May 14, 2025 • 36 mins
Hour 3 of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show delivers a gripping mix of legal analysis, cultural commentary, and political insight, with a spotlight on the high-profile criminal trial of music mogul Sean “Diddy” Combs. The hosts begin by recapping the major themes from earlier in the show, including Donald Trump’s successful Middle East diplomacy and the media’s ongoing reckoning with its alleged cover-up of President Joe Biden’s cognitive decline. However, the focus quickly shifts to the explosive courtroom drama unfolding in New York City.
Clay and Buck dive into the disturbing details of the Diddy trial, where the hip-hop icon faces serious federal charges including sex trafficking, racketeering, and obstruction of justice. They analyze the viral hotel surveillance footage from 2016 showing Diddy assaulting his then-girlfriend Cassie, and question whether the prosecution can prove criminal conduct beyond a reasonable doubt. While acknowledging the grotesque and abusive behavior described in court, the hosts emphasize the legal distinction between immoral conduct and criminal liability.
The conversation intensifies with the arrival of guest Paul Mauro, a former NYPD inspector and legal analyst, who offers expert insight into the prosecution’s strategy. Mauro explains the significance of the RICO charges, the potential involvement of flipped witnesses from Diddy’s inner circle, and the implications of a sex trafficking charge involving a minor. He also discusses the jury composition—eight men and four women—and how that dynamic could influence the trial’s outcome.
Clay raises critical questions about the prosecution’s decision to lead with Cassie’s testimony, suggesting it may be the weakest part of the case due to the consensual nature of their decade-long relationship. Mauro agrees that the prosecution must overcome the perception that Cassie’s involvement was transactional rather than coerced. They also explore the broader cultural implications, comparing Diddy’s fall from grace to other disgraced celebrities like Harvey Weinstein and R. Kelly, and questioning how such behavior was tolerated for so long by the entertainment elite.
The hour wraps up with a lighter segment featuring listener talkbacks, including humorous anecdotes about grocery store mishaps and a listener pledging to drink coffee despite an allergy—just to support Clay and Buck’s patriotic Crockett Coffee brand.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back in the hour of a three Clay Travis
buck Sexton Show. Appreciate all of you hanging out with us.
We are rolling through. We're going to talk to Paul
Morrow at the bottom of the hour, who has been
in the trial I believe in New York City, which
is starting to get a great deal of attention.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
First couple of hours. Here's what we've been talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
The incredible productivity of Trump's trip to the Middle East,
analyzing everything associated with that, the continued fallout of the
cover up of Joe Biden's mental and physical deterioration, which
is now captivating the media in advance of the release
of the book Original Sin, which is going to tell
(00:41):
all of you all of the things that we have
been telling you for years but did tell you to
be fair, that all of this would come out in
the wake of the election, and that all of the
true stories about Biden's mental and physical decline behind closed
doors would in fact eventually go public. And that is
where we are as Democrats are unable to figure out
(01:03):
how to respond, and the CNNs and the MSNBC's of
the world, the journalists in quotation marks that are on
air at those networks. All of those individuals are now
scrambling to try to get out of the mess that
they have made themselves by now claiming, oh, it was
(01:25):
a cover up. Nobody could have known. But we've broken
down all of that big story. However, in the criminal
justice system New York City, it feels like has had
one big trial after another. They had the sham Trump prosecution,
both the civil case and then also the Alvin Bragg
case in New York City. We had the trial of
(01:50):
the subway hero who was charged with manslaughter, second degree murder.
I don't even remember exactly what those charges were, but
he was found not guilty. We had the Menendez gold
Bars trial, Senator Menendez and his wife both convicted in
New York City courts. And now we have got puff
(02:10):
Daddy aka Didty aka Sean Combs. I think I'm just
gonna call him Ditty on the show because it's only
one word and it's easier and buck, you and I
were talking about this off air. This went mega viral.
Everybody almost on the planet saw the twenty sixteen hotel
video of Diddy running out with the I think he
(02:34):
was still in a towel and beating up his girlfriend Cassie,
So background, if you have n't been following this case.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
She filed a.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Explosive civil lawsuit seeking monetary damages for what she claimed
was outrageous behavior perpetrated against her by Ditty in a
multi year consensual relationship. I believe they were boyfriend girlfriend
for a decade. Producer, Ali, I believe you have been
following this case somewhat closely too. So if I get
(03:06):
any of these facts wrong or you want to step
in and say, actually, Clay, that just I'm trying to
set the table for people who might not have been
following this.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It is a criminal trial.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Diddy had been housed with Sam Bankman Freed, among others,
that is, celebrities that were being held in this New
York City cell as they awaited trial. And so the
case has gone to trial. Did he faces potentially the
rest of his life in prison for sexual racketeering, basically
(03:41):
crossing state lines, prostitution allegations, all of these things. And
I'm gonna be honest with you, Buck, I have been
reading everything that Cassie is testifying too, and based on
what I have seen, and by the way, eight hundred
two two eight A two, if any of you are
following this and want to weigh in as well. I
don't think that this is criminal behavior beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Well that's my take, and you and I have talked
about it. I don't think you mind me sharing. It's grotesque, reprehensible,
and demonic behavior. But not a good dude. Not he's
a very bad person. Yes, he's a very bad person.
I know, judge not lest you be judged. Yeah, this
guy's a very bad person. But the criminal accounts that
(04:27):
they're going after him on. I tend to agree with Clay.
I am not sure that they are likely to get
beyond a reasonable doubt on them. And that's not to
say that he isn't horrible, But for example, beating a woman,
that's assault, it's disgraceful. Is that past the statute of
limited I'm talking about just the simple assault that we
saw on that's what they call it. That has passed
(04:48):
the that I believe in LA had passed the statute
of limitations. Yeah, and so is that? So then the
the violence counts that you could bring under other circumstances
are past the statual limitations. So this is why they've
gone for this Ricoh, operating a criminal conspiracy across state
lines prostitution thing, and the problem becomes very quickly, I
(05:12):
think for the prosecution here, uh, this is you know,
are these people who were being given lavish gifts and
you know, rides on private jets but not in a
quid pro quo for sexual services situation?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And then also was there any actual coerd like can
you prove coercion? You know, I don't want to not
be invited to the next party, for example, would not
be coercion, or you know, or or I don't want
to upset somebody who's a very powerful in my industry.
I don't think that's criminal coercion. Do this or I'm
going to hit you or hurt you is coercion? Right,
(05:47):
So these are the Again I read up on this
a little bit this morning. I tend to not I'm
not a what's the what's the thing that everyone is
a true crime I'm not a big true crime guy
in general. But I would say this Clay to the
degree that this is of interest to our audience at all.
And we'll talk to Paul Mora, who is a true
crime guy because he worked as a deputy inspector, which
(06:09):
is just a couple of rungs below commissioner for the NYPD.
This is why this is so big. Puff Daddy was,
or Sean Combs formerly Puff Daddy then P Diddy, maybe
the biggest star in the hip hop world for about
a decade, I would say, and perhaps when hip hop
music was at its actual cultural peak. You could make
(06:33):
this is an argument. But I mean, I grew up
in a New York City. I mean, oddly enough, I
grew up next door to P Didty for a number
of years he lived, and I mean next door, Like
I used to see him on the street when I
was a high school kid. All the time. I would
see his entourage. I saw his baby blue Bentley convertible,
which was a very rare car, then parked out front
some of the biggest security guys you have ever seen
(06:54):
in your life standing around all the time. So I
mean I was very aware of of Shawn Combs at
the time. Clay, this guy was an absolute celebrated cultural
phenomenon for years by all the elites. I mean, you know,
I can't even begin If you're looking for photos, I'm
(07:15):
sure there's photos them with the Clintons, and I'm sure
there's photos of them with Anna Winter a vogue And
I mean, this guy was the absolute pinnacle of music
culture and entrepreneurial success for a number of years. But
people knew about some of this stuff. People knew that
there was very bad stuff going on in the background.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's not dissimilar in some ways from Harvey Weinstein, right,
Like everybody in Hollywood was like, oh, how could we.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Have known depending on these allegations being true or not,
or someone like an R. Kelly where there was also
a tremendous amount of smoke and fire as we found
out in that case. This case, well, this is where
you get into the parsing.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
There's horrible behavior. There's grotesque behavior, which Shawn Combe is
absolutely I mean, this guy should have should like be
completely expelled from public life.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And no matter what happens to this strial.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
What he did is the the abuse of women and
the the just the grotesque behavior, and that is a
matter of public record that he does not dispute. He
just disputes that these things violated the law. Things that
we really can't talk to you about on radio, like
it would get it would get into that it's inappropriate.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And also you don't really need to hear it.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
But it's about as grotesque as you can imagine sexual stuff,
more grotesque, I think than a lot of you can imagine.
But I just think it's it's another moment here, Clay
where how many of these like cultural icons so you
know in quotes, right, So it's I mean he was
for a while, are able to get away with horrific
(08:48):
I mean you look at you look at this stuff
against Cosby, you look at r. Kelly, you look at
Harvey Weinstein. I mean you know, and I'm not leaving
out anyone on purpose, right, and you go, you know,
the allegations again Michael Jackson, whether one believes them or not,
is a whole other thing. These are some of the
biggest people in our culture, and people around them knew
(09:09):
that weird or deeply criminal stuff was going on, and
no one comes forward, no one says anything for years,
for decades.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
What does that say?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, the only reason this is public now is because
Cassie filed the lawsuit. So if I were analyzing this
from a legal perspective, I have no idea why he
didn't settle the lawsuit, as he had an opportunity to
do before it went public, because the minute that it
went public, I think he settled for eight figures ten
(09:41):
million dollars or more within a day of the lawsuit
being public. So what did he What did his legal
team not see here? Because essentially the charges that are
brought against him entirely come out of the civil complaint
that she filed. But here's my thing. And look, there's
a jury of twelve that's going to decide eight men
(10:02):
for women based on the opening of the prosecution's case.
I don't think they have proven that he committed a
crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, my big takeaway if
I were sitting on the jury is this, she dated
him for a decade. I'm not saying again to your
point that he didn't engage in a lot of bad behavior.
(10:25):
Bad behavior is not necessarily criminal, And if you were
dating someone for a decade, it's hard for me to
argue that you were coerced into behavior for a full decade.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You could have left, right. I know you agree with that.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I do think it's necessary to just bad behavior is like,
you know, stepping out on your wife or something.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Okay, like that's bad behavior.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
This guy was engaged systematically for years and years in demonic.
I don't think anybody should listen to his music ever again,
or be seen with him in public ever again. Behavior.
And that's not even the criminal stuff. I just mean
the stuff that he's admitted to.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Okay, And remember he said publicly that he couldn't vote
for Trump because of allegations about Trump's behavior, which is
just hysterical on so many levels, because even the worst
things that have been said about Trump are a pinprick
of what has been alleged in this trial that he
was involved in. Right, So there's a lot of this
Hollywood finger wagging related to Trump that has been do
(11:32):
as I say, not as I myself have done. Having
said all of that, I don't understand what the actual
crime here is beyond a reasonable doubt that he is
guilty of based on the first few days of it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
The trial is underway, and we'll talk to Paul Marr
about that. I will tell you that Clay has been
known for a long time, and again I think as
a New Yorker at the time who lived next door
to him, I was particularly aware of the reporting on this.
You know, there was a whole incident with a with
a gunfire at a nightclub and it was alleged that
it was it was his gun and he tried to
pay off a guy in the entourage.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Oh yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Are widely believed and you know, known stories of him
violently assaulting and threatening other music producers and record executives
and you know, in their offices. I think he beat
a guy with a wine bottle and he had to
go to the hospital. I mean, he got away with
this stuff for a long time. Yes, it's because he
was powerful, But also I think that I think that
prosecutors didn't want to bring down an icon. I don't
(12:31):
think that they wanted her to go after somebody who
was found a self made billionaire from the black community
who was being held up as an incredibly important and
powerful cultural figure. I think he got a pass for
a long time on a lot of criminal stuff. I mean,
just look at the hotel camera stuff that didn't come
out until now. Well, he was found not guilty on
(12:52):
the shooting charges, and the guy who he was with
went to prison for years and basically said, hey, I
took the rod. That the whole point was that he
got paid you know, the whole story was that he
got paid off to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But this story I don't think is gonna go away.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
We'll talk about it at the bottom of the hour
as it is currently underway. And if there were cameras,
this would be like the Johnny Depp amber heard story.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
That is just you can't So Lawyer Clay is very
honed in on and we'll talk to Paul Morrow about
this as well. From the investigator and law enforcement standpoint
in a few minutes. Glora Clay is very honed in
on the legal the legality or illegality of the situation,
which makes perfect sense. It's funny. I just can't get beyond,
and we as a country should be a shame that
we hold people like this up.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Ever, honestly, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
There should really be some soulser And for a lot
of you are like, oh, I don't listen to if
you grew up in you know, from nineteen ninety four
until like I want to say, the year two thousand,
Sean P. Diddy Combs. You know you're hearing this song.
You're hearing his music everywhere. He's at the Empty you know,
the MTV Music Awards, he's at the you know v Age,
(14:01):
you know all the different what are you called the Grammys,
and he's at all these things.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
He's held up. He is the toast of the town.
And the guy is a horrible human being. I mean really,
and people knew about it and they just didn't say anything.
A billionaire.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
He's a billionaire now, not just you know, somewhat successful,
legitimately a billionaire.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
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You can.
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Speaker 1 (16:26):
You know him as conservative radio hosts, Now just get
to know them as guys on this Sunday hang podcast
with Clay and Fuck. Find it in their podcast feed
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back in play traps Buck second show. Appreciate all
of you hanging out with us. We got a bunch
(16:49):
of different people weighing in on a variety of different subjects.
Oh man, I'm just gonna start a war here. First
of all, here's podcast listener Liz ff.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Hey, guys, I love the show. Listen every day. Hey.
As far as going to the grocery store and not
finding what you need or getting the wrong thing, it
does go both ways. I never go to the parts
store for my husband unless he calls ahead first and
gets the part ordered that he wants for me to
pick up. And I don't allow him to tell me
(17:24):
what it is because I want plausible deniability anyway, I
just want to let you know that so good.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Actually, I don't think I would be great at going
to the auto parts store and trying to figure out
things there either, So that is a good policy. We've
got a bunch of funny responses there. We'll hit some
of those, but we got our buddy Paul Morrow, who's
gonna join us from inside of that ditty trial tell
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Speaker 3 (18:56):
All right, welcome back into Clay and Buck with some
law enforce and legal expertise here. Our friend Paul Morrow
is back, former NYPD inspector. He's an attorney as well,
founder of opsdesk dot org and a Fox News contributor
inspect tomorrow. Great to have you back on the show, sir.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Great to be with you guys.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
All right, so I know it's early stages.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You might have heard a little bit of what we were
talking about before with the Sean Combs trial.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
A lot of.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Really grotesque stuff, salacious stuff that is considered I think
a matter of fact and public record now on both sides.
But is it going to be able to be proven
beyond a reasonable doubt that it is criminal?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
What are you seeing so far?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
How are you viewing the likelihood of well, whichever outcome
here in this trial?
Speaker 6 (19:47):
So what I'm seeing is the prosecutor's strategy, right, and
it's way way too early, I would argue to be
able to come to some sort of a conclusion as
to the likelihood of his conviction. What the prosecution very
clearly is doing is establishing right up front that, as
you guys put it, not a good guy, okay, and
that the acts involved here are horrific. That in and
(20:08):
of itself, however, it does not supply enough beyond a
reasonable doubt for a conviction. But by establishing that right
up from the get go, first of all, you shade
you color the perceptions of the jury going forward in
regard to everything here. That's kind of going on in
the Karen Reid case as well, by the way, but
you gotta rumber something the charges here. He's the only
(20:29):
guy charged, and you have a Rico allegation here along
with some other charges, and that means that there are
other members of the organization and they were not charged,
which means almost certainly there's some flips coming. And that
is to say, people that are members of this organization
who are gonna come in and they're gonna button up
in the prosecution's mind, they're gonna button up the piece
(20:51):
that you guys are saying is potentially missing. And I'm
not disagreeing with you, we just haven't gotten to it yet.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
You're gonna have.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Testimony, I would argue, where they are going to put
forth the idea that he had an organization, that it
was coercive, and then there's all this other stuff marveled
throughout it, including guns, drugs, physical assaults, even some allegations
of arson. It's gonna get very very volatile, very lurid,
and that's what they're going to put their meat on
(21:18):
the bones of the indictment as it's written.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Why do you think they started with Cassie, his girlfriend,
she is the first witness bringing the case, because to me,
that is the most salacious, but it actually and I'm
curious how you would analyze this is one that he
might have the best defense for because she was with
him for a decade and if you truly felt like
(21:42):
you were being mistreated. I think most people, right, I
think most people out there, if they were in a
decade long relationship and you kept in that relationship, a
lot of people would say, hey, she had to have
consented to a lot of this. She wasn't necessarily coerced.
Right to me, starting with this actually offers him the
(22:05):
best defense, whereas if they had started with, hey, let
me get into some of the particulars of what we
think were criminal behavior, maybe by people who were his
former colleagues, former co workers, people that he employed. It
actually looks more like a clinical crime than a broken relationship,
clearly between a guy and a girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a very smart observation,
because you're right, that is very much the dynamic in
this and we've seen that from the get go. Because
notice that Colmes' defense Okay, who is Mark Agnifflow, by
the way, a very very competent and experience attorney. His wife, Karenygniffolo,
is actually the defense attorney for the Manjione case. She's
(22:47):
got Manngion. So they're well known here in New York
City criminal circles. They both work for the Manhattan DIA's office,
probably around when you were their fuck with us in
New York.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, but that's it.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah, so you know they've been around in Nay not.
He's very competent Atorney.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
There's a lot of high profile cases, so you know,
he's got very good representation here. But what he's done, Clay,
is what the prosecution has done, excuse me, which is
a two female prosecutors are the part of the team.
One for him, by the way, is the daughter of
James Komy. That James Komy, his daughter is one of
the prosecutors. So this stuff is all very New York
(23:20):
at this point. But one of the things they're going
to do now is to confront the dynamic Clay that
you're talking about subsequent to Cassie. And as I said,
what they did upfront is just put the black head
on calms. They made him a bad guy to the
point that even his defense had to say, hey, you
know what is a bad guy. He's a domestic abuser.
(23:40):
But that doesn't make him a rico purp. That doesn't
make him a sex trafficker. Right, They're trying to draw
that distinction. So now everything is going to be colored
by that. But the question you pose is now, what
the prosecution has to overcome, which is was it simply transactional?
Was Cassie hanging around? She had ample opportunity to get away.
(24:02):
Was she hanging around because she was getting something out
of it? And this whole thing was kind of consensual,
which is going to be the defense, And that occurs.
That dynamic occurs in all these cases. We saw it
in Epstein, and we saw it in Weinstein. You know,
in the Harvey Weinstein case, she had a similar thing,
right like, I was all transactionally. I knew what they
were getting into. And this comes down to a little
(24:23):
bit of the evolution of America's sort of perception of
these things. You're seeing it in the Menedez case where
the argument is and it's been a winning argument so far,
to my shock, that we have progressed over the decades
in our understanding of certain dynamics in these things, and
as a result, we understand them better and we have
to treat them differently. And so it's going to come
down to exactly I think what you have put on
(24:45):
the table, which is how much the other members of
Combs's organization, because I'm telling you those that's who's coming here.
Because it's a RINCO, right, There's going to be other
members of the organization. They're not charge So where is everybody?
They're coming on a prosecution's case, gonna have to say
he had control of her, she didn't have independent will,
he threatened her, he beat her up, she didn't feel
(25:07):
like she could leave, and you gonna have all kinds
of other allegations about how he controlled this organization. And
that's gonna be what a rub hits the road.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
We'll gonna Paul.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
This goes to my next question for you, which my
understanding here, and this was from early on in the case,
and I checked to make sure they already know that
they found illegal drugs, a lot of the quote large
quantities of cocaine and meth, and illegal firearms. That's actually
something I do know quite a bit about because if
you've got illegal fire it was down here in Florida's
(25:37):
actually in Miami is where I live. And I think
he had the serial numbers filed off on some AR
Fifteen's a big, big no no. Now, this this comes
up in the Rico case. But if they've got him
on those can they just get him separately on those
illegal possession charges and I asked, because also, to me,
(26:00):
dedicates they must think they've got something really good on them, right,
because back in the day, if they can get them
on the illegal drugs and illegal guns, why not just
put them away for years on that? They must think
that they can prove this conspiracy at a higher level.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Yeah, another smart question. So understand something. He's got other charges.
Everybody is focusing on the Rico charge because that's the
thing that tracks to like the mafia, Gravano flipped Doungatti.
We've all heard those threes. But there are other charges here.
I'm going to point one of them out. One of
them is that there isn't a gun charge here in
the superseding indictment. There is a drug charge. However, all right,
he's got a drug distribution charge. So there is that,
(26:36):
and that's recent because that's when when the HSI did
the raid.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
He's also got an obstruction charge and that almost certainly
goes to the twenty sixteen thing where he tells is
he flores the head the manager, don't do anything with
this tape. You got to cover up this tape somehow.
Rather they brought the statute on that forward. I'll be
curious to see how they do that. But relative to
these other charges that are here, those remain on the
(27:00):
table as an option for him. And you know, the
one that's actually more serious than the RICO is the
sex trafficking case because and here's why, And this is
the thing I want to tease out. This is eighteen
title eighteen USC fifteen ninety one. Anybody can look it up.
It's not it sounds very loyally. Just look those numbers up.
This is sex trafficking of a minor, and that's trouble
(27:23):
for him because that carries life and the statute of limitations.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Sorry to cut you off on that. Who is the minor?
Do we know anything about that?
Speaker 6 (27:32):
You know?
Speaker 5 (27:33):
No, I don't, And that's not going to be a
very good chance.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
You're not going to hear that name because obviously it's
a minor, so we may hear in some vague terms.
And I don't know if the person is going to testify.
But eighteen fifteen ninety one, which nobody's really talking about it.
I looked for this interview. I had a lot of
the same questions you guys do, so I started looking
into the actual indictment. I pulled down the PDF as
opposed to talking about it off of People magazine, and
(27:57):
I see that it jumps right out of me.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
Who's this?
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yah, I didn't know that. Let me ask you this,
eight men for women on the jury? Am I a
awful And the answer may be very much yes, awful sexist, mischauvinist.
If I'm diddy, I want as many men on this
trial as I can get, because I think guys are
more likely in New York City to look at this
(28:21):
and be like, hey, these women are getting on these planes.
They're consenting to travel all over the world to go
to ditty parties. They weren't just getting flown around for free.
They understood that. Again, this is what I'm arguing. If
I'm the defense attorney, do you think that the fact
that he got eight men knowing that he only needs
one to refuse to convict right to say, hey, this
(28:43):
is reasonable doubt? If you were the defense attorney, would
you want more men on this jury than women? Do
you think that draw is better for him?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (28:53):
I mean, I look, you know that probably makes me
an awful, terrible, horrible sexist person as well, But it
also means that we're both living in the real world, right, Yeah,
the answer would be yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
Now that said, as.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
I said earlier, you know, the understanding of these sorts
of things have very much evolved, and I don't think
there's any denying that as a society we appreciate the
control that an abuser can have over the abused, and
our understanding of that dynamic has come a long long way.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
So you know, it's a.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
Very blanket statement and we have to be careful with
how we frame that. But yeah, of course, because women
are just going to be more understanding of that situation
they may have experienced themselves and not. You know, it's
not always men controlling women. It can be the reverse,
but let's speak factually, generally, it is one, especially when
it's physical. You know, it's men over women. This goes
(29:45):
almost to the argument of men and women's sports. Men
just have stronger bodies in a general sense, and blah
blah blah. You guys notice, So, yeah, you're thinking in
terms of men who are going to look at this
thing and say to themselves, eh, this was transactional. Cassie
so anyway, is the main witness here, and she stayed
with him for eleven years. How is that possible. There
(30:06):
must have been a point where she could have gotten
out of the limo, run into the police station and
spoken her piece, and she didn't do that until years
later when she decides to file a civil suit, which
carries a monetary imperative. Right, there's a motive embedded in
that that she's going to get paid, and you know,
not coincidentally, her records, her music wasn't exactly number one
(30:30):
at that point, so there's going to be this implication
that she did it for money, and ultimately she got
what she wanted. He settled the day after, as you
guys said, So yeah, and it just comes down to
whether the jury buys it.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And you know, there's also the reverse.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Some of the men may feel like, you know what,
I got to make sure that I don't come across
as the guy you're talking about, Clay, and so maybe
they're going to lean more into being protective. Oh and others.
So we'll say, let.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Me ask you this, Paul, because you on it. He
settled this case one day after the civil suit was filed.
Leave aside the criminal The only reason he's getting charged
criminally is because that civil case went public. He settled
it for reportedly eight figures. Is this one of the
all time miscalculations that you can think of? The guy's
(31:19):
a billionaire if he settles this case he had the
opportunity to before it ever went public. None of this
probably ensues, because the entire case seems to have been
a roadmap based on that civil complaint. What a colossal
miscalculation this was, especially because you already went ahead and
settled it for you know, ten for ten million dollars
(31:41):
or more the day after it was filed.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Yeah, you know, look, we don't know the backstory, and
there almost certainly is one. I would suspect that in
light of the blizzard of civil suits that resulted from
his settlement with her, and it's just been a steamroller,
you know, it's been an ongoing thing, he may have
decided that he was being blackmailed, and he may have
said to himself, you know what, Look, I just gave
(32:06):
her ten million. Now people that I said alow to
in the street are coming after me for you're ten million,
alleging that I did this something similar. And I have
to stop here at some point and just say, you
know what, I can't do it. I have to call
BS because this could go on forever, and even a
billionaire like me, you know, I could be bankrupt. He
didn't put out any music for a long time. He
had put out a more recent album, and he was
kind of like the way I read it, and I'm
(32:28):
you know, look, I don't follow a hip hop real close.
I don't think that's any shock to anybody, but you know,
even I was aware of the fact that he was
kind of in the twilight of his career.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
He wasn't one of the more relevant names. Yeah, he
had been at one point the real cultural icon.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
Those days were over, and so he may have taken
a look at his money and had a you know,
he was supporting two three houses. He may have said,
I can't do this indefinitely, and so I'm going to
fight it tooth and nail. I'm not sure he ever
saw it going like this, though, because I have a
feeling that if he could have it back, he would.
He certainly did not expect that HSI raid on his
own them.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
In La all right, Paul Morrow, great to talk to you,
as always, Thanks for chatting with us here about it.
We'll have you back on as this thing progresses.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
Thank you, guys. And listen all of you out there.
Fridays did three the Karen Reid case on Fox Nation.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Tune in.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
We'll cover in a different case with a lot of
lurid details as well.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Hope to see you there.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Go check that one out for sure. Thanks Paul, you
know one of our VIPs. Diane sent a wonderful message
to us about Preborn. She wrote, after hearing your promotion
for Preborn, my husband paid for five ultrasounds in my
name from Mother's Day, the best gift I could imagine. Diane,
We share that sentiment. Preborn is a nonprofit on a
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(33:40):
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Speaker 1 (35:03):
Cheap up with the biggest political comeback in world history
on the Team forty seven podcast, playin Book Highlight Trump
Free plays from the.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Week Sunday's at noon Eastern.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Find it on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
We're closing up shop here. Want to remind you, well, actually,
we'll have one of our listeners remind you. This is
a talkback from Freddy and Rochester.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
H H.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Play it.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
You guys are epic.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
You know what.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I was allergict you coffee, But I'm gonna get over
it and I'm gonna start drinking coffee and deal with
the sickness. Just because they celebrate America, I celebrate you, guys,
and I celebrate Trump. He says he's gonna drink some
Crocket coffee. You should join him in that one. Although
if you're allergic, I don't know, that's a whole other thing.
Consult with your doctor first. Crockett Coffee, I don't know.
Can you be allergic to coffee Crocket Coffee?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Evidently you can. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
At Crocketcoffee dot com, go sign up, check it out.
The Mushroom blend is delicious. By the way, Mushroom coffee,
I should say, it's a whole different kind of coffee.
Half the caffee and normal. But they've got fantastic stuff
there and use code book, get a copy of Clay's
American Playbook. Get them while they last before our books
come out at the end of this year. Let's see, JJ,
we got a funny one here, go for it. JJ,
(36:12):
Hi Clayon, but.
Speaker 7 (36:13):
This is Kitty from California. I sent my husband to
the store one Christmas when I was making candy for butter.
J just butter. Didn't care what kind, didn't care what brand.
Told him that he came home with the only thing
in the entire store that is clearly labeled not butter,
(36:35):
as in, I can't believe it's not butter. At least
it makes a good story.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Just trying to be healthy.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a strong move right there, Right to be like, no,
I'm not getting your butter. I'm getting you not butter
instead of butter. Glad they're still married though.
Speaker 7 (36:50):
That's good.
Welcome back in the hour of a three Clay Travis
buck Sexton Show. Appreciate all of you hanging out with us.
We are rolling through. We're going to talk to Paul
Morrow at the bottom of the hour, who has been
in the trial I believe in New York City, which
is starting to get a great deal of attention.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
First couple of hours. Here's what we've been talking about.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
The incredible productivity of Trump's trip to the Middle East,
analyzing everything associated with that, the continued fallout of the
cover up of Joe Biden's mental and physical deterioration, which
is now captivating the media in advance of the release
of the book Original Sin, which is going to tell
(00:41):
all of you all of the things that we have
been telling you for years but did tell you to
be fair, that all of this would come out in
the wake of the election, and that all of the
true stories about Biden's mental and physical decline behind closed
doors would in fact eventually go public. And that is
where we are as Democrats are unable to figure out
(01:03):
how to respond, and the CNNs and the MSNBC's of
the world, the journalists in quotation marks that are on
air at those networks. All of those individuals are now
scrambling to try to get out of the mess that
they have made themselves by now claiming, oh, it was
(01:25):
a cover up. Nobody could have known. But we've broken
down all of that big story. However, in the criminal
justice system New York City, it feels like has had
one big trial after another. They had the sham Trump prosecution,
both the civil case and then also the Alvin Bragg
case in New York City. We had the trial of
(01:50):
the subway hero who was charged with manslaughter, second degree murder.
I don't even remember exactly what those charges were, but
he was found not guilty. We had the Menendez gold
Bars trial, Senator Menendez and his wife both convicted in
New York City courts. And now we have got puff
(02:10):
Daddy aka Didty aka Sean Combs. I think I'm just
gonna call him Ditty on the show because it's only
one word and it's easier and buck, you and I
were talking about this off air. This went mega viral.
Everybody almost on the planet saw the twenty sixteen hotel
video of Diddy running out with the I think he
(02:34):
was still in a towel and beating up his girlfriend Cassie,
So background, if you have n't been following this case.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
She filed a.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Explosive civil lawsuit seeking monetary damages for what she claimed
was outrageous behavior perpetrated against her by Ditty in a
multi year consensual relationship. I believe they were boyfriend girlfriend
for a decade. Producer, Ali, I believe you have been
following this case somewhat closely too. So if I get
(03:06):
any of these facts wrong or you want to step
in and say, actually, Clay, that just I'm trying to
set the table for people who might not have been
following this.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
It is a criminal trial.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Diddy had been housed with Sam Bankman Freed, among others,
that is, celebrities that were being held in this New
York City cell as they awaited trial. And so the
case has gone to trial. Did he faces potentially the
rest of his life in prison for sexual racketeering, basically
(03:41):
crossing state lines, prostitution allegations, all of these things. And
I'm gonna be honest with you, Buck, I have been
reading everything that Cassie is testifying too, and based on
what I have seen, and by the way, eight hundred
two two eight A two, if any of you are
following this and want to weigh in as well. I
don't think that this is criminal behavior beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Well that's my take, and you and I have talked
about it. I don't think you mind me sharing. It's grotesque, reprehensible,
and demonic behavior. But not a good dude. Not he's
a very bad person. Yes, he's a very bad person.
I know, judge not lest you be judged. Yeah, this
guy's a very bad person. But the criminal accounts that
(04:27):
they're going after him on. I tend to agree with Clay.
I am not sure that they are likely to get
beyond a reasonable doubt on them. And that's not to
say that he isn't horrible, But for example, beating a woman,
that's assault, it's disgraceful. Is that past the statute of
limited I'm talking about just the simple assault that we
saw on that's what they call it. That has passed
(04:48):
the that I believe in LA had passed the statute
of limitations. Yeah, and so is that? So then the
the violence counts that you could bring under other circumstances
are past the statual limitations. So this is why they've
gone for this Ricoh, operating a criminal conspiracy across state
lines prostitution thing, and the problem becomes very quickly, I
(05:12):
think for the prosecution here, uh, this is you know,
are these people who were being given lavish gifts and
you know, rides on private jets but not in a
quid pro quo for sexual services situation?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
And then also was there any actual coerd like can
you prove coercion? You know, I don't want to not
be invited to the next party, for example, would not
be coercion, or you know, or or I don't want
to upset somebody who's a very powerful in my industry.
I don't think that's criminal coercion. Do this or I'm
going to hit you or hurt you is coercion? Right,
(05:47):
So these are the Again I read up on this
a little bit this morning. I tend to not I'm
not a what's the what's the thing that everyone is
a true crime I'm not a big true crime guy
in general. But I would say this Clay to the
degree that this is of interest to our audience at all.
And we'll talk to Paul Mora, who is a true
crime guy because he worked as a deputy inspector, which
(06:09):
is just a couple of rungs below commissioner for the NYPD.
This is why this is so big. Puff Daddy was,
or Sean Combs formerly Puff Daddy then P Diddy, maybe
the biggest star in the hip hop world for about
a decade, I would say, and perhaps when hip hop
music was at its actual cultural peak. You could make
(06:33):
this is an argument. But I mean, I grew up
in a New York City. I mean, oddly enough, I
grew up next door to P Didty for a number
of years he lived, and I mean next door, Like
I used to see him on the street when I
was a high school kid. All the time. I would
see his entourage. I saw his baby blue Bentley convertible,
which was a very rare car, then parked out front
some of the biggest security guys you have ever seen
(06:54):
in your life standing around all the time. So I
mean I was very aware of of Shawn Combs at
the time. Clay, this guy was an absolute celebrated cultural
phenomenon for years by all the elites. I mean, you know,
I can't even begin If you're looking for photos, I'm
(07:15):
sure there's photos them with the Clintons, and I'm sure
there's photos of them with Anna Winter a vogue And
I mean, this guy was the absolute pinnacle of music
culture and entrepreneurial success for a number of years. But
people knew about some of this stuff. People knew that
there was very bad stuff going on in the background.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
It's not dissimilar in some ways from Harvey Weinstein, right,
Like everybody in Hollywood was like, oh, how could we.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
Have known depending on these allegations being true or not,
or someone like an R. Kelly where there was also
a tremendous amount of smoke and fire as we found
out in that case. This case, well, this is where
you get into the parsing.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
There's horrible behavior. There's grotesque behavior, which Shawn Combe is
absolutely I mean, this guy should have should like be
completely expelled from public life.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
And no matter what happens to this strial.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
What he did is the the abuse of women and
the the just the grotesque behavior, and that is a
matter of public record that he does not dispute. He
just disputes that these things violated the law. Things that
we really can't talk to you about on radio, like
it would get it would get into that it's inappropriate.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And also you don't really need to hear it.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
But it's about as grotesque as you can imagine sexual stuff,
more grotesque, I think than a lot of you can imagine.
But I just think it's it's another moment here, Clay
where how many of these like cultural icons so you
know in quotes, right, So it's I mean he was
for a while, are able to get away with horrific
(08:48):
I mean you look at you look at this stuff
against Cosby, you look at r. Kelly, you look at
Harvey Weinstein. I mean you know, and I'm not leaving
out anyone on purpose, right, and you go, you know,
the allegations again Michael Jackson, whether one believes them or not,
is a whole other thing. These are some of the
biggest people in our culture, and people around them knew
(09:09):
that weird or deeply criminal stuff was going on, and
no one comes forward, no one says anything for years,
for decades.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
What does that say?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Well, the only reason this is public now is because
Cassie filed the lawsuit. So if I were analyzing this
from a legal perspective, I have no idea why he
didn't settle the lawsuit, as he had an opportunity to
do before it went public, because the minute that it
went public, I think he settled for eight figures ten
(09:41):
million dollars or more within a day of the lawsuit
being public. So what did he What did his legal
team not see here? Because essentially the charges that are
brought against him entirely come out of the civil complaint
that she filed. But here's my thing. And look, there's
a jury of twelve that's going to decide eight men
(10:02):
for women based on the opening of the prosecution's case.
I don't think they have proven that he committed a
crime beyond a reasonable doubt. Now, my big takeaway if
I were sitting on the jury is this, she dated
him for a decade. I'm not saying again to your
point that he didn't engage in a lot of bad behavior.
(10:25):
Bad behavior is not necessarily criminal, And if you were
dating someone for a decade, it's hard for me to
argue that you were coerced into behavior for a full decade.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
You could have left, right. I know you agree with that.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
I do think it's necessary to just bad behavior is like,
you know, stepping out on your wife or something.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Okay, like that's bad behavior.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
This guy was engaged systematically for years and years in demonic.
I don't think anybody should listen to his music ever again,
or be seen with him in public ever again. Behavior.
And that's not even the criminal stuff. I just mean
the stuff that he's admitted to.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Okay, And remember he said publicly that he couldn't vote
for Trump because of allegations about Trump's behavior, which is
just hysterical on so many levels, because even the worst
things that have been said about Trump are a pinprick
of what has been alleged in this trial that he
was involved in. Right, So there's a lot of this
Hollywood finger wagging related to Trump that has been do
(11:32):
as I say, not as I myself have done. Having
said all of that, I don't understand what the actual
crime here is beyond a reasonable doubt that he is
guilty of based on the first few days of it.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
The trial is underway, and we'll talk to Paul Marr
about that. I will tell you that Clay has been
known for a long time, and again I think as
a New Yorker at the time who lived next door
to him, I was particularly aware of the reporting on this.
You know, there was a whole incident with a with
a gunfire at a nightclub and it was alleged that
it was it was his gun and he tried to
pay off a guy in the entourage.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Oh yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Are widely believed and you know, known stories of him
violently assaulting and threatening other music producers and record executives
and you know, in their offices. I think he beat
a guy with a wine bottle and he had to
go to the hospital. I mean, he got away with
this stuff for a long time. Yes, it's because he
was powerful, But also I think that I think that
prosecutors didn't want to bring down an icon. I don't
(12:31):
think that they wanted her to go after somebody who
was found a self made billionaire from the black community
who was being held up as an incredibly important and
powerful cultural figure. I think he got a pass for
a long time on a lot of criminal stuff. I mean,
just look at the hotel camera stuff that didn't come
out until now. Well, he was found not guilty on
(12:52):
the shooting charges, and the guy who he was with
went to prison for years and basically said, hey, I
took the rod. That the whole point was that he
got paid you know, the whole story was that he
got paid off to do that.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
But this story I don't think is gonna go away.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
We'll talk about it at the bottom of the hour
as it is currently underway. And if there were cameras,
this would be like the Johnny Depp amber heard story.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
That is just you can't So Lawyer Clay is very
honed in on and we'll talk to Paul Morrow about
this as well. From the investigator and law enforcement standpoint
in a few minutes. Glora Clay is very honed in
on the legal the legality or illegality of the situation,
which makes perfect sense. It's funny. I just can't get beyond,
and we as a country should be a shame that
we hold people like this up.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Ever, honestly, you know.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
There should really be some soulser And for a lot
of you are like, oh, I don't listen to if
you grew up in you know, from nineteen ninety four
until like I want to say, the year two thousand,
Sean P. Diddy Combs. You know you're hearing this song.
You're hearing his music everywhere. He's at the Empty you know,
the MTV Music Awards, he's at the you know v Age,
(14:01):
you know all the different what are you called the Grammys,
and he's at all these things.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
He's held up. He is the toast of the town.
And the guy is a horrible human being. I mean really,
and people knew about it and they just didn't say anything.
A billionaire.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
He's a billionaire now, not just you know, somewhat successful,
legitimately a billionaire.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, all right, look, I want I'm going to talk
about something else that can really help you. It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
I'm coming up on fifteen years in the media business
after leaving the CIA. And it's funny because I'm a
long time gold holder. Somebody who has had gold. I've
been a believer in having gold for the long haul
for a long time, and I've just purchased some more
gold recently. But I want to just walk you through
(14:44):
a few things. Every thinking you're like, oh, well Trump's
got the economy things, Okay, yeah, you're not holding gold
for six months. The idea is to build gold reserves
over time to prepare for uncertainty and the economy down
the line. But also look at the value increases of gold. Okay,
gold is now more than thirty two hundred dollars an ounce.
That is a huge increase in value. Okay, if you
(15:07):
look at what gold has done in recent years, it
has been going up and up and up, and it's
the best hedge that anyone's thought of against inflation and
a weakening dollar, which is still a major challenge, a
major problem. Diversifying into gold now is easier than ever.
And if you just look, Okay, when I first diversified
my all cash savings account and purchased some gold, the
(15:29):
price of gold was just over two thousand dollars an ounce.
Today that same gold is more than thirty two hundred
dollars an ounce, a sixty percent increase in value. So
owning gold makes sense for the long haul if you
look at it.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
You can.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
You can find out just by checking out the prices yourself.
Because we still have that thirty seven trillion dollars in debt,
because the Democrats are going to be in charge again
at some point. So take action today. And if you
have an old ira or four o one k that
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Speaker 1 (16:26):
You know him as conservative radio hosts, Now just get
to know them as guys on this Sunday hang podcast
with Clay and Fuck. Find it in their podcast feed
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back in play traps Buck second show. Appreciate all
of you hanging out with us. We got a bunch
(16:49):
of different people weighing in on a variety of different subjects.
Oh man, I'm just gonna start a war here. First
of all, here's podcast listener Liz ff.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Hey, guys, I love the show. Listen every day. Hey.
As far as going to the grocery store and not
finding what you need or getting the wrong thing, it
does go both ways. I never go to the parts
store for my husband unless he calls ahead first and
gets the part ordered that he wants for me to
pick up. And I don't allow him to tell me
(17:24):
what it is because I want plausible deniability anyway, I
just want to let you know that so good.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Actually, I don't think I would be great at going
to the auto parts store and trying to figure out
things there either, So that is a good policy. We've
got a bunch of funny responses there. We'll hit some
of those, but we got our buddy Paul Morrow, who's
gonna join us from inside of that ditty trial tell
us what he is seeing there. But in the meantime,
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You can gain visibility.
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Into everything by going right now online to NetSuite dot com,
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Speaker 3 (18:56):
All right, welcome back into Clay and Buck with some
law enforce and legal expertise here. Our friend Paul Morrow
is back, former NYPD inspector. He's an attorney as well,
founder of opsdesk dot org and a Fox News contributor
inspect tomorrow. Great to have you back on the show, sir.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
Great to be with you guys.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
All right, so I know it's early stages.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You might have heard a little bit of what we were
talking about before with the Sean Combs trial.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
A lot of.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Really grotesque stuff, salacious stuff that is considered I think
a matter of fact and public record now on both sides.
But is it going to be able to be proven
beyond a reasonable doubt that it is criminal?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
What are you seeing so far?
Speaker 3 (19:40):
How are you viewing the likelihood of well, whichever outcome
here in this trial?
Speaker 6 (19:47):
So what I'm seeing is the prosecutor's strategy, right, and
it's way way too early, I would argue to be
able to come to some sort of a conclusion as
to the likelihood of his conviction. What the prosecution very
clearly is doing is establishing right up front that, as
you guys put it, not a good guy, okay, and
that the acts involved here are horrific. That in and
(20:08):
of itself, however, it does not supply enough beyond a
reasonable doubt for a conviction. But by establishing that right
up from the get go, first of all, you shade
you color the perceptions of the jury going forward in
regard to everything here. That's kind of going on in
the Karen Reid case as well, by the way, but
you gotta rumber something the charges here. He's the only
(20:29):
guy charged, and you have a Rico allegation here along
with some other charges, and that means that there are
other members of the organization and they were not charged,
which means almost certainly there's some flips coming. And that
is to say, people that are members of this organization
who are gonna come in and they're gonna button up
in the prosecution's mind, they're gonna button up the piece
(20:51):
that you guys are saying is potentially missing. And I'm
not disagreeing with you, we just haven't gotten to it yet.
Speaker 5 (20:56):
You're gonna have.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Testimony, I would argue, where they are going to put
forth the idea that he had an organization, that it
was coercive, and then there's all this other stuff marveled
throughout it, including guns, drugs, physical assaults, even some allegations
of arson. It's gonna get very very volatile, very lurid,
and that's what they're going to put their meat on
(21:18):
the bones of the indictment as it's written.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Why do you think they started with Cassie, his girlfriend,
she is the first witness bringing the case, because to me,
that is the most salacious, but it actually and I'm
curious how you would analyze this is one that he
might have the best defense for because she was with
him for a decade and if you truly felt like
(21:42):
you were being mistreated. I think most people, right, I
think most people out there, if they were in a
decade long relationship and you kept in that relationship, a
lot of people would say, hey, she had to have
consented to a lot of this. She wasn't necessarily coerced.
Right to me, starting with this actually offers him the
(22:05):
best defense, whereas if they had started with, hey, let
me get into some of the particulars of what we
think were criminal behavior, maybe by people who were his
former colleagues, former co workers, people that he employed. It
actually looks more like a clinical crime than a broken relationship,
clearly between a guy and a girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (22:27):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a very smart observation,
because you're right, that is very much the dynamic in
this and we've seen that from the get go. Because
notice that Colmes' defense Okay, who is Mark Agnifflow, by
the way, a very very competent and experience attorney. His wife, Karenygniffolo,
is actually the defense attorney for the Manjione case. She's
(22:47):
got Manngion. So they're well known here in New York
City criminal circles. They both work for the Manhattan DIA's office,
probably around when you were their fuck with us in
New York.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, but that's it.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
Yeah, so you know they've been around in Nay not.
He's very competent Atorney.
Speaker 6 (23:00):
There's a lot of high profile cases, so you know,
he's got very good representation here. But what he's done, Clay,
is what the prosecution has done, excuse me, which is
a two female prosecutors are the part of the team.
One for him, by the way, is the daughter of
James Komy. That James Komy, his daughter is one of
the prosecutors. So this stuff is all very New York
(23:20):
at this point. But one of the things they're going
to do now is to confront the dynamic Clay that
you're talking about subsequent to Cassie. And as I said,
what they did upfront is just put the black head
on calms. They made him a bad guy to the
point that even his defense had to say, hey, you
know what is a bad guy. He's a domestic abuser.
(23:40):
But that doesn't make him a rico purp. That doesn't
make him a sex trafficker. Right, They're trying to draw
that distinction. So now everything is going to be colored
by that. But the question you pose is now, what
the prosecution has to overcome, which is was it simply transactional?
Was Cassie hanging around? She had ample opportunity to get away.
(24:02):
Was she hanging around because she was getting something out
of it? And this whole thing was kind of consensual,
which is going to be the defense, And that occurs.
That dynamic occurs in all these cases. We saw it
in Epstein, and we saw it in Weinstein. You know,
in the Harvey Weinstein case, she had a similar thing,
right like, I was all transactionally. I knew what they
were getting into. And this comes down to a little
(24:23):
bit of the evolution of America's sort of perception of
these things. You're seeing it in the Menedez case where
the argument is and it's been a winning argument so far,
to my shock, that we have progressed over the decades
in our understanding of certain dynamics in these things, and
as a result, we understand them better and we have
to treat them differently. And so it's going to come
down to exactly I think what you have put on
(24:45):
the table, which is how much the other members of
Combs's organization, because I'm telling you those that's who's coming here.
Because it's a RINCO, right, There's going to be other
members of the organization. They're not charge So where is everybody?
They're coming on a prosecution's case, gonna have to say
he had control of her, she didn't have independent will,
he threatened her, he beat her up, she didn't feel
(25:07):
like she could leave, and you gonna have all kinds
of other allegations about how he controlled this organization. And
that's gonna be what a rub hits the road.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
We'll gonna Paul.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
This goes to my next question for you, which my
understanding here, and this was from early on in the case,
and I checked to make sure they already know that
they found illegal drugs, a lot of the quote large
quantities of cocaine and meth, and illegal firearms. That's actually
something I do know quite a bit about because if
you've got illegal fire it was down here in Florida's
(25:37):
actually in Miami is where I live. And I think
he had the serial numbers filed off on some AR
Fifteen's a big, big no no. Now, this this comes
up in the Rico case. But if they've got him
on those can they just get him separately on those
illegal possession charges and I asked, because also, to me,
(26:00):
dedicates they must think they've got something really good on them, right,
because back in the day, if they can get them
on the illegal drugs and illegal guns, why not just
put them away for years on that? They must think
that they can prove this conspiracy at a higher level.
Speaker 6 (26:13):
Yeah, another smart question. So understand something. He's got other charges.
Everybody is focusing on the Rico charge because that's the
thing that tracks to like the mafia, Gravano flipped Doungatti.
We've all heard those threes. But there are other charges here.
I'm going to point one of them out. One of
them is that there isn't a gun charge here in
the superseding indictment. There is a drug charge. However, all right,
he's got a drug distribution charge. So there is that,
(26:36):
and that's recent because that's when when the HSI did
the raid.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 6 (26:40):
He's also got an obstruction charge and that almost certainly
goes to the twenty sixteen thing where he tells is
he flores the head the manager, don't do anything with
this tape. You got to cover up this tape somehow.
Rather they brought the statute on that forward. I'll be
curious to see how they do that. But relative to
these other charges that are here, those remain on the
(27:00):
table as an option for him. And you know, the
one that's actually more serious than the RICO is the
sex trafficking case because and here's why, And this is
the thing I want to tease out. This is eighteen
title eighteen USC fifteen ninety one. Anybody can look it up.
It's not it sounds very loyally. Just look those numbers up.
This is sex trafficking of a minor, and that's trouble
(27:23):
for him because that carries life and the statute of limitations.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Sorry to cut you off on that. Who is the minor?
Do we know anything about that?
Speaker 6 (27:32):
You know?
Speaker 5 (27:33):
No, I don't, And that's not going to be a
very good chance.
Speaker 6 (27:36):
You're not going to hear that name because obviously it's
a minor, so we may hear in some vague terms.
And I don't know if the person is going to testify.
But eighteen fifteen ninety one, which nobody's really talking about it.
I looked for this interview. I had a lot of
the same questions you guys do, so I started looking
into the actual indictment. I pulled down the PDF as
opposed to talking about it off of People magazine, and
(27:57):
I see that it jumps right out of me.
Speaker 5 (27:59):
Who's this?
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Yah, I didn't know that. Let me ask you this,
eight men for women on the jury? Am I a
awful And the answer may be very much yes, awful sexist, mischauvinist.
If I'm diddy, I want as many men on this
trial as I can get, because I think guys are
more likely in New York City to look at this
(28:21):
and be like, hey, these women are getting on these planes.
They're consenting to travel all over the world to go
to ditty parties. They weren't just getting flown around for free.
They understood that. Again, this is what I'm arguing. If
I'm the defense attorney, do you think that the fact
that he got eight men knowing that he only needs
one to refuse to convict right to say, hey, this
(28:43):
is reasonable doubt? If you were the defense attorney, would
you want more men on this jury than women? Do
you think that draw is better for him?
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (28:53):
I mean, I look, you know that probably makes me
an awful, terrible, horrible sexist person as well, But it
also means that we're both living in the real world, right, Yeah,
the answer would be yes, of course.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
Now that said, as.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
I said earlier, you know, the understanding of these sorts
of things have very much evolved, and I don't think
there's any denying that as a society we appreciate the
control that an abuser can have over the abused, and
our understanding of that dynamic has come a long long way.
Speaker 5 (29:23):
So you know, it's a.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
Very blanket statement and we have to be careful with
how we frame that. But yeah, of course, because women
are just going to be more understanding of that situation
they may have experienced themselves and not. You know, it's
not always men controlling women. It can be the reverse,
but let's speak factually, generally, it is one, especially when
it's physical. You know, it's men over women. This goes
(29:45):
almost to the argument of men and women's sports. Men
just have stronger bodies in a general sense, and blah
blah blah. You guys notice, So, yeah, you're thinking in
terms of men who are going to look at this
thing and say to themselves, eh, this was transactional. Cassie
so anyway, is the main witness here, and she stayed
with him for eleven years. How is that possible. There
(30:06):
must have been a point where she could have gotten
out of the limo, run into the police station and
spoken her piece, and she didn't do that until years
later when she decides to file a civil suit, which
carries a monetary imperative. Right, there's a motive embedded in
that that she's going to get paid, and you know,
not coincidentally, her records, her music wasn't exactly number one
(30:30):
at that point, so there's going to be this implication
that she did it for money, and ultimately she got
what she wanted. He settled the day after, as you
guys said, So yeah, and it just comes down to
whether the jury buys it.
Speaker 5 (30:44):
And you know, there's also the reverse.
Speaker 6 (30:45):
Some of the men may feel like, you know what,
I got to make sure that I don't come across
as the guy you're talking about, Clay, and so maybe
they're going to lean more into being protective. Oh and others.
So we'll say, let.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Me ask you this, Paul, because you on it. He
settled this case one day after the civil suit was filed.
Leave aside the criminal The only reason he's getting charged
criminally is because that civil case went public. He settled
it for reportedly eight figures. Is this one of the
all time miscalculations that you can think of? The guy's
(31:19):
a billionaire if he settles this case he had the
opportunity to before it ever went public. None of this
probably ensues, because the entire case seems to have been
a roadmap based on that civil complaint. What a colossal
miscalculation this was, especially because you already went ahead and
settled it for you know, ten for ten million dollars
(31:41):
or more the day after it was filed.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Yeah, you know, look, we don't know the backstory, and
there almost certainly is one. I would suspect that in
light of the blizzard of civil suits that resulted from
his settlement with her, and it's just been a steamroller,
you know, it's been an ongoing thing, he may have
decided that he was being blackmailed, and he may have
said to himself, you know what, Look, I just gave
(32:06):
her ten million. Now people that I said alow to
in the street are coming after me for you're ten million,
alleging that I did this something similar. And I have
to stop here at some point and just say, you
know what, I can't do it. I have to call
BS because this could go on forever, and even a
billionaire like me, you know, I could be bankrupt. He
didn't put out any music for a long time. He
had put out a more recent album, and he was
kind of like the way I read it, and I'm
(32:28):
you know, look, I don't follow a hip hop real close.
I don't think that's any shock to anybody, but you know,
even I was aware of the fact that he was
kind of in the twilight of his career.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
He wasn't one of the more relevant names. Yeah, he
had been at one point the real cultural icon.
Speaker 6 (32:41):
Those days were over, and so he may have taken
a look at his money and had a you know,
he was supporting two three houses. He may have said,
I can't do this indefinitely, and so I'm going to
fight it tooth and nail. I'm not sure he ever
saw it going like this, though, because I have a
feeling that if he could have it back, he would.
He certainly did not expect that HSI raid on his
own them.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
In La all right, Paul Morrow, great to talk to you,
as always, Thanks for chatting with us here about it.
We'll have you back on as this thing progresses.
Speaker 6 (33:09):
Thank you, guys. And listen all of you out there.
Fridays did three the Karen Reid case on Fox Nation.
Speaker 5 (33:15):
Tune in.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
We'll cover in a different case with a lot of
lurid details as well.
Speaker 5 (33:18):
Hope to see you there.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Go check that one out for sure. Thanks Paul, you
know one of our VIPs. Diane sent a wonderful message
to us about Preborn. She wrote, after hearing your promotion
for Preborn, my husband paid for five ultrasounds in my
name from Mother's Day, the best gift I could imagine. Diane,
We share that sentiment. Preborn is a nonprofit on a
mission to save the lives of unborn babies. They know
(33:40):
what they're up against too, which is the ease of
access to what's known as an abortion pill or the
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But despite that, Preborn does all they can to save
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Think about that one hundred and forty dollars. You could
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Speaker 1 (35:03):
Cheap up with the biggest political comeback in world history
on the Team forty seven podcast, playin Book Highlight Trump
Free plays from the.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Week Sunday's at noon Eastern.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Find it on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
We're closing up shop here. Want to remind you, well, actually,
we'll have one of our listeners remind you. This is
a talkback from Freddy and Rochester.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
H H.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Play it.
Speaker 5 (35:28):
You guys are epic.
Speaker 4 (35:30):
You know what.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I was allergict you coffee, But I'm gonna get over
it and I'm gonna start drinking coffee and deal with
the sickness. Just because they celebrate America, I celebrate you, guys,
and I celebrate Trump. He says he's gonna drink some
Crocket coffee. You should join him in that one. Although
if you're allergic, I don't know, that's a whole other thing.
Consult with your doctor first. Crockett Coffee, I don't know.
Can you be allergic to coffee Crocket Coffee?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Evidently you can. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
At Crocketcoffee dot com, go sign up, check it out.
The Mushroom blend is delicious. By the way, Mushroom coffee,
I should say, it's a whole different kind of coffee.
Half the caffee and normal. But they've got fantastic stuff
there and use code book, get a copy of Clay's
American Playbook. Get them while they last before our books
come out at the end of this year. Let's see, JJ,
we got a funny one here, go for it. JJ,
(36:12):
Hi Clayon, but.
Speaker 7 (36:13):
This is Kitty from California. I sent my husband to
the store one Christmas when I was making candy for butter.
J just butter. Didn't care what kind, didn't care what brand.
Told him that he came home with the only thing
in the entire store that is clearly labeled not butter,
(36:35):
as in, I can't believe it's not butter. At least
it makes a good story.
Speaker 2 (36:42):
Just trying to be healthy.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
That's a strong move right there, Right to be like, no,
I'm not getting your butter. I'm getting you not butter
instead of butter. Glad they're still married though.
Speaker 7 (36:50):
That's good.
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