September 2, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode, Karol welcomes Mary Katherine Ham, who shares her experiences of making friends as an adult and her career in the media industry. She discusses her departure from CNN, the importance of a flexible work schedule, and how she teaches resilience to her children. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on
the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio.
I think after the last few days, we need a
palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it.
Study after study shows a downward trend in the number
(00:21):
of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one
showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex
in the last year. A large study from two thousand
to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen
to thirty four reported having no sex or far less
frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young
(00:45):
adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no
sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know
California is weird, but still, I feel like in the
nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in
and now out. All of the comedies of that age
put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying
(01:07):
bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the
nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe.
I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in
later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I
literally mean people are not having sex, and this is
having a serious negative impact on our society. In November
(01:30):
of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The
Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously
pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have
been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police
on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by
a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas
(01:52):
all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote.
But it wasn't just that. We've been going through some
pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes are
also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only sounds
cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as a
(02:14):
pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune out
and go search up porn hub for something that makes sense.
Porn use, of course, is way up. People might not
want to have actual sex, but they're not giving up
their porn. It's a new world. Click click relief far
easier than making it work in the new normal, whatever
that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. End quote.
(02:39):
There's really something to that we used to accept without
too much introspection, what we found generally attractive for men. Yes,
the Victoria's Secret model type was what the majority of
men would turn to look at in the street. It
doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the ninety nine point
nine percent of us who don't look like these models,
(03:00):
but it was just acceptable to say these women are
beautiful and most men will find them attractive.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It was obvious.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
It was right around the time of that Spectator piece
that Victoria's Secret decided to change their whole guiding philosophy
around this. They announced and I wrote, that they'll be
phasing out They're impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, they'll
be going with leading icons and change makers, including the
soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Simpeo, the
(03:29):
plus size model Paloma Alsessor, and seventeen year old skier
Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie,
but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast,
So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to
be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie
(03:50):
to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex.
That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be
attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range
of what people like. But I really oppose the whole
what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women.
When the show mad Men was all the rage, women
(04:12):
loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man,
but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was
bad to his women. So there were all these hand
ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they
were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt
so bad about it. By the way, no man in
history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to.
(04:35):
Never ever. I was not attracted to Don Draper. He
seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact,
my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a
hot moment for that right now.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But he's like the protector.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, he's Israeli.
That's sulking. Don Draper guy really did nothing for me.
And I also didn't feel like there was anyone that
I was supposed to like or not supposed to like,
and so it lets me like who I like. But
so now it feels like men are getting that same
pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that helps
(05:15):
explain why sex is on the decline. We like what
we like and being made to feel bad about that
really doesn't work. We're not going to find some do
good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I say
that women have always gotten the advice to not be
attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think when
(05:39):
we see women not consider attraction in the guy that
they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of the
reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should marry
a man who's good to you, who's a good provider,
who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to
all of that, but he should also be a man
you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex
(06:01):
is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is
the most important part of a marriage, and it actually
makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other
things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and
of course, all of that matters. When I say most
important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important
thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter,
(06:21):
but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you
have is a friendship. One of the wild things I
discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator
piece is that there was a study conducted during the
pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and
had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy,
(06:45):
But I'll side note this by bringing it back to
my first episode, where my monologue was in favor of marriage,
that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring
this message to college kids all the time. It's a
lie that marriage is the end of a sex life.
In a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning.
So what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the
(07:07):
point sex is good. One of my favorite things to
hit is that we have to point things out, even
if it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful,
look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and
it's just a good time. So you know, go do
it right now or after this show is over. Coming
(07:29):
up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us
after the break. I would say that when I was
thinking about guests that I would have in the future,
and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one
of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes
going to be enough because I have a lot of
(07:50):
things I want to cover with her, but we'll do
our best to get to everything. And it's so nice
to have you, Mary Catherine.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So the overall theme of this show is going to
be how to be happier, how to improve your life,
but also how to do things like find the right
relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I
love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're
such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things
that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the
(08:19):
Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it
was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making
Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious
and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I
also I confused that piece with the interaction the time
that your daughter peed on a potential friend. Separate story.
(08:42):
It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so,
how is.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Adult potty training comes with certain challenges?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how
is the adult friend making going growing up actually making?
Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, yes, I did.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think in that piece I suggested that there should
be basically tender for moms and I.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get a
lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So, and I should say, also, just to exonerate my
poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I took her
to a park and she said, no, Mom, I definitely
don't need a diaper today.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I am good to go. And I was like, great,
that sounds awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
And when we got in the car, she told me
I peed at the park and that little girl yelled
at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she
was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it
turns out that what happened was the girl was standing
under her on the play structure when this happened. So
still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't
(09:52):
ever get in touch with that mom again. But anyway,
so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making
is pretty good. It's it's an interesting quoest because I think,
when you have kids, you wonder, do I need to
make a completely different set of friends who also have
kids and are dealing with the same phase of life
that I'm in, Or can I import my old friends
(10:14):
who are also moms now, which is kind of That's
a lot of what I've done. I have several in
the area who we were friends before we were moms,
one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which
is a huge part of making those kinds of friends,
and so I do a.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Little bit of that.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived
in in the DC area, I have had really good
friends nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles.
On the corner I lived in before I moved here,
when I was a single mom, there were two sec
fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn,
(10:55):
but look, you deal with what you deal with when
you come to another place, and they had you know,
they understood me and the football and had rough and
tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together
obviously in my life, and so I was able to
make friends there. And then I moved and I moved
close to an army base, and now I have my
(11:16):
army mom friends and they are fantastic.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That sounds really good. Does it being a public person
hinder that or help it?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly
because I actually one thing I do in an attempt
to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity
is that I don't engage with their social media until
after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's
not the first place I want to go. Much like
(11:48):
your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're
going there is more than like you're just going to
end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm
interested in doing. So there are several friends I have
whom if I had seen their social media first, I
would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be
that I might not like them. And it turns out
(12:09):
that social media can just put a different tinge on things.
Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do.
And you know, it could just look very different for
different people, and it can look very different from their
real life persona. And so I want to get to
know the real life person and then we can delve
into that later.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
With me.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
That sometimes becomes impossible if someone you know, clocks me
as a public person first. But it hasn't caused a
ton of.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Problems, right, So, You've had a really amazing career. I've
you know, I feel like I've been along for the
ride for a lot of it. And you were most
recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you
say that.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed
to get some shots in.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can you tell listeners what happened?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until this spring.
Before that, I was at Fox. I actually enjoyed very
much being at CNN. I went over there with the
intention of being the weirdo on the set, being the
person who says the thing that other people don't say. Now,
at that time, I think this is in the very
this is in the earlier Zucker years. It's as Trump
(13:24):
is headed toward the nomination, but We didn't know that
at the time, and I felt like it was a
pretty nice place to be and did responsible work and
had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators on mostly every
panel I was on, and I enjoyed that very much.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
By the way, well, that was meeting on the left,
you know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do
felt I feel like it really took a turn and
that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing
match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news
coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the
(14:07):
more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're
gonna get.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And it was very.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Obvious, and it was obvious to me that I wasn't
doing the right things to get the airtime. Now that
does not mean that certain journalists didn't put me on
the air. I was on Tapper Show a lot. There
were people who made an effort to get me out there.
John Berman is another one who was fun to be
on with. But in general, institutionally I was not doing
what needed to be done right in the eyes of management.
(14:36):
So my career sort of like tailed off in that way.
Then we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and
twenty two, I'm off air for months and months and
months and months.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like,
am I.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
So sad about that? I'm not so sad about it?
But I am employed by this place, and what's happening?
So I started asking questions and I can't figure out
what's happening, Like why am I never on? I'm pitching columns, nothing,
nothing's working. And finally, after Chris Lick joins for his
short short tenure at CNN, I get a call from
somebody in management or HR who explains to me what happened.
(15:12):
And here's what happened is that I was put on
the bench, suspended without my knowledge. Everyone told Zucker, told
the shows not to use me because I had tweeted
criticism of Jeffrey Tuban.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
That is yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his
capacity as at another job, had been caught on a
zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN.
As a result of this interaction, he was benched and
then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview
(15:54):
by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I
wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing
him versus how long he was punished? And the answer
is he was off air for eight months and I
was off air for seven months.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Right, So that's the price for me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Saying, get to show anybody anything you know?
Speaker 3 (16:17):
No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I
really I could have had only fans and a career
and I just had a political commentary career.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
But no, it's just so, it's so deeply unfair.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Part of it was that the context of the conversation
that I was having on Twitter was one where I
was critical of media coverage, including CNN of the congressional
baseball shooting that rubs people the wrong way. But I
felt like it needed to be said, and I should
not have used that phrase that I just used, but
right that that conversation included this tweet about two but
(16:49):
and apparently that was that was a bridge too far, guys.
And so I wasn't ever fired or let go or
laid off. I was asked to come back, and I
was I to come back with a smile on my
face and just move on. And I did not feel
like I could do that, and so I wrote a
piece about what actually happened, right, So then I left
(17:09):
like six months later.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this,
they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something
like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from
a company like that that they benched you, you know,
I mean in the era following me to the idea
that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing
(17:32):
yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not
the best way to go, and yet you were punished
for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them?
Will there be?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made
me happy was that it would be public. And I
knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have
a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that
that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as
a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They
have every right not to put me on air. That
(18:04):
was a very bad reason to not put me on air,
But they can do that because I was not a
full time employee. If I had been a full time employee,
different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and
to the HR person that I spoke to, was during
the era of Me Too, when I was on air,
I was asked to comment on every errant penis in
(18:25):
the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and
over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea
that this was the one I was not allowed to
talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting
this one and still talking about all of these.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically
aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a
liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left,
do you think the same thing would have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I think I hit like a double whammy here, which
is a woman on the right, Like.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
There was a boys club involved, Tuban was part of it.
I was not. I also wasn't part of the ideological club.
So it's just too.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
It was two strikes against me, and everyone's like, well,
how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions,
her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested, unfortunately
in half the country. And again, I just think it
makes it easier to punish someone like me because the
(19:40):
CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that
I'm not there, right, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I
expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the
things too. And this is just sort of not everything.
The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue,
a you know, whatever the ism is of the day,
and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and
people are self interested in general, and so if you're
(20:15):
asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage,
that requires putting next out. And in the TV and
media business and politics, shall we say, that is less
likely to occur even than other areas.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think
you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in
your career?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Because making it for me looks different than it does
for other people. And this is something again I think
our friends on the left do not allow for is
that I chose this career path, and despite speed bumps
that we were just talking about, I chose it because
I have a flexible schedule. I can and hang out
with my kids. I can be there after school for
(21:02):
my kids if I want to, and spend a lot
of time with family in flexible ways.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's what I wanted to do. I often gave up
pay to make that happen.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I never wanted to host my own TV show. This
was not I'm not driven by the news cycle enough
in the way that one must be to anchor an
entire show that way. And I think that that makes
me happier and makes me better at reading what the
(21:34):
national mood actually is because most people are not driven
by the news cycle in the same way that we
have to be, and so I just don't get a
charge out of that enough to have been like the
head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm at
peace with that. I get to talk about things that
(21:56):
I like to talk about. I get to have a
little bit of an impact. I get to model being
the weirdo in the room for my kids and critical
thinking and all those things that I attempt to model
and sometimes courage sticking up for yourself and that's what
I want to do. That's the more important part of
a career for me than hitting whatever the C suite
(22:19):
goal is.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Right, So, you have four kids, You had a tragedy
happened in your life where you lost your first husband
in an accident, and it's recently you passed. Forgot how
many years it was, but you wrote a really beautiful
piece about the normalcy that existed before. You've also written
(22:40):
a lot about resilience, which I just love and think
that it's so important to teach resilience in model resilience,
and you've always just been to me like somebody who's
extremely strong, but real and honest and not pretend. So
how do you show your kids resiliency?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What what's some Mary Catherine Ham tips on showing your
kids how to be resilient?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Well, first off, I would say that I would just
like to note the fact that when we met and
were drinking cocktails in Manhattan, when we used to hang out,
the idea that if you had told us that between
us we'd have seven kids.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Now, yeah, I'm not bringing up most of them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I mean you have you know, you have the majority
here yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Not sure we would have bought that. We both didn't.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Want to get married, you know, Loos.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It was a different time time, But yeah, I think. Look,
I think my kids aren't going to for a long
time understand what was happening to me during that time.
And I don't want them to write I wanted them.
I wanted to sort of get through that giving them
(23:52):
as little of my trauma as possible. And that is
something I think people have really lost sight of, which
is that you are supposed to stand in the breach
for your kids.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
They are not your emotional crutch.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yes, I want to have an open relationship with them,
and we work on communicating and all that, but there
are things that they are not called to deal with,
and in this particular case, especially, they were too young
to have trauma from this loss. One was my toddler
was two and barely verbal, and my young second was unborn.
(24:29):
I was seven months pregnant, so I knew that was
very helpful to me by the way, being pregnant, because
I knew I had to sort of keep it between
the navigational beacons to get this kid born safely, and
that that was my first priority.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
And then parenting led me to do the same thing.
This is my priority.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
It doesn't mean I neglect myself, but it does mean
that I'm really careful about the ways that I lean
on them and the ways that I try to get
through life. So I know I need to put that
baggage now do I hope someday that they understand it
a little bit, sure, But to me, the more important
(25:10):
thing is the day to day resilience in them, having
seen all of us as a family just get up
every day and do what we need to do. One
of the things I did in the very early days
because I there were times, as there are for anybody
who's going through something big, where you can't put together
an entire day, maybe you can't even put together half
a day.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But the thing that I.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Did was I made sure that I got up and
gave my kids breakfast every morning. And to me, that
was a very material It was often a hot breakfast.
I was like, look at me, I'm killing it. Guys,
I don't do that, but it's your own cereal, yes,
own milk. It felt very concrete that I was doing
the right thing by them if I could get that done,
(25:52):
and then they go to nap, and then I the.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Rest of the day's a waste. The rest of the
day's a waste.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Right, So I think seeing maybe learning some of those tools,
watching me do some of that over the years, I
hope translates. The other thing I think during COVID and
other times that have been scary, is just to be
rational about my concerns and to communicate those concerns rationally.
(26:16):
You know, when COVID came around, we weren't quite sure
what it looked like, but we did know that it
was not as dangerous to young people, and it wasn't
as dangerous to mom and dad, who are healthy and
in their forties, and so I made sure that they
knew that, and I told them we're also going to
be like a little bit more careful about the grandparents,
but it doesn't mean we're going to never talk to them,
(26:38):
which is apparently what some people did. I think, Yeah,
keeping your head about you in those times is really
important for kids, and then hopefully when they're adults, they
will also stand in the breach for their kids.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Because it's really I really feel like a lot of
people lost sight of that.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think the last few years have just
been people kind of cover bring up there already, you know,
previously held opinions with these new neurosis, like the grandparents,
Like how many people took the opportunity to never see
their in laws because they really trying to protect you
from the COVID, you know, like can't take any chances.
(27:17):
So I think that and people who wanted to work
from home or people who wanted to stay home all
the time and didn't want to go out kind of
used all of that as an excuse as well. So
to wrap up, I like to ask my guests to
end with the best tip for listeners on how they
can improve their lives. What do you think?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Okay, so I'm going to give two, even though that's
like a very pundity thing to do, but they're both.
They're both fairly practical and small. So the first one
is whenever things are going off, like feel like they
might be going off the rails for me, and this
included after Jake died.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Sometimes life is literally.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Just about putting one foot in front of the other,
and if you can physically do that by taking a walk,
it will get you in a better place. Being outside
is good for you. Walking is good for you doing it.
This is awful important stuff. Yeah, you just literally touch grass.
And I did that in the days after Jake died.
(28:20):
I made sure I got outside every day, and of
course I was pregnant at the time. But drink more
water than wine is also a good rule of them.
But the second one is and I tweeted about this recently,
and I think it's a fairly simple fix for a
lot of people who might be in a bad place
when it comes to parenting. There's so much drama around parenting,
and it's a hard job, but it's also a beautiful
(28:43):
job and a fun job. And if you can surround
yourself with parents who really enjoy their children and don't
dwell on the drama and the hard parts as much
as they do the parts that they enjoy, for instance,
getting off maybe the Facebook mom group, which can be
almost inevitably toxic, and putting yourself with a group chat
(29:06):
of maybe some moms who look we all have struggles,
but we're also focusing on how much we actually enjoy
our families. That who you surround yourself with is going
to make a huge difference. And I try very hard
to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who, although
they have struggles, are not focusing on that one hundred
percent of the time.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love that. I really do think that your mood
is so often decided by who you're surrounded by, and
if you're around miserable people who hate their kids or
hate their lives, it's going to rub off on you.
So that's really excellent advice. Well, thank you so much,
Mary Catherine, you are amazing. Subscribe to her substack and
listen to her amazing podcast Getting Hammered. I listen all
(29:49):
the time. Thank you so much for being on.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Thank you so much. Excited to be here. You make
it easy, Carol, everybody listen all the time. This is great.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitch Show.
Subscribe where every you get your podcasts.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on
the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio.
I think after the last few days, we need a
palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it.
Study after study shows a downward trend in the number
(00:21):
of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one
showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex
in the last year. A large study from two thousand
to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen
to thirty four reported having no sex or far less
frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young
(00:45):
adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no
sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know
California is weird, but still, I feel like in the
nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in
and now out. All of the comedies of that age
put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying
(01:07):
bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the
nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe.
I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in
later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I
literally mean people are not having sex, and this is
having a serious negative impact on our society. In November
(01:30):
of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The
Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously
pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have
been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police
on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by
a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas
(01:52):
all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote.
But it wasn't just that. We've been going through some
pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes are
also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only sounds
cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as a
(02:14):
pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune out
and go search up porn hub for something that makes sense.
Porn use, of course, is way up. People might not
want to have actual sex, but they're not giving up
their porn. It's a new world. Click click relief far
easier than making it work in the new normal, whatever
that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. End quote.
(02:39):
There's really something to that we used to accept without
too much introspection, what we found generally attractive for men. Yes,
the Victoria's Secret model type was what the majority of
men would turn to look at in the street. It
doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the ninety nine point
nine percent of us who don't look like these models,
(03:00):
but it was just acceptable to say these women are
beautiful and most men will find them attractive.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It was obvious.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
It was right around the time of that Spectator piece
that Victoria's Secret decided to change their whole guiding philosophy
around this. They announced and I wrote, that they'll be
phasing out They're impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, they'll
be going with leading icons and change makers, including the
soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Simpeo, the
(03:29):
plus size model Paloma Alsessor, and seventeen year old skier
Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie,
but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast,
So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to
be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie
(03:50):
to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex.
That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be
attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range
of what people like. But I really oppose the whole
what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women.
When the show mad Men was all the rage, women
(04:12):
loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man,
but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was
bad to his women. So there were all these hand
ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they
were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt
so bad about it. By the way, no man in
history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to.
(04:35):
Never ever. I was not attracted to Don Draper. He
seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact,
my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a
hot moment for that right now.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But he's like the protector.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, he's Israeli.
That's sulking. Don Draper guy really did nothing for me.
And I also didn't feel like there was anyone that
I was supposed to like or not supposed to like,
and so it lets me like who I like. But
so now it feels like men are getting that same
pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that helps
(05:15):
explain why sex is on the decline. We like what
we like and being made to feel bad about that
really doesn't work. We're not going to find some do
good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I say
that women have always gotten the advice to not be
attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think when
(05:39):
we see women not consider attraction in the guy that
they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of the
reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should marry
a man who's good to you, who's a good provider,
who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to
all of that, but he should also be a man
you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex
(06:01):
is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is
the most important part of a marriage, and it actually
makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other
things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and
of course, all of that matters. When I say most
important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important
thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter,
(06:21):
but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you
have is a friendship. One of the wild things I
discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator
piece is that there was a study conducted during the
pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and
had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy,
(06:45):
But I'll side note this by bringing it back to
my first episode, where my monologue was in favor of marriage,
that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring
this message to college kids all the time. It's a
lie that marriage is the end of a sex life.
In a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning.
So what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the
(07:07):
point sex is good. One of my favorite things to
hit is that we have to point things out, even
if it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful,
look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and
it's just a good time. So you know, go do
it right now or after this show is over. Coming
(07:29):
up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us
after the break. I would say that when I was
thinking about guests that I would have in the future,
and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one
of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes
going to be enough because I have a lot of
(07:50):
things I want to cover with her, but we'll do
our best to get to everything. And it's so nice
to have you, Mary Catherine.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
So the overall theme of this show is going to
be how to be happier, how to improve your life,
but also how to do things like find the right
relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I
love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're
such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things
that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the
(08:19):
Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it
was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making
Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious
and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I
also I confused that piece with the interaction the time
that your daughter peed on a potential friend. Separate story.
(08:42):
It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so,
how is.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Adult potty training comes with certain challenges?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how
is the adult friend making going growing up actually making?
Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yes, yes, I did.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
I think in that piece I suggested that there should
be basically tender for moms and I.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get a
lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what I mean.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
So, and I should say, also, just to exonerate my
poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I took her
to a park and she said, no, Mom, I definitely
don't need a diaper today.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I am good to go. And I was like, great,
that sounds awesome.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
And when we got in the car, she told me
I peed at the park and that little girl yelled
at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she
was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it
turns out that what happened was the girl was standing
under her on the play structure when this happened. So
still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't
(09:52):
ever get in touch with that mom again. But anyway,
so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making
is pretty good. It's it's an interesting quoest because I think,
when you have kids, you wonder, do I need to
make a completely different set of friends who also have
kids and are dealing with the same phase of life
that I'm in, Or can I import my old friends
(10:14):
who are also moms now, which is kind of That's
a lot of what I've done. I have several in
the area who we were friends before we were moms,
one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which
is a huge part of making those kinds of friends,
and so I do a.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Little bit of that.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
I also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived
in in the DC area, I have had really good
friends nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles.
On the corner I lived in before I moved here,
when I was a single mom, there were two sec
fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn,
(10:55):
but look, you deal with what you deal with when
you come to another place, and they had you know,
they understood me and the football and had rough and
tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together
obviously in my life, and so I was able to
make friends there. And then I moved and I moved
close to an army base, and now I have my
(11:16):
army mom friends and they are fantastic.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
That sounds really good. Does it being a public person
hinder that or help it?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly
because I actually one thing I do in an attempt
to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity
is that I don't engage with their social media until
after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's
not the first place I want to go. Much like
(11:48):
your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're
going there is more than like you're just going to
end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm
interested in doing. So there are several friends I have
whom if I had seen their social media first, I
would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be
that I might not like them. And it turns out
(12:09):
that social media can just put a different tinge on things.
Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do.
And you know, it could just look very different for
different people, and it can look very different from their
real life persona. And so I want to get to
know the real life person and then we can delve
into that later.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
With me.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
That sometimes becomes impossible if someone you know, clocks me
as a public person first. But it hasn't caused a
ton of.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Problems, right, So, You've had a really amazing career. I've
you know, I feel like I've been along for the
ride for a lot of it. And you were most
recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you
say that.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed
to get some shots in.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can you tell listeners what happened?
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until this spring.
Before that, I was at Fox. I actually enjoyed very
much being at CNN. I went over there with the
intention of being the weirdo on the set, being the
person who says the thing that other people don't say. Now,
at that time, I think this is in the very
this is in the earlier Zucker years. It's as Trump
(13:24):
is headed toward the nomination, but We didn't know that
at the time, and I felt like it was a
pretty nice place to be and did responsible work and
had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators on mostly every
panel I was on, and I enjoyed that very much.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
By the way, well, that was meeting on the left,
you know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do
felt I feel like it really took a turn and
that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing
match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news
coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the
(14:07):
more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're
gonna get.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
And it was very.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
Obvious, and it was obvious to me that I wasn't
doing the right things to get the airtime. Now that
does not mean that certain journalists didn't put me on
the air. I was on Tapper Show a lot. There
were people who made an effort to get me out there.
John Berman is another one who was fun to be
on with. But in general, institutionally I was not doing
what needed to be done right in the eyes of management.
(14:36):
So my career sort of like tailed off in that way.
Then we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and
twenty two, I'm off air for months and months and
months and months.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like,
am I.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
So sad about that? I'm not so sad about it?
But I am employed by this place, and what's happening?
So I started asking questions and I can't figure out
what's happening, Like why am I never on? I'm pitching columns, nothing,
nothing's working. And finally, after Chris Lick joins for his
short short tenure at CNN, I get a call from
somebody in management or HR who explains to me what happened.
(15:12):
And here's what happened is that I was put on
the bench, suspended without my knowledge. Everyone told Zucker, told
the shows not to use me because I had tweeted
criticism of Jeffrey Tuban.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
That is yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his
capacity as at another job, had been caught on a
zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN.
As a result of this interaction, he was benched and
then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview
(15:54):
by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I
wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing
him versus how long he was punished? And the answer
is he was off air for eight months and I
was off air for seven months.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Right, So that's the price for me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Saying, get to show anybody anything you know?
Speaker 3 (16:17):
No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I
really I could have had only fans and a career
and I just had a political commentary career.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
But no, it's just so, it's so deeply unfair.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
Part of it was that the context of the conversation
that I was having on Twitter was one where I
was critical of media coverage, including CNN of the congressional
baseball shooting that rubs people the wrong way. But I
felt like it needed to be said, and I should
not have used that phrase that I just used, but
right that that conversation included this tweet about two but
(16:49):
and apparently that was that was a bridge too far, guys.
And so I wasn't ever fired or let go or
laid off. I was asked to come back, and I
was I to come back with a smile on my
face and just move on. And I did not feel
like I could do that, and so I wrote a
piece about what actually happened, right, So then I left
(17:09):
like six months later.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this,
they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something
like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from
a company like that that they benched you, you know,
I mean in the era following me to the idea
that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing
(17:32):
yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not
the best way to go, and yet you were punished
for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them?
Will there be?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made
me happy was that it would be public. And I
knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have
a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that
that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as
a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They
have every right not to put me on air. That
(18:04):
was a very bad reason to not put me on air,
But they can do that because I was not a
full time employee. If I had been a full time employee,
different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and
to the HR person that I spoke to, was during
the era of Me Too, when I was on air,
I was asked to comment on every errant penis in
(18:25):
the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and
over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea
that this was the one I was not allowed to
talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting
this one and still talking about all of these.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically
aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a
liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left,
do you think the same thing would have happened. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I think I hit like a double whammy here, which
is a woman on the right, Like.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
There was a boys club involved, Tuban was part of it.
I was not. I also wasn't part of the ideological club.
So it's just too.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
It was two strikes against me, and everyone's like, well,
how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions,
her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested, unfortunately
in half the country. And again, I just think it
makes it easier to punish someone like me because the
(19:40):
CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that
I'm not there, right, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I
expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the
things too. And this is just sort of not everything.
The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue,
a you know, whatever the ism is of the day,
and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and
people are self interested in general, and so if you're
(20:15):
asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage,
that requires putting next out. And in the TV and
media business and politics, shall we say, that is less
likely to occur even than other areas.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think
you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in
your career?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Because making it for me looks different than it does
for other people. And this is something again I think
our friends on the left do not allow for is
that I chose this career path, and despite speed bumps
that we were just talking about, I chose it because
I have a flexible schedule. I can and hang out
with my kids. I can be there after school for
(21:02):
my kids if I want to, and spend a lot
of time with family in flexible ways.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
That's what I wanted to do. I often gave up
pay to make that happen.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I never wanted to host my own TV show. This
was not I'm not driven by the news cycle enough
in the way that one must be to anchor an
entire show that way. And I think that that makes
me happier and makes me better at reading what the
(21:34):
national mood actually is because most people are not driven
by the news cycle in the same way that we
have to be, and so I just don't get a
charge out of that enough to have been like the
head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm at
peace with that. I get to talk about things that
(21:56):
I like to talk about. I get to have a
little bit of an impact. I get to model being
the weirdo in the room for my kids and critical
thinking and all those things that I attempt to model
and sometimes courage sticking up for yourself and that's what
I want to do. That's the more important part of
a career for me than hitting whatever the C suite
(22:19):
goal is.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Right, So, you have four kids, You had a tragedy
happened in your life where you lost your first husband
in an accident, and it's recently you passed. Forgot how
many years it was, but you wrote a really beautiful
piece about the normalcy that existed before. You've also written
(22:40):
a lot about resilience, which I just love and think
that it's so important to teach resilience in model resilience,
and you've always just been to me like somebody who's
extremely strong, but real and honest and not pretend. So
how do you show your kids resiliency?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What what's some Mary Catherine Ham tips on showing your
kids how to be resilient?
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Well, first off, I would say that I would just
like to note the fact that when we met and
were drinking cocktails in Manhattan, when we used to hang out,
the idea that if you had told us that between
us we'd have seven kids.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Now, yeah, I'm not bringing up most of them.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
I mean you have you know, you have the majority
here yeah, I'm.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Not sure we would have bought that. We both didn't.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Want to get married, you know, Loos.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
It was a different time time, But yeah, I think. Look,
I think my kids aren't going to for a long
time understand what was happening to me during that time.
And I don't want them to write I wanted them.
I wanted to sort of get through that giving them
(23:52):
as little of my trauma as possible. And that is
something I think people have really lost sight of, which
is that you are supposed to stand in the breach
for your kids.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
They are not your emotional crutch.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Yes, I want to have an open relationship with them,
and we work on communicating and all that, but there
are things that they are not called to deal with,
and in this particular case, especially, they were too young
to have trauma from this loss. One was my toddler
was two and barely verbal, and my young second was unborn.
(24:29):
I was seven months pregnant, so I knew that was
very helpful to me by the way, being pregnant, because
I knew I had to sort of keep it between
the navigational beacons to get this kid born safely, and
that that was my first priority.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
And then parenting led me to do the same thing.
This is my priority.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
It doesn't mean I neglect myself, but it does mean
that I'm really careful about the ways that I lean
on them and the ways that I try to get
through life. So I know I need to put that
baggage now do I hope someday that they understand it
a little bit, sure, But to me, the more important
(25:10):
thing is the day to day resilience in them, having
seen all of us as a family just get up
every day and do what we need to do. One
of the things I did in the very early days
because I there were times, as there are for anybody
who's going through something big, where you can't put together
an entire day, maybe you can't even put together half
a day.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
But the thing that I.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Did was I made sure that I got up and
gave my kids breakfast every morning. And to me, that
was a very material It was often a hot breakfast.
I was like, look at me, I'm killing it. Guys,
I don't do that, but it's your own cereal, yes,
own milk. It felt very concrete that I was doing
the right thing by them if I could get that done,
(25:52):
and then they go to nap, and then I the.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Rest of the day's a waste. The rest of the
day's a waste.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
Right, So I think seeing maybe learning some of those tools,
watching me do some of that over the years, I
hope translates. The other thing I think during COVID and
other times that have been scary, is just to be
rational about my concerns and to communicate those concerns rationally.
(26:16):
You know, when COVID came around, we weren't quite sure
what it looked like, but we did know that it
was not as dangerous to young people, and it wasn't
as dangerous to mom and dad, who are healthy and
in their forties, and so I made sure that they
knew that, and I told them we're also going to
be like a little bit more careful about the grandparents,
but it doesn't mean we're going to never talk to them,
(26:38):
which is apparently what some people did. I think, Yeah,
keeping your head about you in those times is really
important for kids, and then hopefully when they're adults, they
will also stand in the breach for their kids.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Because it's really I really feel like a lot of
people lost sight of that.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah. Absolutely, I think the last few years have just
been people kind of cover bring up there already, you know,
previously held opinions with these new neurosis, like the grandparents,
Like how many people took the opportunity to never see
their in laws because they really trying to protect you
from the COVID, you know, like can't take any chances.
(27:17):
So I think that and people who wanted to work
from home or people who wanted to stay home all
the time and didn't want to go out kind of
used all of that as an excuse as well. So
to wrap up, I like to ask my guests to
end with the best tip for listeners on how they
can improve their lives. What do you think?
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Okay, so I'm going to give two, even though that's
like a very pundity thing to do, but they're both.
They're both fairly practical and small. So the first one
is whenever things are going off, like feel like they
might be going off the rails for me, and this
included after Jake died.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Sometimes life is literally.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Just about putting one foot in front of the other,
and if you can physically do that by taking a walk,
it will get you in a better place. Being outside
is good for you. Walking is good for you doing it.
This is awful important stuff. Yeah, you just literally touch grass.
And I did that in the days after Jake died.
(28:20):
I made sure I got outside every day, and of
course I was pregnant at the time. But drink more
water than wine is also a good rule of them.
But the second one is and I tweeted about this recently,
and I think it's a fairly simple fix for a
lot of people who might be in a bad place
when it comes to parenting. There's so much drama around parenting,
and it's a hard job, but it's also a beautiful
(28:43):
job and a fun job. And if you can surround
yourself with parents who really enjoy their children and don't
dwell on the drama and the hard parts as much
as they do the parts that they enjoy, for instance,
getting off maybe the Facebook mom group, which can be
almost inevitably toxic, and putting yourself with a group chat
(29:06):
of maybe some moms who look we all have struggles,
but we're also focusing on how much we actually enjoy
our families. That who you surround yourself with is going
to make a huge difference. And I try very hard
to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who, although
they have struggles, are not focusing on that one hundred
percent of the time.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
I love that. I really do think that your mood
is so often decided by who you're surrounded by, and
if you're around miserable people who hate their kids or
hate their lives, it's going to rub off on you.
So that's really excellent advice. Well, thank you so much,
Mary Catherine, you are amazing. Subscribe to her substack and
listen to her amazing podcast Getting Hammered. I listen all
(29:49):
the time. Thank you so much for being on.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Thank you so much. Excited to be here. You make
it easy, Carol, everybody listen all the time. This is great.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitch Show.
Subscribe where every you get your podcasts.
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