In this episode, evolutionary biologist Colin Wright joins the show to explore the clash between biological science and modern gender ideology. He shares his experiences working at a think tank, navigating academic censorship, and challenging politically driven narratives about sex and gender. Colin also discusses the societal impact of redefining gender, the role of AI in shaping public discourse, and the growing push to restore traditional values and truth in politics. The Karol Markowicz Show is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Wednesday & Friday.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitch Show on Iheartdio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
My guest today is Colin Wright. Colin is an.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Evolutionary biologist and a fellow at Manhattan Institute.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
So nice to have you on, Colin.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So are there many evolutionary biologists at think tanks or
are you the whole ball game?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
That's a good question. I might be one of the
one of, not the first ones that I know of.
So I started working at the Manhattan Institute three years ago,
two and a half. Actually I do know that my
friend Carol Hooven, who's also an evolutionary billotist, she just
got a job at the American Enterprise Institute.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay, so there's two of you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, so there's at least two of us. But yeah,
that's actually interesting. I don't think I don't think we
really played a role in think tanks until there is
no use for our services outside of a universities setting. Yeah,
that's actually that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, what's the crossover there?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What brought you to Manhattan Institute? How does an evolutionary
biologist end up at a think tank?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's a good question. So we're both employed by our
respective think tanks because of our outspokenness writing and clarifying
the nature of I guess the sex and gender debate
is how I might express that more broadly. So I became,
(01:31):
I guess known for articles about why there's only two
sexes and humans and mammals and why you can't change sex.
And these might seem like esoteric topics and why do
we care about that? But it's really relevant for things
like pediatric gender care ideology surrounding that of you know,
telling kids you can be maybe born in the wrong
(01:51):
body and we can change your sex with hormones and
surgeries and those things, because it's literally what they believe
in is like the justification for these procede is that
sex is just like this array of different characteristics and
they can all be sort of modified and moved. So
we just try to provide clarifying, I guess, a way
to think about this issue and the biology, and just
(02:12):
to make sure people can actually have informed, you know,
ideas behind their decisions they're trying to make for their lives.
You know, Ultimately I support people willing to transition with
their adults, but I just don't want people to be
lied to about biology, and so it's making sure that
people just have all the information that's there because there's
a lot of distortions.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
It's funny because you would think all evolutionary biologists would
be on that side.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But that's not the case, right.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
It is not the case, which is really puzzling because
I mean, I know a lot of the biologists. I
know what they're studying. I know that they study, at
least in my field when I studied animal behavior, and
so many of them study sex differences in behavior because
it's like the most most pronounced difference in behavior. You'll
usually see what the species is between males and females.
(03:01):
And that's how I had such a fundamental understanding of
what the universal and fundamental distinction between males and females were.
And I know all my colleagues understand that as well,
but through political reasons and social reasons, you know, they
just sort of either just don't say anything about it,
or they just they kind of ignore, or they just
(03:22):
go along with sort of the activist line. It's it's
really bizarre. I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Did you have pressure to go along with that activist line.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
As well, oh, it was immense pressure, for sure. I
think I first started hearing about people making weird claims
about the biology of sex. I think I was on
Facebook probably in like twenty fifteen or sixteen, when people
were sending like there was a Nature article called sex Redefined,
and there's a subtitles like how the biology of male
(03:51):
and female or the sex binaries overleased simplistic, you know.
Before I heard about little bits in like the New
York Times and just on activist blogs, but that was
really put into you know, a Nature magazine. This is
like the biggest, most prestigious scientific journal, and so that's
you know, that's kind of when I first started seeing
it and decided to push back against that stuff. And
(04:12):
there was I noticed that when I was speaking about
that issue, unlike any other topic in the sciences, you know,
if we're talking about I studied social spiders and insects.
If I were to make a claim about insects that
my colleagues thatt were wrong, it would just be like, oh, no,
have you read this paper, just see this if you
you know how about these ideas, you know, there would
be no social shaming involved. But when I say I
(04:35):
think there's only two sexes because of the things about
gam meets and it was just immediate, like condemnation, you're
a horrible person. So that to me, that was a
signal like there's something under theood here that like is
way different than any other issue.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, did you always want to be a biologist?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I knew I wanted to be like a scientist from
a young age. I was really I thought I might
go you like the Astronomy round. I was like a
huge Carl Sagan fan all the Cosmos series. I was
just like obsessed with it. Yeah, but he had I
loved his episodes that he did on the biology and
evolution as well. But then I started reading a lot
(05:15):
of biologists and evolutionary biologists like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Gould.
It just totally captivated me. It was more like philosophical
and nature. I mean, astronomy can be philosophical too, with
like place in the universe and the stars, and but
like the evolutionary biology it does that I think even
more like where do we come from? Why do we
(05:35):
behave the way we do? But social interactions that's why
I mean I studied social behavior as well, and it
just you know, it doesn't give you definite answers to
questions about human nature, but it paints like a picture
and you can you can actually get an idea of
what these things came from, Why we behave the way
they do, why are we irrational? They have to be explained,
(05:57):
explained at least in part, if not in a whole thing,
through an evolutionary lens. If you want to just get
anywhere in the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
A BAC, what would have been a plan be if
you weren't a scientist.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I guess what I'm doing now is kind of planned,
because my initial goal was to just be a university professor,
a researcher. If I didn't get into the sciences at all,
you know, that's I don't know what i'd be doing,
because I was doing real estate. I had a real
estate license before. I was kind of somewhat aimless in
(06:30):
what I wanted to do. You know, I was kind
of scared of the sciences because I didn't think I
was good at math, and so that's kind of what
kept me from initially going into the sciences. I just
did really poorly on it in high school. But it
wasn't until I really liked biology that I just I
took math classes. I was motivated, and it's like, actually,
I was pretty good at math, and so that's kind
of what opened those doors. So I don't know, I mean,
(06:52):
getting into evolutionary biology. To me, it was almost like
a religious awakening of some sort. I just revitalized for
life and studying.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I don't funny a religious awakening to push you
into sciences.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, almost, I mean there's some irony there.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah. I felt so motivated and it lasted, I mean
all through undergrad all through five years of graduate school
and in my post doc. And I'm still fascinated by
the topic. I'm not as interested in studying wasps and
spiders and all that stuff anymore, but the biology, it's
just it's fascinates me to no end. It's infinitely interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Do you think you'll ever go back to university professorship, You.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Know, I've thought a lot about that. Maybe not probably
not a full time professor. I could see me doing
like teaching a course at like a local university, maybe
online courses. I actually would really prefer in class teaching
that type of thing. If I could do an adjunct
for just a course or something, that's like, I think
what I lost the most of leaving academia was interacting
(07:55):
with students. I really wanted to have graduate students and
like mentor them and guide their research and have the
multiple projects going. And I loved interacting with my field
assistance when I was in academia, and you know, sometimes
we'd be like months in the field and in South
Africa and stuff, and it just was it was really well,
such a rewarding experience. Yeah, so I missed that. So
(08:15):
I think I'd like to maybe I'll reach out to
some of the local community colleges or even Vanderbilt in
here in Nashville, see if that might be possible for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, do you feel optimistic about like that you've won
this debate?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Basically?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There there is still gender insanity, and there's a lot
of people still saying a lot of you know, dumb things,
but overall America has sort of pushed back on this
idea that you can have twenty genders or that you
can change your gender. Is it a win for you personally?
(08:51):
Do you feel like that.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
There have been a lot of a lot of wins
for sure that I'm really happy about and proud to
have like contributed to as well. I hesitate to like
celebrate too early.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Sure, yes, hear you on that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Because I do see a lot of the same people
likes toe on the same line that they have been.
It really depends on, you know, future elections and how
toxic we can make this issue for one side of
the political aisle. I don't consider myself very partisan, but
I do want, like we need to assault the earth
(09:28):
on this topic, just so people realize it's such a
toxic thing. It's so untrue and it is so harmful
to both individuals and society that you need to pay
like a social price with some you know, we need
people need to be pained and laughed out of the
room by uttering these types of nonsense.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, and then you have like the Gavin Newsom's who
are saying the right thing on it but not doing
anything about it. You know, as governor of you know,
the biggest state, He's not fixing that issue in his
state at all. Let's say we're gender and sports collide.
He'll say, oh, boys shouldn't biological, boys shouldn't play in girls' sports.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
But then not actually do anything. Do you see movement
on that, Like, are are Are we heading in the
right direction?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
We're we're heading in the right direction. But I think
you highlighted correctly that there's this still is this at
least we're getting lip service from some people, but it
hasn't really translated into a lot of actions on the
other side. Like it just depends on you know, are
the Gavin Nuisance of the world who've been on podcasts
saying that it's unfair for right males and compete female sports.
Is he actually gonna push for that in his actions
(10:36):
and policies And are they just saying that now because
they don't want to sound crazy. But once they get power,
they'll like, you know, their their left wing is just
gonna have full control and they're just going to capitulate
to everything. So yeah, I worry about that a.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Lot, even before they get power.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Just in the next election, like you know, they're they're
going to have to raise their hands and say that,
you know, what they believe. So we'll see. I guess
on that, but I don't know. I am optimistic. I
guess That's what I wanted to get.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Through with you.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Is it feels like the win is here or very
very close. But I'm always worried about declaring victory too early,
just like you said, So I wanted to kind of
gauge if you're feeling good about the.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Moment I do. I feel really optimistic about it. So,
you know, we had Trump had an executive order about
the biology of sex, and then the White House actually
reached out to me because they needed a larger, more
like comprehensive definition of what sex was, what males and
females were. And so then I reached out because I
(11:44):
don't want to be the only person who's doing it,
because I want to make sure I'm getting, you know,
multiple perspectives, and so I reached out to some other biologists.
Carol Hooven's like one of these people, and they were
about five or six of us, and we crafted like
the most concrete definition of sex and we could possibly
have and that's that's currently you know, the law of
(12:04):
the land, and so that would have been incomprehensible under
you know, previous administrations, and I just hope it remains.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it's crazy how that couldn't be possible just a
few years ago, and yet that's you know, a big,
big change and a big move for the country.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, you know, we're making good legal changes. It just
needs to stick. There needs to be a cultural change
behind it so people actually value it and understand why
it's important, so it doesn't just get torn out immediately
as soon as you know, a different president comes in
and issues one hundred executive orders. It's overturning all the
other ones that Trump did. It's just and it could
so it's might think we have all this momentum in going,
(12:45):
but you know, a lot of it has been executive orders,
and so what can be you know, signed in to logy,
signed out of it in a in a pen stroke,
and we could just be set back.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, but the opinion of the country. I feel like
a regular Americans has changed. They know more about the
issue than they've ever known before. You know, Kamala Harris
wanting to give tex change sex changes to prisoners.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I would say that ad won the election for Trump.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I think Americans get it now in a way that
they didn't before. I mean, even I could think about myself,
you know, I don't know ten to fifteen years ago.
I was definitely ready on Twitter at the time, but
I remember seeing a headline like first man has a baby,
and I was like, wait what And then you read
the article and it's like, that's not a man, you know,
but even somebody who was super into the online universe,
(13:33):
I was fooled by the headline. And I think Americans
are no longer getting fooled like that.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, I think all the converts are definitely going in
one direction. So I think that's something because once you
I mean, there's a lot of people who just haven't
looked into the sex and gender issue, but once they do, like,
they can't look away, and they all go in the
direction of this is insane and we need to stop
this immediately. So it's just a matter of time of
just awakening more of those people who are like on
(14:00):
the fence who haven't been introduced to the issue. So
that's just a slowly ratcheting of support that the other side.
They're not growing in their numbers, at least, I'm pretty
positive they're not.
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Speaker 2 (15:43):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
It's related to this issue, and I would say it's
actually just speaking up about it. I had like such
I remember it was like twenty sixteen. This is when
I was in graduate school. I knew I wanted to
be a professor, and I just I was seeing the
social taboo like around this topic. Yeah, and I wrote
(16:06):
like an essay, but I didn't publish it anywhere. I
had it, Like for two years. I just sat on
this thing, and you know, I thought I was going
crazy because like what I was seeing around me as
a biologist, I had, you know, these principles of like
speaking the truth, but I felt like I couldn't say anything.
I Fortunately, my advisors and my closest mentors were all
(16:27):
like supportive of of me, and like they agreed with me,
and they're like, yeah, it's all crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And when I told him I wanted to publish like
an article about it, it was they just told me
I shouldn't. I shouldn't do it. You know. If I did,
I shouldn't put my name on it. And I seriously
asked myself, what would Christopher Hitchens do? That's literally what
I asked myself. Yeah, And it's just I know that
like all my heroes and my intellectual heroes, like they
(16:55):
would just think I'm this pathetic thing. If I just
didn't come with it, and so I ended up publishing
it with my name on it, and you know, it's
it's been really great ever since then. I mean I
did lose my academic career.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Other than that, you know, yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Was the career suicide and then, but just sticking to
my principles on this.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Issue, you should be very proud of that.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That's I think so few people take that chance, and
so many people do just cover their asses and not
speak out on what they think, you know, is truth.
I mean, you know, we saw during the pandemic, I
saw people not speak out on opening schools even though
their own kids were affected. It just it's very hard
(17:44):
to tell the truth when the tide is against you.
And so I'm glad you're proud of that, because that
is something to really be proud of.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, I mean it was. It was a major, I mean,
the biggest shift in my life ever. I almost lost
almost every one of my close friends at the time,
maybe maybe twenty percent of them I kept. Yeah, it
was just this major. I felt incredibly isolated. I had
like no friends. I was getting ostracized from my career.
(18:13):
I had just spent twelve years building I had no
idea what the future was going to hold. I thought
about becoming I was going to be maybe a fitness
in online online fitness and nutrition coach. I just needed
something that I couldn't get canceled from. Was my goal.
Like I'm willing to like not even be a biologist
or you know, use my PhD as long as I
(18:33):
just have like that that type of freedom. Unfortunately, I
worked out, I mean Claire at Quilette and the magazine
I published my article that you know, sort of made
me on the map in this space. I ended up
working for them, and then I could still maintain you know,
my voice, and then that just it kept snowballing. And
so now I'm working at the Manhattan Institute and forming
(18:55):
the White House on the definitions of you know, so
it's ye crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Did any of the friends come back?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
No? Yeah, they still haven't. No, they're in. They're in
pretty deep. Yeah, It's it's really interesting, I tell people sometimes,
you know, I studied social behavior for my PhD, and
like I learned more about social behavior in the last
five years. Yeah, by speaking the truth and like looking
(19:23):
at how people are trying to cancel me in collective
movements and I learned more way about social behavior than
I did in the thousands of papers I read on
on you know, the evolutionary psychology and evolutionary ecology of behavior,
for sure, Like I feel it deeply. Now.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I'm sorry you had to experience that, but you know,
it's they're on the wrong side of history. I know
that that's a trite breeze, but it's true. Here give
us a five year out prediction, and it could be
about anything, anything at all, country, world, anything.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So I mean, because for me personally, I'm planning on
starting a family soon, so I'm hoping that I'll have
toddlers or something five years ago. That would be a
very good So I hope, I hope that is true.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I hope that for you.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, for the world, it's tough. I mean, I'm not
much of a futurist, I don't think, but I do
think this is going to be one of those answers
that a lot of people give. Probably, I do think
people aren't really giving AI the attention it deserves, especially
for like the laptop class, like people like me. I
just just how much it's grown in the last how
long has it been around three years or something like
(20:35):
that it's just going to be it's just going to
dominate everything. It's it's going to write everything, every all
content is going to be produced by by AI. It's
going to just change all every type of like text publishing,
op eds. I don't know how people are going to
get become well known and the next generation as being
(20:55):
writers and things like that. Maybe some of us who
are maybe will be grandfathered in who have sort of
made I'm.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Ready to retire, don't worry about me.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, So it's just going to be it's going to
totally change everything. Like I think there's a lot of
the laptop class is going to be out of out
of work if they're not trying to find ways to
have AI for their benefit. To stay ahead of it.
We kind of touched on this other thing, but for
gender ideology, like I think it's I think it's you know,
(21:25):
in abeyance right now. It's it's I think we're going
to get more wins on the the sports thing and
maybe the pediatric gender for MA care thing, But it's
it's always going to be there. I mean, it's there's
just kind of like this cult like adherence to it,
and it's not going to go away, so it'll still
be a relevant issue in politics, but I think hopefully
it can be just like quarantined enough where we can
(21:48):
actually like have adult conversations and and make policies without
having to like ask them what they think about.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
That would be nice. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, you know, in the wake of Charlie kirk assassination,
I do think there's going to be a bolder Christianity
in politics in the next five years. So yeah, of
a revival type movement. So I think we'll see how
that plays out. You know, he could go in positive directions,
it could go in bad directions, depending on who. There's
(22:18):
people at the top of uying to pull out in
two different directions, right, How that has to play out. Yeah,
there's there's a lot going on and all that's going
to mix together and in the next five years, and
so it's hard to know how any of it's going
to shake out in the end.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But all right, you'll come on in like five years
and let us know. We're going to take a quick
break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I've really really enjoyed this conversation. Colin is an amazing
follow on X. His at is swipe right with a W.
He's really fantastic and I highly recommend you go follow
him and here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I mean two main things, at least I can say
worked for me. The first is physical health to some degree,
because I used to be considerably overweight, and then I
lost around sixty five pounds probably in the course of
like a year and a half, and that dramatically changed
just how I my mental health. It changed my ability
(23:25):
to like to think clearly and think about the future
and all these things. It dramatically improved my life, not
just because I was you know, I thought myself was
more attractive or you know, was able to do physical things. Yeah,
it definitely it helps your mental health so much. And
then something else, like kind of related to everything we've
been saying, is I just I think the guiding principle
(23:48):
I've had in my life is to tell the truth
and or at least try to understand what the truth
is and tell it to the best of your ability.
You can never know what you're saying is true, for sure,
but at least be open to other people challenging your
views and you know you need to really just use
truth as your your load star in life. I think
(24:08):
because one thing that has improved my life, and it
made it worse at first, as I mentioned how I
lost like eighty percent of all my friends. Yeah, but
one I think the silver lining in all of this
and telling the truth and speaking up and being sort
of bold in the space is one you find out
who your friends truly.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Are, which is always important.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Which is like, I can't tell people how important that
is because most people go through life just thinking they
know who their friends are. But I'm telling you right now,
if you haven't said anything, if you're keeping opinions to
yourself that you think might be socially toxic or volatile,
probably over half of your friends, if not the majority,
(24:48):
are not actually your friends. And that's just a crazy
revelation to have. And so you not only know who
your friends are and who will actually stick by you
through anything, and you also attract more of those types
of people in your life who will like you for
you nuts is because they like your opinions, they have
yeah to have you as a social accessory of for
(25:10):
their opinions. That is probably the most profound difference in
my life is just my old friends, the ones who
did survive through that filter, you know, with me me
speaking up, probably the best ones right there. I'm so
close to them, it's insane. My family, of course, has
always been so supportive, so like they're they're they're amazing.
(25:30):
And then the new friends I've made are all just
like the most top notch people I can ever imagine,
and it's it's so rewarding to my life and my
social interactions. I can't even love that.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Be honest with who you are and you'll have the
best people around you. Thank you so much. He is
Colin Wright. Check them out at swipe right on X.
Thank you so much, Colin.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Thanks, this was a lot of fun.
Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitch Show on Iheartdio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
My guest today is Colin Wright. Colin is an.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Evolutionary biologist and a fellow at Manhattan Institute.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
So nice to have you on, Colin.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
So are there many evolutionary biologists at think tanks or
are you the whole ball game?
Speaker 3 (00:27):
That's a good question. I might be one of the
one of, not the first ones that I know of.
So I started working at the Manhattan Institute three years ago,
two and a half. Actually I do know that my
friend Carol Hooven, who's also an evolutionary billotist, she just
got a job at the American Enterprise Institute.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay, so there's two of you.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, yeah, so there's at least two of us. But yeah,
that's actually interesting. I don't think I don't think we
really played a role in think tanks until there is
no use for our services outside of a universities setting. Yeah,
that's actually that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Yeah, what's the crossover there?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What brought you to Manhattan Institute? How does an evolutionary
biologist end up at a think tank?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's a good question. So we're both employed by our
respective think tanks because of our outspokenness writing and clarifying
the nature of I guess the sex and gender debate
is how I might express that more broadly. So I became,
(01:31):
I guess known for articles about why there's only two
sexes and humans and mammals and why you can't change sex.
And these might seem like esoteric topics and why do
we care about that? But it's really relevant for things
like pediatric gender care ideology surrounding that of you know,
telling kids you can be maybe born in the wrong
(01:51):
body and we can change your sex with hormones and
surgeries and those things, because it's literally what they believe
in is like the justification for these procede is that
sex is just like this array of different characteristics and
they can all be sort of modified and moved. So
we just try to provide clarifying, I guess, a way
to think about this issue and the biology, and just
(02:12):
to make sure people can actually have informed, you know,
ideas behind their decisions they're trying to make for their lives.
You know, Ultimately I support people willing to transition with
their adults, but I just don't want people to be
lied to about biology, and so it's making sure that
people just have all the information that's there because there's
a lot of distortions.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
It's funny because you would think all evolutionary biologists would
be on that side.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
But that's not the case, right.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
It is not the case, which is really puzzling because
I mean, I know a lot of the biologists. I
know what they're studying. I know that they study, at
least in my field when I studied animal behavior, and
so many of them study sex differences in behavior because
it's like the most most pronounced difference in behavior. You'll
usually see what the species is between males and females.
(03:01):
And that's how I had such a fundamental understanding of
what the universal and fundamental distinction between males and females were.
And I know all my colleagues understand that as well,
but through political reasons and social reasons, you know, they
just sort of either just don't say anything about it,
or they just they kind of ignore, or they just
(03:22):
go along with sort of the activist line. It's it's
really bizarre. I don't understand it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Did you have pressure to go along with that activist line.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
As well, oh, it was immense pressure, for sure. I
think I first started hearing about people making weird claims
about the biology of sex. I think I was on
Facebook probably in like twenty fifteen or sixteen, when people
were sending like there was a Nature article called sex Redefined,
and there's a subtitles like how the biology of male
(03:51):
and female or the sex binaries overleased simplistic, you know.
Before I heard about little bits in like the New
York Times and just on activist blogs, but that was
really put into you know, a Nature magazine. This is
like the biggest, most prestigious scientific journal, and so that's
you know, that's kind of when I first started seeing
it and decided to push back against that stuff. And
(04:12):
there was I noticed that when I was speaking about
that issue, unlike any other topic in the sciences, you know,
if we're talking about I studied social spiders and insects.
If I were to make a claim about insects that
my colleagues thatt were wrong, it would just be like, oh, no,
have you read this paper, just see this if you
you know how about these ideas, you know, there would
be no social shaming involved. But when I say I
(04:35):
think there's only two sexes because of the things about
gam meets and it was just immediate, like condemnation, you're
a horrible person. So that to me, that was a
signal like there's something under theood here that like is
way different than any other issue.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Absolutely, did you always want to be a biologist?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
I knew I wanted to be like a scientist from
a young age. I was really I thought I might
go you like the Astronomy round. I was like a
huge Carl Sagan fan all the Cosmos series. I was
just like obsessed with it. Yeah, but he had I
loved his episodes that he did on the biology and
evolution as well. But then I started reading a lot
(05:15):
of biologists and evolutionary biologists like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Gould.
It just totally captivated me. It was more like philosophical
and nature. I mean, astronomy can be philosophical too, with
like place in the universe and the stars, and but
like the evolutionary biology it does that I think even
more like where do we come from? Why do we
(05:35):
behave the way we do? But social interactions that's why
I mean I studied social behavior as well, and it
just you know, it doesn't give you definite answers to
questions about human nature, but it paints like a picture
and you can you can actually get an idea of
what these things came from, Why we behave the way
they do, why are we irrational? They have to be explained,
(05:57):
explained at least in part, if not in a whole thing,
through an evolutionary lens. If you want to just get
anywhere in the ballpark.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
A BAC, what would have been a plan be if
you weren't a scientist.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I guess what I'm doing now is kind of planned,
because my initial goal was to just be a university professor,
a researcher. If I didn't get into the sciences at all,
you know, that's I don't know what i'd be doing,
because I was doing real estate. I had a real
estate license before. I was kind of somewhat aimless in
(06:30):
what I wanted to do. You know, I was kind
of scared of the sciences because I didn't think I
was good at math, and so that's kind of what
kept me from initially going into the sciences. I just
did really poorly on it in high school. But it
wasn't until I really liked biology that I just I
took math classes. I was motivated, and it's like, actually,
I was pretty good at math, and so that's kind
of what opened those doors. So I don't know, I mean,
(06:52):
getting into evolutionary biology. To me, it was almost like
a religious awakening of some sort. I just revitalized for
life and studying.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
And I don't funny a religious awakening to push you
into sciences.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, almost, I mean there's some irony there.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah. I felt so motivated and it lasted, I mean
all through undergrad all through five years of graduate school
and in my post doc. And I'm still fascinated by
the topic. I'm not as interested in studying wasps and
spiders and all that stuff anymore, but the biology, it's
just it's fascinates me to no end. It's infinitely interesting.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Do you think you'll ever go back to university professorship, You.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Know, I've thought a lot about that. Maybe not probably
not a full time professor. I could see me doing
like teaching a course at like a local university, maybe
online courses. I actually would really prefer in class teaching
that type of thing. If I could do an adjunct
for just a course or something, that's like, I think
what I lost the most of leaving academia was interacting
(07:55):
with students. I really wanted to have graduate students and
like mentor them and guide their research and have the
multiple projects going. And I loved interacting with my field
assistance when I was in academia, and you know, sometimes
we'd be like months in the field and in South
Africa and stuff, and it just was it was really well,
such a rewarding experience. Yeah, so I missed that. So
(08:15):
I think I'd like to maybe I'll reach out to
some of the local community colleges or even Vanderbilt in
here in Nashville, see if that might be possible for sure.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Yeah, do you feel optimistic about like that you've won
this debate?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Basically?
Speaker 1 (08:31):
There there is still gender insanity, and there's a lot
of people still saying a lot of you know, dumb things,
but overall America has sort of pushed back on this
idea that you can have twenty genders or that you
can change your gender. Is it a win for you personally?
(08:51):
Do you feel like that.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
There have been a lot of a lot of wins
for sure that I'm really happy about and proud to
have like contributed to as well. I hesitate to like
celebrate too early.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Sure, yes, hear you on that, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Because I do see a lot of the same people
likes toe on the same line that they have been.
It really depends on, you know, future elections and how
toxic we can make this issue for one side of
the political aisle. I don't consider myself very partisan, but
I do want, like we need to assault the earth
(09:28):
on this topic, just so people realize it's such a
toxic thing. It's so untrue and it is so harmful
to both individuals and society that you need to pay
like a social price with some you know, we need
people need to be pained and laughed out of the
room by uttering these types of nonsense.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, and then you have like the Gavin Newsom's who
are saying the right thing on it but not doing
anything about it. You know, as governor of you know,
the biggest state, He's not fixing that issue in his
state at all. Let's say we're gender and sports collide.
He'll say, oh, boys shouldn't biological, boys shouldn't play in girls' sports.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
But then not actually do anything. Do you see movement
on that, Like, are are Are we heading in the
right direction?
Speaker 3 (10:14):
We're we're heading in the right direction. But I think
you highlighted correctly that there's this still is this at
least we're getting lip service from some people, but it
hasn't really translated into a lot of actions on the
other side. Like it just depends on you know, are
the Gavin Nuisance of the world who've been on podcasts
saying that it's unfair for right males and compete female sports.
Is he actually gonna push for that in his actions
(10:36):
and policies And are they just saying that now because
they don't want to sound crazy. But once they get power,
they'll like, you know, their their left wing is just
gonna have full control and they're just going to capitulate
to everything. So yeah, I worry about that a.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
Lot, even before they get power.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Just in the next election, like you know, they're they're
going to have to raise their hands and say that,
you know, what they believe. So we'll see. I guess
on that, but I don't know. I am optimistic. I
guess That's what I wanted to get.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Through with you.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Is it feels like the win is here or very
very close. But I'm always worried about declaring victory too early,
just like you said, So I wanted to kind of
gauge if you're feeling good about the.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Moment I do. I feel really optimistic about it. So,
you know, we had Trump had an executive order about
the biology of sex, and then the White House actually
reached out to me because they needed a larger, more
like comprehensive definition of what sex was, what males and
females were. And so then I reached out because I
(11:44):
don't want to be the only person who's doing it,
because I want to make sure I'm getting, you know,
multiple perspectives, and so I reached out to some other biologists.
Carol Hooven's like one of these people, and they were
about five or six of us, and we crafted like
the most concrete definition of sex and we could possibly
have and that's that's currently you know, the law of
(12:04):
the land, and so that would have been incomprehensible under
you know, previous administrations, and I just hope it remains.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, it's crazy how that couldn't be possible just a
few years ago, and yet that's you know, a big,
big change and a big move for the country.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Yeah, you know, we're making good legal changes. It just
needs to stick. There needs to be a cultural change
behind it so people actually value it and understand why
it's important, so it doesn't just get torn out immediately
as soon as you know, a different president comes in
and issues one hundred executive orders. It's overturning all the
other ones that Trump did. It's just and it could
so it's might think we have all this momentum in going,
(12:45):
but you know, a lot of it has been executive orders,
and so what can be you know, signed in to logy,
signed out of it in a in a pen stroke,
and we could just be set back.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, but the opinion of the country. I feel like
a regular Americans has changed. They know more about the
issue than they've ever known before. You know, Kamala Harris
wanting to give tex change sex changes to prisoners.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I would say that ad won the election for Trump.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I think Americans get it now in a way that
they didn't before. I mean, even I could think about myself,
you know, I don't know ten to fifteen years ago.
I was definitely ready on Twitter at the time, but
I remember seeing a headline like first man has a baby,
and I was like, wait what And then you read
the article and it's like, that's not a man, you know,
but even somebody who was super into the online universe,
(13:33):
I was fooled by the headline. And I think Americans
are no longer getting fooled like that.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah, I think all the converts are definitely going in
one direction. So I think that's something because once you
I mean, there's a lot of people who just haven't
looked into the sex and gender issue, but once they do, like,
they can't look away, and they all go in the
direction of this is insane and we need to stop
this immediately. So it's just a matter of time of
just awakening more of those people who are like on
(14:00):
the fence who haven't been introduced to the issue. So
that's just a slowly ratcheting of support that the other side.
They're not growing in their numbers, at least, I'm pretty
positive they're not.
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The Karrol Markowitz Show continues right after this.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
What are you most proud of in your life?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
It's related to this issue, and I would say it's
actually just speaking up about it. I had like such
I remember it was like twenty sixteen. This is when
I was in graduate school. I knew I wanted to
be a professor, and I just I was seeing the
social taboo like around this topic. Yeah, and I wrote
(16:06):
like an essay, but I didn't publish it anywhere. I
had it, Like for two years. I just sat on
this thing, and you know, I thought I was going
crazy because like what I was seeing around me as
a biologist, I had, you know, these principles of like
speaking the truth, but I felt like I couldn't say anything.
I Fortunately, my advisors and my closest mentors were all
(16:27):
like supportive of of me, and like they agreed with me,
and they're like, yeah, it's all crazy.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
And when I told him I wanted to publish like
an article about it, it was they just told me
I shouldn't. I shouldn't do it. You know. If I did,
I shouldn't put my name on it. And I seriously
asked myself, what would Christopher Hitchens do? That's literally what
I asked myself. Yeah, And it's just I know that
like all my heroes and my intellectual heroes, like they
(16:55):
would just think I'm this pathetic thing. If I just
didn't come with it, and so I ended up publishing
it with my name on it, and you know, it's
it's been really great ever since then. I mean I
did lose my academic career.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Other than that, you know, yeah, there.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Was the career suicide and then, but just sticking to
my principles on this.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Issue, you should be very proud of that.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That's I think so few people take that chance, and
so many people do just cover their asses and not
speak out on what they think, you know, is truth.
I mean, you know, we saw during the pandemic, I
saw people not speak out on opening schools even though
their own kids were affected. It just it's very hard
(17:44):
to tell the truth when the tide is against you.
And so I'm glad you're proud of that, because that
is something to really be proud of.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Yeah, I mean it was. It was a major, I mean,
the biggest shift in my life ever. I almost lost
almost every one of my close friends at the time,
maybe maybe twenty percent of them I kept. Yeah, it
was just this major. I felt incredibly isolated. I had
like no friends. I was getting ostracized from my career.
(18:13):
I had just spent twelve years building I had no
idea what the future was going to hold. I thought
about becoming I was going to be maybe a fitness
in online online fitness and nutrition coach. I just needed
something that I couldn't get canceled from. Was my goal.
Like I'm willing to like not even be a biologist
or you know, use my PhD as long as I
(18:33):
just have like that that type of freedom. Unfortunately, I
worked out, I mean Claire at Quilette and the magazine
I published my article that you know, sort of made
me on the map in this space. I ended up
working for them, and then I could still maintain you know,
my voice, and then that just it kept snowballing. And
so now I'm working at the Manhattan Institute and forming
(18:55):
the White House on the definitions of you know, so
it's ye crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Did any of the friends come back?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
No? Yeah, they still haven't. No, they're in. They're in
pretty deep. Yeah, It's it's really interesting, I tell people sometimes,
you know, I studied social behavior for my PhD, and
like I learned more about social behavior in the last
five years. Yeah, by speaking the truth and like looking
(19:23):
at how people are trying to cancel me in collective
movements and I learned more way about social behavior than
I did in the thousands of papers I read on
on you know, the evolutionary psychology and evolutionary ecology of behavior,
for sure, Like I feel it deeply. Now.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I'm sorry you had to experience that, but you know,
it's they're on the wrong side of history. I know
that that's a trite breeze, but it's true. Here give
us a five year out prediction, and it could be
about anything, anything at all, country, world, anything.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
So I mean, because for me personally, I'm planning on
starting a family soon, so I'm hoping that I'll have
toddlers or something five years ago. That would be a
very good So I hope, I hope that is true.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I hope that for you.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, for the world, it's tough. I mean, I'm not
much of a futurist, I don't think, but I do
think this is going to be one of those answers
that a lot of people give. Probably, I do think
people aren't really giving AI the attention it deserves, especially
for like the laptop class, like people like me. I
just just how much it's grown in the last how
long has it been around three years or something like
(20:35):
that it's just going to be it's just going to
dominate everything. It's it's going to write everything, every all
content is going to be produced by by AI. It's
going to just change all every type of like text publishing,
op eds. I don't know how people are going to
get become well known and the next generation as being
(20:55):
writers and things like that. Maybe some of us who
are maybe will be grandfathered in who have sort of
made I'm.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Ready to retire, don't worry about me.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah, So it's just going to be it's going to
totally change everything. Like I think there's a lot of
the laptop class is going to be out of out
of work if they're not trying to find ways to
have AI for their benefit. To stay ahead of it.
We kind of touched on this other thing, but for
gender ideology, like I think it's I think it's you know,
(21:25):
in abeyance right now. It's it's I think we're going
to get more wins on the the sports thing and
maybe the pediatric gender for MA care thing, But it's
it's always going to be there. I mean, it's there's
just kind of like this cult like adherence to it,
and it's not going to go away, so it'll still
be a relevant issue in politics, but I think hopefully
it can be just like quarantined enough where we can
(21:48):
actually like have adult conversations and and make policies without
having to like ask them what they think about.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
That would be nice. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, you know, in the wake of Charlie kirk assassination,
I do think there's going to be a bolder Christianity
in politics in the next five years. So yeah, of
a revival type movement. So I think we'll see how
that plays out. You know, he could go in positive directions,
it could go in bad directions, depending on who. There's
(22:18):
people at the top of uying to pull out in
two different directions, right, How that has to play out. Yeah,
there's there's a lot going on and all that's going
to mix together and in the next five years, and
so it's hard to know how any of it's going
to shake out in the end.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But all right, you'll come on in like five years
and let us know. We're going to take a quick
break and be right back on the Carol Markowitz Show.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
I've really really enjoyed this conversation. Colin is an amazing
follow on X. His at is swipe right with a W.
He's really fantastic and I highly recommend you go follow
him and here with your best tip for my listeners
on how they can improve their lives.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I mean two main things, at least I can say
worked for me. The first is physical health to some degree,
because I used to be considerably overweight, and then I
lost around sixty five pounds probably in the course of
like a year and a half, and that dramatically changed
just how I my mental health. It changed my ability
(23:25):
to like to think clearly and think about the future
and all these things. It dramatically improved my life, not
just because I was you know, I thought myself was
more attractive or you know, was able to do physical things. Yeah,
it definitely it helps your mental health so much. And
then something else, like kind of related to everything we've
been saying, is I just I think the guiding principle
(23:48):
I've had in my life is to tell the truth
and or at least try to understand what the truth
is and tell it to the best of your ability.
You can never know what you're saying is true, for sure,
but at least be open to other people challenging your
views and you know you need to really just use
truth as your your load star in life. I think
(24:08):
because one thing that has improved my life, and it
made it worse at first, as I mentioned how I
lost like eighty percent of all my friends. Yeah, but
one I think the silver lining in all of this
and telling the truth and speaking up and being sort
of bold in the space is one you find out
who your friends truly.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Are, which is always important.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Which is like, I can't tell people how important that
is because most people go through life just thinking they
know who their friends are. But I'm telling you right now,
if you haven't said anything, if you're keeping opinions to
yourself that you think might be socially toxic or volatile,
probably over half of your friends, if not the majority,
(24:48):
are not actually your friends. And that's just a crazy
revelation to have. And so you not only know who
your friends are and who will actually stick by you
through anything, and you also attract more of those types
of people in your life who will like you for
you nuts is because they like your opinions, they have
yeah to have you as a social accessory of for
(25:10):
their opinions. That is probably the most profound difference in
my life is just my old friends, the ones who
did survive through that filter, you know, with me me
speaking up, probably the best ones right there. I'm so
close to them, it's insane. My family, of course, has
always been so supportive, so like they're they're they're amazing.
(25:30):
And then the new friends I've made are all just
like the most top notch people I can ever imagine,
and it's it's so rewarding to my life and my
social interactions. I can't even love that.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Be honest with who you are and you'll have the
best people around you. Thank you so much. He is
Colin Wright. Check them out at swipe right on X.
Thank you so much, Colin.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Thanks, this was a lot of fun.
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