June 20, 2025 • 37 mins
Emily Chang speaks with Melinda French Gates to discuss how she’s navigating her next stage as a philanthropic powerhouse.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm Emily Chang, and this is the podcast version of
The Circuit, my show on Bloomberg Originals. Today we're taking
you to Seattle, Washington to meet Melinda French Gates. She's
the famed billionaire, philanthropist, investor, and a champion for gender equality, education, health,
and human rights around the globe. Melinda is one of
the world's most powerful women and became a driving force
(00:24):
of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but she was
often publicly defined by her marriage to the man behind
the Microsoft Empire. Now she's stepping into a new spotlight
that's unapologetically her own. I wanted to get a sense
of the Melinda behind the headlines, the Melinda before the Gates,
and travel with her to a special place in Seattle
where it all began, when she was just Melinda French
(00:46):
starting a new job at this little company called Microsoft.
We've met a few times over the years, when you
were married to Bill and the foundation was humming. We
spoke during the pandemic, when now that I read your book,
you are hiding this separation, and now that you've written
your memoir, I feel like the world knows you as
Melinda Gates, but who is Melinda French Gates.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am the person that I write about in the book.
You know, I have a lot of friends in Seattle,
male and female. I like to do puzzles. I'm intense
at times. I like to have a lot of fun too.
I love to travel, and probably the best kind of
trip is where I'm learning something and or I'm getting
to exercise as part of the trip, you know, hiking
(01:31):
or biking or jogging, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
In the book you talk about you always knew you
wanted to be a working mom, and you know, as
we talked about Unlash, I had this power career, big
tech and risen up in management. What was the transition
like to leave work and be a mom full time
and let that go?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It was something I definitely wanted. Because I was having
this baby, I got pretty clamsy, so I was bed
ridden a little earlier than I thought. I had to
leave work suddenly. But I was planning to leave Microsoft,
and really that had a lot to do with Bill
was the CEO and traveling all over the world and
to have the family life we wanted to have. I
felt like I wanted to be home, but it was
(02:13):
really hard on me. So much harder than I expected.
I moved to a house that was very large, behind
a much bigger git. I have this new little baby
who I adore and love. But you know, I don't
have my career anymore. I'm not around all these hard
charging people intellectual topics. So I had to learn over
time how to rebuild that for myself through my friendships,
(02:36):
and also start doing some board work so I could
stay engaged.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
One of the pieces of advice in your book that
I love is you talk about not needing to be
a perfect parent, but a good enough parent. Can you
explain that?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, I wrote about that because it's a concept I
didn't learn till my kids were in middle school, and
I wish I had learned earlier. I'd always been this perfectionist,
and that's not always a good thing, right, especially as
you're a mom. And so when I finally learned this
concept that children need one good enough parent and they're
(03:08):
going to be okay, I could let my guard down,
because there is no such thing as a perfect parent, right.
But I had some mythical perfect mom in my head.
And once I thought about and read the concept of
the perfect parent, someone explained it to me. I thought, why,
I am certainly a good enough parent these kids, They're
going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Warren Buffett pulled you back to work when he gave
thirty billion dollars to the Bill and the lind Of
Gates Foundation, which you ran together for twenty five years.
What was it that made you say I need to
let this go and step back from that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, leaving the Foundation was something that weighed very heavily
on me. I wanted to be very thoughtful if I left,
but it became just clear to me that the US
was changing very rapidly before our eyes, that women's rights
were being rolled back, and that I had a lot
(04:02):
of work ahead of me that I wanted to do
on that and to use my voice behind. And I
also felt like the Foundation was in a really good place.
It has a board now. Mark Susman's been in the
CEO role. He's fantastic. So I felt like it was
a time I could leave to now emphasize and focus
more on the US. I'm doing both domestic and global
(04:24):
work at Pivotal Ventures on Behalf of Women, but I'm
doing more domestic work given the times we're in.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Pivotal is now the center of all your work. You're
making all of these bets, these gifts, doing all this
research on your own. What are you saying that you
can do differently given your social capital and your economic power.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, it's much the same as what I did at
the Foundation. But I can use my voice completely and
fully in whatever way I want and use my resources.
I don't have to go to a board, I don't
have to go to a partner to decide right, and
so I'm using every tool in my toolbox, whether that's advocacy,
whether that's philanthropy, whether that's investments, because I think all
(05:04):
of those things are needed if we're going to really
advance women to their rightful place in society.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
President Trump pulled the US out of the World Health Organization,
cutting back on scientific research, medical research, foreign aid. How
is President Trump and these actions, how is this impacting
the philanthropic world. I understand that there's quite a sense
of urgency.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
There's an enormous sense of urgency. Just take USAID alone.
That is something that has been in place for a
long time that both Republican and Democratic presidents supported, and
there was a reason for it, a logical reason, which is,
if people can be healthy and have peace and prosper
where they are, they will want to stay there. And
(05:48):
so the cuts in USAID alone, sixteen point nine million
women will not get maternal health services. Think about what
that means to lose a mom in childbirth and she's
already got children at home. I mean, you're going to
devastate some of these communities. People are going hungry because
of those cuts. And what I know from meeting so
(06:12):
many families and so many low income countries around the
world is those grants made a difference in their health
and in their well being and in them being able
to pull themselves out of poverty. As Americans, is that
what we want? Do we want to create more crises
around the world or do we want peace and prosperity
(06:34):
for others so they can live where they are?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So, how are you changing your giving strategy as a
result of what you're seeing.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, there's no amount of philanthropy, none, that can fill
in for the loss from the US government. And I
think the thing people need to most understand is that
was less than one percent, far less than one percent
of the US government budget. So philanthropy can't fill that whole.
What I can do is fund others who are also
(07:04):
working in those communities to lift people up. But make
no mistake, the US has built infrastructure around the world,
the labs around the world that report diseases so we
know about them before they come to our own country.
All of that infrastructure will crumble, all of it. And
so to me, there's no logical sense. There's a logical
(07:27):
sense for saying, maybe there's some places where there was
waste or there was fat, maybe we need to cut
ten percent or fifteen percent. But a good manager looks
at that and looks at it carefully before they make
cuts like that.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It's not just science, it's potentially the Department of Education.
What does this mean for America?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
We don't know yet. We haven't run this particular experiment yet.
But what I know is that we've had a healthy
and thriving democracy. We've had problems around the edges of it,
and definitely I'm the first one to tell you it
needs fine tuning. But to wipe out the Department of Education, now,
how is that good for students? You could decide you
(08:08):
want to do a bit more at the state level.
A lot of what happens is at the state level,
but there needs to be some guidance from the top, right,
So why would you wipe out the whole Department of Education?
How does that benefit students? We need to think about
the end result of who's benefiting from these kinds of things,
and is that the chaos that we want.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
The critics of philanthropy say it's been astonishingly ineffective at
solving societal problems. That giving has increased, but problems have
gotten worse. There's a lot of critiques actually of billionaire philanthropy.
What's fair and what's not well.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I would beg to differ on some of the philanthropy
we know. Millions of people are alive because of the
life saving vaccines that have been developed and given around
the world the Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. Moms and
dads uds in low income countries line up to get
measles vaccines for their children because you know what a
(09:06):
measle's outbreak in their community means that kids die. So
millions of children alive because of that. The President's Emergency
Plan for AIDS relief, started by George W. Bush that
has saved millions of lives. The rate of deaths of
HIV have come down over the years, the number of
(09:26):
children dying of malaria has come down. So has all
of philanthropy been great? No? But has some of it?
And can we measure some of it? You bet we can.
And philanthropy is only one tool in the toolbox. Philanthropy
can take a risk that we wouldn't want government to
(09:47):
take with our taxpayer funding, but it can prove things
out at scale, and then governments can come in to
scale that up. So it takes philanthropy, it takes civil society,
takes government, it takes private sector. But there are large
societal problems that are left behind that things like capitalism
doesn't solve. And as Warren Buffett says, those are the
(10:09):
hard problems left behind, and philanthropy goes and tries and
does their best to tackle those.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Speaking of measuring things, you, Bill and Warren started the
Giving Pledge to encourage people to give away the majority
of their wealth. Some people think it's inspiring, but it's
all taught. There's no accountability. Are you tracking it and
is it working?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
We are tracking it to the extent we can. I mean,
it's hard to know for sure if a particular philanthropist,
if they choose to increase their giving next year. Are
they necessarily going to give the giving pledge credit? Not necessarily.
But what I do know is that a lot of
the philanthropists have learned from one another and they'll get
inspired by another philanthropist and then get going. Not everybody
(10:50):
in the group, but some for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Some good news. Women are actually coming into a lot
more money. There's a huge generational wealth transfer happening. More
women are making money at work. If women control more
money globally, how could that change society?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I think it would change. It will change society fundamentally,
especially if women control the money and can spend it
the way they want. We have good global research that
shows in most countries around the world, low and middle income,
when a woman gets an extra equivalent of a dollar
in her hand, she spends it on her children and
on her family, and she spends it on medications for
(11:29):
her children. So women make different investments versus men. I
also think when women control more resources, they will fund
other women's businesses because they'll say, oh, yes, we need
a new one of those, and the husband may not
see it, or the man may not see it just
because nothing's wrong. He just has a different lens on society,
(11:49):
and so to me, it's profound when women can control resources,
and you're seeing it more in the United States. You're
seeing more women in the middle class working, saving money.
I mean, seventy seven million women in this country work,
and of most families that have kids in the United States,
(12:12):
sixty seven percent of them both parents work. There's a
reason for that. They're trying to get ahead as a family.
They're trying to support their kids with a good education.
And the truth is all over the world. When I've
talked to moms and dads in all kinds of countries
in Africa or Bangladesh or in India, they all hope
and dream the same thing we do for our kids,
(12:34):
which is a better future for their children.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Still, women's rights are under threat. What advice to you
giving to your own daughters right now?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Use your voice, use your voice, learn, learn deeply, and
to the extent you're ready, start using some of your
resources on that. And I couldn't be more proud of
both my daughters and my son for really learning about
the issues and even making visits on the ground.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
What advice are you giving your son?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Keep going, keep doing what you're doing. He has always
believed in women's rights. He also believes strongly in our democracy.
And I learned from all three of my kids, but he,
of the three of them, probably the most is the
one that helps keep me educated sending me articles. Have
you considered this? Think about this other point of view? Mom?
(13:24):
I know this is your point of view, but think
about this other one.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Interesting, you voted for both Democratic and Republican candidates. You
endorsed Kamala Harris for president, which I believe is the
first time you've ever endorsed a presidential candidate. What do
you hope happens between now and the next election, Like,
is there a room of influential people somewhere trying to
figure out how to empower the next generation of candidates.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I hope that in the midterm elections and the elections
that come after that four years from now, that we
have a lot more female candidates and a lot more
candidates the color because when you get women into state legislatures,
when you get them into our Congress, when you get
them into parliament, when you get people of color in
those positions, they create different policy for society because of
(14:12):
their lens on society. And so what I know is
that we need more people in state houses. There's seven
thousand seats at state houses, and we need more people
in Congress that look like us.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Women do things differently. As we've been discussing Mackenzie Scott,
I'm curious what you think of her style of giving.
She's known for this more sort of no strings attached approach,
just give people money and see what they do with it,
whereas the Gates Foundation has historically been more sort of
data driven and strategic. What do you think of her
style of giving.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I think it's fantastic for her for where she is
and what she wants to accomplish. She is living her
values out in society. She writes about her values and
then she lives her values through her giving. She's not
just giving to any organization out there. She's giving to
organization that she thinks are changing society and who are effective.
(15:04):
And I think that's phenomenal good for her. I wish
more people would put their money where their mouth is right.
I mean, we look at billionaires today. They're incredibly privileged,
just like I'm privileged. They should be giving more away,
They should be more doing more with their own wealth
to change society. If you are lucky enough to have
(15:26):
started a company or been born in this country, you
benefited from this country and you should be giving back.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I know you're friends with her. I'm curious how she's
influenced you. Did you reach out to her as you
were trying to figure out how to leave your marriage
and then the foundation.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
She is a very private person and she deserves to
keep her privacy. But I will just say we had
children when they were younger, in and out of the
same school, and so we crossed paths during that time.
And then I would say probably the last eight years
we've formed even more of a friendship. She's had a
(16:02):
little more time as some of her kids go off
to college, so have I, and so we have just
a really nice, candid, supportive friendship. And I'm so grateful
for that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Thank you for sharing that. I know that she's very private,
you know, I think about this question because men are
so well networked and seem to be helping each other
all the time, and I want that for women too.
Do you have relationships you know, is there like a
group of power women chat with you and McKenzie and
Lorraine and Priscilla, Like, do you trade notes? About how
(16:33):
to navigate this life.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Absolutely some of us definitely do, and those are conversations
that are best left in private. But I've even in
the last two years, especially after I saw what's happened
to women's rights in this country, I've reached out to
friends of friends that I never would have known before,
even in Silicon Valley, and have gone and had a
number of coffees and teas to try and get their
(16:57):
perspective of what's going on, Where are you investing, how
how are you thinking about our democracy? So that's been
actually another growth point for me, even to do that
reach out, but also to hear their ideas and what
they're thinking about what they're funding, and then some of
us will start to co invest together.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
You were high school valedictorian, You're the only woman in
your class. At Microsoft, you impressed one of the smartest
men in the world, and yet you still at times
felt like an impostor. Is there something that you say
to yourself to psych yourself up in the morning, because
I want to say it with you because so many
super successful women still feel that way.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, I think we have to look at the root
of why we feel that way. Society is constantly telling
us otherwise. In so many places, we walk in and
there's no one else like us, or you don't see
somebody who's a role model ahead of you, or you
are literally told you don't belong here, or you sit
at a table and people all talk over you. Right.
(17:56):
So society gives us these messages, and we do have
to put back on them. So when I have doubt,
I remind myself don't be quiet. If I start to
feel like I want to be quiet, I have to
think about what happened that made me feel that way,
And remember that's often about somebody else, not about me.
I was actually speaking with one of my daughters very
(18:18):
recently on the phone who got harassed in public in
front of a group of other people, really harassed and bullied,
and her instinct was, in this particular group, I probably
just won't speak up. And I said, m m m
m m m mmm. Let's roll back, let's talk about
what happened here, yet again, let's go through it. And
then I said, you may or may not choose to
(18:40):
speak up in that group, but make sure you don't
fall back. That's what this person wants you to do.
They're trying to silence, you lean forward and figure out
where else to use your voice or how to take
your anger about that situation and fuel something else, fuel
your work.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, so much of the world defined you not based
on who you are, but who you were married to.
Did the pressure on Bill or Microsoft and you ever
make you feel alone or stuck?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, I didn't define myself that way, so I knew
who I was, I knew how I was all along.
So I think, you know, there were times I felt pressure,
but I think that was mostly maybe right after we
got married, and certainly after Jen was born. And here
I was, all of a sudden, living in this gigantic
(19:32):
house that I didn't particularly like, behind a gate, and
I realized, oh no, no, no, I need to really
nurture my friendships because that is where I'm going to
be able to make sure that I'm true to myself
and who I am and if I am scared to
use my voice or to speak out or I'm look.
I was learning all new things, everything I learned at
(19:53):
the Foundation. I don't have a background in global health
or biology. I'm a computer scientist, so it was hard
to sit in rooms of male scientists, all male scientists
at times, but I could turn to my friends and
they would remind me, no, no, no, no, you got this.
You're smart enough to figure this out. Yeah, you were
nervous last time, but you went here, you know. Or
(20:14):
they would send me an encouraging word. And that's what
I think friends do for one another, male and female.
But I've particularly leaned on my female friends.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I know the book is about the next day, getting
to the next day, but sometimes you have to look
back to be able to move forward. What was it
that made you ultimately say I need to get out
of this marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah. The details about that will remain between Bill and
me and our kids. That was a very painful time
for all five of us, and I think it deserves
privacy as many people who've gone through divorce. No, it's
rarely one thing that happens. It's a series of things
over time. And so the only reason I even wrote
(20:54):
about that in the book was because people did know
it was public that I had gone through, and I
thought it would be disingenuous not to include something about that.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah. Well, Bills out with his memoir now too, and
he said that the dissolution of your marriage is his
biggest regret what was your reaction to that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It is sad that the behavior that happened led to
the dissolution of our marriage. It was the behavior, and
you have to change your behavior to be able to
be in a trusting intimate relationship. And if that can't
happen over time and you've given many chances, then there
are consequences.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Right What about you, like, did you let go of
any dreams along the way?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Sure, the day I got married, I dreamt I was
going to be married for my whole life. That is
not That's not something you let go of easily. So
I had to really think and feel through that decision.
And again, I think many people who go through divorce
don't expect on the day they get married that they
will be divorced. It's a very sad thing. I wouldn't
(21:57):
wish it on anybody. But the thing that I knew
and that some people could hold out perspective for me,
is I was going to be happier on the other side.
It might take time and I would have to rebuild
some things, but I am happy. And that's what I
say about transitions in the book, is it's really important
not to go from ending one thing a job, leaving
(22:19):
college and just jump to the next thing. There are
things to learn in that in between space, and I
feel like I spent a lot of time in that
in between space because there were lessons I wanted to
learn and growth I could do myself.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Right, Change is an interesting thing and learning is an
interesting thing. Like would you have changed a thing when
you look back, would you change a thing?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I would have let go of perfectionism much earlier. I
would have been more relaxed. I think for my kids
it would have been easier at their younger years, So yeah,
I would have changed that if I could.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
You know, you talked a little bit about how you
broke up, you got put together, you broke up, you
got back together. Like, how do you know for the
people out there, men and women who feel stuck in
a marriage, how do you know when it's too hard?
How hard is too hard?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I don't think I can answer that for other people.
I think people have to find it in themselves and
know what's right for them. Because our circumstances aren't all
the same right, and different things happen in different marriages.
We never ever know what really goes on inside somebody
else's marriage that I know.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, that's the last question about this, but it's a
good one. You didn't sign a prenup, which surprised me,
and so you had to negotiate with someone who faced
down the Justice Department. I feel like you learn a
lot about someone in a negotiation. Who were you in
that negotiation? What did you learn and did you get
what you wanted?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I learned to surround myself with great people, and I
do that in my life. I do that in my work.
And I surrounded myself with a team who had my back,
and I learned a lot in the process. We'll just
leave it there, Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
When you worked at Microsoft, you had this project called
Microsoft Bob. I wonder if it was ahead of its time, right,
because it was software that would make computers easier to use.
And now we're moving into this era of AI and
agents doing everything for us. Like, what is life like
in a world where AI agents do everything for us?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh? Gosh, I think it's gonna help us learn more quickly,
move through our days more efficiently. I mean, some of
those early concepts in Bob are actually starting to come
to fruition now. So the thing that people always like
to make fun of is Clippy. You know Clippy?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, oh remember Clippy. Yes. Clippy actually was one of
the early agents that came up in Publisher and then Bob.
So while Publisher was a success, while Bob was not
because we didn't have enough compute power, the idea of
an agent was really there. And those are some of
the concepts I see taking off now. While that one
(24:59):
happened to be particularly annoying, although it has a fan
base on the other side, I understand. But that concept
that you didn't have to start, I mean, we used
to sit down at a computer and graphical using interface
was a blank piece of paper. Before that, it was
a blank screen when you sat down at your word processor,
whereas now you know you start with form. Well, now
(25:20):
you talk to your AI agent about okay, help me
write a resume. Here are the ten things I want
to put in it, and it formulates it. You help
it reformulate it asks you questions. You ask it questions,
and you know, you're so much more efficient than starting
with a blank piece of paper to write your resume.
I don't know about you, but I remember doing that.
It was a big, daunting task.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But so how does life change dat we're all going
to have our own personal AIS.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I think someday we will mm hmm, yeah, And I
think personal is the key thing. It needs to be
personal to us and our data doesn't need to be
shared with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
What's your advice to kids today? Should they still learn
how to code? Or will AI do everything for us?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Well? I think AI is going to do a fair
bit going forward. But I still think there's value in
learning to code. Like, I don't know about you, but
I still learned to tell the time even though we
were in a digital age, right, I think there's absolutely
value and there's creativity in coding as well, and for
your own mind, you're learning logic, right, So I definitely
(26:20):
tell kids it's still a great place to go.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Women aren't only represented in the people who are building AI,
they're underrepresented in the people who are using AI. What
are the consequences of that?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
They'll get left behind in certain ways in society. I
don't know. My female friends and I are all using AI.
I mean, it's kind of like, why wouldn't I use AI?
In fact, we joke about the fact. One of my
friends and I were joking we're on a walk yesterday
with two other friends and this one friend and I
worked at Microsoft, and it was like, so, what version
are you on of chat GPT? We are just trying
(26:52):
to stay up with the leading edge so that we
aren't left behind in society. I'm sixty years old, but
anyone come up in society ought to be using AI.
Students ought to be using AI. They will learn more
deeply and better. One of the things I love about
AI is that explains the concepts to you. It's not
just giving you the answer, You're learning the concepts.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm using it all day, every day, so I hope
it doesn't make me stupider because I'm like, really need
it right now. I think it makes me more productive.
That's where I've met it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I think it makes you more productive. But also I
don't know about you, but I'm asking it all the
time questions about nature and society. I go to a
low income country and I can immediately learn where does
their GDP come from? What are the income streams, what
are the outflows, what's the population? I can compare countries.
When I used to travel to so many places in Africa,
(27:42):
I used to have to take a piece of paper
and somebody had to put those stats together for me beforehand.
Now I just ask Chad Gpt.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
What do you make of the tech billionaires lining up
behind President Trump and Silicon Valley's right turn.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I think there are there's certainly reasons that that has happened.
But all I can say is I'm not going to
comment on other people's values, but I will say this
that in these times, I always believe we should live
our own values, and that it's important to speak our
truth and our own values in society. And yet what
(28:17):
I have seen in the last six months to a
year is many people who used to say one thing
have absolutely shifted over here. And so I say to myself, well,
what are their values? Right? And look, a democracy is
made up by our beliefs and our investments and our values,
(28:37):
and we, of all times right now should be living
those values out, not pivoting to what some comms person
tells us is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The Make Men Great Again movement? What's your take on that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I don't ever like anything that pitts women versus men,
or men versus women. That's not healthy for society. The
truth is there are many great men in society, and
there are many great women in society. We need to
support both so that they both get to where they
want to be in society and can thrive. We are
seeing more girls graduate from college, so we do need
(29:12):
to be making more investments in boys. We also need
to be looking at why are young boys saying I
don't know what my future role is in society. I
look at the mental health statistics for girls and boys,
and I say, Wow, there's a lot of work to do.
So there's just no reason to pit one against the other.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Elon Musk and Doge, how do you feel about one man,
a billionaire, having that much independent power within the federal government.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, it's unprecedented, for sure. We haven't seen it before, right,
and again, I can speak at great length about USAID
and the work they have done in the world that
keeps peace and prosperity in the world. And so to
have anyone come in and say, you know, we're just
(30:04):
gonna wipe it out like that, that makes no sense
to me.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I have three boys and a girl. Yeah, which we
talked about. We talked about responsibilities to our daughters and
to our sons. There's a generation of boys coming up
that statistics show are less likely to go to college,
are more likely to feel alone, feel their opportunities are
slipping away. What do you think is going on there
and what can we do about it?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well? I think we need to make investments in those boys.
They need more role models. It can be a good coach,
it can be a teacher at school if there's no
dad in the home. If there is a dad, great,
But we need to come together and really deeply understand
what's going on with our boys. There's been some good
research on this, but further I think needs to be done.
(30:52):
But people like Richard Reeves or Gary Barker, they are
coming up with ways to support boys so that they
can figure out good roles through society, ways that they
want to be in society.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I mean, I appreciate that you're still speaking up about women.
You know, as we talked about I wrote a book
called Protopia back in the day. It does seem like
the conversation about women making strides has gone very quiet.
I wish there was just something that we could all
get behind together. Why do you think that is? Are
we scared? Is it cancel culture? What happened to our voices?
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't think the voices are gone. But sometimes when
you are strategizing and you're figuring out where you go next,
like geopolitically, things have changed massively in the last few months, massively,
So how we strategize and where we make investments and
where we use our voices? Just give a little time.
(31:52):
I hope you're right. I hope you're right. The best
answer is not always the quickest answer. Yeah right, I mean,
look at the work no Elson Mandelatid. Look how long
that took. It took a very long time, but the
resistance was there all the way through, and eventually it
(32:12):
came to fruition. So it's not always first mover or
first speaker that has the advantage. Sometimes it's the person
who quietly strategizes.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Well, let's take a look at the quick answer, the
pullback of DEI, the rollback of DEI. How's that going
to be written in the history books?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Not favorably. I do not think favorly. Again, you have
to look at society. Who's in society right now? And
does our democracy, do our state legislatures and does our
Senate and does our Congress look like society? And the
answer is no, we don't have enough Native Americans Asians,
(32:49):
Black people, we don't have enough women, so we have
to all be pushing to make sure that we have
good representation in all of those places and culture. So
the stories that we tell the movies, we know that
affects people. And the reason you need to have all
of society represented in the legislature, in any governing body
(33:12):
is because they make good policy based on their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You recently turned sixty. Yeah, mommy at sixty, grandmommy at sixty.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
What's that like? It's a joy, you know, as my
adult children are truly adults now, they need you less
or they need me less. So I certainly talk to them,
I certainly see them, but you know, there's way less
of the day to day that doesn't exist anymore, so
it gives me more time. And then my granddaughters are
on the other side of the country, but I try
(33:44):
to see them every six weeks. And it is absolutely
delightful to have little ones again that you can run
around the yard with, go down the slide, even when
you don't think you want to go down the slide,
you know, get on the outdoor trampoline. It's a delight
dating it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
What's that like?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Fabulous? Much better than I thought, much better. Good.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
You should be enjoying yourself. People love hearing about the
habits of great leaders. What's one of your daily rituals
or a habit that helps you be a great leader?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Well, I often try to do something somewhat difficult in
the morning. So whether that's in the gym via exercise,
or whether I've been going in the cold plunge now
for almost a decade and how long can you go
and stay in it? If you've done something hard in
the morning, it tends to make the rest of your
day feel, at least for me, less hard. And then
(34:39):
the other thing I would say is just I really
work and have worked in the last twenty years to
surround myself with people who will tell me the truth,
be candid even when I may not want to hear it.
But also just are good people. Smart people for sure.
I like high intellect, high IQ, but just good values
(35:01):
and it just makes everything easier. You know, you build
trust over time. You can count on people, they can
rely on you, you can rely on them. I can
be more vulnerable with them, which is nice because you know,
not every day is a fabulous day, right, And so
sometimes you come in a little cranky and you kind
of just need to say that to people around, like,
give me a little grace today because I may not
be my best.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Melinda Frenchgates three point zero. What is the next chapter
that hasn't been written?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Who knows? I am so excited. I mean, I think,
certainly at least another decade of work, you know, making
sure that women step into their full power. I hope
more grandkids, but I don't want to put any pressure
on my kids. And then we'll see from there.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, well, what do you want from the next decade?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Like for you, I just want to live my life
the way I'm living it right now, which is I'm happy.
I feel like I'm flourishing. I feel like my family
and friends know that I love them, I know they
love me, and I just want a whole lot more
of that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Thank you, Oh my gosh, there were so many times
when you're speaking that I honestly I welled up because
I feel like I feel like women have been silent
and I am really grateful, honestly liked that you are
speaking up.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Use your voice to thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
I will try.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I will try.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It is hard to use your woe. All have to
use our voice and our platforms and our resources, any
of those three or all of them, whatever we've got,
it's going to take all of us and like minded men.
There's so many great like minded men, and so it's
just like, just because the loudest voices are trying to
silence us, we should not be silent for exactly that reason.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, thank you for speaking up and for using your voice.
Thank you, Thanks Emily, Thanks so much for listening to
this edition of the Circuit. You can catch the full
episode on Bloomberg Originals. I'm Emily Chang, follow me on
x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. And you can
watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or
(37:09):
streaming on the Bloomberg Gap or YouTube and let us
know what you think by leaving a review. Those extra reviews,
they really make a difference. I'm your host and executive producer.
Our senior producer is Lauren Ellis. Our associate producer is
Heather Glover Huang. Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks so
much for listening.
I'm Emily Chang, and this is the podcast version of
The Circuit, my show on Bloomberg Originals. Today we're taking
you to Seattle, Washington to meet Melinda French Gates. She's
the famed billionaire, philanthropist, investor, and a champion for gender equality, education, health,
and human rights around the globe. Melinda is one of
the world's most powerful women and became a driving force
(00:24):
of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but she was
often publicly defined by her marriage to the man behind
the Microsoft Empire. Now she's stepping into a new spotlight
that's unapologetically her own. I wanted to get a sense
of the Melinda behind the headlines, the Melinda before the Gates,
and travel with her to a special place in Seattle
where it all began, when she was just Melinda French
(00:46):
starting a new job at this little company called Microsoft.
We've met a few times over the years, when you
were married to Bill and the foundation was humming. We
spoke during the pandemic, when now that I read your book,
you are hiding this separation, and now that you've written
your memoir, I feel like the world knows you as
Melinda Gates, but who is Melinda French Gates.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I am the person that I write about in the book.
You know, I have a lot of friends in Seattle,
male and female. I like to do puzzles. I'm intense
at times. I like to have a lot of fun too.
I love to travel, and probably the best kind of
trip is where I'm learning something and or I'm getting
to exercise as part of the trip, you know, hiking
(01:31):
or biking or jogging, all of those things.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
In the book you talk about you always knew you
wanted to be a working mom, and you know, as
we talked about Unlash, I had this power career, big
tech and risen up in management. What was the transition
like to leave work and be a mom full time
and let that go?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It was something I definitely wanted. Because I was having
this baby, I got pretty clamsy, so I was bed
ridden a little earlier than I thought. I had to
leave work suddenly. But I was planning to leave Microsoft,
and really that had a lot to do with Bill
was the CEO and traveling all over the world and
to have the family life we wanted to have. I
felt like I wanted to be home, but it was
(02:13):
really hard on me. So much harder than I expected.
I moved to a house that was very large, behind
a much bigger git. I have this new little baby
who I adore and love. But you know, I don't
have my career anymore. I'm not around all these hard
charging people intellectual topics. So I had to learn over
time how to rebuild that for myself through my friendships,
(02:36):
and also start doing some board work so I could
stay engaged.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
One of the pieces of advice in your book that
I love is you talk about not needing to be
a perfect parent, but a good enough parent. Can you
explain that?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Yeah, I wrote about that because it's a concept I
didn't learn till my kids were in middle school, and
I wish I had learned earlier. I'd always been this perfectionist,
and that's not always a good thing, right, especially as
you're a mom. And so when I finally learned this
concept that children need one good enough parent and they're
(03:08):
going to be okay, I could let my guard down,
because there is no such thing as a perfect parent, right.
But I had some mythical perfect mom in my head.
And once I thought about and read the concept of
the perfect parent, someone explained it to me. I thought, why,
I am certainly a good enough parent these kids, They're
going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Warren Buffett pulled you back to work when he gave
thirty billion dollars to the Bill and the lind Of
Gates Foundation, which you ran together for twenty five years.
What was it that made you say I need to
let this go and step back from that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, leaving the Foundation was something that weighed very heavily
on me. I wanted to be very thoughtful if I left,
but it became just clear to me that the US
was changing very rapidly before our eyes, that women's rights
were being rolled back, and that I had a lot
(04:02):
of work ahead of me that I wanted to do
on that and to use my voice behind. And I
also felt like the Foundation was in a really good place.
It has a board now. Mark Susman's been in the
CEO role. He's fantastic. So I felt like it was
a time I could leave to now emphasize and focus
more on the US. I'm doing both domestic and global
(04:24):
work at Pivotal Ventures on Behalf of Women, but I'm
doing more domestic work given the times we're in.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Pivotal is now the center of all your work. You're
making all of these bets, these gifts, doing all this
research on your own. What are you saying that you
can do differently given your social capital and your economic power.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, it's much the same as what I did at
the Foundation. But I can use my voice completely and
fully in whatever way I want and use my resources.
I don't have to go to a board, I don't
have to go to a partner to decide right, and
so I'm using every tool in my toolbox, whether that's advocacy,
whether that's philanthropy, whether that's investments, because I think all
(05:04):
of those things are needed if we're going to really
advance women to their rightful place in society.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
President Trump pulled the US out of the World Health Organization,
cutting back on scientific research, medical research, foreign aid. How
is President Trump and these actions, how is this impacting
the philanthropic world. I understand that there's quite a sense
of urgency.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
There's an enormous sense of urgency. Just take USAID alone.
That is something that has been in place for a
long time that both Republican and Democratic presidents supported, and
there was a reason for it, a logical reason, which is,
if people can be healthy and have peace and prosper
where they are, they will want to stay there. And
(05:48):
so the cuts in USAID alone, sixteen point nine million
women will not get maternal health services. Think about what
that means to lose a mom in childbirth and she's
already got children at home. I mean, you're going to
devastate some of these communities. People are going hungry because
of those cuts. And what I know from meeting so
(06:12):
many families and so many low income countries around the
world is those grants made a difference in their health
and in their well being and in them being able
to pull themselves out of poverty. As Americans, is that
what we want? Do we want to create more crises
around the world or do we want peace and prosperity
(06:34):
for others so they can live where they are?
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So, how are you changing your giving strategy as a
result of what you're seeing.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, there's no amount of philanthropy, none, that can fill
in for the loss from the US government. And I
think the thing people need to most understand is that
was less than one percent, far less than one percent
of the US government budget. So philanthropy can't fill that whole.
What I can do is fund others who are also
(07:04):
working in those communities to lift people up. But make
no mistake, the US has built infrastructure around the world,
the labs around the world that report diseases so we
know about them before they come to our own country.
All of that infrastructure will crumble, all of it. And
so to me, there's no logical sense. There's a logical
(07:27):
sense for saying, maybe there's some places where there was
waste or there was fat, maybe we need to cut
ten percent or fifteen percent. But a good manager looks
at that and looks at it carefully before they make
cuts like that.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
It's not just science, it's potentially the Department of Education.
What does this mean for America?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
We don't know yet. We haven't run this particular experiment yet.
But what I know is that we've had a healthy
and thriving democracy. We've had problems around the edges of it,
and definitely I'm the first one to tell you it
needs fine tuning. But to wipe out the Department of Education, now,
how is that good for students? You could decide you
(08:08):
want to do a bit more at the state level.
A lot of what happens is at the state level,
but there needs to be some guidance from the top, right,
So why would you wipe out the whole Department of Education?
How does that benefit students? We need to think about
the end result of who's benefiting from these kinds of things,
and is that the chaos that we want.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
The critics of philanthropy say it's been astonishingly ineffective at
solving societal problems. That giving has increased, but problems have
gotten worse. There's a lot of critiques actually of billionaire philanthropy.
What's fair and what's not well.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I would beg to differ on some of the philanthropy
we know. Millions of people are alive because of the
life saving vaccines that have been developed and given around
the world the Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. Moms and
dads uds in low income countries line up to get
measles vaccines for their children because you know what a
(09:06):
measle's outbreak in their community means that kids die. So
millions of children alive because of that. The President's Emergency
Plan for AIDS relief, started by George W. Bush that
has saved millions of lives. The rate of deaths of
HIV have come down over the years, the number of
(09:26):
children dying of malaria has come down. So has all
of philanthropy been great? No? But has some of it?
And can we measure some of it? You bet we can.
And philanthropy is only one tool in the toolbox. Philanthropy
can take a risk that we wouldn't want government to
(09:47):
take with our taxpayer funding, but it can prove things
out at scale, and then governments can come in to
scale that up. So it takes philanthropy, it takes civil society,
takes government, it takes private sector. But there are large
societal problems that are left behind that things like capitalism
doesn't solve. And as Warren Buffett says, those are the
(10:09):
hard problems left behind, and philanthropy goes and tries and
does their best to tackle those.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Speaking of measuring things, you, Bill and Warren started the
Giving Pledge to encourage people to give away the majority
of their wealth. Some people think it's inspiring, but it's
all taught. There's no accountability. Are you tracking it and
is it working?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
We are tracking it to the extent we can. I mean,
it's hard to know for sure if a particular philanthropist,
if they choose to increase their giving next year. Are
they necessarily going to give the giving pledge credit? Not necessarily.
But what I do know is that a lot of
the philanthropists have learned from one another and they'll get
inspired by another philanthropist and then get going. Not everybody
(10:50):
in the group, but some for sure.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Some good news. Women are actually coming into a lot
more money. There's a huge generational wealth transfer happening. More
women are making money at work. If women control more
money globally, how could that change society?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I think it would change. It will change society fundamentally,
especially if women control the money and can spend it
the way they want. We have good global research that
shows in most countries around the world, low and middle income,
when a woman gets an extra equivalent of a dollar
in her hand, she spends it on her children and
on her family, and she spends it on medications for
(11:29):
her children. So women make different investments versus men. I
also think when women control more resources, they will fund
other women's businesses because they'll say, oh, yes, we need
a new one of those, and the husband may not
see it, or the man may not see it just
because nothing's wrong. He just has a different lens on society,
(11:49):
and so to me, it's profound when women can control resources,
and you're seeing it more in the United States. You're
seeing more women in the middle class working, saving money.
I mean, seventy seven million women in this country work,
and of most families that have kids in the United States,
(12:12):
sixty seven percent of them both parents work. There's a
reason for that. They're trying to get ahead as a family.
They're trying to support their kids with a good education.
And the truth is all over the world. When I've
talked to moms and dads in all kinds of countries
in Africa or Bangladesh or in India, they all hope
and dream the same thing we do for our kids,
(12:34):
which is a better future for their children.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Still, women's rights are under threat. What advice to you
giving to your own daughters right now?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Use your voice, use your voice, learn, learn deeply, and
to the extent you're ready, start using some of your
resources on that. And I couldn't be more proud of
both my daughters and my son for really learning about
the issues and even making visits on the ground.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
What advice are you giving your son?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Keep going, keep doing what you're doing. He has always
believed in women's rights. He also believes strongly in our democracy.
And I learned from all three of my kids, but he,
of the three of them, probably the most is the
one that helps keep me educated sending me articles. Have
you considered this? Think about this other point of view? Mom?
(13:24):
I know this is your point of view, but think
about this other one.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Interesting, you voted for both Democratic and Republican candidates. You
endorsed Kamala Harris for president, which I believe is the
first time you've ever endorsed a presidential candidate. What do
you hope happens between now and the next election, Like,
is there a room of influential people somewhere trying to
figure out how to empower the next generation of candidates.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I hope that in the midterm elections and the elections
that come after that four years from now, that we
have a lot more female candidates and a lot more
candidates the color because when you get women into state legislatures,
when you get them into our Congress, when you get
them into parliament, when you get people of color in
those positions, they create different policy for society because of
(14:12):
their lens on society. And so what I know is
that we need more people in state houses. There's seven
thousand seats at state houses, and we need more people
in Congress that look like us.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Women do things differently. As we've been discussing Mackenzie Scott,
I'm curious what you think of her style of giving.
She's known for this more sort of no strings attached approach,
just give people money and see what they do with it,
whereas the Gates Foundation has historically been more sort of
data driven and strategic. What do you think of her
style of giving.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I think it's fantastic for her for where she is
and what she wants to accomplish. She is living her
values out in society. She writes about her values and
then she lives her values through her giving. She's not
just giving to any organization out there. She's giving to
organization that she thinks are changing society and who are effective.
(15:04):
And I think that's phenomenal good for her. I wish
more people would put their money where their mouth is right.
I mean, we look at billionaires today. They're incredibly privileged,
just like I'm privileged. They should be giving more away,
They should be more doing more with their own wealth
to change society. If you are lucky enough to have
(15:26):
started a company or been born in this country, you
benefited from this country and you should be giving back.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I know you're friends with her. I'm curious how she's
influenced you. Did you reach out to her as you
were trying to figure out how to leave your marriage
and then the foundation.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
She is a very private person and she deserves to
keep her privacy. But I will just say we had
children when they were younger, in and out of the
same school, and so we crossed paths during that time.
And then I would say probably the last eight years
we've formed even more of a friendship. She's had a
(16:02):
little more time as some of her kids go off
to college, so have I, and so we have just
a really nice, candid, supportive friendship. And I'm so grateful
for that.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Thank you for sharing that. I know that she's very private,
you know, I think about this question because men are
so well networked and seem to be helping each other
all the time, and I want that for women too.
Do you have relationships you know, is there like a
group of power women chat with you and McKenzie and
Lorraine and Priscilla, Like, do you trade notes? About how
(16:33):
to navigate this life.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Absolutely some of us definitely do, and those are conversations
that are best left in private. But I've even in
the last two years, especially after I saw what's happened
to women's rights in this country, I've reached out to
friends of friends that I never would have known before,
even in Silicon Valley, and have gone and had a
number of coffees and teas to try and get their
(16:57):
perspective of what's going on, Where are you investing, how
how are you thinking about our democracy? So that's been
actually another growth point for me, even to do that
reach out, but also to hear their ideas and what
they're thinking about what they're funding, and then some of
us will start to co invest together.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
You were high school valedictorian, You're the only woman in
your class. At Microsoft, you impressed one of the smartest
men in the world, and yet you still at times
felt like an impostor. Is there something that you say
to yourself to psych yourself up in the morning, because
I want to say it with you because so many
super successful women still feel that way.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Yeah, I think we have to look at the root
of why we feel that way. Society is constantly telling
us otherwise. In so many places, we walk in and
there's no one else like us, or you don't see
somebody who's a role model ahead of you, or you
are literally told you don't belong here, or you sit
at a table and people all talk over you. Right.
(17:56):
So society gives us these messages, and we do have
to put back on them. So when I have doubt,
I remind myself don't be quiet. If I start to
feel like I want to be quiet, I have to
think about what happened that made me feel that way,
And remember that's often about somebody else, not about me.
I was actually speaking with one of my daughters very
(18:18):
recently on the phone who got harassed in public in
front of a group of other people, really harassed and bullied,
and her instinct was, in this particular group, I probably
just won't speak up. And I said, m m m
m m m mmm. Let's roll back, let's talk about
what happened here, yet again, let's go through it. And
then I said, you may or may not choose to
(18:40):
speak up in that group, but make sure you don't
fall back. That's what this person wants you to do.
They're trying to silence, you lean forward and figure out
where else to use your voice or how to take
your anger about that situation and fuel something else, fuel
your work.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, so much of the world defined you not based
on who you are, but who you were married to.
Did the pressure on Bill or Microsoft and you ever
make you feel alone or stuck?
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, I didn't define myself that way, so I knew
who I was, I knew how I was all along.
So I think, you know, there were times I felt pressure,
but I think that was mostly maybe right after we
got married, and certainly after Jen was born. And here
I was, all of a sudden, living in this gigantic
(19:32):
house that I didn't particularly like, behind a gate, and
I realized, oh no, no, no, I need to really
nurture my friendships because that is where I'm going to
be able to make sure that I'm true to myself
and who I am and if I am scared to
use my voice or to speak out or I'm look.
I was learning all new things, everything I learned at
(19:53):
the Foundation. I don't have a background in global health
or biology. I'm a computer scientist, so it was hard
to sit in rooms of male scientists, all male scientists
at times, but I could turn to my friends and
they would remind me, no, no, no, no, you got this.
You're smart enough to figure this out. Yeah, you were
nervous last time, but you went here, you know. Or
(20:14):
they would send me an encouraging word. And that's what
I think friends do for one another, male and female.
But I've particularly leaned on my female friends.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I know the book is about the next day, getting
to the next day, but sometimes you have to look
back to be able to move forward. What was it
that made you ultimately say I need to get out
of this marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah. The details about that will remain between Bill and
me and our kids. That was a very painful time
for all five of us, and I think it deserves
privacy as many people who've gone through divorce. No, it's
rarely one thing that happens. It's a series of things
over time. And so the only reason I even wrote
(20:54):
about that in the book was because people did know
it was public that I had gone through, and I
thought it would be disingenuous not to include something about that.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah. Well, Bills out with his memoir now too, and
he said that the dissolution of your marriage is his
biggest regret what was your reaction to that.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
It is sad that the behavior that happened led to
the dissolution of our marriage. It was the behavior, and
you have to change your behavior to be able to
be in a trusting intimate relationship. And if that can't
happen over time and you've given many chances, then there
are consequences.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Right What about you, like, did you let go of
any dreams along the way?
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Sure, the day I got married, I dreamt I was
going to be married for my whole life. That is
not That's not something you let go of easily. So
I had to really think and feel through that decision.
And again, I think many people who go through divorce
don't expect on the day they get married that they
will be divorced. It's a very sad thing. I wouldn't
(21:57):
wish it on anybody. But the thing that I knew
and that some people could hold out perspective for me,
is I was going to be happier on the other side.
It might take time and I would have to rebuild
some things, but I am happy. And that's what I
say about transitions in the book, is it's really important
not to go from ending one thing a job, leaving
(22:19):
college and just jump to the next thing. There are
things to learn in that in between space, and I
feel like I spent a lot of time in that
in between space because there were lessons I wanted to
learn and growth I could do myself.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Right, Change is an interesting thing and learning is an
interesting thing. Like would you have changed a thing when
you look back, would you change a thing?
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I would have let go of perfectionism much earlier. I
would have been more relaxed. I think for my kids
it would have been easier at their younger years, So yeah,
I would have changed that if I could.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
You know, you talked a little bit about how you
broke up, you got put together, you broke up, you
got back together. Like, how do you know for the
people out there, men and women who feel stuck in
a marriage, how do you know when it's too hard?
How hard is too hard?
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I don't think I can answer that for other people.
I think people have to find it in themselves and
know what's right for them. Because our circumstances aren't all
the same right, and different things happen in different marriages.
We never ever know what really goes on inside somebody
else's marriage that I know.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, that's the last question about this, but it's a
good one. You didn't sign a prenup, which surprised me,
and so you had to negotiate with someone who faced
down the Justice Department. I feel like you learn a
lot about someone in a negotiation. Who were you in
that negotiation? What did you learn and did you get
what you wanted?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
I learned to surround myself with great people, and I
do that in my life. I do that in my work.
And I surrounded myself with a team who had my back,
and I learned a lot in the process. We'll just
leave it there, Okay.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
When you worked at Microsoft, you had this project called
Microsoft Bob. I wonder if it was ahead of its time, right,
because it was software that would make computers easier to use.
And now we're moving into this era of AI and
agents doing everything for us. Like, what is life like
in a world where AI agents do everything for us?
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Oh? Gosh, I think it's gonna help us learn more quickly,
move through our days more efficiently. I mean, some of
those early concepts in Bob are actually starting to come
to fruition now. So the thing that people always like
to make fun of is Clippy. You know Clippy?
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yes, oh remember Clippy. Yes. Clippy actually was one of
the early agents that came up in Publisher and then Bob.
So while Publisher was a success, while Bob was not
because we didn't have enough compute power, the idea of
an agent was really there. And those are some of
the concepts I see taking off now. While that one
(24:59):
happened to be particularly annoying, although it has a fan
base on the other side, I understand. But that concept
that you didn't have to start, I mean, we used
to sit down at a computer and graphical using interface
was a blank piece of paper. Before that, it was
a blank screen when you sat down at your word processor,
whereas now you know you start with form. Well, now
(25:20):
you talk to your AI agent about okay, help me
write a resume. Here are the ten things I want
to put in it, and it formulates it. You help
it reformulate it asks you questions. You ask it questions,
and you know, you're so much more efficient than starting
with a blank piece of paper to write your resume.
I don't know about you, but I remember doing that.
It was a big, daunting task.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
But so how does life change dat we're all going
to have our own personal AIS.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I think someday we will mm hmm, yeah, And I
think personal is the key thing. It needs to be
personal to us and our data doesn't need to be
shared with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
What's your advice to kids today? Should they still learn
how to code? Or will AI do everything for us?
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Well? I think AI is going to do a fair
bit going forward. But I still think there's value in
learning to code. Like, I don't know about you, but
I still learned to tell the time even though we
were in a digital age, right, I think there's absolutely
value and there's creativity in coding as well, and for
your own mind, you're learning logic, right, So I definitely
(26:20):
tell kids it's still a great place to go.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Women aren't only represented in the people who are building AI,
they're underrepresented in the people who are using AI. What
are the consequences of that?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
They'll get left behind in certain ways in society. I
don't know. My female friends and I are all using AI.
I mean, it's kind of like, why wouldn't I use AI?
In fact, we joke about the fact. One of my
friends and I were joking we're on a walk yesterday
with two other friends and this one friend and I
worked at Microsoft, and it was like, so, what version
are you on of chat GPT? We are just trying
(26:52):
to stay up with the leading edge so that we
aren't left behind in society. I'm sixty years old, but
anyone come up in society ought to be using AI.
Students ought to be using AI. They will learn more
deeply and better. One of the things I love about
AI is that explains the concepts to you. It's not
just giving you the answer, You're learning the concepts.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I'm using it all day, every day, so I hope
it doesn't make me stupider because I'm like, really need
it right now. I think it makes me more productive.
That's where I've met it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I think it makes you more productive. But also I
don't know about you, but I'm asking it all the
time questions about nature and society. I go to a
low income country and I can immediately learn where does
their GDP come from? What are the income streams, what
are the outflows, what's the population? I can compare countries.
When I used to travel to so many places in Africa,
(27:42):
I used to have to take a piece of paper
and somebody had to put those stats together for me beforehand.
Now I just ask Chad Gpt.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
What do you make of the tech billionaires lining up
behind President Trump and Silicon Valley's right turn.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
I think there are there's certainly reasons that that has happened.
But all I can say is I'm not going to
comment on other people's values, but I will say this
that in these times, I always believe we should live
our own values, and that it's important to speak our
truth and our own values in society. And yet what
(28:17):
I have seen in the last six months to a
year is many people who used to say one thing
have absolutely shifted over here. And so I say to myself, well,
what are their values? Right? And look, a democracy is
made up by our beliefs and our investments and our values,
(28:37):
and we, of all times right now should be living
those values out, not pivoting to what some comms person
tells us is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The Make Men Great Again movement? What's your take on that.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
I don't ever like anything that pitts women versus men,
or men versus women. That's not healthy for society. The
truth is there are many great men in society, and
there are many great women in society. We need to
support both so that they both get to where they
want to be in society and can thrive. We are
seeing more girls graduate from college, so we do need
(29:12):
to be making more investments in boys. We also need
to be looking at why are young boys saying I
don't know what my future role is in society. I
look at the mental health statistics for girls and boys,
and I say, Wow, there's a lot of work to do.
So there's just no reason to pit one against the other.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Elon Musk and Doge, how do you feel about one man,
a billionaire, having that much independent power within the federal government.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Well, it's unprecedented, for sure. We haven't seen it before, right,
and again, I can speak at great length about USAID
and the work they have done in the world that
keeps peace and prosperity in the world. And so to
have anyone come in and say, you know, we're just
(30:04):
gonna wipe it out like that, that makes no sense
to me.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
I have three boys and a girl. Yeah, which we
talked about. We talked about responsibilities to our daughters and
to our sons. There's a generation of boys coming up
that statistics show are less likely to go to college,
are more likely to feel alone, feel their opportunities are
slipping away. What do you think is going on there
and what can we do about it?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Well? I think we need to make investments in those boys.
They need more role models. It can be a good coach,
it can be a teacher at school if there's no
dad in the home. If there is a dad, great,
But we need to come together and really deeply understand
what's going on with our boys. There's been some good
research on this, but further I think needs to be done.
(30:52):
But people like Richard Reeves or Gary Barker, they are
coming up with ways to support boys so that they
can figure out good roles through society, ways that they
want to be in society.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I mean, I appreciate that you're still speaking up about women.
You know, as we talked about I wrote a book
called Protopia back in the day. It does seem like
the conversation about women making strides has gone very quiet.
I wish there was just something that we could all
get behind together. Why do you think that is? Are
we scared? Is it cancel culture? What happened to our voices?
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I don't think the voices are gone. But sometimes when
you are strategizing and you're figuring out where you go next,
like geopolitically, things have changed massively in the last few months, massively,
So how we strategize and where we make investments and
where we use our voices? Just give a little time.
(31:52):
I hope you're right. I hope you're right. The best
answer is not always the quickest answer. Yeah right, I mean,
look at the work no Elson Mandelatid. Look how long
that took. It took a very long time, but the
resistance was there all the way through, and eventually it
(32:12):
came to fruition. So it's not always first mover or
first speaker that has the advantage. Sometimes it's the person
who quietly strategizes.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Well, let's take a look at the quick answer, the
pullback of DEI, the rollback of DEI. How's that going
to be written in the history books?
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Not favorably. I do not think favorly. Again, you have
to look at society. Who's in society right now? And
does our democracy, do our state legislatures and does our
Senate and does our Congress look like society? And the
answer is no, we don't have enough Native Americans Asians,
(32:49):
Black people, we don't have enough women, so we have
to all be pushing to make sure that we have
good representation in all of those places and culture. So
the stories that we tell the movies, we know that
affects people. And the reason you need to have all
of society represented in the legislature, in any governing body
(33:12):
is because they make good policy based on their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
You recently turned sixty. Yeah, mommy at sixty, grandmommy at sixty.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
What's that like? It's a joy, you know, as my
adult children are truly adults now, they need you less
or they need me less. So I certainly talk to them,
I certainly see them, but you know, there's way less
of the day to day that doesn't exist anymore, so
it gives me more time. And then my granddaughters are
on the other side of the country, but I try
(33:44):
to see them every six weeks. And it is absolutely
delightful to have little ones again that you can run
around the yard with, go down the slide, even when
you don't think you want to go down the slide,
you know, get on the outdoor trampoline. It's a delight
dating it.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
What's that like?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Fabulous? Much better than I thought, much better. Good.
Speaker 1 (34:06):
You should be enjoying yourself. People love hearing about the
habits of great leaders. What's one of your daily rituals
or a habit that helps you be a great leader?
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Well, I often try to do something somewhat difficult in
the morning. So whether that's in the gym via exercise,
or whether I've been going in the cold plunge now
for almost a decade and how long can you go
and stay in it? If you've done something hard in
the morning, it tends to make the rest of your
day feel, at least for me, less hard. And then
(34:39):
the other thing I would say is just I really
work and have worked in the last twenty years to
surround myself with people who will tell me the truth,
be candid even when I may not want to hear it.
But also just are good people. Smart people for sure.
I like high intellect, high IQ, but just good values
(35:01):
and it just makes everything easier. You know, you build
trust over time. You can count on people, they can
rely on you, you can rely on them. I can
be more vulnerable with them, which is nice because you know,
not every day is a fabulous day, right, And so
sometimes you come in a little cranky and you kind
of just need to say that to people around, like,
give me a little grace today because I may not
be my best.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Melinda Frenchgates three point zero. What is the next chapter
that hasn't been written?
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Who knows? I am so excited. I mean, I think,
certainly at least another decade of work, you know, making
sure that women step into their full power. I hope
more grandkids, but I don't want to put any pressure
on my kids. And then we'll see from there.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, well, what do you want from the next decade?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Like for you, I just want to live my life
the way I'm living it right now, which is I'm happy.
I feel like I'm flourishing. I feel like my family
and friends know that I love them, I know they
love me, and I just want a whole lot more
of that. I love that.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Thank you, Oh my gosh, there were so many times
when you're speaking that I honestly I welled up because
I feel like I feel like women have been silent
and I am really grateful, honestly liked that you are
speaking up.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Use your voice to thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
I will try.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I will try.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
It is hard to use your woe. All have to
use our voice and our platforms and our resources, any
of those three or all of them, whatever we've got,
it's going to take all of us and like minded men.
There's so many great like minded men, and so it's
just like, just because the loudest voices are trying to
silence us, we should not be silent for exactly that reason.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Well, thank you for speaking up and for using your voice.
Thank you, Thanks Emily, Thanks so much for listening to
this edition of the Circuit. You can catch the full
episode on Bloomberg Originals. I'm Emily Chang, follow me on
x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. And you can
watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or
(37:09):
streaming on the Bloomberg Gap or YouTube and let us
know what you think by leaving a review. Those extra reviews,
they really make a difference. I'm your host and executive producer.
Our senior producer is Lauren Ellis. Our associate producer is
Heather Glover Huang. Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks so
much for listening.
Host
Emily Chang
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