Mike Cernovich - Hard Truths in Trump World

Mike Cernovich is a political commentator.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to another episode of The Buck Sexton Show.
We're joined by Mike Sarnovich. He is an independent journalist, commentator,
or filmmaker, a man of many talents and abilities and
has a lot to talk to us about today. Mike,
first time on the show. Welcome sir, Thank you my pleasure.
So I gotta ask you, how are we doing these

(00:21):
days on the right when people ask you that question,
or what do you think about that? What are the
first things that come to mind? Well, the first thing
that comes to mind is they did when a mid
term with the House, and they did get a popular
vote majority, which mattered of course before the current time. Right, Well,
they won the popular vote for the House. That's the

(00:43):
good news. The other good news is the Senate is
looking good. In twenty twenty four, Republicans can retake that.
The you know, on the other hand, there's a lack
of purpose and mission caused by an obsession with the
twenty twenty election that like just won't go away. So

(01:06):
you have a number of people, myself included, and I'm
becoming more of a dinosaur who says, I mean, of course,
every you can read about the Jfkle election. You can
read about Bush versus Gore. Democrats had their opinion on that,
of course, but you have to move on or you
have to have some kind of solution. You can't dwell

(01:26):
on it. And the right is currently obsessed with it
and will not let it go. And anyone who doesn't
think that's the most important issue as a traitor controlled
opposition not ready for the moment. And that's people saying
that as a large percentage of the voting base, that's

(01:47):
a huge problem. And I don't know what, if anything,
is going to be done about that problem. Yeah, I
was gonna ask you what you said, a huge percentage?
What percent of the GOP base would you estimate based
on your interactions with them? Are completely and unalterably, at
least for now, committed to the idea that Donald Trump

(02:07):
won in twenty twenty, and therefore a replay of twenty
twenty in terms of strategy, candidate everything would be to
our advantage. I would say ten to twenty. Yeah, that
would be. That would be my guests as well. Is
there what would have taken me? So when I have people,
for example, calling on radio, and I'll bring up I

(02:29):
think Georgia is a perfect microcosm of this, right. I
think there are some states where you can look and
see and say, hold on a second. We were able
to win all but a race that was very much
associated with Donald Trump and with twenty twenty election issues.

(02:50):
And I'm not somebody thinks it was a clean election,
but that, to me, that becomes irrelevant at some point
unless we're talking about fixes to the election. Do you
think there's anything Is this an unfalsified bable claim. Now
for many people, the twenty election was stolen and therefore
it doesn't matter. We just have to have Donald Trump
again because he'll win this time. There's so there's two

(03:12):
elements to that. One is the people who I don't
think are annoying who say, hey, man, it was taken
from Trump unjustly, let him have another rematch. I don't
actually get upset by that point of view. I don't
agree with that. I think wrong, but that's within the
realm of reasonable dischorus. But there's fortunately it's not ten percent,
but it's probably one to three percent who would say, well, buck,

(03:35):
you bring up Georgia. But that's because they the voting machine.
People let these Republicans win. That's what they'll tell you
that there's control now to a level of granularity where
they can say, okay, well let this guy Republican win
and that one win, but we're not going to let
that one win. Those people drive me insane. Honestly, they

(03:58):
not insane, but they annoy me the way Internet spam
annoys me. And there's no reaching them. That's the bigger
problem too. So within that subset of the ten to
twenty percent we think we have to redo twenty twenty
is say, a percentage of people who they're not open
to reason. You can't say, hey, look we just had
an election, barely one why they barely won well, Florida

(04:21):
that map. We now have people attacking de Santas's redistricting
map in Florida, which is the only reason the House
has a majority, right because Lee's Alvin pulled a few
people up in New York to Santas is actually in
federal court or will be soon. Because when the Florida
legislator drew up a map, it didn't give Republicans much
of an advantage, but because the state had changed, it

(04:43):
was an unjust map. The Santas said, no, we need
to do a new map, and did a new map,
so there's barely a Republican majority. That's because of ld
In de Santas, not because the Trump Trump seemed to
have dragged down people who couldn't let go of the
t twenty election. And that would be the logical case
that I make. No that they're having you know, they're

(05:05):
having none of it. Can I ask you, you know,
as a guy who I think certainly became known in
conservative circles in the Trump era and relating specifically to
twenty sixteen and the rise of the Trump movement, are
you accused like? What are what are people who are
very who are so pro Trump that they don't want

(05:26):
to hear or they don't believe some of the arguments
you're making. Is the response that you've you've turned on Trump.
It just feels like you would have the credibility to say,
I still think a lot of what Trump did is great,
and I appreciate Trump, but I at this on this issue,
I break from some of the narrative. Right, do you

(05:46):
get any leeway for that? Well? I do from people
who know right. You don't see a lot of people
who are insiders saying too much because what I say
is actually true. But the funny, the funny criticism of
me is, and this is again because of maybe the
way that people are spoken to who are trump mooters.
You're either Trump or you're never Trump. And if you're

(06:08):
never Trump, you're the dispatch. And no, what do you
do with a guy who is hated by the never
trumpers despies. I'm sure you knew, especially in twenty sixteen,
I was hated, and because I was pretty ferocious, I
ruffled a lot of feathers. Twenty seventeen, still pretty hated
because I was pro Trump and I was knocking metaphorically

(06:31):
knocking heads of these dishonest conservative pipe piper leaders right.
So to me, if I were Trump people, I would
be worried. I would say, Okay, we know where Cerovic was.
He's not there now. He's so far over Trump, and
we need to find out why, and we need to
fix up with the inter is that they don't want

(06:52):
to engage with realities. So the realities. I sent you
an article from twenty seventeen Foreign Policy magazine. So people go,
you know, especially people who are new to politics, go
cerna of it. You're never Trumper, You're a nobody, You're
a loser without Trump or nothing, blah blah blah. And
here's all I gotta say. I was under federal investigation

(07:12):
by the National Security Advisor hr McMaster because my reporting
into the sabotage efforts directed at Trump were so truthful
and effective that they wanted to shut me down. The
Ukraine whistle blower who came up during that impeachment trial,
I reported that this person was looking to get Trump
set up on something, or to figure something out, or

(07:34):
to find a way to get Trump out of office.
I reported that in twenty seventeen, the name and everything
which you can't even say lo and behold the name resurfaces.
And oh, the same guy that I said in twenty
seventeen wasna was gonna be a problem. Oh so two
years twenty seventeen, two years later, now you're in trouble
for something that I warned you about. So when people

(07:55):
come at me with these ridiculous slander at this point,
the idea that that um that I I mean, never
Trumper who doesn't know anything, it's actually the opposite. I
was such a pro Trumper, and I was explaining what
was being done to sabotage Trump when he could have
reversed course, and they didn't want to listen. So then

(08:18):
in twenty eighteen, I said, I'm pretty much over this guy.
There's no real point and in doing this right point
Trump Agenda. I'm sorry, Mike, guess what I mean? Did?
Did the Trump Agenda get subverted by people that Trump
brought into his orbit or was the apparatus and the

(08:39):
deep state and the and the Democrat media just too
much so that the promises were not able to be
seen through? Right? What was it within Trump's control? Or
was it external forces that are too much for anyone
to be able to break through to fulfill all the
promises or even the biggest promises of the agenda build

(08:59):
the wall, for example. Well, you know the answer to that.
You were at Trump DC, and I'm sure you heard
because we are there in the same era. The same
thing that I heard is the only way to get
hired and the Trump administration is to prove that you
were never Trumper. In twenty sixteen and twenty fifteen, that
was the quote unquote joke. If you want a job
in the Trump administration, you better prove that you were

(09:21):
never Trump during his campaign, and we saw it over
and over and over again, who they put in charge
of things at State Department. You know, you can talk
to people like Amanda Militis is still loyal to Trump.
She's still called him the president. She's still loyal. But
you can ask her and she'll tell you, because again,
what I say is not dishonest. They'll all tell you.
Oh yeah, the people who are put in control, we're

(09:41):
all never Trumpers. And people would go and say, why
are you hiring never Trumpers? And Trump would just sort
of raised his hand, you know, yeah, how did that happen?
Though you know you were there. How did that happen?
How did never Trumpers take over the Trump administration? Seems bizarre.
Trump never had any interest in getting into the weeds
of how you create administration. Now. The excuse for that is, oh,

(10:03):
when you come from the private sector, you hire people.
Everybody shares a mission, everybody wants to make money. Oh,
poor Trump was naive, which I hate that line. I'm
forty five. I don't know how you old you are you? Yeah,
if you talked about me like that, I'd be insulted.
Oh poor Mike, helpless little baby, he didn't know. He's

(10:23):
so naive. I would be insulted, and that's how people
talk about Trump like he's a geriatric. Oh he just
didn't know how vicious it was gonna be. Well he didn't.
I mean, he had people telling them this. People like
me were telling them this. A lot of people, probably
people like you, were telling that to him or a
staff was at the very least, so they're the whole
always just he just never hered. He never gave a

(10:44):
crap about sitting down and saying, Okay, I'm the president,
now what can I do? How do I make this happen?
He fell right into the trap when firing Flynned with
the Russia Gate stuff. He was distracted by all of this,
these chaotic land minds going off about him and of saying,
why don't I just hire people who like me and
support me? And then of course Mike Pompeo started getting

(11:06):
the security clearance, this pool of Trump supporters I was
supporting that at the time didn't matter. He wasn't protecting
his staffers. They were getting walked out from the National
Security Council one by one. It was like a joke, like, oh,
who's getting fired today? Right? Rich Higgins Rest in peace?
Who you know succumbed to various medical conditions. A couple
of years ago, was walked out of the National Security

(11:26):
Council brilliant guy because he was too hard on China.
He wrote this memo explaining how China All this is true.
Now if you go read the Rich Higgens memo, everything
he said is true. So Rich Higgins was warning people
about the Confucius Institute. He was warning people about how
China is subverting the country via you know, university, and
for that he got fired, walked out. So why why

(11:48):
are people getting walked out? Can I just tell you
one thing that when I was in the CIA that
I used to say when they found out finally that
I was leaving, they reached out and I had I
didn't leave under wasn't angry or an event. I just got, honestly,
a cooler opportunity for me at the time, which was
the start of media career, which I wasn't looking for,
but I found me. But I just remember telling them,
I said, you know, guys, this is now. This is

(12:10):
from an analysts side, to be fair, but I said,
one of the problems in our business and I met
this in the whole national security National security sphere overall.
If I was in DC, I'd say written large, because
everybody in DC has to say written large all the time,
has sound serious. But one of the things was that
being right in the long run, meaning to be truly right,

(12:32):
doesn't matter. It's being right in the office with the
policymaker at the time of the discussion, such that they
like you and they want you back. The incentives are
all wrong. And just to what you said about your friend,
it doesn't matter who's right about the WMD, it doesn't
matter who's right about us China. It doesn't matter who.
What matters is do the people making the decisions like

(12:54):
you when you're a CIA officer, when you're an FBI,
you know, senior counterintelligence guy. Whatever's that's why you have
this this This plays out time and time again, Mike. Yeah.
And people were explaining that to Trump, but again he
had no interest in learning this. So that's why I
bring up I hate to be the old guy who

(13:15):
was well back when I was in high school, I
scored four touchdowns. That's not what this is about, right,
The reliving and glory days, those are actually quite stress
quite stressful. Actually, when the entire intelligence community has singled
out you a civilian for political and or worse style assassination.
So it's not like a glory. It's more like I

(13:35):
put my neck on the line. All of these things
I reported came out to be true. All of the
excuses people make are not excuses. It's not Monday morning
quarterbacking for me in twenty twenty two. To bring up
twenty seventeen, when in twenty seventeen, I and other people
close to the president were saying, Hey, you got a
problem here. You gotta get rid of certain people. Your

(13:55):
loyal people are getting fired. They're trying to completely rework
this into the Hillary Clinton National Security Council. You bet
you better handle your business right. I'll tell you. One
of my frustrations, Mike real quick about this is that
Trump brought me in in May of twenty twenty. I
thought it was because I was one of the first
people to say I don't know. There were some others,
you know, my friend Jesse Kelly, and there were a

(14:16):
few people who very early on April twenty twenty were like,
this is crazy, open up, no mask, this is insane.
But I thought he want to talk about COVID, He
want to talk about the intelligence community and some of
the top people who were still in that I knew,
you know, either personally or or well enough that I
could weigh in on And it was kind of funny. Now, granted,
Trump thought he was going to get four more years,

(14:36):
so I respect, but there was a part of me
that wanted to be like missus president. You know, you
know me and he had known me since I was
a kid. He had actually, Trump and his kids had
known me since I was thirteen or fourteen years old
in New York. So you bring me in now it's
been four years, you're asking me. I could have helped
him avoid some of the deep state bear traps that

(14:57):
he walked into. But he didn't ask my little well
me didn't, that's my opinion. You know, he brought in, Look,
he brought in a bunch of swamp guys. He just did.
And so you know, I sit here and I'm like,
I you know, it's like if I were you know,
you're a dad. I'm hoping to be dad soon. I
just got married. If I told if I wanted to
tell my kid, hey, you know, run this play on
the football field, but he won't even listen to me.

(15:18):
I can't even say it, and then he gets just
annihilated and sacked and loses the ball, loses the football.
That's how it felt to me. It's like, really, I
don't know that was frustrating. Well no, it's really I
didn't know that about you. And that's even more annoying
to me because yeah, right, so you're you're at the
Trump DC Hotel. You're hearing the same things that I'm hearing, yeah,

(15:40):
which is, oh, yeah, got walked out today? Well why Well,
because some Clinton appointee wanted the jobs, so they got
rid of the Trump person and they put a Clinton
person in there. And the intelligence community is indistinguishable under
Trump that it would have been under a Clinton president.
Seeing you're like, oh another one. Wow. So it's like
Friday night, like every Friday was a Friday night. I like,
are you're at Trump Trump the Trump Hotel DC? And

(16:03):
oh yeah that oh I'm out of a job now.
And then of course there was no soft landing for
those people. So you saw this. You know, of course
you could have and you know this, you could have
just had Trump walk through Trump Hotel in DC when
you know, when it was Trump Hotel when he was
president and just walking just people that he knew by
side a name, you know, you me others, and it's
been like, hey, guys, I'm thinking about bringing this guy

(16:24):
in or gal to some very senior, very important post.
What do you guys think? And we could have said,
you know, because we all knew, we would have said, sir,
this is a person who it's just about them. There's no,
it's not about service to the mission. It's certainly not
about service to your agenda. But some that feedback mechanism,
and I've tried to tell people this. It's like every

(16:45):
time I felt like I was trying to coach. And
I have a much bigger platform now than I did
during the Trump administration, to be fair, but every time
I felt like, even from what I had, I was
trying to coach Trump in the movement, out of out
of love for what was trying to be accomplished, I
got shot, Why don't you believe him? Four D chess?
Shut up? Why aren't you with him? I'm like with him,

(17:05):
I'm with him the way that you know the coach
whose desperate to see his team win is with him.
Like what and that feedback mechanism being broken? I think was. Look,
I think it's it's why Trump isn't president right now, folks.
I hate to be the one that has to say it.
That's why we got four years of Biden and maybe
four more which I want to I want to talk
to you about. It's like, actually, can we pause right
there for second, Mike, while I I got to talk

(17:26):
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(18:08):
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another another premise here. I want to throw your away
because you know, look, I'm just gonna say it, Mike
is one of for those of you who are on Twitter,
Mike is I think one of the most worthwhile Twitter
follows that you can have because you don't always know
what you're gonna get, but it is worthwhile. And I

(18:30):
feel like that's such a rarity on the right these days.
There's so many people who it's just we're all like
hamsters hitting the pedal. Right, it's like the same, Oh,
this is what you know, this is the talking point,
this is the talking point. You know, you're you're with
the movement, but you're not always aligned specifically with every
individual part of it. And I find it interesting. And
also we'll talk about some of the lifestyle and you know,

(18:50):
life philosophy, I think is a better way of putting
a life philosophy stuff that you get into so I
think that's really important for the right and just for
all of us. But I believe I believe it. Joe Biden.
You know, we spent a lot of time going haha,
he's Seenisle and whatever. And look I do some of
that too. I mean, you know, poking fun is poking fun. Um.
I think he's going to be formidable in reelection. And
I think people that believe that this is going to

(19:11):
be you know, that Trump, let's say it is Trump,
that Trump comes back and he's the nominee and it's
going to be a walk in the park for him,
I think that's delusional. And I think we only need
to be very honest that this is going to be
a dog fight zero percent Trump wins in twenty two
against I mean, there's I'll take, you know, I want
to make best. I'll talk about, you know what kind

(19:32):
of as they want to set, because that'll be the
easiest money that I ever make in my life. No desants,
barely de sants. It would be a close call. But
because there are issues with like I argue, an example,
we don't need to go to the moon is made
of green cheese or the infamous there was a server

(19:52):
I mean you I'm sure you remember as a former
CIA analysts and people were saying there was a server
shootout involving the CIA in Germany for votes in twenty twenty.
I was like, oh my god, yeah, we have a
we have a real problem here and I don't know
where're going to do about it. But they can't I mean,
they can't run ballots more than once. You know, it's
not hard to say, oh, we have a you know,

(20:13):
we're running the ballots and you know that there's a
certain district that's going to be heavily favorite of Viden.
You can't change it at the grand near level, but
you can say I'll run this one a couple of times.
There's there's there's nothing really stopping that. That's why you
need more poll watchers, which was a big issue in
twenty twenty, the whole of the pipers in Georgia and
then suddenly the Republican poll watchers were sent away and

(20:36):
there was no real solution for that. So there's a
lot of things that twenty twenty that aren't gonna go away,
and it's gonna intensify, And that's why you need Rohn
to Santaz, who's gonna say, hey, Buck, what do you think?
What do you think about twenty twenty? And you're gonna say, well,
there was no CIA shootout to steal the server. You know,
the moon is not made of green cheese. But yeah,

(20:57):
there are people doing double ballots. There are our pull watchers,
our poll watchers were kicked out. That's gonna come up again.
There is ballot harvesting. That's going to be a big problem.
They're going to these massive apartment complexes and maybe all
folks homes. So we need to start looking at addresses
because they're filling out the ballots for senile people. That
a lot of that was shown in twenty twenty. Right,
Oh here's a oh yet one hundred and fifty votes

(21:20):
out of here and it turns out as a senior
living center. Right, So there's a lot And because elections
are so close, everything like that really does matter, and
you need someone who's going to focus on that. Well,
this is the part of it that I also got
very frustrated after twenty twenty because anybody who wants to
talk about how we can find when there's illegal ballot harving,

(21:41):
ballot harvesting, find that stop that. Anybody wants to talk
about mail in ballot campaigns for Republicans, how we need
to match fight fire with fire, and say, look at Florida,
look at Rhndissantis just did in his reelection. Mail in
ballots can be done. It can be done safely and securely,
but you need to get the stuff set up. I'm
all about that. And looking for fraud and setting up

(22:03):
systems to catch fraud, I'm all about that too. But
whenever I say to them, at the end of the day,
it's scoreboard and if they put up the points and
we can't prove that they cheated, thinking they cheated is
one thing. Fine, Yeah, sure I think they cheated, but
I think they always cheat. If we can't prove it,
we lose. And this is just where we come to.

(22:24):
I mean, I had people in the months after the election.
I'd be like, and I don't mean when Trump is
still in office. I'm talking about you know, let's say
April of twenty twenty one. I'd say, oh, you know,
President Biden, and I'd be at live events. They say,
don't call him that, he's not the president, and I'm
looking at him like, guys, you know he is the president.

(22:44):
You can say, he cheated, and it sucks and I
wish it weren't the case, but like you know, we
got we gotta push through this a little bit. And
I just worry that the thinking of the twenty twenty
obsession is going to be a big problem for us
in twenty twenty four. And I try to tell Joe
biden't look, yes, everything you say about him, He's a clown.
His son is a disaster. They're criminals, They pedal influenced.

(23:06):
I mean, no one criticizes him and sees it I
think more clearly than I do. I mean, other people
see it the same way. But Mike, he's gonna get
forty nine percent of the vote, right, I mean that's
where we are. And I just need everybody on the
right to understand that because I see these polls. Oh,
people think Biden shouldn't run again. Guess what if he
runs again, those people who are Democrats are going to

(23:29):
vote for him without a second thought. We just had
an election. That's why I tell people too. People send
me polls here and there, and I go, we just
had a midterm, brother, Why are we talking about polls
a few months after a midterm? Yeah? Right, that's how
I feel about polls. This sixty one percent of the
country says that it's going to the wrong direction. Great,
we had an election and sixty one percent of the

(23:52):
electorate didn't vote Republican. Right, we didn't have that slave
that we thought. It was all very close, hotly contested elections.
Um Bobert almost sawst hearsy. It was. It was brutal,
and again without the Santest and Zelden, it very well
may have been a narrow majority under Nancy Pelosi for
another two years. I don't know the pull. And this

(24:13):
is again my biggest problem with the right, and probably
this spoils into my overall life philosophy. We if you
have an audience, you have to be a leader, and
you have to lead your people in the right direction.
You do not pander to their delusions because you want
another click, you want another retweet or whatever. I've never

(24:33):
pander to everything I've said, even the things which are
even the crazy things I've said, are aging better than
maybe I thought. It's because I believe it, and I
want to steer my people in the right direction and
telling telling our people, oh, yeah, sixty one percent Biden
wrong direct, I say, shake them up. Did you not

(24:55):
pay attention to what has happened? Two hundred and twenty
two seats, And it turns out Sam knows we're gonna
just plan on losing that one. So you need to
just be thinking already, how are you getting get bobert reelected?
She double recounts, right, barely. That's how close everything is
going to be. Every vote counts Orange County, there's still

(25:15):
one seat shy of where it was before the ballot
harvesting of twenty eighteen. So even though the California GOP
has gained ground and retook a bunch of the seats
that were wrongfully taken in twenty eighteen, there's still sheets
a seat shot. I was thinking of sheets. I was
thinking of the guys a dreams sheets actually, But it's

(25:36):
the electoral seats. And that's what we have to do,
is you shake our people up, you guys. You need
to focus on the right issues. I think that's that's essential.
M I want to ask a question. We'll hold because
I have to have to give a word to our
sponsor for a second, Mike, but when come back, I
want you to address this. Why is Mike Sarnovich considered

(25:56):
so controversial. I want to we can we get into
that a little bit, because you know, I follow your
Twitter and I'll sometime say it. Even sometimes people in
the right like, oh, well, I never get really, oh Cernovich,
he's so controversial, like the are the people in the
black helicopters are gonna come and kidnap me because I
follow Cernovich on Twitter and like some of the stuff.
We'll get back back into that in a second. But

(26:19):
the Tunnel of the Towers Foundation, I'm sure so many
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(26:39):
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(27:01):
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Donate eleven dollars a month the Tunnet of Towers at
t twot dot org. That's t the number two t
dot org. All right, Mike Cernovich controversial? Why do they

(27:25):
come after you so hard? Man? Well? What do you
do to upset the apparatus so much? Yeah? I often
say I'm probably the most widely read person that people
won't admit that they read because I'll say something no
one else had ever said, and then all of a
sudden that's circulating widely and largely. The reason I'm controversial

(27:48):
or seeing that way is in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen,
I viewed the presidency as an existential crisis, and stopping
Hillary Clinton was the most important thing that I could
have ever possibly have done with my life and I
didn't have kids. I honestly didn't care if that election
killed me. I didn't where I was at the time,
we would have been in World War three with Syria

(28:10):
and Hillary Clinton one. So as much as I you know,
Trump this all the criticism is buffered by the fact
that we prevented World War three by working to elect Trump,
and everyone should feel good about that for humanity. It
was one of the greatest gifts that we could have
given humanity in our lives, and Trump deserves all the
credit for that. But if twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, I

(28:33):
was pretty mean, if you were a you know, conservative,
was the term like, we've we fought viciously and we weren't.
We weren't nice to people. So I made a lot
of enemies, which, as you know, that's not a good
way to be an influencer or a media personality. It's
not good. Like lately, I think Jordan Peterson has been
doing things to sabotage the right. Who's he going to

(28:54):
criticize Jordan Peterson? Accept me. Nobody can say that I'm wrong, right,
everybody in my notification is when I said, well, wait,
why is Jordan Peterson calling out Christian rufo Into Santez
for trying to reform higher education when Jordan's whole brand
is the far left. Is it going too far? Well, okay, so,
but legislative action is happening, and now you suddenly have

(29:15):
a problem. No one else but me is gonna say that,
because well, one then you're gonna get You're not gonna
be on the podcast circle. You know, I'm I'm persona
on Garrata because Jordan Peterson is a you know, perfect saint.
But you notice, if you ever read the replies, nobody
says cert of it's you're factually incorrect. They go, oh,
you're jealous, his book sells more than you, blah blah blah.

(29:38):
Which is you know, and anybody who knows can attest.
I'm not trying to ever get on anyone's podcast. I
always say, find an email on me trying to trying
to be on someone's podcast, right, that's so far from
where I don't want to do. But there's no one
who if I think you're steering the right in a
bad direction or the country in a bad direction, I

(29:59):
don't care how popular you are. I don't care if
you have this halo effect on you. So I'll criticize
Trump and Jordan Peterson the same tweet, and then that
that then I'm controversial. Now Osernovich is at it again
rather than just say okay, well, but is he actually
correct though? Is this this is a correct point. So
a live of it is vibe and aura because I

(30:21):
got I mean, I go hard. That's why I don't
play um. I don't ask for sympathy or pity party
because I do go hard and people people go hard
back to me. But that's more where you know, why
people see me as controversial, because yeah, I do go
I do go hard. If I think you're you're up
to something that's steering the right wing in a wrong direction,

(30:41):
then I'm gonna come at you in a way that
other people won't. Speaking of the Jordan Peterson, I mean
one thing that I do think is getting a lot
more attention. That's Jordan Peterson. And then more recently there's
been um Andrew Tate, who, as I speak to you,
is still in prison. They have leveled all these allegations
against him. He's an American citizen who has not been

(31:03):
afforded time before a judge. They're just holding him. He
says he's innocent. The charges are are very serious. But
we know that he was speaking, particularly in the last
six months or so, a lot about what it means
to be a man, what young men should hear. And
people say, oh, we said all these terrible things the past.
I say, oh, well, that may well be true, but

(31:24):
there is still a need, regardless of any individual, regardless
of any influencer, to look at the all out assault
on masculinity and this is a real thing. We're all
aware of it that is underway. Toxic masculinity as a
term is something that kids are learning in school and
being taught that they should be aware of. Do you
think the right is doing is beginning to do enough?

(31:45):
I guess say, hey, you know, have we The term woke,
you know is whenever I say have we awoke in
I'm want to be like, oh, well, not wokeness, but
are we waking up to the all out assault on
masculinity and gender as part of the leftist program as
something that is an intentional part of strategy. That realization

(32:06):
m was part of why Trump won in twenty sixteen,
because he was seen as someone who really kind of
understood that that's why I think that Trump's most recent
nasty comments about the Santaest is just going to fail. Right, Oh,
here's the Santist at a graduation party. And they're like, oh, okay,
so here's a young de Santest and doing a normal thing.

(32:30):
And now so now they're trying to flip that, which
is what I by the way, I have no I
have no tolerance for the Oh he was a twenty
three year old teacher who posed in a photo with
some of his students and like, maybe one of them
had a beer. Let's let's charge it with some let's
let's allege or insinuate some kind of sexual impropriety. That
is that is bleeping garbage to do, and everybody knows it. Yeah,

(32:54):
and that was the graduation party, so you know, as
you know now it's a different era. But yeah, you go, oh,
that's our high school teacher come to a graduation party.
That wasn't a weird thing. And if you actually because
the New York Times reported all of this and they
said he didn't try anything, He didn't do anything. He
just showed up to a graduation party. The kids are like, oh, hey,
how you doing, How you doing, teacher? And he's like

(33:16):
hi and walks away. And then the New York Times,
the New York Times couldn't even turn that into anything right.
So if you go back and read it, when they
tried that, everybody said, oh, yeah, nothing weird happened. Oh
but in hindsight, he shouldn't have done it, right, that's
where they lend it to. So that just shows that
people playing into that narrative. They're playing into the left
wing narrative, which is that Okay, so if you're a

(33:39):
twenty three year old or twenty two to twenty four
year old man and you're with an adult woman just
in the room, you're a groomer. Now where did that
come from? That's left wing orthodoxy right there. So that's
where the people have again lost a plot. That's how
I'm gonna work. But that shows how deep the memes
are now when people on the right don't realize, oh, yeah,
I'm actually being played, or for example, the the Andrew

(34:01):
Tate thing, now people are if you go read those articles, boy,
the headlines don't match what's in the story. The headline
is the latest BBC one I read was oh, and
I'm in trouble for the Andrew Tait thing too, because
we've had cigars together too. So that's another reason I'm controversial.
So I've been embroiled in scandal after scandal where that

(34:23):
because I've smoked cigars with Andrew Tate. I have to
you know, I have to either disavow him and convict him,
or I'm just like, wait a minute, why don't you
read the articles? The latest BBC article was a woman
who said that, oh, yeah, I did cam and he
gave me half the money, but I felt like he
manipulated me. Oh and she had done sex work before.

(34:43):
And then she left and they broke up. Right, So
the headline is Andrew Tate abusive boyfriend, manipulator and I go, okay, well,
maybe this is finally, maybe they have something finally, And
then you read it and I go, wait a minute.
So he had a relationship with a sex worker. He
tried to get into camp, she didn't want to. Eventually
she did. He split the money with their fifty fifty.

(35:05):
She decided their relationship was toxic. That goes both ways.
Relationships with men and women are both toxic. That happens
regardless of gender. And then she broke up with them
and left it's like, okay, but we're being told that
the Tape Brothers are the real life Taken movie. That's
the narrative. The narrative is they're kidnapping people. The narrative

(35:25):
isn't that they're bad Boyfriend's human traffick. Human trafficking is
the allegation they're using human trafficking, which is which is
a heinous crime, right something people should go to prison
for decades for Haine's crime. I mean to the human
trafficking allegation. I've also read in the just in the
stories that there are people that are were allegedly human
trafficked who are coming and going on video as they

(35:48):
please with cell phones and buying designer handbags. So right,
if if that's if that's human trafficking, I know, I
do think you start to get to well, it is
the coercive Is it just the psychological brainwashing creates the
coercive force? But how do you measure that? Yes, and
we need to talk about that because that's the latest.

(36:10):
That's the latest ploy the late because two of these
two of the women who are free and walking around,
they're the victims. And the Ukrainian judge said, oh, you've
been brainwashed by the man. That's all left wing. So
the left wing now, that's why I was so disgusted
by Trump's tweet referring to the santests. And that is grooming.
Oh so we're the left now. And if you're an

(36:31):
adult man with a woman who was eighteen or older,
you are now a groomer. Groomors what happens to children, right,
Grooming is at something that you do not I personally,
if I'm twenty four and I'm a high school teacher
at that era, you just go to a graduation party
because you don't think anything of it, because you're actually
not a scumbag. Right, If you're a scumbag, you wouldn't say, like, oh,

(36:53):
take a picture of me because I want I want
proof that I gave your graduation. It'd be the opposite.
But that is left ing orthodoxy is they're going back now.
And you can see this in a lot of the
cases and the theory. The theory is that if you're
you're so man, your man brain is so powerful, and
then by extension, the female brain is so manipulable that

(37:15):
men are now emotionally manipulating women into doing things the
woman doesn't want to do and even if she doesn't leave,
and in fact, by not leaving, that proves your man
brain is so strong that you're able to exercise his
mind control over you know, fully formed adult women. That's
where it is. Because yeah, these two women said they

(37:37):
were on video and they're like, oh yeah, you know Andrew,
he was nice, we love him and everything. And I
thought to myself, well, you could find How would I
know this isn't just two random Romanian women? How do
I know these are the two women in the court case?
Because for me, I feel like I have a duty
to present if the Taps are being railroaded, I have

(37:58):
a duty to say something. So I saw that video
and I even tweeted, how could I know these women
are really his girlfriends? Right? How do you know? And
then you read the court Oh yeah, as it turns
out they are. They told the judge we don't want
anything to do with this, and the judge said, too bad.
I didn't realize by the way, you were so up
on this story. Do you believe the Tates are being railroaded? Well,

(38:20):
I certainly believe based on what I've seen that the
evidence is not matching the allegations and the media, because
if you're telling you there are six victims and two
of them have said we're not, and you're saying we
don't care. If they say they're not, they still are,
then that means that a lot of pressure has been applied,

(38:42):
probably to the other four. I did see this, by
the way, and one of the reports there were women
who have come forward who are considered to be some
of the human trafficking victims, who have told the court
and this is on record or told the authorities. I
should say, police, that's laughable. We meaning these two women,

(39:02):
I think there are six that we were absolutely not
human traffic human trafficking victims. That is reported right now, right,
so we know for a fact two of six say
we're not, and we know the judge said we don't
care you are. So what's they say about the other four?
Were they leaned on, were they pressured? Were they real
last why? I would like to see evidence. So then

(39:22):
the BBC goes, oh, we met one of the taps
old girlfriends and he's a terrible, terrible guy. And then
I go, okay, well, let's read the article and that's
the article I just mentioned. Do you think the Biden
administration is putting pressure on Romania in this regard? Is
that just too far fetched? People have reached out to
me to say they think that that is an element here.

(39:43):
If you believe the Tates are being railroaded, and we
need to say that's an if do would you believe
that the Biden administration may have a hand in that.
I think that it's more subtle than that. I think
that just like the DNC doesn't have to tell Twitter
to take things down, take down the FBI does. I
think with the Taits, you had guys who were trying

(40:05):
to be basically tweet out rap lyrics. Right whenever people go, oh,
here's this horrible video Andrew take I say, you know what,
if you're like me and you want to band pornography
and you don't believe rap music should be listened to
because you think you're hypnotizing yourself to negative lyrics. If
you want to band, I don't know what you heard
about me, but I'm a pimp from the radio, then

(40:27):
I'm really interested in what you have to say about
offensive videos. So we're gonna ban Snoop Dogg the pimp.
We're gonna be in all that rap music that talks
about pimping. Right, Oh no, no, you don't want to
do that. Oh you don't want to be in pornography. Oh,
less interesting. So you participate in pornography or watch it.
But then if a man is involved in the production,

(40:49):
now he's a groomer trafficker. Even if the woman said
you willingly did it, and if you talk like a rapper,
then that has to be taken is true, But rap music,
you see, there's no coherence to it. So what I
think happen is pretty simple. You are the tates. You
want to get known, You make exaggerated claims, and then

(41:10):
you start saying that you're bribing government officials that you're
not really bribing. What do you think is going to happen? Right?
That falls into the category of what do you think
is going to happen? You're embarrassing people, You're embarrassing powerful people.
I'll tell you that there are people on the right
who when Tate was talking about how the corruption works
in his favor, and this just I draw on my

(41:33):
background in the CIA and learning a lot about other governments,
which is the most fascinating part of being in the CIA,
because obviously we got a lot of info. You know,
other government. We do have more sophisticated technology. We do
get a view that they don't want us to have, obviously.
And the one thing that will get you in trouble
in a corrupt country is bragging about the corruption in

(41:54):
that country that you say is in your favor. That's like,
it's like the first rule of fight club is never
talking about fight club. You're in a corrupt country, Eastern Europe,
anywhere else in the world, and it's working out for you,
It's going to stop working out for you the moment
that you say, oh, yeah, the corruption here benefits me.
I think. I think the tates that's a that's a
lesson from this process, irrespective of everything else, you know,
the whether they're pressure being brought to bear to bring

(42:17):
these charges, etc. Whether they're guilty or not, which I
don't know and I don't profess to know, um, but
I do think that you don't want to talk about
corruption in a corrupt country if you're if you're planning
on staying there right, if you're really doing it too,
which makes me believe that they it was just I
think it was just all an act. I thought they're
I think they're trying to be real life rappers. They were,

(42:39):
they were mimicking what rappers say, and that because if
you're really bribing people and bragging about it, then I
have to reconsider my view of you, right, And there's
nothing about the Tates then indicates that they're not, that
they're low IQ. Right. You can say they're evil, you
can say you can say whatever, that's a moral judgment.
You can say it they're evil, but nobody has ever

(43:00):
said they're not. I don't know Tristan really, but I
mean I've just from what I've seen in interviews with Andrew,
he's a he's clearly a high IQ individual like that,
that is obvious. Right, So if you're high IQ, you're
bribing government officials, would brag about bribing government officials, right,
That's kind of how I see it. And then of

(43:20):
course people who don't like the Tastes have to wrestle
with the corruption issue, namely that the Tastes were arrested
in March twenty twenty, they were released the next day
because apparently video evidence cleared them. Then they get re
arrested in December. Okay, so was Ukraine corrupted March when
they let them go are they corrupt? Now? Why aren't
they being tried? Why are they being held? You know,

(43:43):
because Ukraine has this weird system where you can be
charged but not really tried. Is this literal m Yeah, Romania.
They're in Romania and they can be held. I think
you can be held. I read that you can be
held for up to a year without actually having a trial.
A year I mean now J six J six defendants
can apparently in DC be held for about eighteen months

(44:06):
in solitary for in some cases non violent crimes. So
you know, we're gonna poke it. Romaaning on this would
and say, oh my god, oh my god. But as
we know, if you get on the wrong side of
the deep state in this country, that can happen to you.
But I wanted to ask you though on a more
on a more positive and constructive note, four young men,
because one thing, one thing that I can tell does

(44:27):
really rattle the left is when young men have this
moment of recognition that the left wants them to be miserable, unhappy, weak, controlled,
and uh, you know, effectively, you know, low T low IQ,
do what you're told, Triple Masks, get your seventh booster shot,

(44:49):
and you know, sit there, call yourself a male feminist.
Don't excel, don't exceed, don't you know, suppress all your
masculine urges. And the right actually has people, by the way,
like you and others who are saying, no, actually being
a man is what you are meant to do, and
that that inspires I think young men. I think there's
something important there. Well, that's where I had to thread

(45:12):
the needle that I find interesting too about the Tate
thing because the Tates were giving a message of that
I don't even agree with, which is, oh, you need
a car, need the watches, you need the swag. And
I realized they were just doing that for marketing. So
that's why I think the Tate thing is such an
interesting phenomena, because a right wing critique of the Tates

(45:33):
would be, well, if you're chasing watches and cars, you're
actually chasing left wing secular hedonism, right, You're not You're
not teaching. And I realized it takes it more. And
I'm gonna have the tape people. Matt. I love this
because I'm gonna have the Tate haters man, because they're
gonna say I defended him, and I'm gonna have the
tape super fans mad because they're saying that I'm like
somehow attacking them, right, But the way I look at

(45:56):
it is that we'd I You know, you don't ever
see me fronted, never see me flexing. You don't want
to do that which you want to teach young men,
Find your purpose, find your mission. You're allowed to have one.
You don't have to live for women, because too much
of a conservative Christian movement, unfortunately, is, oh, you're a man,
you know your job is to be like a pack mule,

(46:17):
loads yourself up and well where it's not even necessarily biblical, right,
So where are you even getting at the Bible. So
there's a there's a third way, which is masculinity is
about finding your mission and finding your purpose, waking up
and trying to accomplish something right, trying to fight with
the dragons, trying to wrestle with depression, trying to have

(46:40):
some vibe right, some aura. So much of that, so
much of it is a feeling. And that's what men
not only need to be told, but that's what people
like us have to try to model in our own way.
But to say, hey, look, man, you're gonna get beat
up people are gonna say stuff about you, this nasty.
I've been attacked over a lines of blue and tape.
Imagine the same three weeks, you're attacked for allegedly the

(47:03):
human trafficking thing, and then allegedly for knowing somebody who
is allegedly maybe has an alternative narrative on her own
traffing story. Right, and but you just but that's where
you just as a man, you just say, man, this
is part of life. Right, How lucky it is that
we get to do this all day and we get
to take these attacks. Imagine how our lives could have
ended up so differently or so much less interesting. I

(47:25):
do think that's important. I do think that the same
way that if you believe in you know, the the
duality that is that essential to our existence. Right, if
you believe in heaven, you believe in hell. If you
believe in good, you believe in evil. With those with
the basic framework for understanding our day to day lives
in place or our existence, I should say, you're going

(47:46):
to piss some people off because if there are if
there's evil in the world, there are people doing evil,
and if you're going to do something about it, you're
going to upset those who are wrong. You're going to
upset those who are making the world a worst place.
So while you know I don't go out there looking
to stick my thumb in the eye of people, there
are people whose hatred or disdain or whatever is a

(48:10):
badge of honor. And I do feel that way right
And you know you're smiling. You do enjoy poking your finger.
It's okay to admit that. Okay, Okay, that's true, Okay
to tell It's okay to tell men you know what.
Conflict is good, but it needs to be conflict for
the right cause. Rights. It's okay to have a little
bit of indignation if it's righteous INDI Nation. It's not

(48:31):
okay to be a Karen. It's not okay to be
crying over nonsense. It's not okay to hate women or
to say because you have some bad dating experiences at all,
women are like that or is And it's not okay
to just be a pack mule to let get walked on. Either.
Conflict is okay, but you need to again find that
purpose within yourself and then find out that it's a

(48:51):
righteous cause, and then conflict is good and it's necessary.
And I think it's very healthy and it's very masculine.
One thing I want to ask you about. You know,
there's this trend I'm sure you've seen of women shaming
men for allegedly looking at them in the gym, right
if you've seen this, and this has got a lot
of attention recently. There's a lot of things I would

(49:12):
say by this. I mean, I go to a gym
down here in Florida where I've never experienced this before
in New York City, but there are a lot of
women in the gym who are you know. I just
got married recently too, so I've got got the blinder song.
But there are a lot of women in the gym
who are influencers. Some of them are known to other

(49:33):
Jim staffers, for example, as having very lucrative only fans careers,
things like that, and so that's very common here in
South Florida at certain gyms. You're just gonna look at
this where for people look a certain way, they have
to spend a certain amount of time at the gym.
And I get all that, but I worry that women

(49:54):
are are not being given good messages and a variety
of ways about their beauty and that it is now
being it is now thought of more than ever as
a commodity, meaning the monetizeable, that your sexuality and your
beauty as a woman is a monetizeable asset first and
foremost beyond anything else instead of something so yes, of course,

(50:15):
be charity. You know you have a lovely wife. I
have a lovely wife. I would say, you know, you
can trust a guy with a lovely wife. But that's
the point is actually to appreciate beauty and to also
to see it for what it is. And for a
lot of these women, I think to find a great
I mean, you know we're supposed to say life partner,
but husband, I mean to find somebody to build a

(50:36):
life with. And attraction is important in all this. And
I just think that now you have a lot of
these women who won are very insecure, even though they're
very good looking, because there's a hyper focus on it
because of social media. And two it's just like an
ATM machine now and they wait until they're forty and
then they turn around they're like, well, I'm so beautiful
now I want my husband gets a lot harder, Well,

(51:02):
it gets yeah, it gets a lot harder for men too,
And that's something that I've noticed that when you watch videos.
One actually good TikTok trend is day go and ask
older people, oh, how old are you and they'll say,
I'm sixty five. What's sixty five feel like? And one
of the themes is that you see the world the
same way, but you're old now, right, And if you're
a man, you usually have more self awareness and realize, Okay,

(51:24):
I'm gonna I'm an old old guy now, And for
oftentimes the women, it's harder to make that transition, which
is in your mind, like you know, you're forty one,
I'm forty five, and our minds were still like twenty five, right,
And that's actually how men get injured doing things because
you're like, oh, I no, no. My wife asked me
earlier to climb a tree and I was like, I'm
not going to climb that tree. She goes, well, I
go because if I fall down, I'm gonna hurt man.

(51:46):
You know if I were, we're still there. Yeah, keep going. Yeah,
And so the world looks at you differently and a
lot of people have to accept that. But as to
h the gem thing, it's like a lingerat show Man.
Sometimes it really is ridiculous. One gem I going. I

(52:08):
started going on a different hour because I don't I
don't want to just have those curient thoughts like I
don't watch pornography. I try to avoid the IG. I
changed my algorithm so I don't see you know, all
that kind of stuff. Go ahead, No, no, no no, I
didn't want to interrupt you. I just I think this
is so important for men while while while promoting masculinity.

(52:31):
And look, I'm the first to admit I drank too
much in my twenties. I should have worked out more.
I should have gotten more sleep, you know, twenties in
into my thirties. I you know that there were some
things that I would change definitely about my behavior. I
will say I've actually never said this before on radio
or on podcasts, but I made the decision, maybe it
was about fifteen years ago, to just just no pornography,

(52:55):
just like not you know, just no pornography, because I
really started to feel like there was a desensitization that
occurs from it where you can appreciate, you know, just
everyday female beauty. And I think that it really does
damaging things to the male mind. Um if especially if
you make it a habit of looking at at pornography.

(53:16):
And I still feel like to this day when you
say that, people think, oh, are you like, are you
a Puritan? Do you wear like the shoes with the
little buckles on them? Whatever? It's like, But I appeared
in at all. I'man sitting here talking about like hot
chicks in the gym. But but I do think that
every you know that that balance and context and and
understanding habits in which are habituated to as a man

(53:37):
is really important. And it's the it's the grating too,
I think. So for me, I went through large phases
where I didn't I didn't watch it, and then I
would get in a bad phase and then I wouldn't
watch it, and then I just gave it up once
and for all because I just not to be too crude,
but I just I think it's undignified to turn on
a laptop and get moisture. It's just disgusting. You're like,

(54:01):
this is just like there there's if there's a night
and I'm eating a bag of chips on the couch,
I'm just like, you're a disgusting person, you know, like,
who are you like? And I get up and you know,
there's just the idea that if you're a man, you
should have some kind of basic level and dignity and
you know, laying around with pringles in your face. It's
just a gross way to live. And the same thing too,

(54:23):
is up gonna fire up the old laptop. That's gross. Man,
you don't want to live like that, right, You are
capable of so much more as a man, How do you? Totally,
I totally agree with you, and I think that people
on the right should feel more Look, just people in
general should feel Guys in general should feel more comfortable
talking about how the I think one of the ways
that the apparatus tries to control you is actually is

(54:44):
actually through the desensitization of the twenty four seven access
to pornography and the normalization of that. Like there's just
you know, for a long time, people forget there was
more porn being watched on the internet than literally anything else.
I mean, right, And again, I know it sounds like
I'm like, you know, like church lady, why are all
the people watching the port It's like, no, that's not
That's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say.

(55:05):
It's not good for the guys who are doing it
as somebody who appreciates female beauty and thinks that you know,
having a you know, having an attractive girlfriend or a
wife or whatever something that should be aspirational for men.
And you know, attractiveness is in the eye of the
beholder and all that, and I get that too, but um,
I think that this is an area where there could
be a lot a lot more done. Mike. I could

(55:25):
talk to you for like three hours, but I'm not
quite at the level yet, like like the Rogan three
hour long podcast, so we're gonna have to have you
back for another time. Um. I just wanted what what
what it makes you feel positive about the future and
that you think people should hear. And then I want
you to tell everybody where they should go to follow
your work and just sort of see what you're what
you're up to these days? Well, what makes me feel

(55:47):
positive about the futurists? Always remember we just had the
one hundred anniversary, well recently we had the one hundredth
anniversary at the end of World War One, and I
always encourage people to go read about that war and
what lives would have been like if we had been
a draftable age and that in the Battle of Psalm
and learn more and more and more about World War One.
Do you have a favorite World War One book? Yeah,

(56:10):
Paul Fussell wrote a book. He also wrote a book
class about it, and I forget the book title, but
Paul Fussell's book on World War One is my favorite
because I's in a lot of poetry and a lot
of the literary devices at the time, and the death
tolls are literally incomprehensible. Would be like, right now, well

(56:31):
that happened, Okay, there's one hundred thousand men dead. That
makes me optimistic. Also, why we have to make sure
we don't bumble our way into it with Russia and
Ukraine because we bumbled into it. So that is really
is still the best time to be alive. Man, All this,
oh there's a war on men? This all that's true.
You would still never ever, ever if one had been

(56:53):
born in another air because there's a man. You can
create your own destiny, right. I don't believe in living
the life heatonist, but if you wanted to live a
life of Roman emperor as a man, you could. You
could do that. And don't do that, guys, I don't
think that's a good way to live, but you could
there's no there's never been a time in the history
of the world where you, as a man can really

(57:13):
choose your own adventure if you want to work for it.
And every day I'm grateful because look at us, we're
talking like this. Now, this would have been impossible. We'd
have been working the fields as medieval peasants. Right. Yeah,
we're hanging out talking and hundreds of thousands of people
are gonna hear our conversation, maybe benefit from it a
little bit and be able to say, you know, I

(57:34):
learned something or I have a different perspective on things.
And we didn't even have to leave our houses to
do it. It's really pretty crazy. And then people are
able to listen to so even if they have a
job that's maybe a little bit boring, well I had
boring jobs too, and you didn't have pot. You had
a portable CD player if you're lucky, a walkman or something.
So there's never been a better time to be alive,
and people should recognize that where they follow all things Cernovich.

(57:57):
My sub stack is pretty good Mike Cernovich substack dot
com and then Twitter at Cernovich. But the substack. We're
doing things very little politics. There are much more culture, family,
trying to scare things in a different direction. Awesome, Mike,
great talking to you man. Ever since we hung out
that time at the Trump Hotel, I figure we're going
to be able to do a long form and we'll

(58:18):
have you back because there's a lot more I'm sure people,
and I hope people will tell me what else they
want you and me to talk about in the future,
and as this podcast continues to grow in addition to
you know, the radio show I do, which fortunately is
rather substantial. So we're going to keep keep this going. Mike,
thank you so much for your time, and it's great
to see you. Thanks brother,