January 2, 2026 • 49 mins
Nuclear engineer & former Miss America, Grace Vanderhei joins Chuck Todd to break down the realities of nuclear energy—what’s safer than most people think, what genuinely needs fixing, and why public perception has lagged so far behind the science. From how she got into nuclear engineering to how disasters like Fukushima reshaped the industry’s momentum, Grace explains why rare accidents dominate the narrative, even as nuclear power remains one of the safest jobs in the country. The conversation explores America’s aging nuclear infrastructure, the challenges of upgrading decades-old plants, and why rising grid demand from AI is pushing utilities to restart and refurbish reactors instead of building new ones. Chuck and Grace also dig into the promise and limits of small modular reactors, the unresolved problem of nuclear waste storage, and how pop culture—from Homer Simpson to Hollywood—has warped the way we think about nuclear energy, all while pointing listeners to where they can follow Grace’s work and research.
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Timeline:
(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)
00:00 Chuck Todd’s introduction
00:45 Why the ToddCast decided to do the “New Voices” series
01:45 Grace Vanderhei is a former Miss America, now promoting nuclear energy
02:30 Nuclear energy is generally safe, but when it’s not safe it’s catastrophic
03:30 Environmentalists are split on nuclear power
04:45 Demand for power is way up, nuclear power will be needed to meet it
8:15 Grace Vanderhei joins the Chuck ToddCast
9:30 How Grace got into nuclear engineering
13:00 Advances in the tools engineers use
14:30 Fukushima disaster set back momentum in nuclear industry
15:45 Every nuclear facility stores emergency backup parts close by
17:15 Disasters are rare, but capture the public perception of nuclear
18:45 Nuclear tends to be more associated with weapons than energy
20:45 How big of a concern is America’s aging nuclear infrastructure?
23:15 Difficulties with updating decades old nuclear pants?
24:45 Grid demand from AI has led to restarting old nuclear plants
25:30 Refurbishing vs. building new nuclear plants
26:45 The nuclear plant decommissioning process
28:45 Three mile island wasn’t far into decommissioning before refurbishment
30:45 The development of small, modular nuclear reactors
32:15 Small modular reactors are on submarines, not used commercially yet
33:45 Safe, workable SMR’s are still a few years away
35:30 Other countries have surpassed US’s ability to build nuclear power
36:15 Which popular misconceptions are easiest to debunk?
37:30 There are only 6 safer jobs than working at a nuclear plant
38:45 Environmental community has always been divided over nuclear
40:15 Challenges of storing nuclear waste
41:15 There aren’t great current options for storing commercial nuclear waste
43:45 Is Homer Simpson good or bad for perception of nuclear energy?
45:15 Where you can find Grace’s work
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you've got a growing family. Hello thereon Happy twenty twenty six.
This is my first episode of Calendar Year twenty twenty six.
(01:51):
It's a bit of a there's a I've been you know.
One of the beauties of being a media entrepreneur these
days is you can and do these little derivatives of
your media company. You can just do it on your own. Well.
One of the efforts I've made for my YouTube channel,
and please, if you didn't know I had a YouTube channel,
(02:13):
please go over there, like and subscribe. We'd love to
have you. For those of you that want to have
a watch, see this ugly mug on your screens. You
get to do that via the YouTube channel. The whole
podcast is always done also as a video podcast, but
I have a separate YouTube series called New Voices, and
we run to every month and it's always one from
(02:36):
sort of stage left, one from stage right, or something
from sort of stage X, meaning it's not easily a
partisan issue, but it's an expert and that's sort of
where this one fits. And we've dropped a few of
these interviews on this audio feed on the audio side
of things, but this has mostly been on the YouTube
side of things, and I've just a great series of guests.
(02:57):
I really encourage you to go check it out because
it is really more of an exercise of getting to
know who these folks are. We know that the influencer
world is where more this is going, so you should
get to know who these people are, what makes them tick,
(03:17):
how do they become interested, And that's kind of where
I want to go. Well, this interview, the one we're
featuring today, is an interview with a woman named Grace
vander High. She is a Miss America back in twenty
twenty three, but she's also a nuclear engineer and works
in the as a nuclear engineer and we spend a
(03:39):
lion's share of our time. I mean, yes, she's out
there trying to promote that, Hey, nuclear energy is clean energy,
it is the future. I am somebody who accepts that premise.
I think that you know, if you're looking for cleaner
energy that and I know there's a lot of fear
(04:00):
with nuclear I know, and we've it is funny how
nuclear energy is just it is. It is super safe.
But when it's not safe, it's catastrophic. Right, And if
you're of a certain age, I can just say the
words three Mile Island and you will know something. Or
I say Chernobyle or I say Fukushima. Right, And these
(04:23):
are three sort of big nuclear reactor catastrophes that happened
in my lifetime, and they all sort of set back
the progress of embracing more nuclear energy. Now, of course,
there's a lot more nuclear energy powering our grid then
you may realize even today, and it is it is
(04:45):
still likely the quickest way we can get to a
cleaner climate, and for all of those goals. It's been
fascinating to me to watch the environmental community on this issue.
In particular, there's a divide in the environmental community on this, right,
there are some that are very much sort of more
(05:09):
focused on clean energy in the climate space that embraces nuclear.
There are those in the environmental space who sort of
maybe grew up in the no Nukes era of the
seventies and eighties that views all nuclear as bad, whether
for weapons or energy, or that it's just too uncertain
to unsafe. What are you going to do with peclear waste?
(05:29):
And obviously nuclear waste is the big challenge, right, that's
still the challenge because of NIMBI. Nobody wants nuclear waste
buried in their backyard. Perhaps we'll figure out how to
put nuclear waste on the moon, So I don't know, right,
but that certainly, or we will minimize the waste and
we can create even more clean fusion. Well, I found
(05:50):
this interview to be very informative on sort of the
future of nuclear energy, the idea of these small nuclear
reactors powering some of these data set which has been
floated out there. I know Bill Gates is an investor
in some of these things, but I do believe that
energy in general, and this is why I felt like
this was an important interview to share with you guys here.
(06:12):
I think we all got to get smarter about the
energy issue. I think the demands for power are going
to continue to be an issue in real life and
in our political and in the political world. There's no
doubt that demand for power is up. And you know,
there's just so much power we have out there, and
(06:35):
we're going to see electric bills go up. This is
going to be a huge issue. It is going to
get weaponized against AI companies, against big tech and these
data centers. Some of it is legitimate criticism and some
of it is over hyph criticism, and you've got to
separate the fact from the fiction on this. But there's
certainly we know, Look, I live in the state of
Virginia and we're already seeing the real impact of the
(06:58):
increased demand and that the data centers are grabbing from
energy and there's no new jobs that could exchange in that.
So is nuclear Are these many nuclear reactors going to
be the answer to minimizing the impact financially on everyday
Americans when it comes to our increased demand for power. So,
just in general, I think it's a you know, if
(07:23):
you're like me and you're curious, but you don't feel
like you know enough about the nuclear industry. I think
you'll enjoy this conversation. This is not paid for by
the nuclear industry. This is not you know, I think
this is one of those where I just simply if
you're skeptical of nukes, I understand why you are. I
think it's I simply would say, just take a listen
(07:45):
to this conversation, and you know, keep learning about the
industry in general, keep learning about, you know, the the
pros and cons of this. But I am somebody who
believes that if we want to get if we want
to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels, the only realistic
way to do it is to embrace nuclear all right.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So with that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
My conversation with a former Miss America and nuclear engineer
Grace vander High, and joining me now for our new
Voices series. I want to introduce you to Grace vander High.
She twenty three Miss America title holder. She is also
a nuclear engineer. She graduated from the University of Wisconsin Madison.
(08:35):
With that, she is spent time trying to promote nuclear
energy both to the left and the right, and in
many ways this is look. I have a strong opinion
on nuclear energy. I am also one of those who
thinks it is the answer to clean energy going forward.
It is the logical place we are going to head.
(08:56):
The question is how quickly can we get there, how
safely can we get there? And how hard is it
going to be to get folks to buy in? But
that's where we begin, Grace, it's nice to meet you.
Welcome to our new Voices series.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Thanks so much, Chuck, and all really great questions. I'm
super stoked to be chatting about all things nuclear and
everything else. You know, I'm an open book.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Well, let's start with what got you into nuclear engineering?
You know, it's like, yeah, you're a freshman in college,
you're a senior in high school, and did you know
then I'm going to major I'm going to be a
nuclear engineer? Or is was it sooner than that? Later
than that walk me through? Walk me through? Or interest
in it?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, it's a fun story. So when I was sixteen
years old, I was in like my junior year, senior
year of high school. I had no idea what I
wanted to do with my life, as most sixteen year
olds don't. And I'll never forget I got into engineering
because I liked math and science. But if you know engineering,
there are dozens of different types of engineering to major.
And I ended up going going through and I learned
(10:01):
about nuclear engineering through touring Texas A and M. And
the only reason I thought it was cool is just
because it sounds cool. I didn't know anything about nuclear science.
I didn't even know nuclear energy was really like a
I knew it was a thing, but I'm like, this
isn't like a thing in the United States, right, And
I remember reading it and just thinking, man, this is
(10:22):
going to be really like that's such a cool sounding career.
And the other option was aerospace engineering. And I ended
up going back home and talking with my dad, who
was a civil engineer throughout his entire career, and it's like, okay, Dad,
I'm thinking either nuclear or aerospace engineering. You know, what
are your thoughts? And he looks at me. This is
in twenty nineteen, and he goes, Grace, don't go into
(10:43):
nuclear there's no future there. And that's to a sixteen
year old teenage girl, means you're going to go and
do the opposite, right, Oh so you were oh yeah,
watch me exactly. So I initially got into nuclear engineering
out of spite against my father unfortunate. I wish I
had a cool poetic backstory, but I really don't. But
(11:05):
I always say what kept me in the field is
when I actually had the opportunity to learn about it
from experts and people who truly understand it. That first
semester in school, and honestly, that whole first year in school,
when I was pursuing a nuclear engineering major, I learned
that there are, indeed, you know, more than two nuclear
reactors in the United States. There's about ninety four right
(11:26):
now that are operating, creating about twenty percent of America's electricity.
I started working at a fusion lab, so I started
seeing some of the technology that could be a part
of our future energy grid. There on the other side
of nuclear science, you know, I learned nuclear medicine is huge.
We don't talk about nuclear medicine that frequently. The same
(11:47):
person who told me not to go into it. My
dad is a two time cancer survivor. He is alive
because of nuclear medicine helping him with his treatments. So
that's kind of what made me such a passionate advocate.
So I started in it out of spite, but stayed
in it out of passion.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So it's funny you talk about that you had a
father who's an engineer, and that sort of at least
clearly is what sparked your interest in engineering, right, which
is in different phases I had. My grandfather was an emmy.
He was a mechanical engineer, Okay, yeah, and he was
part of building sugarcane plants and then rice plants and
(12:27):
then popcorn plants and things like that, which were and
he always wanted he was trying early on, I was
always pretty interested in math. I went down more of
a music road than a math than that, using the
same sort of math thing. But I remember early on
he introduced me to a slide role, and he was
really intent on making me understand how to use a
slide role. So I'm very curious, A, do you have
(12:50):
a slide role? And B how early in life did
your dad teach you how to use a slide role?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Honestly, no, I don't. It really isn't a big part
of it. I don't know. I definitely like I do
use them every once in a while, but I don't
have my own.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
We don't really have to do anymore. Right, like slide roles,
it's old school, you know, there's all these great like tools.
You know, my grandfather was so disappointed as computers. He
died in the early nineties, but it was just starting
he realized that sort of all of his skill set
was obsolete. Right, It's probably how coders feel today, right, Yeah, Yeah,
AI's got a code. You don't have to learn it anymore,
you know.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Now, it's crazy. Well, I think we still have a
good amount of ways to go before that really could
become like a major worry, But it is definitely something
that is like very valid where we're seeing this transfer
of skills right now. And I actually have a lot
of friends that like just graduated with degrees and they're
now like, Okay, I don't even know if I'm ever
going to have a job anymore because a I is
going to do it. So this evolution of tools and
(13:47):
resources that we have is really interesting. But I'm also
really glad that you came to the conclusion that a
slide rule is antiquated. Will go with that, because I
was like, I don't want to say it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
No, no, no, you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Let's start.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Let's go back to what was your I understand the
mindset you know, it's interesting with nuclear in this country,
you know. I want to say it was about six
months before the Fukushima disaster that Barack Obama became the
first president to green light a brand new nuclear reactor.
(14:23):
Then that we'd had I think not it had been
probably thirty years since we were going to build a
brand new one, and it looked like the public, the
public had sort of turned more positive on nuclear energy,
right we'd you know, Chernobyl was in the past, through
My Island was in the past, and then Fukujima happens,
(14:43):
and it just whatever momentum the nuclear industry had in
sort of winning the argument that this is the answer
to clean energy, more so than solar, more so than
when in renewables that nuclear was the answer. How much
does the shadow of Fukushima sort of still haunt the
(15:03):
nuclear industry in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Well, we definitely implemented a lot of lessons learned, so
like I could tell you just this morning, I was
working on my ERO training, right, so, our emergency response
organization training that all nuclear employees or engineers, everybody's assigned
some type of role for emergency response organization capacities, and
literally in the training this morning, we go through and
(15:27):
re establish, Okay, what are the lessons learned from our
Fukushima experience ultimately and how is that implemented. And one
of the things that we don't necessarily, like not everybody
necessarily knows about the nuclear industry is within a twenty
four hour drive from every single nuclear power plant, there
is a facility that has every single backup pump, every
(15:48):
single backup like mechanism that's available, and that is designed
for these beyond design basis scenarios. Because that's sort of
what Fukushima was, was this beyond design basis scenario. Now
keep in mind you did there were too.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Can you say, beyond design sort of a catastrophic a
one percent chance that happened essentially, is okay?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Correct? Yeah, because that's what like, that's what I was
just about to touch on because I had the opportunity
to go to Fukushima di Echi, and you know, we
talk a lot about the four reactors that I think
we're all familiar with, but there's not enough acknowledgment that
there were two reactors that were just fine despite everything,
you know, So it's interesting in that scenario. But so
(16:28):
we have those lessons learned applied in our emergency response
organization in these facilities that are set up across the country,
all sorts of stuff like that. Now, the one thing
that we're seeing right now and this is like you
talked about how nuclear was really at this like exciting
cusp right before Fukushima. I'm just gonna say we called
it a nuclear renaissance back then. I don't want to
call this one a nuclear renaissance again. I feel like
(16:50):
it's just got bad bad joo doo forwards. But I'm
very very excited because I feel like right now when
I do public advocacy and out to people, I'll never
forget I had this one visit to a middle school,
and I'm so used to talking about Schruernobyl and through
my island and Fukushima and those specifically those true things
(17:11):
right that I almost like automatically watch into talking about
them in some capacity. And I was at this middle
school and I started talking about Fukushima, and I'll never
forget it because these twelve year olds are.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Like what is she saying? So honestly, Like, from a
public perception standpoint, I think there is such a unique
opportunity right now with young people just because like we
have access to information and we're not afraid to look
things up on the internet. Yet we also have this
natural apprehension of what we read on the internet, just
because you don't trust everything, right, So people are always
(17:46):
checking their sources and doing their research to make sure
that they're getting at least somewhat valuable information, right. And
I think that's what's like really causing the young generation
to be so much more positive and accepting of nuclear
energy in comparison to previous generations. It's because the fear
monitoring doesn't work because as soon as they ask one question,
all of a sudden they're seeing online and through all
(18:06):
these other different resources of learning that oh, this isn't
something that should have this high level of fear that's
been depicted for so long. Yeah, I feel like it
went on a tangent there, No, you didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And I think you know, the part of the problem
with I think nuclear is in this space where if
you can't prove that it's one hundred percent safe, then
don't do it. Right, there's this fear of the one
percent with nuclear that is different than any other energy source,
and perhaps being connected to weapons doesn't help, right, doesn't
(18:39):
help your Like, just look at it from a PR standpoint,
nuclear energy, you know, being associated with weapons bad, being
associated with clean environment good with most people. The first
thing when you hear nuclear, I think, my guess is
they're more likely to say weapons than energy. And until
you flip, until that script gets flipped completely where it's
energy weapons, you know, it's still constantly I think going
(19:03):
to be a PR struggle to make the case for
it right because of the strong nimbism that's out there.
I mean, to this day, it's not safe to be
near Turnobyl, right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh you can. Actually it was a tourist attraction. The
only reason you can't go, well, the only reason you
can't go to it right now is because Russia invaded
Ukraine and it's an active war area. So but otherwise,
like Chernobyl, obviously there are certain zones you can't go in,
but it is actually becoming like relatively re established.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You drink a glass of water that you knew came
through Chernobyl.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Through Chernobyl a very different scenario. I guess it depends
on what what the water is. I actually at Fukushima,
I did ask if I could. The only reason they
they said no, not from a radiation standpoint, but because
it's like drinking just straight up lake water or river
water and you just want to have some filtration normally,
(19:58):
so there usually is a real good amount of diligence done.
I'm not an expert on the current status of Chernobyl,
but like I said, I think that it is something that,
like I said, it was it was a tourist attraction
for quite a while that people would literally go on
tours and people work those tour guides.
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What is the bigger you know, I've always thought that
the bigger concern I have about nuclear is just how
old our nuclear facilities are. And you know, I've got
a friend of mine from high school as a nuclear engineer,
and he works in a works works in a space
(22:23):
that he can't tell me everything, So I'll just leave
it at that. But it's like he is a nuclear
engineer in that space and the thing that keeps him
up at night is the aging infrastructure. Whether it's nuclear
weapons or nuclear or nuclear reactors. How big a concern
is that for the industry.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, So just to differentiate like reactors versus weaponry, one
thing I like to talk a lot about is the
uranium enrichment. Right, So what we're using uranium for in
a commercial reactor and uranium and a weapon is very different.
So there's a very important isotope of uranium. It's you
two thirty five I like to think of as the
(23:00):
spicy urdium, right, And in a commercial reactor, we can
only use up to five percent of the uranium can
be that spicyer radium. To get a really really bad weapon,
you have to have at least twenty percent. And to actually,
like from the technical standpoint of being able to enrich
to that high level, to have the facilities to have
(23:22):
everything there, it's it's incredibly difficult, right, and that's why
there's so few facilities out there in the world that
can enrich up to weapons grade. So the commercial commercial
reactors from a physics standpoint, cannot do the same thing
that a weapon can, so two totally different physics reactions. Now,
when it comes to the aging infrastructure of existing reactors,
(23:43):
that's I'm really happy you brought this up because a
lot of these reactors we're seeing that are you know
and kind of getting to this old point, are doing
this awesome thing where they're continuing to refurbish and continuing
to upgrade their facilities. So throughout a nuclear power plant's lifetime,
we've seeing power plants increase the amount of electricity they
can generate through power uprates, and most of them when
(24:05):
they were first built, we're only intended to last for
about forty years. Now, we have plants that have been
operating sixty years. We're seeing plants apply for license extensions
out to eighty years. And I'm going to bring up
like the Nuclear Regulatory Commission here because this is where
they play a pretty influential role in ensuring. Hey, if
we're granting you a license extension, it's because this plant
(24:28):
has the appropriate equipment in everything to go along with it, right,
And we've seen stuff that has that initial forty year
lifespan get replaced. That is incredibly challenging.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Hard, is it too? I grew up in Miami, so
Turkey Point was the biggest reactor in South Florida. And
it's still going. It's still important. It's still, frankly, always
something that everybody gets nervous about when a hurricane shows up,
right for obvious reasons down there. But I believe Eve
(25:00):
it got an extension. I'm not. I think what you're
just just talking about, what are the difficulties in a
forty year old let's say a nuclear power plant built
in the seventies, right when operational, say late seventies, early eighties.
You know what's more feasible retrofitting an older reactor or
(25:22):
starting or building a brand new one.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
It's hard to compare the two, just because like your
designs from the sixties and the seventies and the eighties
is totally different than the designs we would be building now. Right.
It builds upon the same physics, but like some of
the mechanisms are just totally different. So we're seeing sort
of this discussion happening right now where a lot of
these reactors are being restarted. Right, So, I'm working on
(25:47):
three Mile Island Unit one, which is not the unit
that had the partial meltdown in nineteen seventy nine that
I think everybody kind of like automatically goes when they
hear through Mile Island, Right, this is the unit.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That is that where you're working now is three Mile out.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's one of the sites I work on. So I'm
technically corporate, so I work on two different units, and
three Mindlineland Unit one is one of them. So I'm
there at the site frequently, but I'm not based out
of there. But okay, that unit kept operating until twenty
nineteen and then it was shut down, and five years
later it was announced that it was going to be restarting,
(26:20):
and we're seeing that happen in a couple of different states.
Michigan is restarting a nuclear reactor and so is Iowa.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Actually, and is this all due to demand? I mean,
is this all due to we have demand issues? We've
got that. You know, we can talk about the data
centers and this idea of floating portable nuclear power plants.
We'll get to that in a minute, but I don't
want to get ahead of ourselves. But it really is
just sort of we have grid demand and we needed
these extra resources. Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Ultimately, ultimately it is demand is the highest thing, and
AI and data centers is really one of the driving
factors because two of those three restarts is being driven
by power purchase agreements with people who plan to build
data centers nearby, right, So that is a really big
driving factor there. And I think ultimately people are also
expressly interested in nuclear because it's clean and because it's reliable.
(27:08):
They don't have to worry about the outside weather, you know,
they know that that power is going to be always on,
always there, and always ready. That's that's like one of
the best parts of having a nuclear power plant. So yeah,
so in that capacity, we're seeing these nuclear reactors get restarted. Right,
So this I think brings up going back to your
original question of like, okay, upgrading and refurbishing versus building
(27:31):
completely new, right, upgrading and refurbishing in scenarios like t
m I Unit one, which is now the Crane Clean
Energy Center there remain right.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Sorry, you're good, Okay, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And that's why I just said, like I was like, okay,
that's Unit one. It's being renamed to Crane, so if
you hear me call it Crane now, no, it's all
the same thing. But you know, with a site like
that that is only slightly into the decommissioning process, there
isn't a ton of work that needs to be done
to bring it back online versus building a completely new plant.
(28:08):
So that's the interesting thing that right now we're kind
of like running out of reactors that are in restartable condition.
Others that shut down in like that twenty twelve and
earlier timeframe likely would be the prime places to look at,
Hey can we just build a whole new one here?
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So it's what's that line, like, is it where it's
no longer feasible to do a restart. And what do
you do with with a reactor that you can't restart
but you really can't do anything else with it, can you?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean you can decommission them. So that's and
I mean that's exactly what's happening with them.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And then what happens when you decommission What does that mean?
Walk me?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Okay, So decommissioning is essentially breaking down the plant. You're
selling maybe some parts that are able to be sold
to other facilities to be reused if they're in that
type of condition. It's getting rid of any type of
waste material that could exist, all types of spent nuclear fuel,
which is what most people think of when I say
(29:11):
like waste. Right, spent nuclear fuel is stored in dry
casks and throughout that time, typically they're left on site,
but by the end of the decommissioning process, these sites
are literally just brought back to green grasslands like it's
brought back to just a field. The only thing that
may remain is these spent nuclear fuel casks, these dry casks,
(29:34):
which are just giant concrete cylinders, right, But they can
also get transported to a different site for security's sake,
because you have to have security, like a security.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Force with that, and it will create these super sized animals.
Don't kidding, right right? This is the fuel for every
comic book, the fuel for every comic book. You know,
I was raised by wolves near a decommission nuclear power
plant and I got these amazing powers, right See.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
But you also have Iron Man that makes a minuturized
reactor that powers his super cool suit. So you got
it on both ways. It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So when you know how many reactors are we in
the middle of decommissioning.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
At the moment, decommissioning exactly in the United States, I
wouldn't know that exact number. Yeah, that would that that
would vary. There's three that are getting restarted right now
in ninety four that are currently operating, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
And the three that have been restarting I know through
Mile Alan is one you mentioned one in Michigan. How
long were they in the decommissioned process, Like, is there
a certain past where you get to the process where
you're sort of that's a point of no return.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, they weren't very far into the decommissioning process. So
I mentioned crane was only in it for about five years.
Plisades actually shut down and they had a very unusual
scenarioge the Michigan Michigan. Yeah, okay, thank you for I
gotta make sure I get those. So Palisades had a
little bit of a different scenario where they shut down
(31:06):
and they kind of knew they wanted to restart like
pretty quickly, so they really didn't get super far into
decommissioning at all, and I mean maybe six months if that,
Dwayne Arnold I would say is comparable to the Crane
Clean Energy Center where it was like four or five
years into decommissioning.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Which one's Dwayne Arnold, Where's that?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
That's the Iowa one?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Iowa Okay, yep.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So that one's outside of is it cedar rapids? Cedar rapids? Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And that one they're trying to restart as well.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
That one is being restarted.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That is that is driven by AI data center need
is that one not.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
All three of those? Uh? The dwayn Arnold one is
a power purchase agreement with a hyperscaler of some kind
and saying with the Crane Clean Energy Center. But it's
it's really unique because what I think is kind of cool.
So the Crane Clean Energy Center at least, you know,
I don't know the details, so like just putting that
out there very explicitly, but I think that there is
(32:02):
a really good recognition going on that this power is
not like directly connected to a data center. It still
goes out to the grid. It still is getting accessed
by by residents in the area and everything, which is
going to be really I think influential in deciding what
happens when we have not enough energy to meet energy demands,
(32:24):
because then grid operators can do their job and get
electricity to people's homes and residences, prioritizing over over other facilities.
So it'll be interesting, I think, like to see how
that all plays out in the world around us.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So there's these I think it's Wyoming is going to
try a portable reactor, right, it's just the one funded
by Bill Gates? Am I getting this correctly?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So Wyoming is building a advanced reactor, is what I
would say. I wouldn't call it a portable reactor though, Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Tell me, yeah, it's supposedly smaller, nimble, what currect? I
said portable? Why why am I using the phrase portable.
What is it? You know, why does it get that name,
or at least why why is that description?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, so small modular reactors is like a really big
thing right now, right, I feel like everybody's talking about them,
and basically they're just miniaturized nuclear reactors. Now, like to
put miniaturized into concept is you're still probably going to
be using up about the size of a football field
for like the full facility, maybe a little more, maybe
(33:26):
a little less, depending on the design, because there's like
eighty different SMR designs out there right. Small modular reactors
as SMR, so it's a smaller design and it's meant
to have an easily manufacturable benefit. So I like to
kind of describe, you know, your large light water reactors
that we have operating today and that are getting restarted,
(33:48):
and all of these things are kind of like you're
walking into a house and you're building custom cabinets for
your kitchen, right, Like you are planning out every detail
to make sure everything is perfectly matched. And all of
this versus an SMR is and this is like an
over exaggeration, right, but SMR is kind of like going
to Ikea and you're buying a box of reassembled parts
(34:10):
and you go ahead and you assemble it on the site.
So it's a little bit more of like a standardized
modularized production for small modular reactors, which is going to help.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Bring as successful has these been, like where has this been? Is? Yeah,
I mean where are these popping up?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah? So, first of all, they're already in our nuclear navy,
which I think is good to mention it's a little
bit different, but small modular reactors are in our navy
with our nuclear submarines and our aircraft carriers. Right commercially, though,
they are still brand new in the United States, like
there is no there's no operating small modular reactor here
in the United States, and they're still relatively new worldwide.
(34:46):
They're under construction in Canada, they're they've gotten the green
light in Poland and in a couple of other countries
as well. But it is exciting because like there's versions
of research reactors that produce small amounts of power. Having
like a small nuclear reactor isn't a foreign concept in
any capacity, it's just on the commercial side of things.
(35:08):
It's just the first time it's getting enough movement that
nuclear in the United States is seeing a public acceptance
of advanced reactors for the first time in thirty years.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Well, it feels like a baby step, which probably it
kind of do makes people feel a little bit better
that it feels like, well, it's you know, sort of
the joke small dogs, small accidents, big dogs, big accidents. Right,
you know, maybe the same thing with nuclear reactors. But
let me ask you this, what's the So what's the
time frame from approval to build one to getting it online?
(35:40):
For Yeah, for n Essma.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I I personally my opinion, I don't think we should
be building SMRs like tomorrow because I do still think
they're a good amount of time off from being fully ready.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And that's my person I think this is a technology
that's quite ready for prime time.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
It's not it's not licensed by there's no licensed in
RC design yet. And if you want to build a
reactor tomorrow, your first step is looking at ones that
are licensed by the NRC, right by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
So and right now we've got advanced reactors that are
not small modular reactors that are licensed by the NRC
that have been built. So I talk a lot. I
(36:20):
think it's good to bring up like Vocal three and four,
which is the two most recently constructed units in the
United States. They were first. They pretty much it took
thirty years to get a new unit to come online,
like from the last time a new unit came online
to when these came online. And they're just outside of Augusta, Georgia.
So if you like golf, you know the Master's golf
(36:41):
tournament is right nearby.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Uh, that's the one that Obama approved, Right, that's the
one he green lit, right.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That one that I think that was Okay, Yeah, then
it could have been that one. I think that was
before his time, but I could.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Be it was one near Savannah. Why do I think
there's one?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, there was one in South Carolina as well. But
so so this is a AP one thousand design is
what it's called. And it still is creating, you know,
a thousand megawatts of electricity. It's creating large amounts of energy.
It's a large light water reactor. But here's the thing.
We have the supply chain, we have the workforce, we
(37:16):
have so many lessons learned from those two units being
built that, in my opinion, what we should be doing
here is looking at building any like one type of
nuclear reactor, get it a little bit more standardized, get
better at building them in the United States, because we
haven't done it in so long, and we're kind of
fit like it's it's not in our skill set right now.
(37:37):
Other countries are doing a heck of a lot better
than us, So we've got to kind of rebuild that
skill set using existing technology that doesn't have some slight
question marks around it. And then I'm all ears for
looking at like small modular reactor technology and things like that.
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(39:20):
is you want to try to be an advocate or
a voice for or positive voice for nuclear energy. Besides
what we've talked about, what are the hurdle Let me
do it this way. What are the misconceptions that you
think the average person has about nuclear that you feel
are the easiest to debunk.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Nuclear is dangerous. That's like the number one that is
easiest to debunk. In my opinion, when you look at
all nuclear disasters or negative things that are associated with nuclear,
with commercial nuclear energy generation worldwide, you can only think
of three, I'm guessing, and we've kind of touched on
those a little bit of them. Yeah, when I look
(40:05):
at any other type of energy source, you can find
a lot more deaths. You can find a lot more
of a scarier sort of scenario of death per kill,
a lot that's generated. So in my personal look at nuclear,
I had this similar question. I had this similar sort
of existential crisis when I was a junior in college
and starting to look at jobs and like trying to
(40:27):
figure out, Okay, how good of healthcare do I really need? Right? Like,
am I doomed to get cancer? Like what's this actually
going to look like? And I pulled up like the
OSHA's debts for twenty twenty three, And I'll never forget
because working at a nuclear power plant, in comparison to
every other industry in the United States, there were only
six industries that were safer than working at a nuclear
(40:48):
power plant, and it was things like data analytics and accounting,
so like desk jobs, meaning it's more dangerous to send
your kid to work at the grocery store when they're
sixteen years old than it is to go work at
a nuclear power plant. And I love like now working
in the industry. It's really incredible seeing the level of
(41:10):
safety and integrity that's always encouraged. A questioning attitude is
one thing we talk a lot about where I feel
like in other industries you might have like this culture
of like, well, you know, he's the expert, so like
trust him, right, But it's so strongly encouraged in the
nuclear industry that, like if you are the INTERN and
(41:30):
you think the CEO said something that could maybe lead
to a two percent chance of something happening that we
don't want to see, ask a question like point it out,
bring it up. That is highly highly encouraged amongst the
many other defense in depth that we have in terms
of like our actual designs for the physical status of
(41:52):
the plants. It's a ton of fun. So I think
I personally have seen looked at it. Nuclear to me
is the safest form of energy generation, and I think
it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And it's incredibly clean. I mean you know that, you know,
it's very interesting. The environmental community has always been divided
on this. I got a one of my oldest friends
has been at Sierra Club for a long time, and
it's a it's a debate inside of the air club right
in the clean clean energy advocates basically divide it almost
right down the middle. Uh K on nuclear. I'm sure
(42:25):
you've you've discovered this yourself, and it's a you know,
it feels like it's a it's the divide between those
that believe technology is we'll figure it out and those
that are very skeptical of industry.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Mm hmm. Yeah, Okay, I have to I I could
be wrong on this, so verify me or if you've
heard about this too, because the Sierra Club, I thought
I remember seeing something a while back about like one
of the Sierra Club leaders like apologizing for being so
harsh against nuclear and they kind of walk.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I can't remember if it was a club or LCV,
but yes, I believe it's a lot of them. No,
there's always been this and it's a real debate, and
I think now you do you know it used to
be if you were an advocate of nuclear, you weren't
allowed into the environmental community, right, like type of thing.
Now I don't think there, you know, it is not
that you know, you can be considered pro clean energy
and pro nuclear at the same time. Not everybody loves it,
(43:17):
but I feel like it's a little less of a
I mean, look, the other issue that surrounds nuclear is
the where what to do with the waste? Right, And
we've had you know, before you were born, we've had
debates about Yukam out right, and you know, I could
make a large case and that you know, the middle
(43:37):
of the Nevada desert isn't as bad place to have
this and it won't impact people that live in Las
Vegas or Reno. But good luck convincing people of Nevada
of that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree like that, that's a
politics at the end of the day. But when it
comes to storing spent nuclear fuel, which is that question
of what about the waste one, like I come back
to the statement of it's not a science problem, it's
a policy problem. So deep geological repositories are what people
have talked about and is what was proposed for Yucca Mountain. Essentially,
(44:11):
I also think it's good to talk about the Waste
Isolation Power Plant in New Mexico, which is where the
military stores all of their spent they're all of their
nuclear waste. Right. That is a deep geological repository that
is in existence, operating with the United States. It's just
not usable by the commercial world. It's only for military use. Right.
So this is not like something that is not being done.
(44:33):
It's scientifically possible. It is actively happening. We just don't
have a place for commercial or industry spent nuclear fuel. Now,
then we can look at other things that can actually
be done with the spent nuclear fuel before putting into
a deep geological repository. Reprocessing is a big thing. You
can actually recycle spent nuclear fuel. You can reuse ninety
(44:56):
to ninety five percent a bit. That is actively happening
in France, in China, in Russia like it's it's happening.
So there's plenty, plenty of solutions.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
We just have you hoping that The twenty twenty eight
presidential campaign features multiple candidates who are advocates of expansion
of nuclear power.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think we've already actually seen that across the plast
two administrations. I think it's really kind of an exciting
time because we have relatively bipartisan support for nuclear energy
at the federal level, and.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
We also and there's also a need. I mean, you know,
it's not a it's not a nice to have anymore,
it's a it's a need to have.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, ultimately, ultimately, and I mean, I think right now
one of the things that is really going to start
being prevalent in the United States is we're seeing these
other countries that are so much more aggressively pursuing nuclear
and we're just not, you know, we're we're lagging behind
on this. And I think that's going to really start
being competitive. And you know, because Americans we like to
(45:57):
try to be the best at ever win, right That's
just kind of how role. But I think that, uh,
it's going to be really interesting in the next presidential
election because I know that energy is going to be
a huge point of conversation. You know, it already kind
of is at this point, but I think that that's
going to be one of the primary items at this point.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Well, and I'll be curious to see I think, you know,
it becomes you know, it's always sort of when you
when you go against type, if you're a D or
an R and you go against type, whatever that is, right.
Donald Trump went against type when he came out being
a big advocate of social security and Medicare and he
wasn't going to touch it and that that quote unquote
went against type and it and it helped win over
some swing voters that maybe weren't thinking about him. If
(46:36):
a demo major Democratic candidate becomes the pro nuclear energy candidate,
you know, in a primary, right, that becomes goes against type,
and I think it gives there's an opportunity for said
candidate to distinguish themselves if they become become that real advocate.
We'll see, as you say, there's certainly more acceptance that
it's part of the solution. The question is who's going
(46:57):
to embrace it and say no, no, no, no, we're going to
lean into this in a way that we haven't leaned
into it in a long time.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah. Absolutely, I don't go ahead.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, let me get you out of here on this. Yeah,
Homer Simpson, good or bad for nuclear for the for
the for nuclear for the for the perception of nuclear energy.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Okay, bad for the perception, but good for the reason
that it gets conversations going, because you know what, if
you ask me about Homer Simpsons, great, let's talk about it,
and let's talk about all the other awesome things that
nuclear has. So you know, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
We're a product, right, We're all We're all a product
of our own perception. And Matt Grinney, right, he's a
little bit older than I am, but you know that
means you know, his coming of age moment as an
adult was three mile or three mile Island, right, you know,
so it is one of those where your personal experiences
can have a huge impact. And as you said with Fukajima,
if you don't know it, then it doesn't bother. It
(47:52):
isn't going to be the immediate You might not view
something negatively before positively, and that that's probably how the
Simpsons became such a Yeah, is it? Are the Simpsons that?
Do Folks in the nuclear industry hate Matt Greenig for this?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
No? Now, I mean, like I think some people are
like really angsty about it, but I mean I'm kind
of at the point where I'm like, it really does
start conversations, and you know what, his reactor is still running.
So like, if anything that means something, you know, there
you go. So it's something that I think is fine.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Well, it was great to get to know you. Are
you are. Look, you're working in the industry. Are you
doing your own social media, doing your own advocacy outside?
If so, tell me where people can find more information.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, absolutely so. I'm on most social media platforms. Instagram
and LinkedIn are probably my two biggest ones. My Instagram
handle is at Grace dot stanky. It's still my maiden
name and I'm trying to get it switched over, but
if you look up Grace vander High it should still
show up. And then on LinkedIn, I am Grace vander
High there, so feel free to follow, and I post
(49:00):
sorts of fun nuclear content and pictures of my dog
as well, so be warned.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
And you're I assume you're contractually obligated to be a
Packer fan if you grew up in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Oh my god, yeah, I gladly, yes, always.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Well, we're taping on a day that has been a
troubling twenty four hours for our beloved Packers. Yes, too
many injuries, but hey, hope springs eternal, so hopefully by
the time people start to see this, the packers of
our division champs. They've put the Bears in their proper place.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
And uh oh yeah we can go from there.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Hey, Grace, it was great to get to know you.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Awesome, Thanks so much, Jock appreciated.
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(01:51):
It's a bit of a there's a I've been you know.
One of the beauties of being a media entrepreneur these
days is you can and do these little derivatives of
your media company. You can just do it on your own. Well.
One of the efforts I've made for my YouTube channel,
and please, if you didn't know I had a YouTube channel,
(02:13):
please go over there, like and subscribe. We'd love to
have you. For those of you that want to have
a watch, see this ugly mug on your screens. You
get to do that via the YouTube channel. The whole
podcast is always done also as a video podcast, but
I have a separate YouTube series called New Voices, and
we run to every month and it's always one from
(02:36):
sort of stage left, one from stage right, or something
from sort of stage X, meaning it's not easily a
partisan issue, but it's an expert and that's sort of
where this one fits. And we've dropped a few of
these interviews on this audio feed on the audio side
of things, but this has mostly been on the YouTube
side of things, and I've just a great series of guests.
(02:57):
I really encourage you to go check it out because
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featuring today, is an interview with a woman named Grace
vander High. She is a Miss America back in twenty
twenty three, but she's also a nuclear engineer and works
in the as a nuclear engineer and we spend a
(03:39):
lion's share of our time. I mean, yes, she's out
there trying to promote that, Hey, nuclear energy is clean energy,
it is the future. I am somebody who accepts that premise.
I think that you know, if you're looking for cleaner
energy that and I know there's a lot of fear
(04:00):
with nuclear I know, and we've it is funny how
nuclear energy is just it is. It is super safe.
But when it's not safe, it's catastrophic. Right, And if
you're of a certain age, I can just say the
words three Mile Island and you will know something. Or
I say Chernobyle or I say Fukushima. Right, And these
(04:23):
are three sort of big nuclear reactor catastrophes that happened
in my lifetime, and they all sort of set back
the progress of embracing more nuclear energy. Now, of course,
there's a lot more nuclear energy powering our grid then
you may realize even today, and it is it is
(04:45):
still likely the quickest way we can get to a
cleaner climate, and for all of those goals. It's been
fascinating to me to watch the environmental community on this issue.
In particular, there's a divide in the environmental community on this, right,
there are some that are very much sort of more
(05:09):
focused on clean energy in the climate space that embraces nuclear.
There are those in the environmental space who sort of
maybe grew up in the no Nukes era of the
seventies and eighties that views all nuclear as bad, whether
for weapons or energy, or that it's just too uncertain
to unsafe. What are you going to do with peclear waste?
(05:29):
And obviously nuclear waste is the big challenge, right, that's
still the challenge because of NIMBI. Nobody wants nuclear waste
buried in their backyard. Perhaps we'll figure out how to
put nuclear waste on the moon, So I don't know, right,
but that certainly, or we will minimize the waste and
we can create even more clean fusion. Well, I found
(05:50):
this interview to be very informative on sort of the
future of nuclear energy, the idea of these small nuclear
reactors powering some of these data set which has been
floated out there. I know Bill Gates is an investor
in some of these things, but I do believe that
energy in general, and this is why I felt like
this was an important interview to share with you guys here.
(06:12):
I think we all got to get smarter about the
energy issue. I think the demands for power are going
to continue to be an issue in real life and
in our political and in the political world. There's no
doubt that demand for power is up. And you know,
there's just so much power we have out there, and
(06:35):
we're going to see electric bills go up. This is
going to be a huge issue. It is going to
get weaponized against AI companies, against big tech and these
data centers. Some of it is legitimate criticism and some
of it is over hyph criticism, and you've got to
separate the fact from the fiction on this. But there's
certainly we know, Look, I live in the state of
Virginia and we're already seeing the real impact of the
(06:58):
increased demand and that the data centers are grabbing from
energy and there's no new jobs that could exchange in that.
So is nuclear Are these many nuclear reactors going to
be the answer to minimizing the impact financially on everyday
Americans when it comes to our increased demand for power. So,
just in general, I think it's a you know, if
(07:23):
you're like me and you're curious, but you don't feel
like you know enough about the nuclear industry. I think
you'll enjoy this conversation. This is not paid for by
the nuclear industry. This is not you know, I think
this is one of those where I just simply if
you're skeptical of nukes, I understand why you are. I
think it's I simply would say, just take a listen
(07:45):
to this conversation, and you know, keep learning about the
industry in general, keep learning about, you know, the the
pros and cons of this. But I am somebody who
believes that if we want to get if we want
to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels, the only realistic
way to do it is to embrace nuclear all right.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So with that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
My conversation with a former Miss America and nuclear engineer
Grace vander High, and joining me now for our new
Voices series. I want to introduce you to Grace vander High.
She twenty three Miss America title holder. She is also
a nuclear engineer. She graduated from the University of Wisconsin Madison.
(08:35):
With that, she is spent time trying to promote nuclear
energy both to the left and the right, and in
many ways this is look. I have a strong opinion
on nuclear energy. I am also one of those who
thinks it is the answer to clean energy going forward.
It is the logical place we are going to head.
(08:56):
The question is how quickly can we get there, how
safely can we get there? And how hard is it
going to be to get folks to buy in? But
that's where we begin, Grace, it's nice to meet you.
Welcome to our new Voices series.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Thanks so much, Chuck, and all really great questions. I'm
super stoked to be chatting about all things nuclear and
everything else. You know, I'm an open book.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Well, let's start with what got you into nuclear engineering?
You know, it's like, yeah, you're a freshman in college,
you're a senior in high school, and did you know
then I'm going to major I'm going to be a
nuclear engineer? Or is was it sooner than that? Later
than that walk me through? Walk me through? Or interest
in it?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, it's a fun story. So when I was sixteen
years old, I was in like my junior year, senior
year of high school. I had no idea what I
wanted to do with my life, as most sixteen year
olds don't. And I'll never forget I got into engineering
because I liked math and science. But if you know engineering,
there are dozens of different types of engineering to major.
And I ended up going going through and I learned
(10:01):
about nuclear engineering through touring Texas A and M. And
the only reason I thought it was cool is just
because it sounds cool. I didn't know anything about nuclear science.
I didn't even know nuclear energy was really like a
I knew it was a thing, but I'm like, this
isn't like a thing in the United States, right, And
I remember reading it and just thinking, man, this is
(10:22):
going to be really like that's such a cool sounding career.
And the other option was aerospace engineering. And I ended
up going back home and talking with my dad, who
was a civil engineer throughout his entire career, and it's like, okay, Dad,
I'm thinking either nuclear or aerospace engineering. You know, what
are your thoughts? And he looks at me. This is
in twenty nineteen, and he goes, Grace, don't go into
(10:43):
nuclear there's no future there. And that's to a sixteen
year old teenage girl, means you're going to go and
do the opposite, right, Oh so you were oh yeah,
watch me exactly. So I initially got into nuclear engineering
out of spite against my father unfortunate. I wish I
had a cool poetic backstory, but I really don't. But
(11:05):
I always say what kept me in the field is
when I actually had the opportunity to learn about it
from experts and people who truly understand it. That first
semester in school, and honestly, that whole first year in school,
when I was pursuing a nuclear engineering major, I learned
that there are, indeed, you know, more than two nuclear
reactors in the United States. There's about ninety four right
(11:26):
now that are operating, creating about twenty percent of America's electricity.
I started working at a fusion lab, so I started
seeing some of the technology that could be a part
of our future energy grid. There on the other side
of nuclear science, you know, I learned nuclear medicine is huge.
We don't talk about nuclear medicine that frequently. The same
(11:47):
person who told me not to go into it. My
dad is a two time cancer survivor. He is alive
because of nuclear medicine helping him with his treatments. So
that's kind of what made me such a passionate advocate.
So I started in it out of spite, but stayed
in it out of passion.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
So it's funny you talk about that you had a
father who's an engineer, and that sort of at least
clearly is what sparked your interest in engineering, right, which
is in different phases I had. My grandfather was an emmy.
He was a mechanical engineer, Okay, yeah, and he was
part of building sugarcane plants and then rice plants and
(12:27):
then popcorn plants and things like that, which were and
he always wanted he was trying early on, I was
always pretty interested in math. I went down more of
a music road than a math than that, using the
same sort of math thing. But I remember early on
he introduced me to a slide role, and he was
really intent on making me understand how to use a
slide role. So I'm very curious, A, do you have
(12:50):
a slide role? And B how early in life did
your dad teach you how to use a slide role?
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Honestly, no, I don't. It really isn't a big part
of it. I don't know. I definitely like I do
use them every once in a while, but I don't
have my own.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
We don't really have to do anymore. Right, like slide roles,
it's old school, you know, there's all these great like tools.
You know, my grandfather was so disappointed as computers. He
died in the early nineties, but it was just starting
he realized that sort of all of his skill set
was obsolete. Right, It's probably how coders feel today, right, Yeah, Yeah,
AI's got a code. You don't have to learn it anymore,
you know.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Now, it's crazy. Well, I think we still have a
good amount of ways to go before that really could
become like a major worry, But it is definitely something
that is like very valid where we're seeing this transfer
of skills right now. And I actually have a lot
of friends that like just graduated with degrees and they're
now like, Okay, I don't even know if I'm ever
going to have a job anymore because a I is
going to do it. So this evolution of tools and
(13:47):
resources that we have is really interesting. But I'm also
really glad that you came to the conclusion that a
slide rule is antiquated. Will go with that, because I
was like, I don't want to say it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
No, no, no, you don't have to.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Let's start.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Let's go back to what was your I understand the
mindset you know, it's interesting with nuclear in this country,
you know. I want to say it was about six
months before the Fukushima disaster that Barack Obama became the
first president to green light a brand new nuclear reactor.
(14:23):
Then that we'd had I think not it had been
probably thirty years since we were going to build a
brand new one, and it looked like the public, the
public had sort of turned more positive on nuclear energy,
right we'd you know, Chernobyl was in the past, through
My Island was in the past, and then Fukujima happens,
(14:43):
and it just whatever momentum the nuclear industry had in
sort of winning the argument that this is the answer
to clean energy, more so than solar, more so than
when in renewables that nuclear was the answer. How much
does the shadow of Fukushima sort of still haunt the
(15:03):
nuclear industry in your opinion?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Well, we definitely implemented a lot of lessons learned, so
like I could tell you just this morning, I was
working on my ERO training, right, so, our emergency response
organization training that all nuclear employees or engineers, everybody's assigned
some type of role for emergency response organization capacities, and
literally in the training this morning, we go through and
(15:27):
re establish, Okay, what are the lessons learned from our
Fukushima experience ultimately and how is that implemented. And one
of the things that we don't necessarily, like not everybody
necessarily knows about the nuclear industry is within a twenty
four hour drive from every single nuclear power plant, there
is a facility that has every single backup pump, every
(15:48):
single backup like mechanism that's available, and that is designed
for these beyond design basis scenarios. Because that's sort of
what Fukushima was, was this beyond design basis scenario. Now
keep in mind you did there were too.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Can you say, beyond design sort of a catastrophic a
one percent chance that happened essentially, is okay?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Correct? Yeah, because that's what like, that's what I was
just about to touch on because I had the opportunity
to go to Fukushima di Echi, and you know, we
talk a lot about the four reactors that I think
we're all familiar with, but there's not enough acknowledgment that
there were two reactors that were just fine despite everything,
you know, So it's interesting in that scenario. But so
(16:28):
we have those lessons learned applied in our emergency response
organization in these facilities that are set up across the country,
all sorts of stuff like that. Now, the one thing
that we're seeing right now and this is like you
talked about how nuclear was really at this like exciting
cusp right before Fukushima. I'm just gonna say we called
it a nuclear renaissance back then. I don't want to
call this one a nuclear renaissance again. I feel like
(16:50):
it's just got bad bad joo doo forwards. But I'm
very very excited because I feel like right now when
I do public advocacy and out to people, I'll never
forget I had this one visit to a middle school,
and I'm so used to talking about Schruernobyl and through
my island and Fukushima and those specifically those true things
(17:11):
right that I almost like automatically watch into talking about
them in some capacity. And I was at this middle
school and I started talking about Fukushima, and I'll never
forget it because these twelve year olds are.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Like, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Like what is she saying? So honestly, Like, from a
public perception standpoint, I think there is such a unique
opportunity right now with young people just because like we
have access to information and we're not afraid to look
things up on the internet. Yet we also have this
natural apprehension of what we read on the internet, just
because you don't trust everything, right, So people are always
(17:46):
checking their sources and doing their research to make sure
that they're getting at least somewhat valuable information, right. And
I think that's what's like really causing the young generation
to be so much more positive and accepting of nuclear
energy in comparison to previous generations. It's because the fear
monitoring doesn't work because as soon as they ask one question,
all of a sudden they're seeing online and through all
(18:06):
these other different resources of learning that oh, this isn't
something that should have this high level of fear that's
been depicted for so long. Yeah, I feel like it
went on a tangent there, No, you didn't.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
And I think you know, the part of the problem
with I think nuclear is in this space where if
you can't prove that it's one hundred percent safe, then
don't do it. Right, there's this fear of the one
percent with nuclear that is different than any other energy source,
and perhaps being connected to weapons doesn't help, right, doesn't
(18:39):
help your Like, just look at it from a PR standpoint,
nuclear energy, you know, being associated with weapons bad, being
associated with clean environment good with most people. The first
thing when you hear nuclear, I think, my guess is
they're more likely to say weapons than energy. And until
you flip, until that script gets flipped completely where it's
energy weapons, you know, it's still constantly I think going
(19:03):
to be a PR struggle to make the case for
it right because of the strong nimbism that's out there.
I mean, to this day, it's not safe to be
near Turnobyl, right.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh you can. Actually it was a tourist attraction. The
only reason you can't go, well, the only reason you
can't go to it right now is because Russia invaded
Ukraine and it's an active war area. So but otherwise,
like Chernobyl, obviously there are certain zones you can't go in,
but it is actually becoming like relatively re established.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
You drink a glass of water that you knew came
through Chernobyl.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Through Chernobyl a very different scenario. I guess it depends
on what what the water is. I actually at Fukushima,
I did ask if I could. The only reason they
they said no, not from a radiation standpoint, but because
it's like drinking just straight up lake water or river
water and you just want to have some filtration normally,
(19:58):
so there usually is a real good amount of diligence done.
I'm not an expert on the current status of Chernobyl,
but like I said, I think that it is something that,
like I said, it was it was a tourist attraction
for quite a while that people would literally go on
tours and people work those tour guides.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
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(20:35):
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(20:56):
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(21:18):
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What is the bigger you know, I've always thought that
the bigger concern I have about nuclear is just how
old our nuclear facilities are. And you know, I've got
a friend of mine from high school as a nuclear engineer,
and he works in a works works in a space
(22:23):
that he can't tell me everything, So I'll just leave
it at that. But it's like he is a nuclear
engineer in that space and the thing that keeps him
up at night is the aging infrastructure. Whether it's nuclear
weapons or nuclear or nuclear reactors. How big a concern
is that for the industry.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, So just to differentiate like reactors versus weaponry, one
thing I like to talk a lot about is the
uranium enrichment. Right, So what we're using uranium for in
a commercial reactor and uranium and a weapon is very different.
So there's a very important isotope of uranium. It's you
two thirty five I like to think of as the
(23:00):
spicy urdium, right, And in a commercial reactor, we can
only use up to five percent of the uranium can
be that spicyer radium. To get a really really bad weapon,
you have to have at least twenty percent. And to actually,
like from the technical standpoint of being able to enrich
to that high level, to have the facilities to have
(23:22):
everything there, it's it's incredibly difficult, right, and that's why
there's so few facilities out there in the world that
can enrich up to weapons grade. So the commercial commercial
reactors from a physics standpoint, cannot do the same thing
that a weapon can, so two totally different physics reactions. Now,
when it comes to the aging infrastructure of existing reactors,
(23:43):
that's I'm really happy you brought this up because a
lot of these reactors we're seeing that are you know
and kind of getting to this old point, are doing
this awesome thing where they're continuing to refurbish and continuing
to upgrade their facilities. So throughout a nuclear power plant's lifetime,
we've seeing power plants increase the amount of electricity they
can generate through power uprates, and most of them when
(24:05):
they were first built, we're only intended to last for
about forty years. Now, we have plants that have been
operating sixty years. We're seeing plants apply for license extensions
out to eighty years. And I'm going to bring up
like the Nuclear Regulatory Commission here because this is where
they play a pretty influential role in ensuring. Hey, if
we're granting you a license extension, it's because this plant
(24:28):
has the appropriate equipment in everything to go along with it, right,
And we've seen stuff that has that initial forty year
lifespan get replaced. That is incredibly challenging.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Hard, is it too? I grew up in Miami, so
Turkey Point was the biggest reactor in South Florida. And
it's still going. It's still important. It's still, frankly, always
something that everybody gets nervous about when a hurricane shows up,
right for obvious reasons down there. But I believe Eve
(25:00):
it got an extension. I'm not. I think what you're
just just talking about, what are the difficulties in a
forty year old let's say a nuclear power plant built
in the seventies, right when operational, say late seventies, early eighties.
You know what's more feasible retrofitting an older reactor or
(25:22):
starting or building a brand new one.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
It's hard to compare the two, just because like your
designs from the sixties and the seventies and the eighties
is totally different than the designs we would be building now. Right.
It builds upon the same physics, but like some of
the mechanisms are just totally different. So we're seeing sort
of this discussion happening right now where a lot of
these reactors are being restarted. Right, So, I'm working on
(25:47):
three Mile Island Unit one, which is not the unit
that had the partial meltdown in nineteen seventy nine that
I think everybody kind of like automatically goes when they
hear through Mile Island, Right, this is the unit.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
That is that where you're working now is three Mile out.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's one of the sites I work on. So I'm
technically corporate, so I work on two different units, and
three Mindlineland Unit one is one of them. So I'm
there at the site frequently, but I'm not based out
of there. But okay, that unit kept operating until twenty
nineteen and then it was shut down, and five years
later it was announced that it was going to be restarting,
(26:20):
and we're seeing that happen in a couple of different states.
Michigan is restarting a nuclear reactor and so is Iowa.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Actually, and is this all due to demand? I mean,
is this all due to we have demand issues? We've
got that. You know, we can talk about the data
centers and this idea of floating portable nuclear power plants.
We'll get to that in a minute, but I don't
want to get ahead of ourselves. But it really is
just sort of we have grid demand and we needed
these extra resources. Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Ultimately, ultimately it is demand is the highest thing, and
AI and data centers is really one of the driving
factors because two of those three restarts is being driven
by power purchase agreements with people who plan to build
data centers nearby, right, So that is a really big
driving factor there. And I think ultimately people are also
expressly interested in nuclear because it's clean and because it's reliable.
(27:08):
They don't have to worry about the outside weather, you know,
they know that that power is going to be always on,
always there, and always ready. That's that's like one of
the best parts of having a nuclear power plant. So yeah,
so in that capacity, we're seeing these nuclear reactors get restarted. Right,
So this I think brings up going back to your
original question of like, okay, upgrading and refurbishing versus building
(27:31):
completely new, right, upgrading and refurbishing in scenarios like t
m I Unit one, which is now the Crane Clean
Energy Center there remain right.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Sorry, you're good, Okay, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
And that's why I just said, like I was like, okay,
that's Unit one. It's being renamed to Crane, so if
you hear me call it Crane now, no, it's all
the same thing. But you know, with a site like
that that is only slightly into the decommissioning process, there
isn't a ton of work that needs to be done
to bring it back online versus building a completely new plant.
(28:08):
So that's the interesting thing that right now we're kind
of like running out of reactors that are in restartable condition.
Others that shut down in like that twenty twelve and
earlier timeframe likely would be the prime places to look at,
Hey can we just build a whole new one here?
Speaker 1 (28:25):
So it's what's that line, like, is it where it's
no longer feasible to do a restart. And what do
you do with with a reactor that you can't restart
but you really can't do anything else with it, can you?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean you can decommission them. So that's and
I mean that's exactly what's happening with them.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And then what happens when you decommission What does that mean?
Walk me?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Okay, So decommissioning is essentially breaking down the plant. You're
selling maybe some parts that are able to be sold
to other facilities to be reused if they're in that
type of condition. It's getting rid of any type of
waste material that could exist, all types of spent nuclear fuel,
which is what most people think of when I say
(29:11):
like waste. Right, spent nuclear fuel is stored in dry
casks and throughout that time, typically they're left on site,
but by the end of the decommissioning process, these sites
are literally just brought back to green grasslands like it's
brought back to just a field. The only thing that
may remain is these spent nuclear fuel casks, these dry casks,
(29:34):
which are just giant concrete cylinders, right, But they can
also get transported to a different site for security's sake,
because you have to have security, like a security.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Force with that, and it will create these super sized animals.
Don't kidding, right right? This is the fuel for every
comic book, the fuel for every comic book. You know,
I was raised by wolves near a decommission nuclear power
plant and I got these amazing powers, right See.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
But you also have Iron Man that makes a minuturized
reactor that powers his super cool suit. So you got
it on both ways. It's awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
So when you know how many reactors are we in
the middle of decommissioning.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
At the moment, decommissioning exactly in the United States, I
wouldn't know that exact number. Yeah, that would that that
would vary. There's three that are getting restarted right now
in ninety four that are currently operating, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
And the three that have been restarting I know through
Mile Alan is one you mentioned one in Michigan. How
long were they in the decommissioned process, Like, is there
a certain past where you get to the process where
you're sort of that's a point of no return.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, they weren't very far into the decommissioning process. So
I mentioned crane was only in it for about five years.
Plisades actually shut down and they had a very unusual
scenarioge the Michigan Michigan. Yeah, okay, thank you for I
gotta make sure I get those. So Palisades had a
little bit of a different scenario where they shut down
(31:06):
and they kind of knew they wanted to restart like
pretty quickly, so they really didn't get super far into
decommissioning at all, and I mean maybe six months if that,
Dwayne Arnold I would say is comparable to the Crane
Clean Energy Center where it was like four or five
years into decommissioning.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Which one's Dwayne Arnold, Where's that?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
That's the Iowa one?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Iowa Okay, yep.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
So that one's outside of is it cedar rapids? Cedar rapids? Yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And that one they're trying to restart as well.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
That one is being restarted.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
That is that is driven by AI data center need
is that one not.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
All three of those? Uh? The dwayn Arnold one is
a power purchase agreement with a hyperscaler of some kind
and saying with the Crane Clean Energy Center. But it's
it's really unique because what I think is kind of cool.
So the Crane Clean Energy Center at least, you know,
I don't know the details, so like just putting that
out there very explicitly, but I think that there is
(32:02):
a really good recognition going on that this power is
not like directly connected to a data center. It still
goes out to the grid. It still is getting accessed
by by residents in the area and everything, which is
going to be really I think influential in deciding what
happens when we have not enough energy to meet energy demands,
(32:24):
because then grid operators can do their job and get
electricity to people's homes and residences, prioritizing over over other facilities.
So it'll be interesting, I think, like to see how
that all plays out in the world around us.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
So there's these I think it's Wyoming is going to
try a portable reactor, right, it's just the one funded
by Bill Gates? Am I getting this correctly?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
So Wyoming is building a advanced reactor, is what I
would say. I wouldn't call it a portable reactor though, Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Tell me, yeah, it's supposedly smaller, nimble, what currect? I
said portable? Why why am I using the phrase portable.
What is it? You know, why does it get that name,
or at least why why is that description?
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, so small modular reactors is like a really big
thing right now, right, I feel like everybody's talking about them,
and basically they're just miniaturized nuclear reactors. Now, like to
put miniaturized into concept is you're still probably going to
be using up about the size of a football field
for like the full facility, maybe a little more, maybe
(33:26):
a little less, depending on the design, because there's like
eighty different SMR designs out there right. Small modular reactors
as SMR, so it's a smaller design and it's meant
to have an easily manufacturable benefit. So I like to
kind of describe, you know, your large light water reactors
that we have operating today and that are getting restarted,
(33:48):
and all of these things are kind of like you're
walking into a house and you're building custom cabinets for
your kitchen, right, Like you are planning out every detail
to make sure everything is perfectly matched. And all of
this versus an SMR is and this is like an
over exaggeration, right, but SMR is kind of like going
to Ikea and you're buying a box of reassembled parts
(34:10):
and you go ahead and you assemble it on the site.
So it's a little bit more of like a standardized
modularized production for small modular reactors, which is going to help.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Bring as successful has these been, like where has this been? Is? Yeah,
I mean where are these popping up?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah? So, first of all, they're already in our nuclear navy,
which I think is good to mention it's a little
bit different, but small modular reactors are in our navy
with our nuclear submarines and our aircraft carriers. Right commercially, though,
they are still brand new in the United States, like
there is no there's no operating small modular reactor here
in the United States, and they're still relatively new worldwide.
(34:46):
They're under construction in Canada, they're they've gotten the green
light in Poland and in a couple of other countries
as well. But it is exciting because like there's versions
of research reactors that produce small amounts of power. Having
like a small nuclear reactor isn't a foreign concept in
any capacity, it's just on the commercial side of things.
(35:08):
It's just the first time it's getting enough movement that
nuclear in the United States is seeing a public acceptance
of advanced reactors for the first time in thirty years.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Well, it feels like a baby step, which probably it
kind of do makes people feel a little bit better
that it feels like, well, it's you know, sort of
the joke small dogs, small accidents, big dogs, big accidents. Right,
you know, maybe the same thing with nuclear reactors. But
let me ask you this, what's the So what's the
time frame from approval to build one to getting it online?
(35:40):
For Yeah, for n Essma.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I I personally my opinion, I don't think we should
be building SMRs like tomorrow because I do still think
they're a good amount of time off from being fully ready.
Speaker 1 (35:55):
And that's my person I think this is a technology
that's quite ready for prime time.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
It's not it's not licensed by there's no licensed in
RC design yet. And if you want to build a
reactor tomorrow, your first step is looking at ones that
are licensed by the NRC, right by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
So and right now we've got advanced reactors that are
not small modular reactors that are licensed by the NRC
that have been built. So I talk a lot. I
(36:20):
think it's good to bring up like Vocal three and four,
which is the two most recently constructed units in the
United States. They were first. They pretty much it took
thirty years to get a new unit to come online,
like from the last time a new unit came online
to when these came online. And they're just outside of Augusta, Georgia.
So if you like golf, you know the Master's golf
(36:41):
tournament is right nearby.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Uh, that's the one that Obama approved, Right, that's the
one he green lit, right.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
That one that I think that was Okay, Yeah, then
it could have been that one. I think that was
before his time, but I could.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Be it was one near Savannah. Why do I think
there's one?
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, there was one in South Carolina as well. But
so so this is a AP one thousand design is
what it's called. And it still is creating, you know,
a thousand megawatts of electricity. It's creating large amounts of energy.
It's a large light water reactor. But here's the thing.
We have the supply chain, we have the workforce, we
(37:16):
have so many lessons learned from those two units being
built that, in my opinion, what we should be doing
here is looking at building any like one type of
nuclear reactor, get it a little bit more standardized, get
better at building them in the United States, because we
haven't done it in so long, and we're kind of
fit like it's it's not in our skill set right now.
(37:37):
Other countries are doing a heck of a lot better
than us, So we've got to kind of rebuild that
skill set using existing technology that doesn't have some slight
question marks around it. And then I'm all ears for
looking at like small modular reactor technology and things like that.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
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(39:20):
is you want to try to be an advocate or
a voice for or positive voice for nuclear energy. Besides
what we've talked about, what are the hurdle Let me
do it this way. What are the misconceptions that you
think the average person has about nuclear that you feel
are the easiest to debunk.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Nuclear is dangerous. That's like the number one that is
easiest to debunk. In my opinion, when you look at
all nuclear disasters or negative things that are associated with nuclear,
with commercial nuclear energy generation worldwide, you can only think
of three, I'm guessing, and we've kind of touched on
those a little bit of them. Yeah, when I look
(40:05):
at any other type of energy source, you can find
a lot more deaths. You can find a lot more
of a scarier sort of scenario of death per kill,
a lot that's generated. So in my personal look at nuclear,
I had this similar question. I had this similar sort
of existential crisis when I was a junior in college
and starting to look at jobs and like trying to
(40:27):
figure out, Okay, how good of healthcare do I really need? Right? Like,
am I doomed to get cancer? Like what's this actually
going to look like? And I pulled up like the
OSHA's debts for twenty twenty three, And I'll never forget
because working at a nuclear power plant, in comparison to
every other industry in the United States, there were only
six industries that were safer than working at a nuclear
(40:48):
power plant, and it was things like data analytics and accounting,
so like desk jobs, meaning it's more dangerous to send
your kid to work at the grocery store when they're
sixteen years old than it is to go work at
a nuclear power plant. And I love like now working
in the industry. It's really incredible seeing the level of
(41:10):
safety and integrity that's always encouraged. A questioning attitude is
one thing we talk a lot about where I feel
like in other industries you might have like this culture
of like, well, you know, he's the expert, so like
trust him, right, But it's so strongly encouraged in the
nuclear industry that, like if you are the INTERN and
(41:30):
you think the CEO said something that could maybe lead
to a two percent chance of something happening that we
don't want to see, ask a question like point it out,
bring it up. That is highly highly encouraged amongst the
many other defense in depth that we have in terms
of like our actual designs for the physical status of
(41:52):
the plants. It's a ton of fun. So I think
I personally have seen looked at it. Nuclear to me
is the safest form of energy generation, and I think
it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
And it's incredibly clean. I mean you know that, you know,
it's very interesting. The environmental community has always been divided
on this. I got a one of my oldest friends
has been at Sierra Club for a long time, and
it's a it's a debate inside of the air club right
in the clean clean energy advocates basically divide it almost
right down the middle. Uh K on nuclear. I'm sure
(42:25):
you've you've discovered this yourself, and it's a you know,
it feels like it's a it's the divide between those
that believe technology is we'll figure it out and those
that are very skeptical of industry.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
Mm hmm. Yeah, Okay, I have to I I could
be wrong on this, so verify me or if you've
heard about this too, because the Sierra Club, I thought
I remember seeing something a while back about like one
of the Sierra Club leaders like apologizing for being so
harsh against nuclear and they kind of walk.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
I can't remember if it was a club or LCV,
but yes, I believe it's a lot of them. No,
there's always been this and it's a real debate, and
I think now you do you know it used to
be if you were an advocate of nuclear, you weren't
allowed into the environmental community, right, like type of thing.
Now I don't think there, you know, it is not
that you know, you can be considered pro clean energy
and pro nuclear at the same time. Not everybody loves it,
(43:17):
but I feel like it's a little less of a
I mean, look, the other issue that surrounds nuclear is
the where what to do with the waste? Right, And
we've had you know, before you were born, we've had
debates about Yukam out right, and you know, I could
make a large case and that you know, the middle
(43:37):
of the Nevada desert isn't as bad place to have
this and it won't impact people that live in Las
Vegas or Reno. But good luck convincing people of Nevada
of that.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, I completely agree like that, that's a
politics at the end of the day. But when it
comes to storing spent nuclear fuel, which is that question
of what about the waste one, like I come back
to the statement of it's not a science problem, it's
a policy problem. So deep geological repositories are what people
have talked about and is what was proposed for Yucca Mountain. Essentially,
(44:11):
I also think it's good to talk about the Waste
Isolation Power Plant in New Mexico, which is where the
military stores all of their spent they're all of their
nuclear waste. Right. That is a deep geological repository that
is in existence, operating with the United States. It's just
not usable by the commercial world. It's only for military use. Right.
So this is not like something that is not being done.
(44:33):
It's scientifically possible. It is actively happening. We just don't
have a place for commercial or industry spent nuclear fuel. Now,
then we can look at other things that can actually
be done with the spent nuclear fuel before putting into
a deep geological repository. Reprocessing is a big thing. You
can actually recycle spent nuclear fuel. You can reuse ninety
(44:56):
to ninety five percent a bit. That is actively happening
in France, in China, in Russia like it's it's happening.
So there's plenty, plenty of solutions.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
We just have you hoping that The twenty twenty eight
presidential campaign features multiple candidates who are advocates of expansion
of nuclear power.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
I think we've already actually seen that across the plast
two administrations. I think it's really kind of an exciting
time because we have relatively bipartisan support for nuclear energy
at the federal level, and.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
We also and there's also a need. I mean, you know,
it's not a it's not a nice to have anymore,
it's a it's a need to have.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, ultimately, ultimately, and I mean, I think right now
one of the things that is really going to start
being prevalent in the United States is we're seeing these
other countries that are so much more aggressively pursuing nuclear
and we're just not, you know, we're we're lagging behind
on this. And I think that's going to really start
being competitive. And you know, because Americans we like to
(45:57):
try to be the best at ever win, right That's
just kind of how role. But I think that, uh,
it's going to be really interesting in the next presidential
election because I know that energy is going to be
a huge point of conversation. You know, it already kind
of is at this point, but I think that that's
going to be one of the primary items at this point.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Well, and I'll be curious to see I think, you know,
it becomes you know, it's always sort of when you
when you go against type, if you're a D or
an R and you go against type, whatever that is, right.
Donald Trump went against type when he came out being
a big advocate of social security and Medicare and he
wasn't going to touch it and that that quote unquote
went against type and it and it helped win over
some swing voters that maybe weren't thinking about him. If
(46:36):
a demo major Democratic candidate becomes the pro nuclear energy candidate,
you know, in a primary, right, that becomes goes against type,
and I think it gives there's an opportunity for said
candidate to distinguish themselves if they become become that real advocate.
We'll see, as you say, there's certainly more acceptance that
it's part of the solution. The question is who's going
(46:57):
to embrace it and say no, no, no, no, we're going to
lean into this in a way that we haven't leaned
into it in a long time.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah. Absolutely, I don't go ahead.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, let me get you out of here on this. Yeah,
Homer Simpson, good or bad for nuclear for the for
the for nuclear for the for the perception of nuclear energy.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Okay, bad for the perception, but good for the reason
that it gets conversations going, because you know what, if
you ask me about Homer Simpsons, great, let's talk about it,
and let's talk about all the other awesome things that
nuclear has. So you know, it's so funny.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
We're a product, right, We're all We're all a product
of our own perception. And Matt Grinney, right, he's a
little bit older than I am, but you know that
means you know, his coming of age moment as an
adult was three mile or three mile Island, right, you know,
so it is one of those where your personal experiences
can have a huge impact. And as you said with Fukajima,
if you don't know it, then it doesn't bother. It
(47:52):
isn't going to be the immediate You might not view
something negatively before positively, and that that's probably how the
Simpsons became such a Yeah, is it? Are the Simpsons that?
Do Folks in the nuclear industry hate Matt Greenig for this?
Speaker 2 (48:07):
No? Now, I mean, like I think some people are
like really angsty about it, but I mean I'm kind
of at the point where I'm like, it really does
start conversations, and you know what, his reactor is still running.
So like, if anything that means something, you know, there
you go. So it's something that I think is fine.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Well, it was great to get to know you. Are
you are. Look, you're working in the industry. Are you
doing your own social media, doing your own advocacy outside?
If so, tell me where people can find more information.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, absolutely so. I'm on most social media platforms. Instagram
and LinkedIn are probably my two biggest ones. My Instagram
handle is at Grace dot stanky. It's still my maiden
name and I'm trying to get it switched over, but
if you look up Grace vander High it should still
show up. And then on LinkedIn, I am Grace vander
High there, so feel free to follow, and I post
(49:00):
sorts of fun nuclear content and pictures of my dog
as well, so be warned.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
And you're I assume you're contractually obligated to be a
Packer fan if you grew up in Wisconsin.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Oh my god, yeah, I gladly, yes, always.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Well, we're taping on a day that has been a
troubling twenty four hours for our beloved Packers. Yes, too
many injuries, but hey, hope springs eternal, so hopefully by
the time people start to see this, the packers of
our division champs. They've put the Bears in their proper place.
Speaker 2 (49:28):
And uh oh yeah we can go from there.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Hey, Grace, it was great to get to know you.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Awesome, Thanks so much, Jock appreciated.
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