Karol sits down with Abigail Shrier, contributing editor at The Free Press and best-selling author, for a candid conversation about the themes driving her most controversial work. They explore how technology is reshaping relationships, why so many young people struggle to form lasting friendships, and the trade-offs between career ambition and community. Shrier offers her perspective on why prioritizing meaningful human connection may be the antidote to a growing culture of isolation. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
Learn more about Abigail Shrier HERE
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, Welcome back to the Carol mark Wood Show on iHeartRadio.
There's an article that seems to be written every few
weeks now, and the latest is titled American women are
giving up on marriage and was in Saturday's Wall Street Journal.
I'm not criticizing the genre. I obviously talk about this
topic maybe more than any other, and I appreciate that
(00:23):
these pieces are sounding the alarm. Just kind of think
they're not quite getting it right. Here's a quote from
the article. I'm financially self sufficient enough to do these
things by myself, said a woman they interviewed, a Boston
based accountant. I'm willing to accept being single versus settling
for someone who isn't the right fit. She sees her
(00:44):
plans for an independent future as making the best of
a lousy situation. I don't want to sit here and
say I'm one hundred percent happy, but I feel happier
just accepting my reality. I'm mentally and emotionally a sense
of peace. She's only twenty nine. She's twenty nine, and
she's given up on finding her person. It's just depressing.
(01:05):
But here's the thing. At twenty nine, I was in
a six year relationship with someone who I did not marry.
I was certain, I mean one thousand percent sure, that
I didn't want to get married and I didn't want
to have kids. I started dating my husband the following
year when I was thirty, and we got married the
year after that. It changes so quickly. Why does a
(01:28):
twenty nine year old feel so despondent about her future?
The problem is the dating culture. If you talk to
anyone in it, well you feel extra grateful to not
be in it. But they use this language that's just
become ridiculous. Like I get what a situationship is, but
giving it a name as opposed to just like someone
(01:50):
you're hooking up with, makes it sound so much more
important than it is. As listeners have heard me say
on this show before, the problem is a decline in marriage, yes,
but it's a decline in all relationships, including friendships. The
top message that I get to this show is from
(02:11):
parents writing in about helping their kid, sometimes a teen,
sometimes a twenty something, have more of a social life.
Something has definitely shifted for the worse. Listen to this
stat from the article the share of women age eighteen
to forty who are single that is neither married nor
cohabitating with a partner was fifty one point four percent
(02:34):
in twenty twenty three, according to an analysis of census
data by the Aspen Economic Strategy Group. That's up from
forty one point eight percent in two thousand. I mean
a ten point jump in twenty years or so. And
that part about cohabitating is important. It's not just marriage
that people aren't participating in. It's not this piece of paper,
(02:54):
it's not the institution. It's everything. It's having relationships in general.
There are a lot of reasons for it, and a
lot of the articles and a lot of the research
focuses on the financial more than anything else. Women are
succeeding at previously unheard of levels. Men aren't, women want
to marry up, etc. But is that what you're hearing
(03:17):
from real people in your life who are trying to
find someone. It's not at all what I'm hearing. I'm
hearing that women can't find a man who will be faithful,
and men say they can't find a woman who isn't
in two material things. Women say men don't ask any
questions about themselves on dates, So a woman will ask
(03:37):
him about his family, about his job, about his hobbies,
and he won't say a word asking her in return,
He'll just answer her questions. Men say that women expect
them to carry conversations and interactions. I get that those
things are diametrically opposed, but I hear both of these perspectives,
and these are all things that I've heard multiple times.
(03:57):
We're missing the forest for the trees. It's not that
women are focused on their jobs. It's that they are
focused on their jobs because they can't find a man.
I'd love to hear from listeners on this, am I
right is the whole She's just a career woman, a
red herring. Let me know what you think. Thanks for listening.
Coming up, my interview with Abigail Schreyer, and Welcome back
(04:23):
to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today
is Abigail Schreyer. Abigail is contributing editor at The Free
Press and the author of two best selling books, Irreversible Damage,
The Transgender Creates, Seducing Our Daughters and Bad Therapy Why
the Kids Aren't Growing Up. Abigail is also one of
my all time favorite people. Hi, Abigail is so nice to.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Have you on. Oh, it's great. To be here, Carol,
great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So I feel like my first question too, has to
be why do you do it? Why do you do this?
Why do you write controversial books that are going to
bring you, you know, nasty hate now when? And here's
the thing. I think you are amazing, brilliant, but you're
also a fantastic writer. Like a lot of people in
(05:08):
our world are smart, but they don't have a beautiful
writing style. You could be writing about anything, but you're
choosing to go into the lines.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And why, Well, thank you. That's very kind of you
to say.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I mean, I write about what interests me, and I
write about things where I don't know the answer to
the question.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
And you know, starting out with you.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Know, irreversible damage. A reader wrote to me to tell
me about this sudden spike and transgender identification among teenage girls,
and no one was at the time willing to write
about it, and I wanted to know if she was right,
and so it sort of took me on an investigative journey.
But it wasn't you know, provocation wasn't the point. It
(05:52):
was really sort of get getting to the answer. And
I like that, I mean, I like getting to the answer.
I always feel that I feel personally much safer in
a world where I feel like I have full information
and I know what's going on and the truth is
more than sort of public opprobrium. Things that worry me
(06:12):
is really not knowing or being fooled, and those things.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Actually do scare me.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So, you know, you sort of have to go with
who you are in life, I think, especially in your profession,
and you know, the job sort of suits me, it
just does.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
It does, but you're so not like you're very mild
mannered and just a calm, rational person. I mean your
books are very common rational too, But I think that
the hate at you is not And I don't know,
I worry about you in that way just because like
it's not like you don't need it, but you don't
need it. You don't need that kind of response, and
(06:54):
yet you're going out there and doing it anyway. I'm
very proud of you, obviously. I think that that's, you know,
the way to be. I don't know necessarily that I
have that.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So so people get angry with me because I'm effective.
That's what makes them so angry. So I think if
I were more provocative or extreme or ungrounded or unfounded,
and things I had to say, I would get a
lot less hate and I would be more ignored. And
the reason that I get attention is because I, you know,
try to craft things in a way that will be
(07:27):
effective and well grounded and therefore hard to ignore. So
you know that that makes some activists angry who are
trying to, you know, keep the facts from getting to light.
I really think that's sort of their problem. And I,
you know, I leave the rest up to the public,
but you know, I'm going to keep doing my job.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What was your path here? How did you get your start?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So that's a great question. So I, you know, always
did journalism high school. I was a stringer for the
Wall Street Washington Jewish Week and you know, through college
and then I was working at the Washington Monthly. And
I got the advice from some of my editors. You know,
journalists are so often diletants. They don't you know, you
(08:12):
have to know about everything, but you never know anything deeply.
You should really try to get a PhD or learn
something deeply. And I thought, well, I wasn't sure I
wanted to do a PhD. I did some graduate life.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
It seems drastic.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, it seemed drastic.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
But one thing they said that did scare me. It
wasn't anything they said, Actually it was something they did.
And that was that my editor, one of my editors,
she was this beautiful, young, very talented editor, and I
think she was about twenty five at the time, and
she was going out to dinner with this sixty five
year old man who was rich, just so he would
buy her dinner. Because the editors were so poor at
(08:48):
the Washington Monthly that they would basically do anything for
a nice meal. And that scared me. That scared me
more than anything she said. So after that I went
to law school. I thought this journalism on my own
dinner actually exactly, I thought journalism could be very bleak
if that's what you have to do to get a meal.
So so I went to law school, but I never
(09:11):
really enjoyed the practice of law. And so when when
my kids were born, I started writing these novels and
they weren't going anywhere, and I thought, I have to
get my novels out before I go back to journalism,
because once people find out, you know, once people say
my journalism will never let me publish another novel, right,
(09:32):
but my novels were not successful.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I never sold one.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
So I decided, you know what, I have so many thoughts,
I'm just going to go back to journalism and from there,
I just started writing for the local press and my
career sort of took off.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Would law have been the plan? B I suppose.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, I like writing about law even now. It's
certainly an advantage in journalism to be able to write
accurately about law.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
It's something that trips up a lot of journalists.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So you know, certainly having that in my toolkit, as
it were, as something I can write about, I have
found very useful. You know, I'm not I'm not scared
by a statute in the way that I very reasonably
some journalists would be, well understandably, I mean, and I also,
you know, you know, because I went to Ye law school,
(10:22):
I have a number of professors I can call up
if I'm not sure about something and get a really,
really smart take. So so you know, I I like
having you know, personally, I'm glad that I went to
law school, but you know, the journalism just just really
suits my personality best.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
You live in California, and I've had a lot of
people on the show who have left California in the
last five years and you're staying, You're you're, you're, you're
waiting it out. How how is it going? How is
how is it out there? Well?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
You know, obviously California is a disaster in so many
ways that it's no secret we're horribly governed all the
way down from the you know, state level, uh through
my local uh here in LA.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean, the governance is a disaster. But I write
about the culture.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And there is really no better way to look at
how the culture has gone drastically off course, how it
has undermined families and children than to be in a
in the state where a lot of that those bad
ideas and bad policies get started. So you know, from
that perspective, it really is a candy store for a journalist,
(11:34):
and uh, for from the perspective of our family, we're
in it. We happen to be in a very nice
community so that you know, the kids are in a
good school, we're happy with so uh, from that perspective,
it's it's we're doing all right.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So California gets to keep you for now.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, absolutely, we'll revisit right, Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
What do you worry about?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Oh, so, there's there's so much to worry. But I
think the thing I worry about the most right now
is why young people are not forming relationships, healthy relationships,
sort of the retreat from the in person world and
also the lack of meaningful romantic relationships that we're seeing
(12:19):
young people less interested in having them.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
They're too young.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
To know that they're giving up on the best things
in life. And also they've been lied to a lot
of them believe that no, I need to get my
professions started first. I can't possibly date someone until I've
pursued my career as a paralegal and it's legal.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Don't go pursuing that career. Go ahead and find your spouse.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Now, right.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I mean, you know, for any job, they will put
off finding a spouse, and it really should be their reverse.
You know, I'm not saying, you know, don't take your
career seriously, but God willing, we have many decades, productive
decades head but you know, the way we're designed, we
have a short time with biology and in which to
(13:06):
have children and to marry, and that's the thing that
we actually should be you know, putting at least as
much energy into if not more, And unfortunately it's really reversed.
Young people are putting all their energy into their careers
and none into finding a spouse.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I do think that's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Do you think phones are related to it, that they're
not living like real lives or they're just on the internet.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Absolutely undeniably. But I also think that that the fearfulness
of the generation. They're so full of worry and look
in our personal relationships are the scariest and most risky
things you'll ever get involved in, and they're also the
most rewarding. But not knowing if someone's going to like
you back, much less love you back, not knowing if
(13:54):
you're going to get your heart broken. These are really
scary things, and we've raised this generation to be the
most fear and so unfortunately they're staying away from the
ultimate rewards of a loving relationship.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I talk about this
a lot on the show, about relationships and about all
kinds of connections between people. Family, friendships, friendships are way down.
It's not just they're not just not making romantic connections.
(14:28):
They're not even making friends anymore. And I get emails
all the time from people saying like, how can I
help my teenager or how can I help my twenty
something make friends. It's become so like people see it
as out of reach to connect with other people, and
it's scary.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Yeah, you had a great column on that. I should
have mentioned that. It was a terrific column. Everyone should
go back and read it if they missed it. On
the decline of friendship. It was something that I wasn't
aware of until I.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Saw your column.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And it's exactly what you just said is exactly right.
I mean, we look back on our lives. Friendships and
romantic relationships. These are you know, in your spouse and
then these are at the top of what gives you
meaning and satisfaction in life. And friendships are amazing things
(15:16):
because you start out, you have these conflicts, right, you know,
you get very close to someone, then you fall out
of touch, or maybe you get shared with them or
whatever happens.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But this is the amazing thing.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Years go by and for whatever reason, it has this
amazing cementing effect of making your friendship so meaningful and
so strong, and it doesn't even matter how mad you
got at her over this or that in the sixth grade.
You look back and all of a sudden, you've known
her for thirty years. And I do very much worry
(15:52):
that kids are missing out on those close friendships.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, I definitely like it's something that I think about
a lot. But you know, I'm on my phone a lot.
I can't. I can't say that I'm not guilty of
the same thing. Every every moment of awkwardness, I immediately
reached my phone just like WHOA, this feels much more comfortable.
I could just scroll and not focus on whatever is
happening here. How do you kind of direct your kids
(16:16):
toward those connections? Right?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So, first of all, let me just acknowledge that it's
near impossible to manage the phones and the computers. It's
so hard, and the schools have made it harder than
any I think any institution. You try to keep these
things away from your kids, and then every teacher assigns
homework through some school some computer programs. So let me
(16:41):
just start by saying, I am, you know, not perfect
by any means. How do I direct my kids to
in person relationships? I do send them to a school
with a no phone policy, which has been really wonderful.
And you know, my sons who are in high school,
they have what's known as kosher phones. You can actually
buy these things are Internet blocked. It's great that doesn't
(17:03):
It's been wonderful for us. They have you know, various
apps like WhatsApp for communicating with teams or you know,
chatting apps. But when it like Gmail, so they can
use their see their schedules and whatnot. But it's not
the open Internet, Okay, so that's somewhat better. But truthfully,
and this goes to another question that I think is
(17:27):
you let me know is on your mind is sort
of what advice would I give?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And that is that let's just.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Go right to it. What advice would you give your
sixteen year old self?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Well, you know, what advice would I give my sixteen
year old self will be a little different, but I'll
tell you what advice I would give in general on
this issue of improving life, improving your life honestly, and
I hate to say it, and people are going to
get really upset that I said this, or maybe tune out,
but honestly, the easiest, quickest, most assured way to do.
This is to join a religious community, join a church,
(17:59):
join us in a God. There is no quicker way
to get actual real community, that is in person, that
is meaningful, that is full of connections. And yes, it
comes with plenty of annoyance too, of course, But but
I actually think that that is the most direct way
to sort of immediately improve your life.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I love it. That's usually the last question. But that's okay,
that's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
We can Sorry, what advice would I give to my
sixteen year old self? You know, I spent a lot
of years. I think this may resonate with with a
lot of women. So I spend a lot of years
thinking my personality was just wrong. So by which I mean,
you hear from a lot of other girls you can't
say that, my god. You know that seems to be
(18:46):
a theme with girl groups of girls, and you spend
a lot of time sort of, especially if you're like
me or you know you, I would imagine you sort
of if you're a straightforward person who just sort of
calls things like you see them, you spend a lot
of time with other girls being told that you're mean,
you're saying all the wrong things, and you don't share
what you said. And if I could go back, what
(19:09):
I would would would do is sort of tell myself,
you know, there's going to be a place for someone
with your personality.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
It's not all bad.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
It may be hard to maintain large groups of friends
of girlfriends because they want you to flatter them, and
the ticket for large groups of girlfriends tends to be
small lies and flattery, neither of which I'm terribly good at.
But it turns out there's you know, there's really a
(19:38):
place for you, no matter your personality. And I'm not
talking about sociopathy or anything like that, right, but personality
and in journalism, you know, I'm I'm not running against
you know, I'm going with the current when it comes
to my personality when I tell the truth, because that's
something that's always been very easy for me. It's it's
(19:59):
covering up the truth or or taking care of everyone's
feelings that's always been harder. So I sort of if
I could go back, I wish I would have known
that actually, what what was so difficult in some situations
that required niceties and flattery and and you know, white
lies would actually be to my advantage in a career
(20:22):
in journalism.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Did you always have primarily male friends or yes, yes,
same same, same. Yeah. Do you know how that is
so not popular now? Like that is when I say
that to my fifteen year old daughter, she's like, that's
you know they call girls like that like the pick
me girl who like tries to cater to boys and
like no, boys were just they were funny and trying
(20:44):
to be funny all the time. And that's what I
was looking for totally.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And I was also I was always close to my
father and my brother Yeah, yeah. And I don't know
if it's because I was close to him or we
were close because we had such similar personalities, But I
always got along with men and boys much better. And
you know, my husband says he always jokes that I'm
the only woman who wants to be told when she
looks fat, because.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I'll say to him, do I get fat in this?
And I want to know before I leave the house.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I don't want to be lied to it you definitely
don't want to be Apparently that's.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
A big no no with most women. They want to
be lied to.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And why would you ask unless you want to know
the honest opinion, what am I doing here?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
If I don't look that I want to change immediately
before I leave the house. So you know, that was
always very hard with me with groups of girlfriends. I
always had a female best friend, but the rest I
just couldn't maintain the group.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I just could never you know, keep the whole group happy.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And and and I didn't know that that those same
sort of personality quirks would would make some areas of
my life much much easier.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Do you feel like your books change the conversation and
enough to make those issues that you've written about better?
Like I think you writing about the trans contagion blew
it all up to such an extent that I think that,
I mean, maybe I just live in Florida now, but
I'm seeing a change, a shift in the way that
(22:11):
this is all going down it I don't see as
many And again, this might just be a New York
to Florida move. Maybe they're still all trendsing in New York,
but it seems like fewer girls are going down that path.
And similarly your book about you know, over therapy for kids,
I feel like the conversation around that has changed and
(22:31):
that there's an improvement. Do you feel any of that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I do think so, and I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I mean, the advantage of writing a book is, here's
what I try to do.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I don't write a book that's just my opinions or
my take.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
There's nothing wrong with that, but that's not what I do.
I try to create a document that people can take
that's full of information and that can really add to
the discourse. So in Bad Therapy, there were legislators who
the book who were argued in court against. You know,
people would argue in court against or in favor of
(23:07):
puberty blocker bands or whatnot, and they would have all
the evidence in my book, they would say, they would
cite it in their briefs.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And I tried to do the same for Bad Therapy.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I wanted parents who went into school boards and were trying,
who sensed in their guts there was something wrong with
social emotional learning to be able to say here, chapter
whatever chapter it was, I think it was chapter nine,
but or chapter six, and they would say, here, it's
all in this book. And that's what I try to do.
I try to be a resource in that way.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
The nice thing.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
About a book is that you know it's always there,
so you know it's you know, an episode will get
more views, but then people rarely go back and listen
to or re watch old episodes. The advantage, of course
of the episodes is you know, unfortunately reading is really declining.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So I think I think sort of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
World and the book world work really well together because
you sort of need both to reach people.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Absolutely, So do you when you when people do cite
your work, do they I mean, do you feel like
you've gotten the credit that you deserve for this? I
feel like maybe not enough.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think Avigail Schreier deserves more.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Guys, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You know, I'm I'm I'm happy. I think that, you know,
I'm not. I think if I were.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
More strategic about my career in certain ways, I would
have stayed on each topic longer and kept promoting it
and promoting it and promoting it. So within the year
after Irreversible Damage was out, I was really onto new
topics and new investigations because just I'm just interested in
what the next thing is, and I'm not I'm not
(24:51):
someone who has I'm not an activist. I don't have
a burning passion about one issue, and so you know,
as a jo I'm always looking at sort of what's
ahead and what.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
The next issue is.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I don't know if that's the best always the best
move for my career. It might be to make sure
that I'm the one person everyone constantly goes to for
this one issue. But for me, I like being able
to move on to the next topic and reveal something
else if I can.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I love it. She is Abigail Schreier. Get her books,
read her anywhere you can. You're so fantastic. Thank you
so much for coming on. I've loved this conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Thank you, Carol, You're the best.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco
Which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, Welcome back to the Carol mark Wood Show on iHeartRadio.
There's an article that seems to be written every few
weeks now, and the latest is titled American women are
giving up on marriage and was in Saturday's Wall Street Journal.
I'm not criticizing the genre. I obviously talk about this
topic maybe more than any other, and I appreciate that
(00:23):
these pieces are sounding the alarm. Just kind of think
they're not quite getting it right. Here's a quote from
the article. I'm financially self sufficient enough to do these
things by myself, said a woman they interviewed, a Boston
based accountant. I'm willing to accept being single versus settling
for someone who isn't the right fit. She sees her
(00:44):
plans for an independent future as making the best of
a lousy situation. I don't want to sit here and
say I'm one hundred percent happy, but I feel happier
just accepting my reality. I'm mentally and emotionally a sense
of peace. She's only twenty nine. She's twenty nine, and
she's given up on finding her person. It's just depressing.
(01:05):
But here's the thing. At twenty nine, I was in
a six year relationship with someone who I did not marry.
I was certain, I mean one thousand percent sure, that
I didn't want to get married and I didn't want
to have kids. I started dating my husband the following
year when I was thirty, and we got married the
year after that. It changes so quickly. Why does a
(01:28):
twenty nine year old feel so despondent about her future?
The problem is the dating culture. If you talk to
anyone in it, well you feel extra grateful to not
be in it. But they use this language that's just
become ridiculous. Like I get what a situationship is, but
giving it a name as opposed to just like someone
(01:50):
you're hooking up with, makes it sound so much more
important than it is. As listeners have heard me say
on this show before, the problem is a decline in marriage, yes,
but it's a decline in all relationships, including friendships. The
top message that I get to this show is from
(02:11):
parents writing in about helping their kid, sometimes a teen,
sometimes a twenty something, have more of a social life.
Something has definitely shifted for the worse. Listen to this
stat from the article the share of women age eighteen
to forty who are single that is neither married nor
cohabitating with a partner was fifty one point four percent
(02:34):
in twenty twenty three, according to an analysis of census
data by the Aspen Economic Strategy Group. That's up from
forty one point eight percent in two thousand. I mean
a ten point jump in twenty years or so. And
that part about cohabitating is important. It's not just marriage
that people aren't participating in. It's not this piece of paper,
(02:54):
it's not the institution. It's everything. It's having relationships in general.
There are a lot of reasons for it, and a
lot of the articles and a lot of the research
focuses on the financial more than anything else. Women are
succeeding at previously unheard of levels. Men aren't, women want
to marry up, etc. But is that what you're hearing
(03:17):
from real people in your life who are trying to
find someone. It's not at all what I'm hearing. I'm
hearing that women can't find a man who will be faithful,
and men say they can't find a woman who isn't
in two material things. Women say men don't ask any
questions about themselves on dates, So a woman will ask
(03:37):
him about his family, about his job, about his hobbies,
and he won't say a word asking her in return,
He'll just answer her questions. Men say that women expect
them to carry conversations and interactions. I get that those
things are diametrically opposed, but I hear both of these perspectives,
and these are all things that I've heard multiple times.
(03:57):
We're missing the forest for the trees. It's not that
women are focused on their jobs. It's that they are
focused on their jobs because they can't find a man.
I'd love to hear from listeners on this, am I
right is the whole She's just a career woman, a
red herring. Let me know what you think. Thanks for listening.
Coming up, my interview with Abigail Schreyer, and Welcome back
(04:23):
to the Carol Marcowitz Show on iHeartRadio. My guest today
is Abigail Schreyer. Abigail is contributing editor at The Free
Press and the author of two best selling books, Irreversible Damage,
The Transgender Creates, Seducing Our Daughters and Bad Therapy Why
the Kids Aren't Growing Up. Abigail is also one of
my all time favorite people. Hi, Abigail is so nice to.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Have you on. Oh, it's great. To be here, Carol,
great to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
So I feel like my first question too, has to
be why do you do it? Why do you do this?
Why do you write controversial books that are going to
bring you, you know, nasty hate now when? And here's
the thing. I think you are amazing, brilliant, but you're
also a fantastic writer. Like a lot of people in
(05:08):
our world are smart, but they don't have a beautiful
writing style. You could be writing about anything, but you're
choosing to go into the lines.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And why, Well, thank you. That's very kind of you
to say.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
I mean, I write about what interests me, and I
write about things where I don't know the answer to
the question.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
And you know, starting out with you.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Know, irreversible damage. A reader wrote to me to tell
me about this sudden spike and transgender identification among teenage girls,
and no one was at the time willing to write
about it, and I wanted to know if she was right,
and so it sort of took me on an investigative journey.
But it wasn't you know, provocation wasn't the point. It
(05:52):
was really sort of get getting to the answer. And
I like that, I mean, I like getting to the answer.
I always feel that I feel personally much safer in
a world where I feel like I have full information
and I know what's going on and the truth is
more than sort of public opprobrium. Things that worry me
(06:12):
is really not knowing or being fooled, and those things.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Actually do scare me.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So, you know, you sort of have to go with
who you are in life, I think, especially in your profession,
and you know, the job sort of suits me, it
just does.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
It does, but you're so not like you're very mild
mannered and just a calm, rational person. I mean your
books are very common rational too, But I think that
the hate at you is not And I don't know,
I worry about you in that way just because like
it's not like you don't need it, but you don't
need it. You don't need that kind of response, and
(06:54):
yet you're going out there and doing it anyway. I'm
very proud of you, obviously. I think that that's, you know,
the way to be. I don't know necessarily that I
have that.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
So so people get angry with me because I'm effective.
That's what makes them so angry. So I think if
I were more provocative or extreme or ungrounded or unfounded,
and things I had to say, I would get a
lot less hate and I would be more ignored. And
the reason that I get attention is because I, you know,
try to craft things in a way that will be
(07:27):
effective and well grounded and therefore hard to ignore. So
you know that that makes some activists angry who are
trying to, you know, keep the facts from getting to light.
I really think that's sort of their problem. And I,
you know, I leave the rest up to the public,
but you know, I'm going to keep doing my job.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
What was your path here? How did you get your start?
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So that's a great question. So I, you know, always
did journalism high school. I was a stringer for the
Wall Street Washington Jewish Week and you know, through college
and then I was working at the Washington Monthly. And
I got the advice from some of my editors. You know,
journalists are so often diletants. They don't you know, you
(08:12):
have to know about everything, but you never know anything deeply.
You should really try to get a PhD or learn
something deeply. And I thought, well, I wasn't sure I
wanted to do a PhD. I did some graduate life.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
It seems drastic.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, it seemed drastic.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
But one thing they said that did scare me. It
wasn't anything they said, Actually it was something they did.
And that was that my editor, one of my editors,
she was this beautiful, young, very talented editor, and I
think she was about twenty five at the time, and
she was going out to dinner with this sixty five
year old man who was rich, just so he would
buy her dinner. Because the editors were so poor at
(08:48):
the Washington Monthly that they would basically do anything for
a nice meal. And that scared me. That scared me
more than anything she said. So after that I went
to law school. I thought this journalism on my own
dinner actually exactly, I thought journalism could be very bleak
if that's what you have to do to get a meal.
So so I went to law school, but I never
(09:11):
really enjoyed the practice of law. And so when when
my kids were born, I started writing these novels and
they weren't going anywhere, and I thought, I have to
get my novels out before I go back to journalism,
because once people find out, you know, once people say
my journalism will never let me publish another novel, right,
(09:32):
but my novels were not successful.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I never sold one.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
So I decided, you know what, I have so many thoughts,
I'm just going to go back to journalism and from there,
I just started writing for the local press and my
career sort of took off.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Would law have been the plan? B I suppose.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
I mean, I like writing about law even now. It's
certainly an advantage in journalism to be able to write
accurately about law.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
It's something that trips up a lot of journalists.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
So you know, certainly having that in my toolkit, as
it were, as something I can write about, I have
found very useful. You know, I'm not I'm not scared
by a statute in the way that I very reasonably
some journalists would be, well understandably, I mean, and I also,
you know, you know, because I went to Ye law school,
(10:22):
I have a number of professors I can call up
if I'm not sure about something and get a really,
really smart take. So so you know, I I like
having you know, personally, I'm glad that I went to
law school, but you know, the journalism just just really
suits my personality best.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
You live in California, and I've had a lot of
people on the show who have left California in the
last five years and you're staying, You're you're, you're, you're
waiting it out. How how is it going? How is
how is it out there? Well?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
You know, obviously California is a disaster in so many
ways that it's no secret we're horribly governed all the
way down from the you know, state level, uh through
my local uh here in LA.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I mean, the governance is a disaster. But I write
about the culture.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And there is really no better way to look at
how the culture has gone drastically off course, how it
has undermined families and children than to be in a
in the state where a lot of that those bad
ideas and bad policies get started. So you know, from
that perspective, it really is a candy store for a journalist,
(11:34):
and uh, for from the perspective of our family, we're
in it. We happen to be in a very nice
community so that you know, the kids are in a
good school, we're happy with so uh, from that perspective,
it's it's we're doing all right.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
So California gets to keep you for now.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, absolutely, we'll revisit right, Okay, sounds good.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
What do you worry about?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Oh, so, there's there's so much to worry. But I
think the thing I worry about the most right now
is why young people are not forming relationships, healthy relationships,
sort of the retreat from the in person world and
also the lack of meaningful romantic relationships that we're seeing
(12:19):
young people less interested in having them.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
They're too young.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
To know that they're giving up on the best things
in life. And also they've been lied to a lot
of them believe that no, I need to get my
professions started first. I can't possibly date someone until I've
pursued my career as a paralegal and it's legal.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Don't go pursuing that career. Go ahead and find your spouse.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Now, right.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I mean, you know, for any job, they will put
off finding a spouse, and it really should be their reverse.
You know, I'm not saying, you know, don't take your
career seriously, but God willing, we have many decades, productive
decades head but you know, the way we're designed, we
have a short time with biology and in which to
(13:06):
have children and to marry, and that's the thing that
we actually should be you know, putting at least as
much energy into if not more, And unfortunately it's really reversed.
Young people are putting all their energy into their careers
and none into finding a spouse.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
And I do think that's a real problem.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Do you think phones are related to it, that they're
not living like real lives or they're just on the internet.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
Absolutely undeniably. But I also think that that the fearfulness
of the generation. They're so full of worry and look
in our personal relationships are the scariest and most risky
things you'll ever get involved in, and they're also the
most rewarding. But not knowing if someone's going to like
you back, much less love you back, not knowing if
(13:54):
you're going to get your heart broken. These are really
scary things, and we've raised this generation to be the
most fear and so unfortunately they're staying away from the
ultimate rewards of a loving relationship.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. I talk about this
a lot on the show, about relationships and about all
kinds of connections between people. Family, friendships, friendships are way down.
It's not just they're not just not making romantic connections.
(14:28):
They're not even making friends anymore. And I get emails
all the time from people saying like, how can I
help my teenager or how can I help my twenty
something make friends. It's become so like people see it
as out of reach to connect with other people, and
it's scary.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Yeah, you had a great column on that. I should
have mentioned that. It was a terrific column. Everyone should
go back and read it if they missed it. On
the decline of friendship. It was something that I wasn't
aware of until I.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Saw your column.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
And it's exactly what you just said is exactly right.
I mean, we look back on our lives. Friendships and
romantic relationships. These are you know, in your spouse and
then these are at the top of what gives you
meaning and satisfaction in life. And friendships are amazing things
(15:16):
because you start out, you have these conflicts, right, you know,
you get very close to someone, then you fall out
of touch, or maybe you get shared with them or
whatever happens.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But this is the amazing thing.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Years go by and for whatever reason, it has this
amazing cementing effect of making your friendship so meaningful and
so strong, and it doesn't even matter how mad you
got at her over this or that in the sixth grade.
You look back and all of a sudden, you've known
her for thirty years. And I do very much worry
(15:52):
that kids are missing out on those close friendships.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Yeah, I definitely like it's something that I think about
a lot. But you know, I'm on my phone a lot.
I can't. I can't say that I'm not guilty of
the same thing. Every every moment of awkwardness, I immediately
reached my phone just like WHOA, this feels much more comfortable.
I could just scroll and not focus on whatever is
happening here. How do you kind of direct your kids
(16:16):
toward those connections? Right?
Speaker 3 (16:20):
So, first of all, let me just acknowledge that it's
near impossible to manage the phones and the computers. It's
so hard, and the schools have made it harder than
any I think any institution. You try to keep these
things away from your kids, and then every teacher assigns
homework through some school some computer programs. So let me
(16:41):
just start by saying, I am, you know, not perfect
by any means. How do I direct my kids to
in person relationships? I do send them to a school
with a no phone policy, which has been really wonderful.
And you know, my sons who are in high school,
they have what's known as kosher phones. You can actually
buy these things are Internet blocked. It's great that doesn't
(17:03):
It's been wonderful for us. They have you know, various
apps like WhatsApp for communicating with teams or you know,
chatting apps. But when it like Gmail, so they can
use their see their schedules and whatnot. But it's not
the open Internet, Okay, so that's somewhat better. But truthfully,
and this goes to another question that I think is
(17:27):
you let me know is on your mind is sort
of what advice would I give?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And that is that let's just.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Go right to it. What advice would you give your
sixteen year old self?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Well, you know, what advice would I give my sixteen
year old self will be a little different, but I'll
tell you what advice I would give in general on
this issue of improving life, improving your life honestly, and
I hate to say it, and people are going to
get really upset that I said this, or maybe tune out,
but honestly, the easiest, quickest, most assured way to do.
This is to join a religious community, join a church,
(17:59):
join us in a God. There is no quicker way
to get actual real community, that is in person, that
is meaningful, that is full of connections. And yes, it
comes with plenty of annoyance too, of course, But but
I actually think that that is the most direct way
to sort of immediately improve your life.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
I love it. That's usually the last question. But that's okay,
that's okay.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
We can Sorry, what advice would I give to my
sixteen year old self? You know, I spent a lot
of years. I think this may resonate with with a
lot of women. So I spend a lot of years
thinking my personality was just wrong. So by which I mean,
you hear from a lot of other girls you can't
say that, my god. You know that seems to be
(18:46):
a theme with girl groups of girls, and you spend
a lot of time sort of, especially if you're like
me or you know you, I would imagine you sort
of if you're a straightforward person who just sort of
calls things like you see them, you spend a lot
of time with other girls being told that you're mean,
you're saying all the wrong things, and you don't share
what you said. And if I could go back, what
(19:09):
I would would would do is sort of tell myself,
you know, there's going to be a place for someone
with your personality.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
It's not all bad.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
It may be hard to maintain large groups of friends
of girlfriends because they want you to flatter them, and
the ticket for large groups of girlfriends tends to be
small lies and flattery, neither of which I'm terribly good at.
But it turns out there's you know, there's really a
(19:38):
place for you, no matter your personality. And I'm not
talking about sociopathy or anything like that, right, but personality
and in journalism, you know, I'm I'm not running against
you know, I'm going with the current when it comes
to my personality when I tell the truth, because that's
something that's always been very easy for me. It's it's
(19:59):
covering up the truth or or taking care of everyone's
feelings that's always been harder. So I sort of if
I could go back, I wish I would have known
that actually, what what was so difficult in some situations
that required niceties and flattery and and you know, white
lies would actually be to my advantage in a career
(20:22):
in journalism.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Did you always have primarily male friends or yes, yes,
same same, same. Yeah. Do you know how that is
so not popular now? Like that is when I say
that to my fifteen year old daughter, she's like, that's
you know they call girls like that like the pick
me girl who like tries to cater to boys and
like no, boys were just they were funny and trying
(20:44):
to be funny all the time. And that's what I
was looking for totally.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
And I was also I was always close to my
father and my brother Yeah, yeah. And I don't know
if it's because I was close to him or we
were close because we had such similar personalities, But I
always got along with men and boys much better. And
you know, my husband says he always jokes that I'm
the only woman who wants to be told when she
looks fat, because.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
I'll say to him, do I get fat in this?
And I want to know before I leave the house.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I don't want to be lied to it you definitely
don't want to be Apparently that's.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
A big no no with most women. They want to
be lied to.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
And why would you ask unless you want to know
the honest opinion, what am I doing here?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Exactly?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
If I don't look that I want to change immediately
before I leave the house. So you know, that was
always very hard with me with groups of girlfriends. I
always had a female best friend, but the rest I
just couldn't maintain the group.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I just could never you know, keep the whole group happy.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
And and and I didn't know that that those same
sort of personality quirks would would make some areas of
my life much much easier.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Do you feel like your books change the conversation and
enough to make those issues that you've written about better?
Like I think you writing about the trans contagion blew
it all up to such an extent that I think that,
I mean, maybe I just live in Florida now, but
I'm seeing a change, a shift in the way that
(22:11):
this is all going down it I don't see as
many And again, this might just be a New York
to Florida move. Maybe they're still all trendsing in New York,
but it seems like fewer girls are going down that path.
And similarly your book about you know, over therapy for kids,
I feel like the conversation around that has changed and
(22:31):
that there's an improvement. Do you feel any of that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I do think so, and I'm very happy about that.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
I mean, the advantage of writing a book is, here's
what I try to do.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I don't write a book that's just my opinions or
my take.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
There's nothing wrong with that, but that's not what I do.
I try to create a document that people can take
that's full of information and that can really add to
the discourse. So in Bad Therapy, there were legislators who
the book who were argued in court against. You know,
people would argue in court against or in favor of
(23:07):
puberty blocker bands or whatnot, and they would have all
the evidence in my book, they would say, they would
cite it in their briefs.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
And I tried to do the same for Bad Therapy.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
I wanted parents who went into school boards and were trying,
who sensed in their guts there was something wrong with
social emotional learning to be able to say here, chapter
whatever chapter it was, I think it was chapter nine,
but or chapter six, and they would say, here, it's
all in this book. And that's what I try to do.
I try to be a resource in that way.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
The nice thing.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
About a book is that you know it's always there,
so you know it's you know, an episode will get
more views, but then people rarely go back and listen
to or re watch old episodes. The advantage, of course
of the episodes is you know, unfortunately reading is really declining.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
So I think I think sort of the podcast.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
World and the book world work really well together because
you sort of need both to reach people.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Absolutely, So do you when you when people do cite
your work, do they I mean, do you feel like
you've gotten the credit that you deserve for this? I
feel like maybe not enough.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
That's fair.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
I think Avigail Schreier deserves more.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Guys, thank you.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
You know, I'm I'm I'm happy. I think that, you know,
I'm not. I think if I were.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
More strategic about my career in certain ways, I would
have stayed on each topic longer and kept promoting it
and promoting it and promoting it. So within the year
after Irreversible Damage was out, I was really onto new
topics and new investigations because just I'm just interested in
what the next thing is, and I'm not I'm not
(24:51):
someone who has I'm not an activist. I don't have
a burning passion about one issue, and so you know,
as a jo I'm always looking at sort of what's
ahead and what.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
The next issue is.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
I don't know if that's the best always the best
move for my career. It might be to make sure
that I'm the one person everyone constantly goes to for
this one issue. But for me, I like being able
to move on to the next topic and reveal something
else if I can.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I love it. She is Abigail Schreier. Get her books,
read her anywhere you can. You're so fantastic. Thank you
so much for coming on. I've loved this conversation.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Thank you, Carol, You're the best.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marco
Which show. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
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