June 6, 2025 • 24 mins
In this episode, Michael Kaplan, author of 'Advantage Players', discusses the concept of advantage players in gambling and life. He shares personal stories, insights on the traits that define successful advantage players, and offers advice on how to cultivate an advantage player mindset. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitch Show on
I'm Heeartradio. My guest today is Michael Kaplan. Michael is
the author of the new book Advantage Players, which takes
a look at people who are in gambling and beyond.
He's also a senior features writer at the best newspaper
in the country, The New York Post, and the gambling
columnist for Cigar Aficionado. He has written four other books
(00:26):
and has done stories for publication that include The New
York Times, magazine, GQ, and Wired. Hi Michael, so nice
to have you on.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hi, Carol, It's so great to see you. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Our connection story is I think very cool. We met
playing poker and knew each other for years because of
a long running poker game in New York Cities. Shout
out to our friend Charlie. Are you still playing?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I do? I do?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I mean it seems a little bit more sporadic because
Charlie's always traveling and you know, I don't know I
still have it, and because he does it on Saturday
nights now, so sometimes that can be tougher to make.
Friday nights were perfect. You know, Saturday can be tougher,
but yeah, I love playing in that game. It's so
much fun, meet the coolest people there, and most you
could lose his sixty dollars unless you start playing cash,
(01:16):
which could get.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
The cash game gets gets kind of nuts afterwards. But yeah,
the tournament is a low stakes tournament, but it's super
fun and super competitive despite the fact that you could
only lose sixty dollars.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's so organized.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I mean, I've played a lot of you know, I
don't know, let's say, underground poker clubs in New York
that had tournaments were way less organized than it's.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Like, it's great.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Now he lays out all this amazing great selection of
whiskeys and tequilas and.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Stuff, and it's just it's fun. It's so much fun.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I want people there who knew almost nothing about poker
and they had a blast playing.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It's really a good time.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, it's And I meet people from that game all
over the place, like, oh, you know, it's a wide
few people. Your book sounds like it's going to be
just about gamblers, but you also talk about everyday advantage
players who are lawyers and strippers and magicians and movie directors.
(02:16):
What's the connection between all of them.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I think there are people who work really really hard, Like.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That's the main thing.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I mean, like to do this stuff, you have to
work really really hard and be devoted completely to your craft.
I mean, I think there's that. And I also think
that there are people who kind of figure out a
way to do things that other people can't figure out.
And I don't think anybody sits there and says, oh,
I'm going to think outside of the box.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'm going to come up with a new way of
doing it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But I do think that there are people who think
about what they do enough that they come up with
special ways of doing it. And I think that people
who maybe take a more casual approach to what they're
doing won't think about it as much and won't come
up with those kinds of techniques or strategies to do
(03:07):
special things. I mean, it's like those guys, the Safti brothers.
I mean, they're these amazing directors.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Uncut Gems was their first giant hip, but before that,
they did a movie called Good Time, which was how
I found out about them. And their movies are loaded,
like theyose star people who've never acted in movies before.
And I talked to Ron Shelton and he explained to
me because he used a lot of professional athletes in
(03:34):
some of his movies like Bulldoorum and Tincup, and he
was saying, it's so hard to get performances out of
people who don't know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Acting is really really hard.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But somehow the Safti brothers managed to get these amazing,
super believable performances, and they figured out a way to
do it that other directors you know, can't or won't.
So I find it really fascinating these people who come
up with ways of doing things that other people either
haven't thought of, or can't think of or.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Won't think of.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
What's your favorite of the advantage players you feature in the.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Book, Well, okay, so you know my favorite, of course
is the epilogue of the book talks about me being
diagnosed with an incurable cancer called mental sellom foma and
I was about to get brutal chemotherapy and I found
a treatment that was created by a doctor in Australia
for this very rare disease. And I mean it used
(04:32):
no chemo and involved taking six pills a day, and
that do very specific targeted things to the cancer and
getting an infusion every eight weeks of this drug called
a tuxamab, and I as of August, I've had zero
percent cancer in my blood. That's after having been diagnosed
with what was essentially stage four cancer. My bone marrow
(04:54):
was like forty percent cancer. So that guy is my
favorite advantage player in the book. He's the number one
for me, but I also love I mean, there's a
there's a guy named James Gross Jane who's like a
genius at beating casino games.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And this guy will.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Figure out ways to beat games that casino's view is unbeatable,
to run these involved computer programs and find, you know,
things in the game that people who created the game overlooked.
Like he understands the game better than the guys who
created the game, which is pretty amazing. And then I'll
bring in his team and they've taken millions and millions
(05:30):
of dollars out of casinos.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And he works really really hard.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
I mean, the guy's got, you know, an applied math
degree from Harvard, so he could have done a lot
of different things and he chose to go that route.
And I mean the stuff he does is pretty.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Amazing somebody help their child grow up to be an
advantage player. Like, what advice would you give if you were,
you know, parenting from day one. I know your girls
are post.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
College now, probably one's about the graduate and one is
out of college.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I kind of wish I did think.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
That you are starting it all over again.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
What would you do serve.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
My kids into many advantage players. I think I would
just show them a way to look at the world
a little bit differently, like to look at situations and
maybe see more than what immediately meets the eye, Like
I mean from you know, like the people who are
advantage players do everything the right way. Like they'll walk
to a place the shortest way possible. They'll realize that, oh,
(06:29):
if you drive fifty five miles instead of sixty mile
fifty five miles an hour instead of sixty miles an hour,
it reduces your likelihood of getting to an accident bite
nex per set. I mean I would I think I
think it's a matter of like showing them things and saying, listen,
there's a better way to do every single thing.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
It's like, you know when people talk about positive ev
you know, positive expected value. I mean that exists in everything,
not just like a hand of cards or a stock
market investment or something like that. And I think I
would encourage my kids to see where expected value is
and like to learn about that and to learn that
there's two ways to do everything, and you know, you
(07:08):
could do it the way that's going to be the
most profitable, the most rewarding, or the most beneficial to
maybe many people.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I think that's kind of it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It's funny that positive expected value. I remember in the
poker forums, like when somebody would mention a girlfriend, it
would be like, oh, that's a negative expected value.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Exactly, we do this. Everything is about ev.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Right, absolutely. So in the book, you mentioned you placed
a bet for Heidi Flis, the famous Hollywood madam, when
she couldn't make one herself. What was that story about?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Oh we will.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
There was a there was a period of time, Okay,
so it's kind of a little bit of a story.
Whenever I come to Vegas, I used to play on
a pretty big card counting team. I still liked to
card count, but not for giants stakes or anything. And
he loves to gamble up blackjack, So whenever we hang out,
we'll play blackjack.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Together.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And the great thing about playing with Heidi is she
just wants to gamble, so she'll let me sit there
and count and jump in when it gets good. And
I said to I said, you know it's bad for
you for me to do this. She says, I don't care.
I'm just gambling. You can do whatever you want, which, well,
you should at least raise your bet if you see
me betting.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
She's like, okay, it's not that hands advantage playing really exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
And I said to her, I said, listen, you got
to know I'm the biggest knit. I won't even make
a bet, a sports bet unless I know somebody told
me who knows what they're talking about, that.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
That was, you know, a good bet to make.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And she goes, oh, do you know you know anybody
could talk about NCAA. It was like there was you
know during the basketball season, do you have any good
NCAA picks for this weekend? Like, well, there's one guy
I know who would tell me, but he hates he
hates giving out picks because he bets all the time
and if you bet once in a while and you lose,
he's going to feel bad.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And so this guy she knew who he was. He
was excited. I called him.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
He loved harder Goes, I will give you picks for
Heidi flies. So we were betting all the time, and
she couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I don't know. I think that she I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Why she couldn't get down somewhere there was a place
where she wanted to bet, and for some reason they
wouldn't take her bet. Maybe I don't know. I don't
remember now what this issue wasn't for a lack of money,
that was for sure. Maybe she could bet her limit.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think that she had.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
There was a limit every day of how much you
could bet, and I think she had hit her limit.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So she asked me to place a bet for her.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
So I think she bet like two grand on some
sports you know, on some NCA game that this guy
Alan Boston told us to bet on. And yeah, I
made the bet without even thinking twice. And the second
I made the bet, the money was you know what
I mean in my account? I mean, but yeah, I
was very happy to make a bet for Heidi. She's awesome.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Her.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
She lost the bet, Yeah, she didn't care, and I
felt bad. Oh my god, I feel bad that you lost.
Goes I'm a big girl. I've lost a lot of bets.
She didn't really bother her, which was the right answer.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You know, We're going to take a quick break and
be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Do you
think of yourself as an advantage player?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I think of myself as an advantage player in some ways.
I mean, I certainly was an advantage player blackjack. I'm
an advantage player at kind of low buy in poker
tournaments with bad players. I think of myself as being
a bit of an advantage player in life. I mean
I certainly was when I got diagnosed with the cancer,
and I made sure I found the best possible treatment.
I didn't just settle for getting brutal chemo. I think
(10:25):
when I do I think as a journalist, I think
I'm a bit of an advantage player. How I approach
stories and how I interview people. I mean, I'll ask
questions sometimes that makes seem a little weird, and it
kind of gets things going. And I never take no
for an answer from people. I really really get them.
I really try to get what I can get out
of them. And I think also becoming a journalist in
(10:46):
itself was like a mega advantage play because it's just
been the greatest life. I've gotten to meet so many
cool people, traveled all over the world doing stories. I've
had amazing experiences, get to write for a living. I
mean that's pretty good, pretty good. That's an advantage play
in and of itself. So yeah, I do think of
myself as an advantage player, and I try.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I do try to find edges at things.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I mean, not always like as obsessed as some people
who just do it for a living.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Art Like, I mean, I like positive EV but I
probably should be more positive EV driven than I am.
I shouldn't let it, I shouldn't leave anything on the table,
but I do because sometimes it's worth it to do.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to find the positive V
and everything. I don't know that I'm an advantage player.
I'm a sometimes advantage exactly exactly What do you worry about?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I worry a lot about whatever's in front of me
at that moment. It's like, because I go for this
infusion of raretuximab every eight weeks, so every seven weeks,
I worry, like I'm like, oh, creak in my back,
Oh my finger hurt me.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Oh, I was coughing, Like the cancer is back.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
The doctor says, don't worry, like it's not going to
come roaring back, and you know in eight weeks. But
so I worry about when that's in front of me.
When I was doing this book, I endlessly worried about
like every little page, every little comment, every word drove
the publisher crazy. Like I worry about exactly what's in
front of me. Like if some things are now with
my kids, I worry about that in the moment, but I.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Don't sit around worrying about them.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
It's weird, like I seem to worry a lot about
whatever I'm focused on at that moment, Like right now,
I'm worried about getting a lot of publicity for this
book and selling books and pushing it all and turning
people onto like this way of thinking and hoping that
they get inspired by the book.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, I could see this book being a hit.
I think it's a really good concept.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, I appreciate the optimism.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I mean, we're in this moment of everybody's trying to
maximize their potential and learn the better way to do
things and the advantage player guide of you know, try
to do everything in your life as most efficiently and
in the best way as possible. I really I could
see that.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, I hope so, I mean, I hope that people
see it and that they get inspiration from it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And because it was.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Funny, I was talking, and I think people like the
term advantage player, like if you're if you're in the
gambling world, like you know, that's a pretty common term
among casino gamblers, but people who don't don't do that,
it's not really that known of a term. I mean,
I was, I was. Somebody said to me, well, what's
the formula. I'm like, well, it's not the kind of
book where there's like a formula. I kind of have
(13:29):
to It kind of should inspire you on how to
think rather than oh, if you do these three things,
you're going to be a millionaire and or a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
If you have those let us know, oh I.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Will, I will, I will employ them, don't worry. And
but you know, I don't know, like I think, I
think it's hopefully will show people a way to think.
And I kind of a philosophy a little bit for life.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What would you tell your sixteen year old self, what
would a sixteen year old Michael need.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
To know, tell them to work really hard, to to
give yourself a chance to get lucky. Like you know,
if you see an opportunity to not freeze up and
not take it. I mean, like I got like one thing,
I got two things. I got really lucky with where
when I was like living in like a rental apartment
in Manhattan, it came up for sale and I was
(14:17):
able to buy at a reasonable price. I bought that,
and then the neighborhood kind of blew up. It was
in Chelsea. The neighborhood blew up, and I was able
to sell that, and then I bought a Brownstone and
Park Slope and that kind of has blown up. And
I was like, I basically when I bought the place,
it was like I think it was selling for I
think I had to put down a fourteen thousand dollars
(14:38):
down payment. I had twenty grand to my name, and
you know, I had to pay a couple of grand
for a lawyer. So I was left with just a
few thousand dollars. But I just felt like I wanted
to get lucky. I mean, I think that's what I
would tell myself, like to see opportunities that may not
seem like complete locks in that moment, and just if
it seems right to take a shot.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
If you wait, then you're going to lose it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And to just kind of give yourself a chance to
get lucky with things and to work super hard and
to be focused and you know, to be a good person.
And also you know what, this is the one other thing,
like when you see somebody who's like even a little
bit worse off than you, to have some empathy. At
least have empathy, not I saying, oh, give that person
your money, which you can, but at least have empathy
(15:22):
for them and kind of get it that like everybody's
not as I don't know, together or well offer has
going what you have going, and you know, try to,
I don't know, show them a little bit of love,
you know.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, did you see that trait or the empathy trait
a lot in the advantage players or are they focus
on themselves?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It's interesting? Let me think about that.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Well, I mean some because some advantage players are insanely generous,
like they'll I think it goes both ways, like some
are crazy generous and some are so because you do
have to eat the same even being a journalist, you
have to be a little bit selfish. You have to
be a little bit self absorbed to do it, and
you have to kind of sort of have a big
enough ego, Like it takes a lot. It takes a
(16:06):
lot to be an advantage player. Like to walk into
a casino that was like build for billions of dollars.
They've got millions of dollars in security and surveillance. They've
got people there to stop people like you. That's their job.
To go in there and think you could do your
thing and take their money and walk out, then come
back the next day.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And do it again.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
That takes like a lot of confidence. So maybe that's
another thing that I want I would tell myself, like
to be confident that you could do things and to
not get scared because there's some you know, you know,
organization or some group that's like way bigger than you
kind of saying you can't do it.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Like, don't let that stop you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Did you see any
particular traits in all of them? In all the people
that you covered, was there I need to say.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
The drive like this drive and never never giving up
and like just doing it, like you know, the Safti brothers.
Like people think, oh, those guys you know, came from
out of nowhere, Like they work so hard, Like out
of college. They're making industrial movies. They were making music videos.
They were doing everything they can get their hands on.
They made these early like their early movies that got
(17:22):
them where they are. They made them for no money.
I mean, you know, I don't know, like you know
this guy, there's a guy in there, you know, I
don't know Eddie Teams. I mean he just was relentless.
I mean, like it's funny I met him. He's one
of the guys in the book. And this guy is
like incredibly sharp. He is a guy who would like
(17:43):
look at like one of the things he would do
is casinos would have like if you played enough slot machines,
they would then have a drawing at the end where
they'd be like, you know, ten the ten biggest players
of that weekend would get a chance to draw a
card with a blank you know, white back, and you know,
the worst prize is let's say a win breaker, and
first prize you know is a I don't know you know,
(18:04):
fifty thousand dollars car, so you want to get the
fifty thousand dollars car. And he trained himself to like
look and find the tiny little difference on that card
and then to come back and play enough to be
the first to pick, and then to pick that card
and win. He's had multiple cars doing stuff like that.
But when I first met him, it was at a
blackjack tournament and he was walking around with a book
(18:27):
filled with like post it notes sticking out of the book,
a blackjack tournament book. I'm like, my god, is there
anything corny or this guy brought a tournament book to
the tournament with all these post it notes. And I
didn't know who he was at the time. Then he
knew some people I knew. We sat down to have
breakfast and he's talking about things he did in the tournament.
I realized, this guy is at a whole other level.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Than I am.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And I also found out that his bookshelves are loaded
with books on all kinds of topics and they all
have a zillion post it notes sticking out and he
reads them before he does anything associated to that.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So I think there's an element.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Of that kind of obsessiveness and hard work and just
not giving up.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That is a trait that you need.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You might not know the answer to this, but are
they born with it or is it something that they develop.
I love the idea of the advantage player. I love
the idea of teaching yourself to become the advantage player.
But is it possible or is it just something that they,
you know, came here.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think anybody could make themselves an advantage player at something.
I think everybody has the advantage player in them.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Listen, some people are just they just have a knack.
They're born with a certain gene almost. But I think
they are people who got good at something and then,
you know, just push themselves to get better and better.
I mean, and I don't know that something clicked in
their mind. I mean that made them want to do
(19:55):
this particular thing and just work relentlessly at it. I mean,
I was trying to somebody. A friend of mine's had
a fred whose daughter is in college and she wants
to be a journalist, and she was asking me about it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I said, look, I go.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
The thing is if it's not the thing you and
this is like the advantage player mindset. If it's not
the thing you want to do more than anything else
in the world, Like, don't do one of these hard things,
like do something easier. And if you would rather hang
out with your friends than do this thing, it's probably
not for you. If you would rather hang out with
your friends than go whack games in a casino, you're
(20:28):
probably not really an advantage play like these guys. The
great line from James gros Geen is he goes if
there's a good game, I'll go to places where the
cell phones don't work, like being he'll go anywhere, like
go to the remote, remote locations. Like he's not looking
to stay in fancy hotels. He's looking for games he
can crush. And he'll get on a plane and fly
to some far flung place on no notice if there's
(20:48):
a certain promotion, or if a game is on, or
if there's a dealer who's giving up whole cards.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I mean, you have to have that kind of drive
to be.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Successful in one of these kind of advantage playing worlds.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
In my opinion, when I first not when I first
got into poker, but when I was really into poker,
when my friend and I were going to Atlantic City,
you know, multiple times a week or that kind of thing.
We were always looking for the beatable games, and so
they weren't at the comfortable casinos. They weren't at Bargotta,
Borgotta had all the best players. They were at like
(21:22):
the resorts, which had two tables. That was our favorite
place to play. It was two poker tables in the
middle of the casino floor. So like some guy who
just wanted craps would like wander over with a beer
in his hand and be like, let me try some poker.
I've seen it on TV. And those were the games
that we wanted to play in, and people thought we
(21:42):
were crazy. They thought, why wouldn't you want to go
play in the place with the big comfy chairs and
the nice room and the whatever. We'd be like, that's
not where the winnable games are. And I, you know,
I wonder about that in life, like maybe maybe I've
been looking for the cushy chairs and missing the places
where winning is easier.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think I think there's an element to that. I
think there definitely is. I mean, like, when I like
the place, there's a place where I really like to
play black check and cardcat.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
When I'm in Vegas, I don't want to say the
name of it.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Resorts doesn't have a poker room anymore, doesn't have a
poker anymore, so I don't even think it exists anymore.
So it's okay, It's okay for me.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, this is a total dump Downtown. They have a
great double deck game and it's really beatable. And because
I don't play that much, so my skills are kind
of rusty. I'm not like as sharp, but just as
I was at one point, and I can go there
and I feel like I'm playing the game with a
little bit of an edge and it's low steak, so
I'm like, I'm able to spread without having a giant
you know what I mean, I'm not going to You
(22:42):
can lose, trust me. You can be in a great
situation still get crushed.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It's like, yeah, I do think there's something to be
said for that, like for finding the thing that other
people don't want to do, or the place where they
don't want to play. Yeah, and that's and listen when
I say the place they don't want to play, that
applies to everything in life. It's not just casinos. I mean,
it could be the job, the profession.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I talked to somebody once who was I was doing
a story actually on people who made money in like
unlikely professions, and was a guy. This guy had an
MBA and he could have done a lot of things,
and he got into the animal rendering business, which not
a lot of people want to be in. It's not
trust me, it's not glamorous, you know, dealing with but
he made he said it was. It's the business where
(23:26):
he was able to make a ton of money because
there was just so much opportunity that was untapped, and
if you were really smart and came in there, you
had chances that like you didn't have if you went
to work on Wall Street, where everybody's just as smart
as you will.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, Yeah, that's a really really good point. Well, I've
loved this conversation. I can't wait to read Advantage Players.
I leave us here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Say, the best thing you could do is, you know,
take trips to his exotical places you could find, listen
to a lot of music, read a lot, just enjoy
life and be nice and get the most you can
out of things.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I think like that taking in experiences will make life
better for everybody and all the people around you.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Also, he is Michael Kaplan. Check out his book Advantage
Players anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much for
coming on, Michael.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marcowitch Show on
I'm Heeartradio. My guest today is Michael Kaplan. Michael is
the author of the new book Advantage Players, which takes
a look at people who are in gambling and beyond.
He's also a senior features writer at the best newspaper
in the country, The New York Post, and the gambling
columnist for Cigar Aficionado. He has written four other books
(00:26):
and has done stories for publication that include The New
York Times, magazine, GQ, and Wired. Hi Michael, so nice
to have you on.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Hi, Carol, It's so great to see you. Thank you
for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Our connection story is I think very cool. We met
playing poker and knew each other for years because of
a long running poker game in New York Cities. Shout
out to our friend Charlie. Are you still playing?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I do? I do?
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I mean it seems a little bit more sporadic because
Charlie's always traveling and you know, I don't know I
still have it, and because he does it on Saturday
nights now, so sometimes that can be tougher to make.
Friday nights were perfect. You know, Saturday can be tougher,
but yeah, I love playing in that game. It's so
much fun, meet the coolest people there, and most you
could lose his sixty dollars unless you start playing cash,
(01:16):
which could get.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
The cash game gets gets kind of nuts afterwards. But yeah,
the tournament is a low stakes tournament, but it's super
fun and super competitive despite the fact that you could
only lose sixty dollars.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's so organized.
Speaker 3 (01:28):
I mean, I've played a lot of you know, I
don't know, let's say, underground poker clubs in New York
that had tournaments were way less organized than it's.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Like, it's great.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
Now he lays out all this amazing great selection of
whiskeys and tequilas and.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Stuff, and it's just it's fun. It's so much fun.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
I want people there who knew almost nothing about poker
and they had a blast playing.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
It's really a good time.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, it's And I meet people from that game all
over the place, like, oh, you know, it's a wide
few people. Your book sounds like it's going to be
just about gamblers, but you also talk about everyday advantage
players who are lawyers and strippers and magicians and movie directors.
(02:16):
What's the connection between all of them.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I think there are people who work really really hard, Like.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
That's the main thing.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
I mean, like to do this stuff, you have to
work really really hard and be devoted completely to your craft.
I mean, I think there's that. And I also think
that there are people who kind of figure out a
way to do things that other people can't figure out.
And I don't think anybody sits there and says, oh,
I'm going to think outside of the box.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
I'm going to come up with a new way of
doing it.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
But I do think that there are people who think
about what they do enough that they come up with
special ways of doing it. And I think that people
who maybe take a more casual approach to what they're
doing won't think about it as much and won't come
up with those kinds of techniques or strategies to do
(03:07):
special things. I mean, it's like those guys, the Safti brothers.
I mean, they're these amazing directors.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Uncut Gems was their first giant hip, but before that,
they did a movie called Good Time, which was how
I found out about them. And their movies are loaded,
like theyose star people who've never acted in movies before.
And I talked to Ron Shelton and he explained to
me because he used a lot of professional athletes in
(03:34):
some of his movies like Bulldoorum and Tincup, and he
was saying, it's so hard to get performances out of
people who don't know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Acting is really really hard.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But somehow the Safti brothers managed to get these amazing,
super believable performances, and they figured out a way to
do it that other directors you know, can't or won't.
So I find it really fascinating these people who come
up with ways of doing things that other people either
haven't thought of, or can't think of or.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Won't think of.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
What's your favorite of the advantage players you feature in the.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Book, Well, okay, so you know my favorite, of course
is the epilogue of the book talks about me being
diagnosed with an incurable cancer called mental sellom foma and
I was about to get brutal chemotherapy and I found
a treatment that was created by a doctor in Australia
for this very rare disease. And I mean it used
(04:32):
no chemo and involved taking six pills a day, and
that do very specific targeted things to the cancer and
getting an infusion every eight weeks of this drug called
a tuxamab, and I as of August, I've had zero
percent cancer in my blood. That's after having been diagnosed
with what was essentially stage four cancer. My bone marrow
(04:54):
was like forty percent cancer. So that guy is my
favorite advantage player in the book. He's the number one
for me, but I also love I mean, there's a
there's a guy named James Gross Jane who's like a
genius at beating casino games.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
And this guy will.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Figure out ways to beat games that casino's view is unbeatable,
to run these involved computer programs and find, you know,
things in the game that people who created the game overlooked.
Like he understands the game better than the guys who
created the game, which is pretty amazing. And then I'll
bring in his team and they've taken millions and millions
(05:30):
of dollars out of casinos.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
And he works really really hard.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
I mean, the guy's got, you know, an applied math
degree from Harvard, so he could have done a lot
of different things and he chose to go that route.
And I mean the stuff he does is pretty.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Amazing somebody help their child grow up to be an
advantage player. Like, what advice would you give if you were,
you know, parenting from day one. I know your girls
are post.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
College now, probably one's about the graduate and one is
out of college.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, I kind of wish I did think.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
That you are starting it all over again.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
What would you do serve.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
My kids into many advantage players. I think I would
just show them a way to look at the world
a little bit differently, like to look at situations and
maybe see more than what immediately meets the eye, Like
I mean from you know, like the people who are
advantage players do everything the right way. Like they'll walk
to a place the shortest way possible. They'll realize that, oh,
(06:29):
if you drive fifty five miles instead of sixty mile
fifty five miles an hour instead of sixty miles an hour,
it reduces your likelihood of getting to an accident bite
nex per set. I mean I would I think I
think it's a matter of like showing them things and saying, listen,
there's a better way to do every single thing.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
You know.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
It's like, you know when people talk about positive ev
you know, positive expected value. I mean that exists in everything,
not just like a hand of cards or a stock
market investment or something like that. And I think I
would encourage my kids to see where expected value is
and like to learn about that and to learn that
there's two ways to do everything, and you know, you
(07:08):
could do it the way that's going to be the
most profitable, the most rewarding, or the most beneficial to
maybe many people.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
I think that's kind of it.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
It's funny that positive expected value. I remember in the
poker forums, like when somebody would mention a girlfriend, it
would be like, oh, that's a negative expected value.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Exactly, we do this. Everything is about ev.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Right, absolutely. So in the book, you mentioned you placed
a bet for Heidi Flis, the famous Hollywood madam, when
she couldn't make one herself. What was that story about?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Oh we will.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
There was a there was a period of time, Okay,
so it's kind of a little bit of a story.
Whenever I come to Vegas, I used to play on
a pretty big card counting team. I still liked to
card count, but not for giants stakes or anything. And
he loves to gamble up blackjack, So whenever we hang out,
we'll play blackjack.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Together.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And the great thing about playing with Heidi is she
just wants to gamble, so she'll let me sit there
and count and jump in when it gets good. And
I said to I said, you know it's bad for
you for me to do this. She says, I don't care.
I'm just gambling. You can do whatever you want, which, well,
you should at least raise your bet if you see
me betting.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
She's like, okay, it's not that hands advantage playing really exactly.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
And I said to her, I said, listen, you got
to know I'm the biggest knit. I won't even make
a bet, a sports bet unless I know somebody told
me who knows what they're talking about, that.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
That was, you know, a good bet to make.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And she goes, oh, do you know you know anybody
could talk about NCAA. It was like there was you
know during the basketball season, do you have any good
NCAA picks for this weekend? Like, well, there's one guy
I know who would tell me, but he hates he
hates giving out picks because he bets all the time
and if you bet once in a while and you lose,
he's going to feel bad.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
And so this guy she knew who he was. He
was excited. I called him.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
He loved harder Goes, I will give you picks for
Heidi flies. So we were betting all the time, and
she couldn't.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I don't know. I think that she I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Why she couldn't get down somewhere there was a place
where she wanted to bet, and for some reason they
wouldn't take her bet. Maybe I don't know. I don't
remember now what this issue wasn't for a lack of money,
that was for sure. Maybe she could bet her limit.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I think that she had.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
There was a limit every day of how much you
could bet, and I think she had hit her limit.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
So she asked me to place a bet for her.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
So I think she bet like two grand on some
sports you know, on some NCA game that this guy
Alan Boston told us to bet on. And yeah, I
made the bet without even thinking twice. And the second
I made the bet, the money was you know what
I mean in my account? I mean, but yeah, I
was very happy to make a bet for Heidi. She's awesome.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Her.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
She lost the bet, Yeah, she didn't care, and I
felt bad. Oh my god, I feel bad that you lost.
Goes I'm a big girl. I've lost a lot of bets.
She didn't really bother her, which was the right answer.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
You know, We're going to take a quick break and
be right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Do you
think of yourself as an advantage player?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
I think of myself as an advantage player in some ways.
I mean, I certainly was an advantage player blackjack. I'm
an advantage player at kind of low buy in poker
tournaments with bad players. I think of myself as being
a bit of an advantage player in life. I mean
I certainly was when I got diagnosed with the cancer,
and I made sure I found the best possible treatment.
I didn't just settle for getting brutal chemo. I think
(10:25):
when I do I think as a journalist, I think
I'm a bit of an advantage player. How I approach
stories and how I interview people. I mean, I'll ask
questions sometimes that makes seem a little weird, and it
kind of gets things going. And I never take no
for an answer from people. I really really get them.
I really try to get what I can get out
of them. And I think also becoming a journalist in
(10:46):
itself was like a mega advantage play because it's just
been the greatest life. I've gotten to meet so many
cool people, traveled all over the world doing stories. I've
had amazing experiences, get to write for a living. I
mean that's pretty good, pretty good. That's an advantage play
in and of itself. So yeah, I do think of
myself as an advantage player, and I try.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
I do try to find edges at things.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I mean, not always like as obsessed as some people
who just do it for a living.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Art Like, I mean, I like positive EV but I
probably should be more positive EV driven than I am.
I shouldn't let it, I shouldn't leave anything on the table,
but I do because sometimes it's worth it to do.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to find the positive V
and everything. I don't know that I'm an advantage player.
I'm a sometimes advantage exactly exactly What do you worry about?
Speaker 2 (11:34):
That's an interesting question.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
I worry a lot about whatever's in front of me
at that moment. It's like, because I go for this
infusion of raretuximab every eight weeks, so every seven weeks,
I worry, like I'm like, oh, creak in my back,
Oh my finger hurt me.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Oh, I was coughing, Like the cancer is back.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
The doctor says, don't worry, like it's not going to
come roaring back, and you know in eight weeks. But
so I worry about when that's in front of me.
When I was doing this book, I endlessly worried about
like every little page, every little comment, every word drove
the publisher crazy. Like I worry about exactly what's in
front of me. Like if some things are now with
my kids, I worry about that in the moment, but I.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Don't sit around worrying about them.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
It's weird, like I seem to worry a lot about
whatever I'm focused on at that moment, Like right now,
I'm worried about getting a lot of publicity for this
book and selling books and pushing it all and turning
people onto like this way of thinking and hoping that
they get inspired by the book.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Yeah. Absolutely, I could see this book being a hit.
I think it's a really good concept.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, I appreciate the optimism.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
I mean, we're in this moment of everybody's trying to
maximize their potential and learn the better way to do
things and the advantage player guide of you know, try
to do everything in your life as most efficiently and
in the best way as possible. I really I could
see that.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, I hope so, I mean, I hope that people
see it and that they get inspiration from it.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And because it was.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Funny, I was talking, and I think people like the
term advantage player, like if you're if you're in the
gambling world, like you know, that's a pretty common term
among casino gamblers, but people who don't don't do that,
it's not really that known of a term. I mean,
I was, I was. Somebody said to me, well, what's
the formula. I'm like, well, it's not the kind of
book where there's like a formula. I kind of have
(13:29):
to It kind of should inspire you on how to
think rather than oh, if you do these three things,
you're going to be a millionaire and or a billionaire.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
If you have those let us know, oh I.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Will, I will, I will employ them, don't worry. And
but you know, I don't know, like I think, I
think it's hopefully will show people a way to think.
And I kind of a philosophy a little bit for life.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
What would you tell your sixteen year old self, what
would a sixteen year old Michael need.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
To know, tell them to work really hard, to to
give yourself a chance to get lucky. Like you know,
if you see an opportunity to not freeze up and
not take it. I mean, like I got like one thing,
I got two things. I got really lucky with where
when I was like living in like a rental apartment
in Manhattan, it came up for sale and I was
(14:17):
able to buy at a reasonable price. I bought that,
and then the neighborhood kind of blew up. It was
in Chelsea. The neighborhood blew up, and I was able
to sell that, and then I bought a Brownstone and
Park Slope and that kind of has blown up. And
I was like, I basically when I bought the place,
it was like I think it was selling for I
think I had to put down a fourteen thousand dollars
(14:38):
down payment. I had twenty grand to my name, and
you know, I had to pay a couple of grand
for a lawyer. So I was left with just a
few thousand dollars. But I just felt like I wanted
to get lucky. I mean, I think that's what I
would tell myself, like to see opportunities that may not
seem like complete locks in that moment, and just if
it seems right to take a shot.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
If you wait, then you're going to lose it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
And to just kind of give yourself a chance to
get lucky with things and to work super hard and
to be focused and you know, to be a good person.
And also you know what, this is the one other thing,
like when you see somebody who's like even a little
bit worse off than you, to have some empathy. At
least have empathy, not I saying, oh, give that person
your money, which you can, but at least have empathy
(15:22):
for them and kind of get it that like everybody's
not as I don't know, together or well offer has
going what you have going, and you know, try to,
I don't know, show them a little bit of love,
you know.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, did you see that trait or the empathy trait
a lot in the advantage players or are they focus
on themselves?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
It's interesting? Let me think about that.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Well, I mean some because some advantage players are insanely generous,
like they'll I think it goes both ways, like some
are crazy generous and some are so because you do
have to eat the same even being a journalist, you
have to be a little bit selfish. You have to
be a little bit self absorbed to do it, and
you have to kind of sort of have a big
enough ego, Like it takes a lot. It takes a
(16:06):
lot to be an advantage player. Like to walk into
a casino that was like build for billions of dollars.
They've got millions of dollars in security and surveillance. They've
got people there to stop people like you. That's their job.
To go in there and think you could do your
thing and take their money and walk out, then come
back the next day.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
And do it again.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
That takes like a lot of confidence. So maybe that's
another thing that I want I would tell myself, like
to be confident that you could do things and to
not get scared because there's some you know, you know,
organization or some group that's like way bigger than you
kind of saying you can't do it.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Like, don't let that stop you.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Did you see any
particular traits in all of them? In all the people
that you covered, was there I need to say.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
The drive like this drive and never never giving up
and like just doing it, like you know, the Safti brothers.
Like people think, oh, those guys you know, came from
out of nowhere, Like they work so hard, Like out
of college. They're making industrial movies. They were making music videos.
They were doing everything they can get their hands on.
They made these early like their early movies that got
(17:22):
them where they are. They made them for no money.
I mean, you know, I don't know, like you know
this guy, there's a guy in there, you know, I
don't know Eddie Teams. I mean he just was relentless.
I mean, like it's funny I met him. He's one
of the guys in the book. And this guy is
like incredibly sharp. He is a guy who would like
(17:43):
look at like one of the things he would do
is casinos would have like if you played enough slot machines,
they would then have a drawing at the end where
they'd be like, you know, ten the ten biggest players
of that weekend would get a chance to draw a
card with a blank you know, white back, and you know,
the worst prize is let's say a win breaker, and
first prize you know is a I don't know you know,
(18:04):
fifty thousand dollars car, so you want to get the
fifty thousand dollars car. And he trained himself to like
look and find the tiny little difference on that card
and then to come back and play enough to be
the first to pick, and then to pick that card
and win. He's had multiple cars doing stuff like that.
But when I first met him, it was at a
blackjack tournament and he was walking around with a book
(18:27):
filled with like post it notes sticking out of the book,
a blackjack tournament book. I'm like, my god, is there
anything corny or this guy brought a tournament book to
the tournament with all these post it notes. And I
didn't know who he was at the time. Then he
knew some people I knew. We sat down to have
breakfast and he's talking about things he did in the tournament.
I realized, this guy is at a whole other level.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
Than I am.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
And I also found out that his bookshelves are loaded
with books on all kinds of topics and they all
have a zillion post it notes sticking out and he
reads them before he does anything associated to that.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
So I think there's an element.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Of that kind of obsessiveness and hard work and just
not giving up.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That is a trait that you need.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
You might not know the answer to this, but are
they born with it or is it something that they develop.
I love the idea of the advantage player. I love
the idea of teaching yourself to become the advantage player.
But is it possible or is it just something that they,
you know, came here.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
I think anybody could make themselves an advantage player at something.
I think everybody has the advantage player in them.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
You know.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Listen, some people are just they just have a knack.
They're born with a certain gene almost. But I think
they are people who got good at something and then,
you know, just push themselves to get better and better.
I mean, and I don't know that something clicked in
their mind. I mean that made them want to do
(19:55):
this particular thing and just work relentlessly at it. I mean,
I was trying to somebody. A friend of mine's had
a fred whose daughter is in college and she wants
to be a journalist, and she was asking me about it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I said, look, I go.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
The thing is if it's not the thing you and
this is like the advantage player mindset. If it's not
the thing you want to do more than anything else
in the world, Like, don't do one of these hard things,
like do something easier. And if you would rather hang
out with your friends than do this thing, it's probably
not for you. If you would rather hang out with
your friends than go whack games in a casino, you're
(20:28):
probably not really an advantage play like these guys. The
great line from James gros Geen is he goes if
there's a good game, I'll go to places where the
cell phones don't work, like being he'll go anywhere, like
go to the remote, remote locations. Like he's not looking
to stay in fancy hotels. He's looking for games he
can crush. And he'll get on a plane and fly
to some far flung place on no notice if there's
(20:48):
a certain promotion, or if a game is on, or
if there's a dealer who's giving up whole cards.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
I mean, you have to have that kind of drive
to be.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
Successful in one of these kind of advantage playing worlds.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
In my opinion, when I first not when I first
got into poker, but when I was really into poker,
when my friend and I were going to Atlantic City,
you know, multiple times a week or that kind of thing.
We were always looking for the beatable games, and so
they weren't at the comfortable casinos. They weren't at Bargotta,
Borgotta had all the best players. They were at like
(21:22):
the resorts, which had two tables. That was our favorite
place to play. It was two poker tables in the
middle of the casino floor. So like some guy who
just wanted craps would like wander over with a beer
in his hand and be like, let me try some poker.
I've seen it on TV. And those were the games
that we wanted to play in, and people thought we
(21:42):
were crazy. They thought, why wouldn't you want to go
play in the place with the big comfy chairs and
the nice room and the whatever. We'd be like, that's
not where the winnable games are. And I, you know,
I wonder about that in life, like maybe maybe I've
been looking for the cushy chairs and missing the places
where winning is easier.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think I think there's an element to that. I
think there definitely is. I mean, like, when I like
the place, there's a place where I really like to
play black check and cardcat.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
When I'm in Vegas, I don't want to say the
name of it.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Resorts doesn't have a poker room anymore, doesn't have a
poker anymore, so I don't even think it exists anymore.
So it's okay, It's okay for me.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, this is a total dump Downtown. They have a
great double deck game and it's really beatable. And because
I don't play that much, so my skills are kind
of rusty. I'm not like as sharp, but just as
I was at one point, and I can go there
and I feel like I'm playing the game with a
little bit of an edge and it's low steak, so
I'm like, I'm able to spread without having a giant
you know what I mean, I'm not going to You
(22:42):
can lose, trust me. You can be in a great
situation still get crushed.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
But I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
It's like, yeah, I do think there's something to be
said for that, like for finding the thing that other
people don't want to do, or the place where they
don't want to play. Yeah, and that's and listen when
I say the place they don't want to play, that
applies to everything in life. It's not just casinos. I mean,
it could be the job, the profession.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
I talked to somebody once who was I was doing
a story actually on people who made money in like
unlikely professions, and was a guy. This guy had an
MBA and he could have done a lot of things,
and he got into the animal rendering business, which not
a lot of people want to be in. It's not
trust me, it's not glamorous, you know, dealing with but
he made he said it was. It's the business where
(23:26):
he was able to make a ton of money because
there was just so much opportunity that was untapped, and
if you were really smart and came in there, you
had chances that like you didn't have if you went
to work on Wall Street, where everybody's just as smart
as you will.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Right, Yeah, that's a really really good point. Well, I've
loved this conversation. I can't wait to read Advantage Players.
I leave us here with your best tip for my
listeners on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Say, the best thing you could do is, you know,
take trips to his exotical places you could find, listen
to a lot of music, read a lot, just enjoy
life and be nice and get the most you can
out of things.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I think like that taking in experiences will make life
better for everybody and all the people around you.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Also, he is Michael Kaplan. Check out his book Advantage
Players anywhere books are sold. Thank you so much for
coming on, Michael.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Thank you so much for having me. This was fantastic.
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