November 20, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode of Normally, Mary Katharine Ham and Karol Markowicz dive into a wide-ranging conversation that mixes sharp cultural insight with personal stories. They break down the bizarre RFK Jr.–Olivia Nuzzi scandal, analyze why Democrats are resurging while Republicans struggle to connect, and explore the troubling decline of families with young children in America’s biggest cities. They also take a hard look at the post-pandemic education crisis—from learning loss to controversial standardized testing policies—and what it all means for parents, students, and the future of American schools. Normally is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, we are back on. Normally they show me normal
it takes, but when the news gets weird, I'm Mary Cathorham.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Carol mark Witz, Mary Catherine. My youngest son,
the football playing one, has a concert at school today
because he has started playing the trombone and the keys.
And you know, the joke about this in our house
is my other two are like straight A students, and
he's a little fast and loose with the grades. But
he's the one who's going to get into any college
he wants because a football playing trombone player is just
(00:35):
a popular thing.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I love a trombone player. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Trombone is like the same size as him.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. We also
had a performance in our house today and I had
skated into school like two minutes before my daughter got
on stage, as is my way. I love it. Yeah,
but it was lovely, although I always because they go
to this little school where they sing these little adorable songs.
And I am really good at controlling my emotions in
(01:03):
public unless little children sing about Jesus to me, and
then it is absolutely embarrassing. I have to stand at
the back because I will be sobbing. I want to
see this. And then my kids think it's so funny.
They're like, every time she comes, she just cries in
the back. It's so cute. I can't handle it. I
(01:24):
love it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I love it. Ie where little kids sing about Jesus
to you and watch you cry, it's.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Like really, it's like immediate, immediate, alrighty.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay, all right. So remember when everybody was like the
Democratic Party is over forever and will never rise again,
and you and me were like, I think they'll rise again.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, they're rising.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
They are rising again. It turns out that one of
the two parties did not actually just drop dead after
losing a political presidential election. They had things go their
way in the off year election, as we've talked about
on the show. And now some midterm numbers are out
and they are looking absolutely bleak, and yeah, I don't
(02:12):
know who could.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Have predicted who could have predicted this? Yeah, the generic
ballot numbers, which is what pollsters asked to get a
handle on, like sort of, you know, if there were
a Republican or a Democrat, not specifying anyone whom you
have personal feelings about, which way would you go? And
We're looking at like a fourteen point spread in favor
of Democrats right now. That matches. It's bad. Republicans historically
(02:38):
do not run at the same party ID or generic
ballot numbers as Democrats. Generally, they often have an advantage
on that. But had we had come to parody and
even gone beyond Democrats in many polls, and so this
one doesn't, it doesn't bode well, I'll tell you that
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Right, you know, it's the The problem is that the
right is mired in I don't use the R word,
so I'm just going to say abject stupidity. They loudest
voices on our side are like re litigating World War
Two and finding Hitler to be the good guy. They're
obsessed with Israel and turning our closest ally and yes
(03:19):
they are our closest ally into our greatest enemy. Not
just like we should stop funding them, but like, actually
they're evil and want to bring down the country. They're
discussing whether the first Lady of France has a penis.
And these are the people getting millions and millions and
millions of views, leading thinkers, leading thinkers, yeah, on the right,
And so I just can't help but blame the conversations
(03:43):
that the right is having because this is what people see.
And if I were to see, if I wasn't super
into politics and I was kind of pay a little
bit of attention and suddenly I'm hearing Hitler is good
and you know, elevating the Nick Fointis's, et cetera, I
would be like running in the other direction from these people,
(04:05):
which is what I feel like the normies will do
if the conservative world doesn't get a handle on this
and start talking about actual issues that actually matter to
real people and make that happen, you know, through the
election and beyond.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, I mean, you have to keep convincing people. And
I think this is a good thing. Republicans are still
ahead of where they were because turning Latino voters and
young voters, particularly male young voters, not young female voters.
But turning those demographics into a swing vote is an accomplishment, right,
Like those are voters that in the past the left
(04:42):
was like, these belong to us. Okay, so you did
some work. You turn them into swing voters. They can
swing the other way. And that's also, by the way,
good for those demographics because people have to compete for them.
This is a thing that makes their relationship with politicians
more healthy. Well, unless I guess you don't politicians talking
to you or trying to figure out what you're into.
(05:03):
That's just what happens when you're a swing better. But yeah,
they can swing back. And to your point, Carol, if
you're not delivering on promises to them, if their lives
don't look measurably better, then you're going to run into
trouble reconvincing them that the time they pulled the lever
for you was did what they thought it would do.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You know, yesterday the House unanimously basically, I think one
person said no, but passed, you know, releasing the Epstein files.
As we've said many times on here, release the Epstein
files whatever. But it's irrelevant, it's irrelevant to people's lives.
It does not matter. I can make a prediction that
there's not going to be anything interesting in those Epstein
(05:47):
files that we don't already know. If there were, the
Democrats would have released it. Be serious here, But all
of this, and again, if you're talking about Epstein and
whether or not he was a pedophile or you just
like the girls a little bit, younger, or if you're
talking about all the topics that I covered in the
first few minutes of this, you know, first ladies of
(06:10):
France and their penises. I think you're going to find
the American people very turned off.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, and I think too, I'm a bit with the
conventional wisdom crowd on the idea of the She's for them,
they them, I'm for you ad. That ad was very successful,
and I think some Republicans probably over read how successful
that ad was. Right. One of the reasons that was
successful is a because that stuff is crazy and gone
(06:39):
too far from normal voters, but also because it I
think it's a signifier of people being out of touch
when they care about this thing more than the groceries
that you're trying to buy. So that cuts both ways. Though,
if you're a Republican and that's all you talk about,
and I think it's a righteous fight, it is a
righteous fight to keep boys out of women's dressing rooms
(07:01):
in the Northern Virginia schools, you should be mad about it.
You should talk about it. But if it becomes the
only thing you talk about, people will think you're not
paying attention to other things. In addition, like I think
that the economy buoyed partly by the AI industry and
energy unleashing that Trump has had a large part in.
He has stimied himself to some extent with tariffs, and
(07:22):
you can see that with the admission that, like we're
going to remove some of these tariffs, that it'll bring
prices down. Now. I think, look, he loves tariffs. He
was very clear about it. Yeah, you be lighted on
that he likes to make the deals. However, if you
are sort of like futzing around with prices and bringing
them up in certain areas of people's lives for things
they really like, like coffee and bananas, they will react
(07:44):
badly to that, right, and they'll notice. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And also, I mean, look, Democrats are also talking about
Epstein NonStop. It just Republicans have been unable to capitalize
on their distraction. They've been capitalizing quite well on our distraction.
And I think that they've also just the Republican being president,
like you said, the fact that he does have some
control over prices in some capacity, I think that they're
(08:13):
able to pin certain things on Republicans in a way
that Republicans just haven't been able to do.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
In reverse, I would also note for Republicans, like, be
careful with whatever plan you're coming up with. I know
this is like, you know, the chances of that happening
are low. But the shutdown messaging. Some more recent polling
after all the fallout and after the government has opened
back up, shows that Democrats wiped the floor with Trump
on shutdown messaging, which is not as it should be.
(08:40):
I feel very like, right, where's Brian Stelger crying about
a post truth society?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
When when literally where is Brian? Literally? These people vote
fifteen times to keep the government shut but the message
that people got was that it was Republicans. Now, I
do think that's partly because Republicans are branded as that
party shut down party.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Sure, yes, but it wasn't them this time.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It wasn't. The fact is you have to factor that
into the way that you are doing messaging, in the
way that you are making decisions. If people are primed
to think of you as the guy who does that,
you need to be a lot louder or a lot
clearer or Donald Trump needs to use the bully pulpit
in a lot clearer way. Gosh, that guy talks all
the time. But like do it in primetime. Do it
in primetime on the networks. Yeah, make them carry you.
(09:25):
But I think that is a real warning sign for
whatever tactic they take on in the future.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, Republicans have some time to turn this around. It's
just that we're in such disarray right now that it's
almost funny to think back to, you know, not that
long ago. Donald Trump only got elected a year ago,
and the message around the country was that's it. It's
over for Democrats. Republicans are going to win everything forever. Listen,
(09:51):
if you listen to Normally, you know two people who
were saying maybe not, maybe not.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You got to keep convincing people politics is it's you
got to keep the politic in gooing. Alrighty, we'll be
back on normally in a few minutes. With the scandal,
let's sex scandal, this thing good old fashioned fun.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
We are back on normally. Where Look, is this a
sex scandal? It's so hard to say, because let's just
put it out there. Olivia Newsy wrote a book about
having an affair with RFK Junior where no sex has
had and I find that perplexing personally. The book is
(10:36):
called American Canto, and it is a tale of Robert F.
Kennedy Jr. On the trail meeting Olivia Newsy and the
love that developed between them, the insane texts that they
sent each other. But again no sex and as far
as I understand, not even not even like a kiss,
like nothing.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, we should set the stage to Olivia Newsy for
the stage. Don't know. Is like a was like a
very up and coming young journalist, got these fascinating profiles,
got access to people, I'm gonna say in intimate ways,
and by that I mean like she would get these
one on one profiles where she spent a lot of
time with folks and would turn out interesting work about them,
(11:18):
like high level political people. Then she blew up her
career to some extent by having this sexting relationship and
probably seems like infatuation with RFK Junior. While she was
covering him, she was also at the time engaged to
Ryan Liza, who is another political figure, wrote for Politico
(11:38):
for a long time, has written for Esquire all sorts
of outlets, and so this became public. She then went
after him in court saying he's like blackmailing me and
all sorts of things. Ryan stock up for himself and
was like, no, no, no, none of that is happening, right,
she writes this book, at which point we find out,
by the way via some of these excerpts, did she
(11:59):
just have really good before because I remember her writing
being better than this. And then Ryan Liza, on the
release of this book, is apparently mad that she said like,
I'm not going to talk about this anymore if you
won't talk about this anymore, and then wrote a book
and then wrote a whole book mm hmm, and Ryan
(12:19):
Liza is like, okay, I will write about the Danieu
mal the unraveling of this relationship. And it's a it's
a subset post essentially entitled How I found Out?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, the How I found out? Man just texting you
as I'm reading it, And then I'm reading How he
found Out? And he's actually a beautiful writer.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
You don't think his final revenge is that he is a.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well done And he finds a note about a water
tower and how she would drink all the water and
the water tower above his house or and and then
he's like, I don't have a water tower, but that's
not about me. Yeah, And then we get to the
end and we find out.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That because the whole time you're thinking it's RFK Junior.
And by the way, spoiler alert, because y'all don't never read. Yeah,
y'all don't need to read six pieces about this sex scandal.
We're just going to tell you about it. I'm going
to tell you about it.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
We're gonna we're going to give you the away, the ending.
You get to the bottom. And it's from twenty twenty
and she slept with then candidate Mark Sandford. Now, if
you don't remember who Mark Sandford is, he was governor
of South Carolina, and he went missing for a few days,
and then he came back and said he was hiking
the Applechian Trail, but in fact he was having like
(13:34):
a full blown affair with some woman in South America
while totally married and in the governor's mansion.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Correct. Yes, he went away.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
For a few years, came back as senator.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
I believe no, No, he's a house member, house member,
and then ran for president and she, Olivia Newsoo, profiled
him and ended up sleeping with him, allegedly.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
At his South Carolina home. That was some good revenge
because that piece was like everybody pretty much was like you.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Got to read this. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Also revealed in this piece is that she had a
long time, long term relationship with Keith Olberman, Yeah, who
paid for a lot of high end jewelry and clothing
and a place for her in New York City and
that Ryan quote you know her from this entanglement. Oh oh,
the entanglement where I get all the Cardier and the
(14:26):
nice bags.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
But Keith Olberman.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Look this, there's there is a thing about this story
that annoys me in a very specific way, because tell me,
I don't love when people can't hold their ish together
in public under rather minor duress, when.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I actually no duress at all, no, no.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Dress at all, Cardier bracelets and a burgeoning, beautiful career,
when I have held mine together under extreme duress in public.
And I don't like that it pays to unravel like
this in public. I don't think it's healthy for her,
or for the audience, or for media. And I actually
kind of wonder if this is like a last gasp
(15:13):
media scandal. It feels like very very old fashioned.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And I actually was speaking on a college campus the
last night and asked if anyone knew who this person was?
Not one right, No, one knew who this was. And
in the media world, these people are important, right they
have cachet totally, Yes, in another generation.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
None, right, I had to explain this story, not had to.
I chose to explain this story to a lot of
normies in my life, including my sister in law who's visiting,
and I was like, Okay, you don't know who any
of these people are. Yes, but like you know, we
have to stop for every Like you know Keith Olberman,
he used to be on ESPN, but now he's like
this internet lunatic who just screams at people.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
This is the problem. Everyone's arc is so long. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, but you know, the normies enjoyed the gossip and
then they went on about their lives. They will not
remember who these people are going forward. They don't matter
to them at all. I wish them all the best.
I wish them all the best.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'm a bit of a grump about this story because
it is fascinating to talk about it, and it makes
me like a little annoyed with myself that I find
it so fascinating because I don't want to be into that,
and also I'm annoyed at the playing into the stereotype
of this Songeen new smart young woman who I think
in many ways was a talented reporter, right, and now
(16:33):
everything she's done is tainted and I that's not a pun,
and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
What it is real, but it actually, guys, is a pun.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I don't know what's real and what's not. And that
is part of the problem with modern media, such a problem. Yeah,
her version of getting access is so much more lude
and obvious, but like the bias and the access gaining
that she's doing is just a dirtier form of what
we've seen in many other places, and you can't trust it.
(17:04):
You can't trust these people.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, where like where does the information come from? On
my one of my group chats, my Florida group chat,
they have a running joke that I get my tips
from Hunter Biden. Like occasionally I get, you know, a
big tip, and they're sort of random, my big tips
because I have a lot of tipsters, and they're like, okay,
it has to be Hunter Biden, like somebody like really
high up. And so I just want to say, I
have not slept with Hunter Biden for any of these tips.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Thank goodness, thank you. There is a thing here where where,
particularly for women who are in the industry, When something
like this happens, it makes everyone suspect suspect just as
like that's the problem with sexual harassment and systematic abuse
like happened with Roger Ailes. Is like everyone looks around
and goes, oh, you must have done that too, because
you were young when you got hired at Fox, and
(17:52):
to which I have a very good answer, which is
rodri Aiels was neither professionally norse actually interested in me,
and athletics were not their thing over there, so I
was like in the clear. But it does not feel good. No,
it does have every woman looked at in this way
and think, well, how does she get that interview?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Who's associated Olivia? I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
We'll be right back with more on normally and slightly
less sexy topic, but let's talk about education some more.
We are back on normally, where it turns out that
there is a sharp decline in the number of families
with young children, and that that's under five in major
(18:38):
cities in the last like almost twenty years. It looks
at from two thousand and five to twenty twenty four,
Chicago had a thirty one percent drop, Boston thirty three percent,
New York thirty four percent, La thirty six percent, San
Francisco thirty eight percent. And the cities that have gained
population are Austin, Orlando, Raleigh, Charlotte, Dallas, and some others. Now,
(19:02):
as my kids like to say, one hundred percent of
the people who confuse correlation with causation die. But I'm
going to risk it and correlate anyway and point out
that all of the places with this population drop were
the strictest on schools reopening, and the places with the
big gains weren't now one hundred five years old. Means
these people are not kids are not in school yet.
(19:24):
But I think that a message was sent to parents
and it was well received. Where schools were closed for
over a year, you know, a year and a half
in a lot of places, and parents got the message
at schools just weren't important. And just to clarify, of course,
only public schools were closed. Private schools were open. Parents
got the message public schools cannot be relied on in
(19:46):
these cities, and they left.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, I think American cities liberal American cities during the
twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, and look, I want
these cities to succeed, sure, but too I looked at
them and was like, you guys are committing suicide. You
are already the cost of living is so high, and
the cost of living is so high for some perks.
(20:09):
And the perks are like activities and theater and music
and good dying food. Yes, all those things, right, And
then what did you do? You took away the perks,
but you left the cost of living. And then you
added some public safety disarray, just like danger everywhere, chaos, vandalism.
And then you tell people when they say it's hard
(20:31):
for me to raise children here, this is just the
cost of doing business.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, right, it's always been like this, Like no, I
really wasn't always like this.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
And that is not an acceptable answer to them. So
what happens is they go, I don't know, this seems hard,
dangerous and expensive. I think I'll move on to somewhere
like Raleigh, where I can get a decent little piece
of land with a decent home on it for a
much lower price and there aren't vagrants on every corner
because it's a different style of governs than it is
(21:01):
in my city, and you're right, Carol. The schools are
a huge part of this. I know, of course, like
people I know in DC, it's basically understood that none
of them are sending their kids to public schools there.
That's just not even a possibility. It's off the table.
So it's this other huge expense on top of living
in an expensive city. And by the way, what do
(21:22):
you get for sending your kids to those schools? Well,
I have a still mad about it, bro for.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Us, still mad about it, bro, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Are still mad about the inability of schools to educate children.
And The Atlantic has a piece called a Recipe for
idiocracy What happens when even college students can't do math anymore? Now,
this is the jumping off point. Is this? You see
San Diego study which I appreciate those professors flagging its
saying we need to do something about this, because they
(21:51):
could have kept hiding the ball easily. Yes. The opening
paragraph to this is for the past several years, America
has been using its young people as brats and a sweeping,
if not exactly thought out education experiment. Schools across the
country have been lowering standards and removing penalties for failure,
the results are coming into focus. I just want to
list a couple of the things that she discover rails here,
(22:14):
just found out of that. Now, this reporter, by the way,
I don't want to go like, I don't know what
her personal views were on COVID and closing schools. She's
very young, so like she's just reporting. Fine, let's I'm
not going to hold her feet to the fire over this.
But the elite class in general, one of the courses
tutors noted this is the UCSD, but students faced more
issues with logical thinking than with math facts per se,
(22:37):
meaning they did not even know how to read and
begin solving a word problem. Okay, scary. The decline started
about a decade ago and sharply accelerated during the coronavirus pandemic.
One theory is, of course, that attention shredding influence of
phones and social media is to blame. But that's not all.
Or maybe students have stopped achieving in math because school
(23:00):
have stopped demanding it of them.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
During the George W. Bush administration, federal policy emphasized accountability
for public schools. Schools that saw poor performance on standardized
tests received increased funding at first, but if scores still
didn't improve, they had their funding pulled. Research suggests that
this helped improve math outcomes, particularly for poor black students
after those of us.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Who were there though, that was called racist. Yes, even
though it helped poor black students go ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, After twenty fifteen, federal government backed off from its
accountability measures. There's more. The pandemic supercharged the decline. Districts
that spent most of the twenty twenty one school year
mandating remote learnings saw students fall more than half a
grade behind in math. Districts that reopened earlier saw more
modest declines, and then to cover it up, many districts
(23:50):
adopted things like No Zero's policy, forcing teachers to pass
students who had little command of the material. And then
finally the colleges discontinued, particularly in California, standardized testing so
they couldn't know that these kids weren't learning. So just
to review pandemic closures, expectations, universal expectations, punishments for not
(24:13):
meeting expectations, and standardized tests not acceptable. Yeah, what are
the things we've been saying for for years feeling it's
those things actually I feel like I feel like we
may have said those things. We have said those things.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
The non standardized testing is sort of the colleges bad here.
It's like you allowed students in without a standardized method
by which to judge them. Everything became subjective and you
had to know this was going on. Why did you
get rid of SATs? And I understand the pandemic era explanation, like,
(24:47):
oh not everybody could have taken the SAT in twenty twenty.
I mean it's twenty twenty five, how are things going now?
Everybody could take it like well your chimble mask.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Some of that was the you know, this compassionate response,
like things are hard for everyone, so let's not make
it harder by holding people to expectations. And I actually
want to there's actually research that shows I'm familiar with
this because of my own family going through bereavement and
losing a parent. When you go through something tough, it
actually isn't the answer to drop standards and to get
(25:16):
rid of and to be as kind to yourself as possible,
Particularly for kids going through hard things, keeping standards is
more beneficial to them. Yeah, keeping their schedules is more
beneficial to them, And so I think some of that
was well placed, like, oh my gosh, everything's so stressful
right now, but you're right, five years later, this is
(25:37):
just hiding failure. It's just hiding failure. And eventually you
get to the point where college students cannot do middle
school math or elementary school math.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeap, and teachers' unions try to get parents to opt
their kids out of the standardized test way before twenty twenty.
I remember in Parkshall, Brooklyn, where I lived, super left area,
it was just there was pressure to get opt your
kids out because kids shouldn't be taking standardized tests. Oh
my kids are taking standardized tests, so they'll be not
(26:07):
opting out here. But yeah, there was a lot of
pressure from teachers unions on parents, especially on left parents,
to say that we shouldn't be held accountable because our
kids are failing at every level, and teachers should be
held accountable. Of course they should. The better teachers will
get better results. That's how it works. And this misplaced
idea that nobody should fail and all failures should be
(26:30):
hidden leads us to this moment.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And I think what concerned me perhaps most about that
is what I feel like the underlying problem is is
that we are losing societally the skill of thinking, and
you could see it the skill of learning itself. Yeah,
and that is the part where like you can't just say,
like a calculator in AI is going to be able
to do all this for you. You have to learn
(26:54):
to think, and those muscles are atrophying extremely quickly.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I think all these things were bad ideas ten
fifteen years ago, and it's a.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah here we are listen to us going forward? Is
really the message here from all three segments, I think, Yeah,
I'm not sure we commented on sex scandals before, but
don't have one.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Hey, you know we could do just look at our
lives and how we've conducted ourselves. I think that you know. Yeah,
although I have said that the trashy, crazy trajectory for
a media career is rewarding in the cash area, were.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Doing it all wrong. Actually, if you want to, if
you want to be want to be upfront about it,
because we are being not maximizing our.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Being not insane and being not trashy must be rewards
unto themselves because they're going to have to be and
we're doing those things.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays,
and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get
in touch with us at normally theepod at gmail dot com.
Thanks for listening, and when things get weird, act Mo
Hey, we are back on. Normally they show me normal
it takes, but when the news gets weird, I'm Mary Cathorham.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Carol mark Witz, Mary Catherine. My youngest son,
the football playing one, has a concert at school today
because he has started playing the trombone and the keys.
And you know, the joke about this in our house
is my other two are like straight A students, and
he's a little fast and loose with the grades. But
he's the one who's going to get into any college
he wants because a football playing trombone player is just
(00:35):
a popular thing.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I love a trombone player. That's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Trombone is like the same size as him.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. We also
had a performance in our house today and I had
skated into school like two minutes before my daughter got
on stage, as is my way. I love it. Yeah,
but it was lovely, although I always because they go
to this little school where they sing these little adorable songs.
And I am really good at controlling my emotions in
(01:03):
public unless little children sing about Jesus to me, and
then it is absolutely embarrassing. I have to stand at
the back because I will be sobbing. I want to
see this. And then my kids think it's so funny.
They're like, every time she comes, she just cries in
the back. It's so cute. I can't handle it. I
(01:24):
love it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
I love it. Ie where little kids sing about Jesus
to you and watch you cry, it's.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Like really, it's like immediate, immediate, alrighty.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Okay, all right. So remember when everybody was like the
Democratic Party is over forever and will never rise again,
and you and me were like, I think they'll rise again.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, they're rising.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
They are rising again. It turns out that one of
the two parties did not actually just drop dead after
losing a political presidential election. They had things go their
way in the off year election, as we've talked about
on the show. And now some midterm numbers are out
and they are looking absolutely bleak, and yeah, I don't
(02:12):
know who could.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Have predicted who could have predicted this? Yeah, the generic
ballot numbers, which is what pollsters asked to get a
handle on, like sort of, you know, if there were
a Republican or a Democrat, not specifying anyone whom you
have personal feelings about, which way would you go? And
We're looking at like a fourteen point spread in favor
of Democrats right now. That matches. It's bad. Republicans historically
(02:38):
do not run at the same party ID or generic
ballot numbers as Democrats. Generally, they often have an advantage
on that. But had we had come to parody and
even gone beyond Democrats in many polls, and so this
one doesn't, it doesn't bode well, I'll tell you that
it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Right, you know, it's the The problem is that the
right is mired in I don't use the R word,
so I'm just going to say abject stupidity. They loudest
voices on our side are like re litigating World War
Two and finding Hitler to be the good guy. They're
obsessed with Israel and turning our closest ally and yes
(03:19):
they are our closest ally into our greatest enemy. Not
just like we should stop funding them, but like, actually
they're evil and want to bring down the country. They're
discussing whether the first Lady of France has a penis.
And these are the people getting millions and millions and
millions of views, leading thinkers, leading thinkers, yeah, on the right,
And so I just can't help but blame the conversations
(03:43):
that the right is having because this is what people see.
And if I were to see, if I wasn't super
into politics and I was kind of pay a little
bit of attention and suddenly I'm hearing Hitler is good
and you know, elevating the Nick Fointis's, et cetera, I
would be like running in the other direction from these people,
(04:05):
which is what I feel like the normies will do
if the conservative world doesn't get a handle on this
and start talking about actual issues that actually matter to
real people and make that happen, you know, through the
election and beyond.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, I mean, you have to keep convincing people. And
I think this is a good thing. Republicans are still
ahead of where they were because turning Latino voters and
young voters, particularly male young voters, not young female voters.
But turning those demographics into a swing vote is an accomplishment, right,
Like those are voters that in the past the left
(04:42):
was like, these belong to us. Okay, so you did
some work. You turn them into swing voters. They can
swing the other way. And that's also, by the way,
good for those demographics because people have to compete for them.
This is a thing that makes their relationship with politicians
more healthy. Well, unless I guess you don't politicians talking
to you or trying to figure out what you're into.
(05:03):
That's just what happens when you're a swing better. But yeah,
they can swing back. And to your point, Carol, if
you're not delivering on promises to them, if their lives
don't look measurably better, then you're going to run into
trouble reconvincing them that the time they pulled the lever
for you was did what they thought it would do.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
You know, yesterday the House unanimously basically, I think one
person said no, but passed, you know, releasing the Epstein files.
As we've said many times on here, release the Epstein
files whatever. But it's irrelevant, it's irrelevant to people's lives.
It does not matter. I can make a prediction that
there's not going to be anything interesting in those Epstein
(05:47):
files that we don't already know. If there were, the
Democrats would have released it. Be serious here, But all
of this, and again, if you're talking about Epstein and
whether or not he was a pedophile or you just
like the girls a little bit, younger, or if you're
talking about all the topics that I covered in the
first few minutes of this, you know, first ladies of
(06:10):
France and their penises. I think you're going to find
the American people very turned off.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, and I think too, I'm a bit with the
conventional wisdom crowd on the idea of the She's for them,
they them, I'm for you ad. That ad was very successful,
and I think some Republicans probably over read how successful
that ad was. Right. One of the reasons that was
successful is a because that stuff is crazy and gone
(06:39):
too far from normal voters, but also because it I
think it's a signifier of people being out of touch
when they care about this thing more than the groceries
that you're trying to buy. So that cuts both ways. Though,
if you're a Republican and that's all you talk about,
and I think it's a righteous fight, it is a
righteous fight to keep boys out of women's dressing rooms
(07:01):
in the Northern Virginia schools, you should be mad about it.
You should talk about it. But if it becomes the
only thing you talk about, people will think you're not
paying attention to other things. In addition, like I think
that the economy buoyed partly by the AI industry and
energy unleashing that Trump has had a large part in.
He has stimied himself to some extent with tariffs, and
(07:22):
you can see that with the admission that, like we're
going to remove some of these tariffs, that it'll bring
prices down. Now. I think, look, he loves tariffs. He
was very clear about it. Yeah, you be lighted on
that he likes to make the deals. However, if you
are sort of like futzing around with prices and bringing
them up in certain areas of people's lives for things
they really like, like coffee and bananas, they will react
(07:44):
badly to that, right, and they'll notice. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
And also, I mean, look, Democrats are also talking about
Epstein NonStop. It just Republicans have been unable to capitalize
on their distraction. They've been capitalizing quite well on our distraction.
And I think that they've also just the Republican being president,
like you said, the fact that he does have some
control over prices in some capacity, I think that they're
(08:13):
able to pin certain things on Republicans in a way
that Republicans just haven't been able to do.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
In reverse, I would also note for Republicans, like, be
careful with whatever plan you're coming up with. I know
this is like, you know, the chances of that happening
are low. But the shutdown messaging. Some more recent polling
after all the fallout and after the government has opened
back up, shows that Democrats wiped the floor with Trump
on shutdown messaging, which is not as it should be.
(08:40):
I feel very like, right, where's Brian Stelger crying about
a post truth society?
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
When when literally where is Brian? Literally? These people vote
fifteen times to keep the government shut but the message
that people got was that it was Republicans. Now, I
do think that's partly because Republicans are branded as that
party shut down party.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Sure, yes, but it wasn't them this time.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
It wasn't. The fact is you have to factor that
into the way that you are doing messaging, in the
way that you are making decisions. If people are primed
to think of you as the guy who does that,
you need to be a lot louder or a lot
clearer or Donald Trump needs to use the bully pulpit
in a lot clearer way. Gosh, that guy talks all
the time. But like do it in primetime. Do it
in primetime on the networks. Yeah, make them carry you.
(09:25):
But I think that is a real warning sign for
whatever tactic they take on in the future.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yeah, Republicans have some time to turn this around. It's
just that we're in such disarray right now that it's
almost funny to think back to, you know, not that
long ago. Donald Trump only got elected a year ago,
and the message around the country was that's it. It's
over for Democrats. Republicans are going to win everything forever. Listen,
(09:51):
if you listen to Normally, you know two people who
were saying maybe not, maybe not.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You got to keep convincing people politics is it's you
got to keep the politic in gooing. Alrighty, we'll be
back on normally in a few minutes. With the scandal,
let's sex scandal, this thing good old fashioned fun.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
We are back on normally. Where Look, is this a
sex scandal? It's so hard to say, because let's just
put it out there. Olivia Newsy wrote a book about
having an affair with RFK Junior where no sex has
had and I find that perplexing personally. The book is
(10:36):
called American Canto, and it is a tale of Robert F.
Kennedy Jr. On the trail meeting Olivia Newsy and the
love that developed between them, the insane texts that they
sent each other. But again no sex and as far
as I understand, not even not even like a kiss,
like nothing.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, we should set the stage to Olivia Newsy for
the stage. Don't know. Is like a was like a
very up and coming young journalist, got these fascinating profiles,
got access to people, I'm gonna say in intimate ways,
and by that I mean like she would get these
one on one profiles where she spent a lot of
time with folks and would turn out interesting work about them,
(11:18):
like high level political people. Then she blew up her
career to some extent by having this sexting relationship and
probably seems like infatuation with RFK Junior. While she was
covering him, she was also at the time engaged to
Ryan Liza, who is another political figure, wrote for Politico
(11:38):
for a long time, has written for Esquire all sorts
of outlets, and so this became public. She then went
after him in court saying he's like blackmailing me and
all sorts of things. Ryan stock up for himself and
was like, no, no, no, none of that is happening, right,
she writes this book, at which point we find out,
by the way via some of these excerpts, did she
(11:59):
just have really good before because I remember her writing
being better than this. And then Ryan Liza, on the
release of this book, is apparently mad that she said like,
I'm not going to talk about this anymore if you
won't talk about this anymore, and then wrote a book
and then wrote a whole book mm hmm, and Ryan
(12:19):
Liza is like, okay, I will write about the Danieu
mal the unraveling of this relationship. And it's a it's
a subset post essentially entitled How I found Out?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Yeah, the How I found out? Man just texting you
as I'm reading it, And then I'm reading How he
found Out? And he's actually a beautiful writer.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
You don't think his final revenge is that he is a.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Well done And he finds a note about a water
tower and how she would drink all the water and
the water tower above his house or and and then
he's like, I don't have a water tower, but that's
not about me. Yeah, And then we get to the
end and we find out.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That because the whole time you're thinking it's RFK Junior.
And by the way, spoiler alert, because y'all don't never read. Yeah,
y'all don't need to read six pieces about this sex scandal.
We're just going to tell you about it. I'm going
to tell you about it.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
We're gonna we're going to give you the away, the ending.
You get to the bottom. And it's from twenty twenty
and she slept with then candidate Mark Sandford. Now, if
you don't remember who Mark Sandford is, he was governor
of South Carolina, and he went missing for a few days,
and then he came back and said he was hiking
the Applechian Trail, but in fact he was having like
(13:34):
a full blown affair with some woman in South America
while totally married and in the governor's mansion.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
Correct. Yes, he went away.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
For a few years, came back as senator.
Speaker 3 (13:45):
I believe no, No, he's a house member, house member,
and then ran for president and she, Olivia Newsoo, profiled
him and ended up sleeping with him, allegedly.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
At his South Carolina home. That was some good revenge
because that piece was like everybody pretty much was like you.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Got to read this. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Well.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Also revealed in this piece is that she had a
long time, long term relationship with Keith Olberman, Yeah, who
paid for a lot of high end jewelry and clothing
and a place for her in New York City and
that Ryan quote you know her from this entanglement. Oh oh,
the entanglement where I get all the Cardier and the
(14:26):
nice bags.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
But Keith Olberman.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Look this, there's there is a thing about this story
that annoys me in a very specific way, because tell me,
I don't love when people can't hold their ish together
in public under rather minor duress, when.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
I actually no duress at all, no, no.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Dress at all, Cardier bracelets and a burgeoning, beautiful career,
when I have held mine together under extreme duress in public.
And I don't like that it pays to unravel like
this in public. I don't think it's healthy for her,
or for the audience, or for media. And I actually
kind of wonder if this is like a last gasp
(15:13):
media scandal. It feels like very very old fashioned.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And I actually was speaking on a college campus the
last night and asked if anyone knew who this person was?
Not one right, No, one knew who this was. And
in the media world, these people are important, right they
have cachet totally, Yes, in another generation.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
None, right, I had to explain this story, not had to.
I chose to explain this story to a lot of
normies in my life, including my sister in law who's visiting,
and I was like, Okay, you don't know who any
of these people are. Yes, but like you know, we
have to stop for every Like you know Keith Olberman,
he used to be on ESPN, but now he's like
this internet lunatic who just screams at people.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
This is the problem. Everyone's arc is so long. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, but you know, the normies enjoyed the gossip and
then they went on about their lives. They will not
remember who these people are going forward. They don't matter
to them at all. I wish them all the best.
I wish them all the best.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I'm a bit of a grump about this story because
it is fascinating to talk about it, and it makes
me like a little annoyed with myself that I find
it so fascinating because I don't want to be into that,
and also I'm annoyed at the playing into the stereotype
of this Songeen new smart young woman who I think
in many ways was a talented reporter, right, and now
(16:33):
everything she's done is tainted and I that's not a pun,
and I don't know.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
What it is real, but it actually, guys, is a pun.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
I don't know what's real and what's not. And that
is part of the problem with modern media, such a problem. Yeah,
her version of getting access is so much more lude
and obvious, but like the bias and the access gaining
that she's doing is just a dirtier form of what
we've seen in many other places, and you can't trust it.
(17:04):
You can't trust these people.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, where like where does the information come from? On
my one of my group chats, my Florida group chat,
they have a running joke that I get my tips
from Hunter Biden. Like occasionally I get, you know, a
big tip, and they're sort of random, my big tips
because I have a lot of tipsters, and they're like, okay,
it has to be Hunter Biden, like somebody like really
high up. And so I just want to say, I
have not slept with Hunter Biden for any of these tips.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Thank goodness, thank you. There is a thing here where where,
particularly for women who are in the industry, When something
like this happens, it makes everyone suspect suspect just as
like that's the problem with sexual harassment and systematic abuse
like happened with Roger Ailes. Is like everyone looks around
and goes, oh, you must have done that too, because
you were young when you got hired at Fox, and
(17:52):
to which I have a very good answer, which is
rodri Aiels was neither professionally norse actually interested in me,
and athletics were not their thing over there, so I
was like in the clear. But it does not feel good. No,
it does have every woman looked at in this way
and think, well, how does she get that interview?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Right?
Speaker 3 (18:12):
Right?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Who's associated Olivia? I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
We'll be right back with more on normally and slightly
less sexy topic, but let's talk about education some more.
We are back on normally, where it turns out that
there is a sharp decline in the number of families
with young children, and that that's under five in major
(18:38):
cities in the last like almost twenty years. It looks
at from two thousand and five to twenty twenty four,
Chicago had a thirty one percent drop, Boston thirty three percent,
New York thirty four percent, La thirty six percent, San
Francisco thirty eight percent. And the cities that have gained
population are Austin, Orlando, Raleigh, Charlotte, Dallas, and some others. Now,
(19:02):
as my kids like to say, one hundred percent of
the people who confuse correlation with causation die. But I'm
going to risk it and correlate anyway and point out
that all of the places with this population drop were
the strictest on schools reopening, and the places with the
big gains weren't now one hundred five years old. Means
these people are not kids are not in school yet.
(19:24):
But I think that a message was sent to parents
and it was well received. Where schools were closed for
over a year, you know, a year and a half
in a lot of places, and parents got the message
at schools just weren't important. And just to clarify, of course,
only public schools were closed. Private schools were open. Parents
got the message public schools cannot be relied on in
(19:46):
these cities, and they left.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah, I think American cities liberal American cities during the
twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, and look, I want
these cities to succeed, sure, but too I looked at
them and was like, you guys are committing suicide. You
are already the cost of living is so high, and
the cost of living is so high for some perks.
(20:09):
And the perks are like activities and theater and music
and good dying food. Yes, all those things, right, And
then what did you do? You took away the perks,
but you left the cost of living. And then you
added some public safety disarray, just like danger everywhere, chaos, vandalism.
And then you tell people when they say it's hard
(20:31):
for me to raise children here, this is just the
cost of doing business.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, right, it's always been like this, Like no, I
really wasn't always like this.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
And that is not an acceptable answer to them. So
what happens is they go, I don't know, this seems hard,
dangerous and expensive. I think I'll move on to somewhere
like Raleigh, where I can get a decent little piece
of land with a decent home on it for a
much lower price and there aren't vagrants on every corner
because it's a different style of governs than it is
(21:01):
in my city, and you're right, Carol. The schools are
a huge part of this. I know, of course, like
people I know in DC, it's basically understood that none
of them are sending their kids to public schools there.
That's just not even a possibility. It's off the table.
So it's this other huge expense on top of living
in an expensive city. And by the way, what do
(21:22):
you get for sending your kids to those schools? Well,
I have a still mad about it, bro for.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Us, still mad about it, bro, let's do it.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Are still mad about the inability of schools to educate children.
And The Atlantic has a piece called a Recipe for
idiocracy What happens when even college students can't do math anymore? Now,
this is the jumping off point. Is this? You see
San Diego study which I appreciate those professors flagging its
saying we need to do something about this, because they
(21:51):
could have kept hiding the ball easily. Yes. The opening
paragraph to this is for the past several years, America
has been using its young people as brats and a sweeping,
if not exactly thought out education experiment. Schools across the
country have been lowering standards and removing penalties for failure,
the results are coming into focus. I just want to
list a couple of the things that she discover rails here,
(22:14):
just found out of that. Now, this reporter, by the way,
I don't want to go like, I don't know what
her personal views were on COVID and closing schools. She's
very young, so like she's just reporting. Fine, let's I'm
not going to hold her feet to the fire over this.
But the elite class in general, one of the courses
tutors noted this is the UCSD, but students faced more
issues with logical thinking than with math facts per se,
(22:37):
meaning they did not even know how to read and
begin solving a word problem. Okay, scary. The decline started
about a decade ago and sharply accelerated during the coronavirus pandemic.
One theory is, of course, that attention shredding influence of
phones and social media is to blame. But that's not all.
Or maybe students have stopped achieving in math because school
(23:00):
have stopped demanding it of them.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Maybe that's it.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
During the George W. Bush administration, federal policy emphasized accountability
for public schools. Schools that saw poor performance on standardized
tests received increased funding at first, but if scores still
didn't improve, they had their funding pulled. Research suggests that
this helped improve math outcomes, particularly for poor black students
after those of us.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Who were there though, that was called racist. Yes, even
though it helped poor black students go ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, After twenty fifteen, federal government backed off from its
accountability measures. There's more. The pandemic supercharged the decline. Districts
that spent most of the twenty twenty one school year
mandating remote learnings saw students fall more than half a
grade behind in math. Districts that reopened earlier saw more
modest declines, and then to cover it up, many districts
(23:50):
adopted things like No Zero's policy, forcing teachers to pass
students who had little command of the material. And then
finally the colleges discontinued, particularly in California, standardized testing so
they couldn't know that these kids weren't learning. So just
to review pandemic closures, expectations, universal expectations, punishments for not
(24:13):
meeting expectations, and standardized tests not acceptable. Yeah, what are
the things we've been saying for for years feeling it's
those things actually I feel like I feel like we
may have said those things. We have said those things.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
The non standardized testing is sort of the colleges bad here.
It's like you allowed students in without a standardized method
by which to judge them. Everything became subjective and you
had to know this was going on. Why did you
get rid of SATs? And I understand the pandemic era explanation, like,
(24:47):
oh not everybody could have taken the SAT in twenty twenty.
I mean it's twenty twenty five, how are things going now?
Everybody could take it like well your chimble mask.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Some of that was the you know, this compassionate response,
like things are hard for everyone, so let's not make
it harder by holding people to expectations. And I actually
want to there's actually research that shows I'm familiar with
this because of my own family going through bereavement and
losing a parent. When you go through something tough, it
actually isn't the answer to drop standards and to get
(25:16):
rid of and to be as kind to yourself as possible,
Particularly for kids going through hard things, keeping standards is
more beneficial to them. Yeah, keeping their schedules is more
beneficial to them, And so I think some of that
was well placed, like, oh my gosh, everything's so stressful
right now, but you're right, five years later, this is
(25:37):
just hiding failure. It's just hiding failure. And eventually you
get to the point where college students cannot do middle
school math or elementary school math.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Yeap, and teachers' unions try to get parents to opt
their kids out of the standardized test way before twenty twenty.
I remember in Parkshall, Brooklyn, where I lived, super left area,
it was just there was pressure to get opt your
kids out because kids shouldn't be taking standardized tests. Oh
my kids are taking standardized tests, so they'll be not
(26:07):
opting out here. But yeah, there was a lot of
pressure from teachers unions on parents, especially on left parents,
to say that we shouldn't be held accountable because our
kids are failing at every level, and teachers should be
held accountable. Of course they should. The better teachers will
get better results. That's how it works. And this misplaced
idea that nobody should fail and all failures should be
(26:30):
hidden leads us to this moment.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And I think what concerned me perhaps most about that
is what I feel like the underlying problem is is
that we are losing societally the skill of thinking, and
you could see it the skill of learning itself. Yeah,
and that is the part where like you can't just say,
like a calculator in AI is going to be able
to do all this for you. You have to learn
(26:54):
to think, and those muscles are atrophying extremely quickly.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Yeah, I think all these things were bad ideas ten
fifteen years ago, and it's a.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah here we are listen to us going forward? Is
really the message here from all three segments, I think, Yeah,
I'm not sure we commented on sex scandals before, but
don't have one.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Hey, you know we could do just look at our
lives and how we've conducted ourselves. I think that you know. Yeah,
although I have said that the trashy, crazy trajectory for
a media career is rewarding in the cash area, were.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Doing it all wrong. Actually, if you want to, if
you want to be want to be upfront about it,
because we are being not maximizing our.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Being not insane and being not trashy must be rewards
unto themselves because they're going to have to be and
we're doing those things.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Thanks for joining us on Normally Normally airs Tuesdays and Thursdays,
and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. Get
in touch with us at normally theepod at gmail dot com.
Thanks for listening, and when things get weird, act Mo
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