In this episode, Lisa and China expert Gordon Chang discuss the growing threat of China’s global ambitions, focusing on its strategic partnership with Iran, military provocations near Taiwan, and interference in the 2020 U.S. election. Chang warns of Chinese nationals attempting to infiltrate the U.S. and the risk of bioweapons targeting American agriculture. The episode underscores the need for vigilance, strong leadership, and economic decoupling from China to protect U.S. interests and national security in the face of increasing Chinese aggression. The Truth with Lisa Boothe is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Thursday.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we cut
through the noise to try to get to the heart
of what matters today. We're diving into the growing threat
of China's global ambitions with renowned China expert Gordon Chang.
From China's troubling alliance with Iran particularly at this time,
including suspicious cargo flights and a four hundred billion dollar partnership,
(00:21):
to espionage, to bio weapons smuggling, to farmland purchases near
United States military.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Basis, We're going to explore all of it. We're also, by.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
The way, that recent announcement from FBI Director Cash Bettel
that China potentially sought to influence the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
What's that about?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
What do you need to know? We'll also talk about
China's desire and you know, looking at Taiwan as well.
Where does President Trump's resilient and strong attack against Iran
leave those ambitions? So we've got a lot to unpack,
a lot to get into and who better to talk
about all things China than Gordon Chang.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, Gordon, it's great to have you on the show.
First time on the show. Obviously a lot's been happening
in the world, So I'm really interested in getting your
perspective on the China element of everything. So I appreciate
you making the time.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, thank you so much, Lisa. So I want to get.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Into you know, obviously we've been watching everything happening and
unfold in the Middle East over I guess it's been
a week and a half so far. You know, we
were joking before it kind of feels like we're living
in dog years. Everything is just you know, moving so quickly.
But you know, China and Iran signed a twenty five
year partnership, this sort of strategic pack talk about how
(01:50):
does that shape what we're seeing happen in the Middle East,
specifically with Iran, Like, what is China's role been in this,
what is China's role and you know, does that deal
impact anything?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Walk us through that. You're referring to the twenty twenty
one agreement, which was twenty five year strategic comprehensive partnership
agreement where China, among other things, agreed to invest four
hundred billion dollars into Iran. The Iranians complain that the
Chinese and this has been traditional, very much of what
(02:25):
they have done in the past. The Chinese have not
honored their part of the bargain. They have not been
putting money into Iran as the Iranians expected. But there's
a broader context here, And if I can walk back
a couple of years, we go back to March twenty
twenty three. That's when China broker and historic pack between
(02:46):
Saudi Arabia and Iran for the re establishment of diplomatic
relations and the patching up of ties in general. And
then it looked like China was driving events in the
region and the US was not. That the US was
withdrawing and China was taking over. And this was true
even up to July of last year, when China got
(03:08):
fourteen Palestinian factions to actually traveled to the Chinese capital
and inc the Beijing Declaration, which is a unity pact,
and then it just China was dominant. But what's happened
since then has been a stunning reversal of fortunes for Beijing.
And what we're seeing now is that those two historic
(03:31):
accomplishments are in tatters. Saudi Arabia and Iran are very
much at odds right now, and that Beijing Declaration fell apart,
because a week afterwards a bomb in an a Hamas
guest house in Tran killed Ishmael Hania, the political leader
of Hamas. So really China has been in trouble in
(03:55):
the last couple months. China has lost Saudia Arabia, it's
lost Syria, it's lost Katar, and it's now because of
the war losing Iran. So China is just in disarray
in the Middle East, where once it looked like it
was going to take over. Part of this is because
(04:17):
President Trump's diplomacy with regard to the region has been
spectacularly successful, as it was during his first term. You
go back in the first term, we had the four
Abraham Accords, two in the Middle East, two in nearby
North Africa. Joe Biden came into office pledging to make
Saudi Arabia a pariah. So our relations with our traditional
(04:40):
Sunni friends in the region just fell apart. But Trump
has been able to reverse that damage. He had it
a historic trip through the three Gulf States last month.
And just in general, we see Israel taking a part Iran.
One other thing in in terms of general background, and
(05:01):
that is that China fully backed to RAN's assault on
Israel starting in October seventh and twenty twenty three, we
saw China's full in support for the attack on the
Jewish state. We know that Iran and its three main
terrorist proxies Hamas has blown the Huthi militia, all have
(05:23):
large quantities of Chinese weapons. Iran's own weapons are made
with Chinese microchips. China has been providing diplomatic support, propaganda support,
and China takes more than ninety percent of Iran's exports
of crude oil. You put this all together, China has
lost its friends in the Middle East. See, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
How you lay that all out and piece it all together,
because you know, President Trump is constantly underestimated, and in reality,
he's very thoughtful, and so as you pointed out just
even just the recent you know, trip to the Middle
East with the Golf States, of how impactful that has
(06:06):
been about trying to sort of isolate China and to
re establish America as you know, the global superpower and leader.
And so he's very smart and how and also or
China is Iran's top oil buyer, So how is this
war impacting China from an oil perspective?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, I think the Chinese must be in a panic
right now. Remember the fifty percent of China's oil transits
the Strait of Hormones, and just about thirty six hours
or so ago, the Iranian parliament back the closing of
the strait. Now, I don't think that will happen, largely
(06:48):
because the Chinese are backers of Iran, and this would
impact China in a way of basically taking down its economy.
It would have to in very short order drain its
strategic petroleum reserve, something that Biging, which is preparing for
war in general, just doesn't want to do. So this
(07:09):
is a pressure point, and it is one which the
Chinese are very keen, uh, very aware of, and it
should be one that we're aware of as well, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
And China uses sort of like financial investments throughout the
world to make inroads and you know, to a sort
of establish dominance. We're sort of seeing President Trump, you know,
do a lot of that, particularly in the Middle East,
with a lot of these financial deals that he announced
upon leaving, particularly with Saudi Arabia and Gatar as well.
You know, as he said that the paths in the
Middle East this through commerce, not chaos.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You know, I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Under the biod administration, we saw a lot of Chinese
nationals try to cross the southern border and also enter
into the country as well.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Why are they doing that?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
What's what is the purpose, what's the what's the intention
behind that.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
During the Biden years, we saw this almost unprecedented, actually
unprecedented surge of Chinese migrants into the US, primarily through
the southern border. And in the beginning of this surge,
it really looked like these were desperate Chinese who wanted
to live in our country. But towards the middle and
end of this the composition of the Chinese migrants changed
(08:24):
and it became I think ominous. What we were seeing
were towards the middle and end of the Biden years,
packs of Chinese males of four to fifteen military age,
traveling without family members, some of them pretending not to
speak English. Border Patrol knows that some of them had
(08:45):
links to the Chinese military, And in the very last
months of the Biden administration, some of these packs were
coming across Lisa with identical kit so that gives us
a hint of what's going on. Also, we have a
problem in our northern border. So in February of last year,
(09:06):
border patrol and apprehended three Chinese migrants trying to sneak
in under the cover of darkness into Maine. What made
this particularly disturbing was that there was a fourth Chinese
national on our side, again, a migrant who was obviously
thereby pre arrangement to help them get in. Now, if
(09:26):
you're desperate Chinese who wants to live in a free society,
the first thing you do is you surrendered a border patrol,
try to get yourself into the asylum queue. Also get
benefits from New York City and other places. So if
you're coming in and you're trying to avoid detection, which
is what these three were trying to do, then you're
(09:47):
coming here for some nefarious purpose. We know that there
has been as this migrant surge has occurred, there's also
been a big uptick in Chinese nationals trying sneak into
our military bases, some of them successfully. We have also
seen illicit Chinese surveillance of our military facilities and Chinese
(10:09):
surveillance of our infrastructure. So clearly what's occurring is that
these elements Chinese military, maybe Ministry of State Security, they
are studying our patterns. They're looking for our vulnerabilities. In
other words, they're planning to strike. So we should assume
that one of the first signs that there will be
(10:32):
war in East Asia will be actually an attack on
the United States from our own soil. And by the way, Lisa,
this will be the first time since the War of
eighteen twelve that Americans will have had to fight a
foreign enemy on their own soil in a sustained battle.
So let's be sure that we understand what's coming, because
(10:54):
all the elements for the attack are already in place.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Got to take a quick commercial break worth Gordon Chang.
On the other side, how does President Trump's response to
Iran and dropping those bombs in Iran and sort of
like the show of force and the fact that we
now have leadership in the United States again and that
he means red lines and when he says sixty days,
(11:20):
sixty days is meaningful. You know what message does that
send China? Like does that make them less hesitant to
try to do anything under President Trump's tenure? You know,
would it be are they more wait and see to
you know, kind of see what happens with the next election,
or you know from what you laid out about this
attack from China. How does President Trump's you know, peace
(11:43):
through Strength and this response impact China's decision making.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That's the most important question that anyone is asking, and unfortunately,
of course, we don't know the answer. I think that
in the Middle East, China doesn't have the firepower, either
literally or figuratively, to challenge the United States, but it
does have the ability to help Iran by disrupting East Asia.
(12:12):
On the nineteenth of this month, China began air incursions
against Taiwan, which had been quiet up to then. We
saw starting on the nineteenth, seventy four Chinese planes get
near Taiwan's airspace. Sixty one of them crossed the Median Line.
That's the line down the middle of the Taiwan Strait,
(12:36):
which has generally been considered the unofficial border between China
and Taiwan. So China's sending planes east of the Median
line is considered to be a provocative act, and since
that time, China's continued the air incursions. The number of
planes that have gotten near Taiwan is now up to
about ninety or so, and at the same time on
(12:57):
the nineteenth, that same day that the air Camp Pain started,
the Philippine Coast Guard announced that there were more than
fifty of China's maritime militia boats flooding into Philippine waters
at Iroquois Reef in the South China Sea. So this
is China. I'm maybe trying to take advantage of what's
(13:18):
going on in the rest of the world, or trying
to back off the Trump administration. But there's one other thing, though,
and this is showing what you were talking about before
about the effectiveness of Trump policy, and that is on
the twenty first, the day that Israel started, that we
(13:38):
bombed those three nuclear sites in Iran, Reuters reported that
the Pentagon told the news service that the United States
was sending B twos to Guam, and at the time, everybody,
including me, thought that this was the final warning to Iran.
But as we look back at this sequence of events,
(14:01):
we can understand that B two's in Guam would not
be of military relevance for an attack on Iran for
a lot of reasons, but they would be of relevance
for backing off China. So I think that that the
Pentagon leaking this to Reuter's was essentially Trump's way of
(14:22):
telling the Chinese don't even think about it. I don't
know that, but when we look at what's occurred, it's
appeared that that was President Trump's message to the Chinese leadership.
Is China?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Is it fair to say that China is somewhat cautious,
like you know, they're not as a little bit more
cautious than you know ran which you know, they're kind
of like crazy, and you know what I mean? Is
that fair to say that they're a little bit more
thoughtful about things, a little more cautious.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
They are thoughtful, but sometimes their thinking leads them to
do things which are really dangerous. And we have seen
this with Chinese provocations against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines,
and even far away Australia. And what I worry about
is that one of those low level provocations spirals out
(15:18):
of control, and if it does, then we probably are
headed for war in East Asia because the Chinese political
system is now configured so that only the most hostile
answers are considered acceptable, which means that China can't deal
with the rest of the world in a responsible way.
If there is a crisis and China is provoking these
(15:39):
crises just basically hoping that everybody backs off, but there
could be clearly miscalculation. And we have seen very belligerent
Chinese activity in the skies over East Asia, challenging Australians
and US are planes, and one of those could one
(16:00):
of those incidents could go wrong, just as it went
wrong on April first, two thousand and one, the EP
three plane incident. And that incident was solved only because
the Bush administration made unacceptable concessions to China, and so
we disused it by basically surrendering. I don't think that
(16:23):
we're going to do that again. We shouldn't have done it.
Then that opened the way I think to showing China
that belligerence works. We can't afford to do that again.
And I hope President Trump would not adopt such a
submissive position as George W. Bush did in two thousand
and one. But if we don't, it means there will
(16:44):
be a crisis. The crisis will heat up, and this
will be one of those consequential moments in history.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Well, you know, we've got the right man in charge
for these moments, in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
FBI Director Cash Ptel sort of dropped an interesting bomb
earlier this month, declassifying a twenty twenty internal FBI intelligence
document and sharing it with the Senate Judiciary Committee, and
it claims that the Chinese Communist Party produced counterfeit US
driver's licenses and shipped them to the United States during
(17:23):
the twenty twenty election with the intent to try to
help Joe Biden allegedly.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
What do you know about that? Does that add up?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And to what extent? To what extent did China try
to influence the outcome of the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We know, in general China was very involved in the
presidential election in twenty twenty. It supported Joe Biden over
Bernie Sanders and the Democratic primaries, and it supported Biden
over Trump in the general election. And China went all
in on social media, both that we could see in
(18:01):
that which was meant not to be seen. We know
from New York Times reporting that China was using text
messages spreading false and very damaging rumors about President Trump,
especially in connection with the Stafford Act. But China used Twitter,
Facebook and it's other social media instruments, and they really
(18:25):
went after Trump. We saw some really dangerous, very provocative
acts on the part of China in twenty twenty. They
were counterfeiting US currency and trying to smuggle it into
the US. They were smuggling in automatic weapons parts, which
takes basically permits someone to convert a gun into an
(18:50):
automatic weapon. We also saw something even worse, and that
was Radio Free Asia reported in August twenty twenty. Eligence
Unit of the People's Liberation Army actually based themselves in
the now closed Houston consulate and from there they used
big data to identify Americans likely to participate in violent protests,
(19:11):
and then they sent those Americans' videos on how to riot.
And we've learned from related reporting that those tailor made
videos were tiktoks. Also, there was a Chinese official who
openly on Twitter in October of twenty twenty advocated Americans
(19:32):
to commit acts of violence and specifically to throw petrol
bombs on American streets. These are acts of war. And
so you put that cash Betel's revelation of the fake
driver's licenses, it fits within a pattern, and that pattern
was very effective. One can argue that China elected Joe
(19:54):
Biden in twenty twenty, So we've got to understand the
significance of this.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Does China own the Biden family considering the financial entanglements, it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Certainly influences the Biden family. What we know. You know,
I can't get into the minds of Joe Biden, but
you can see what happened. The Chinese regime poured something
like two point three or so million dollars into the
hands of Hunter Biden, and he did so under circumstances
(20:29):
that scream corruption. So for instance, and this is admitted
by Hunter Biden's legal team, that they received money as
good faith seed funds. Now, in commercial context, nobody would
pay money as a good faith seed fund less of
all the Chinese unless they were trying to bribe the
(20:50):
Biden family. So yes, I think that they certainly influenced
the Biden family and influenced Joe Biden's decision. And you know,
of course there was the money through the Penn Center
at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm sure that there was
money that leaked in through other ways. We know the
(21:12):
Chinese themselves believe that they bought the Biden family. Chinese
professor d Dung Chong in November of twenty twenty gave
a livestream lecture throughout China that talked about China's attempts
to influence the Biden family. Just to give you a
sense of what he said, he said, basically, no American
(21:32):
could stand up to the Chinese because they could buy
every American. And he said d Dung Chung said that
China's traditional means of exerting influence at the highest levels
of the American political system had been broken because Trump
during his time in the first term in office wasn't
(21:52):
listening to Wall Street or Henry Kissinger, but that the
Chinese then, remember this is after the twenty twenty election,
the Chinese then looking again to re establish those links.
And d Dongsheng got his biggest laugh of his lecture
when he mentioned the Chinese characters for Hunter Biden. So
(22:13):
we know what the Chinese felt about this and how
they looked at it.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
And we also all know about Representative Swalwell and his relationship,
and then also about Dianne Feinstein employing a Chinese spy
as a driver for I think it was like twenty
years or something. So if that's just what we know about,
then you know what else has happened that we don't
know about, right so.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Absolutely, and Swalwell is a really instructive case. I mean,
I don't know it was in Swalwell's mind, so I
don't assume that he's well.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
He's a man, So I think I have an idea.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, Well, let me say this. China's Ministry of State Security,
in the form of the very should I say, good
looking attractive agent Christine Wong, first contacted Swalwell, not when
he was on the House Intelligence Committee, where he would
(23:11):
have been of great benefit for China. The Administry of
State Security first contacted Swalwell when he was sitting on
the City Council of Dublin City, California. And that means
I can't believe that Swalwell was the only person being groomed,
because clearly he was being groomed. I'm not saying he
(23:32):
gave into and gave valuable information to China, but I
am saying this is not about Swalwell in this sense
so much. This is about the China's pervasive efforts because
there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of Swalwell's in our
country where China has contacted them at a very early
stage in their careers. And we know that Christine Fong.
(23:54):
She was not partisan. She was up to corrupting Republicans
as well as she in fact did it. So this
is this is a bipartisan problem. And of course we
have had some of former Republican officials lobby directly for China,
which is disgraceful. So this is a bipartisan problem. We've
(24:17):
got a problem on both sides of the political divide.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
We've also seen another, you know, some really troubling incidents
with agroterrorism concerns and and bioweapons. I know you've written
about it and you've raised the alarm about it with
some Chinese nationals being caught trying to smuggle in some
toxic fungus into the United States.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Walk us through that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Uh, you know, what do you think the broader strategy
is for China here? How much of a threat are
we already facing with us? And kind of what does
it all mean?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
China means to destroy American agriculture and American ranching, and
this is part of their just unrestricted warfare campaign, their
total war against the United States. I mean, this month,
three Chinese researchers risk their careers by trying to smuggle
in biological agents into the United States. The first two
(25:17):
who were charged were trying to We're working with a fungus,
and you know, people can say, well, this fungus is
common throughout the world, so this can't be a big deal. Well, yes,
it can be a big deal if this fungus was
genetically modified, which I believe it must have been, because
(25:39):
why would they risk their careers to do this. So
if China is able to own farmland, which it does,
it would be able to take a genetically modified agent,
which is probably more resistant to pesticides, was probably easier
spread and decimate American agriculture. This headblight that this fungus
(26:04):
goes after wheat barley. I think it's rice maze, and
it causes reproductive problems and vomiting in animals and humans.
This has got to be seen in the context that
for at least a half decade, China has been trying
to plant invasive species in our countries. So in twenty twenty,
(26:28):
Americans in all fifty states receive seeds from Chinese parties unsolicited,
and so that is a real warning sign and that
efforts continued because this year Team mod, the online Chinese retailer,
was caught sending seeds unsolicited into the US, and in
one case, a Chinese party sent in a container of
(26:52):
unknown liquid to an American unsolicited. So yeah, they're trying
to take down our agriculture and our ranching.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Is that terrorism, Well, the FBI the Eastern District of
Michigan called the fungus that was brought in an agro
terrorist agent.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm not so sure that terror. You know, terror. When
I think of terror, I think of physical violence. But
this was this was worse in a sense, more dangerous
to the United States than an active terrorism or most
acts of terrorism. So this was this was an attack
(27:37):
on the United States. This was an act of war,
and that's I think that's the best way to characterize it,
you know, to put this into context. I'm sorry for
going on here, but I want to know it's please.
In May twenty nineteen, People's Daily, which is the most
authoritative publication in China, carried a landmark editorial that declared
(27:59):
a quotquote people's war on us. We Americans didn't notice
because we don't think very much a propaganda, but this
phrase people's war has great importance in Communist Party thought,
and in twenty twenty three, PLA Daily, which is the
main propaganda organ of the Chinese military, helpfully defined People's
(28:20):
war as quote unquote total war. We know that China,
although it denies it, China has a doctrine of unrestricted warfare,
which comes from the title of that nineteen ninety nine
book by then two Chinese Air Force colonels, which argued
that China could do anything to take down the US.
And you mentioned terrorism. That book talks about Bin Laden
(28:42):
hitting the US. Remember this is two years before nine
to eleven. China publicly talks about getting Bin Laden to
attack US. And by the way, China's had at that
time had very strong relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan.
So yeah, we have to understand that we're under attack
(29:05):
and these are acts of war, and so far no
president has taken the necessary steps to protect us from
this with the vigor and determination that's necessary. And I
hope President Trump starts to take more determined steps against
China because we are on the edge of pretty catastrophic
(29:25):
events and President Trump can stop it, but we need
to have the American public behind him. So this should
be an all of society effort.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Quick break, stay with us, and then before we go
I've got to get your take on the tariffs back
and forth between President Trump and China, sort of what's
your broader perspective on what has taken place so far?
And also where is that heading? How much can we
(29:57):
extract from China? Sort of how do you see this
playing out?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, I believe that we need to have high tariffs
on China as to impose costs for the theft of
US intellectual property and for increasingly predatory trade practices. So
I was very happy to see President Trump put tariffs
on China, the general one hundred and forty five percent rate,
in some cases two hundred and forty five percent when
(30:24):
you added the other tariffs on. I didn't like the
May twelfth agreement that was announced. The Chinese have violated
that agreement with continuing its ban on exports of rare
earths to American companies. President Trump needs to actually impose
(30:45):
some severe costs on China for violating that agreement. So far,
he hasn't, and I'm looking forward to him pivoting because
the Chinese have taken their measure of him. And I'm
not saying this is right, because I don't believe it's right.
But the Chinese believe that they can force Trump to
back down on things like TikTok and tariffs, and so
(31:10):
Trump needs to disabuse them of that notion because if
he doesn't, this is going to work out very badly
for US. I believe President Trump actually believes in tariffs.
We know that during the campaign he was talking about
McKinley and the history of tariffs, which means he really
believes it. So I hope that he guts back to
(31:32):
his instincts and hits the Chinese hard for continuing for
their continuing to hit us.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah, I mean he's been talking about them since like
the seventies or the eighties.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I think.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Then the last question before we go, what is possible
in trying to untangle ourselves from China's economy? You know,
what is doable? What is possible? And does President Trump
of interest in doing that?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Do you mean supply chains? Pardon sir?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, just try just trying to untangle. Obviously, we're so
reliant on China from an economic standpoint. Obviously we just
talked about tariffs as well, but like, how do we
decouple from China?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Is it even possible?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
And what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's certainly as possible. I mean, we had a really
we had no trade relationship with China, and we built one.
So if it can be built, it can be taken apart.
Treasury Secretary Bessant has actually said that we need strategic decoupling,
in other words, things like rare earths and other things
that we absolutely depend upon. I think President Trump really
(32:38):
believes that there should be a bigger decoupling, though he
has not in fact said that, but clearly his actions
have started the decoupling process. And he did that in
his first term with the tariffs that he imposed in
twenty eighteen. So clearly this is something. This is long
held views, and so I do believe that we will
(33:00):
see further decoupling. And part of it, you know, Lisa,
is not just US. It's the Chinese pushing American companies
out of China. So it's both push and pull, and
I believe it will happen, especially because as China threatens
to go to war, even C suites are going to
understand that they've got to get their companies out of China.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Really interesting stuff, scary, but very interesting. We appreciate your
sharing your expertise with us. Gordon Chang really really interesting.
Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, I really appreciate it, Lisa, and thanks so much.
And stay safe.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for making the time
to come on the show. Appreciate you guys at home
for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen
throughout the week until next time.
Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we cut
through the noise to try to get to the heart
of what matters today. We're diving into the growing threat
of China's global ambitions with renowned China expert Gordon Chang.
From China's troubling alliance with Iran particularly at this time,
including suspicious cargo flights and a four hundred billion dollar partnership,
(00:21):
to espionage, to bio weapons smuggling, to farmland purchases near
United States military.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Basis, We're going to explore all of it. We're also, by.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
The way, that recent announcement from FBI Director Cash Bettel
that China potentially sought to influence the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
What's that about?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
What do you need to know? We'll also talk about
China's desire and you know, looking at Taiwan as well.
Where does President Trump's resilient and strong attack against Iran
leave those ambitions? So we've got a lot to unpack,
a lot to get into and who better to talk
about all things China than Gordon Chang.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Well, Gordon, it's great to have you on the show.
First time on the show. Obviously a lot's been happening
in the world, So I'm really interested in getting your
perspective on the China element of everything. So I appreciate
you making the time.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, thank you so much, Lisa. So I want to get.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Into you know, obviously we've been watching everything happening and
unfold in the Middle East over I guess it's been
a week and a half so far. You know, we
were joking before it kind of feels like we're living
in dog years. Everything is just you know, moving so quickly.
But you know, China and Iran signed a twenty five
year partnership, this sort of strategic pack talk about how
(01:50):
does that shape what we're seeing happen in the Middle East,
specifically with Iran, Like, what is China's role been in this,
what is China's role and you know, does that deal
impact anything?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Walk us through that. You're referring to the twenty twenty
one agreement, which was twenty five year strategic comprehensive partnership
agreement where China, among other things, agreed to invest four
hundred billion dollars into Iran. The Iranians complain that the
Chinese and this has been traditional, very much of what
(02:25):
they have done in the past. The Chinese have not
honored their part of the bargain. They have not been
putting money into Iran as the Iranians expected. But there's
a broader context here, And if I can walk back
a couple of years, we go back to March twenty
twenty three. That's when China broker and historic pack between
(02:46):
Saudi Arabia and Iran for the re establishment of diplomatic
relations and the patching up of ties in general. And
then it looked like China was driving events in the
region and the US was not. That the US was
withdrawing and China was taking over. And this was true
even up to July of last year, when China got
(03:08):
fourteen Palestinian factions to actually traveled to the Chinese capital
and inc the Beijing Declaration, which is a unity pact,
and then it just China was dominant. But what's happened
since then has been a stunning reversal of fortunes for Beijing.
And what we're seeing now is that those two historic
(03:31):
accomplishments are in tatters. Saudi Arabia and Iran are very
much at odds right now, and that Beijing Declaration fell apart,
because a week afterwards a bomb in an a Hamas
guest house in Tran killed Ishmael Hania, the political leader
of Hamas. So really China has been in trouble in
(03:55):
the last couple months. China has lost Saudia Arabia, it's
lost Syria, it's lost Katar, and it's now because of
the war losing Iran. So China is just in disarray
in the Middle East, where once it looked like it
was going to take over. Part of this is because
(04:17):
President Trump's diplomacy with regard to the region has been
spectacularly successful, as it was during his first term. You
go back in the first term, we had the four
Abraham Accords, two in the Middle East, two in nearby
North Africa. Joe Biden came into office pledging to make
Saudi Arabia a pariah. So our relations with our traditional
(04:40):
Sunni friends in the region just fell apart. But Trump
has been able to reverse that damage. He had it
a historic trip through the three Gulf States last month.
And just in general, we see Israel taking a part Iran.
One other thing in in terms of general background, and
(05:01):
that is that China fully backed to RAN's assault on
Israel starting in October seventh and twenty twenty three, we
saw China's full in support for the attack on the
Jewish state. We know that Iran and its three main
terrorist proxies Hamas has blown the Huthi militia, all have
(05:23):
large quantities of Chinese weapons. Iran's own weapons are made
with Chinese microchips. China has been providing diplomatic support, propaganda support,
and China takes more than ninety percent of Iran's exports
of crude oil. You put this all together, China has
lost its friends in the Middle East. See, it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
How you lay that all out and piece it all together,
because you know, President Trump is constantly underestimated, and in reality,
he's very thoughtful, and so as you pointed out just
even just the recent you know, trip to the Middle
East with the Golf States, of how impactful that has
(06:06):
been about trying to sort of isolate China and to
re establish America as you know, the global superpower and leader.
And so he's very smart and how and also or
China is Iran's top oil buyer, So how is this
war impacting China from an oil perspective?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Well, I think the Chinese must be in a panic
right now. Remember the fifty percent of China's oil transits
the Strait of Hormones, and just about thirty six hours
or so ago, the Iranian parliament back the closing of
the strait. Now, I don't think that will happen, largely
(06:48):
because the Chinese are backers of Iran, and this would
impact China in a way of basically taking down its economy.
It would have to in very short order drain its
strategic petroleum reserve, something that Biging, which is preparing for
war in general, just doesn't want to do. So this
(07:09):
is a pressure point, and it is one which the
Chinese are very keen, uh, very aware of, and it
should be one that we're aware of as well, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
And China uses sort of like financial investments throughout the
world to make inroads and you know, to a sort
of establish dominance. We're sort of seeing President Trump, you know,
do a lot of that, particularly in the Middle East,
with a lot of these financial deals that he announced
upon leaving, particularly with Saudi Arabia and Gatar as well.
You know, as he said that the paths in the
Middle East this through commerce, not chaos.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
You know, I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Under the biod administration, we saw a lot of Chinese
nationals try to cross the southern border and also enter
into the country as well.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Why are they doing that?
Speaker 1 (07:56):
What's what is the purpose, what's the what's the intention
behind that.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
During the Biden years, we saw this almost unprecedented, actually
unprecedented surge of Chinese migrants into the US, primarily through
the southern border. And in the beginning of this surge,
it really looked like these were desperate Chinese who wanted
to live in our country. But towards the middle and
end of this the composition of the Chinese migrants changed
(08:24):
and it became I think ominous. What we were seeing
were towards the middle and end of the Biden years,
packs of Chinese males of four to fifteen military age,
traveling without family members, some of them pretending not to
speak English. Border Patrol knows that some of them had
(08:45):
links to the Chinese military, And in the very last
months of the Biden administration, some of these packs were
coming across Lisa with identical kit so that gives us
a hint of what's going on. Also, we have a
problem in our northern border. So in February of last year,
(09:06):
border patrol and apprehended three Chinese migrants trying to sneak
in under the cover of darkness into Maine. What made
this particularly disturbing was that there was a fourth Chinese
national on our side, again, a migrant who was obviously
thereby pre arrangement to help them get in. Now, if
(09:26):
you're desperate Chinese who wants to live in a free society,
the first thing you do is you surrendered a border patrol,
try to get yourself into the asylum queue. Also get
benefits from New York City and other places. So if
you're coming in and you're trying to avoid detection, which
is what these three were trying to do, then you're
(09:47):
coming here for some nefarious purpose. We know that there
has been as this migrant surge has occurred, there's also
been a big uptick in Chinese nationals trying sneak into
our military bases, some of them successfully. We have also
seen illicit Chinese surveillance of our military facilities and Chinese
(10:09):
surveillance of our infrastructure. So clearly what's occurring is that
these elements Chinese military, maybe Ministry of State Security, they
are studying our patterns. They're looking for our vulnerabilities. In
other words, they're planning to strike. So we should assume
that one of the first signs that there will be
(10:32):
war in East Asia will be actually an attack on
the United States from our own soil. And by the way, Lisa,
this will be the first time since the War of
eighteen twelve that Americans will have had to fight a
foreign enemy on their own soil in a sustained battle.
So let's be sure that we understand what's coming, because
(10:54):
all the elements for the attack are already in place.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Got to take a quick commercial break worth Gordon Chang.
On the other side, how does President Trump's response to
Iran and dropping those bombs in Iran and sort of
like the show of force and the fact that we
now have leadership in the United States again and that
he means red lines and when he says sixty days,
(11:20):
sixty days is meaningful. You know what message does that
send China? Like does that make them less hesitant to
try to do anything under President Trump's tenure? You know,
would it be are they more wait and see to
you know, kind of see what happens with the next election,
or you know from what you laid out about this
attack from China. How does President Trump's you know, peace
(11:43):
through Strength and this response impact China's decision making.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
That's the most important question that anyone is asking, and unfortunately,
of course, we don't know the answer. I think that
in the Middle East, China doesn't have the firepower, either
literally or figuratively, to challenge the United States, but it
does have the ability to help Iran by disrupting East Asia.
(12:12):
On the nineteenth of this month, China began air incursions
against Taiwan, which had been quiet up to then. We
saw starting on the nineteenth, seventy four Chinese planes get
near Taiwan's airspace. Sixty one of them crossed the Median Line.
That's the line down the middle of the Taiwan Strait,
(12:36):
which has generally been considered the unofficial border between China
and Taiwan. So China's sending planes east of the Median
line is considered to be a provocative act, and since
that time, China's continued the air incursions. The number of
planes that have gotten near Taiwan is now up to
about ninety or so, and at the same time on
(12:57):
the nineteenth, that same day that the air Camp Pain started,
the Philippine Coast Guard announced that there were more than
fifty of China's maritime militia boats flooding into Philippine waters
at Iroquois Reef in the South China Sea. So this
is China. I'm maybe trying to take advantage of what's
(13:18):
going on in the rest of the world, or trying
to back off the Trump administration. But there's one other thing, though,
and this is showing what you were talking about before
about the effectiveness of Trump policy, and that is on
the twenty first, the day that Israel started, that we
(13:38):
bombed those three nuclear sites in Iran, Reuters reported that
the Pentagon told the news service that the United States
was sending B twos to Guam, and at the time, everybody,
including me, thought that this was the final warning to Iran.
But as we look back at this sequence of events,
(14:01):
we can understand that B two's in Guam would not
be of military relevance for an attack on Iran for
a lot of reasons, but they would be of relevance
for backing off China. So I think that that the
Pentagon leaking this to Reuter's was essentially Trump's way of
(14:22):
telling the Chinese don't even think about it. I don't
know that, but when we look at what's occurred, it's
appeared that that was President Trump's message to the Chinese leadership.
Is China?
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Is it fair to say that China is somewhat cautious,
like you know, they're not as a little bit more
cautious than you know ran which you know, they're kind
of like crazy, and you know what I mean? Is
that fair to say that they're a little bit more
thoughtful about things, a little more cautious.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
They are thoughtful, but sometimes their thinking leads them to
do things which are really dangerous. And we have seen
this with Chinese provocations against South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Philippines,
and even far away Australia. And what I worry about
is that one of those low level provocations spirals out
(15:18):
of control, and if it does, then we probably are
headed for war in East Asia because the Chinese political
system is now configured so that only the most hostile
answers are considered acceptable, which means that China can't deal
with the rest of the world in a responsible way.
If there is a crisis and China is provoking these
(15:39):
crises just basically hoping that everybody backs off, but there
could be clearly miscalculation. And we have seen very belligerent
Chinese activity in the skies over East Asia, challenging Australians
and US are planes, and one of those could one
(16:00):
of those incidents could go wrong, just as it went
wrong on April first, two thousand and one, the EP
three plane incident. And that incident was solved only because
the Bush administration made unacceptable concessions to China, and so
we disused it by basically surrendering. I don't think that
(16:23):
we're going to do that again. We shouldn't have done it.
Then that opened the way I think to showing China
that belligerence works. We can't afford to do that again.
And I hope President Trump would not adopt such a
submissive position as George W. Bush did in two thousand
and one. But if we don't, it means there will
(16:44):
be a crisis. The crisis will heat up, and this
will be one of those consequential moments in history.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Well, you know, we've got the right man in charge
for these moments, in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
FBI Director Cash Ptel sort of dropped an interesting bomb
earlier this month, declassifying a twenty twenty internal FBI intelligence
document and sharing it with the Senate Judiciary Committee, and
it claims that the Chinese Communist Party produced counterfeit US
driver's licenses and shipped them to the United States during
(17:23):
the twenty twenty election with the intent to try to
help Joe Biden allegedly.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
What do you know about that? Does that add up?
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And to what extent? To what extent did China try
to influence the outcome of the twenty twenty election.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We know, in general China was very involved in the
presidential election in twenty twenty. It supported Joe Biden over
Bernie Sanders and the Democratic primaries, and it supported Biden
over Trump in the general election. And China went all
in on social media, both that we could see in
(18:01):
that which was meant not to be seen. We know
from New York Times reporting that China was using text
messages spreading false and very damaging rumors about President Trump,
especially in connection with the Stafford Act. But China used Twitter,
Facebook and it's other social media instruments, and they really
(18:25):
went after Trump. We saw some really dangerous, very provocative
acts on the part of China in twenty twenty. They
were counterfeiting US currency and trying to smuggle it into
the US. They were smuggling in automatic weapons parts, which
takes basically permits someone to convert a gun into an
(18:50):
automatic weapon. We also saw something even worse, and that
was Radio Free Asia reported in August twenty twenty. Eligence
Unit of the People's Liberation Army actually based themselves in
the now closed Houston consulate and from there they used
big data to identify Americans likely to participate in violent protests,
(19:11):
and then they sent those Americans' videos on how to riot.
And we've learned from related reporting that those tailor made
videos were tiktoks. Also, there was a Chinese official who
openly on Twitter in October of twenty twenty advocated Americans
(19:32):
to commit acts of violence and specifically to throw petrol
bombs on American streets. These are acts of war. And
so you put that cash Betel's revelation of the fake
driver's licenses, it fits within a pattern, and that pattern
was very effective. One can argue that China elected Joe
(19:54):
Biden in twenty twenty, So we've got to understand the
significance of this.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Does China own the Biden family considering the financial entanglements, it.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Certainly influences the Biden family. What we know. You know,
I can't get into the minds of Joe Biden, but
you can see what happened. The Chinese regime poured something
like two point three or so million dollars into the
hands of Hunter Biden, and he did so under circumstances
(20:29):
that scream corruption. So for instance, and this is admitted
by Hunter Biden's legal team, that they received money as
good faith seed funds. Now, in commercial context, nobody would
pay money as a good faith seed fund less of
all the Chinese unless they were trying to bribe the
(20:50):
Biden family. So yes, I think that they certainly influenced
the Biden family and influenced Joe Biden's decision. And you know,
of course there was the money through the Penn Center
at the University of Pennsylvania. I'm sure that there was
money that leaked in through other ways. We know the
(21:12):
Chinese themselves believe that they bought the Biden family. Chinese
professor d Dung Chong in November of twenty twenty gave
a livestream lecture throughout China that talked about China's attempts
to influence the Biden family. Just to give you a
sense of what he said, he said, basically, no American
(21:32):
could stand up to the Chinese because they could buy
every American. And he said d Dung Chung said that
China's traditional means of exerting influence at the highest levels
of the American political system had been broken because Trump
during his time in the first term in office wasn't
(21:52):
listening to Wall Street or Henry Kissinger, but that the
Chinese then, remember this is after the twenty twenty election,
the Chinese then looking again to re establish those links.
And d Dongsheng got his biggest laugh of his lecture
when he mentioned the Chinese characters for Hunter Biden. So
(22:13):
we know what the Chinese felt about this and how
they looked at it.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
And we also all know about Representative Swalwell and his relationship,
and then also about Dianne Feinstein employing a Chinese spy
as a driver for I think it was like twenty
years or something. So if that's just what we know about,
then you know what else has happened that we don't
know about, right so.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Absolutely, and Swalwell is a really instructive case. I mean,
I don't know it was in Swalwell's mind, so I
don't assume that he's well.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
He's a man, So I think I have an idea.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, Well, let me say this. China's Ministry of State Security,
in the form of the very should I say, good
looking attractive agent Christine Wong, first contacted Swalwell, not when
he was on the House Intelligence Committee, where he would
(23:11):
have been of great benefit for China. The Administry of
State Security first contacted Swalwell when he was sitting on
the City Council of Dublin City, California. And that means
I can't believe that Swalwell was the only person being groomed,
because clearly he was being groomed. I'm not saying he
(23:32):
gave into and gave valuable information to China, but I
am saying this is not about Swalwell in this sense
so much. This is about the China's pervasive efforts because
there must be dozens, maybe hundreds of Swalwell's in our
country where China has contacted them at a very early
stage in their careers. And we know that Christine Fong.
(23:54):
She was not partisan. She was up to corrupting Republicans
as well as she in fact did it. So this
is this is a bipartisan problem. And of course we
have had some of former Republican officials lobby directly for China,
which is disgraceful. So this is a bipartisan problem. We've
(24:17):
got a problem on both sides of the political divide.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
We've also seen another, you know, some really troubling incidents
with agroterrorism concerns and and bioweapons. I know you've written
about it and you've raised the alarm about it with
some Chinese nationals being caught trying to smuggle in some
toxic fungus into the United States.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Walk us through that.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Uh, you know, what do you think the broader strategy
is for China here? How much of a threat are
we already facing with us? And kind of what does
it all mean?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
China means to destroy American agriculture and American ranching, and
this is part of their just unrestricted warfare campaign, their
total war against the United States. I mean, this month,
three Chinese researchers risk their careers by trying to smuggle
in biological agents into the United States. The first two
(25:17):
who were charged were trying to We're working with a fungus,
and you know, people can say, well, this fungus is
common throughout the world, so this can't be a big deal. Well, yes,
it can be a big deal if this fungus was
genetically modified, which I believe it must have been, because
(25:39):
why would they risk their careers to do this. So
if China is able to own farmland, which it does,
it would be able to take a genetically modified agent,
which is probably more resistant to pesticides, was probably easier
spread and decimate American agriculture. This headblight that this fungus
(26:04):
goes after wheat barley. I think it's rice maze, and
it causes reproductive problems and vomiting in animals and humans.
This has got to be seen in the context that
for at least a half decade, China has been trying
to plant invasive species in our countries. So in twenty twenty,
(26:28):
Americans in all fifty states receive seeds from Chinese parties unsolicited,
and so that is a real warning sign and that
efforts continued because this year Team mod, the online Chinese retailer,
was caught sending seeds unsolicited into the US, and in
one case, a Chinese party sent in a container of
(26:52):
unknown liquid to an American unsolicited. So yeah, they're trying
to take down our agriculture and our ranching.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Is that terrorism, Well, the FBI the Eastern District of
Michigan called the fungus that was brought in an agro
terrorist agent.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm not so sure that terror. You know, terror. When
I think of terror, I think of physical violence. But
this was this was worse in a sense, more dangerous
to the United States than an active terrorism or most
acts of terrorism. So this was this was an attack
(27:37):
on the United States. This was an act of war,
and that's I think that's the best way to characterize it,
you know, to put this into context. I'm sorry for
going on here, but I want to know it's please.
In May twenty nineteen, People's Daily, which is the most
authoritative publication in China, carried a landmark editorial that declared
(27:59):
a quotquote people's war on us. We Americans didn't notice
because we don't think very much a propaganda, but this
phrase people's war has great importance in Communist Party thought,
and in twenty twenty three, PLA Daily, which is the
main propaganda organ of the Chinese military, helpfully defined People's
(28:20):
war as quote unquote total war. We know that China,
although it denies it, China has a doctrine of unrestricted warfare,
which comes from the title of that nineteen ninety nine
book by then two Chinese Air Force colonels, which argued
that China could do anything to take down the US.
And you mentioned terrorism. That book talks about Bin Laden
(28:42):
hitting the US. Remember this is two years before nine
to eleven. China publicly talks about getting Bin Laden to
attack US. And by the way, China's had at that
time had very strong relations with the Taliban in Afghanistan.
So yeah, we have to understand that we're under attack
(29:05):
and these are acts of war, and so far no
president has taken the necessary steps to protect us from
this with the vigor and determination that's necessary. And I
hope President Trump starts to take more determined steps against
China because we are on the edge of pretty catastrophic
(29:25):
events and President Trump can stop it, but we need
to have the American public behind him. So this should
be an all of society effort.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Quick break, stay with us, and then before we go
I've got to get your take on the tariffs back
and forth between President Trump and China, sort of what's
your broader perspective on what has taken place so far?
And also where is that heading? How much can we
(29:57):
extract from China? Sort of how do you see this
playing out?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, I believe that we need to have high tariffs
on China as to impose costs for the theft of
US intellectual property and for increasingly predatory trade practices. So
I was very happy to see President Trump put tariffs
on China, the general one hundred and forty five percent rate,
in some cases two hundred and forty five percent when
(30:24):
you added the other tariffs on. I didn't like the
May twelfth agreement that was announced. The Chinese have violated
that agreement with continuing its ban on exports of rare
earths to American companies. President Trump needs to actually impose
(30:45):
some severe costs on China for violating that agreement. So far,
he hasn't, and I'm looking forward to him pivoting because
the Chinese have taken their measure of him. And I'm
not saying this is right, because I don't believe it's right.
But the Chinese believe that they can force Trump to
back down on things like TikTok and tariffs, and so
(31:10):
Trump needs to disabuse them of that notion because if
he doesn't, this is going to work out very badly
for US. I believe President Trump actually believes in tariffs.
We know that during the campaign he was talking about
McKinley and the history of tariffs, which means he really
believes it. So I hope that he guts back to
(31:32):
his instincts and hits the Chinese hard for continuing for
their continuing to hit us.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah, I mean he's been talking about them since like
the seventies or the eighties.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I think.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Then the last question before we go, what is possible
in trying to untangle ourselves from China's economy? You know,
what is doable? What is possible? And does President Trump
of interest in doing that?
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Do you mean supply chains? Pardon sir?
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah, just try just trying to untangle. Obviously, we're so
reliant on China from an economic standpoint. Obviously we just
talked about tariffs as well, but like, how do we
decouple from China?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Is it even possible?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
And what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's certainly as possible. I mean, we had a really
we had no trade relationship with China, and we built one.
So if it can be built, it can be taken apart.
Treasury Secretary Bessant has actually said that we need strategic decoupling,
in other words, things like rare earths and other things
that we absolutely depend upon. I think President Trump really
(32:38):
believes that there should be a bigger decoupling, though he
has not in fact said that, but clearly his actions
have started the decoupling process. And he did that in
his first term with the tariffs that he imposed in
twenty eighteen. So clearly this is something. This is long
held views, and so I do believe that we will
(33:00):
see further decoupling. And part of it, you know, Lisa,
is not just US. It's the Chinese pushing American companies
out of China. So it's both push and pull, and
I believe it will happen, especially because as China threatens
to go to war, even C suites are going to
understand that they've got to get their companies out of China.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Really interesting stuff, scary, but very interesting. We appreciate your
sharing your expertise with us. Gordon Chang really really interesting.
Really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Well, I really appreciate it, Lisa, and thanks so much.
And stay safe.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
That was Gordon Chang. Appreciate him for making the time
to come on the show. Appreciate you guys at home
for listening every Tuesday and Thursday, but you can listen
throughout the week until next time.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.