July 2, 2025 • 48 mins
📍Rut sits down with former Green Beret Clay Martin who reveals the truth about what drove him to the edge—and what pulled him back. From battling Operator Syndrome and suicidal thoughts to discovering the life-saving power of psilocybin, Clay shares his personal story of spiritual awakening, healing, and the founding of a veteran-led church built around sacred warrior traditions.
If you or someone you love has served and is struggling, this conversation could save a life.
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Clay's Intro
00:53 - Operator Syndrome & Veteran Struggles
02:29 - Searching for Solutions
06:16 - Fear of Psychedelics
13:13 - First Mushroom Experience
17:07 - Healing Power of Mushrooms
22:22 - The Barbarian Spirit
29:30 - The Government Is Embracing Psychedelic Research
33:12 - Psilocybin
34:27 - Clay's Program for helping vets
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, everybody, today's show is something that is obviously
very near and dear to my heart. It's a component
of the last twenty plus years in the g WATT
and that's helping our brothers heal from what they've gone through.
And so I really wanted to reach out and bring
(00:21):
on not only one of my favorite shit talkers on
X but also one of the most dedicated guys that's
leading the charge to really make a difference with SOFT
members and their health and improving, and that's Clay Martin.
So Clay, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Man.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm so grateful that you came on.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
David Brother thinks we're having man. I can't thank you
enough for having on here. Man.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is awareness of this issue, what we're going to
do about it now that we actually have a solution,
most important thing in my life.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
All right, let's just back up a little bit. Obviously,
you know when you left service, you know, how long
did it take before you realize that what you were
dealing with was not just you know, old age.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Due to a long long time Actually I was I
was medically retired too, which brings about its own issues,
is that you know, there's all this mental stuff like
you were ready to go and now you kicked out
the door and all this bullshit. But uh, man, I
would say probably five six years. So one of the
problems with us, man is we don't talk about this shit.
(01:31):
We don't talk about weakness or you know, I go
to the gym and I get no gains or I can't.
We don't tell each other that shit. We're trying a
tough guy through, like we're still on a team for
some reason. And there were a lot of things that
I was experiencing that I didn't know my team mugs
to go through the exact same thing two hundred miles away,
because I mean, we never talked about it.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, for me, it was this. It was when the
suicide started to creep up, like eight nine, twenty ten,
and that's when I was just like, all right, what's
going on? And then by twenty fifteen, I just started
feeling a ton of it. And for me, in twenty
sixteen is when I met a guy named doctor Chris
(02:13):
Free and he's the one who wrote the book Operator Syndrome. Yeah,
oh really, and yeah, yeah, we're we've been friends a
long time and he was the one who really brought
to my attention because he does a lot of work
with the Seal Future Foundation and they really promote the
VETS program down.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
In Mexico and as a great Augila.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And then I started having all my buddies go through
different forms of using you know, natural medicine to help
with that. When when was your when were you introduced
to it? And what was your primary reason you wanted
to explore this?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, so it's probably around like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty,
all right.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I sort of have real like health problems too.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I ent up the hospital shouldered been repaired before I
got a blood clot that it was both long. I
was a fucking mess by the time I got to
the VA. I spent like a year and a half
on blood thinners, and in that I kind of felt
I fell apart more than two because I've had a
year and a half where I wasn't even allowed to
do cardio. They're like, hey, if your heart rate gets up,
you know, you might just jar this thing loose and
(03:18):
you'll die.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So just kind of lay there and let your wife
through the hard party. It was that bad. I was
like whoa. So that caused like a now that I
can't do anything, even any maintenance.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
When I got out of off those blood thinners, I
think I realized more than what a mess I was
health wise, because.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Now I mean I can't make up any ground.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And the term operators and I don't even think I
heard that term until maybe twenty twenty twenty twenty one,
but it covered everything.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It's like, oh my god, somebodysactly.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
But again, all this stuff that we're all going through,
but nobody's talking to each other. We're trying to get
a job or tough guy through this shit. And so
I was, I would say I was kind of looking
for a solution. And actually one of my buddies called
me and introduced me to trains they called transcranial magnetic stimulation. Yeah, okay,
(04:09):
So there was a charity that had it together and
I went and did that and it did help. I mean,
it was it was a little it was a little game,
like say, it was like a fifteen percent gain. And
they gave me all kinds of you know, uh supplements
to go with it, and testosterone if I wanted it,
which I didn't actually take it because I was afraid
that if I took unnatural testoster and it would damage
my body's ability to make it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So it helped somebody.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think actually what it did was it gave me
enough of boosom, like Okay, I've got to do something
about my health and I got to look for something else.
Around the same time, I was actually teaching a group
of like bitcoin nerds that have Texas had to shoot, right.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So these guys are.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
All they're all successful and wealthy dudes, and they're you know,
cutting age all this other stuff. And as they're they're
talking to me or talking to each other offline, they're
talking about like microdosing mush rooms and things like that,
using it as a therapeutic and how much has helped them.
So I finally asked them like, hey, you know, like hypothetically,
like what would that do?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Like, oh man, we've been waiting for a dog, And.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
A couple of them had actually already donated like a
big amount of money to like like that' thing. Some
of these other places are doing the Mexico things, like
we're seeing like basically results that are like incredible, So like, yeah,
if you wanted to give it a go, it probably.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Help you a lot.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And uh so that's actually where I got my first
uh you know stash if you will. But man, I
I was still scared of it. Bro that sat in
my freezer for a year before I had the stones
to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Wow. Wow, had you ever done it before before you
went in? Or yeah? No, I didn't touch a thing, dude.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I'm like the most Nancy Reagan guy that you ever met, Like,
you know, like I wanted to I want to go
in the military for an early age. So I was like, oh, no,
you'll cut your face off. What razor blades if you
do any of that stuff. And I can't smoke weed
because it's a gateway drug. I'd never smoked weed before
I win it.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, I was that straight laced, so I man, I'd
never even considered it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And I think too. Ald agree.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That actually made it scarier than like, wait a minute, man,
this is a big, big step.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh it's massive. It's massive. I mean, there's there's so much,
there's so much mysticism, right is probably the best word
affiliated with you know, tripping your face off or you
know whatever that is. Right, it's all built up from
the counterculture movement and Timothy Leary and all those guys.
But you know, I think for me the big shift was,
(06:41):
you know, I had these friends that it was crazy
like when I used to do a show with some
guys Marcus Latrell back in the day, and and and
he started talking a little bit about some of these therapeutics,
and I was just like, wait, what there's like people
are taking a hallucinogenic and it's helping and and and
(07:02):
then what really kind of exploded. I remember reading an
article about that guy, Tim Ferris, the one of the
first big podcasts, and he don't he raised like seventeen
million dollars to start a veteran research program at Johns Hopkins. Yes,
and and that was based on they there was a
(07:25):
study that had done for using psilocybin to treat pancer
people that had terminal cancer yep, and found immeasurable therapeutic
effects to improve into what that end of life care? Yes,
end of life care.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
That's right, absolutely as yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
And so when so now it's sitting in your your
freezer for a year, what was the threshold point for you?
What was the thing that got you over the line?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Man?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
This is actually hugely important, and this is part of
the reason that I've been so vocal about it now,
Is that because a lot of those dudes, like I,
I didn't know, I had never heard like Marcustel talk
about it. Apparently this is like more widespread than I knew.
But not a lot of those guys had had talked
about it yet in my knowledge, and certainly none of
like my peers head like my brother turns out that
(08:13):
after I did this, like a bunch of we're like,
oh yeah, man, yeah, it's awesome. I just didn't tell
you for some reason, Like guy thinks, thanks stick.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well, it's that shame, right I'm a druggie or I'm
something wrong with me? Is that same? It's that it's
that shame of ambition that's built in, right.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Well, I think there's a couple of other things that
go along with it too. I'd actually never considered that,
But that is a piece of it. The other parts are, Man,
this is this is true. This is definitely true for
us soft guys. I was scared to do it because
my thought process was something like this, like, you know,
I'm technically a mass murderer, Like I'm good at it,
all right, do I really want to pour? Because you
know what, the fuck of Lucien Jitny does I've never
(08:51):
done it before? Am I going to pour that on
this guy?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Like?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
What am I going to fucking do?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Like if I decided that I'm going to go crazy,
They're going to need to s in five counties or
the SWAT teams to get me where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
You know it's gonna be It's gonna.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Call in a national guy, you know what I mean? Like, seriously, once,
once that barbarian spirit is unleaded, they're gonna find They're
gonna find hatchets in five states.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
You don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You don't know that you're gonna lay down and you
just think from like watching bad after school specials and
ship like I might go crazy. No you're not, man,
but you don't know that.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
The second part, I've heard a number of my peers
say this too. They're they're afraid. I'm afraid of this too.
They're afraid they're gonna turn them like into a pussy
basically because we're on this hippie you know, ah piece
of love bullshit, and we're kind of all afraid, like
I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna wake up and
I'm not gonna be able to kill a grasshopper again,
I'm gonna be like walking through life like a Buddhist monk.
(09:51):
And uh, you know I like that edge about me.
You know that is part of us, that like killer instinct,
all those things, that's a piece of us that we
don't or we can't let go really, So I mean
I was a little bit concerned. Maybe take that away too,
Uh let me see what else. Yeah, and then you know,
just like the standard for is like I'm going to
be an addict. I'm going to be a cilicite, Like, yeah,
(10:12):
that's not even real thing, but you know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
That could be. And uh yeah, so I was. I was.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean I was scared. I was honestly, I was
afraid of it. And that's why it sat for so long.
What would finally push it over the edge for me?
Like I got to do something. I was just kind
of in this this spot of like it wasn't like
deeply suicidal or anything like that, but I'm like I just
know now. And again I think that the TMS helped
me get to this point. Like I know I'm a
(10:39):
fucking mess. I know that I'm not handling life well,
I know that I'm not you know, loving my kids
as much as I could, and I've just got this
this brain fog and this lack of an I'm just
a fucking disaster.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I don't recognize myself anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Wow. I mean, that's that I think in all the
guys that I've talked to that have been in that's
in our state, in that state where you're it's it's
almost like you're that hope is dwindling. It the reservoir
of of that will power to want to keep that
edge right and work because you still have it in
(11:17):
your head, but you the it's not as easily attainable
as it was when you're in right, because you know,
every day you wake up there's you know, from zero
dark thirty to the middle of the night, there's it's
planned out and you know you can just execute. Now
you've got to figure out it on your own.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Let me so when when you I mean, obviously, if
you don't mind, would you would you talk about would
you talk about you know, that first experience? Ye?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
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(12:11):
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(12:34):
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(12:56):
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Speaker 2 (13:13):
So I did it in a way that I don't
necessarily recommend for everybody else, but this is what happens,
so I'm going to talk about it. So I don't
even think i'd talked to my wife about me doing this.
Maybe i'd like vaguely talk to her about it, like
months in the past. And my wife was wildly opposed
to it for this reason of she did a lot
(13:36):
of recreational hallucinogenics where she was way younger. She was
a you know, a teenager, she long before we do
each other, and so she had this kind of fear
too of seeing the bad side of things.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
All right, what you know can happen, that's just where
it happens.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So she wasn't really on board with it, and I
was kind of like, you know, fuck, I have to
do this. Like I also don't think she understood like
how bad of a spot I was in, because we
tend to make steps our wives.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
So so finally I'm like, hey, fuck it, I got
to do this. I got to do something. So I
basically waited for a night for her to go to
bed early, which doesn't really happen that often.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And I'm like, I'm gonna go to my garage with
its concrete floor, and I make like a little nest
at a fucking lawn chair cushions and ship, and I'm like,
I'll lock the door and hope I don't remember how
to open it, and uh, I'm going to do this,
and uh.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Whatever happens happens.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Hopefully I don't die in the fucking garage like a
like a total dumb ass, you know, man.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm I'm also like scared of the mushroom. So I'm
tritting like see your school. Like like noon, I take
something and I rub it on the inside of my arm,
like if I have an allergy.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Like four like four hours before I take a little bite,
chew it up and spit it out.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Make sure I don't like break out and hives or
some shit.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, it's us, man, it's us. So it's fucking ridiculous
in retrospect. But I did. I did all this stuff.
So I night, come shoes in bed.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I'm like, oh, I can't sleep, go downstairs, Lucky Garaga,
and I take like half of my dose, which is
so I had I had like four and a half
grams around. I took like two and a half of it,
and I'm kind of like, Okay, here we go.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Let's let's see what happens.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And it takes so long to kick into the first
time you just be like, oh, I'm immune to this shit,
Like nothing happens.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I was like, I'm a team guy, I need ten
times the amount.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Well, and it turns out for me quite the opposite
is true.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like I probably could have just taken that two and
a half and I'd have been flying so like an
hour and twenty minutes, and I'm just like everything's visual
and I'm like, oh fuck, here we go, and uh yeah,
it was wild.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Can you describe some of what did you do to
keep your mind engaged? Like you know, you you you
hear people talk about it all the time. They say,
all right, go into it with intention, you know, let
you know the let the medicine work on you, and
you don't try and work the medicine. You know all
these things. And had you done research prior to it
(16:07):
as well?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Not really, I had, Uh, I had talked to my
buddy who's who's uh, he's one of.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
The civilian guys. But he's got a lot of he's.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Like ten years of experienced this and like, you know,
hundreds of thousands of dollars with like high level guys,
so he's got to, I mean a lot of experience.
And he kind of talked me through it, so you know,
it's not like I was completely alone as far as
what to do. Uh, But still I didn't tell him.
I didn't like call him prior to or anything. And
this actually kind of crosses into the space where I'm
(16:37):
at now. The difference between there's three ways that you
can use these things, and that's real recreationally, which I
don't recommend for anyone, therapeutically and then ritually and and
honestly most most therapy is is closer to ritual.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
There's there's times where you're like laying on the shrinks
couch that's different. All the things that the guy's do
in Mexico and and things like that, like iahwuask is
that a close mix of like ritual and managed this
kind of a gray area between.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, it's interesting when I when I for a little
bit of time, I was you know, I knew the
Aubrey Marcus over it on it sponsored my my podcast
for a little bit, and you know that was right
when he and was really breaking out. That's when Joe
Rogan was having all you know, the mushroom expert on
all the time. And and it really kind of like
(17:29):
gained this you know, momentum societally to where you started
seeing it all over the place. And but still there
was this resistance within the veteran community, I think because
of all those things you've already described. But but it's
like you said, somewhere around twenty twenty, twenty one, twenty two,
(17:50):
you know, kind of like after the COVID thing, Yeah,
really woke everybody up and like, wait a minute, man,
there's another approach. That's when it kind of exploded. So
you know when you when I always hear about going
down and I've had a lot of people go down
to Peru and do the deep in the Amazon type
(18:10):
of ritual stuff. You know, some guys were like, man,
it was a lot. I'm not sure that was good.
And then you know, all the Mexico guys have all
said they loved it, and I think I probably have
you know, forty friends that have done it now. But
then there's this other aspect, this therapeutic side that I
don't think it's a lot of attention. Can you talk
(18:33):
a little bit about the therapeutic aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I can to a degree, I could talk about that
personally with me, but actually in illegal context because of
what I'm doing now, I cannot.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
We had to stay very firmly in the.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
In the religious spaces where but I will definitely say
from my first time. So my first experience was crazy,
you know. That's part of the reason I wrote the book.
It was absolute, but it was absolute Balker's very visual,
very visceral.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Can you talk tell the audience the name of the
book too, and when you wrote it?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Sure, the name of the book is Barbarian Spirit. Actually
just checked the date yesterday. It came out a year ago,
June twenty ninth.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Congratulations on that.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
By way, thank your brother.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So in fact, you know what I'll I'll skip over
the story part that I get to. What I saw
is the benefit on the back side of it. Some
mine was intensely I mean super intensely visual. It was crazy,
and it was also a very religious experience for me,
which should a lot of these other things in motion.
But on the side like the health side. When I
(19:39):
walked out of that the next day man for the
first time, and like, I can't even tell you how
long I felt like me again, if that makes any sense.
I felt like I had like hit the reset. I
felt like I was twenty five years old to get
mentally now unfortunate my body, but it was still twenty five.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But my head was so clear.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I mean, I swear for like two weeks after I
was done, I could feel like, actually feel like my
brain and like growing back together is what it felt like,
had so much clarity.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
The brain fog was gone.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Ambition, It's not it wasn't like crazy, it wasn't like drug,
but it was like an ambition you know where it
should be from where I'm at in life. I felt good.
I slept amazing. This has been something I've seen a
lot of other dudes to the first time sleep. Guys
have slept in twenty years. Another sleeping like nine hours
a night like a baby. And the biggest thing I
would say on like the like the feeling side of things,
(20:34):
like I felt like a different connection to my kids that.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I'd never had before.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, and that that that alone was worth like the
price of admission.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I love that. That's my favorite piece I hear the
most right is that I can finally look at my
child and connect with them on the level that they need. Yes, yes,
as opposed to being the ultimate protector the chrish. Yeah,
all that. You just let that go and now all
of a sudden you're communicating with them and they feel
(21:07):
it right. They know the difference when Dad's got the
armor on and then when dad's you know, available and right.
That I think is the most positive aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I think only too. It's changed my relations with my
wife so much too. Uh for the positive, like all
for the positive. I feel like it's like this, I
remember if this was an original thought or some real
state of it, it's relevant. It's almost like like we
turned off all these emotions and shit, we fought the war,
right we had to u because dudes were dying.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And it doesn't matter if your teammate got za yesterday.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We're going fucking back out today and you can mourn
for him when we get home, and you know, people
getting fucked up, and uh.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
We do. We just cut. It's a Western way of
warfare too.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
It's very cold, very calculated, and that's required. I mean,
that's actually something they beat into us, and there's something
they select for so that we can be the guys
that we are. Is are you this kind of heartless,
fucking killing machine for the most part?
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
And the war just makes that work because we have
to now actually do these things. We turn our emotions off,
and I think in a lot of ways like we
forget or we don't know how to turn them back on.
Then that is something else that's the side effect of this.
That's really what I felt like it was for me.
It didn't like all come rushing back at once, but
I did feel like I could actually have like a
like a real like emotional connection to my children and wife.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
After that, you know, it's it's I never like before
I went in.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Man.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know, I always laugh when I tell people this,
but you know, I was an art major in college, right,
so yeah, a fucking I'm a hippie. You can kill you,
right yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And and and I go into teams, and I was
petrified that I was going to lose that aspect of myself.
And and and very quickly got to you know, the
transformation began, and you just you have to you have
to allow what it's It's almost like it's almost ritualistic
(22:59):
in in and of itself, right, the training is ritual yeah, right,
And and you think about those bonds not so much
the bonds that are being laid down through those instructors,
and then all of a sudden, you know, now then
you go to war, and now that's it's a whole
(23:20):
nother level of that. You know, that that that barbarian spirit,
like you describe it? Can can you talk about what
that that that means for people? Because there's gonna be
a lot of especially young young men that listen to this.
They're like they're infatuated with with you know, guys like us.
They're in such a way as a hard word, but
(23:41):
you know they look up to us. They aspire to
have that sense of confidence and the ability and prospere.
Can you describe that barbarian spirit a little bit?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And this is uh, this is actually something else that
came out of the psilocybin And it came from my
first time. Actually, uh was this like deep deep connection
to like an ancient warrior tradition that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I could not have fathomed in another way. But it
showed me.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
It showed me what it called the blood bridge, which
is back through you know, DNA and back to the time,
back to history like this is who you are and
this he related to and that was I mean, that
was amazing, and I think that as part of the
calling now for me to help our brethren specifically with
this is it wakes that up in them, and it's
a good thing. It's all a positive thing. I think
(24:30):
you have to have some let me rephrase that. I know,
you have to have some like real world experience, in
real world strength, you have to train these things, you
have to be good with weapons in the real world,
all this stuff. And this is also why I don't
think I cannot imagine giving this sacrament to like a
nineteen or twenty year old.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
They don't have the things that they.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Need yet, not at all.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
If you spend your youth all right, growing that all right,
when you pour this on top, it does it takes
you to like a different place mentally.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
It's very positive too.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It shows you it's basically almost like another selection process
like Okay, you went up through these things and now
you can have this too. This is kind of a
power on top of the spirit power, on top of
your physical power.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So it is great. I mean it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's almost like an enhancer for all of the hardship,
all of the sacrifice, all of the bloodshed, you know,
because I you know, that's the one thing I you know,
I get into these kind of philosophical metaphysical discussions with
civilians all the time and trying to help them understand, right,
to create some link for them to maybe it's they
(25:42):
all have a degree of empathy, but they don't have
a degree of understanding, right, yes, right, yeah, And so
trying to say, hey man, this stuff goes way way back.
I mean not only the warrior spirit, but I mean
there's there's all kinds of connections to plant medicine that
that goes back thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
All right, Greeks, Romans, uh, you know, pre those civilizations,
all the South American civilizations. It's funny they they've been
finding these little spoons on all the Germanic warriors, uh
that they think that they're calling them basically their meth
amphetamine spoon. But they were they were attached to their
they like he find was attached to their war belt
in front of their sword. And that's they've tested it
(26:25):
now a few times, and that is for some substances
like this, and it was it was such a part
of their their stuff that it's buried with them on
that belt.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Part of the ritual, part of the they're burying right.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's it looks like they probably
actually carried those to combat with them too, like they
bothered to take that along with the sword and the acts.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's wild, all right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Do you think we can you know, talk uh sephardic
into maybe like issueing the.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yah'd be totally dead?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Well, actually, this is a funny thing. This is real.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
We I think that we have a think all these
things came together, but we have a very slim window
with this administration that there's a possibility that we could
see at least pilot programs of this as both a
pre deployment and a post deployment, uh kind of what's
prophylactic if you will. Yes, And that would be so
amazing because that's actually part historically with the warrior class
(27:21):
of what this was used for too. For instance, I
think I can remember with comanchees or patches, but one
or the other when they came back from war parties,
they didn't get to go back to the village.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
All right, they went outside of camp with the medicine man.
All right, you'd feed them.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Some of whatever they had, payoty, whatever it was for
a couple of days and kind of wash that ship
off of them and then they could go back to civilization.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, the han Bliss, Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, it's it's exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It's actually thought that some of the crusaders had a
ritual like this too, they just kind of kept it quiet.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
So yeah, it's not it's not without precedent.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
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(29:31):
of the things that I find fascinating is when you
dig into the history of of of how the government
came crashing down and made all these things Schedule one
drugs back in the late sixties. You know, meanwhile they're
they're doing these experiments on people in Ashbery's you having
the massive qualities of lisurgic acid right to see what
(29:53):
happens to It's just it's it's crazy. But you know,
I think now we are seeing the most recent one
was you know the Texas House and set. Yeah, overwhelmingly
with that guy Hubbard who is connected to Morgan Latrelle
and Governor Rairiy to really dig in a fifty million
dollar allotment to begin researching I be again as as
(30:18):
as a substance to help this.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
The only thing that scares me about that one is
I begain and I have not used I again, but
I begained is incredibly powerful, but it actually comes with
a health risk where like they make those guys were
like heart monitors and shit, and have like a real
doctor around when they do it. Yeah, I kind of
wish they'd started with something else, but I'm glad they're
aid doing something. And then and b that's this is
(30:41):
one of the things you discovered too, is all these
all these sacrifics have different uses. And for like, was
it opioate addiction, I begain is without question, it's the one.
I mean, it's it's the one, and I guess ayahuasca
is a close second. So I mean, there's an incredible
value in these things. I hope that turns on grain Texas.
You know, this is exactly what we need right now.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I agree. Can you talk a little bit about some
of the reason why your proponent for psilocybin as opposed
to the others, For you know, instead of going to
the VA and what getting your handful of psychotropics in
your you know, I says, take inhibitors and your valume
and all your shit. Right, that's going to kill you, right,
(31:24):
Why psilocybin.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Because in my opinion, most of those things mask problems
and it's actually the same thing that that weed and
alcohol does. I'm not coming down on weed and alcohol either.
They have a use, but mostly those are an escape thing.
You you know, come home, drink a bot what I
used to do, because alcohol is not a drug and
weed is. Drink a fifth all right, get home from work, whatever,
(31:48):
crack open some booze, I escape my problems for eight hours.
I wake up with a hangover. Now I got to
deal with those problems again, cycle back through the day,
and do it again. Weirdly, psilocybin and especially solves problems.
They're over when you when you do it after you've
been through your ritual or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
It actually makes those problems going. It's a permanent, lasting effect.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Now, depending on how deep your problems go, you may
need you know, more cycles of it over over the
course of months and years, but it actually makes things better,
so you don't need that stuff anymore, which is I
believe that's actually one of the reasons they've they've gone
so hard in the pain about keeping it illegal. Is
I mean, you're trying to upset a trillion dollar industry,
you know, for big pharma.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
And it's funny.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Actually psilocybin was still legal in the UK up until
two thousand and five.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
You have to sell it in that and raw not
dried form, but yeah, it was totally illegal. You go
to farmer's market and buy psilocybin up until two thousand
and five.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's insane to me, is wild, But that's what you're
up against. You're up against people that they can't make
any money off you, so they're going to keep you,
you know, keep you down.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Well, I mean, that's actually that's really the funny thing.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Like with our veterans program and what we're doing, the
costs almost all the costs then bringing the guys out
and keeping them fed for three days, Like the cost
of the sacrament itself.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Is like fifty bucks. I mean it's nothing.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Wow. Wow. Tell us about the program you're running and
first like why you wanted to start it? And then
what what did? What the program entails?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Sure, and let me come for you.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Also why I use psilocydb WHI we're talking about because
I kind of skipped away in the last question. So
a while back, as soon as I distilocide in the
first time, I was like, I want a way to
get this to my brothers, and I did, you know,
off the books very quietly, like some of them like
my close hold foots to be like all right, man,
come on, or you know. I started getting the calls
at about like man, I'm gonna however it goes, I'm
(33:46):
gonna kill myself, Like yeah, hold on, let me add
this one for like if you you have to freeze
things differently depended on the guy if he's going to
kill himselbject like I'm just gonna off myself, Like hey man,
you're gonna kill yourself anyway, why don't you just hang
out for a minute.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I'm gonna come over.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
We're gonna get high as fuck on some different stuff
and it's gonna be totally cool. And if it's not,
you know whatever, I leave on Monday. You get off yourself.
I'll even wait in the parking lot.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
I'll call you.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I'll call the cops. So your wipe this, find your body,
be great, show up, ma'am. Get in a sacrament eight
hours later, like that was amazing, holy ship something like, no,
you know that life is too amazingly awesome. I'm going home.
Uh so I knew that that is.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
And it is that intense. You see it on their faces. Yeah,
and that's what's so insane. And and it's that what
is it? It's it's deeper than relief. It's it's it's
a revelatory, right, yeah, Like it all kind of falls off,
and now all of a sudden there's like, oh, wait,
you mean there's a solution, there's a there's an opportunity exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
No, it's an like that. You also know your job's
done and you're like, yeah, this is this guy's good.
He's straight, Like I can leave right now. He's good.
Uh So I I wanted a way to get this
to my guys and everyone actually, and with the suicide
epidemic that we're seeing in the United States period, not
just amongst veterans.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I mean, it's it's insane. Some cases it's gone of
like fifty percent in the last twenty years.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
These are actually things that I wasn't thinking about though
for probably the first year that I used psilocybin, and
it was about maybe maybe six or eight months ago
that I felt the like the calling, like this kind
of calling to start this uh, this this church uh.
And it had to be this way for a variety
(35:36):
of reasons. And it kind of in a weird way,
it kind of had to be me too, because I
already wrote something that's very much counts as a holy
book about psilocybin man, and it's it's also weirdly, I
think why he gave me an odd path, like why
he came to me in this Norse pagan tradition, which
(35:59):
didn't make a lot of sense at the time.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I was gonna run with it because that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right when you're called, you're called.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Right when it's when you're done with like that should
be like couldn't you like pick something that was leasier, like, no,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You know that from a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
That will get the easy path, brother, But it does.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Give us a an iron clad uh you know, uh
link to a ten thousand year old tradition of using
psilocybins specifically, so you know honestly too. I've before I
started this, I tried a couple other things, like I
tried LSD. I didn't really care for it. There are
people that can use that as a therapeutic or in
(36:43):
a ritual manner. I won't, just because I don't think
that it agrees with our systems what we need.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
NDMA is also great.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I do work with that one as well, but I
firmly believe that psilocybin is the sacrament that you use
first because it's such a wide spectrum thing. It's it
helps with so many things as well as it's the
one that turns suicidal thought off, like like a light switch.
And it's funny because I didn't really under I didn't
think of it as the suicide off switch until about
(37:13):
like six eight months ago I started putting the paperwork
together to do this, uh this organization. I had to
go back and think I'm like, wait, it does do that,
And that actually did that for me, and it did
it so well that I never thought about it again,
Like I forgot that that was even yet. It was
like in a race that it had ever been a
thing forever. And I don't know how many dudes you
(37:36):
know that have that have had this one. I wasn't
like hyper depressed, like I'm gonna kill myself. I did
go through that phase like when I first got out
for a minute, but you know, I wasn't going to
go through with it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
The second one that I see amongst veterans is the
uh they get to this point where they just.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Like wake up and they're like what am I doing? Man?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Like I already did the cool height. You know, I
was writing helicopters. Now I'm going to work at the
fuck Crab Macaroni Chiefe factory. Maybe it's just all over.
I've seen help with that one, and I've been through
that one too. Now, neither of those two were gonna
affect me after my sons were born, because now I'm
so committed to them. But the third one, I actually
went through this one as well. I'm calling it suicide
(38:18):
by other means you've seen it like that, like the
weird shit, Like there was an absolute legend of the
Special Forces Regiment that overdosed on heroin six months after
he retired. No, yeah, and at the time.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
We're like, what the what the fuck? Like fucking heroin
and you don't get it. But once you've been retired
and you're out of the system and you're having all
these things on this flood and survivors built like, it's like,
oh fuck, man, yeah, I get it now. Like he
offed himself. He just it just didn't. It's not going
to show up in the status that's what he did,
or you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Know, drinking and driving it, you know, incredibly high rates
to sea because you just don't care. A lot of
guys die that way too. That should count in the
suicide column. But I you know, I would say I
was past that one too, the one that I was
still having. And this is so fucking weird, the impulsive thought.
So you know, I've been around guns my entire life,
and I did like gun journalism for a while. If
(39:08):
very retired. I was a competitive shooter. There's I mean,
there's fucking guns everywhere. There's like fifteen guns in my
office right here about like I don't know, two or
three times a week, I would just be like walking
by something and I would have this impulsive thought like
you should pick that gun up and shoot yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
And I'd be like, you know, I'd be like like,
oh fuck, like oh wait, wait, hold on, no other symptoms,
no depression, just I don't know what the fuck it was,
but it was. It was. It was all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It wasn't like every day, but it was. It was frequent.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Psilocybin turned that off to the point that I forgot
it even happened until I started looking suicide statistics again.
I'm like, oh, fuck, man, like, how many guys have
how many guys have a had that same impulsive thought?
I think of a fucking TBI. I think it's actually
like demonic whisper. Now may we're a little damage from
from being over in the fucking land of gins or whatever.
(40:00):
How many dudes have gone through with it, and of
course there was no symptoms. It's just an impulsive, fucking
snap decision. But it makes that one completely go away. Yeah,
I mean some wild shit. So so what I did
is I found in this organization. We're calling it a
Path of Barbarian Spirit and it is a faith based organization.
(40:20):
But what we're doing is we're going to build a
small retreat on some land that I've already bought in
the ozarks. Ptilocybin itself, from my experience, also works best
in nature anyway. It's very much like a primal enhancer.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
And then also when.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
We think about like us, like the hard shit that
we did, especially like training all right, when you were
going through buds and I was going through the Q course,
it wasn't about like technology and goggles.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
It was doing hard.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Shit in the woods with some bullshit and getting bit
by ticks and triggers, being the cold az ocean, all
this like nature stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
So we'd put veterans back in that type of environment.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And we're using yurts instead of buildings, so it's it's
still like being a fucking tint yep. It puts them
back in this natural space that really helps the reset
on the back side of the ritual.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Uh, it is amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I you know what I love to hear is I
love to hear that these stories like yours because it
means that dudes are not giving up there. And then
not only are they not giving up. But you're in
that same Green Beret spirit, right, you're you're you're freeing
(41:32):
the oppressed, right yeah, Like, and the oppressed is our
brothers in their minds, the oppressed is more importantly the
oppression of their souls, yes, from what what they volunteered
to do to expose themselves to. So I love the
fact that you you're it's a it's a religious in
nature aspect to it, because I mean, you know, you
(41:53):
go back and you think about, you know, some of
the greatest you know, warrior cultures in history, they all
have have that component built into it. But yet in
the modern era, you know, seeming even post World War One,
when you know, you had all those guys rioting in
in d C because they're like, hey, you screwed us over.
(42:14):
That's the common place now, and so once again it's
on us to take care of our brothers in a
way that's ritualistic, that that that has that barbarian spirit,
that has that warrior ethos still ingrained in it, and
and getting rid of all the other what is it?
It's it's it's it's it's deeper than the lie or
(42:38):
the the the illusion of support of the VA or whatever.
It's just like it's like we're done with you. Yes,
like you've served your purpose and and for us now
it's like no, no, no, no, your purpose is even
more important. Now. What are some of the things that
you guys talk about in those retreats?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, dude, this is actually let me back once, that
usually important.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
This is one of the other ways that I know
was divine intervention.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Is because I'm not this fucking smart.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
There is there's.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Actually an obstacle also, like I love what like like
that I think is doing an heroic card other I
love what they're doing, but there's a there's a there's
a built in problem with it, and that's that a
lot of dudes will not go to Mexico and they
will sure as fuck not go to Mexico to do
drugs in a sketchy situation with people that they don't know.
And that's what it sounds like. No matter how I
I I church it up. If this is a healing retreat,
(43:33):
that's how I would have thought about it. Honestly, like
three years ago when I started to three being like,
hey man, we got to go to TJ and be
like the fuck we are, Like we're not. Uh, And
I understand why they've done this, and I understand why
they continue to do this, but it's divine intervention and
that he gave me a pathway that we can legally
(43:55):
do this in the United States because we're not a therapy.
Were our First Amendment and a Restoring Religious Freedom Act
protected religious activity, and so we can bring guys to
us in the fucking woods in Arkansas, and we are
one hundred percent legit and able to do this. And
(44:16):
I'm actually looking at us as like the paramedics of
this thing. We can give them this first little dose.
All right, some guys, that's gonna be enough. Some guys
are gonna stick with the spiritual path that I'm on.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
That's cool, that's awesome. Uh. Some guys are gonna it's
gonna passionate just enough.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
They're gonna know that they have, I mean, real fucking
problems that we can't fix and they need to go
to Mexico and get one of the other therapeutics, or
they need to go to a a real like headshrink
and not be religious guy and get some some some therapy.
And that's all totally cool. We're totally gonna make that work.
Uh yeah, So, I mean it's it's been amazing.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Well, I mean Clay, I just uh once I I
just it's apped in my head. I was like, oh
my god, you know he's he's got this whole thing.
It's a program, it's focused, he wrote the book. I
was just like, man, I just got to bring him
on so he can share with us, with with the
(45:14):
people out there and let people know what's going on
and that they're, in particular are our brothers that are
all struggling right now. So thank you so much for
coming on and for sharing what you're doing. Is there
any way people can donate to it, like your church?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yea, yeah, absolutely so we have If you go over
to barbarinscrew dot com, there's a page for donations.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
We have a gifts and go up right now.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
We've actually developed some if I guess I'm lame on
the desk here, we developed some merchandise specifically.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
For this because yes, we need we need money. We
need that. Well, the other thing we need to do is
raise awareness this is happening.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
So we made some stuff that is specifically for raising
awareness that psilocybin solves this problem. So that's my twenty
two grand between two fish up stickers. It's a twofold thing. Yeah,
we need fund to build our shit out and bring
guys in. We also need all the guys to know
like this works, because there's other ways to get it.
And man, people are hurting right now. Fuck bro, if
(46:14):
you are hurting right now, probably start calling Somebody's got something.
Somebody can square you away, and you're gonna love this
next part. This is uh, this is honest. This is
where we apply the green Bray model to future for
this because this is not intended to be like one
little church in the woodside. We've got to build that
first because we had to have a base of operations.
We are looking at the concept of training our own
(46:37):
priest class to be able to do this and have
their own franchises all of the United States. And honestly,
after we fight the the first couple of little legal battles,
it's it's not even denominational at that point, Like we're
going to have Christian priests that come out of this.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
We're going to have, you know, Buddhist priests that come
out of this.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
That's fucking totally cool, all right, we will still keep
you in our circle of protection here, UH will show
you how to do these rituals and these focused things.
It will help you raise funds for your franchise when
you get there. We're also looking in the near future
building a parallel nonprofit.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
All right.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
If there are things that we can do on the
religious side and there are things that people can do
on the medical research side, never show those two cross.
But if we build a nonprofit that's parallel that we
can staff with you know, some X officer nerds and
you know, neurooscientists and probably a shrink or two. All Right,
they can't come over and dictate protocol in the church.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I have to do that. But hypothetically, on the back
side of this, if any.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Of our guys, once they've gone through this, or while
they're going through this, would like to come over and
share their brain scan data in an anonymous way or talk
with these people that do medical research very much off
of my camp in the camp next door. We can
do a lot of damage in a very short amount
of time.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Wow, well, Clay, Uh, I wish you all the best, man.
I'm praying for you and and and your team, and
I just can't thank you enough for coming on and
sharing this. Where where can people follow you? And how
can they get in touch?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Uh? Mostly we've got a contact point over at Barbarian
Spirit dot com.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I spent a lot of more time than I should
on Twitter. I'm way off the brace.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You don't stop that.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
I can't. IM an addict.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
We're not great on the other social media platforms you have,
and we're getting there. But yeah, I mean yeah, please
come check us out. Look at what we've done. A
couple of bucks help us out by some merchant. Just
tell your friend, tell your friends that this works. That's
going to help us. Came on minim into this awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Thank you brother, God bless you.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I thank you brother,
All right, everybody, today's show is something that is obviously
very near and dear to my heart. It's a component
of the last twenty plus years in the g WATT
and that's helping our brothers heal from what they've gone through.
And so I really wanted to reach out and bring
(00:21):
on not only one of my favorite shit talkers on
X but also one of the most dedicated guys that's
leading the charge to really make a difference with SOFT
members and their health and improving, and that's Clay Martin.
So Clay, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Man.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm so grateful that you came on.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
David Brother thinks we're having man. I can't thank you
enough for having on here. Man.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
This is awareness of this issue, what we're going to
do about it now that we actually have a solution,
most important thing in my life.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
All right, let's just back up a little bit. Obviously,
you know when you left service, you know, how long
did it take before you realize that what you were
dealing with was not just you know, old age.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Due to a long long time Actually I was I
was medically retired too, which brings about its own issues,
is that you know, there's all this mental stuff like
you were ready to go and now you kicked out
the door and all this bullshit. But uh, man, I
would say probably five six years. So one of the
problems with us, man is we don't talk about this shit.
(01:31):
We don't talk about weakness or you know, I go
to the gym and I get no gains or I can't.
We don't tell each other that shit. We're trying a
tough guy through, like we're still on a team for
some reason. And there were a lot of things that
I was experiencing that I didn't know my team mugs
to go through the exact same thing two hundred miles away,
because I mean, we never talked about it.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, for me, it was this. It was when the
suicide started to creep up, like eight nine, twenty ten,
and that's when I was just like, all right, what's
going on? And then by twenty fifteen, I just started
feeling a ton of it. And for me, in twenty
sixteen is when I met a guy named doctor Chris
(02:13):
Free and he's the one who wrote the book Operator Syndrome. Yeah,
oh really, and yeah, yeah, we're we've been friends a
long time and he was the one who really brought
to my attention because he does a lot of work
with the Seal Future Foundation and they really promote the
VETS program down.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
In Mexico and as a great Augila.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
And then I started having all my buddies go through
different forms of using you know, natural medicine to help
with that. When when was your when were you introduced
to it? And what was your primary reason you wanted
to explore this?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Okay, so it's probably around like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty,
all right.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I sort of have real like health problems too.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I ent up the hospital shouldered been repaired before I
got a blood clot that it was both long. I
was a fucking mess by the time I got to
the VA. I spent like a year and a half
on blood thinners, and in that I kind of felt
I fell apart more than two because I've had a
year and a half where I wasn't even allowed to
do cardio. They're like, hey, if your heart rate gets up,
you know, you might just jar this thing loose and
(03:18):
you'll die.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
So just kind of lay there and let your wife
through the hard party. It was that bad. I was
like whoa. So that caused like a now that I
can't do anything, even any maintenance.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
When I got out of off those blood thinners, I
think I realized more than what a mess I was
health wise, because.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Now I mean I can't make up any ground.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
And the term operators and I don't even think I
heard that term until maybe twenty twenty twenty twenty one,
but it covered everything.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
It's like, oh my god, somebodysactly.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
But again, all this stuff that we're all going through,
but nobody's talking to each other. We're trying to get
a job or tough guy through this shit. And so
I was, I would say I was kind of looking
for a solution. And actually one of my buddies called
me and introduced me to trains they called transcranial magnetic stimulation. Yeah, okay,
(04:09):
So there was a charity that had it together and
I went and did that and it did help. I mean,
it was it was a little it was a little game,
like say, it was like a fifteen percent gain. And
they gave me all kinds of you know, uh supplements
to go with it, and testosterone if I wanted it,
which I didn't actually take it because I was afraid
that if I took unnatural testoster and it would damage
my body's ability to make it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
So it helped somebody.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think actually what it did was it gave me
enough of boosom, like Okay, I've got to do something
about my health and I got to look for something else.
Around the same time, I was actually teaching a group
of like bitcoin nerds that have Texas had to shoot, right.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
So these guys are.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
All they're all successful and wealthy dudes, and they're you know,
cutting age all this other stuff. And as they're they're
talking to me or talking to each other offline, they're
talking about like microdosing mush rooms and things like that,
using it as a therapeutic and how much has helped them.
So I finally asked them like, hey, you know, like hypothetically,
like what would that do?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Like, oh man, we've been waiting for a dog, And.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
A couple of them had actually already donated like a
big amount of money to like like that' thing. Some
of these other places are doing the Mexico things, like
we're seeing like basically results that are like incredible, So like, yeah,
if you wanted to give it a go, it probably.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Help you a lot.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
And uh so that's actually where I got my first
uh you know stash if you will. But man, I
I was still scared of it. Bro that sat in
my freezer for a year before I had the stones
to do it.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Wow. Wow, had you ever done it before before you
went in? Or yeah? No, I didn't touch a thing, dude.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
I'm like the most Nancy Reagan guy that you ever met, Like,
you know, like I wanted to I want to go
in the military for an early age. So I was like, oh, no,
you'll cut your face off. What razor blades if you
do any of that stuff. And I can't smoke weed
because it's a gateway drug. I'd never smoked weed before
I win it.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, I was that straight laced, so I man, I'd
never even considered it.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
And I think too. Ald agree.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That actually made it scarier than like, wait a minute, man,
this is a big, big step.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Oh it's massive. It's massive. I mean, there's there's so much,
there's so much mysticism, right is probably the best word
affiliated with you know, tripping your face off or you
know whatever that is. Right, it's all built up from
the counterculture movement and Timothy Leary and all those guys.
But you know, I think for me the big shift was,
(06:41):
you know, I had these friends that it was crazy
like when I used to do a show with some
guys Marcus Latrell back in the day, and and and
he started talking a little bit about some of these therapeutics,
and I was just like, wait, what there's like people
are taking a hallucinogenic and it's helping and and and
(07:02):
then what really kind of exploded. I remember reading an
article about that guy, Tim Ferris, the one of the
first big podcasts, and he don't he raised like seventeen
million dollars to start a veteran research program at Johns Hopkins. Yes,
and and that was based on they there was a
(07:25):
study that had done for using psilocybin to treat pancer
people that had terminal cancer yep, and found immeasurable therapeutic
effects to improve into what that end of life care? Yes,
end of life care.
Speaker 3 (07:40):
That's right, absolutely as yeah it is.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
And so when so now it's sitting in your your
freezer for a year, what was the threshold point for you?
What was the thing that got you over the line?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Man?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
This is actually hugely important, and this is part of
the reason that I've been so vocal about it now,
Is that because a lot of those dudes, like I,
I didn't know, I had never heard like Marcustel talk
about it. Apparently this is like more widespread than I knew.
But not a lot of those guys had had talked
about it yet in my knowledge, and certainly none of
like my peers head like my brother turns out that
(08:13):
after I did this, like a bunch of we're like,
oh yeah, man, yeah, it's awesome. I just didn't tell
you for some reason, Like guy thinks, thanks stick.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Well, it's that shame, right I'm a druggie or I'm
something wrong with me? Is that same? It's that it's
that shame of ambition that's built in, right.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Well, I think there's a couple of other things that
go along with it too. I'd actually never considered that,
But that is a piece of it. The other parts are, Man,
this is this is true. This is definitely true for
us soft guys. I was scared to do it because
my thought process was something like this, like, you know,
I'm technically a mass murderer, Like I'm good at it,
all right, do I really want to pour? Because you
know what, the fuck of Lucien Jitny does I've never
(08:51):
done it before? Am I going to pour that on
this guy?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Like?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
What am I going to fucking do?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Like if I decided that I'm going to go crazy,
They're going to need to s in five counties or
the SWAT teams to get me where I'm at.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
You know it's gonna be It's gonna.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Call in a national guy, you know what I mean? Like, seriously, once,
once that barbarian spirit is unleaded, they're gonna find They're
gonna find hatchets in five states.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
You don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
You don't know that you're gonna lay down and you
just think from like watching bad after school specials and
ship like I might go crazy. No you're not, man,
but you don't know that.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
The second part, I've heard a number of my peers
say this too. They're they're afraid. I'm afraid of this too.
They're afraid they're gonna turn them like into a pussy
basically because we're on this hippie you know, ah piece
of love bullshit, and we're kind of all afraid, like
I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna wake up and
I'm not gonna be able to kill a grasshopper again,
I'm gonna be like walking through life like a Buddhist monk.
(09:51):
And uh, you know I like that edge about me.
You know that is part of us, that like killer instinct,
all those things, that's a piece of us that we
don't or we can't let go really, So I mean
I was a little bit concerned. Maybe take that away too,
Uh let me see what else. Yeah, and then you know,
just like the standard for is like I'm going to
be an addict. I'm going to be a cilicite, Like, yeah,
(10:12):
that's not even real thing, but you know.
Speaker 3 (10:13):
That could be. And uh yeah, so I was. I was.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean I was scared. I was honestly, I was
afraid of it. And that's why it sat for so long.
What would finally push it over the edge for me?
Like I got to do something. I was just kind
of in this this spot of like it wasn't like
deeply suicidal or anything like that, but I'm like I just
know now. And again I think that the TMS helped
me get to this point. Like I know I'm a
(10:39):
fucking mess. I know that I'm not handling life well,
I know that I'm not you know, loving my kids
as much as I could, and I've just got this
this brain fog and this lack of an I'm just
a fucking disaster.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I don't recognize myself anymore.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Wow. I mean, that's that I think in all the
guys that I've talked to that have been in that's
in our state, in that state where you're it's it's
almost like you're that hope is dwindling. It the reservoir
of of that will power to want to keep that
edge right and work because you still have it in
(11:17):
your head, but you the it's not as easily attainable
as it was when you're in right, because you know,
every day you wake up there's you know, from zero
dark thirty to the middle of the night, there's it's
planned out and you know you can just execute. Now
you've got to figure out it on your own.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Let me so when when you I mean, obviously, if
you don't mind, would you would you talk about would
you talk about you know, that first experience? Ye?
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
What I want to just talk to you a little
bit about is our our new Embrace Fear curriculum that's
available on David Rutherford dot com. It's a part of
the Frog Logic Institute, which is going to be an
emerging group of of of core products or core curriculum
that I've been working on over the past thirty years.
(12:11):
The first in line is learning to Embrace your fear.
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Now here's the deal. There's no such thing as fearless.
(12:34):
So please go to David Brutherford dot com, check out,
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understand your fear, to accept your fear, to begin to
retrain your brain with the fear, to test your fear
(12:56):
every day, and then ultimately to live with courage and
to deal with your fear as a motivational component to
go help you achieve your purpose in life. So don't
waste time go to David Brutherford dot com and check
out our Embrace Fear curriculum. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
So I did it in a way that I don't
necessarily recommend for everybody else, but this is what happens,
so I'm going to talk about it. So I don't
even think i'd talked to my wife about me doing this.
Maybe i'd like vaguely talk to her about it, like
months in the past. And my wife was wildly opposed
to it for this reason of she did a lot
(13:36):
of recreational hallucinogenics where she was way younger. She was
a you know, a teenager, she long before we do
each other, and so she had this kind of fear
too of seeing the bad side of things.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
All right, what you know can happen, that's just where
it happens.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So she wasn't really on board with it, and I
was kind of like, you know, fuck, I have to
do this. Like I also don't think she understood like
how bad of a spot I was in, because we
tend to make steps our wives.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
So so finally I'm like, hey, fuck it, I got
to do this. I got to do something. So I
basically waited for a night for her to go to
bed early, which doesn't really happen that often.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And I'm like, I'm gonna go to my garage with
its concrete floor, and I make like a little nest
at a fucking lawn chair cushions and ship, and I'm like,
I'll lock the door and hope I don't remember how
to open it, and uh, I'm going to do this,
and uh.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
Whatever happens happens.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Hopefully I don't die in the fucking garage like a
like a total dumb ass, you know, man.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm I'm also like scared of the mushroom. So I'm
tritting like see your school. Like like noon, I take
something and I rub it on the inside of my arm,
like if I have an allergy.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Like four like four hours before I take a little bite,
chew it up and spit it out.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Make sure I don't like break out and hives or
some shit.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, it's us, man, it's us. So it's fucking ridiculous
in retrospect. But I did. I did all this stuff.
So I night, come shoes in bed.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I'm like, oh, I can't sleep, go downstairs, Lucky Garaga,
and I take like half of my dose, which is
so I had I had like four and a half
grams around. I took like two and a half of it,
and I'm kind of like, Okay, here we go.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Let's let's see what happens.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
And it takes so long to kick into the first
time you just be like, oh, I'm immune to this shit,
Like nothing happens.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
I was like, I'm a team guy, I need ten
times the amount.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Well, and it turns out for me quite the opposite
is true.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Like I probably could have just taken that two and
a half and I'd have been flying so like an
hour and twenty minutes, and I'm just like everything's visual
and I'm like, oh fuck, here we go, and uh yeah,
it was wild.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Can you describe some of what did you do to
keep your mind engaged? Like you know, you you you
hear people talk about it all the time. They say,
all right, go into it with intention, you know, let
you know the let the medicine work on you, and
you don't try and work the medicine. You know all
these things. And had you done research prior to it
(16:07):
as well?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Not really, I had, Uh, I had talked to my
buddy who's who's uh, he's one of.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
The civilian guys. But he's got a lot of he's.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Like ten years of experienced this and like, you know,
hundreds of thousands of dollars with like high level guys,
so he's got to, I mean a lot of experience.
And he kind of talked me through it, so you know,
it's not like I was completely alone as far as
what to do. Uh, But still I didn't tell him.
I didn't like call him prior to or anything. And
this actually kind of crosses into the space where I'm
(16:37):
at now. The difference between there's three ways that you
can use these things, and that's real recreationally, which I
don't recommend for anyone, therapeutically and then ritually and and
honestly most most therapy is is closer to ritual.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
There's there's times where you're like laying on the shrinks
couch that's different. All the things that the guy's do
in Mexico and and things like that, like iahwuask is
that a close mix of like ritual and managed this
kind of a gray area between.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Yeah, it's interesting when I when I for a little
bit of time, I was you know, I knew the
Aubrey Marcus over it on it sponsored my my podcast
for a little bit, and you know that was right
when he and was really breaking out. That's when Joe
Rogan was having all you know, the mushroom expert on
all the time. And and it really kind of like
(17:29):
gained this you know, momentum societally to where you started
seeing it all over the place. And but still there
was this resistance within the veteran community, I think because
of all those things you've already described. But but it's
like you said, somewhere around twenty twenty, twenty one, twenty two,
(17:50):
you know, kind of like after the COVID thing, Yeah,
really woke everybody up and like, wait a minute, man,
there's another approach. That's when it kind of exploded. So
you know when you when I always hear about going
down and I've had a lot of people go down
to Peru and do the deep in the Amazon type
(18:10):
of ritual stuff. You know, some guys were like, man,
it was a lot. I'm not sure that was good.
And then you know, all the Mexico guys have all
said they loved it, and I think I probably have
you know, forty friends that have done it now. But
then there's this other aspect, this therapeutic side that I
don't think it's a lot of attention. Can you talk
(18:33):
a little bit about the therapeutic aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I can to a degree, I could talk about that
personally with me, but actually in illegal context because of
what I'm doing now, I cannot.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
We had to stay very firmly in the.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
In the religious spaces where but I will definitely say
from my first time. So my first experience was crazy,
you know. That's part of the reason I wrote the book.
It was absolute, but it was absolute Balker's very visual,
very visceral.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Can you talk tell the audience the name of the
book too, and when you wrote it?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Sure, the name of the book is Barbarian Spirit. Actually
just checked the date yesterday. It came out a year ago,
June twenty ninth.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Congratulations on that.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
By way, thank your brother.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
So in fact, you know what I'll I'll skip over
the story part that I get to. What I saw
is the benefit on the back side of it. Some
mine was intensely I mean super intensely visual. It was crazy,
and it was also a very religious experience for me,
which should a lot of these other things in motion.
But on the side like the health side. When I
(19:39):
walked out of that the next day man for the
first time, and like, I can't even tell you how
long I felt like me again, if that makes any sense.
I felt like I had like hit the reset. I
felt like I was twenty five years old to get
mentally now unfortunate my body, but it was still twenty five.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
But my head was so clear.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I mean, I swear for like two weeks after I
was done, I could feel like, actually feel like my
brain and like growing back together is what it felt like,
had so much clarity.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
The brain fog was gone.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Ambition, It's not it wasn't like crazy, it wasn't like drug,
but it was like an ambition you know where it
should be from where I'm at in life. I felt good.
I slept amazing. This has been something I've seen a
lot of other dudes to the first time sleep. Guys
have slept in twenty years. Another sleeping like nine hours
a night like a baby. And the biggest thing I
would say on like the like the feeling side of things,
(20:34):
like I felt like a different connection to my kids that.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
I'd never had before.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Yes, and that that that alone was worth like the
price of admission.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I love that. That's my favorite piece I hear the
most right is that I can finally look at my
child and connect with them on the level that they need. Yes, yes,
as opposed to being the ultimate protector the chrish. Yeah,
all that. You just let that go and now all
of a sudden you're communicating with them and they feel
(21:07):
it right. They know the difference when Dad's got the
armor on and then when dad's you know, available and right.
That I think is the most positive aspect of it.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I think only too. It's changed my relations with my
wife so much too. Uh for the positive, like all
for the positive. I feel like it's like this, I
remember if this was an original thought or some real
state of it, it's relevant. It's almost like like we
turned off all these emotions and shit, we fought the war,
right we had to u because dudes were dying.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
And it doesn't matter if your teammate got za yesterday.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
We're going fucking back out today and you can mourn
for him when we get home, and you know, people
getting fucked up, and uh.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
We do. We just cut. It's a Western way of
warfare too.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
It's very cold, very calculated, and that's required. I mean,
that's actually something they beat into us, and there's something
they select for so that we can be the guys
that we are. Is are you this kind of heartless,
fucking killing machine for the most part?
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
And the war just makes that work because we have
to now actually do these things. We turn our emotions off,
and I think in a lot of ways like we
forget or we don't know how to turn them back on.
Then that is something else that's the side effect of this.
That's really what I felt like it was for me.
It didn't like all come rushing back at once, but
I did feel like I could actually have like a
like a real like emotional connection to my children and wife.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
After that, you know, it's it's I never like before
I went in.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Man.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
You know, I always laugh when I tell people this,
but you know, I was an art major in college, right,
so yeah, a fucking I'm a hippie. You can kill you,
right yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:38):
And and and I go into teams, and I was
petrified that I was going to lose that aspect of myself.
And and and very quickly got to you know, the
transformation began, and you just you have to you have
to allow what it's It's almost like it's almost ritualistic
(22:59):
in in and of itself, right, the training is ritual yeah, right,
And and you think about those bonds not so much
the bonds that are being laid down through those instructors,
and then all of a sudden, you know, now then
you go to war, and now that's it's a whole
(23:20):
nother level of that. You know, that that that barbarian spirit,
like you describe it? Can can you talk about what
that that that means for people? Because there's gonna be
a lot of especially young young men that listen to this.
They're like they're infatuated with with you know, guys like us.
They're in such a way as a hard word, but
(23:41):
you know they look up to us. They aspire to
have that sense of confidence and the ability and prospere.
Can you describe that barbarian spirit a little bit?
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
And this is uh, this is actually something else that
came out of the psilocybin And it came from my
first time. Actually, uh was this like deep deep connection
to like an ancient warrior tradition that.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
I could not have fathomed in another way. But it
showed me.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
It showed me what it called the blood bridge, which
is back through you know, DNA and back to the time,
back to history like this is who you are and
this he related to and that was I mean, that
was amazing, and I think that as part of the
calling now for me to help our brethren specifically with
this is it wakes that up in them, and it's
a good thing. It's all a positive thing. I think
(24:30):
you have to have some let me rephrase that. I know,
you have to have some like real world experience, in
real world strength, you have to train these things, you
have to be good with weapons in the real world,
all this stuff. And this is also why I don't
think I cannot imagine giving this sacrament to like a
nineteen or twenty year old.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
They don't have the things that they.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Need yet, not at all.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
If you spend your youth all right, growing that all right,
when you pour this on top, it does it takes
you to like a different place mentally.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
It's very positive too.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
It shows you it's basically almost like another selection process
like Okay, you went up through these things and now
you can have this too. This is kind of a
power on top of the spirit power, on top of
your physical power.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So it is great. I mean it's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
It's almost like an enhancer for all of the hardship,
all of the sacrifice, all of the bloodshed, you know,
because I you know, that's the one thing I you know,
I get into these kind of philosophical metaphysical discussions with
civilians all the time and trying to help them understand, right,
to create some link for them to maybe it's they
(25:42):
all have a degree of empathy, but they don't have
a degree of understanding, right, yes, right, yeah, And so
trying to say, hey man, this stuff goes way way back.
I mean not only the warrior spirit, but I mean
there's there's all kinds of connections to plant medicine that
that goes back thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
All right, Greeks, Romans, uh, you know, pre those civilizations,
all the South American civilizations. It's funny they they've been
finding these little spoons on all the Germanic warriors, uh
that they think that they're calling them basically their meth
amphetamine spoon. But they were they were attached to their
they like he find was attached to their war belt
in front of their sword. And that's they've tested it
(26:25):
now a few times, and that is for some substances
like this, and it was it was such a part
of their their stuff that it's buried with them on
that belt.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Part of the ritual, part of the they're burying right.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and it's it looks like they probably
actually carried those to combat with them too, like they
bothered to take that along with the sword and the acts.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
It's wild, all right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Do you think we can you know, talk uh sephardic
into maybe like issueing the.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yah'd be totally dead?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Well, actually, this is a funny thing. This is real.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
We I think that we have a think all these
things came together, but we have a very slim window
with this administration that there's a possibility that we could
see at least pilot programs of this as both a
pre deployment and a post deployment, uh kind of what's
prophylactic if you will. Yes, And that would be so
amazing because that's actually part historically with the warrior class
(27:21):
of what this was used for too. For instance, I
think I can remember with comanchees or patches, but one
or the other when they came back from war parties,
they didn't get to go back to the village.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
All right, they went outside of camp with the medicine man.
All right, you'd feed them.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Some of whatever they had, payoty, whatever it was for
a couple of days and kind of wash that ship
off of them and then they could go back to civilization.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, the han Bliss, Yes, right.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yeah, it's it's exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
It's actually thought that some of the crusaders had a
ritual like this too, they just kind of kept it quiet.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
So yeah, it's not it's not without precedent.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
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(29:31):
of the things that I find fascinating is when you
dig into the history of of of how the government
came crashing down and made all these things Schedule one
drugs back in the late sixties. You know, meanwhile they're
they're doing these experiments on people in Ashbery's you having
the massive qualities of lisurgic acid right to see what
(29:53):
happens to It's just it's it's crazy. But you know,
I think now we are seeing the most recent one
was you know the Texas House and set. Yeah, overwhelmingly
with that guy Hubbard who is connected to Morgan Latrelle
and Governor Rairiy to really dig in a fifty million
dollar allotment to begin researching I be again as as
(30:18):
as a substance to help this.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
The only thing that scares me about that one is
I begain and I have not used I again, but
I begained is incredibly powerful, but it actually comes with
a health risk where like they make those guys were
like heart monitors and shit, and have like a real
doctor around when they do it. Yeah, I kind of
wish they'd started with something else, but I'm glad they're
aid doing something. And then and b that's this is
(30:41):
one of the things you discovered too, is all these
all these sacrifics have different uses. And for like, was
it opioate addiction, I begain is without question, it's the one.
I mean, it's it's the one, and I guess ayahuasca
is a close second. So I mean, there's an incredible
value in these things. I hope that turns on grain Texas.
You know, this is exactly what we need right now.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
I agree. Can you talk a little bit about some
of the reason why your proponent for psilocybin as opposed
to the others, For you know, instead of going to
the VA and what getting your handful of psychotropics in
your you know, I says, take inhibitors and your valume
and all your shit. Right, that's going to kill you, right,
(31:24):
Why psilocybin.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Because in my opinion, most of those things mask problems
and it's actually the same thing that that weed and
alcohol does. I'm not coming down on weed and alcohol either.
They have a use, but mostly those are an escape thing.
You you know, come home, drink a bot what I
used to do, because alcohol is not a drug and
weed is. Drink a fifth all right, get home from work, whatever,
(31:48):
crack open some booze, I escape my problems for eight hours.
I wake up with a hangover. Now I got to
deal with those problems again, cycle back through the day,
and do it again. Weirdly, psilocybin and especially solves problems.
They're over when you when you do it after you've
been through your ritual or whatever.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
It actually makes those problems going. It's a permanent, lasting effect.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Now, depending on how deep your problems go, you may
need you know, more cycles of it over over the
course of months and years, but it actually makes things better,
so you don't need that stuff anymore, which is I
believe that's actually one of the reasons they've they've gone
so hard in the pain about keeping it illegal. Is
I mean, you're trying to upset a trillion dollar industry,
you know, for big pharma.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
And it's funny.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Actually psilocybin was still legal in the UK up until
two thousand and five.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
You have to sell it in that and raw not
dried form, but yeah, it was totally illegal. You go
to farmer's market and buy psilocybin up until two thousand
and five.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's insane to me, is wild, But that's what you're
up against. You're up against people that they can't make
any money off you, so they're going to keep you,
you know, keep you down.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Well, I mean, that's actually that's really the funny thing.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Like with our veterans program and what we're doing, the
costs almost all the costs then bringing the guys out
and keeping them fed for three days, Like the cost
of the sacrament itself.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
Is like fifty bucks. I mean it's nothing.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Wow. Wow. Tell us about the program you're running and
first like why you wanted to start it? And then
what what did? What the program entails?
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Sure, and let me come for you.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Also why I use psilocydb WHI we're talking about because
I kind of skipped away in the last question. So
a while back, as soon as I distilocide in the
first time, I was like, I want a way to
get this to my brothers, and I did, you know,
off the books very quietly, like some of them like
my close hold foots to be like all right, man,
come on, or you know. I started getting the calls
at about like man, I'm gonna however it goes, I'm
(33:46):
gonna kill myself, Like yeah, hold on, let me add
this one for like if you you have to freeze
things differently depended on the guy if he's going to
kill himselbject like I'm just gonna off myself, Like hey man,
you're gonna kill yourself anyway, why don't you just hang
out for a minute.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I'm gonna come over.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
We're gonna get high as fuck on some different stuff
and it's gonna be totally cool. And if it's not,
you know whatever, I leave on Monday. You get off yourself.
I'll even wait in the parking lot.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
I'll call you.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
I'll call the cops. So your wipe this, find your body,
be great, show up, ma'am. Get in a sacrament eight
hours later, like that was amazing, holy ship something like, no,
you know that life is too amazingly awesome. I'm going home.
Uh so I knew that that is.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
And it is that intense. You see it on their faces. Yeah,
and that's what's so insane. And and it's that what
is it? It's it's deeper than relief. It's it's it's
a revelatory, right, yeah, Like it all kind of falls off,
and now all of a sudden there's like, oh, wait,
you mean there's a solution, there's a there's an opportunity exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
No, it's an like that. You also know your job's
done and you're like, yeah, this is this guy's good.
He's straight, Like I can leave right now. He's good.
Uh So I I wanted a way to get this
to my guys and everyone actually, and with the suicide
epidemic that we're seeing in the United States period, not
just amongst veterans.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I mean, it's it's insane. Some cases it's gone of
like fifty percent in the last twenty years.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
These are actually things that I wasn't thinking about though
for probably the first year that I used psilocybin, and
it was about maybe maybe six or eight months ago
that I felt the like the calling, like this kind
of calling to start this uh, this this church uh.
And it had to be this way for a variety
(35:36):
of reasons. And it kind of in a weird way,
it kind of had to be me too, because I
already wrote something that's very much counts as a holy
book about psilocybin man, and it's it's also weirdly, I
think why he gave me an odd path, like why
he came to me in this Norse pagan tradition, which
(35:59):
didn't make a lot of sense at the time.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I was gonna run with it because that's what happened.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Right when you're called, you're called.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Right when it's when you're done with like that should
be like couldn't you like pick something that was leasier, like, no,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You know that from a long time.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
That will get the easy path, brother, But it does.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Give us a an iron clad uh you know, uh
link to a ten thousand year old tradition of using
psilocybins specifically, so you know honestly too. I've before I
started this, I tried a couple other things, like I
tried LSD. I didn't really care for it. There are
people that can use that as a therapeutic or in
(36:43):
a ritual manner. I won't, just because I don't think
that it agrees with our systems what we need.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
NDMA is also great.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
I do work with that one as well, but I
firmly believe that psilocybin is the sacrament that you use
first because it's such a wide spectrum thing. It's it
helps with so many things as well as it's the
one that turns suicidal thought off, like like a light switch.
And it's funny because I didn't really under I didn't
think of it as the suicide off switch until about
(37:13):
like six eight months ago I started putting the paperwork
together to do this, uh this organization. I had to
go back and think I'm like, wait, it does do that,
And that actually did that for me, and it did
it so well that I never thought about it again,
Like I forgot that that was even yet. It was
like in a race that it had ever been a
thing forever. And I don't know how many dudes you
(37:36):
know that have that have had this one. I wasn't
like hyper depressed, like I'm gonna kill myself. I did
go through that phase like when I first got out
for a minute, but you know, I wasn't going to
go through with it.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
The second one that I see amongst veterans is the
uh they get to this point where they just.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
Like wake up and they're like what am I doing? Man?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Like I already did the cool height. You know, I
was writing helicopters. Now I'm going to work at the
fuck Crab Macaroni Chiefe factory. Maybe it's just all over.
I've seen help with that one, and I've been through
that one too. Now, neither of those two were gonna
affect me after my sons were born, because now I'm
so committed to them. But the third one, I actually
went through this one as well. I'm calling it suicide
(38:18):
by other means you've seen it like that, like the
weird shit, Like there was an absolute legend of the
Special Forces Regiment that overdosed on heroin six months after
he retired. No, yeah, and at the time.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
We're like, what the what the fuck? Like fucking heroin
and you don't get it. But once you've been retired
and you're out of the system and you're having all
these things on this flood and survivors built like, it's like,
oh fuck, man, yeah, I get it now. Like he
offed himself. He just it just didn't. It's not going
to show up in the status that's what he did,
or you.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Know, drinking and driving it, you know, incredibly high rates
to sea because you just don't care. A lot of
guys die that way too. That should count in the
suicide column. But I you know, I would say I
was past that one too, the one that I was
still having. And this is so fucking weird, the impulsive thought.
So you know, I've been around guns my entire life,
and I did like gun journalism for a while. If
(39:08):
very retired. I was a competitive shooter. There's I mean,
there's fucking guns everywhere. There's like fifteen guns in my
office right here about like I don't know, two or
three times a week, I would just be like walking
by something and I would have this impulsive thought like
you should pick that gun up and shoot yourself.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
And I'd be like, you know, I'd be like like,
oh fuck, like oh wait, wait, hold on, no other symptoms,
no depression, just I don't know what the fuck it was,
but it was. It was. It was all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
You know.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It wasn't like every day, but it was. It was frequent.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Psilocybin turned that off to the point that I forgot
it even happened until I started looking suicide statistics again.
I'm like, oh, fuck, man, like, how many guys have
how many guys have a had that same impulsive thought?
I think of a fucking TBI. I think it's actually
like demonic whisper. Now may we're a little damage from
from being over in the fucking land of gins or whatever.
(40:00):
How many dudes have gone through with it, and of
course there was no symptoms. It's just an impulsive, fucking
snap decision. But it makes that one completely go away. Yeah,
I mean some wild shit. So so what I did
is I found in this organization. We're calling it a
Path of Barbarian Spirit and it is a faith based organization.
(40:20):
But what we're doing is we're going to build a
small retreat on some land that I've already bought in
the ozarks. Ptilocybin itself, from my experience, also works best
in nature anyway. It's very much like a primal enhancer.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (40:32):
And then also when.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
We think about like us, like the hard shit that
we did, especially like training all right, when you were
going through buds and I was going through the Q course,
it wasn't about like technology and goggles.
Speaker 3 (40:43):
It was doing hard.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Shit in the woods with some bullshit and getting bit
by ticks and triggers, being the cold az ocean, all
this like nature stuff.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
So we'd put veterans back in that type of environment.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And we're using yurts instead of buildings, so it's it's
still like being a fucking tint yep. It puts them
back in this natural space that really helps the reset
on the back side of the ritual.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Uh, it is amazing.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
I you know what I love to hear is I
love to hear that these stories like yours because it
means that dudes are not giving up there. And then
not only are they not giving up. But you're in
that same Green Beret spirit, right, you're you're you're freeing
(41:32):
the oppressed, right yeah, Like, and the oppressed is our
brothers in their minds, the oppressed is more importantly the
oppression of their souls, yes, from what what they volunteered
to do to expose themselves to. So I love the
fact that you you're it's a it's a religious in
nature aspect to it, because I mean, you know, you
(41:53):
go back and you think about, you know, some of
the greatest you know, warrior cultures in history, they all
have have that component built into it. But yet in
the modern era, you know, seeming even post World War One,
when you know, you had all those guys rioting in
in d C because they're like, hey, you screwed us over.
(42:14):
That's the common place now, and so once again it's
on us to take care of our brothers in a
way that's ritualistic, that that that has that barbarian spirit,
that has that warrior ethos still ingrained in it, and
and getting rid of all the other what is it?
It's it's it's it's it's deeper than the lie or
(42:38):
the the the illusion of support of the VA or whatever.
It's just like it's like we're done with you. Yes,
like you've served your purpose and and for us now
it's like no, no, no, no, your purpose is even
more important. Now. What are some of the things that
you guys talk about in those retreats?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, dude, this is actually let me back once, that
usually important.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
This is one of the other ways that I know
was divine intervention.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Is because I'm not this fucking smart.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
There is there's.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Actually an obstacle also, like I love what like like
that I think is doing an heroic card other I
love what they're doing, but there's a there's a there's
a built in problem with it, and that's that a
lot of dudes will not go to Mexico and they
will sure as fuck not go to Mexico to do
drugs in a sketchy situation with people that they don't know.
And that's what it sounds like. No matter how I
I I church it up. If this is a healing retreat,
(43:33):
that's how I would have thought about it. Honestly, like
three years ago when I started to three being like,
hey man, we got to go to TJ and be
like the fuck we are, Like we're not. Uh, And
I understand why they've done this, and I understand why
they continue to do this, but it's divine intervention and
that he gave me a pathway that we can legally
(43:55):
do this in the United States because we're not a therapy.
Were our First Amendment and a Restoring Religious Freedom Act
protected religious activity, and so we can bring guys to
us in the fucking woods in Arkansas, and we are
one hundred percent legit and able to do this. And
(44:16):
I'm actually looking at us as like the paramedics of
this thing. We can give them this first little dose.
All right, some guys, that's gonna be enough. Some guys
are gonna stick with the spiritual path that I'm on.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
That's cool, that's awesome. Uh. Some guys are gonna it's
gonna passionate just enough.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
They're gonna know that they have, I mean, real fucking
problems that we can't fix and they need to go
to Mexico and get one of the other therapeutics, or
they need to go to a a real like headshrink
and not be religious guy and get some some some therapy.
And that's all totally cool. We're totally gonna make that work.
Uh yeah, So, I mean it's it's been amazing.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Well, I mean Clay, I just uh once I I
just it's apped in my head. I was like, oh
my god, you know he's he's got this whole thing.
It's a program, it's focused, he wrote the book. I
was just like, man, I just got to bring him
on so he can share with us, with with the
(45:14):
people out there and let people know what's going on
and that they're, in particular are our brothers that are
all struggling right now. So thank you so much for
coming on and for sharing what you're doing. Is there
any way people can donate to it, like your church?
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Yea, yeah, absolutely so we have If you go over
to barbarinscrew dot com, there's a page for donations.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
We have a gifts and go up right now.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
We've actually developed some if I guess I'm lame on
the desk here, we developed some merchandise specifically.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
For this because yes, we need we need money. We
need that. Well, the other thing we need to do is
raise awareness this is happening.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
So we made some stuff that is specifically for raising
awareness that psilocybin solves this problem. So that's my twenty
two grand between two fish up stickers. It's a twofold thing. Yeah,
we need fund to build our shit out and bring
guys in. We also need all the guys to know
like this works, because there's other ways to get it.
And man, people are hurting right now. Fuck bro, if
(46:14):
you are hurting right now, probably start calling Somebody's got something.
Somebody can square you away, and you're gonna love this
next part. This is uh, this is honest. This is
where we apply the green Bray model to future for
this because this is not intended to be like one
little church in the woodside. We've got to build that
first because we had to have a base of operations.
We are looking at the concept of training our own
(46:37):
priest class to be able to do this and have
their own franchises all of the United States. And honestly,
after we fight the the first couple of little legal battles,
it's it's not even denominational at that point, Like we're
going to have Christian priests that come out of this.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
We're going to have, you know, Buddhist priests that come
out of this.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
That's fucking totally cool, all right, we will still keep
you in our circle of protection here, UH will show
you how to do these rituals and these focused things.
It will help you raise funds for your franchise when
you get there. We're also looking in the near future
building a parallel nonprofit.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
All right.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
If there are things that we can do on the
religious side and there are things that people can do
on the medical research side, never show those two cross.
But if we build a nonprofit that's parallel that we
can staff with you know, some X officer nerds and
you know, neurooscientists and probably a shrink or two. All Right,
they can't come over and dictate protocol in the church.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
I have to do that. But hypothetically, on the back
side of this, if any.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Of our guys, once they've gone through this, or while
they're going through this, would like to come over and
share their brain scan data in an anonymous way or talk
with these people that do medical research very much off
of my camp in the camp next door. We can
do a lot of damage in a very short amount
of time.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
Wow, well, Clay, Uh, I wish you all the best, man.
I'm praying for you and and and your team, and
I just can't thank you enough for coming on and
sharing this. Where where can people follow you? And how
can they get in touch?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Uh? Mostly we've got a contact point over at Barbarian
Spirit dot com.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
I spent a lot of more time than I should
on Twitter. I'm way off the brace.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
You don't stop that.
Speaker 3 (48:29):
I can't. IM an addict.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
We're not great on the other social media platforms you have,
and we're getting there. But yeah, I mean yeah, please
come check us out. Look at what we've done. A
couple of bucks help us out by some merchant. Just
tell your friend, tell your friends that this works. That's
going to help us. Came on minim into this awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Thank you brother, God bless you.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I thank you brother,
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