September 3, 2025 • 25 mins
On this episode, Karol welcomes back the one and only Clay Travis, founder of OutKick and co-host of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. They discuss Clay’s journey from law to conservative media, his commitment to personal growth, and concerns about the decline of traditional values—especially regarding young men, relationships, and family formation. Clay previews his upcoming book, "Balls," which explores the cultural importance of sports and the challenges facing young men today. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
Purchase Clay's NEW Book HERE
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markoviz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is the founder of OutKick, the co
host of the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton radio show,
and the founder of the podcast network, which platforms the
Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome Clay Travis.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
I apologize the lights are off in my studio, so
if I look like I'm in a cave, just pretend
I'm Batman.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I feel like it's a perfect vibe.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Actually, So, you have a lot of podcasts on the
Clay and Buck podcast network.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I have two of those podcasts, and one of.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The things I do on the show, and I don't
expect you to know it, is I ask all of
my guests a set of three questions, and I switch
up my questions at my yearly anniversary mark two year
anniversaries coming up in October.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The first time you came on this show, you actually.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Caused a little bit of a sensation with the answers
to one of your questions. You are my second ever
guest ever, and the three questions I asked my first season.
One of the questions was do you think that you've
made it and you said no. And I had multiple
people write into me. I had listener named Anna Rode in,
(01:14):
how the heck does Clay Travis not think he's made it?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
His life seems set.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Another listener actually also named Clay, wrote in and said,
if Clay Travis hasn't made it, how can any of
us say that we have to be fair?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
You said in some ways yes, but in other ways no.
Do you stand by that answer?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yeah, because I think when you say I've made it,
it suggests that you're at a final destination. And I
don't think I'm at a final destination. To me, you
either are building or you're maintaining. And I like to build.
I like to try to create new things. I like
to try to go to places that I haven't been before.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And so to me, when you say, oh.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I've made it, it's as if you're trying to maintain
where you already are. And I think there's more opportunities
out there, and I think there's things that I can
be better at, and so I guess that's kind of
indicative of my idea or ideal growth mindset.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, I don't expect that I know everything.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I hope that every day I learn a little bit
better and get a little bit better at everything. And
so I think when you start thinking you've made it,
you kind of rest on your laurels. I'm always working,
I'm always trying to find something new, make sure I'm
not missing something, and so I still, yeah, I don't
think I've made it interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So it's funny because I couldn't find some of the
other emails that you know, people DM me, people message
me on Instagram. I don't know, but one of them
specifically referenced he has a hot wife, like and it
was like, you know, considered that as like.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Part of the package. And so it's not just about career.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Like I think people look at you know, Touchwood your
life and they think, like, you know, Clay Travis has
it pretty good.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Look, I mean I do feel very fortunate. I think
it's important to start off each day to the extent
that people need life advice for me, which I don't
know if it's a great thing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is a show about life advice, So I think, yeah, look.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
You can be grateful for what you have and also
aspire to more. And so I have a great deal
of gratitude. I've got three happy, healthy kids that seem
to be doing pretty well, thriving even I've got a
wife who tolerates me that I've been married to for
twenty one years, and I like to think that we're happy,
(03:44):
maybe happier now than we have been in you know,
early days of marriage. And I think certainly there were
way more challenges in my life in terms of financially
in terms of being able to know you're going to
pay your mortgage when I was younger. But I would
like to think I'm forty six now. I would like
(04:04):
to think that when you, if we had this conversation
when I was fifty six, that I wouldn't just be
in the same place now that I was when I
was forty six. And there are.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Positives and negatives that come with that.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
You probably could say, hey, dial back, do less, But
in my mind, I'm always trying to do more, trying
to grow what I'm doing. So I really don't think
that I quote unquote made it.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I guess if you use as.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
The standard, hey are you financially secure? Are you happy?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
But I don't think that I'm finished or that if
you talk again, if we talked in ten years, I
would happy. Yeah, I don't think I'd be happy if
I were doing only the exact same things that I've
done now.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There's still lots of things I'd like to achieve.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
So you went to law school, you were going to
be a lawyer. You were a lawyer actually for a
little while. What made you switch to media?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It moves too slow, And I think that was the
reason for me that practicing law wasn't that satisfying, because you.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Could look at an issue and say.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Okay, this is what we have to figure out, this
is what we have to decide, and along the way
it just took forever, and so much of being a
litigator is just a procedural battle, and it wasn't particularly fun,
and I didn't think it was intellectually stimulating in a
way that actually led to problems getting solved. It was
(05:33):
almost like the job is to be the problem. The
job is to be the roadblock and just make it
drag on as long as possible. And I wanted to
get things solved and move on.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Did you have a plan?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
See if it wasn't being a lawyer and it wasn't being.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
In media, I thought, and I still think, this is
probably an ideal world and there's probably in the Marvel multiverse.
You have kids, you probably are familiar with the Marvel multiverse.
There probably is a world where I was a creative
writing teacher at a college. I really love studying writing,
(06:10):
teaching creative writing. I got an MFA in creative writing
in addition to the JD. I taught at Vanderbilt University.
While I was doing that, and when I was in college,
the courses that I loved the most were the creative
writing classes.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I liked being in a small.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Group, sitting around everybody reading stories, analyzing them, giving feedback.
I love that reading other great writers. So I think
there's a world where I'm not in the public arena
really in any way. I just kind of sit back
and work on trying to do books. And I still
(06:45):
think of myself more as a writer than a radio
or TV guy, even though I don't spend as much
time writing as much as I used to. And so
there's that That would probably have been my plan. See,
you know, go to a college and just in the
rest of my life kind of teaching undergrads.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know, how to handle creative writing courses. I love that.
I love teaching, and I like.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Being in a you could definitely still do that as
a you know, third act.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I don't know, there's very many universities are that excited
to hire Clay Travis as a professor.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Things are changing, Clay anything is.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's a good point. Maybe Hillsdale would hire me.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, definitely. So what do you worry about in life?
In life, in your day to day.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I worry about my boys.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I mean, you know, probably ninety five percent of my
concerns to the extent that I have them if I
have nightmares and involves something happening to one of my boys.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And so you know, they're.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Seventeen, fourteen, and ten, so they're moving towards adulthood, but
they're still very young men.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I was a teenage boy.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I just know all the stupid things that boys get into,
the nervousness of having them behind the wheel driving a car,
what they or their friends might get into. That, by
far is my number one concern personally. Now, if you
want to talk like large universe, it's that I really think,
(08:13):
and part of me wants to write a whole book
on this. I think that men and women are just
not connecting, and I'm worried about where we go as
a society when we're telling men to be effeminate versions
of themselves and women to be masculine versions of themselves,
and are we bringing men and women together? So I
(08:35):
tell my boys and they always roll their eyes like that.
It's like, you know, get married and have as many
kids as you can. Because there are lots of great
societies Italy, South Korea, Japan, even China, which is obviously
historically a great society, They're not having kids and the
population of the world, I'm concerned could start to collapse.
(08:57):
And I think about it in two ways, like this
is in my new book that is coming out in November.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
But Carol, you probably see this. Some of the most successful.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Women in the world are now going and picking sperm
from men that they never meet to have babies without
having husbands. Right, they're just flipping through it like it's
the NFL draft and they're like, this guy's six y two,
he got a fifteen hundred SAT.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You know, he went to Harvard or Yale or wherever
it is.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Oh, I want he's got great blue eyes, good hair,
Like I want to have a designer baby with him.
And they have no actual interaction. Flips me tons of
really pretty girls just go on only fans and thousands
of men convince themselves that they have a relationship with
the mn that are basically just hiring bots or hiring
(09:44):
men to pretend to be them to make them think
that they have a relationship with a pretty girl. Like
what is going on there? Both the only fans perspective,
where men are seeking out women that they don't actually
know to have relationships with, and then women are choosing
sperm donors because they can't find an actual man that
(10:04):
they want to marry and have a family with. I'm
concerned about what that dynamic is. And here's my big
picture concerned. I don't know what you think about this.
If you went back to nineteen sixty five and you
told a rich, desirable male, hey, what is the ideal
world for you when you're twenty five years old, he
basically would design the world that we.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Have right now, where you have to have almost no effort.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
You can go look at pictures of girls in bikinis,
all of all ages, and just go send them a
message and see if they respond, and if they don't,
you're onto the next one.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
We have made human interaction very.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Disposable and in some ways, I think female empowerment has
actually led to a world in which men's fantasies are
fulfilled and we get no commitment and everybody is less happy.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So those are the things big pictures.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
That I think about that are different than maybe you
or mine's generation when people still went out to a
bar and actually had to have a face conversation.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
The real life thing, I mean, we talk about it
a lot on this show, you know, with the collapse
of romantic relationships, where you, like you said, women are
going and having babies on their own and men are
having relationships with OnlyFans. Maybe maybe they're just having relationships
with the AI at this.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Point, Yeah, now's not even a real.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Person, right.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So but the thing is, to me, it all starts
from people aren't even having friendships anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I talk about this a lot, the collapse of friendships.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Where yeah, fifty years ago you had like nine friends
and now people have like two. And it's scary because
you don't see that improving. You see this AI thing, people, Oh,
you can have a relationship with AI and it's accepted.
It's in the New York Times as a headline as
if that's normal or real or something to promote.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I agree completely, and I think it's only going to
get worse because AI is gonna get way more reliable.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I don't know if you've seen this, there are.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Tons of now I think fake AI women with only
fans pages like these are not even really I understand
airbrushed women, all those things is not real in some ways,
but it's a real person. And now it's a completely
made up girl. And the whole dynamic of this is
very strange too, because I also think, you know, like
(12:28):
back in the day when my age we would try
to like get a Playboy magazine, most guys would never
meet a Playboy centerfold in their whole life. So there
was and let's say it's not a centerfold, it's Jenny McCarthy,
or it's you know, Pamela Anderson. Right, it's a pretty
girl that's on television, but you know, like you're never
gonna really interact with her. It seems to me that
(12:50):
we have gone from the super high level celebrities, you know,
the Denise Richards of the world's the Carmen Electras, like
we can run through that whole list of like nineties
calendar or pinups and now whatever. The pretty girl is
of a sorority, she's super famous in that tiny little pond,
and I think it makes things feel less like I
(13:13):
don't think women were threatened by Centerfolds back in the day.
It feels like there's more antagonism now. And if you're
a young girl, what is it thirty percent of teenage
girls have thought about killing themselves. They can see in
a way that you and I couldn't when we were
in school. Oh, that person is super rich and they've
got this great vacation and they got better clothes. And
(13:34):
I think it just leads Comparison is the thief of
joy in life. And I think Jordan Peterson has a
great line which I think is very helpful, where he says,
don't compare yourself to other people. Compare yourself today to
where you were yesterday, and think about getting better yourself.
And I think there's so much comparison out there that
most of us are not going to be drop dead gorgeous.
(13:56):
Most of us are not going to get sixteen hundreds
on our SAT. That doesn't mean you can't spot to
be better at something, but when you're only comparing your
worst to someone else's best. I think it leads to
a profound sadness, which I think has gripped much of
the country at many parts.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Of the day and night.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
And this is why Clay Favis doesn't think he's made it,
because he's comparing himself to himself only right.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Well, I mean, look, you can't compare yourself to like
I'm never gonna have Michael Jordan's jumping ability, I which
I was like, it would be super awesome. Right, You
can aspire to be the best version of yourself and
that is oftentimes way better than what you are today,
as opposed to trying to aspire to be the best
version of someone else. This is the way that anyway,
(14:43):
I kind of think through it.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What's the new book about?
Give us a preview.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So it's called Balls, And in fact, this is what
the cover looks like, very understating. Yeah, and so the
concept is sports fans, young men and Trump how they
won the twenty twenty four election. But really what it
dives into is how are we losing young men and
(15:15):
how do we get them to be productive members of
society when they're only getting forty percent of college degrees,
When the average young man is frankly falling far behind
the average young woman, what can we do? And why
are men feeling like they are being left behind by
(15:37):
so much of society? So this is it looks at
the election, but the prism is using athletics, which to
me is a great example of this. I make the
argument in the book that the last real source of
authority that everybody trusts in America is the scoreboard. Everybody
trusts that the score is right. If somebody steps on
(15:59):
the line for a three doesn't get two feet in
for a touchdown. In the NFL, we all go look
at the camera and everybody kind of makes their own decision,
and most of the time we end up agreeing. We
don't have a lot of those commonalities anymore. In the book,
I argue about why sports is important. I bet your
husband would sign off on this. Sports is the only
thing I can think of where when two people argue,
(16:21):
they end up liking each other more.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, absolutely do not agree.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
But you're like, hey, I speak a common language with
this guy, and I think that we need more and
more of those places in society. You don't get into, Hey,
what should the tax code be? How do we handle Ukraine?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, it's like, hey, who's the best quarterback in
the NFL? Let's argue.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I might not agree with you, but at the end
of the conversation, I'm probably gonna like you more. And
that's the great thing about sports.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Is there a chapter on how the Tennessee Titans suck?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
No, there is a reference.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
There is a reference in there to the fact that
my team's basically exist to make me sad and keep
me humble. So, yes, it is unfortunate that that I
am afflicted with the sad status of being a Tennessee
Titan fan.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
That's right, you're afflicted.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, it is a curse.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
What advice would you give your sixteen year old self
having to do it all over again?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Don't change anything because I like where I am, so
I was actually having this conversation the other night. Maybe
I could have ended up in a better place than
I am. But I think if you go back and
worry about trying to remake things, you missed the lessons
that you learned along the way, and you aren't the
person that you are today. I'm imperfect, I'm flawing and
(17:44):
all sorts of things that I got wrong, but I
like to think that I have learned from them and
it's helped to get me to where I am today.
I think if you had told me how long it
would take to make a living in what I do,
I think it would have been really discouraging. And so
I think it's important to really be tough and find
(18:06):
something that you enjoy pursuing and just try to get
better at it. And I think a lot of people
in this era now they see, oh, that person's got
a million TikTok followers.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Why don't I have a million TikTok followers?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
And I think the answer is, well, you can't compare
yourself to other people. Are you getting better at whatever
you like to do? And I like to think that
I've gotten a little bit better at media every day,
and I still have a ceiling that I could aspire
to reach in what we do.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So I think it's just be tough.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I think if I could go back to sixteen year
old me, I don't think I was tough enough. But
I think if you tell yourself, oh, be tougher, you
actually have to take those punches. You can't really make
somebody tougher. You have to go through it, and you
have to get scars, and sometimes those scars that's painful, right,
break bones. It's tough, but I think you have to
(19:04):
do it. And I think that's why you know, ultimately
you have to let kids fail too, because failure isn't
a sign of ultimate failure. It means that you're trying
to do something hard, and doing hard things is something
to aspire too, I believe.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Is that the same advice you give your boys.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Yeah, I tell him, I try not to look at result.
I try to look at effort, because effort translates across
all medium and sometimes you're really talented at something, you know.
My oldest son is is really really academically gifted, but
he's in debate, and debate is tough and you have
(19:43):
to work really hard and a lot of times you
lose and the judges might be frustrating, and so I
was very proud of how hard he works. My middle
son loves football. He has played seventh and eighth grade football.
They barely throw the football and he plays wide receiver
and he is running the route. Every route like it's
fourth down in the Super Bowl, even though they're unlikely
(20:06):
to throw to him.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That all you can control in life is your effort.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
You can't control anybody else, You can't control any other
aspect of life. All you individually control is how hard
you work at something. And so finding something and being
willing to work hard. And I tell my boys all
the time, don't let money be that guide. Hey, if
you love coaching football and you just want to be
(20:31):
a high school football coach, be the best high school
football coach on the planet.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
You know you're never going to make a lot of
money necessarily, But.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Success and pursuit of excellence is a reward in many ways.
And so I try to tell my kids, hey, don't
think about the financial side of things as much as
am I willing to work really hard at this, and
if you are, I think a lot of times the
financial side of things and the satisfaction that comes from
it fall that I hope.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
So you know, I don't necessarily give that advice. I
actually tell my kids very often that they're very expensive
and that they should try to do something that they'll
be able to pay for the lifestyle to which they've
become accustomed.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
But that is really good advice too.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I'm an immigrant. I can't be like, oh, do it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Why I have to say, do something that makes lots
of money.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
The reason why I say that is everyone would have
told me that I was a moron when I stopped
practicing law and started writing about sports. Everyone would have said,
you're going to make you know, hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year practicing law.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
What are you doing? You're going backwards. You've spent all
this money on this thing.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
But what I have seen is a lot of people
pursue things that they don't like, right, And ultimately, if
you pursue something that you don't like, the people who
do like what you're doing are going to be more
successful because they're not trying to get out of it, right,
They're not looking at the clock. They're like, I'm still
(22:06):
amazed when I write how I look up and it's
been two hours and it feels like it was ten
minutes to me, Right, it was captivating to me. It's
just my brain is engaged and time passes quickly. If
you love something, Ultimately, people who love something typically are
going to be far more successful than people who don't. Now,
(22:27):
hopefully what you love is not basket weaving.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Right.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
There are certain things, Yeah, there are certain things that
you could love that are never going to pay enough
to be able to make a living.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, well you're right.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Unless you're the best basket weaver ever and everybody comes
to you for the basket weaving, then who knows?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I watched them?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Did you see the video of the guy doing the
yo yos? Like, I don't know, if you went megaviral,
the guy doing the yo yos maybe the greatest person
at doing something Like I watched him, and I'm like,
I don't, like, it's the greatest maybe performance I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I don't know what being the greatest what being the
greatest yo yo guy pays? You know?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
So there are some things you could pursue where you
would have to have an adult conversation with your kid
and be like, hey, you know, like, I don't know,
underwater rhythmic gymnastics, something cool to do something that you
probably don't make a living doing. So there is a
rational element to it. But most things in life you
(23:29):
can find a way to make a living doing them.
There are, however, a few exceptions where maybe parents need
to get involved and say, hey, we need a way
to make a living associated with this too.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Right, Well, I've loved this conversation, Clay. I think you
are so interesting and have so many unique points of view.
Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Sleep.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
I think it's like the number one thing that ever Like,
maybe you are, well, everybody's jealous on jet of people
who only need like four hours do that.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
No, there is a.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Tiny subset of the human race that has the genetic
capability to sleep like four hours a night and be
flawless and grade at everything.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah. Yeah, he's an example.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
And I think I function on a little bit less
sleep than most people do. But I think I tell
my boys all the time the number, like the whole
idea of hey, I'm gonna stay up all night and
cram and all this stuff. I say, you're better off
getting a good night's sleep studying as long as you can.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
The best thing you can do is get eight hours.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Of uninterrupted sleep almost across the board, because it allows
you to deal with the slings and arrows of daily
life a little bit better than you otherwise would. And
it's something that you can control. I'll give you one more.
I've only started doing this recently. Go walk when you
talk on the phone, like in your neighborhood, wherever you are.
(24:57):
If you're going to have try to slot a bunch
of different calls. If you have to do it, bang
bang bang, go walk a couple of miles while you
do it. That walk passes faster, you're getting exercise, you're moving,
it's healthy.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
It's a far better way to go through that process.
So there's two.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I love those. Thank you so much for coming on.
He is Clay Travis.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Check him out at the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
radio show.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Excellent work. Play, Thanks so much. Can't wait to read
your book.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
We're excited that you're in the podcast network. Keep killing it,
and we're fans of yours. So I hope everybody is
giving you all the credit that you deserve too.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Thanks play
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markoviz Show on iHeartRadio.
My guest today is the founder of OutKick, the co
host of the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton radio show,
and the founder of the podcast network, which platforms the
Carol Marcowitch Show.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome Clay Travis.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (00:20):
I apologize the lights are off in my studio, so
if I look like I'm in a cave, just pretend
I'm Batman.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I feel like it's a perfect vibe.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Actually, So, you have a lot of podcasts on the
Clay and Buck podcast network.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I have two of those podcasts, and one of.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The things I do on the show, and I don't
expect you to know it, is I ask all of
my guests a set of three questions, and I switch
up my questions at my yearly anniversary mark two year
anniversaries coming up in October.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
The first time you came on this show, you actually.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Caused a little bit of a sensation with the answers
to one of your questions. You are my second ever
guest ever, and the three questions I asked my first season.
One of the questions was do you think that you've
made it and you said no. And I had multiple
people write into me. I had listener named Anna Rode in,
(01:14):
how the heck does Clay Travis not think he's made it?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
His life seems set.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Another listener actually also named Clay, wrote in and said,
if Clay Travis hasn't made it, how can any of
us say that we have to be fair?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
You said in some ways yes, but in other ways no.
Do you stand by that answer?
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Yeah, because I think when you say I've made it,
it suggests that you're at a final destination. And I
don't think I'm at a final destination. To me, you
either are building or you're maintaining. And I like to build.
I like to try to create new things. I like
to try to go to places that I haven't been before.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And so to me, when you say, oh.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
I've made it, it's as if you're trying to maintain
where you already are. And I think there's more opportunities
out there, and I think there's things that I can
be better at, and so I guess that's kind of
indicative of my idea or ideal growth mindset.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, I don't expect that I know everything.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I hope that every day I learn a little bit
better and get a little bit better at everything. And
so I think when you start thinking you've made it,
you kind of rest on your laurels. I'm always working,
I'm always trying to find something new, make sure I'm
not missing something, and so I still, yeah, I don't
think I've made it interesting.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So it's funny because I couldn't find some of the
other emails that you know, people DM me, people message
me on Instagram. I don't know, but one of them
specifically referenced he has a hot wife, like and it
was like, you know, considered that as like.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Part of the package. And so it's not just about career.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Like I think people look at you know, Touchwood your
life and they think, like, you know, Clay Travis has
it pretty good.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Look, I mean I do feel very fortunate. I think
it's important to start off each day to the extent
that people need life advice for me, which I don't
know if it's a great thing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
This is a show about life advice, So I think, yeah, look.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
You can be grateful for what you have and also
aspire to more. And so I have a great deal
of gratitude. I've got three happy, healthy kids that seem
to be doing pretty well, thriving even I've got a
wife who tolerates me that I've been married to for
twenty one years, and I like to think that we're happy,
(03:44):
maybe happier now than we have been in you know,
early days of marriage. And I think certainly there were
way more challenges in my life in terms of financially
in terms of being able to know you're going to
pay your mortgage when I was younger. But I would
like to think I'm forty six now. I would like
(04:04):
to think that when you, if we had this conversation
when I was fifty six, that I wouldn't just be
in the same place now that I was when I
was forty six. And there are.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Positives and negatives that come with that.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
You probably could say, hey, dial back, do less, But
in my mind, I'm always trying to do more, trying
to grow what I'm doing. So I really don't think
that I quote unquote made it.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
I guess if you use as.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
The standard, hey are you financially secure? Are you happy?
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (04:39):
But I don't think that I'm finished or that if
you talk again, if we talked in ten years, I
would happy. Yeah, I don't think I'd be happy if
I were doing only the exact same things that I've
done now.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
There's still lots of things I'd like to achieve.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
So you went to law school, you were going to
be a lawyer. You were a lawyer actually for a
little while. What made you switch to media?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
It moves too slow, And I think that was the
reason for me that practicing law wasn't that satisfying, because you.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Could look at an issue and say.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
Okay, this is what we have to figure out, this
is what we have to decide, and along the way
it just took forever, and so much of being a
litigator is just a procedural battle, and it wasn't particularly fun,
and I didn't think it was intellectually stimulating in a
way that actually led to problems getting solved. It was
(05:33):
almost like the job is to be the problem. The
job is to be the roadblock and just make it
drag on as long as possible. And I wanted to
get things solved and move on.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Did you have a plan?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
See if it wasn't being a lawyer and it wasn't being.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
In media, I thought, and I still think, this is
probably an ideal world and there's probably in the Marvel multiverse.
You have kids, you probably are familiar with the Marvel multiverse.
There probably is a world where I was a creative
writing teacher at a college. I really love studying writing,
(06:10):
teaching creative writing. I got an MFA in creative writing
in addition to the JD. I taught at Vanderbilt University.
While I was doing that, and when I was in college,
the courses that I loved the most were the creative
writing classes.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
I liked being in a small.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Group, sitting around everybody reading stories, analyzing them, giving feedback.
I love that reading other great writers. So I think
there's a world where I'm not in the public arena
really in any way. I just kind of sit back
and work on trying to do books. And I still
(06:45):
think of myself more as a writer than a radio
or TV guy, even though I don't spend as much
time writing as much as I used to. And so
there's that That would probably have been my plan. See,
you know, go to a college and just in the
rest of my life kind of teaching undergrads.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
You know, how to handle creative writing courses. I love that.
I love teaching, and I like.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Being in a you could definitely still do that as
a you know, third act.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
I don't know, there's very many universities are that excited
to hire Clay Travis as a professor.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Things are changing, Clay anything is.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It's a good point. Maybe Hillsdale would hire me.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Yeah, definitely. So what do you worry about in life?
In life, in your day to day.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
I worry about my boys.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I mean, you know, probably ninety five percent of my
concerns to the extent that I have them if I
have nightmares and involves something happening to one of my boys.
Speaker 3 (07:42):
And so you know, they're.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
Seventeen, fourteen, and ten, so they're moving towards adulthood, but
they're still very young men.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
I was a teenage boy.
Speaker 4 (07:51):
I just know all the stupid things that boys get into,
the nervousness of having them behind the wheel driving a car,
what they or their friends might get into. That, by
far is my number one concern personally. Now, if you
want to talk like large universe, it's that I really think,
(08:13):
and part of me wants to write a whole book
on this. I think that men and women are just
not connecting, and I'm worried about where we go as
a society when we're telling men to be effeminate versions
of themselves and women to be masculine versions of themselves,
and are we bringing men and women together? So I
(08:35):
tell my boys and they always roll their eyes like that.
It's like, you know, get married and have as many
kids as you can. Because there are lots of great
societies Italy, South Korea, Japan, even China, which is obviously
historically a great society, They're not having kids and the
population of the world, I'm concerned could start to collapse.
(08:57):
And I think about it in two ways, like this
is in my new book that is coming out in November.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
But Carol, you probably see this. Some of the most successful.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Women in the world are now going and picking sperm
from men that they never meet to have babies without
having husbands. Right, they're just flipping through it like it's
the NFL draft and they're like, this guy's six y two,
he got a fifteen hundred SAT.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
You know, he went to Harvard or Yale or wherever
it is.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Oh, I want he's got great blue eyes, good hair,
Like I want to have a designer baby with him.
And they have no actual interaction. Flips me tons of
really pretty girls just go on only fans and thousands
of men convince themselves that they have a relationship with
the mn that are basically just hiring bots or hiring
(09:44):
men to pretend to be them to make them think
that they have a relationship with a pretty girl. Like
what is going on there? Both the only fans perspective,
where men are seeking out women that they don't actually
know to have relationships with, and then women are choosing
sperm donors because they can't find an actual man that
(10:04):
they want to marry and have a family with. I'm
concerned about what that dynamic is. And here's my big
picture concerned. I don't know what you think about this.
If you went back to nineteen sixty five and you
told a rich, desirable male, hey, what is the ideal
world for you when you're twenty five years old, he
basically would design the world that we.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Have right now, where you have to have almost no effort.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
You can go look at pictures of girls in bikinis,
all of all ages, and just go send them a
message and see if they respond, and if they don't,
you're onto the next one.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
We have made human interaction very.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
Disposable and in some ways, I think female empowerment has
actually led to a world in which men's fantasies are
fulfilled and we get no commitment and everybody is less happy.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
So those are the things big pictures.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
That I think about that are different than maybe you
or mine's generation when people still went out to a
bar and actually had to have a face conversation.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
The real life thing, I mean, we talk about it
a lot on this show, you know, with the collapse
of romantic relationships, where you, like you said, women are
going and having babies on their own and men are
having relationships with OnlyFans. Maybe maybe they're just having relationships
with the AI at this.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Point, Yeah, now's not even a real.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Person, right.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So but the thing is, to me, it all starts
from people aren't even having friendships anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
I talk about this a lot, the collapse of friendships.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Where yeah, fifty years ago you had like nine friends
and now people have like two. And it's scary because
you don't see that improving. You see this AI thing, people, Oh,
you can have a relationship with AI and it's accepted.
It's in the New York Times as a headline as
if that's normal or real or something to promote.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think it's a real problem.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I agree completely, and I think it's only going to
get worse because AI is gonna get way more reliable.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I don't know if you've seen this, there are.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Tons of now I think fake AI women with only
fans pages like these are not even really I understand
airbrushed women, all those things is not real in some ways,
but it's a real person. And now it's a completely
made up girl. And the whole dynamic of this is
very strange too, because I also think, you know, like
(12:28):
back in the day when my age we would try
to like get a Playboy magazine, most guys would never
meet a Playboy centerfold in their whole life. So there
was and let's say it's not a centerfold, it's Jenny McCarthy,
or it's you know, Pamela Anderson. Right, it's a pretty
girl that's on television, but you know, like you're never
gonna really interact with her. It seems to me that
(12:50):
we have gone from the super high level celebrities, you know,
the Denise Richards of the world's the Carmen Electras, like
we can run through that whole list of like nineties
calendar or pinups and now whatever. The pretty girl is
of a sorority, she's super famous in that tiny little pond,
and I think it makes things feel less like I
(13:13):
don't think women were threatened by Centerfolds back in the day.
It feels like there's more antagonism now. And if you're
a young girl, what is it thirty percent of teenage
girls have thought about killing themselves. They can see in
a way that you and I couldn't when we were
in school. Oh, that person is super rich and they've
got this great vacation and they got better clothes. And
(13:34):
I think it just leads Comparison is the thief of
joy in life. And I think Jordan Peterson has a
great line which I think is very helpful, where he says,
don't compare yourself to other people. Compare yourself today to
where you were yesterday, and think about getting better yourself.
And I think there's so much comparison out there that
most of us are not going to be drop dead gorgeous.
(13:56):
Most of us are not going to get sixteen hundreds
on our SAT. That doesn't mean you can't spot to
be better at something, but when you're only comparing your
worst to someone else's best. I think it leads to
a profound sadness, which I think has gripped much of
the country at many parts.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Of the day and night.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Totally agree.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
And this is why Clay Favis doesn't think he's made it,
because he's comparing himself to himself only right.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Well, I mean, look, you can't compare yourself to like
I'm never gonna have Michael Jordan's jumping ability, I which
I was like, it would be super awesome. Right, You
can aspire to be the best version of yourself and
that is oftentimes way better than what you are today,
as opposed to trying to aspire to be the best
version of someone else. This is the way that anyway,
(14:43):
I kind of think through it.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
We're going to take a quick break and be right
back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. What's the new book about?
Give us a preview.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
So it's called Balls, And in fact, this is what
the cover looks like, very understating. Yeah, and so the
concept is sports fans, young men and Trump how they
won the twenty twenty four election. But really what it
dives into is how are we losing young men and
(15:15):
how do we get them to be productive members of
society when they're only getting forty percent of college degrees,
When the average young man is frankly falling far behind
the average young woman, what can we do? And why
are men feeling like they are being left behind by
(15:37):
so much of society? So this is it looks at
the election, but the prism is using athletics, which to
me is a great example of this. I make the
argument in the book that the last real source of
authority that everybody trusts in America is the scoreboard. Everybody
trusts that the score is right. If somebody steps on
(15:59):
the line for a three doesn't get two feet in
for a touchdown. In the NFL, we all go look
at the camera and everybody kind of makes their own decision,
and most of the time we end up agreeing. We
don't have a lot of those commonalities anymore. In the book,
I argue about why sports is important. I bet your
husband would sign off on this. Sports is the only
thing I can think of where when two people argue,
(16:21):
they end up liking each other more.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah, absolutely do not agree.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
But you're like, hey, I speak a common language with
this guy, and I think that we need more and
more of those places in society. You don't get into, Hey,
what should the tax code be? How do we handle Ukraine?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
You know, it's like, hey, who's the best quarterback in
the NFL? Let's argue.
Speaker 4 (16:42):
I might not agree with you, but at the end
of the conversation, I'm probably gonna like you more. And
that's the great thing about sports.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Is there a chapter on how the Tennessee Titans suck?
Speaker 3 (16:53):
No, there is a reference.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
There is a reference in there to the fact that
my team's basically exist to make me sad and keep
me humble. So, yes, it is unfortunate that that I
am afflicted with the sad status of being a Tennessee
Titan fan.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
That's right, you're afflicted.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Yes, it is a curse.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
What advice would you give your sixteen year old self
having to do it all over again?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
Don't change anything because I like where I am, so
I was actually having this conversation the other night. Maybe
I could have ended up in a better place than
I am. But I think if you go back and
worry about trying to remake things, you missed the lessons
that you learned along the way, and you aren't the
person that you are today. I'm imperfect, I'm flawing and
(17:44):
all sorts of things that I got wrong, but I
like to think that I have learned from them and
it's helped to get me to where I am today.
I think if you had told me how long it
would take to make a living in what I do,
I think it would have been really discouraging. And so
I think it's important to really be tough and find
(18:06):
something that you enjoy pursuing and just try to get
better at it. And I think a lot of people
in this era now they see, oh, that person's got
a million TikTok followers.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
Why don't I have a million TikTok followers?
Speaker 4 (18:20):
And I think the answer is, well, you can't compare
yourself to other people. Are you getting better at whatever
you like to do? And I like to think that
I've gotten a little bit better at media every day,
and I still have a ceiling that I could aspire
to reach in what we do.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
So I think it's just be tough.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
I think if I could go back to sixteen year
old me, I don't think I was tough enough. But
I think if you tell yourself, oh, be tougher, you
actually have to take those punches. You can't really make
somebody tougher. You have to go through it, and you
have to get scars, and sometimes those scars that's painful, right,
break bones. It's tough, but I think you have to
(19:04):
do it. And I think that's why you know, ultimately
you have to let kids fail too, because failure isn't
a sign of ultimate failure. It means that you're trying
to do something hard, and doing hard things is something
to aspire too, I believe.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Is that the same advice you give your boys.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Yeah, I tell him, I try not to look at result.
I try to look at effort, because effort translates across
all medium and sometimes you're really talented at something, you know.
My oldest son is is really really academically gifted, but
he's in debate, and debate is tough and you have
(19:43):
to work really hard and a lot of times you
lose and the judges might be frustrating, and so I
was very proud of how hard he works. My middle
son loves football. He has played seventh and eighth grade football.
They barely throw the football and he plays wide receiver
and he is running the route. Every route like it's
fourth down in the Super Bowl, even though they're unlikely
(20:06):
to throw to him.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
That all you can control in life is your effort.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
You can't control anybody else, You can't control any other
aspect of life. All you individually control is how hard
you work at something. And so finding something and being
willing to work hard. And I tell my boys all
the time, don't let money be that guide. Hey, if
you love coaching football and you just want to be
(20:31):
a high school football coach, be the best high school
football coach on the planet.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
You know you're never going to make a lot of
money necessarily, But.
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Success and pursuit of excellence is a reward in many ways.
And so I try to tell my kids, hey, don't
think about the financial side of things as much as
am I willing to work really hard at this, and
if you are, I think a lot of times the
financial side of things and the satisfaction that comes from
it fall that I hope.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
So you know, I don't necessarily give that advice. I
actually tell my kids very often that they're very expensive
and that they should try to do something that they'll
be able to pay for the lifestyle to which they've
become accustomed.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
But that is really good advice too.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I'm an immigrant. I can't be like, oh, do it.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Why I have to say, do something that makes lots
of money.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
The reason why I say that is everyone would have
told me that I was a moron when I stopped
practicing law and started writing about sports. Everyone would have said,
you're going to make you know, hundreds of thousands of
dollars a year practicing law.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
What are you doing? You're going backwards. You've spent all
this money on this thing.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
But what I have seen is a lot of people
pursue things that they don't like, right, And ultimately, if
you pursue something that you don't like, the people who
do like what you're doing are going to be more
successful because they're not trying to get out of it, right,
They're not looking at the clock. They're like, I'm still
(22:06):
amazed when I write how I look up and it's
been two hours and it feels like it was ten
minutes to me, Right, it was captivating to me. It's
just my brain is engaged and time passes quickly. If
you love something, Ultimately, people who love something typically are
going to be far more successful than people who don't. Now,
(22:27):
hopefully what you love is not basket weaving.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Right.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
There are certain things, Yeah, there are certain things that
you could love that are never going to pay enough
to be able to make a living.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, well you're right.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Unless you're the best basket weaver ever and everybody comes
to you for the basket weaving, then who knows?
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I watched them?
Speaker 4 (22:46):
Did you see the video of the guy doing the
yo yos? Like, I don't know, if you went megaviral,
the guy doing the yo yos maybe the greatest person
at doing something Like I watched him, and I'm like,
I don't, like, it's the greatest maybe performance I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I don't know what being the greatest what being the
greatest yo yo guy pays? You know?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
So there are some things you could pursue where you
would have to have an adult conversation with your kid
and be like, hey, you know, like, I don't know,
underwater rhythmic gymnastics, something cool to do something that you
probably don't make a living doing. So there is a
rational element to it. But most things in life you
(23:29):
can find a way to make a living doing them.
There are, however, a few exceptions where maybe parents need
to get involved and say, hey, we need a way
to make a living associated with this too.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Right, Well, I've loved this conversation, Clay. I think you
are so interesting and have so many unique points of view.
Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Sleep.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
I think it's like the number one thing that ever Like,
maybe you are, well, everybody's jealous on jet of people
who only need like four hours do that.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
No, there is a.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
Tiny subset of the human race that has the genetic
capability to sleep like four hours a night and be
flawless and grade at everything.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah. Yeah, he's an example.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
And I think I function on a little bit less
sleep than most people do. But I think I tell
my boys all the time the number, like the whole
idea of hey, I'm gonna stay up all night and
cram and all this stuff. I say, you're better off
getting a good night's sleep studying as long as you can.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
The best thing you can do is get eight hours.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Of uninterrupted sleep almost across the board, because it allows
you to deal with the slings and arrows of daily
life a little bit better than you otherwise would. And
it's something that you can control. I'll give you one more.
I've only started doing this recently. Go walk when you
talk on the phone, like in your neighborhood, wherever you are.
(24:57):
If you're going to have try to slot a bunch
of different calls. If you have to do it, bang
bang bang, go walk a couple of miles while you
do it. That walk passes faster, you're getting exercise, you're moving,
it's healthy.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
It's a far better way to go through that process.
So there's two.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I love those. Thank you so much for coming on.
He is Clay Travis.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Check him out at the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
radio show.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Excellent work. Play, Thanks so much. Can't wait to read
your book.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
We're excited that you're in the podcast network. Keep killing it,
and we're fans of yours. So I hope everybody is
giving you all the credit that you deserve too.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Thanks play
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
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Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
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