Alexis Ohanian on Life After Reddit

Emily Chang meets Reddit co-founder Alexis Ohanian at Athlos NYC, an annual women’s track and field event. They discuss his expansive athletics portfolio, venture career and what happened when he left Reddit.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Emily Chang and this is the circuit for two decades.
Alexis o'hannian has a master of fortune, betting on ideas
others overlook. He co founded Reddit when social media was
in its infancy, found success as an early stage investor,
and has helped launch the recent boom in professional women's sports.
So you're running a vac firm, advising dozens of startups,

(00:21):
raising two young daughters, trying to reinvent women's sports, all
while maintaining a very public profile. What batteries are you
running on? Because I want some of that.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
I mean, it's caffeine, lots of it, a few cups
a day, And I really genuinely love what I do.
And then when the thing that you love doing also
compensates you really well for it, why would I not.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
Want to do it.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
O'hannian has also been no stranger to controversy. I caught
up with him in New York to unpack his exit
from Reddit, hear the advice given to him by his wife,
Tennis legend Serena Williams, and to learn about his efforts
to relaunch dig as a social media platform where real people,
not bots, are shaping what we see. Okay, so yes,

(01:05):
are you ready for your ama?

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Bring it? Yeah? Oh yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
And what's nice you can say that we failed to trademarket,
so it's all yours.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
So you have built your career around this idea of
not waiting for permission? Where does that come from?

Speaker 3 (01:19):
I'm just a very impatient person.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
And I also I think the middle aged me was
empowered by the Internet because, you know, I managed to
talk to my parents and getting me a computer. I
managed to talk them into you know, it's a big investment,
and then an Internet connection, and.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Even though they'd had no idea what I was doing.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
On that computer, I found strangers on the Internet willing
to help me with learning how to code. And at
the time, I mean even just HTMLCSS web design felt
so empowering because I could build a website anyone in
the world could see and didn't have to really ask
freting permission. And there was something really powerful about that
that I got addicted to. And I'll also never forget

(01:58):
video games got me in a proming and I had
downloaded the Quake two source code. I was able to
change the power of the default blaster to instantly kill
a monster which doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
But as soon as I was playing a version of
this game that I loved that I had just remixed,
I had just changed the source code to make this
thing do my bidding, it felt like a superpower. And

(02:21):
so that feeling that software provided, and then the access
to the knowledge freely given by experts to me a
door key kid in my parents' house, was life changing.
And I think that altered my brain chemistry enough to think, Okay,
this tool can.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Be so enabling, so empowering.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
And by the time I was getting ready to graduate
from high school, my dad, who had been a travel
agent in his whole life, he had started his own
small travel agency a few years earlier, just before the
rise of the OTA, the online travel agency. So my
poor dad's business went from making a little bit of
money every time you sold a plane ticket to zero.
They were slashing agent commissions because the future of travel

(02:58):
agencies was dead. And I watched software, This technology, the Internet,
that I thought was just a fun toy, altered my
family's entire trajectory, and I saw what it did to
my dad and his business.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Thankfully he endured.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
They pivoted and he figured out a way, never asked
for a bailout, He just adapted the business. And I said, well,
I want to be on the other side of this disruption.
And so those forces shaped me entirely from middle school
to high school and I just haven't gotten over it.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
I guess you named your firm seven seven six after
the first Olympic Games. Yes, what is the thesis here?
In twenty twenty five AD.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
It was a nod to my daughter Olympia. I didn't
want to name the firm after her, literally because my
wife pointed out if we had another kid, and spoiler
we had another kid, that kid would be jealous.

Speaker 3 (03:42):
So good call.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And then the nice story that ties into it is
in that first Olympics, the first event was a foot race,
interestingly enough, that was run by a number of folks,
you know, the best athletes in the world, and there
was this cook who heard about the event. True story
gets called up. Besides that, I'm going to go compete,
runs this event and he's the first ever Olympic champion.
He wins the race a cook. My god, what a

(04:04):
great story, and it is. It's also an even better
story when you realize he wasn't the best athlete in
the world that day. He was the best athlete who
got invited. The Greeks didn't invite a whole ton of
people who just were outside of the Greek world, millions
of people, many of whom were probably faster than that
Greek guy. But worse, you know, women were not even
allowed to watch the Olympics back then, let alone participate,

(04:25):
so they were missing out in greatness in their own midst.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
And the lesson for us that we've.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Architected the firm around is this idea of You know,
when I reflected on my own career at that point
five years ago starting this firm, I thought, well, damn,
this feels like I'm kind of.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
Celebrating the cook, and yes, very proud of it.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
But our job, especially as the earliest investors in many
of these ambitious ideas, is to not feel in any
way comfortable with the fact that we've done enough to
seek out greatness everywhere, and whether that is in the ideas,
whether that's in the founder. We have to push ourselves
because otherwise we're just celebrating that cook and this idea
of always being on the starting line, that's our I

(05:02):
ripped off the Jeff Bezos day one thing, but that's
our version of it. And I know, I mean, I
have the I have seven seven six tattoo to my body.
This is the last literally literally on my bicycle. This
is this is the last company I'm going to start.
And I'm so proud of what we do and how
we do it. And I do believe.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
You know, if I got to leave my daughters.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
In the morning to go work on the farm, I
want a really good reason why. I do love the
time I spend with them, and I'm choosing to work.
But I'm choosing to work because I think one it's
going to be financially beneficial for the family, but also
more importantly, because I want them to be really proud
of that and to see these are the things dad
does to be useful and to have an impact and

(05:39):
again provide outside returns, but at the same time do
so in a way that aligns with values and in
a way that I hope makes them really proud. When
they're teenagers and they can ask me hard questions, I
want to have the best answers possible.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Yeah, you and your partners are on track to meet
with a thousand founders or have a thousand meetings with
various entrepreneurs over the course of the year. No, what
makes your playbook different from everyone else's, Like, why should
they take your money?

Speaker 2 (06:02):
The fact that you know that number is one of
the reasons why. Because I've built an entire operating system
called Cerebro that runs our firm, so we actually have data.
We know where we spend our time, we know how
many intros we make for founders, we know our median
response time to founders. We literally put them live on
the homepage because it was so frustrating to me that
our entire industry kept talking about how useful they were

(06:24):
and oh, how value add they were, but they never
actually provided evidence. If I was out pitching my company
and all I did was use adjectives to convince investors
why people love my product, I'd get laughed out of
a room. They'd say, just show us the data. What
are you using all these words for? And yet every
VC does exactly that. We're making the case to founders,
So I let the data speak for itself. And we

(06:44):
want to build a culture of accountability to our founders,
to each other, and just build with software in order
to scale our networks in order to scale our distribution,
in order to scale all the things that software does
really well.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
Most VC investments don't pay off, like most go to
zero power law. How do you know when to take
a ride and when to pass?

Speaker 2 (07:04):
This is the this is the billionaither question, especially at
early stage, it is overwhelmingly the founder. I have just
become more and more confident in that fact the more
time I've spent being an early stage investor, and I've
been very lucky to be in early check in amazing companies.
I mean, Coinbase, instacart, row Health, Flock, Flexport, Patreon, the great,

(07:25):
great companies. The commonality there always comes back to the founder,
often the CEO, but at least one founder who is
really the one that you're betting on. And it's understanding
how much they empathize with the customer, how relentless they're
going to be in building the taste that they have,
And that kind of comes back to the empathy.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
It's one thing you have to have that foundational empathy
for the customer.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Then it's also crucial to have the taste to say
like this is good enough for this isn't good enough.
And then timing is the one thing we can't control
where we still factored in, and I have to be
sympathetic to that because you know why Combinator rejected the
initial idea, which was my Mobile Menu or MMMM for short.
It was a this is two thousand and five. I

(08:06):
came up with that name too. See you didn't like it,
but that's okay. And the idea was you could order
food from your phone, but again it was it was five,
so no smartphones. Was a text message, and because I'd
worked in Pizza Hut and we would get those orders
in the kitchen that would come into the printer, it
just made sense to me that, you know, why not
just send the message, have the customer send the message.
Had that go through anyway? Why c thankfully rejected it

(08:27):
because it was too early. The tech was going to
be too hard to build into restaurants especially, and they said,
come back with some other idea in the next day.
As it goes, you know, we came back with this
idea and met with Paul and ended up being read
it software in a browser first, not on a phone,
and so timing killed my company, but in the best
way possible because we didn't spend the next God we
would have spent the next four or five years trying

(08:50):
to build, and then the smartphone revolution would have happened
and we probably would have run out of money before then.
So timing's one thing we have to try to anticipate
best we can. Knowing the founder can't affect that, but
really it's a bet on the founder.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
Can they pull this off.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
What's your snapshot on where venture capital is at the moment.
It's been a really difficult environment.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
What's your take?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
So, like you said, it's a power law business. So
a disproportion number of the returns that first fifty six
xdpi fund that came from Coinbase Instacart, there were probably
another fifty investments in that first fund that went to zero,
and that's fine.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's the power law.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
So just like the power law dictates returns in venture,
especially early stage, power law also dictates how venture firms
stack up. And I think you're in a business where
there are these outsized mega firms, right, the sequoias, the
and reasons, but also the sort of newer generations like
the thrives, and they will continue to get more and

(09:44):
more capital as they clearly are you know, the big
dogs with the war chest that can double down in
those big winners at the later stage, and then at
the early stage. There are firms I like to leave
seven seven six is one of them that can win
against all comers and that have a clear value proposition
and want to be the best early and we'll tell down.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
In the bigger winners.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
We just wrote a check in the Stoke SpaceX competitor
that's been doing well that we had seeded. But like
there's a middle of VC firms that are just as
the kids would say, mid that are probably going to
have a really hard time because they can't get into
the deals that the biggest and baddest firms can easily
get into and have the capital to get into, and
they're not able to get in or maybe even identify

(10:22):
those early stage companies that we feel like we have
an edge, and so I think it's gonna be a
hard time for them, but also for.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
The industry as a whole. Look the biggest trend.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
I had a chat with Sama at the robin Hood Summit,
that's the Foundation proud board member here in New York.
I was interviewing him and one of my clips with
him went viral because he said it's only a matter
of time until there is a one person billion dollar company,
and that has stuck in my head.

Speaker 3 (10:47):
It's echoed in my head actually for years since.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
You know, for pure software businesses, for sure, founders will
need less and less capital going forward, which is a
threat to venture. I think again, if you're in that middle,
you're gonna have a hard time. If you're where we sit,
and you know you can still be that first check. Really,
what it means is less dilution. As founders can get
to profitability sooner, they don't need to take on more funding,
which means you're not getting deluted, just like they're not

(11:11):
getting included. And I think I think it ends up
still being a big win. And then it's interesting. You know,
venture now has spent a lot more time in the
more costly spaces. So just like I said, we did
our first space tech investment five years ago, we're doing
more hardware than ever. You had a great interview with
Palmer Lucky. I was very proud to have been able
to invest in mod retro Is Electronics and Ssumer Electronics company.

(11:32):
Hardware has always been something that's really excited me as
a software guy because it's always felt a harder as
the name would imply, but it's as a software guy,
you're very in awe of.

Speaker 3 (11:42):
Folks who build with atoms. I'll speak for myself.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Software feels easy by comparison, and I love the fact
that Venture is now pushing itself to be more ambitious
so that we get to invest in companies that are
building reusable rockets or video game consoles or supersonic jets.

Speaker 3 (11:57):
Are the things that we do.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
You were in the inaugural dominator class, Yeah, two thousand
and five.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
With twenty one years ago, almost twenty years ago.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
With Sam Allman's good crew, Steve Hoffman, your co founder,
a Reddit.

Speaker 3 (12:08):
The Twitch guys, Twitch guy's Justin Emett.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
What advice would you give founders today that's different than
what you got back then?

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Boy, lots Well obviously look why c's changed a lot
since then. The easy one is the advice that I
would keep the same, which Paul Graham put it on
everyone's shirt, and I think it still holds true, which
is makes something people want.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
In twenty years.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Now, I can say, having started multiple companies, seated many
many more, that founding principle never goes away. And if anything,
in this new world where attention is so scarce, and
you have to work so hard to get your first hundred,
first thousand, first one hundred thousand, whatever customers. Making something
that people truly want and best case scenario getting them
to prove it by paying money. That's the thing you

(12:51):
wake up for every morning. Even in building the Formula
one of track and field with athlos all we tell
our team day over day over day, no matter how
much press we get the day before, no matter what
big moment happens with a brand partnership, or we have
to re earn attention all over again. The next morning
everyone has forgotten the internet has moved on earn it again,
and that mindset, whether it's earning it again with our athletes,

(13:15):
with our brand partners, with our fans like that never
goes away, and so that is more important than ever.

Speaker 3 (13:20):
Probably the biggest thing I would change is ooh Okay.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
So in two thousand and five, it was an eclectic
group of folks in that first YC batch. It was
not normal to want to do a startup in two
thousand and five, and that was the genius of YC.
They realized this opportunity before everyone else did.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
Let's give for us.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
It was twelve thousand dollars for two college kids to
go build a company. Maybe it could one day be
worth billions. Sam is the one exception. I think Sam
very much. He knew exactly what he wanted to build.
He knew I think he had a roadmap to what
tech could be in the world. Speaking for myself, I
was just happy to not have a boss. I was
just happy to build something that I cared about every

(14:01):
day and build something that just seemed fun. I think
the founders for today need to know just how much
responsibility they have, and actually most of them do in
what they're building. We can't hide from the fact tech
is undeniably the highest leverage industry in our world. And
you can look at the market caps of the biggest
companies in the world, or you can look at just

(14:22):
the fact that this technology shapes so much of our world.
And so what I would tell founders is look, and again,
most of them have They're.

Speaker 3 (14:30):
Way less naive than I was twenty years ago.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
They are very aware of this fact, and so I
would say, move decisively, move earnestly, be aware of what
you're building, and know that like this responsibility starts right now.
For building something that is going to have a very
big impact in the world and if you are successful,
that's undeniable now.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
And I think.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Hopefully it also raises everyone's game up because we can
no longer just sort of dismiss it as like, yeah, sure,
you know, we build an app for cute cat photos
that people vote up. And it is I think very
clear just how big this all really is.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Your portfolio isn't as heavy on core AI as some
other No investments in the frontier labs that I can see.
Did you miss it or are they missing something?

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Look, I think as an early stage investor, those frontier
labs have been priced out for a minute. We may
or may not have some shares in Anthropic, though directly
on the cap table, not those weird seven layer deep
SPVs that I've seen flown around.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
Okay, well that is an you do have shares an Anthropic, yes.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
But you know, for an early stage VC, I think
where I've gotten most fired up is at the application layer.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
So I seated Flock it was like a decade ago.
Athellis is another one.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Both computer vision startups back in like twenty fourteen fifteen,
when it was still really basic computer vision. No one
really called it ai because we still hadn't obviously crossed
the threshold. But why those were compelling is that they
were solving a real palm people were willing to spend
money for, and it was, you know, a simple enough
technology that like you could do today. Where we've gotten

(16:02):
really excited is a good example of a company like Doji,
based here in New York that is brought to life
this fashion avatar, the.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Thing we've all wanted since clueless.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
In this case, you take a few selfies, you take
a couple full body photos, and you have a beautiful
looking avatar that you can now drop in a URL
for any shopping website at Khulou Vuitton. It could be
old Navy and see yourself in those clothes here instantly.
And so that was a company we had funded pre
launched when it was just an idea, and a couple
of founders Thrive actually just invested quite a bit of

(16:33):
cash in that company in their latest round and we're
hopeful like that ends up being where Again, if you
go back to what makes a consumer app viable and popular,
it's a lot of the same funding principles that have
made Reddit successful and It's about building a great product
that people love, and I think those foundation folks are
going to keep thriving on some level. Obviously a lot

(16:53):
of money is going into all that to keep building.
But where I get excited is how our users actually
going to fall. I love the product that does something
so damn well that even when Google launch is there,
I think Google had some version of like.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Oh yeah, try on your clothes.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
No startup has ever actually been killed by Google launching
a product because they don't understand how to create a
really amazing user experience in that way.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
And if anything, it just gives you more validation.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
So you're running a VC firm, advising dozens of startups,
raising two young daughters, trying to reinvent women's sports, all
while maintaining a very public profile. What batteries are you
running on? Because I want some of that?

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I Emily, you should talk. You've got a prolific career yourself.
I mean, I think, what is it? I mean it's caffeine,
lots of it, A few cups a day, and I
really genuinely.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
Love what I do.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
I told you I hang a responsibility over me. That's
probably not healthy, but it fuels me to do more,
do better, really earn what I have, or try my
best to And like I said, I mean, I do
genuinely love it. And I think they're that adage, that
cliche about oh, if you do what you love, you
never work a day in your life. And I truly
feel lucky that I've lived that. I've lived it basically

(18:07):
since college. And it's a hell of a drug. And
then when the thing that you love doing also compensates
you really well for it, Like why would I not
want to do it?

Speaker 1 (18:14):
How has being a dad of daughters changed the founders
that you're drawn to and the problems that you think
are worth solving.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
I'd like to think that I had a perspective before.
It's crazy, it's only been eight years since becoming a dad,
but I really can't think of what I was thinking
back then, Like I feel like a very different person
now in how I see the world, And so I
don't know how much I'd attribute to I don't know.
I think undeniably having a couple daughters, especially black daughters,

(18:42):
just gives me a different perspective on navigating the world.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
And so look, at the end of.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
The day, I'm looking to make investments to generate the
biggest returns. And I think it is a very obvious
thing that our industry at tech has been largely defined
by dudes and you know.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
A lot of white guys.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
But what's really interesting here to me is the more
touch points I get into different industries, different cultures, just
different things. For someone in this role, both as an
entrepreneur and an early stage investor, I am trying to
learn from every experience I have. This is probably to

(19:22):
a fault, and my wife's commented on it a few
times because apparently it's not a normal thing. I am
trying to pay attention to everything because I'm trying to learn.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
I'm trying to connect some.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Dot to something that goes back to some business that
I have started or I have invested in.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
And I think that's probably what made.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Me effective in that role building Reddit, because at the
end of the day, you're just scrolling through infinite conversations
trying to connect dots and understand community trends and all
that sort of thing. And I think that's made me
a very good investor. And look their companies. Oh there's
one company hopefully we'll have announced by then. It's a
robot that is a listing stylists or braiders in braiding

(20:02):
natural hair. It's called Halo braid and this is a product.
Very excited to invest it in Yinko, who's the CEO.
She's going to build the Dyson of natural hair. And
that is probably an easy, very obvious example of a
thing that I would have been maybe aware of before,
but now that I've lived through just how long some

(20:23):
of these braiding sessions are and tried my best to
help I understand and there's Look, there's an incredible tradition
there that's important to preserve, and it's not removing the
human from it, it's just making her life much easier.
This can take six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours, like
it can go for a very long time. And here's
an entrepreneur solving a problem that probably a lot of
other founders would not even be aware of. And yet again,

(20:46):
I mean, you could take a quick search and realize
just how big the industry is around all things natural hair.
And if you believe that robotics are going to play
a much bigger role in our lives and in our
homes the next few years, as most of us do,
a lot of folks are going to look at you know,
how do I build the next robot that's going to
wash dishes or clean up some trash, Which is fine,
that's a big problem. There are lots of people trying

(21:07):
to solve that. This is an industry laying in plain
sight where you have a founder who's taking a different
perspective that is not going to have real competition I
think for a very long time and be able to
dominate in a space that's going to be incredibly valuable.
And so again it comes back to that starting line,
how am I making sure we are seeing as many
pitches as possible from as many sectors, as many founders,

(21:28):
so that we're not just satisfied with the random cook
who won that day. We're really finding greatness everywhere.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
You know who also talked about braiding hair on the circuit,
Mark Zuckerberg.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Zuck did he spent time. Zuck is a great girl
dad as well. Here's the other part too. I knew
I was only having daughters. I will only have daughters,
make sure of it, and I needed it. It was
important for me. I think it softened me in really
really important ways to understand, especially as an entrepreneur, you

(21:58):
really get afflicted with this disease where you know, whatever,
it's a thing you really think you're the most important person.
You really think you are the main character. And I
think guys in particular we have we're a little more
prone to this affliction. Okay, And becoming a father is
one thing because in that moment, you're like, oh, I'm
not the most important person like this little human is.

(22:19):
But then when you have a daughter, it softens you
in another way that it's hard to explain. Now, I
haven't had a son, so technically I don't know what
to compare it to, but I know how much having
these little girls has given me a different window, because
you know, I feel like I can sympathize or empathize
with my wife to a certain extent, but there's something
about it being your child where now all of a sudden,

(22:39):
like you really are connected to me in a deep,
deep biological and sentimental and just emotional way. And there's
such a sweetness to these girls that just makes me
feel I don't know, you see how I live my
life publicly online, like I keep it a hundred with
folks for better or for worse, because that's just how
I'm wired but when I come home to them, I

(23:00):
get that hug. It feels different, and these girls just
they bring out the best in me in a way
that I'd like to believe a son could.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
But it's a little different.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
And at the same time, I do feel like I
never quite do enough as a husband or a dad.
There is that tension, and I try to speak about
it openly and plainly, because plenty of professional women have
to deal with this day in.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
And day output like dads feel that too.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Dads feel it too, And that was probably the best
part about There were lots of great things about becoming
a father, but one of my favorites was getting to
know men who already really respected, wildly successful in so
many industries, who then let me into this club once
I became a father, and they started to tell me
about the good times the bad times, And I'm like, guys,
like this has been on your minds the whole time

(23:42):
and you only talk to other dads about it, Like
this conversation needs to get normalized. So young men, before
we even think about having a family, are seeing this
other path to excellence that is yes, career driven as
all hell, but also aware of the fact that like,
probably the best thing I'll ever do is going to
be these little humans that I helped bring into the
world and raise. And so I like seeing that there's

(24:03):
definitely been a shift now in the meta. I feel
like the last five years and you know, trying to
do it all, Like everybody trying to do it all.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
So let's talk about dig. Are you trying to make money?
Are you trying to take on TikTok? What's the vision?
Who's the competition?

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Who is the competition for Dig?

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Well, you know, Kevin Rose and I used to be
arche Nemesis CEOs back in the day Reddit versus Dig.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
I hated his guts. I hated his guts.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
I had a gift of Kevin Rose. At a dignation event,
someone had thrown a Reddit T shirt on stage.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
He picked it up, he held it to the crowd.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
They booed, and he blew his nose on the shirt
and threw it to the side. And I used to
watch this clip probably once or twice a week. And
I have a folder I may still have it, a
Dropbox folder where I would have all these things that
just called up my wall of negative reinforcement. I had
a literal wall when we were starting Reddit, right like

(24:59):
when the Yahoo executive called us a rounding air, I
put that on my wall. So every day when I
went to the office, I could see this guy, You're
a rounding air. I won't name him, he's still in tech,
and it would motivate me. And then, of course the
day that reddits are passed Yahoo in traffic, I was like,
all right, we'll see rounding air.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
And so with Kevin, you know, it was an innocuous thing.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
It wasn't like he but he did this and it
was so important to me because whenever I felt like
a little tired, I felt like I don't really want
to do this thing. I gotta do, man, I watched
that clip and I remembered why I need to prove
him wrong. And so it was great. We buried Dig
and I felt like great, victory, awesome, But I never
actually met Kevin and on some level, look, Dig was first,

(25:41):
honest to god, I did not know about it.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Neither of us did.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
I still had the email where I learned about it,
and I send email to Paul Graham and I was like, oh,
we have a competitors called Dig. This was probably six
to nine months after a dig had launched, so they
were first and.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
I finally met him.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
This is now years later, it's probably four or five
years ago, maybe six years ago, and we absolutely hit
it off, and I thought to myself, God, why did
this take so long. He's a girl dad, I'm a
girl dad. We thought about the world in much the
same way. We were building basically the same company at
the same time, with a similar view on community and
product and all this stuff.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
And if I'm being awesome myself, part.

Speaker 2 (26:18):
Of the reason I hated him was this kind of
like jealousy and a competitive spirit, and there was probably
I saw a version of me in him, and he
was getting things I didn't get. Remember, they were, you know,
venture funded front of magazines. They were the king they
were the champions. We were the sort of runty other
company for five six years.

Speaker 3 (26:38):
And so as I more understood where that.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Jealousy came from and how that jealousy was really rooted
in respect, and then I came to realized, like, I
actually love this guy.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
He's great. Got to change everything.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
And so yeah, he told me he was buying back
the domain and I said, Kevin, this is a great idea.
Can I do this with you and so.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
So he is the goal to make money or to
get for your jealousy.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
Oh no, no, we're buddies now that but remember I
have a wall of negative reinforcement. So the idea that
we could build a platform in the AI age that
has all the community tools that we know could be
better with AI. So imagine a moderator's job is not
ninety percent garbage and ten percent community management, but actually

(27:21):
ninety percent community management and ten percent sort of garbage collection.
AI is what enables that those tools help scale the
work of the moderators that on most of these platforms
spend a lot of their time doing like digital grunt
work that's not satisfying. And then also in this age
of AI, can we build a community platform that is
authentically human? People are realizing now just how much of

(27:41):
our social feeds are fake. I mean it's striking. I'd
say at a minimum it's a third. I think, wow,
with dead Internet theory, I really it could be as
much as half are in some way compromised. And so
that could be outright a bot that could be a
human posting AI generated content sort of a scale, that

(28:02):
could be an account that gets purchased in order to
have the moderator rights in a community.

Speaker 3 (28:08):
And so, what do you do in an age.

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Where you know, because of AI, we are going to
become more and more skeptical of every interaction we have.
How do you reimagine a community first platform where you
have verifiable humans without saying, oh, hey, you know, scan
your retina?

Speaker 3 (28:22):
And so I think dig can be that. And then yeah,
on a personal level, I would love nothing more than
to see if we could do it again again or
better both.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
I mean, how many founders get the chance to run
it back in a similar product in a similar market.
I mean you talk about Palmer is definitely one of them.
There's a short list of folks who have done that,
and it would be a lot of fun. It'd be
a lot of fun to do.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
If the engine of virality is extremism and day is
supposed to be the antidote, how do you drive engagement?

Speaker 2 (28:57):
I think what we found in authentic human online community
is it's the last bastion of really high quality content
and right now I don't think actually, I think most
of it goes down in the group chats. I think
that's where most of that happens today. And so whether
you want to know an opinion about a movie, whether

(29:18):
you want to know about a camera to buy. There
is always going to be real, real value there as
long as you can curate a space that people believe
is authentic and human. And Lord knows, we know the
lms will pay money for that content because they know
how valuable that is to train on. But what I
worry about is there is this flywheel of if we
know these models are train on content that are now

(29:41):
largely bodied or AI generated, that authenticity loop breaks down
real quick, and that trust breaks down real quick. And
so I think we will need to find repositories of
real community that are verifiable and engaging. And I think
the reason why people will want to come back to
them is because you'll be surrounded by so much noise,
so much slop. And the stop gap right now is

(30:02):
in the group chats. But that's clearly not where it ends.
There clearly needs to be some other version of you know,
if you just want to show up and find a
community of people who love cameras, where do you go
to get authentic, real human reviews of those things.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Reddit is actually one of the oldest social media companies
because it was founded in two.

Speaker 2 (30:22):
Thousand and five, pre Instagram, after Facebook, pre Snap, pre snap.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah, what do you make of how.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
Far Reddit has come and how much work there still
is to do?

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Oh? I mean this is the startups of the infinite game.
It's not a startup anymore, that's true.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Uh, I think there is. Look, I think everyone's playing
an infinite game here. I'll put it this way. In
the seventh cent and six portfolio, we have companies a
year or two ago that we've had to have the
hard talk with the CEO and say, look, your company

(30:59):
was founded literally just two and a half years ago.
Let's say, and you're a pre AI company, your DNA,
it's a software company, but your DNA is from an
era before we sort of normalized, you know, writing code
with some sort of AI assistance. The speed at which
you ship, the way in which you build is from
this bygone era. And that was just a few years ago.

(31:20):
So imagine any pure software company older than that. That
is a massive shift in how you work in order
to keep up with the modern era. And so I
think any company, especially one a couple of decades old,
is facing some kind of an existential threat or some
kind of question that need to ask themselves, which is

(31:41):
can this company be refounded as the type of company
that moves like a company does today? Today we meet founders.
You know, it's a group of people that can sit
around a box of pizza and they're able to get
to tens of millions in revenue, and soon they'll get
to hundreds of millions in revenue.

Speaker 3 (31:56):
These are the outliers.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
But it's undeniable that this sort of navy c of
software development, the small, cracked team, is going to be
able to punch way above their weight in this new era,
and so it's very hard for the incumbents to adapt.
We'll see, I think some will, but my gut is
a lot of them won't, and it'll be fun to
see how that unfolds.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
A lot was made of the fact that you weren't at.

Speaker 3 (32:19):
The IPO, was it?

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Really, why weren't you there?

Speaker 2 (32:23):
It was so funny. I was just asking. I was like,
I personally don't feel like it was a thing. Why
wasn't I there? Well, I wasn't invited. I did not
expect to be invited. Though given back, given the fact
that I resigned in protests in twenty twenty you know,
that was a very public statement in order to get
the company to finally ban some of these communities. I'd
already had opposition about communities like watch people Die and

(32:46):
some of these really violent and racist communities, and yeah,
you know that was the way to get the change.
The good news is it got it done. Those communities
got banned, and I think it made the business better,
which was good. It was certainly better for society in
my opinion. But uh, yeah, I didn't get the invite.
But the good news is, so there.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Are some bad blood or hurt feelings or bruised.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
Egos, not for me.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
But here's the thing, you know, the way I look
at it, I've got plenty more IPOs to go to.
So it just wasn't this one.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
And we did talk at the time, But why leave
rather than lean in to fix what was broken?

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Well, when you're in a boardroom, especially when you've been
like the founder and face of a company for fifteen years,
you're in a boardroom with four other people and they're
all telling you why the watch people Die community is
an important part of Reddit, and why we need to
preserve that community in spite of your protests because of

(33:45):
free speech, and because of how helpful.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
It is for first responders whatever.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
When you come out of a board meeting like that
and you go home to your wife, as I did, and.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
I'm saying, like, God, am I the crazy one? Like?
Am I wrong on this?

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Because like I know, so this community is full of
snuff videos, suicide videos, murder videos, mostly of people in
the developing world.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Because that's how that video footage gets leaked out.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
And there are millions of people on Reddit who come
to this and discuss it and share and bond. And
that feels vile. That feels wrong. It's not something I'm
proud of. I don't think it's a good thing for
the business. I don't think it's a good thing for
the community. I don't think it's a good thing for society.
I'm trying to steal man this and the best argument
I'm hearing back as well, it's important for free speech,

(34:29):
and it'll help people who have lived in war zones.
And I'm like, I don't think that's real. But when
you're told you know, and the room is very obviously
against you and told no, no, no, don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
You're wrong.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
It is a weird, very surreal experience. And so when
you can't convince a board for other people that the
thing you've spent your life building shouldn't have a community
that feeds millions of people content of people dying on camera,
you know you've got an uphill battle, right you have
a different set of values. And then the really eye

(35:07):
opening thing was, you know, it's one thing to have values,
it's another one those get tested because I think if
held up to public scrutiny, the response public was the
same one, which was, well, this is an important free
speech issue, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
We're going to stick with it.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
I would have disagreed, but I would have respected the
intellectual consistency. And instead, when the christ Church shooting happened
and the media found out about watching people die, what
was the response, We're banning violence, These communities shouldn't be here.
That flipped the switch for me, because now I'm coming
home to dinner, I'm like, so, I wasn't crazy, I

(35:49):
wasn't wrong. It's just no one had the spine to
do something about it. And so now you know, a
month or two goes by and again on the surface,
you're publicly as a company saying we stand in solid
area with black lives. We're changing our logo where we're
writing a blog post and again I'm having this conversation

(36:10):
with members of the board. There are thousands of communities
here I literally cannot name because of the words in
their name. They are so racist and vile. And these
are active communities. These are not one off posts. These
are active communities normalizing. Hey, I can't reconcile a company

(36:31):
that publicly is saying we're not about this, but literally
harboring these communities. And so I took a lesson from
christ Church and the Watch People Die community where what
it took was a spotlight, what it took was sunlight.
And so in that resignation, I could make public my
request to have these vile, racist, violent communities banned, have

(36:54):
myself replaced by director of color, and say you know what,
I'm out. But hopefully this finally gets the change. And
the greatest blessing has been in the last five years
since my God to have had the success that I
have had. I am so lucky in industry after industry industries, right,

(37:15):
I didn't belong five years ago to show up and
make such headway, have such success and forget the money
and the accolades to be this effective and in a
way that aligns with values that I know.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
When my little girl grows up and.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
She asks, Papa, how did you make all this money,
I can tell her and feel so good about it.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
God, it feels good.

Speaker 2 (37:36):
And so, you know, there is a part of me
that probably thinks, maybe I should have done it sooner,
maybe I should have left sooner. But more importantly, maybe
I should make sure that I'm never again in a
room with four other people that see the world so
fundamentally differently than I do. And you know, Serena clocked
it real quick. She was like, no, those people are crazy.

(37:57):
Watch people die as a horrible community, And you're absolutely right.
And thank god I had one person in my life
who at least was able to call that, and it
just gave me a perspective. And I feel, like I said,
I feel very fortunate that I'm never gonna have to
be in a room like that again.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You were at the forefront of defending Section two thirty
at one point. Do you feel differently now about content
and platforms and accountability?

Speaker 3 (38:18):
Not at all.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
I think Section two thirty exists in this same world,
right you can want section two thirty and also say,
I like to use the analogy of like a platform
like Reddit is like a digital Javit center.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Since we're here in New York.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
You're a private company that is hosting this infinite convention hall,
and so you make the choice, oh, hey, we got
the Pokemon convention over here, we have the Yankees conference
over here, we have the Watch People Die conference over here.
Like you're making an active choice around the communities that
you harbor as a private business, and you have the
right to say no, sorry, KKK, we actually don't watch

(38:55):
you here because over here we're just trying to enjoy Pokemon.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
And so Section two.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Thirty is an important issue because it protects platforms on
the individual basis of the stuff gets posted. And that's
like the random person walking into the Pokemon conventional saying
something toxic that's different from hey, we actually are hosting
the KKK here in our convention center.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Text shift to the right. How do you feel when
you see tech CEOs who used to say and do
one thing saying and doing something different?

Speaker 3 (39:23):
Now, well, I just.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
Told you that last story, right, Having values only really
matter when they get tested.

Speaker 3 (39:29):
So unfortunately it's not surprising. I do think I actually, okay,
is it disappointing? You can't be disappointed after the stuff
I've seen. You can't get disappointed.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
The bar is low I'm going to get I watch
people die, Please judge for yourselves.

Speaker 3 (39:46):
How important for society and business? That is okay? So
what do I think? I really believe that? And maybe
I'm just a masochist.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I think having this culture shift, I actually appreciate c
it in that it's a test for my own values.
It wouldn't feel very good if the things I believed
flapped so effortlessly in the political wins. I think there
are issues in text shift to the right that I

(40:16):
actually agree with. This is by no means a monolith,
like there are certain things that I think have been
a good shift, But I do think overall, yeah, with
this vibe shift, if you will, it makes it even
more important for me to say the things I'm going
to say, especially from the position of power that I have.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
And so, like I said, if I have.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
I think ten million people, like I said, saying, I mean,
some just vile stuff about me on Twitter because I
tell the story of my mom, who is an undocumented immigrant.
Fun I would rather have that statement in the public record,
and I know that there are millions more people who
actually would read what I have to say and be like, oh,

(40:54):
that's fairly reasonable policy, And I'd rather use the platform
I have to say those things and again continue to
be tested by the fact that, you know, if I
had tweeted that five years ago, it wouldn't have certainly
met that level of toxicity and criticism. So I think
it's a great test of what one believes to be
able to say those things in an environment where you
have people saying awful stuff back to you.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
But I don't know that stuff doesn't affect with too much.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
You have daughters, But it's also a tough moment for
raising suns.

Speaker 3 (41:22):
Yeah, and ex truly.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
Kids are being pushed to the margins across the board.
Does that worry you?

Speaker 2 (41:28):
I actually care more about the plight of young boys
because look, in all I like Coilhood. Those are the
guys that my daughters are going to have to choose
from as partners, right, as life partners. I'm going to
raise some kick ass girls. I need awesome young men
for them to couple up with, right, And so I
think in the pursuit of elevating young girls and women,

(41:49):
we forgot or we in some cases pushed down creating
those pathways for young boys. And again, I statistically, my
daughters are probably going to want guys in their lives
who are great too, who are self assured, who are
capable or are confident, who are able to do all
these things and be high functioning contributors to society, and
so we should want that even as girl dads. And

(42:09):
so I do think now that you have this tonal
shift back, so there's more awareness of the plight of
young boys and young men in particular, also at a
time when I think there's enough data to show that
in any population, having young men feeling hopeless and helpless
is very bad for society young women. It's also not
good if young women feel that way, but they tend

(42:31):
to take out that marginalization in less toxic.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
Ways than men do.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
So I think we have a societal imperative to do
more for these young men, especially at a time when
you have many in a generation feeling like they're going
to do worse than their parents, and when they are
feeling all these I think very valid concerns, And again
you can I guess kind of blame me for this.
The conversation on social media has just it rewards the
most extreme because it's either one side playing to their

(42:58):
base or the other side antagonizing the other. And it
seems like the generation coming up now gen Z has
run its course with social media. They're looking for alternatives.
They don't want to see their self worth measured in
followers like millennials, and I hope that gives rise to
some other opportunities to actually communicate and share ideas.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
But it's a big one.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
We seem to be going all in on this narrative
that tech's going to just make our lives better, and
yet at the same time barreling towards a future where
we have less interpersonal skills, less jobs, people can't focus
on multiple things at one time. Is it reasonable to
leave that tech which got us here will get us out.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I think so, and I think so one because I'm
just a tech optimist, so I can't help that. I
do think we have to build our way out of it.
We talk about this a lot internally, to the skills
that I want to make sure my kids have, and
I hope our education system builds up in a whole
generation of kids as well. Are a lot of the
things that make us more human. So those interpersonal skills,

(43:58):
the public speaking skills, the empathy, the creativity, like raw
horsepower intelligence is now commoditized, which is great news for.

Speaker 3 (44:07):
Students like me. Like I said, it was a good student,
it's not a great student.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
I really hope this is going to take a much
bigger shift, but I really hope. I think APPA School
is a great example as we can start elevating those
softer skills, those interpersonal skills, actually in the school day,
so that those are the things kids are spending time doing.
And if they can spend an hour having an AI
tutor help them through all the fundamentals in what would
have taken a human teacher hours and hours and hours

(44:32):
and tons of bullshit homework and all this stuff, I
think that's a huge win for all of us. And
so I'm still hopeful. And yes, there's all the memes
of what is at the gen Z Stare. I'm really
showing my age now, but there is what.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
It's like a blank stare, the gen Z Stay. It's
like a whole thing.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
And so the good news is for that generation, any
of the young people who are not wired that way have.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
A huge advantage.

Speaker 2 (44:56):
They are going to be head and shoulders above their
peers when it comes to competition in terms of building
companies are even working or all that stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
But the cultures adapt quickly.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
I think technology overall is still a force for good
and I think part of unfortunately, what it requires is
the pendulum has shift far enough that enough people are like, yo,
this is broken, Like he needs to shift back.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Our kid's best friend is going to be ais though
I know and I know you, and some will be
I know you and Olympia spend a lot of time
on chatchipt.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
We do, and I want her to be exposed, and
that's with parental supervision. But we'll do like a big
question and I'll force her every night. Some nights she
really doesn't want to do it, and she'll just look
at the salt shaker and be like, where does salt
come from? I'm like, Olympia, you were not thinking about
this question all day long, Like you just looked at
the salt and just want to get through it.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
But it's fine.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
We do a lesson on salt and fun and so
chatcheapt ends up becoming this brilliant, always on tutor that
can help explain stuff, and okay, but I want her
to see it as a tool, not as a friend.
I do think realistically, some portion of the population will
probably opt into these AI relationships, And if I were
in a ballpark, it maybe ten or twenty percent. I

(46:03):
mean there's already you know, there's always that story that
goes viral. There's that married guy who's in love with
an AI and he has a wife and a child,
and the wife and child they're like, yeah, he's in
love with his AI, and like that for sure is
not a healthy thing. But I think if you talk
to Sam Altman about this or any of those folks,
they're all going to say, well, you know, users still
need to use these tools as they see fit.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
And I think realistically ten or twenty percent of the
population will have some deep affection for an AI. Now,
how different is that from a deep video game addiction
or a deep whatever. Like, I think it's a cousin
of other things that our society has that's just found
a new outlet. And then I think for eighty percent
of the population it's a resource. In the best case,

(46:47):
is the way I've used it personally is as a
kind of executive coach to be able to give me
and you really got you really got.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
To tell open Ai to give it to you one hundred.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
Don't be a sick of fan like give it to
me real, but to give you feedback and give you
this real time feedback loop on how you handle that,
maybe a conversation or an email or just be a
thought partner. I think that will be widespread. I think
it'll be wonderfully healthy. I think it'll be a good
thing and will help us be more effective. And then
I do think from a career job standpoint, for sure,
there will be a lot of change. My sister who's

(47:17):
an RN, she asked me this for the last like
ten years. She's like, have you built a company yet
to put me out of business? And I'm like, you
will never not have a job here a nurse. You
are a superhero and the work that you do is
so physically unique, creative, empathetic, strategically it's the last thing
that we'll build a robot to do. But there are
plenty of jobs that are going to be changed, upended.

(47:38):
But I do think there's no limit to human ambition.
Just like one of the biggest jobs in the world
the kids aspired to you today in the United States
is being a YouTuber or a creator thanks to you know,
shout out mister beast seven seven six founder. Is this
idea that didn't exist fifteen, twenty years ago or not
really certainly not thirty years ago. And so yes, there'll
be careers in jobs that don't exist, say that exist

(48:00):
in the future that are thrilling and exciting and pay you.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
And then look, let's get spacefaring. You know there is
no shortage of ambition.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
You think we should go to space.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
Look like I.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
Said early check in Stoke, it's a reasonable rocket company.
I think there is a very significant importance for all
of us on Earth to be very good at space,
certainly as Americans. From even just a defense standpoint, it's
really important for us to be there and have a
big presence. And while I look to invest in space
tech first and foremost to benefit us on Earth. Love Earth,

(48:35):
want it to be around for a long time, want
us to thrive here, I also know that as we
continue to I do think improve things long term and Earth.
I don't hate the fact that we can become a
spacefaring civilization. I don't hate the fact that we could
have maybe not my daughters, but like granddaughters grandsons wanting
to pursue things outside of this world. That's dope to me.

(48:55):
That sounds great, but not in lieu of Earth. Earth
is still planning, really care about it.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
So there's hope for eighty to ninety percent of us.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yes, we still have to save this planet better. We
still have to save this planet for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Even NASA has shown so much innovation that we help
use here terrestrially, and I don't doubt there'll be one
hundred times more from the private space endeavors that are
happening now.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
They'll help us here on Earth.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Reddit said in a statement that it was widely agreed
upon to ban Watch People Die in twenty nineteen, and
that two thousand other communities were banned for violating Reddit's
policy on hateful content in twenty twenty, the year o'hannian
left the company. Reddit said Ohannian and the company's board
of directors did not play a role in the decision
to ban Watch People Die, and that quote policy decisions

(49:43):
at Reddit are made cross functionally between our safety policy,
legal and other teams. Reddit is committed to the safety
of our platform and the health of our community, which
is why we have a long track record of strengthening
our site wide rules. Thanks so much for listening to
this episode of the Circuit. Check out the full episode
to see how Alexis o'hannion is creating a new sports

(50:04):
league and making a big bet on the fastest women
on the planet. I'm Emily Chang. You can follow me
on x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. You can
watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television on
YouTube or on demand by downloading the Bloomberg app to
your smart TV. And check out other Bloomberg podcasts on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever. You listen to your shows

(50:25):
and let us know what you think by leaving a review.
I'm your host and executive producer. Our senior producer is
Lauren Ellis, Our producer is Rob Moraskin. Our editor is
Grammercy Post. Thanks so much for listening. Watch new episodes
of the Circuit on Bloomberg Riginals