July 11, 2024 • 33 mins
In this episode, Lisa and Ari Fleischer discuss the current political climate, focusing on calls for Joe Biden to step down and the potential impact of a new Democratic candidate. Fleischer, a former White House press secretary, provides insights into the media's role and the changing landscape of political communication. They explore Biden's cognitive decline, the Democrats' strategy, and Donald Trump's behavior in the current election cycle. Fleischer also critiques the media's liberal bias and its impact on public trust, emphasizing the need for more diverse viewpoints in newsrooms. The Truth with Lisa Boothe is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Monday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
What a time to be alive. Every day as I
watched the news cycles and all of this unfold, this
presidential election cycle, It's like, is this real life? Is
this the Truman Show or something? How can this be real?
We're having a debate in this country. If the President
of the United States, the commander in chief, might have dementia,
(00:21):
is clearly incognitive decline. And we saw that even when
he was walking to the debate stage. We sure saw
it during the debate. I mean really, within the first
five minutes his interview with George Stephanopoulos to me, seemed
like a child telling his parent that he needs to
take the keys away and doing so on behalf of
the Democrat Party telling an elderly parent, I need to
(00:42):
take the keys away from you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So what does this all mean? This election cycle?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And now that we have these mounting calls for Joe
Biden to step aside. We saw most recently with sedator
Michael Bennett of Colorado raising concerns about Joe Biden, raising
concerns that he thinks that Donald Trump would win in
a landslide at the rate that we are going in.
You've got George Clooney calling for Joe Biden to step down.
So at what point do those calls become inescapable? Do
(01:10):
they if it's Kamala Harris, what does that race look like?
How does that reshape the twenty twenty four presidential election?
And then in looking at all of this, particularly on
the heels of the media telling us that any video
that surfaced or that was put out of Joe Biden
looking elderly, Joe Biden looking like he's incognitive decline, after
calling those videos cheap fakes and then now admitting, oh no, okay,
(01:33):
something is going on with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Sorry we lied before. What did Democrats do?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
What do the media do if Joe Biden decides to
stay in this race?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Aren't they kind of boxed in?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we are in a crazy election environment, a crazy
political environment, so many questions, all of it shifting. Who
better to go to than my colleague Ari Fleischer. I'm
not out numbered with him very frequently. I'm always interested
in hearing what he has to say. I think it
does such a good job of sort of being unemotional
(02:03):
in the way he observes things, of just really taking
a sober viewpoint, a sober analysis to where we are
politically and just speaking in very common sense terms obviously
as someone who has spent who's worked in the top
top top of political communications and in politics as a
White House preseecretary for George W. Bush, particularly during nine
(02:25):
to eleven, you know, such a consequential point in history,
such an important point in history, such a chaotic point
in history. He just has so much experience and can
speak from that. And then now of course he runs
his own communications company where he's worked with you know, huge,
huge names Ari Fleischer Communications. I am just looking forward
to having this conversation with him, asking of all these questions,
(02:47):
asking about how the media has changed since his time
as Press secretary, and how does he see this election
cycle unfold, So so many questions for such a smart man.
My colleague and friend, Ari Fleischer, stay tuned well, Ari,
it's awesome to have you on the show. I always
get so excited when we're going to be on out
(03:08):
Numbered together because I'm just always interested in what you
have to say. So I'm so excited about having on
the podcast, and I just really appreciate you making the time.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, it's mutual.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
You are a hard working, know your fact woman, and
you make a great showmate.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, that is an honor coming from you, and especially
just where we are today in this political environment, also
in the media. So I'm just really looking forward to
picking your brain on this. You know, are we continue
to see the calls for.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Joe Biden to step down. The pressure is mounting.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You've got Senator Michael Bennett, the first Democrat to come
out against Joe Biden in the Senate. George Clooney, now
a big Democrat donor as well. Well.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Joe Biden stepped down. If you listen to Joe Biden,
the answer is no. I think if you listen to
the rest of the Democrat Party, the hope, the answer
becomes yes. But it's stuck to Joe Biden, and he's
a stubborn man. He likes to say I beat Trump
before I beat him again. If I had to bet,
stubbornness will prevail.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So what point do you think, because now Democrats have
kind of boxed themselves in, right, because you've had the
media come out and you know, admit what we've always
known to be true, that Joe Biden the mental qut
is not there like it used to be. You've now
how Democrats come out and admit that as well.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So if Joe Biden doesn't.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Step out of this race, like, how do they how
do they turn this around?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know, what does that look like for Democrats?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, the salvation for the Democrats is what it's always been.
It's Donald Trump. Democrats are based their entire campaign on hiding.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Joe Biden in the basement because they know he's.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Frail, and even without the debate, they were going to
hide him in the basement and hope that the focus
will be exclusively on Donald Trump and that Donald Trump
will blow up Donald Trump. That has always been their
strategy and now it's a less likely.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Strategy to succeed, but that is their hope.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
In observing Donald Trump this election cycle, it does seem
like he has learned some lessons from the past. I mean,
you know, even somewhat sitting out what's happening right now.
You know, we haven't necessarily seen that from him, you know,
just like a little bit more discipline.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Have you observed that? You know, does it appear to
you that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
You know, maybe he sort of learned some lessons from
the past election cycles?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
One hundred percent, and I hope that it persists for
the next four months and frankly for the next four years.
I was thinking this morning, contrasts President Trump's behavior during
the COVID crisis, where he held those hour long, hour
and a half long news conferences every day that just
turned into sessions of ranker and going back and forth
with the press corps. That didn't accomplish anything good, and
(05:57):
it kind of drained the public's patients because as they
saw the president too much. Contrast how President Trump put
himself front and for then without, how he handled Joe
Biden's meltdown, and how he let all the focus be
on Biden instead.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Of all the focus beyond Trump.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
It's night and day, Lisa. Will he continue to do
that going forward? I'm not willing to bet that two
weeks of modified behavior will undo Donald Trump's instinct to
put himself in the middle of everything. But I sure
like it. It was smart, it was disciplined, it was sensible.
(06:35):
And if that's how Donald Trump is going to be,
he can really have a great presidency in front of him.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Do you think the fact that you obviously Joe Biden
not mentally being there. We all saw that on the
debate stage, and then the fact that Democrats put forward
Joe Biden as their nominee. Does this impact the Democrat
Party in the way that voters observe it in terms of,
you know, just trust, or in terms of lending their
(07:03):
vote to them this election cycle.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
By every traditional metric, yes, because in a presidential election year,
it's often the down ballot, down ballot candidates who suffer
the president does poorly. This is what leads to waive elections.
But I'm going to give you an instant caveat. A
lot of us thought something similar in the first midterm
of Joe Biden, that Republicans should have gained a lot
(07:28):
more seats in the House, they should have picked up
the Senate. None of that, which by historical standards always happened,
took place. So what is there something else in the air?
Is there something else in the mix that makes traditional
political patterns dissolve in twenty twenty four? I don't think so,
(07:49):
But a lot of us, include myself, for wrong about
twenty twenty two. So as we gauge twenty twenty four,
a look back at two years ago history is worth
taking two No, I.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Agree with that, you know, I mean, look, I got
the min terms wrong. I've admitted that on this show
because basically, you know, I think a lot of us
were looking at historical references to to gauge what would
happen in the twenty twenty two midterm elections, and it
seems like past history no longer applies. And I wonder
how much of that has to do with just the
(08:22):
manner in which we vote has changed, right, you know,
you look at the twenty twenty election in Pennsylvania, Biden
got something like seventy five percent of the mail in ballots,
and so now that we rely more heavily on mail
in voting and early voting, and just the dynamics have changed,
you know, how much of that do you think sort
of reshapes? You know, how we look at these election
(08:45):
cycles moving forward?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I think the voting behavior changes it very little, and
on the margins, because Republicans do so much better on
day of the election voting. It benefits the Democrats to
the greater degree, however, because all it takes is one
big rainstorm or some kind of traffic problem. And if
your only day to vote is the election day, well,
(09:09):
if something goes wrong, you don't get there, you don't
get there. So Democrats get there. They have two three
four week period to get there, so it has benefited
them on the margins. I think that's going to change
a little bit in this cycle of Republicans. Hopefully we'll
vote more absentee. I think the biggest issue in twenty
twenty two and why it defied history, was for the
first time ever you essentially had two incumbents on the ballot.
(09:33):
Typically of midterm is a referendum on the new president,
in that case Joe Biden his first midterm. But because
President Trump stuck around, President Trump was such an active
part of the twenty twenty two campaign, it gave Democrats
a reason to say Trump is still on the ballot,
and it helped the Democrats to surge and turn out
as opposed to sit on their hands because they weren't
(09:54):
happy with Biden. I think that was the difference. Now
in a presidential year, with trum up on the ballot
and with Biden doing as poorly as he's doing, that
would certainly seem to suggest, at least by today's polls,
a landslide election for Donald Trump, which has huge implications
down ballot. The problem is the elections not for another
(10:18):
almost four months. A little under four months. So what
will happen between now and then?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Who knows?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Will President Trump stay disciplined? Will President Trump say something
or do something that all of a sudden shifts all
the media attention off of Biden.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And back onto Trump.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
The press would love to turn the worm against Donald Trump.
Or will Biden continue to think and Trump continue to
hold steady. That's what we're going to find out. No,
I mean, it's certainly.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I mean, it's just you know, wild times we're in politically,
and as you mentioned, there's just so many variables where
you know, we're obviously gauging where the race is today,
but you know, and he's also a waiting sentencing in
the book keeping case in New York, and you know
what happens with that. So I mean, there's just so much, uh,
you know, to be the termine in the race.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What was interesting is there was this American Bridge.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Call and one of the donors on the call said
that Kamala Harris is more threatening to swing voters than
a dead Joe Biden or a comatost Joe Biden. I
don't know how they like, which is you know, probably
true actually, but like I don't know how they could
bypass Kamala as the VP if Joe Biden were to
(11:30):
step down, do you see a world where they could
bypass her? And then if it is Kamala, you know,
how do you think that reshapes this election?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, one, I do.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Think a new candidate would do better than Joe Biden
and alive and kicking, even if it's just barely Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I think that the Democrats will go through civil war.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
It's going to be brutal, but at the end of it,
they're going to unify because they want to defeat Donald Trump.
So whoever they nominate is now going to be younger
than Donald Trump. There's going to be a kick in
their step of vigor in the party because they've got
somebody new, and they'll make up the money. All those
normal factors will surge to help the Democrats. So I
fear almost anybody as a new candidate, because Joe Biden
(12:15):
is their weakest candidate. If Biden's out, then I do
think it's going to go to Harris. I just think
for a Democratic party in its modern form, which places
no higher virtue than on your identity, politics, the chromosomes
and the color of your skin of which you were born.
That is more important to the Democrats than ideology than
(12:37):
anything else. How can they pass Kamala Harris up. I
just don't think they'll do it. And I think all
the stories, everything that we know about Kamala Harris, they're
just going to ignore. They're going to pretend she's popular
and rally behind her, and then it really becomes the
job of the Trump campaign and President Trump start to
shift to this last night a little bit rhetorically to
(12:58):
also remind people about what they don't like abou Kamala Harris.
How she's just a California Liberal who've got nothing done
as a California Attorney general, who's been a hapless vice president,
who made the border worse, and who can't even speak
English very well. So there's so much to work with Harris.
But I do think it would likely highly likely be her,
(13:21):
and that she'd be stronger than Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And the media will you know, proper up probably in
ways we actually have.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It Morworth Ari.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
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(14:12):
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Speaker 2 (14:36):
You know I want to ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You know, obviously you're working with people constantly and improving
the way they communicate, and you know you've done this
for a living for a very long time and are.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Incredibly good at it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
The media has been trying to reboot Kamala Harris since
twenty twenty one. Why do you think she has so
much trouble connecting with voters for all the reasons.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
We watch on TV?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Yeah, it's just not that intellectually bright. The things she says,
her loopy lexicon, her difficult way of putting two smart
thoughts together in the same paragraph.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
We see her and.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
People in California who know what she's like are among
her biggest critics. Elected leaders, party officials in California who
just know that she got appointed to everything and she's
really never been a solid, strong worker. Look at the
primary that she ran. It was a horrible primary. She
had to drop out before the first vote was cast.
(15:38):
But one thing she did that was memorable was tell
a story about how Joe Biden was a racist in
debate against Joe Biden. So what I like about politics, Lisa,
particularly on the presidential level, is voter see people for
who they really are. There's so much TV exposure that
you have to come across live. You come across samporaneous
(16:00):
unless you're Joe Biden, who just reads from a teleprompter
that people read you, they feel you, they know who
you are, and you can't pull one off over the voters.
That's going to be Harris's biggest problem.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, we've seen obviously Donald Trump. You know there's
a strong reaction on both sides to him. But why
do you think he's able to connect with the people
who support him in a way that we don't typically
see politicians be able to connect with their supporters in
that way?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Like what kind of like makes his style unique?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I think he's got two things. One is style and
the second is substance on style. It's the man is
so politically incorrect. The man is such a bull in
the china shop that for most people who can't stand politicians,
Donald Trump is their answer. He is finally someone who
comes along and just says it the way it's said,
(16:54):
it should be said, who isn't afraid to take on big,
complicated issues or groups, and it's refreshing. It's real America
as opposed to the gobblety cook that comes from Washington.
The second issue is substantive. People do remember how good
things were under Donald Trump, how there was peace, how
Russia didn't invade Ukraine, how Masten's attack Israel, they were scared,
(17:18):
and they were scared of Trump. How the border was
more secure, how strong the economy was, and particularly for
lower income Americans. So there are a lot of good
memories left over. And it's not a statistics game, Lisa.
This is where Biden's making the mistake of using this
data point and that data point to show how COVID
knocked it all out. But that's a reflection on Trump
(17:40):
and how Trump governed. No, people remember the way things
were prior to COVID, and they recognized COVID.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Just washed through our society, washed through the.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
World, and it was unfair to blame it on Trump
or anybody else. That helps Trump immeasurably. So I think
it's that combination of style, refreshing style, and substance. Now
I want to point out what Trump's done that's been brilliant,
is he has gained votes for Republicans in places Republicans
(18:10):
traditionally did not get votes. People making less than thirty
thousand dollars a year have swung toward Donald Trump. Romney
lost that group by twenty eight points. Trump lost them
by only eight points. Low income Americans. He'll do even
better in twenty twenty four. I predict he did way
better with Hispanic voters and with African American voters. McCain
got four percent of the African American vote, Romney got six. Trump,
(18:34):
the guy that Democrats call the races, got twelve. He
tripled McCain, doubled Romney, and again he'll do even better
in twenty twenty four. So he's grown the party in
a direction that the party needed to grow. But what
he's lost, and this is why if he's more disciplined
and smarter this cycle, we can get it back, is
(18:55):
the college educated suburban voter, particularly women. This has been
a group that's hemorrhaged for Republicans. These used to be
solid Republicans who are now independents who are voting for Biden.
And this is where if Trump doesn't gain enough with
low income Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Black Americans to offset
the losses in the suburbs, Biden could win.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So this is part.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Of the changing nature of politics too, and Republicans are gaining,
but we can't lose the suburbs the way we've been
losing the suburbs, you.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Know, and what's interesting and laying that all out is,
you know, like Joe Biden's whole mission statement essentially in
twenty twenty was I'm not Donald Trump, the other guy's worse,
you know. And now it's, as you pointed out, like
Americans are having Trump nostalgia and looking back at his administration,
you know, in a very positive way, especially compared to
(19:51):
how they're viewing their current situation with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And we're saying, you know, and even just.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The discussion around Joe Biden and they feel drop out,
you know. With Democrats, it's the well, it's a threat
to democracy, like Trump is such a threat to democracy
that you know, we need the strongest candidate. Do you
think that the threats to democracy narrative does that land
with voters?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
How effective do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
It's a great rallying cry for the Democrats.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
For anybody who thinks January seventh was is the biggest
issue and that Trump would do it again, it's a help.
That's a really strong rallying cry for that block.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I think for a.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Lot of independents who are still open minded, it's not
you know, when I hear threat to democracy, my first
thought is Colorado, Illinois, and Maine trying to throw Donald
Trump off the ballot because they tried to call him
an insurrectionist, something none of the trespactors and the rioters
on January seventh were accused of. None of them were
accused of insurrection, but that's enough for them to throw
(20:55):
Donald Trump off the ballot. There are a lot of
other threats to democracy, like Joe Biden and ignorance Supreme
Court rulings and trying to get people to have no
college debt to pay to make blue collar workers pay
for college educated voters so they.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Don't have any debts.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Biden's defying the courts and bragging about it. So if
you want to run threats to democracy, Democrats have some
planet to do.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
But it's a rallying cry. I don't think it goes
beyond that for the Democrats.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
They were even you know, trying to throw them in
jail and bankrupt them as they have with you know,
which is pretty remarkable that we're here as a country,
you know, and looking back to your time as White
House prospectory and then sort of observing the media now,
how I mean, how much has changed. I'm sure that's
(21:48):
probably a pretty loaded question. But you know, I imagine
that that's got to be pretty crazy for you to
like think back about your time and then now look
at the current environment, like, how has it changed. Why
do you think it's changed. I'd love to just kind
of get your insight on that.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, everything has changed.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
The biggest change is when I was Press secretary, if
there was something on.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
The front page of the New York Times, you had
to deal with it.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
It was going to affect voters. It was going to
affect Republicans. It certainly affected all the press core.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It was big.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Now Republicans can ignore whatever is in the New York
Times and most of the mainstream media. We have just
so cratered in terms of reading and viewing habits. The
major media has lost so many subscribers and viewers, and
those people are overwhelmingly Republicans and independents. The New York
Times is now a memo written by essentially college educated
(22:48):
Democratic voters for fellow college educated Democratic voters.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It's just these talking to d's.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
It's talking points for producers and executive producers and bookers
TV shows.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Because they read the New York Times, they.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Just drive around the same narrow, ideological cul de sac
talking to each other. That's what's changed to Lisa. There
was no Politico, there was no Axios, there was no
social media. There was no Facebook, no Twitter, no YouTube.
When I was Press secretary. Now Canada's running for office,
(23:25):
can and should build their own You need to build
your own list of followers. You need to build your
own list of viewers. You need to put together your
own videos. That would have been called government propaganda when
I was Press secretary. Now you build your own videos,
get it out on your own networks and communicate that way.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The world is different.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Has the media ever been objective?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yes, and I say it hesitantly because they've always been liberal.
But they were trained, even the liberals, to say are
a job is to report straight down the middle and
tell the news fairly to both sides. And I think
that they largely tried to do that in the eighties, nineties,
(24:11):
early two thousand's, really prior to the polarization of the
Internet and social media. But the stories they covered because
they were liberal, were liberal stories. Their points of view
were still liberal points of view. You had so few
conservatives in the media. Ed pages used to be much
more balanced and fair. That is really gone. TV shows,
(24:35):
you know Fox News, It used to be Hannity and Combs,
if you remember Sean Hannity along with a very liberal
co anchor. Now, of course it's just Hannity. The media
is gone in that direction. But I do think there
used to be a time when at least they tried
to be more balanced. And as a press secretary who
(24:55):
started on Capitol Hill in the eighties and worked in
the House to send it and then the White House
from the early eighties to the early two thousands, I
did get a fair hearing. I could pound the table
and make my case. I had to work harder than
any Democrat did because of the liberal nature of the press,
but it was achievable. Now you don't even try. You
(25:16):
don't need to, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
It also seems that, I mean, the whole world has
changed since you Trump went down the Golden escalator, and
the media has obviously changed a lot as well. It
seems like he's broken much of the media. Why do
you think they hate him so much?
Speaker 4 (25:38):
They did this to themselves. First of all, they did
it to themselves because number one, newsrooms are so overwhelmingly
liberal and they're alient to conservative thought. Look at how
many stories it's just about the few conservatives who try
to go into a newsroom and they got drummed out
of the newsroom. Remember when Ben Shapiro got hired by
Politico for one day just to be kind of a
(26:00):
guest editor, and it led to an uproar in the newsroom.
We can't have a known conservative be here, but they
can have known liberals. So they've done it to themselves
by being who they are, and they're comfortable being who
they are. They don't want a farg an injection of
conservatism or even neutrality to infect them.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Two, they've become activists.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
So if you're a liberal and you keep your mouth shut, okay,
you occupy the newsroom and your story selection is liberal,
but at least you're not an activist. Well that's over now.
They're activists for liberal and progressive causes. And that's what
turned them against Trump. Trump came along bull in the
China Shop, and the press can't stand him. It was reflexive.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It was they.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Abandoned neutrality, They abandoned half the country. And they wonder
why they lost viewers and readers. It's because they don't
reflect America. They don't look like America, they don't sound
like America. I think the media is dramatically out of
touch ideologically. And there's a pewpole that I'm familiar with
came out about three years ago that ask the American people,
(27:16):
do you feel the media understands people like you? So
what goes beyond bias? It goes to beyond ideology. Do
they understand people like you, your way of life, who
you are. There was only one group of Americans who
said the press understands people like me, and it was
college educated Democrats. If you were a college graduate, I'm sorry.
(27:40):
If you were a Democrat with a high school diploma,
you didn't think the press understood people like you. Independence,
college or high school press doesn't understand me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
And of course.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Republicans and Lisa, the group that is understood the least
by the press and they don't care are people who hunt,
people who fish, people collect guns, people who pray every day.
These are the people that the media really has a
hard time identifying with. They can parachute into those communities,
(28:10):
do a story and leave, but they're not from that group.
They're not of those people. It's the alien lifestyle. Yees
for the majority of Americans, it is their lifestyle. But
the press is out of touch, and that's why people
tell polsters the press don't understand people like me.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I've got a quick commercial break more with Ari Fleischer
on the other side, even just look at, you know,
the way the media pushed the you know, Russia Gates
story back in twenty sixteen, and then you had the
fifty one intelligence officers and the media telling us, oh,
this is most likely Russian disinformation, or just how unquestioning
(28:50):
they were during COVID, just you know, pushing those narratives
and then also going after anyone who had a counter
narrative or you know, who were a contrarian during that
period of time. And then you know, even just more
recently telling us that these videos of Joe Biden just
showing him doing you know, normal things but obviously appearing
to be of old age and you know, having trouble cognitively,
(29:13):
that those were cheap fakes, you know, and then we
find out with these radio hosts are just taking the
questions from the White House is there does the media
ever regain trust or do you think the media landscape
is just going to look a lot different moving forward?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
They won't regain trust for decades. They won't regain trust
until journalism schools recognize how lopsided, one sided virtually all
of them are. And until let's start welcoming people who hunt, fish,
have guns, pray all that to pray every day. Until
they have a newsroom that looks like America, they're not
(29:55):
going to represent America and they don't want it to
make that change.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I've come to.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The Columbia Journalism School twice now and did lectures for
aspiring journalists, and at the end of each time, I
asked him the previous presidential election, who'd you vote for?
Hands up if you voted for Hillary or if you
voted for Trump. Every hand up for Hillary. I did
it twenty years ago, thirty years ago when it was
the Bob Dole election against Bill Clinton, and I roomed
(30:24):
twelve Columbia journalists and I said, how many of you
voted for Bill Clinton? Eleven hands went up. So I
said to the twelfth guy, so you one person voted
for Bob Dole And he looked at me, said no,
I voted for Ralph Nader. I mean this is indicative
of the future of journalism, and it's unchanged, it's unbowed.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
It is activist.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And just watch, especially if Trump wins, you're going to
have hostile media coming after Trump with guns blazing. I
can remember one day of the press going after Biden
with guns blazing, and it was this week when they
went after Curn Jean Pierre for not being able to
answer the questions about neurologists who came to the White House.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
That was it.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
That was basically every day for me for my briefings.
That was every day for Trump's people for their briefings.
But they're not like that. One of the Democrats in
the White House. They weren't like that when Obama was
in the White House. Shoot, more than two dozen of them,
active working journalists, not columnists, not opinion writers went to
(31:31):
the White House or the Obama administration to become officials. No,
that's not going to change for decades. And this is
why I made the point at least about how things
have changed. It used to matter. It doesn't matter anymore.
Republicans can win without the New York Times, the Washington Post,
NBCCBS or ABC, and Trump's.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
About to prove it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Anything else that we've missed in this conversation any observations
you'd like to leave us with, or anything you'd like
to leave us with before we go.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, one big caveat, and as good as things are
right now, I continue to think this is going to
be a finger biting close election where we're going to
be up late on election night or into the next day.
It's been a great couple of months for President Trump,
but Republicans should realize tide comes in, the tide goes out,
(32:21):
and it's been a favorable tide, but it does not
last forever. And Republicans better run the best campaigns, the
most disciplined campaigns if they want to win in November.
This thing is by no means over or close to
being over.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I agree, Ari, a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's always an honor to talk with you, and it's
an honor to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I just really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
You're the best pleason.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Great to tell it was Ari Flaischer. I always love
being on out Numbered with him. Really appreciate him making
the time to come on the show. Appreciate you guys
at home for listening every Monday and Thursday, but you
can listen throughout the week. I want to thank John Cassio,
my producer, for putting the show together Until next time.
What a time to be alive. Every day as I
watched the news cycles and all of this unfold, this
presidential election cycle, It's like, is this real life? Is
this the Truman Show or something? How can this be real?
We're having a debate in this country. If the President
of the United States, the commander in chief, might have dementia,
(00:21):
is clearly incognitive decline. And we saw that even when
he was walking to the debate stage. We sure saw
it during the debate. I mean really, within the first
five minutes his interview with George Stephanopoulos to me, seemed
like a child telling his parent that he needs to
take the keys away and doing so on behalf of
the Democrat Party telling an elderly parent, I need to
(00:42):
take the keys away from you.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So what does this all mean? This election cycle?
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And now that we have these mounting calls for Joe
Biden to step aside. We saw most recently with sedator
Michael Bennett of Colorado raising concerns about Joe Biden, raising
concerns that he thinks that Donald Trump would win in
a landslide at the rate that we are going in.
You've got George Clooney calling for Joe Biden to step down.
So at what point do those calls become inescapable? Do
(01:10):
they if it's Kamala Harris, what does that race look like?
How does that reshape the twenty twenty four presidential election?
And then in looking at all of this, particularly on
the heels of the media telling us that any video
that surfaced or that was put out of Joe Biden
looking elderly, Joe Biden looking like he's incognitive decline, after
calling those videos cheap fakes and then now admitting, oh no, okay,
(01:33):
something is going on with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Sorry we lied before. What did Democrats do?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
What do the media do if Joe Biden decides to
stay in this race?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Aren't they kind of boxed in?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we are in a crazy election environment, a crazy
political environment, so many questions, all of it shifting. Who
better to go to than my colleague Ari Fleischer. I'm
not out numbered with him very frequently. I'm always interested
in hearing what he has to say. I think it
does such a good job of sort of being unemotional
(02:03):
in the way he observes things, of just really taking
a sober viewpoint, a sober analysis to where we are
politically and just speaking in very common sense terms obviously
as someone who has spent who's worked in the top
top top of political communications and in politics as a
White House preseecretary for George W. Bush, particularly during nine
(02:25):
to eleven, you know, such a consequential point in history,
such an important point in history, such a chaotic point
in history. He just has so much experience and can
speak from that. And then now of course he runs
his own communications company where he's worked with you know, huge,
huge names Ari Fleischer Communications. I am just looking forward
to having this conversation with him, asking of all these questions,
(02:47):
asking about how the media has changed since his time
as Press secretary, and how does he see this election
cycle unfold, So so many questions for such a smart man.
My colleague and friend, Ari Fleischer, stay tuned well, Ari,
it's awesome to have you on the show. I always
get so excited when we're going to be on out
(03:08):
Numbered together because I'm just always interested in what you
have to say. So I'm so excited about having on
the podcast, and I just really appreciate you making the time.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, it's mutual.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
You are a hard working, know your fact woman, and
you make a great showmate.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well, that is an honor coming from you, and especially
just where we are today in this political environment, also
in the media. So I'm just really looking forward to
picking your brain on this. You know, are we continue
to see the calls for.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Joe Biden to step down. The pressure is mounting.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You've got Senator Michael Bennett, the first Democrat to come
out against Joe Biden in the Senate. George Clooney, now
a big Democrat donor as well. Well.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Joe Biden stepped down. If you listen to Joe Biden,
the answer is no. I think if you listen to
the rest of the Democrat Party, the hope, the answer
becomes yes. But it's stuck to Joe Biden, and he's
a stubborn man. He likes to say I beat Trump
before I beat him again. If I had to bet,
stubbornness will prevail.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So what point do you think, because now Democrats have
kind of boxed themselves in, right, because you've had the
media come out and you know, admit what we've always
known to be true, that Joe Biden the mental qut
is not there like it used to be. You've now
how Democrats come out and admit that as well.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
So if Joe Biden doesn't.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Step out of this race, like, how do they how
do they turn this around?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
You know, what does that look like for Democrats?
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, the salvation for the Democrats is what it's always been.
It's Donald Trump. Democrats are based their entire campaign on hiding.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Joe Biden in the basement because they know he's.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Frail, and even without the debate, they were going to
hide him in the basement and hope that the focus
will be exclusively on Donald Trump and that Donald Trump
will blow up Donald Trump. That has always been their
strategy and now it's a less likely.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Strategy to succeed, but that is their hope.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
In observing Donald Trump this election cycle, it does seem
like he has learned some lessons from the past. I mean,
you know, even somewhat sitting out what's happening right now.
You know, we haven't necessarily seen that from him, you know,
just like a little bit more discipline.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Have you observed that? You know, does it appear to
you that.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
You know, maybe he sort of learned some lessons from
the past election cycles?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
One hundred percent, and I hope that it persists for
the next four months and frankly for the next four years.
I was thinking this morning, contrasts President Trump's behavior during
the COVID crisis, where he held those hour long, hour
and a half long news conferences every day that just
turned into sessions of ranker and going back and forth
with the press corps. That didn't accomplish anything good, and
(05:57):
it kind of drained the public's patients because as they
saw the president too much. Contrast how President Trump put
himself front and for then without, how he handled Joe
Biden's meltdown, and how he let all the focus be
on Biden instead.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
Of all the focus beyond Trump.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
It's night and day, Lisa. Will he continue to do
that going forward? I'm not willing to bet that two
weeks of modified behavior will undo Donald Trump's instinct to
put himself in the middle of everything. But I sure
like it. It was smart, it was disciplined, it was sensible.
(06:35):
And if that's how Donald Trump is going to be,
he can really have a great presidency in front of him.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Do you think the fact that you obviously Joe Biden
not mentally being there. We all saw that on the
debate stage, and then the fact that Democrats put forward
Joe Biden as their nominee. Does this impact the Democrat
Party in the way that voters observe it in terms of,
you know, just trust, or in terms of lending their
(07:03):
vote to them this election cycle.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
By every traditional metric, yes, because in a presidential election year,
it's often the down ballot, down ballot candidates who suffer
the president does poorly. This is what leads to waive elections.
But I'm going to give you an instant caveat. A
lot of us thought something similar in the first midterm
of Joe Biden, that Republicans should have gained a lot
(07:28):
more seats in the House, they should have picked up
the Senate. None of that, which by historical standards always happened,
took place. So what is there something else in the air?
Is there something else in the mix that makes traditional
political patterns dissolve in twenty twenty four? I don't think so,
(07:49):
But a lot of us, include myself, for wrong about
twenty twenty two. So as we gauge twenty twenty four,
a look back at two years ago history is worth
taking two No, I.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Agree with that, you know, I mean, look, I got
the min terms wrong. I've admitted that on this show
because basically, you know, I think a lot of us
were looking at historical references to to gauge what would
happen in the twenty twenty two midterm elections, and it
seems like past history no longer applies. And I wonder
how much of that has to do with just the
(08:22):
manner in which we vote has changed, right, you know,
you look at the twenty twenty election in Pennsylvania, Biden
got something like seventy five percent of the mail in ballots,
and so now that we rely more heavily on mail
in voting and early voting, and just the dynamics have changed,
you know, how much of that do you think sort
of reshapes? You know, how we look at these election
(08:45):
cycles moving forward?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
I think the voting behavior changes it very little, and
on the margins, because Republicans do so much better on
day of the election voting. It benefits the Democrats to
the greater degree, however, because all it takes is one
big rainstorm or some kind of traffic problem. And if
your only day to vote is the election day, well,
(09:09):
if something goes wrong, you don't get there, you don't
get there. So Democrats get there. They have two three
four week period to get there, so it has benefited
them on the margins. I think that's going to change
a little bit in this cycle of Republicans. Hopefully we'll
vote more absentee. I think the biggest issue in twenty
twenty two and why it defied history, was for the
first time ever you essentially had two incumbents on the ballot.
(09:33):
Typically of midterm is a referendum on the new president,
in that case Joe Biden his first midterm. But because
President Trump stuck around, President Trump was such an active
part of the twenty twenty two campaign, it gave Democrats
a reason to say Trump is still on the ballot,
and it helped the Democrats to surge and turn out
as opposed to sit on their hands because they weren't
(09:54):
happy with Biden. I think that was the difference. Now
in a presidential year, with trum up on the ballot
and with Biden doing as poorly as he's doing, that
would certainly seem to suggest, at least by today's polls,
a landslide election for Donald Trump, which has huge implications
down ballot. The problem is the elections not for another
(10:18):
almost four months. A little under four months. So what
will happen between now and then?
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Who knows?
Speaker 4 (10:25):
Will President Trump stay disciplined? Will President Trump say something
or do something that all of a sudden shifts all
the media attention off of Biden.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And back onto Trump.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
The press would love to turn the worm against Donald Trump.
Or will Biden continue to think and Trump continue to
hold steady. That's what we're going to find out. No,
I mean, it's certainly.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I mean, it's just you know, wild times we're in politically,
and as you mentioned, there's just so many variables where
you know, we're obviously gauging where the race is today,
but you know, and he's also a waiting sentencing in
the book keeping case in New York, and you know
what happens with that. So I mean, there's just so much, uh,
you know, to be the termine in the race.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
What was interesting is there was this American Bridge.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Call and one of the donors on the call said
that Kamala Harris is more threatening to swing voters than
a dead Joe Biden or a comatost Joe Biden. I
don't know how they like, which is you know, probably
true actually, but like I don't know how they could
bypass Kamala as the VP if Joe Biden were to
(11:30):
step down, do you see a world where they could
bypass her? And then if it is Kamala, you know,
how do you think that reshapes this election?
Speaker 3 (11:40):
Well, one, I do.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
Think a new candidate would do better than Joe Biden
and alive and kicking, even if it's just barely Joe Biden.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
I think that the Democrats will go through civil war.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
It's going to be brutal, but at the end of it,
they're going to unify because they want to defeat Donald Trump.
So whoever they nominate is now going to be younger
than Donald Trump. There's going to be a kick in
their step of vigor in the party because they've got
somebody new, and they'll make up the money. All those
normal factors will surge to help the Democrats. So I
fear almost anybody as a new candidate, because Joe Biden
(12:15):
is their weakest candidate. If Biden's out, then I do
think it's going to go to Harris. I just think
for a Democratic party in its modern form, which places
no higher virtue than on your identity, politics, the chromosomes
and the color of your skin of which you were born.
That is more important to the Democrats than ideology than
(12:37):
anything else. How can they pass Kamala Harris up. I
just don't think they'll do it. And I think all
the stories, everything that we know about Kamala Harris, they're
just going to ignore. They're going to pretend she's popular
and rally behind her, and then it really becomes the
job of the Trump campaign and President Trump start to
shift to this last night a little bit rhetorically to
(12:58):
also remind people about what they don't like abou Kamala Harris.
How she's just a California Liberal who've got nothing done
as a California Attorney general, who's been a hapless vice president,
who made the border worse, and who can't even speak
English very well. So there's so much to work with Harris.
But I do think it would likely highly likely be her,
(13:21):
and that she'd be stronger than Joe Biden.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
And the media will you know, proper up probably in
ways we actually have.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It Morworth Ari.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
But first, since the start of the Swords of Iron
War in Israel in October seventh, we have seen death
and destruction in the Holy Land for more than forty years,
the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews has been on
the ground in Israel and with hours of the war starting,
and every day since, they've been feeding the hungary and
protecting the vulnerable. The attacks continue in the north and
(13:50):
in the south in Israel, but there are resilient survivors
who bravely share their stories. In a series the Fellowship
calls Faces of Iron survivors like Danny, who beloved daughter
and her husband were burned alive on October seventh by
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and rescue in his community. Despite fire equipment nearby, Danny
(14:12):
could do nothing as his daughter's house burned and his
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Speaker 2 (14:36):
You know I want to ask you this.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
You know, obviously you're working with people constantly and improving
the way they communicate, and you know you've done this
for a living for a very long time and are.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Incredibly good at it.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
The media has been trying to reboot Kamala Harris since
twenty twenty one. Why do you think she has so
much trouble connecting with voters for all the reasons.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
We watch on TV?
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Yeah, it's just not that intellectually bright. The things she says,
her loopy lexicon, her difficult way of putting two smart
thoughts together in the same paragraph.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
We see her and.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
People in California who know what she's like are among
her biggest critics. Elected leaders, party officials in California who
just know that she got appointed to everything and she's
really never been a solid, strong worker. Look at the
primary that she ran. It was a horrible primary. She
had to drop out before the first vote was cast.
(15:38):
But one thing she did that was memorable was tell
a story about how Joe Biden was a racist in
debate against Joe Biden. So what I like about politics, Lisa,
particularly on the presidential level, is voter see people for
who they really are. There's so much TV exposure that
you have to come across live. You come across samporaneous
(16:00):
unless you're Joe Biden, who just reads from a teleprompter
that people read you, they feel you, they know who
you are, and you can't pull one off over the voters.
That's going to be Harris's biggest problem.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
You know, we've seen obviously Donald Trump. You know there's
a strong reaction on both sides to him. But why
do you think he's able to connect with the people
who support him in a way that we don't typically
see politicians be able to connect with their supporters in
that way?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Like what kind of like makes his style unique?
Speaker 4 (16:34):
I think he's got two things. One is style and
the second is substance on style. It's the man is
so politically incorrect. The man is such a bull in
the china shop that for most people who can't stand politicians,
Donald Trump is their answer. He is finally someone who
comes along and just says it the way it's said,
(16:54):
it should be said, who isn't afraid to take on big,
complicated issues or groups, and it's refreshing. It's real America
as opposed to the gobblety cook that comes from Washington.
The second issue is substantive. People do remember how good
things were under Donald Trump, how there was peace, how
Russia didn't invade Ukraine, how Masten's attack Israel, they were scared,
(17:18):
and they were scared of Trump. How the border was
more secure, how strong the economy was, and particularly for
lower income Americans. So there are a lot of good
memories left over. And it's not a statistics game, Lisa.
This is where Biden's making the mistake of using this
data point and that data point to show how COVID
knocked it all out. But that's a reflection on Trump
(17:40):
and how Trump governed. No, people remember the way things
were prior to COVID, and they recognized COVID.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Just washed through our society, washed through the.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
World, and it was unfair to blame it on Trump
or anybody else. That helps Trump immeasurably. So I think
it's that combination of style, refreshing style, and substance. Now
I want to point out what Trump's done that's been brilliant,
is he has gained votes for Republicans in places Republicans
(18:10):
traditionally did not get votes. People making less than thirty
thousand dollars a year have swung toward Donald Trump. Romney
lost that group by twenty eight points. Trump lost them
by only eight points. Low income Americans. He'll do even
better in twenty twenty four. I predict he did way
better with Hispanic voters and with African American voters. McCain
got four percent of the African American vote, Romney got six. Trump,
(18:34):
the guy that Democrats call the races, got twelve. He
tripled McCain, doubled Romney, and again he'll do even better
in twenty twenty four. So he's grown the party in
a direction that the party needed to grow. But what
he's lost, and this is why if he's more disciplined
and smarter this cycle, we can get it back, is
(18:55):
the college educated suburban voter, particularly women. This has been
a group that's hemorrhaged for Republicans. These used to be
solid Republicans who are now independents who are voting for Biden.
And this is where if Trump doesn't gain enough with
low income Americans, Hispanic Americans, and Black Americans to offset
the losses in the suburbs, Biden could win.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So this is part.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Of the changing nature of politics too, and Republicans are gaining,
but we can't lose the suburbs the way we've been
losing the suburbs, you.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Know, and what's interesting and laying that all out is,
you know, like Joe Biden's whole mission statement essentially in
twenty twenty was I'm not Donald Trump, the other guy's worse,
you know. And now it's, as you pointed out, like
Americans are having Trump nostalgia and looking back at his administration,
you know, in a very positive way, especially compared to
(19:51):
how they're viewing their current situation with Joe Biden.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And we're saying, you know, and even just.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
The discussion around Joe Biden and they feel drop out,
you know. With Democrats, it's the well, it's a threat
to democracy, like Trump is such a threat to democracy
that you know, we need the strongest candidate. Do you
think that the threats to democracy narrative does that land
with voters?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
How effective do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (20:17):
It's a great rallying cry for the Democrats.
Speaker 4 (20:20):
For anybody who thinks January seventh was is the biggest
issue and that Trump would do it again, it's a help.
That's a really strong rallying cry for that block.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I think for a.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Lot of independents who are still open minded, it's not
you know, when I hear threat to democracy, my first
thought is Colorado, Illinois, and Maine trying to throw Donald
Trump off the ballot because they tried to call him
an insurrectionist, something none of the trespactors and the rioters
on January seventh were accused of. None of them were
accused of insurrection, but that's enough for them to throw
(20:55):
Donald Trump off the ballot. There are a lot of
other threats to democracy, like Joe Biden and ignorance Supreme
Court rulings and trying to get people to have no
college debt to pay to make blue collar workers pay
for college educated voters so they.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Don't have any debts.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Biden's defying the courts and bragging about it. So if
you want to run threats to democracy, Democrats have some
planet to do.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
But it's a rallying cry. I don't think it goes
beyond that for the Democrats.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
They were even you know, trying to throw them in
jail and bankrupt them as they have with you know,
which is pretty remarkable that we're here as a country,
you know, and looking back to your time as White
House prospectory and then sort of observing the media now,
how I mean, how much has changed. I'm sure that's
(21:48):
probably a pretty loaded question. But you know, I imagine
that that's got to be pretty crazy for you to
like think back about your time and then now look
at the current environment, like, how has it changed. Why
do you think it's changed. I'd love to just kind
of get your insight on that.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Well, everything has changed.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
The biggest change is when I was Press secretary, if
there was something on.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
The front page of the New York Times, you had
to deal with it.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
It was going to affect voters. It was going to
affect Republicans. It certainly affected all the press core.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
It was big.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Now Republicans can ignore whatever is in the New York
Times and most of the mainstream media. We have just
so cratered in terms of reading and viewing habits. The
major media has lost so many subscribers and viewers, and
those people are overwhelmingly Republicans and independents. The New York
Times is now a memo written by essentially college educated
(22:48):
Democratic voters for fellow college educated Democratic voters.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
It's just these talking to d's.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
It's talking points for producers and executive producers and bookers
TV shows.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Because they read the New York Times, they.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Just drive around the same narrow, ideological cul de sac
talking to each other. That's what's changed to Lisa. There
was no Politico, there was no Axios, there was no
social media. There was no Facebook, no Twitter, no YouTube.
When I was Press secretary. Now Canada's running for office,
(23:25):
can and should build their own You need to build
your own list of followers. You need to build your
own list of viewers. You need to put together your
own videos. That would have been called government propaganda when
I was Press secretary. Now you build your own videos,
get it out on your own networks and communicate that way.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
The world is different.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Has the media ever been objective?
Speaker 4 (23:49):
Yes, and I say it hesitantly because they've always been liberal.
But they were trained, even the liberals, to say are
a job is to report straight down the middle and
tell the news fairly to both sides. And I think
that they largely tried to do that in the eighties, nineties,
(24:11):
early two thousand's, really prior to the polarization of the
Internet and social media. But the stories they covered because
they were liberal, were liberal stories. Their points of view
were still liberal points of view. You had so few
conservatives in the media. Ed pages used to be much
more balanced and fair. That is really gone. TV shows,
(24:35):
you know Fox News, It used to be Hannity and Combs,
if you remember Sean Hannity along with a very liberal
co anchor. Now, of course it's just Hannity. The media
is gone in that direction. But I do think there
used to be a time when at least they tried
to be more balanced. And as a press secretary who
(24:55):
started on Capitol Hill in the eighties and worked in
the House to send it and then the White House
from the early eighties to the early two thousands, I
did get a fair hearing. I could pound the table
and make my case. I had to work harder than
any Democrat did because of the liberal nature of the press,
but it was achievable. Now you don't even try. You
(25:16):
don't need to, you know.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
It also seems that, I mean, the whole world has
changed since you Trump went down the Golden escalator, and
the media has obviously changed a lot as well. It
seems like he's broken much of the media. Why do
you think they hate him so much?
Speaker 4 (25:38):
They did this to themselves. First of all, they did
it to themselves because number one, newsrooms are so overwhelmingly
liberal and they're alient to conservative thought. Look at how
many stories it's just about the few conservatives who try
to go into a newsroom and they got drummed out
of the newsroom. Remember when Ben Shapiro got hired by
Politico for one day just to be kind of a
(26:00):
guest editor, and it led to an uproar in the newsroom.
We can't have a known conservative be here, but they
can have known liberals. So they've done it to themselves
by being who they are, and they're comfortable being who
they are. They don't want a farg an injection of
conservatism or even neutrality to infect them.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Two, they've become activists.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
So if you're a liberal and you keep your mouth shut, okay,
you occupy the newsroom and your story selection is liberal,
but at least you're not an activist. Well that's over now.
They're activists for liberal and progressive causes. And that's what
turned them against Trump. Trump came along bull in the
China Shop, and the press can't stand him. It was reflexive.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
It was they.
Speaker 4 (26:52):
Abandoned neutrality, They abandoned half the country. And they wonder
why they lost viewers and readers. It's because they don't
reflect America. They don't look like America, they don't sound
like America. I think the media is dramatically out of
touch ideologically. And there's a pewpole that I'm familiar with
came out about three years ago that ask the American people,
(27:16):
do you feel the media understands people like you? So
what goes beyond bias? It goes to beyond ideology. Do
they understand people like you, your way of life, who
you are. There was only one group of Americans who
said the press understands people like me, and it was
college educated Democrats. If you were a college graduate, I'm sorry.
(27:40):
If you were a Democrat with a high school diploma,
you didn't think the press understood people like you. Independence,
college or high school press doesn't understand me.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
And of course.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
Republicans and Lisa, the group that is understood the least
by the press and they don't care are people who hunt,
people who fish, people collect guns, people who pray every day.
These are the people that the media really has a
hard time identifying with. They can parachute into those communities,
(28:10):
do a story and leave, but they're not from that group.
They're not of those people. It's the alien lifestyle. Yees
for the majority of Americans, it is their lifestyle. But
the press is out of touch, and that's why people
tell polsters the press don't understand people like me.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
I've got a quick commercial break more with Ari Fleischer
on the other side, even just look at, you know,
the way the media pushed the you know, Russia Gates
story back in twenty sixteen, and then you had the
fifty one intelligence officers and the media telling us, oh,
this is most likely Russian disinformation, or just how unquestioning
(28:50):
they were during COVID, just you know, pushing those narratives
and then also going after anyone who had a counter
narrative or you know, who were a contrarian during that
period of time. And then you know, even just more
recently telling us that these videos of Joe Biden just
showing him doing you know, normal things but obviously appearing
to be of old age and you know, having trouble cognitively,
(29:13):
that those were cheap fakes, you know, and then we
find out with these radio hosts are just taking the
questions from the White House is there does the media
ever regain trust or do you think the media landscape
is just going to look a lot different moving forward?
Speaker 4 (29:34):
They won't regain trust for decades. They won't regain trust
until journalism schools recognize how lopsided, one sided virtually all
of them are. And until let's start welcoming people who hunt, fish,
have guns, pray all that to pray every day. Until
they have a newsroom that looks like America, they're not
(29:55):
going to represent America and they don't want it to
make that change.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
I've come to.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The Columbia Journalism School twice now and did lectures for
aspiring journalists, and at the end of each time, I
asked him the previous presidential election, who'd you vote for?
Hands up if you voted for Hillary or if you
voted for Trump. Every hand up for Hillary. I did
it twenty years ago, thirty years ago when it was
the Bob Dole election against Bill Clinton, and I roomed
(30:24):
twelve Columbia journalists and I said, how many of you
voted for Bill Clinton? Eleven hands went up. So I
said to the twelfth guy, so you one person voted
for Bob Dole And he looked at me, said no,
I voted for Ralph Nader. I mean this is indicative
of the future of journalism, and it's unchanged, it's unbowed.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
It is activist.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And just watch, especially if Trump wins, you're going to
have hostile media coming after Trump with guns blazing. I
can remember one day of the press going after Biden
with guns blazing, and it was this week when they
went after Curn Jean Pierre for not being able to
answer the questions about neurologists who came to the White House.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
That was it.
Speaker 4 (31:11):
That was basically every day for me for my briefings.
That was every day for Trump's people for their briefings.
But they're not like that. One of the Democrats in
the White House. They weren't like that when Obama was
in the White House. Shoot, more than two dozen of them,
active working journalists, not columnists, not opinion writers went to
(31:31):
the White House or the Obama administration to become officials. No,
that's not going to change for decades. And this is
why I made the point at least about how things
have changed. It used to matter. It doesn't matter anymore.
Republicans can win without the New York Times, the Washington Post,
NBCCBS or ABC, and Trump's.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
About to prove it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Anything else that we've missed in this conversation any observations
you'd like to leave us with, or anything you'd like
to leave us with before we go.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Well, one big caveat, and as good as things are
right now, I continue to think this is going to
be a finger biting close election where we're going to
be up late on election night or into the next day.
It's been a great couple of months for President Trump,
but Republicans should realize tide comes in, the tide goes out,
(32:21):
and it's been a favorable tide, but it does not
last forever. And Republicans better run the best campaigns, the
most disciplined campaigns if they want to win in November.
This thing is by no means over or close to
being over.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I agree, Ari, a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's always an honor to talk with you, and it's
an honor to have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I just really appreciate your time.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
You're the best pleason.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Great to tell it was Ari Flaischer. I always love
being on out Numbered with him. Really appreciate him making
the time to come on the show. Appreciate you guys
at home for listening every Monday and Thursday, but you
can listen throughout the week. I want to thank John Cassio,
my producer, for putting the show together Until next time.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
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