freezing.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Probably did she pick up on it.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I mean, I think she picked up on that. There
was you know, sort of a peculiar you know. So
there were.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Different can and sees, and I've gotten pretty good at
hiding them. It still comes out sometimes, and there's times
that she'll say, Okay, like you know, you're not seeing
this right, or hey, you need to be more thoughtful
about whatever, that kind of stuff. And you know, I
tell for people who watch this and are interesting. I
(30:19):
tell the story in the Book of the Faithful interview
on Fox News after the twenty twenty election, when I
went at it with Aaron Prainey, who was a Trump
spokesperson over the Trump claims that he had won and
was just going after her and look, I think probably
in the moment, did I know that that wasn't really
(30:41):
what Fox wanted me to do. Probably, But I think
there's part of condition personality, whatever you want to call it,
that I kind of didn't care.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
You know, I'd always been taught to do the right thing.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
My dad always said, do the right thing, no matter
the consequences, and I, you know, it's sort of all
social graces and social stop points in your brain were lost.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Can I blame that on autism?
Speaker 3 (31:08):
I don't know, but it certainly goes to there's times
that sort of there there are miss social cues.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So you thought you missed a social cue in that moment.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I think if you go back and watch the tape,
it's pretty clear that all of a sudden the guardrails
came off.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
And so you do you attribute it to your autism?
Do you attribute it to here's a piece of information
you know to be true and you can't believe someone
is denying it.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I think that there's a there's an indignity to that
that comes over me and sort of and I find it.
And maybe it was because my dad taught me for
so long how important telling the truth was and standing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Up aunt truth that you got from your father, right,
And so in some ways that's going to get passed on.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Yeah, And I found it sort offensive that she kept
saying something that was just objectively untrue.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
And there you go.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
I don't ever like to blame you know, I blame
my autism. But I mean, I'll give you another example
that you know, people say, you know, well are you
you know, how did you get over autism?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Well?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
You never over it, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Two or three weeks ago, I was with my father
in law at his golf club and I was putting
my golf clubs in my travel bag, and I was late,
and I was focused on something else, and this older
gentleman come over and wanted to talk.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
And one of the sort of very.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
You know, classic tendencies of autism is that you just
sort of focus on a task and you just everything
else gets blocked out and you kind of become obsessive.
And I was obsessive by getting my golf backpacked, and
I was horrifically rude to him.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
To the point that even he disrupted your routine and
that moment, you were like, I can't be disrupted, and
I just was.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Focused on I have to get the backpacked.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
And I was really rude, and I afterwards thought, you
almost in the moment, I knew I should have just
stopped what I was doing, and if I was five
minutes late, fine, and I just didn't And it was
just and I thought to me, you know, boy, you're
better than this. You know your dad really taught and
so it's still there very.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Much so, but you knew.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, in the moment, I almost couldn't help myself.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
But not not, but not. All folks that have autism
know that this is happening to them in a way.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, I think I think it's very true. And again,
born unlucky, not a cure, not a prescription. My story
I can't remember.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
I it's autism society autism speaks, but says, you know,
if you've met a kid with autism, you've met one
kid with autism.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Yeah, so that you have to meet. You have to
understand where people are.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So when you are, where is it? What do you
feel like you? Where has it showcased itself as this
superpower for you?
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I don't know, because I don't know what it's like
to live without it. I'm always me. I give that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
I give that same answer when somebody says, when I
tell people that my dad died when I was sixteen?
Oh what was that like? I'm like, I don't know,
because I don't know any other way.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Well, you right, you just.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Don't know, right, you don't know it the other way.
You just go right, And that's what you're saying is yeah.
And in fact, the second I answered the question, you
answered that way, I almost That's why I just knocked
myself for it, because I know exactly you don't know
any different because you're living your life.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Yeah, and look, you know you you right. You just
talked about your dad dying when sixteen. That was really
the defining moment in my dad's life.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
It's the fork in the road for me. Everything goes
back to that moment. For me. It's now I'm fifty three,
and I still like that. It's a yesterday moment. I haven't.
You know. The weirdest thing that I'm going through now
is my son is now older than I was, and
so now I'm having experienced father son experiences with my
son as a freshman in college that I have nothing
(34:52):
to compare it to with my relationship with my father
because he wasn't there. So now they're all new to me.
I think about this all the time because I wonder,
am I screwing something up? What if I do it?
You know, I don't have any role model anymore, right, I,
in my head always had a role model up to
a point.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I hear you, I'm not a father.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
I think this is the first parenting book ever written
not by a father but by the kid, and.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Which I think makes it more compelling because we do
a lot of these parenting books are written from the
parent's perspective, and you don't know whether it really worked
or not for the child, And I think this book
is in some ways more powerful because it's written from
your perspective rather than and you know, it's one of
those things I'd love to someday ask your father how
(35:42):
he would have you know, now that he saw your
version of this, does it change how he may describe
what he did? If that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Yeah, I think it does. Good luck getting to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
I imagine if you were willing to talk, the two of
you would be to hear together. But he's this is
your story to tell that.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
That's what he said, And he really objects to me
calling him a hero, which I think is interesting. You know,
he lost his dad at sixteen. Yeah, so I think
it speaks exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
We got about five or so minutes here. Let's talk
about our industry, the media industry. I'm really rooting hard
for News Nation, thank you. And it's because what made
you know there is no one answer to our media problem. Right,
we need more voice and right it's a yes and situation.
(36:43):
And yet what you guys are trying to do, what
i'd like to think I'm trying to do, and what
I tried to do before, and the and the media
industry fights against us, which is, hey, you know, I'm
I'm a person who looks at at politics through the
prism of cremnalism, meaning when you're trying to govern three
hundred and fifty million people who are pretty evenly divided,
(37:06):
you can't do anything rashly. Right, if you want to
turn an aircraft carrier, you do it slowly, and you
do it sort of a little bit at a time,
because you want to bring everybody along. If you do
it too fast, you will do one step forward two
steps back. And yet we know in news or and
information is I always say the people most interested have
(37:29):
strong opinions, the people least interested, are watching sports or
are watching something else, right, and yet I get the
sense you're trying to appeal to that person somewhere between
the thirty five yard lines. It's center left, center right.
I'd like to say I'm doing the same thing, and
yet we know the business is driven by those between
(37:50):
the goal line and the thirty yard lines.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
Right now, I think it's an excellent analysis.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
What's what do you think works and what do you
think has been a struggle in this idea of trying
to create something that's a bit more I don't know
if you want to call it centrist, moderate, everybody's got
their own description of it, but sort of somewhere broader
than what we've seen on traditional cable.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
Well, I would say a few things.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Number one, I think your analysis is right, yes, And
I will.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Add to it that.
Speaker 3 (38:24):
The economic incentives have changed in media, right, because when
there were three television networks, broadcasters and broadsheet newspapers one
per town.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
In order to make money, they had to appeal to everybody.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
You wanted to big up audience as possible.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Then as technology has changed, we've gone from broadcasting to cable,
to narrow casting to YouTube everything else. So now nobody
has to watch anything that questions their worldview or makes
them uncomfortable or whatever it is, because of social media algorithms,
is actually sort of tailored to you personally. So what
has been under served is the center because people mistook
(39:03):
the Center for being bored and uninvolved and uncaring and
watching sports and just sort of uninterested. And I think
what we've found is that there is a radical center.
There are people who are upset with both sides, and
that sleeping giant of the of most of America that's
between the thirty five yard lines, as you point out,
(39:25):
that's in a bell shaped curve.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
That's where most people live.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
They've been awoken, and they don't they do care about sports,
but now they're scared. They're scared of the extreme left
and they're scared of the extreme right. So where at
NewsNation we try to be is in the middle, calling
out both sides. Both sides get a hard get a
hard time, And I think, what's different about my show?
And you know I say this, I got asked or
(39:50):
invited not to return to Fox News because I've went
after Donald Trump and I have had Trump send down
the White House, doubt stories and commentaries I've done and said, look,
see how great of a job we're doing. Leland says,
we're doing a great job. So to me, that's what
a journalist should be. And I think people are yearning
for and that radical center for for somebody to call
(40:15):
balls and strikes in a sense on both sides. So
that's what we're trying to do. And look so far
it's working two ways. One, ratings are up significantly. We
beat MSNBC and CNN across the board last weekend.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
And two, I think when.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I meet people and see them, it used to be
when I left Fox, like what happened to you?
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Oh, I went to News Nation, News whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
And now I have people coming up to me saying,
I see you on NewsNation, and I love that you
give both sides a hard time, and I love that
I don't agree with you all the time. And it's like, oh, okay,
so it must be working.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
That's a that's that second part. I mean, you're right,
it's sort of like frankly, I experienced a brief period
of that, like you know, for a while too, where
have you gone? And then now just recently, people are saying, boy,
you're in my feeds all the time. I now see it,
I'm like, Okay, I'm this this thing is is working.
It is, but it is a it does feel like
(41:30):
one of my favorite expressions is peeing and a hurricane. Right,
Sometimes it feels I'm a look, I grew up so
far south. It's north. You know, Miami is the sixth
borough of New York. Right in Florida. You know, I joke,
we're so backwards in Florida. To go you have to
go north, to go south, because culturally, the farther north
you go the But I love me a good Southern
(41:53):
expression like that, and I cleaned it up a little bit,
but that is the sense sometimes, Right, you sit here
and I'll watch I'll watch a story go Haywire on cable,
and I'll sit there and say, you know, there's a
lot of other bigger stories happening that are much more consequential,
(42:15):
and yet we're obsessing over a vote. And I don't
want to be dismissive of the Epstein story. I'm not
dismissive of it. I'm not dismissive of what happened to
the victims. I think they deserve their say. But because
of the way the incentive structure works in media. There
was this obsession over covering it, and it was across
the board. It didn't matter whether it was on sort
(42:36):
of the legacy cable channels or on this and you're
sitting there going, you know, these tariffs are a much
bigger story. What's happening with the Venezuela, whether or not
the president has authority to bomb a boat in Venezuela,
whether or not you know, there are much more consequential stories,
but they're not as entertaining as Epstein, like, how do
you how do you fight that? I've got the luxury
(42:57):
where I don't have to have a boss these days,
but I, if I look, I remember those days where
all right, I want to do this and if I
want to do this story, I got to sort of
do this story so that I can do this story.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Look, I totally hear you. And that's the challenge in
the newsroom every day.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
And I and I think, to a certain extent, you know,
it's the challenge for all of us of what is important,
right because there is a curators.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I look at it this way, in some ways we're
all the same, and that we're all trying to curate
what we think people should be focusing on Yeah, and
you know, and and now there's a lot of curators
out there. We used to have three. As you point out,
it was Walter, it was mister Brinkley, right, and it
was whatever combination of unknown people. ABC would come up with,
(43:48):
well said right, well, yeah till Jennings really right. NBC
and ABC had had some NBC and CBS had real stability,
ABC less. So because they were always the number three, right,
they were always try to catch Walter or mister Brinkley.
I always call him mister Brinkley. I used his desk
at NBC, so I have a very fond I Brinkley
(44:09):
at Russer type of mindset there. But but it is
a Now there's a thousand of US curators or more.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
Look, I think it goes back to all news is biased, right,
because it's done by humans, and it's also.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
You know what I like to do. I checked my
pulse and people ask me about bias, and I'm like,
you know, we're all born with original bias.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
You just talked about you had two parents. Not everybody's
born to two parents. Not everybody's born right, like you know,
not everybody's born in a situation that can survive, a
challenge that's in health or whatever, and it shapes you.
I would call that a bias right the fact.
Speaker 3 (44:54):
Look, I was always told bias isn't having an opinion,
it's excluding opinions. That's how That's how I was taught,
and I keep that in mind actually sort of as
a north star. And look, bias isn't so much how
you cover the news, it's what you cover. Is you
just pointed out because of all your cover is Epstein,
(45:14):
There's a lot of other stories out there that have.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
Different you've made a decision not to cover, right.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
So.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean I think it is. It's huge in
terms of what is decided to be covered. What I
think I try to think about, and you know, I
grew up in Missouri. I come from you know, middle class,
upper middle class family in the city or Saint Louis.
(45:46):
Saint Louis, but I spent a lot of time outside
of Saint Louis and I and I kind of try
to go back, and I spent a lot of time
in local news and small markets, and I spend a
lot of time you know, in Colorado in small markets.
So I I think that I tend to go back
to when people are drinking with their buddies on Saturday afternoon,
(46:06):
when they're watching college football, when they're playing golf.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
What are people talking about? How is it?
Speaker 3 (46:11):
How are their lives being changed and affected? And in
trying to cover it through that prism, you know why
this matters.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
You came up through the business, through local markets.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I did.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
Most people younger than you have not. I know, it's terrible,
I and I didn't. I came in a different way.
I was. I worked on a trade publication about campaign politics.
I remember there was a moment in the house.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Well I'm going to give you one quick thing, But
you were out in the field. Sure know what it's
like to hustle the stories, not in Washington, not you
know what it's like to be on the trail.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
But the reason I bring up local is that I
really believe the loss of local is why they don't
trust us as much as they usual. Because local was
our character reference for the national right. People knew who
the local journalists were. People's families knew, oh, yeah, my
son goes to school with his daughter or whatever it is, right,
(47:10):
They knew they were members of the community, and that
created a level of trust locally that could never be
matched nationally because the national didn't live there, right, the
local lived there. And I also view that local journalism
is different from national journalism in that on the local level,
you're there to help people live their lives. Ninety percent
(47:31):
of the stories local news does is to help people
live navigate their life in that community. National news is different, right,
it's about telling you what you need to know in civics,
like what you need to know about the country as
a whole, which of course in and of itself, is
more divisive. Local news much less divisive. But I think
the loss of local news, as I joke, a man
(47:53):
named Craig came along and said, you know, classified ads
ought to be free. YadA, YadA, YadA. We destroyed the
entire local news ecosystem, right. We didn't fully appreciate how
much that revenue stream kept so many local publications together.
And yet I look at our media problem today and
I think the loss of local is what is the biggest.
(48:14):
It's sort of like a house can stand up, but
there's always one pillar that it is keeping the whole
thing up together. And it turned out local news was
that pillar, and when we wiped it out, it collapsed
the entire information ecosystem as far as I'm concerned, which,
given your experience coming through local, how would you revitalize it? O.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Look, I got taught in one of the best parts
of writing Born Lucky is having been able to say
really nice things about people who helped me, who understood
that I was a weird kid and socially awkward and
therefore was a target and protected me or took a
chance on me in one way or another. So we
use the names of all the really nice people, And
(48:57):
I didn't use the names of anybody who was mean
to me because it wasn't about settling scores, and I
thought that was important.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Some people would have done it the exact opposite way.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
Well, I am my father's son, but a guy named
Brad Remington, who is my first news director in Saint Louis, Missouri,
when I was an intern at KTBI and then hired
me as an anchor at KTVR and Denver.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Content drives viewership.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
If you put out good content, they will come because
people are the viewer, and people are smart. They are
extraordinarily interested in their own city, town, state, country, and
that if you fill that void with good, meaningful news
(49:42):
and information, people will respond to it. And I think
that that is the lesson that good journalism is rewarded
because it's something that people crave and always have.
Speaker 2 (49:53):
People always want to.
Speaker 3 (49:54):
Know what the news is, and I so, yes, it's
become commoditized. The flip side of that is, I think
that if you if you offer something special, if you
if you really offer people compelling, must read, must know information.
I remember there was research done in the nineteen nineties
(50:15):
about why people watch local news.
Speaker 2 (50:17):
The number one reason was the weather.
Speaker 3 (50:18):
The number two reason was so they didn't sound stupid
at the water cooler. So if you can provide them
that information and that context, well.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
That's a thing that's always a reminder that what we
really are as educators, we just never call ourselves that.
I like that because ultimately we're helping. We're giving people
information they didn't know. Hopefully, if we're a good teacher,
we're putting it in context. If we're a great teacher,
we're explaining you know, the origin of it and all
(50:48):
those things. But ultimately we're educators and are you are
we good at Are you a good educator? Are you
a bad educator, but you're educating no matter what you're
doing when you're in the news and information business. Hey, Leland,
I have to tell you it's good to get to
know you because reading the book, I find it, I
find it weirdly unfair in a situation like this. Suddenly
(51:08):
I feel like I know a lot about you right
in this situation, and it almost feels upside down. I mean,
you've put yourself out here well and so people and
I admire it, but it's you gave up a little privacy.
Speaker 3 (51:25):
Well, if it helps people, and if it helps parents
and family members of kids who are struggling, whatever it was,
to be more supportive, to show up more for those kids,
to know that they're really making a difference, it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (51:41):
Look the number, you know. The simplest way I've described
it is that this is a reminder that parenting is.
Speaker 3 (51:46):
Everything well, and I hope that there's enough parents who
gained something from it that it makes it so that
there's some lives that have been changed, and then it'll
be worth it. So, I mean, you know, Born Lucky
is my story. I always say, you know, it is
my book. It's about me, but it's not for me.
(52:08):
It's for parents and grandparents and aunts and uncles who
who have a kid, and what parent doesn't want to help.
Speaker 1 (52:14):
Their kid one that's a reminder what we all have
in common. Hey, Leland, congratulations, Thanks Chuck,
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