September 8, 2025 • 19 mins
In this episode, Tudor sits down with Kayla Toney, attorney at First Liberty Institute, to uncover a shocking case of student faith discrimination. They discuss the story of high school student Sabrina Stephens, who was denied the right to display her religious beliefs through her parking space artwork. Together, Tudor and Kayla break down what this means for First Amendment protections, how parents can advocate for their children’s rights, and why misinformation about the separation of church and state continues to spread. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. So many times we
have a situation in our lives where we say this
is not fair and we don't know how to fight it.
And oftentimes we have people come on the podcast and
they're like, you need to get a legal organization involved,
or get an attorney and go fight, and that seems
sometimes daunting and overwhelming and expensive. And I wanted to
(00:22):
bring a story to you today about why it's important
to make sure you do fight, because right now, I
think in this country we are really fighting for our
religious liberties. Oftentimes, especially as Christians, I think we are
pushed to the side, and our faith is pushed to
the side, or our faith is demonized. And I heard
the story the other day and I was like, this
(00:43):
is a really great story. So I wanted to bring
an attorney on here. Her name is Kayla Toni. She
is counsel with First Liberty Institute, a nonprofit legal organization
where she focuses on religious liberty and the First Amendment
rights for clients of all faiths, but also in the
education context. So Kayla, thank you so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I saw so I saw on the news this case
of a young woman in she had explained it a
little bit. She had a parking space at school and
the kids were allowed to decorate the parking space, and
her designs were rejected by the school.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, actually twice, and this was simply because she included
a Bible versus reference. So we represent Sabrina Stephens. She's
a arriving senior at Grand Island High School in upstate
New York, and she's very active at her school. She
runs the Bible Club, and all she wanted to do
(01:43):
was put a simple Bible verse on her parking space.
The way the program worked is you pay fifty dollars
and you can decorate it with any kind of artwork
you want, as long as it's not religious. And so
her first design had John fourteen six on it and
that was rejected. Her second design had Jeremiah twenty nine
to eleven on it, and that wasn't good enough either,
(02:04):
even though that's everyone's favorite graduation verse. And the only
design they would approve was one that didn't have any
religious imagery. So that's when she reached out to us
for celebrity.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
What was what was the real this is a public school,
I'm assuming yes. And what was their reason that, I mean,
you could have anything but religion?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Why they were worried that someone might be offended. That
was really the only rationale we could get from them.
It didn't make a lot of sense, and it certainly
was not in line with the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's interesting to me that you can decorate it with
anything you want, but they're afraid that it might be
offensive if you decorate it with something of faith based,
because you would think there could be a lot of
offensive decorations. So why would the school not just say
you can't decorate parking spaces at all if they were
afraid that someone might be offended. It seems like it
was pretty targeted to Christianity.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
That's right, And certainly, as you said, with high school students,
they might come up with something inappropriate or vulgar, and
the school could absolutely police that already. But the fact
that they would turn away and otherwise, you know, beautiful,
upbeat artwork design just because it referenced God or because
it included a religious reference. No.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We talk about this a lot about what's happening in
the country when it comes to people, especially with education.
It seems like parents are under attack. Students are under attack.
If you wear a T shirt, if you have a
political reference or religious reference that the school doesn't like,
it's very easy for them to come after you. There's
also been cases where the school has done something that
(03:43):
parents haven't liked and they don't seem to have a recourse.
What when you went to the school and you, first
of all, how did you get connected with the student?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Rina's mom reached out to us through our website. So
at first Liberty dot org there's a page where you
can request legal help, and we received thousands of these
every year, and we're obviously not able to help everyone.
Not everyone has a clear religious freedom issue who reaches
out to us? But Sabrina's mom really did, and so
we got in touch with her right away. We did
a call with Sabrina and her mom, and we were
(04:15):
just very impressed by how committed she was, that she
really wanted her parking space to express her faith because
that's the most important thing in her life. That was
inspiring to us, and that really made us want to
step up and fight. And we also knew that her
story could impact a lot of other schools, and it
already has since her win, we've seen impact in other
places as well.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's actually, that's what I wanted to get to is
the importance of fighting back when you see something that
is wrong like this. And like I said, I think
a lot of people are afraid because it's going to
be expensive and what if they don't win? But you
said you saw a clear case here. What were the
next steps when you talked to the school? Did you
have to go into court? Did you have to or
did they just say you know what, you're right? How
(04:58):
did it work?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
We sent a demand letter to the school explaining why
their actions violated the First Amendment. We talked about how
Sabrina's speech had double protection. She's got the free speech clause,
which protects her ability to say a message in her artwork,
and the Supreme Court is held that artwork counts as
speech certainly when it's coming from a student. And then
(05:22):
also her free exercise. It's an important part of her
faith to be able to share her faith with others.
She does that through her Bible club, and she wants
to do that through her parking space. And so those
double protections are really the legal hook that Sabrina has
and so after we explain that to the school in
our letter, and we also sent a press release, and
obviously Sabrina told her story on the local news, which
(05:44):
I think made a significant impact as well. The school
quickly changed course and they agreed that not only could
she come and paint her parking space after the official
deadline had passed, but she could use her original design,
which said God is Love and wrote out Jesus is
the Way, the Truth and the Life and John fourteen six.
(06:04):
And so she was able to do that last weekend.
She sent us the pictures and it just came out beautifully.
She added across. She just was really able to express
her faith fully, and that's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
That is very neat. I think it's interesting that the
school was essentially it sounded like there was some discussion
of well, you can't have anything religious on school property,
and there was a confusion with the school teaching the
kids like this is a this is a public school,
so you can't have religion. Is that true? Was there
some push back on it?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Oh? Yes, Initially what they told Sabrina before we got
involved was that it was a school sponsored activity. So
basically the First Amendment didn't apply, and that's just not correct.
This seems like the clearest instance of student speech that
I could think of, because she paid for at the space,
and she's physically painting it herself, and she drew the design.
(06:58):
So it's not like you have a teacher or up
there preaching or forcing conversions or something like that. This
is very much in the student speech world. But that
is something we've seen. School districts just seem to want
to remove religion, remove all references to religion, and then
if that doesn't work, they sort of recast everything as
school speech instead of student speech, and that's just not right,
(07:20):
and we were happy to explain that to them.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I think there is some confusion across the board, and
I'm not saying just schools, but I think a lot
of Americans believe that the phrase separation of Church and
State means that you cannot have any public institution reference
any religion whatsoever. And that seems to be something that
they're kind of pushing down through the next generation and
(07:44):
saying there is actually in the Constitution a phrase it
says separation of church and State. There's not, and that
misinformation is going to our kids. It's funny to me
because the people who are constantly fighting to protect the
misofmain and not having any misinformation really seemed to not
be educated on this one critical piece, this critical item
(08:07):
that your religious liberty is there for you and it's
meant to be protected.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yes, absolutely, I'm so glad you brought that up, because,
like you said, separation of church and state is not
in the constitution. What is in the Constitution right there
in our first Amendment, is that free exercise of religion
is protected, and so is free speech. And the phrase
separation of church and state actually comes from a letter
that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists who
(08:32):
were afraid that they were going to lose their heads
because of their faith, because that was something that had
happened in the Old World where they had emigrated from.
And he assured them that there would be a separation,
but the purpose of it was to protect the church
and to protect especially religious minorities who were afraid of
government persecution. And he said that won't happen because the
government is not allowed to encroach on your freedom. So
(08:56):
that's the backstory to that phrase. But I think you're
absolutely right that there is a lot of information going on,
and so a lot of what we try to do
at First Librity is we try to educate on these issues,
and if we need to educate the educators, you know,
we're happy to do that to explain to school districts
that actually, the law protects religious speech and religious diversity
is a strength of our country and that's something that
(09:18):
the next generation needs to know. Think.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think also so proud of the mom in this
situation because so often as parents were going through something,
we have something like this come and we take our
kid aside and we say, okay, well what are we
learning from this? And we don't fight back because it
can be really hard to fight back, especially going on
the local news, and especially with all the turmoil we've
(09:43):
seen with these situations of parents going to school board meetings.
I like this story because it doesn't seem like there's
a lot of anger involved, and there isn't. Because Sabrina
is a religious person and she's she seems to be
very filled with joy. It was this isn't right, Let's
have a discussion. That's not what we hear every day.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's right. I'm so glad Sabrina was brave enough to
stand up, and it's very intimidating, especially as a high
school student. You know, peer pressure is a real influence.
But she was not concerned about that. She just wanted
to do what was right. And I think the ripple
effect of her courage is that other students now are
braver and they're more willing to paint their own parking spaces.
(10:27):
And we actually heard from some students in Georgia just
last week. They had reached out to us about a
similar issue when they heard about Sabrina's story, and their
school changed their policies. So now they're allowed to go
back to their parking spaces and add the religious imagery
that they wanted to add, which their school had initially
told them they couldn't have. So I thought that was
a really special yeah, just a really special impact of
(10:49):
you know, Sabrina's courage up in New York is benefiting
some students down in Georgia who now they're able to
express their faith.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
To Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. When I heard this, I
was like, I have to talk about this because I
think we have so many parents and grandparents that listen
to this podcast, and it's one thing to educate the kids,
but I think even our generation needs to be hearing
(11:15):
you shouldn't just accept that you're being pushed to the side.
These are your rights. Your rights are very serious, and
it gives parents and grandparents the chance to say, when
we have this happen to us, we shouldn't We don't
have to get angry. We don't have to go to
jump on social media and immediately yell and scream about
what's happening. Go have that conversation because oftentimes you can
(11:36):
change something. And that's something that we've had, even when
we've had kids that have been hurt or emotionally hurt
by a school, the importance of knowing that there are
tools to fight back. And that's so I want you
to talk a little bit about your organizations and maybe
a few of the other cases that you've been successful
and so parents know there is another opportunity to have
(11:58):
another path.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yes, absolutely so. I work at First Liberty Institute. We
are a nonprofit nationwide law firm and we represent clients
of all faiths, which we love to do, but we
are a Christian ministry, so our team has that shared understanding,
which is also really helpful. And we represent our clients
for free, and the only way we're able to do
that is that we are supported by really generous donors
(12:23):
from all across the US, and so there's more information
on our website at first Liberty dot org. There's a
place where folks can give and there's also a place where,
as I mentioned, you can request legal help. And that's
how Sabrina's family got in touch with us. So certainly,
if listeners have a family member who's maybe going through
a religious freedom issue, please do feel free to reach
(12:44):
out to us, because that's how we meet a lot
of our clients. And one other thing I'll mention, we
just recently put together a very up to date toolkit
that's designed for students to know their rights in public schools.
So I'm happy to share a link with you if
that would be helpful to send out to listeners. It's
(13:05):
a lot of legal precedents that are sort of explained,
and we tried to do it in you know, understandable terms,
so you don't have to wait through a lot of legalies.
But there's a lot of good information in there and
we hope that that really equips students and parents to
know their rights and to know you are free to
speak about your faith. You're free to have a Christian
club at school. Your club has to be treated just
(13:27):
the same as every other club. That parents are able
to view the curriculum that their children are learning. They're
able to opt out if that curriculum interferes with their faith.
There's really a lot more rights that people have that again,
they don't always know, and a lot of times the
school district will tell you an incorrect version of your
(13:47):
rights based on this outdated idea that you know, church
and state have to be completely separate, when actually there's
a lot of space for religious expression as long as
it's voluntary and as long as it's coming from students.
You know, there's so much freedom that we have in
our public schools today.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I know, we had a story a while back of
a school that allowed social clubs, and they had multiple
social clubs, and they even had a Church of Satan club,
but they said that there couldn't be a Christian club
because that was religious, and the parents fought back on that,
and the school ultimately had to give in and say, Okay, actually,
I guess that that is the correct answer you can
(14:28):
have one of these. Is that the type of case
you generally see, or what are some of the other
issues that you've experienced.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, we've definitely had some student club cases. Just last year,
we represented a fifth grader in Seattle who wanted to
start an interfaith prayer club. It wasn't even focused on
one faith, it was inter faith, and the school said, no,
absolutely not. But of course they had approved a pride
club just a few weeks earlier, and so there again
we threatened to sue. We ended up not having to
(14:56):
litigate because the school did agree to allow the prayer clubs,
so that was a great win for that student. And
we also work on parental rights. So right now we
have a case in California where some fifth graders were
forced to teach kindergarteners about changing genders. And the fifth
graders were not comfortable with this because they were Christians.
(15:17):
And so when the parents reached out and asked, you know,
to be notified in the future and maybe opt out
if their child was going to be exposed to this,
the school said absolutely not. And so we are still
finding that case in California. The good news is that
the Supreme Court this summer, which loves in a similar
case that parents do have their rights their children of
(15:37):
any teaching that interferes with their faith. So that's another
thing parents should know, especially going into the school year.
You should ask to review the curriculum that your kid
will be exposed to, and then you should be able
to talk to and if there's any pushback of this,
please do reach out to us for celebrity, because we
very much to know their rights and to be able
to just talk if the materials in us in that
(16:00):
it aligns with their faith.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Did you just say that older kids were being told
they had to go talk to younger kids about the
fact that they could change their gender.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yes. It was a buddy mentoring program between fifth graders
and kindergarteners and they met every single week and they
would do activities together and it was just a great
sort of mentoring relationship. But then the last month of school,
the teachers introduced this book called My Shadow Is Pink,
which is essentially a little boy deciding he wants to
(16:30):
become a little girl, and that's what the fifth graders
had to teach to the kindergarten. So it was very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
There's so much that actually happens in school. I had
completely forgotten this until the other day. There's so much
that happens in your school that you really have to
be on top of what's going on and go to
every parent teacher conference and know what's happening, because I
think that there's a lot of stuff that naturally happens
in the school that they don't necessarily reach out and
tell parents about, and maybe because they're not thinking about it.
(16:59):
Like my daughter this was It's so funny because I
had no idea this was happening, and it's not like
something that I'm angry about. But this is just an
example of when you don't know what's happening at your school.
So there was a little boy in her class who
was struggling with reading. She was not struggling with reading,
but he had to leave class every day and they
(17:20):
would have him and like five other kids meet and
they would play games instead of reading. They didn't have
a I don't know if there was a reading specialist there,
but they would play board games during this time. I
don't really understand exactly what was happening, but at the
last parent teacher conference, they were like, Oh, your daughter
is so sweet. You know, she's the friend that so
(17:42):
and so picks every day to go to this special
classroom with him and they play these board games and
she's so sweet with him. And I was like, what
are you talking about? Then I come home and I'm like,
are you missing reading time at school? And she was like, oh, well,
I'm the choice because you know, so and so gets
to choose somebody every day to go with him and
he always wants me to go. And it's like, that's
(18:05):
very sweet, but you are missing critical time in class.
And I think that's something we don't think about. We
as parents have historically trusted the schools and you put
your kids in there, and it's something you really have
to talk to your kids about every day. What's happening
how a school? Are you being pulled out of classes?
You don't think about it, but it is very critical
(18:25):
that you know, and then you have an opportunity to
either go to the school or if it gets to
the point where they need to, they can come to you.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's right. Absolutely, I think that's such great advice for parents.
I would say, yeah, never assume that everything going on
is in your kids messengers or aligning with your faith,
and I think taking the time to go to the
meetings and meet the teachers and get to know and
build those relationships and to really be involved is really awesome.
And that's where you know, I love working with parents
(18:53):
and students. I think there's so much space for Christians
and for people of all faiths in our public schools.
But we have to speak up about our rights. We
have to know our rights and we have to advocate
for them, and at First Liberty we're very happy to
help folks do that. Well.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I appreciate what you did here. I'm so glad that
we got to talk about it because I think it's
an important subject for people to know. So give us
the website one more time at First Liberty so in
case people need to go check it out and get
some help for themselves.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yes, absolutely, it's just first Liberty dot org.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Thank you so much, Kayla Tony. I appreciate you coming
on the podcast today. Thank you for having me absolutely,
and thank you all for joining us on the Tutor
Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordisonpodcast
dot com, or you can head over to the iHeartRadio
app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and
you can watch the full video on Rumble or YouTube
(19:46):
at tutor Dixon and join us next time on the
Tutor Dixon podcast. Have a blessed day.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. So many times we
have a situation in our lives where we say this
is not fair and we don't know how to fight it.
And oftentimes we have people come on the podcast and
they're like, you need to get a legal organization involved,
or get an attorney and go fight, and that seems
sometimes daunting and overwhelming and expensive. And I wanted to
(00:22):
bring a story to you today about why it's important
to make sure you do fight, because right now, I
think in this country we are really fighting for our
religious liberties. Oftentimes, especially as Christians, I think we are
pushed to the side, and our faith is pushed to
the side, or our faith is demonized. And I heard
the story the other day and I was like, this
(00:43):
is a really great story. So I wanted to bring
an attorney on here. Her name is Kayla Toni. She
is counsel with First Liberty Institute, a nonprofit legal organization
where she focuses on religious liberty and the First Amendment
rights for clients of all faiths, but also in the
education context. So Kayla, thank you so much for joining
me today.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I saw so I saw on the news this case
of a young woman in she had explained it a
little bit. She had a parking space at school and
the kids were allowed to decorate the parking space, and
her designs were rejected by the school.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yes, actually twice, and this was simply because she included
a Bible versus reference. So we represent Sabrina Stephens. She's
a arriving senior at Grand Island High School in upstate
New York, and she's very active at her school. She
runs the Bible Club, and all she wanted to do
(01:43):
was put a simple Bible verse on her parking space.
The way the program worked is you pay fifty dollars
and you can decorate it with any kind of artwork
you want, as long as it's not religious. And so
her first design had John fourteen six on it and
that was rejected. Her second design had Jeremiah twenty nine
to eleven on it, and that wasn't good enough either,
(02:04):
even though that's everyone's favorite graduation verse. And the only
design they would approve was one that didn't have any
religious imagery. So that's when she reached out to us
for celebrity.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
What was what was the real this is a public school,
I'm assuming yes. And what was their reason that, I mean,
you could have anything but religion?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Why they were worried that someone might be offended. That
was really the only rationale we could get from them.
It didn't make a lot of sense, and it certainly
was not in line with the First Amendment.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's interesting to me that you can decorate it with
anything you want, but they're afraid that it might be
offensive if you decorate it with something of faith based,
because you would think there could be a lot of
offensive decorations. So why would the school not just say
you can't decorate parking spaces at all if they were
afraid that someone might be offended. It seems like it
was pretty targeted to Christianity.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
That's right, And certainly, as you said, with high school students,
they might come up with something inappropriate or vulgar, and
the school could absolutely police that already. But the fact
that they would turn away and otherwise, you know, beautiful,
upbeat artwork design just because it referenced God or because
it included a religious reference. No.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
We talk about this a lot about what's happening in
the country when it comes to people, especially with education.
It seems like parents are under attack. Students are under attack.
If you wear a T shirt, if you have a
political reference or religious reference that the school doesn't like,
it's very easy for them to come after you. There's
also been cases where the school has done something that
(03:43):
parents haven't liked and they don't seem to have a recourse.
What when you went to the school and you, first
of all, how did you get connected with the student?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Rina's mom reached out to us through our website. So
at first Liberty dot org there's a page where you
can request legal help, and we received thousands of these
every year, and we're obviously not able to help everyone.
Not everyone has a clear religious freedom issue who reaches
out to us? But Sabrina's mom really did, and so
we got in touch with her right away. We did
a call with Sabrina and her mom, and we were
(04:15):
just very impressed by how committed she was, that she
really wanted her parking space to express her faith because
that's the most important thing in her life. That was
inspiring to us, and that really made us want to
step up and fight. And we also knew that her
story could impact a lot of other schools, and it
already has since her win, we've seen impact in other
places as well.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That's actually, that's what I wanted to get to is
the importance of fighting back when you see something that
is wrong like this. And like I said, I think
a lot of people are afraid because it's going to
be expensive and what if they don't win? But you
said you saw a clear case here. What were the
next steps when you talked to the school? Did you
have to go into court? Did you have to or
did they just say you know what, you're right? How
(04:58):
did it work?
Speaker 2 (05:00):
We sent a demand letter to the school explaining why
their actions violated the First Amendment. We talked about how
Sabrina's speech had double protection. She's got the free speech clause,
which protects her ability to say a message in her artwork,
and the Supreme Court is held that artwork counts as
speech certainly when it's coming from a student. And then
(05:22):
also her free exercise. It's an important part of her
faith to be able to share her faith with others.
She does that through her Bible club, and she wants
to do that through her parking space. And so those
double protections are really the legal hook that Sabrina has
and so after we explain that to the school in
our letter, and we also sent a press release, and
obviously Sabrina told her story on the local news, which
(05:44):
I think made a significant impact as well. The school
quickly changed course and they agreed that not only could
she come and paint her parking space after the official
deadline had passed, but she could use her original design,
which said God is Love and wrote out Jesus is
the Way, the Truth and the Life and John fourteen six.
(06:04):
And so she was able to do that last weekend.
She sent us the pictures and it just came out beautifully.
She added across. She just was really able to express
her faith fully, and that's so exciting.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
That is very neat. I think it's interesting that the
school was essentially it sounded like there was some discussion
of well, you can't have anything religious on school property,
and there was a confusion with the school teaching the
kids like this is a this is a public school,
so you can't have religion. Is that true? Was there
some push back on it?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Oh? Yes, Initially what they told Sabrina before we got
involved was that it was a school sponsored activity. So
basically the First Amendment didn't apply, and that's just not correct.
This seems like the clearest instance of student speech that
I could think of, because she paid for at the space,
and she's physically painting it herself, and she drew the design.
(06:58):
So it's not like you have a teacher or up
there preaching or forcing conversions or something like that. This
is very much in the student speech world. But that
is something we've seen. School districts just seem to want
to remove religion, remove all references to religion, and then
if that doesn't work, they sort of recast everything as
school speech instead of student speech, and that's just not right,
(07:20):
and we were happy to explain that to them.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I think there is some confusion across the board, and
I'm not saying just schools, but I think a lot
of Americans believe that the phrase separation of Church and
State means that you cannot have any public institution reference
any religion whatsoever. And that seems to be something that
they're kind of pushing down through the next generation and
(07:44):
saying there is actually in the Constitution a phrase it
says separation of church and State. There's not, and that
misinformation is going to our kids. It's funny to me
because the people who are constantly fighting to protect the
misofmain and not having any misinformation really seemed to not
be educated on this one critical piece, this critical item
(08:07):
that your religious liberty is there for you and it's
meant to be protected.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yes, absolutely, I'm so glad you brought that up, because,
like you said, separation of church and state is not
in the constitution. What is in the Constitution right there
in our first Amendment, is that free exercise of religion
is protected, and so is free speech. And the phrase
separation of church and state actually comes from a letter
that Thomas Jefferson wrote to a group of Baptists who
(08:32):
were afraid that they were going to lose their heads
because of their faith, because that was something that had
happened in the Old World where they had emigrated from.
And he assured them that there would be a separation,
but the purpose of it was to protect the church
and to protect especially religious minorities who were afraid of
government persecution. And he said that won't happen because the
government is not allowed to encroach on your freedom. So
(08:56):
that's the backstory to that phrase. But I think you're
absolutely right that there is a lot of information going on,
and so a lot of what we try to do
at First Librity is we try to educate on these issues,
and if we need to educate the educators, you know,
we're happy to do that to explain to school districts
that actually, the law protects religious speech and religious diversity
is a strength of our country and that's something that
(09:18):
the next generation needs to know. Think.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
I think also so proud of the mom in this
situation because so often as parents were going through something,
we have something like this come and we take our
kid aside and we say, okay, well what are we
learning from this? And we don't fight back because it
can be really hard to fight back, especially going on
the local news, and especially with all the turmoil we've
(09:43):
seen with these situations of parents going to school board meetings.
I like this story because it doesn't seem like there's
a lot of anger involved, and there isn't. Because Sabrina
is a religious person and she's she seems to be
very filled with joy. It was this isn't right, Let's
have a discussion. That's not what we hear every day.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That's right. I'm so glad Sabrina was brave enough to
stand up, and it's very intimidating, especially as a high
school student. You know, peer pressure is a real influence.
But she was not concerned about that. She just wanted
to do what was right. And I think the ripple
effect of her courage is that other students now are
braver and they're more willing to paint their own parking spaces.
(10:27):
And we actually heard from some students in Georgia just
last week. They had reached out to us about a
similar issue when they heard about Sabrina's story, and their
school changed their policies. So now they're allowed to go
back to their parking spaces and add the religious imagery
that they wanted to add, which their school had initially
told them they couldn't have. So I thought that was
a really special yeah, just a really special impact of
(10:49):
you know, Sabrina's courage up in New York is benefiting
some students down in Georgia who now they're able to
express their faith.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
To Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next
on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. When I heard this, I
was like, I have to talk about this because I
think we have so many parents and grandparents that listen
to this podcast, and it's one thing to educate the kids,
but I think even our generation needs to be hearing
(11:15):
you shouldn't just accept that you're being pushed to the side.
These are your rights. Your rights are very serious, and
it gives parents and grandparents the chance to say, when
we have this happen to us, we shouldn't We don't
have to get angry. We don't have to go to
jump on social media and immediately yell and scream about
what's happening. Go have that conversation because oftentimes you can
(11:36):
change something. And that's something that we've had, even when
we've had kids that have been hurt or emotionally hurt
by a school, the importance of knowing that there are
tools to fight back. And that's so I want you
to talk a little bit about your organizations and maybe
a few of the other cases that you've been successful
and so parents know there is another opportunity to have
(11:58):
another path.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yes, absolutely so. I work at First Liberty Institute. We
are a nonprofit nationwide law firm and we represent clients
of all faiths, which we love to do, but we
are a Christian ministry, so our team has that shared understanding,
which is also really helpful. And we represent our clients
for free, and the only way we're able to do
that is that we are supported by really generous donors
(12:23):
from all across the US, and so there's more information
on our website at first Liberty dot org. There's a
place where folks can give and there's also a place where,
as I mentioned, you can request legal help. And that's
how Sabrina's family got in touch with us. So certainly,
if listeners have a family member who's maybe going through
a religious freedom issue, please do feel free to reach
(12:44):
out to us, because that's how we meet a lot
of our clients. And one other thing I'll mention, we
just recently put together a very up to date toolkit
that's designed for students to know their rights in public schools.
So I'm happy to share a link with you if
that would be helpful to send out to listeners. It's
(13:05):
a lot of legal precedents that are sort of explained,
and we tried to do it in you know, understandable terms,
so you don't have to wait through a lot of legalies.
But there's a lot of good information in there and
we hope that that really equips students and parents to
know their rights and to know you are free to
speak about your faith. You're free to have a Christian
club at school. Your club has to be treated just
(13:27):
the same as every other club. That parents are able
to view the curriculum that their children are learning. They're
able to opt out if that curriculum interferes with their faith.
There's really a lot more rights that people have that again,
they don't always know, and a lot of times the
school district will tell you an incorrect version of your
(13:47):
rights based on this outdated idea that you know, church
and state have to be completely separate, when actually there's
a lot of space for religious expression as long as
it's voluntary and as long as it's coming from students.
You know, there's so much freedom that we have in
our public schools today.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
I know, we had a story a while back of
a school that allowed social clubs, and they had multiple
social clubs, and they even had a Church of Satan club,
but they said that there couldn't be a Christian club
because that was religious, and the parents fought back on that,
and the school ultimately had to give in and say, Okay, actually,
I guess that that is the correct answer you can
(14:28):
have one of these. Is that the type of case
you generally see, or what are some of the other
issues that you've experienced.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, we've definitely had some student club cases. Just last year,
we represented a fifth grader in Seattle who wanted to
start an interfaith prayer club. It wasn't even focused on
one faith, it was inter faith, and the school said, no,
absolutely not. But of course they had approved a pride
club just a few weeks earlier, and so there again
we threatened to sue. We ended up not having to
(14:56):
litigate because the school did agree to allow the prayer clubs,
so that was a great win for that student. And
we also work on parental rights. So right now we
have a case in California where some fifth graders were
forced to teach kindergarteners about changing genders. And the fifth
graders were not comfortable with this because they were Christians.
(15:17):
And so when the parents reached out and asked, you know,
to be notified in the future and maybe opt out
if their child was going to be exposed to this,
the school said absolutely not. And so we are still
finding that case in California. The good news is that
the Supreme Court this summer, which loves in a similar
case that parents do have their rights their children of
(15:37):
any teaching that interferes with their faith. So that's another
thing parents should know, especially going into the school year.
You should ask to review the curriculum that your kid
will be exposed to, and then you should be able
to talk to and if there's any pushback of this,
please do reach out to us for celebrity, because we
very much to know their rights and to be able
to just talk if the materials in us in that
(16:00):
it aligns with their faith.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Did you just say that older kids were being told
they had to go talk to younger kids about the
fact that they could change their gender.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yes. It was a buddy mentoring program between fifth graders
and kindergarteners and they met every single week and they
would do activities together and it was just a great
sort of mentoring relationship. But then the last month of school,
the teachers introduced this book called My Shadow Is Pink,
which is essentially a little boy deciding he wants to
(16:30):
become a little girl, and that's what the fifth graders
had to teach to the kindergarten. So it was very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
There's so much that actually happens in school. I had
completely forgotten this until the other day. There's so much
that happens in your school that you really have to
be on top of what's going on and go to
every parent teacher conference and know what's happening, because I
think that there's a lot of stuff that naturally happens
in the school that they don't necessarily reach out and
tell parents about, and maybe because they're not thinking about it.
(16:59):
Like my daughter this was It's so funny because I
had no idea this was happening, and it's not like
something that I'm angry about. But this is just an
example of when you don't know what's happening at your school.
So there was a little boy in her class who
was struggling with reading. She was not struggling with reading,
but he had to leave class every day and they
(17:20):
would have him and like five other kids meet and
they would play games instead of reading. They didn't have
a I don't know if there was a reading specialist there,
but they would play board games during this time. I
don't really understand exactly what was happening, but at the
last parent teacher conference, they were like, Oh, your daughter
is so sweet. You know, she's the friend that so
(17:42):
and so picks every day to go to this special
classroom with him and they play these board games and
she's so sweet with him. And I was like, what
are you talking about? Then I come home and I'm like,
are you missing reading time at school? And she was like, oh, well,
I'm the choice because you know, so and so gets
to choose somebody every day to go with him and
he always wants me to go. And it's like, that's
(18:05):
very sweet, but you are missing critical time in class.
And I think that's something we don't think about. We
as parents have historically trusted the schools and you put
your kids in there, and it's something you really have
to talk to your kids about every day. What's happening
how a school? Are you being pulled out of classes?
You don't think about it, but it is very critical
(18:25):
that you know, and then you have an opportunity to
either go to the school or if it gets to
the point where they need to, they can come to you.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's right. Absolutely, I think that's such great advice for parents.
I would say, yeah, never assume that everything going on
is in your kids messengers or aligning with your faith,
and I think taking the time to go to the
meetings and meet the teachers and get to know and
build those relationships and to really be involved is really awesome.
And that's where you know, I love working with parents
(18:53):
and students. I think there's so much space for Christians
and for people of all faiths in our public schools.
But we have to speak up about our rights. We
have to know our rights and we have to advocate
for them, and at First Liberty we're very happy to
help folks do that. Well.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
I appreciate what you did here. I'm so glad that
we got to talk about it because I think it's
an important subject for people to know. So give us
the website one more time at First Liberty so in
case people need to go check it out and get
some help for themselves.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yes, absolutely, it's just first Liberty dot org.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Thank you so much, Kayla Tony. I appreciate you coming
on the podcast today. Thank you for having me absolutely,
and thank you all for joining us on the Tutor
Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to tutordisonpodcast
dot com, or you can head over to the iHeartRadio
app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and
you can watch the full video on Rumble or YouTube
(19:46):
at tutor Dixon and join us next time on the
Tutor Dixon podcast. Have a blessed day.
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