October 10, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, AQR Capital Management co-founder Cliff Asness opens up about his path from math prodigy to one of the most influential voices in quantitative investing. Known for his sharp wit and candid opinions, Asness discusses his political views, worries about today’s polarized climate, and how AI is reshaping the future of work. He also shares hard-earned wisdom for young professionals—why passion beats trend-chasing, and the small, practical habits that drive lasting success and personal growth. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marketman Show. My
guest today is Cliff As. Cliff is co founder and
managing principle of AQR Capital Management, A one fifty five
be quantitative investment manager. Hi, Cliffs, so nice to have
you on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Carol, It's nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Cliff.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Those words, I mean, I don't really know what my
husband does, so I really don't know what is a
one fifty five be quantitative investment manager?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I think probably me. But someone sent you an abbreviation
for a billion dollars. Okay, we manage about one hundred
and fifty billion dollars for clients.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I see.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And did you always want to be a quantitative investment manager?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I don't think anyone.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Did you dream of that? As a little boy?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Seven? Play in a little league?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Says, you know what I want to do is grow
up to be a quantitative investment manager.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
So what did you want to?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Always?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Kind of a mathey kid, I kind of just got
led down that path and I'm very happy with it,
not just in how it turned out, but I've found
it extremely interesting and loved learning about it. But no,
it would be a lie to say prior to being
somewhere in my early twenties. Probably that I that I thought, yeah,
(01:28):
I'm going to be a quantitative.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Investment manager.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Maybe nowadays is there's a great cartoon making fun of
where I live Greenwich, Connecticut that has like two little
kids talking and one's making fun of the other because
their father runs the wrong kind of hedge fund.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
How embarrassing, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Maybe nowadays kids are are more tuned to these things
at an earlier age. But at the age of seven,
I thought I'd be a lawyer or a baseball player.
And when I discovered that in real life baseball didn't
let you hit off a tee, I was down a
little more.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, So what would have been plan B if this
hadn't worked out? Not at seven, but let's say in
your early twenties, what were the other options?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
I probably would have been an attorney. I come from
a family not all but with a fair amount. My
dad was an assistant district attorney. I have a cousin
who's kind of the weird sheep of the family or
no one really talks to.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Who was John Gotti's attorney in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Sounds like an interesting cousin.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yeah, I don't know if my firm is thrilled with
me mentioning that association. Okay, but you can't control what
you cut, can't control what your father's cousin does, It's true.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, so I think that was probably the path the
least resistance for me.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
When I was in college, I was studying both computer
science and finance in this dual degree program, but I
still actually registered for the l SATs and.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
All registered for the ELSATS.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It was like autopilot for me. It's what I always assumed.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
And it was my father, who again was an attorney,
who said, why I thought you gave.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Up on that?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Why do you want to be a lawyer. You can
do math. I can't do math. I wouldn't do law
if I could do math. Yeah, and he I literally
changed it from the l SATs to the gmats based
on my dad. Wow, he was pretty wise, and listening
to him did work out for me a few times.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I didn't take the g mats because I can't
do math, and I did take the l SATs. And
my husband, who was just my friend at the time, said,
I don't know any happy lawyers. I really wou wouldn't
recommend that you go into this. So what has made
you just I guess we're not going to get too
much into politics at all, but you are outspoken.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
What makes you kind.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Of do that?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What makes you take take positions and be outspoken?
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Wish I fully understood that. My partners wish they fully
understood that. My wife, which is she fully understood that.
You know, if you look within my field, I'm known
as a bit of a flamethrower.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I think I've been on the side or right. When
I think something is kind of.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
A scam, I scream about it, and that's my interpretation.
Those I'm screaming at might not share that interpretation. But
I've always been kind of passionate, self confident to perhaps
the point of overconfidence. I've always mistakenly, possibly mistakenly, thought
I was funnier than I am. All that is a
(04:39):
recipe for someone who's going to tweet their opinions.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know, it's a dopamine hit, I admit that.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But also, if you do feel passionately about some things
I do about some things in the political arena, even
if it's a micro amount, if you feel that you
have any influence, that's quite a heady feeling, and it's
it almost starts to feel a little like a responsibility
to share what you're thinking. And I'm not saying I'm
sitting around altruistically all the time when I'm fighting with
someone on Twitter, thinking now I'm making the world a
(05:09):
better place. But the whole combination, you know, and it's
not just Twitter. I think I have eleven or some
odd op eds in the Wall Street Journal, some of
just financees, some get pretty political in commentary of in
the free press.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I'm passionate about this stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Most of the stuff I actually write about at least
overlaps with economics and finance. There's a lot in politics
that we all might be passionate about that that that,
you know, I don't think I have any special standing
to write about, but it is, particularly if there's any
overlap with economics or finance. I enjoy it, and you know, obviously,
(05:53):
like everyone else on Earth, I think I'm right that
it doesn't narrow it down.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So I think I'm helping and I can't quite resist it.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
See you as a very moderate guy.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It's funny that you you self describe as a flamethrower,
because I think of you as I mean you could
be sharp, you know, but you you take sort of
moderate normal positions.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Well, like a typical article that I'd write that fulfills
both of these things would be like, there are two
sides making insane claims about what this willow will not
do for investors, and the answer is really in the middle,
and it's much mondier. So the actual article is what
you said the way I say it.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I admit this.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
I fall in love with a good quipures, whether.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It's mean or like.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Like I talk about private assets, and one of their
advantages that I think is unfair is they don't have
to tell you what the prices are right, And in finance,
you worry about this thing called volatility, how much your
investments move around. So I coined the phrase volatility laundering,
like they're found a way to hide the volatility that
(07:09):
has some unfairly negative implications. I do not think they're
committing a crime, for instance. Yeah, but once I one
of my major weaknesses is once I come up with
a phrase I think is pithy, it the chance I'm
gonna not say it is vanishingly small. So I think
(07:30):
you can square this circle. I can be harsh and
biting but I think my my actual opinions are are
usually not too not too extreme.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, not outside the mainstream for sure. Do you consider
yourself an optimist?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, there's a joke in my family.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
My wife claims she didn't quite say this, but I
believe your wife.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Whatever it is, I believe your wife.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
But the joke is that she says, my glass is
in half empty or half full, it's bone dry, which
I though. One of my best friends and one of
my co founders of a q R, John lou tells
me that I talk like a pessimist, but I act
like an optimist starting affirm from leaving Goldman Sachs to
(08:19):
start a firm that may or may not work, believing
in what you do even when it's going through tough times.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And I think he may be right.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You know, at this point you grow up with a
lot of a cynical, sarcastic Jewish.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Humor that's always doom and gloom.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
That even I can't tell sometimes if I'm actually pessimist,
figure if I'm just used to.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Speaking that way.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
When my brother and I watch sports together, and if
we're not together, we're texting during the games, it's all pessimism.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
We could be up.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
I rout for the Yankees in baseball the Rangers in hockey.
Those are my two main sports. But all the New
York teams based.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Except a few, we'll text each other.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Like the Yankees were up ten to one yesterday, one
of I texted my brother, this ain't over and it's
supposed to be over. And I'm I'm cherry picking the
example because the game ended ten, right, which.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Is not supposed to happen. The Yankees have a bullpen
problem this year.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
But at ten to one, you're pretty certain you're going
to win the game, right har You.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Know, you're you're protecting your emotions, so when they do lose, you're.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Going to be like, well, I knew they were going
to lose, you know, and if they win, bonus.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That is the strategy.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I've done it my whole life, and I continue
to do it, and I still think it's a failed strategy.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I just can't get away from.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Because I don't think it actually produces the pain as
much as its supposed to.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I don't think it does.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
I think when the bad thing happens, I still I
still feel it. So yeah, I've been doing it all wrong,
but you know it's it's gotten me pretty far, so
I'm probably gonna stick with it.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
What do you worry about?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Worry about these days? Give me categories? There are so
many things to worry about.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
It just whatever, whatever keeps you up.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You said.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And I don't want to get too deep into politics,
but you can't look at our politics and not be frightened.
For a long time, I've been a self described kind
of center right libertarian leaning, and that makes you pretty
homeless these days. Politically, I am a big believer in
horseshoe theory, where you go left or right far enough
and you start looking like authoritarian socialists. And I don't
(10:34):
think either authoritarianism or socialism is moral or works.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So that is a worry.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I'm not, you know, to make what I said before
maybe a little bit of a lie. I'm not a
total pessimist on this, in that we've seen a lot
of things in this country that have then fixed themselves,
and I think it is important to remember that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, but I don't like where we are politically.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
I'm my libertarianism, I can say, through some worries, has
been tested a lot. I still would call myself a
libertarian but a much weaker one than maybe ten fifteen
years ago. You know, you can go anywhere all the
things we've legalized, drug, legalization, online gambling. In principle, I've
always been adults can do whatever the hell they want.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Me too do.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, and I still ned out that way.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
But I'm a little I will admit to uncertainty, right, little.
I think it has been more negative of an impact
than I would have guessed, right, And so do I
feel a little queasier about that. Some of that might
be having four twenty something year old kids. And if
kids don't make you a little less libertarian, I can't fight.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Adults can do whatever they want, but not you kids,
not you adults.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, because they're still kids, no matter how old they are. Yeah,
here's here's another one. AI.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, I bow to no one on making fun of
people I call Luod Heites for less forty years of
my life.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
You know, the idea that has been brought so many
times that productivity enhancing things is going to destroy the
world because it's gonna put everyone out of a job
has been wrong every single time.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
It's always made the productivity of workers.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Maybe not this time, yes, maybe not this time, I
would not go so far as to predict disaster. There's
a difference between, you know, walking around with the sandwich
board around saying the world's gonna end yeah, versus saying
you're a little more worried than you ever thought you
would be.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Again, this might be having kids.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
When you have twenty something kids entering the workforce and
you're thinking, exactly what the hell are they going to do? Yeah,
that'll focus the mind, you know, long term, I'm a
techno optimist about these things. If it brings massive abundance
and prosperity with very little human work necessary, that's not
(13:01):
necessarily a terrible place to end up. But the transition
to that world where we all identify with work and
value work in.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
A sci fi kind of world, which you know, it's
less sci fi.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Every day, where we have great abundance without having to
work tremendously, we have to adjust to that.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You're not going to stop technology.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
So something I've always believed in that that work, you know,
is a wonderful principle to organize your life on.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
That might have to change.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And the transition makes me pretty me pretty nervous, right,
even though I'm still thinking we're gonna end up in
a good.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Place, and the transitions like coming soon. It's it's not
something you know ten years out, twenty years out. It
seems like it's like two years out, five years out.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah, I mean I was an undergraduate computer science major
in the ninete It was the nineteen eight and involved
four trend so it's not exactly cutting edge AI. But
you know, I probably know a little bit more about
the stuff than the average person, and I'm cantinually like
even the experts. I think even the AI experts get
surprised at how fast everything has moved. I don't think
(14:06):
there are probably some who got a ride, of course
there's always some, but five ten years ago, I think
most people, even people who know a lot more than me,
would be surprised at how fast it's coming. And because
this technology builds upon itself, it helps build the next
version of itself, the speed just keeps accelerating. Yeah, the
(14:29):
life's going to be different in five years and very
different in twenty years more.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Coming up with cliff fastness.
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Speaker 1 (16:03):
Question I ask all of my guests, is what advice
would you give your sixteen year old self? And I
want you to answer that, but I also want to
know what advice do you give a sixteen year old today?
So if you could do both of those.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Sure, probably pretty similar for me.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I might tailor it a little bit, you know, start
thinking about how you're going to deal with hair loss.
When I was sixteen, I subscribe to the old wives
tale that it's your father, it's your mother's father, that
that determines this, and it is maybe correlated, but it's
far from this positive. And my mother's father unfortunately passed
(16:46):
away in his mid sixties, but with a full, beautiful
head of hair.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Like stalin, so I thought I was immune.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know, if I want to cheat, I might just
whisper the words in vidia.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
But that's probably that isn't fair. I find I am
going to try to answer the question.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Carol, but I always have to be careful. I don't
often get questions like this, but I do. I speak
in public, and sometimes I get them. And a lot
of answers sound like platitudes to me, and even more
than a platitude, a lot of answers kind of ignore
trade offs. H I should have done more of this. Well,
to do more of this, yet you probably had to
(17:25):
do less of something. When I was young, I used
to read a ton in the back of a car.
It never bothered me to read in a car, which
is just a lucky life advantage if that doesn't bother you.
And my mom always used to say, you're never going
to know how to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You're paying no attention.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
You have your just nose in a book, and many
years well, yeah, that's a separate thing. I love when
technology specifically fixes something I suck at. But years later
my mom would kind of gloat about this a little bit.
And my mom was a wonderful person, but she wasn't
above gloating about being right, because you know we're related and.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We both do that.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
She'd be like, I told you wouldn't know how to
get anywhere. We're all that reading. And I would be like,
and this is maybe this is a little arrogant, but
I'd be Mom, maybe the reading helped with something else, right.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
You can't just switch one off, yeah, and have the other.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I do subscribe to the old cliche, which has been
if you look on the internet, has been claimed by
like the Internet is ruined quotes every quote I think
I knew is the Internet had some smart ass explaining
to me, No, it wasn't actually FDR who said that
fear itself thing.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Now I think he said that one.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
I think you did say that.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, but you know, the old If I had known
i'd live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.
I would tell the sixteen year old me that you're
going to spend from the age of twenty five to
fifty five eating like crap and exercise very little because
you're obsessed with your job, and maybe use that as
(19:04):
an excuse.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Sometimes you're just tired.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I got religion about four or five years ago, and
I feel much better. Really, yeah, I do, But you
can't totally fix thirty.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Years of indolence.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
My sixteen year By the way, anything I'm gonna tell
my sixteen year old self, they're going to totally ignore.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
So the other question involved here is how to actually
convince your sixteen year old self to do what you're saying.
Here's a weird one. If the circumstances are right. This
is certainly something I would never force try to have
kids earlier in life than you were thinking about. My
wife and I had kids in our mid to late pies,
(19:45):
and I would not trade these kids for anything in
the world. But I wish I was fifty at this
stage of their life instead of hitting sixty in a year.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So, you know, that's a real hard thing for a
kid to think.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
About, Where will I be when my kid is ex
But again, with the benefit of hindsight, that maybe is
overly specific, but my back was already beginning to hurt
when my kids were fifteen and wanted to do something.
It would have been nice to have that front loaded
a little bit again.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Career sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And you got to find the right person.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
You know. I would certainly not sacrifice that, yes, just
to have it exactly the kids, But that might be
a substantive thing I tell my sixteen year old self
and tell my kids.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think my wife has told my kids.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
That, right. You know, advice that I probably wouldn't give
myself just didn't apply to me. But you know that
I might give a sixteen year old now, maybe even
a college age kid career advice. This one's also overly specific,
but I think a lot of kids chase the currently
(20:54):
hot job and I've seen a lot of we interview
a lot of people at top schools. Sometimes wear the
hot job. Sometimes it's a different field. Yeah, I think
you're always five to.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Ten years behind if you're chasing the hot job.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
If you're talented, you're going to be successful at something,
and it's not a disaster.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But I'm not.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Saying follow your bliss. When someone says follow their bliss,
I want to punch them in the face. My bliss
is punching people who say follow their bliss.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And by the way, I am joking. I'm not one
of these.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
You know, punching in the face on the internet people.
There's no actual violence being advocated here. When choosing your career,
you're definitely allowed to think about, you know, what it
provides for you.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
But if you're always.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Saying, wow, everyone wants to be a management consultant now,
so you know, a lot of top students are naturally competitive.
If that's the career everyone wants now, they want to
get the best one. And I'm not I'm not picking
on management consulting. I don't even know where they are
in the pecking order right now. But I'm saying a
lot of kids, particularly top performers chase what's hot at
(21:58):
the time, figuring out what they're very good at and
what they like the best subject to being a lucrative.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Career that they can do well at.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I think they'd be better off not jumping on the bandwagon.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
It's the hottest job right now.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So that was a Pope Carie of weirdly disparaty.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
You enjoyed all of that. Actually, I think you are
super interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I could listen to the Cliff Asna's show every day
if you want to have that. I really enjoyed getting
to know you on here, and I just am so
glad you came on.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Can I be sarcastic for sex?
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Be sarcastic?
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Spend spend less time thinking and researching how to improve
your life? You know, as an extreme example, don't ever
read about other people's morning routines. For God's sakes, post
your own their lies. You know everyone's morning route. As
I wake up at four am, I have just seen
(23:03):
I have six egg whites.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Yeah, and that's not what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
No, I did very little planning and very little conscious improvement.
Find something you're passionate about, don't be afraid to be
obsessive about it. Don't plan on how you do things
optimally when you eventually do them, Just actually do something
you can balance, you know, life. Balance is wonderful and
overrated at the same time. You can balance your life
(23:33):
through time, but not at all times, meaning there are
times you could take it easier and pursue other things.
There are times you want to be an obsessive nut,
and there are times you really can't do both at once.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
The habit all.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I don't think I ever quite had it all at
one time, you know, in a very personal sense. At
one point one of my co founders and I flowed down.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
At work.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
We delegated a lot of responsibility, partially because when you
have really great people, they have to grow so the
But you know, this maybe should have been a tip
in number two and not number three.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Going forward, we've changed that.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
We've gotten much more hands on, and I will be
until I retire.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Really what made you change?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I would say, do things well. It wasn't working very well.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
It was getting very bureaucratic, and and and and and sclerotic.
H John and John and I John Lewis, the fellow
i'm referring to as a co founder with mine along
with David Cabilla. We were still involved and still had
final say, and we had a whole firm trying to
get to consensus before coming to us. Yeah, and sometimes
(24:43):
it was six months of that and we didn't even realize.
When you have a leaner, smaller organization that you're very
involved with, you may not make every decision right, but
you make them fast and firm. And it's like military
tacticians say, you know, there's some quote, I'm going to
mangle it. A good plant secuted quickly is better than
a perfect plan. Yeah, and I think there's something that
(25:06):
that there's something to that. Do whatever you're doing full
speed until you don't do it, and then don't try
to do it half speed.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Let someone else move on.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Thank you so much. He is Cliff Asnaz. Check him
out on X.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
He's got really interesting perspective and I always enjoy following him.
Thank you Cliff for coming on.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
It's a lot of fun. Carol, thank you
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Marketman Show. My
guest today is Cliff As. Cliff is co founder and
managing principle of AQR Capital Management, A one fifty five
be quantitative investment manager. Hi, Cliffs, so nice to have
you on.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Carol, It's nice to be here.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Cliff.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Those words, I mean, I don't really know what my
husband does, so I really don't know what is a
one fifty five be quantitative investment manager?
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I think probably me. But someone sent you an abbreviation
for a billion dollars. Okay, we manage about one hundred
and fifty billion dollars for clients.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I see.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And did you always want to be a quantitative investment manager?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
I don't think anyone.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
Did you dream of that? As a little boy?
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Seven? Play in a little league?
Speaker 4 (00:56):
Says, you know what I want to do is grow
up to be a quantitative investment manager.
Speaker 5 (01:02):
So what did you want to?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Always?
Speaker 4 (01:03):
Kind of a mathey kid, I kind of just got
led down that path and I'm very happy with it,
not just in how it turned out, but I've found
it extremely interesting and loved learning about it. But no,
it would be a lie to say prior to being
somewhere in my early twenties. Probably that I that I thought, yeah,
(01:28):
I'm going to be a quantitative.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Investment manager.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Maybe nowadays is there's a great cartoon making fun of
where I live Greenwich, Connecticut that has like two little
kids talking and one's making fun of the other because
their father runs the wrong kind of hedge fund.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
How embarrassing, you know.
Speaker 4 (01:50):
Maybe nowadays kids are are more tuned to these things
at an earlier age. But at the age of seven,
I thought I'd be a lawyer or a baseball player.
And when I discovered that in real life baseball didn't
let you hit off a tee, I was down a
little more.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah, So what would have been plan B if this
hadn't worked out? Not at seven, but let's say in
your early twenties, what were the other options?
Speaker 4 (02:16):
I probably would have been an attorney. I come from
a family not all but with a fair amount. My
dad was an assistant district attorney. I have a cousin
who's kind of the weird sheep of the family or
no one really talks to.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Who was John Gotti's attorney in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
Sounds like an interesting cousin.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yeah, I don't know if my firm is thrilled with
me mentioning that association. Okay, but you can't control what
you cut, can't control what your father's cousin does, It's true.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, so I think that was probably the path the
least resistance for me.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
When I was in college, I was studying both computer
science and finance in this dual degree program, but I
still actually registered for the l SATs and.
Speaker 5 (03:03):
All registered for the ELSATS.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Right.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
It was like autopilot for me. It's what I always assumed.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
And it was my father, who again was an attorney,
who said, why I thought you gave.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Up on that?
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Why do you want to be a lawyer. You can
do math. I can't do math. I wouldn't do law
if I could do math. Yeah, and he I literally
changed it from the l SATs to the gmats based
on my dad. Wow, he was pretty wise, and listening
to him did work out for me a few times.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, I didn't take the g mats because I can't
do math, and I did take the l SATs. And
my husband, who was just my friend at the time, said,
I don't know any happy lawyers. I really wou wouldn't
recommend that you go into this. So what has made
you just I guess we're not going to get too
much into politics at all, but you are outspoken.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
What makes you kind.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Of do that?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What makes you take take positions and be outspoken?
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Wish I fully understood that. My partners wish they fully
understood that. My wife, which is she fully understood that.
You know, if you look within my field, I'm known
as a bit of a flamethrower.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I think I've been on the side or right. When
I think something is kind of.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
A scam, I scream about it, and that's my interpretation.
Those I'm screaming at might not share that interpretation. But
I've always been kind of passionate, self confident to perhaps
the point of overconfidence. I've always mistakenly, possibly mistakenly, thought
I was funnier than I am. All that is a
(04:39):
recipe for someone who's going to tweet their opinions.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know, it's a dopamine hit, I admit that.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But also, if you do feel passionately about some things
I do about some things in the political arena, even
if it's a micro amount, if you feel that you
have any influence, that's quite a heady feeling, and it's
it almost starts to feel a little like a responsibility
to share what you're thinking. And I'm not saying I'm
sitting around altruistically all the time when I'm fighting with
someone on Twitter, thinking now I'm making the world a
(05:09):
better place. But the whole combination, you know, and it's
not just Twitter. I think I have eleven or some
odd op eds in the Wall Street Journal, some of
just financees, some get pretty political in commentary of in
the free press.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
I'm passionate about this stuff.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Most of the stuff I actually write about at least
overlaps with economics and finance. There's a lot in politics
that we all might be passionate about that that that,
you know, I don't think I have any special standing
to write about, but it is, particularly if there's any
overlap with economics or finance. I enjoy it, and you know, obviously,
(05:53):
like everyone else on Earth, I think I'm right that
it doesn't narrow it down.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
So I think I'm helping and I can't quite resist it.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
See you as a very moderate guy.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
It's funny that you you self describe as a flamethrower,
because I think of you as I mean you could
be sharp, you know, but you you take sort of
moderate normal positions.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
Well, like a typical article that I'd write that fulfills
both of these things would be like, there are two
sides making insane claims about what this willow will not
do for investors, and the answer is really in the middle,
and it's much mondier. So the actual article is what
you said the way I say it.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
I admit this.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
I fall in love with a good quipures, whether.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
It's mean or like.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Like I talk about private assets, and one of their
advantages that I think is unfair is they don't have
to tell you what the prices are right, And in finance,
you worry about this thing called volatility, how much your
investments move around. So I coined the phrase volatility laundering,
like they're found a way to hide the volatility that
(07:09):
has some unfairly negative implications. I do not think they're
committing a crime, for instance. Yeah, but once I one
of my major weaknesses is once I come up with
a phrase I think is pithy, it the chance I'm
gonna not say it is vanishingly small. So I think
(07:30):
you can square this circle. I can be harsh and
biting but I think my my actual opinions are are
usually not too not too extreme.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, not outside the mainstream for sure. Do you consider
yourself an optimist?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
No, there's a joke in my family.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
My wife claims she didn't quite say this, but I
believe your wife.
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Whatever it is, I believe your wife.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
But the joke is that she says, my glass is
in half empty or half full, it's bone dry, which
I though. One of my best friends and one of
my co founders of a q R, John lou tells
me that I talk like a pessimist, but I act
like an optimist starting affirm from leaving Goldman Sachs to
(08:19):
start a firm that may or may not work, believing
in what you do even when it's going through tough times.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And I think he may be right.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You know, at this point you grow up with a
lot of a cynical, sarcastic Jewish.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Humor that's always doom and gloom.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
That even I can't tell sometimes if I'm actually pessimist,
figure if I'm just used to.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Speaking that way.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
When my brother and I watch sports together, and if
we're not together, we're texting during the games, it's all pessimism.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
We could be up.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
I rout for the Yankees in baseball the Rangers in hockey.
Those are my two main sports. But all the New
York teams based.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Except a few, we'll text each other.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Like the Yankees were up ten to one yesterday, one
of I texted my brother, this ain't over and it's
supposed to be over. And I'm I'm cherry picking the
example because the game ended ten, right, which.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
Is not supposed to happen. The Yankees have a bullpen
problem this year.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
But at ten to one, you're pretty certain you're going
to win the game, right har You.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Know, you're you're protecting your emotions, so when they do lose, you're.
Speaker 5 (09:36):
Going to be like, well, I knew they were going
to lose, you know, and if they win, bonus.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
That is the strategy.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
And I've done it my whole life, and I continue
to do it, and I still think it's a failed strategy.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
I just can't get away from.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Because I don't think it actually produces the pain as
much as its supposed to.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
I don't think it does.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
I think when the bad thing happens, I still I
still feel it. So yeah, I've been doing it all wrong,
but you know it's it's gotten me pretty far, so
I'm probably gonna stick with it.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
What do you worry about?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Worry about these days? Give me categories? There are so
many things to worry about.
Speaker 5 (10:09):
It just whatever, whatever keeps you up.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
You said.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And I don't want to get too deep into politics,
but you can't look at our politics and not be frightened.
For a long time, I've been a self described kind
of center right libertarian leaning, and that makes you pretty
homeless these days. Politically, I am a big believer in
horseshoe theory, where you go left or right far enough
and you start looking like authoritarian socialists. And I don't
(10:34):
think either authoritarianism or socialism is moral or works.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
So that is a worry.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
I'm not, you know, to make what I said before
maybe a little bit of a lie. I'm not a
total pessimist on this, in that we've seen a lot
of things in this country that have then fixed themselves,
and I think it is important to remember that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, but I don't like where we are politically.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
I'm my libertarianism, I can say, through some worries, has
been tested a lot. I still would call myself a
libertarian but a much weaker one than maybe ten fifteen
years ago. You know, you can go anywhere all the
things we've legalized, drug, legalization, online gambling. In principle, I've
always been adults can do whatever the hell they want.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
Me too do.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, and I still ned out that way.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
But I'm a little I will admit to uncertainty, right, little.
I think it has been more negative of an impact
than I would have guessed, right, And so do I
feel a little queasier about that. Some of that might
be having four twenty something year old kids. And if
kids don't make you a little less libertarian, I can't fight.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Adults can do whatever they want, but not you kids,
not you adults.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yeah, because they're still kids, no matter how old they are. Yeah,
here's here's another one. AI.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Yeah, I bow to no one on making fun of
people I call Luod Heites for less forty years of
my life.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
You know, the idea that has been brought so many
times that productivity enhancing things is going to destroy the
world because it's gonna put everyone out of a job
has been wrong every single time.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
It's always made the productivity of workers.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
Maybe not this time, yes, maybe not this time, I
would not go so far as to predict disaster. There's
a difference between, you know, walking around with the sandwich
board around saying the world's gonna end yeah, versus saying
you're a little more worried than you ever thought you
would be.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Again, this might be having kids.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
When you have twenty something kids entering the workforce and
you're thinking, exactly what the hell are they going to do? Yeah,
that'll focus the mind, you know, long term, I'm a
techno optimist about these things. If it brings massive abundance
and prosperity with very little human work necessary, that's not
(13:01):
necessarily a terrible place to end up. But the transition
to that world where we all identify with work and
value work in.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
A sci fi kind of world, which you know, it's
less sci fi.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Every day, where we have great abundance without having to
work tremendously, we have to adjust to that.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You're not going to stop technology.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
So something I've always believed in that that work, you know,
is a wonderful principle to organize your life on.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
That might have to change.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
And the transition makes me pretty me pretty nervous, right,
even though I'm still thinking we're gonna end up in
a good.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Place, and the transitions like coming soon. It's it's not
something you know ten years out, twenty years out. It
seems like it's like two years out, five years out.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah, I mean I was an undergraduate computer science major
in the ninete It was the nineteen eight and involved
four trend so it's not exactly cutting edge AI. But
you know, I probably know a little bit more about
the stuff than the average person, and I'm cantinually like
even the experts. I think even the AI experts get
surprised at how fast everything has moved. I don't think
(14:06):
there are probably some who got a ride, of course
there's always some, but five ten years ago, I think
most people, even people who know a lot more than me,
would be surprised at how fast it's coming. And because
this technology builds upon itself, it helps build the next
version of itself, the speed just keeps accelerating. Yeah, the
(14:29):
life's going to be different in five years and very
different in twenty years more.
Speaker 5 (14:33):
Coming up with cliff fastness.
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The Carol Mark which show continues after this, So a.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Question I ask all of my guests, is what advice
would you give your sixteen year old self? And I
want you to answer that, but I also want to
know what advice do you give a sixteen year old today?
So if you could do both of those.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Sure, probably pretty similar for me.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I might tailor it a little bit, you know, start
thinking about how you're going to deal with hair loss.
When I was sixteen, I subscribe to the old wives
tale that it's your father, it's your mother's father, that
that determines this, and it is maybe correlated, but it's
far from this positive. And my mother's father unfortunately passed
(16:46):
away in his mid sixties, but with a full, beautiful
head of hair.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Like stalin, so I thought I was immune.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
You know, if I want to cheat, I might just
whisper the words in vidia.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
But that's probably that isn't fair. I find I am
going to try to answer the question.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
Carol, but I always have to be careful. I don't
often get questions like this, but I do. I speak
in public, and sometimes I get them. And a lot
of answers sound like platitudes to me, and even more
than a platitude, a lot of answers kind of ignore
trade offs. H I should have done more of this. Well,
to do more of this, yet you probably had to
(17:25):
do less of something. When I was young, I used
to read a ton in the back of a car.
It never bothered me to read in a car, which
is just a lucky life advantage if that doesn't bother you.
And my mom always used to say, you're never going
to know how to get anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
You're paying no attention.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
You have your just nose in a book, and many
years well, yeah, that's a separate thing. I love when
technology specifically fixes something I suck at. But years later
my mom would kind of gloat about this a little bit.
And my mom was a wonderful person, but she wasn't
above gloating about being right, because you know we're related and.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We both do that.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
She'd be like, I told you wouldn't know how to
get anywhere. We're all that reading. And I would be like,
and this is maybe this is a little arrogant, but
I'd be Mom, maybe the reading helped with something else, right.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
You can't just switch one off, yeah, and have the other.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
I do subscribe to the old cliche, which has been
if you look on the internet, has been claimed by
like the Internet is ruined quotes every quote I think
I knew is the Internet had some smart ass explaining
to me, No, it wasn't actually FDR who said that
fear itself thing.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Now I think he said that one.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
I think you did say that.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
Yeah, but you know, the old If I had known
i'd live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.
I would tell the sixteen year old me that you're
going to spend from the age of twenty five to
fifty five eating like crap and exercise very little because
you're obsessed with your job, and maybe use that as
(19:04):
an excuse.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Sometimes you're just tired.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I got religion about four or five years ago, and
I feel much better. Really, yeah, I do, But you
can't totally fix thirty.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Years of indolence.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
My sixteen year By the way, anything I'm gonna tell
my sixteen year old self, they're going to totally ignore.
Speaker 5 (19:23):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
So the other question involved here is how to actually
convince your sixteen year old self to do what you're saying.
Here's a weird one. If the circumstances are right. This
is certainly something I would never force try to have
kids earlier in life than you were thinking about. My
wife and I had kids in our mid to late pies,
(19:45):
and I would not trade these kids for anything in
the world. But I wish I was fifty at this
stage of their life instead of hitting sixty in a year.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
So, you know, that's a real hard thing for a
kid to think.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
About, Where will I be when my kid is ex
But again, with the benefit of hindsight, that maybe is
overly specific, but my back was already beginning to hurt
when my kids were fifteen and wanted to do something.
It would have been nice to have that front loaded
a little bit again.
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Career sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
And you got to find the right person.
Speaker 4 (20:19):
You know. I would certainly not sacrifice that, yes, just
to have it exactly the kids, But that might be
a substantive thing I tell my sixteen year old self
and tell my kids.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think my wife has told my kids.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
That, right. You know, advice that I probably wouldn't give
myself just didn't apply to me. But you know that
I might give a sixteen year old now, maybe even
a college age kid career advice. This one's also overly specific,
but I think a lot of kids chase the currently
(20:54):
hot job and I've seen a lot of we interview
a lot of people at top schools. Sometimes wear the
hot job. Sometimes it's a different field. Yeah, I think
you're always five to.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Ten years behind if you're chasing the hot job.
Speaker 4 (21:09):
If you're talented, you're going to be successful at something,
and it's not a disaster.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
But I'm not.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
Saying follow your bliss. When someone says follow their bliss,
I want to punch them in the face. My bliss
is punching people who say follow their bliss.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
And by the way, I am joking. I'm not one
of these.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
You know, punching in the face on the internet people.
There's no actual violence being advocated here. When choosing your career,
you're definitely allowed to think about, you know, what it
provides for you.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
But if you're always.
Speaker 4 (21:36):
Saying, wow, everyone wants to be a management consultant now,
so you know, a lot of top students are naturally competitive.
If that's the career everyone wants now, they want to
get the best one. And I'm not I'm not picking
on management consulting. I don't even know where they are
in the pecking order right now. But I'm saying a
lot of kids, particularly top performers chase what's hot at
(21:58):
the time, figuring out what they're very good at and
what they like the best subject to being a lucrative.
Speaker 2 (22:07):
Career that they can do well at.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I think they'd be better off not jumping on the bandwagon.
Speaker 5 (22:14):
It's the hottest job right now.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So that was a Pope Carie of weirdly disparaty.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
You enjoyed all of that. Actually, I think you are
super interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I could listen to the Cliff Asna's show every day
if you want to have that. I really enjoyed getting
to know you on here, and I just am so
glad you came on.
Speaker 5 (22:34):
Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Can I be sarcastic for sex?
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Be sarcastic?
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Spend spend less time thinking and researching how to improve
your life? You know, as an extreme example, don't ever
read about other people's morning routines. For God's sakes, post
your own their lies. You know everyone's morning route. As
I wake up at four am, I have just seen
(23:03):
I have six egg whites.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Yeah, and that's not what you're doing.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
No, I did very little planning and very little conscious improvement.
Find something you're passionate about, don't be afraid to be
obsessive about it. Don't plan on how you do things
optimally when you eventually do them, Just actually do something
you can balance, you know, life. Balance is wonderful and
overrated at the same time. You can balance your life
(23:33):
through time, but not at all times, meaning there are
times you could take it easier and pursue other things.
There are times you want to be an obsessive nut,
and there are times you really can't do both at once.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
The habit all.
Speaker 4 (23:50):
I don't think I ever quite had it all at
one time, you know, in a very personal sense. At
one point one of my co founders and I flowed down.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
At work.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
We delegated a lot of responsibility, partially because when you
have really great people, they have to grow so the
But you know, this maybe should have been a tip
in number two and not number three.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Going forward, we've changed that.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
We've gotten much more hands on, and I will be
until I retire.
Speaker 5 (24:17):
Really what made you change?
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I would say, do things well. It wasn't working very well.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
It was getting very bureaucratic, and and and and and sclerotic.
H John and John and I John Lewis, the fellow
i'm referring to as a co founder with mine along
with David Cabilla. We were still involved and still had
final say, and we had a whole firm trying to
get to consensus before coming to us. Yeah, and sometimes
(24:43):
it was six months of that and we didn't even realize.
When you have a leaner, smaller organization that you're very
involved with, you may not make every decision right, but
you make them fast and firm. And it's like military
tacticians say, you know, there's some quote, I'm going to
mangle it. A good plant secuted quickly is better than
a perfect plan. Yeah, and I think there's something that
(25:06):
that there's something to that. Do whatever you're doing full
speed until you don't do it, and then don't try
to do it half speed.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Let someone else move on.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Thank you so much. He is Cliff Asnaz. Check him
out on X.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
He's got really interesting perspective and I always enjoy following him.
Thank you Cliff for coming on.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
It's a lot of fun. Carol, thank you
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