January 24, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, Tudor interviews Michael Franzese, a former mob boss of the Colombo crime family, who shares his journey from a life of crime to redemption through faith. Michael discusses the challenges of leaving the mob, the impact on his family, and the transformation he underwent while in prison. He also delves into the inner workings of the mafia, the connections between organized crime and politics, and the ongoing presence of the mafia in America today. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Well, I have to
tell you, when I was running for office, I met
a lot of guys in Detroit that I honestly said
to myself, does the mob still exist? Is there really
a mob? And I think when you grow up in
the suburbs in the Midwest, you think like these are
all just fantasy stories, and you watch The Godfather and
(00:22):
you think nothing was really ever like this. Well, apparently
it is and it was. And we have a I
don't know if we call him a former mob boss.
I guess that's what we'd call you, Michael. We've got
Michael Frenzies with us. He's one of the most notorious
mob bosses from the eighties, working as a captain in
the Colombo crime family in New York City. Rudy Giuliani
(00:45):
was after him, but he ended up serving ten years
in prison and became a born again Christian, left the mob,
walked away. How how do you walk away from the mob? Michael?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, thanks for having me toutor you know, it's not easy.
I can tell you that, and I never I never
really had. You know, there's no blueprint for walking away
from that life, not entering a witness protection program and
then going on to you know, be blessed as I
have and live a normal life, fairly normal anyway. But
you know I was determined. You know, you know the problem, Tutor.
(01:18):
I always call the mob life an evil life, and
I want to be clear on this. I'm not calling
the guys evil. I always one of them. I just
happened to be very blessed. But I don't know any
family of any member of that life that hasn't been
totally devastated, including my own now, not my wife and kids,
but my mother and father, brothers, sisters. It was just
that they're all devastating me. They're all it ended badly
(01:41):
for all of them. And when I met my current wife,
now we're going on forty years married this year, I said,
I don't want to do this to her. You know,
I have to make a choice because I was a
big target. I had been dieted several times, and I
had a big bulls eye on my back. It was
only a matter of time before they put me away
for a long time. So I had to make a choice.
(02:02):
It's either the life or her. But I didn't want
to hurt anybody. I didn't want to leave in that way,
I wasn't met anybody, So it was really it was
a really tough line that I had to walk for
several years. And I just you know, I attribute my
faith in God having a different plan and purpose from
my life for allowing me to be where I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
So how did that happen? I mean, you were one
of the most notorious mob bosses in New York City.
You were listed what in Forbes or something as one
of the top five mob bosses in the country, right, Well, it.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Was Fortune magazine that wrote a huge story back in
eighty six. They actually had a chart with was the
fifty most wealthy and powerful mob bosses in the country,
and I was actually number eighteen on the list of fifty.
I was the youngest guy on the list, and yeah,
I was one of the six that they wrote up
in that story. So yeah, I mean, you know, I
had a very high profile with them. I was arrested
(02:55):
eighteen times. I was indicted seven times. I had two
federal racketeers in cases, one state case. I went to
trial five times. I was either acquitted or dismissed in
every case. Very fortunate for that, So it was only
a matter of time. You know that they were coming
after me. So I had devised a scheme along with
another fellow, my partner at the time, to defraud the
(03:16):
government at attacks on every gallon of gasoline. It was
a big scheme. We were bringing down, honestly eight nine
ten million dollars a week in federal tax money and
state tax money that we were defrauding the government from.
And I took a plea on that case. I got
a ten year prison sentence. I had a fifteen million
dollar restitution, five million in forfeitures, and it was it
(03:37):
was part of the plan to take that plea, marry
my wife, who I had really only been with for
a year at that time, move out to California, and
after I did my time, I figured, you know, I
had parole and probation. You can't really meet with people
during that time. It's a violation. And I thought after
ten or twelve years, the guys in New York would
(03:58):
forget about me and I'd live out in CANi. It
didn't happen that way. It got kind of complicated, but
again without getting through the whole story, I was just
able to navigate it. And you had a lot of
tough moments. I had people mad at me on both sides.
My father, who was a major figure in that life,
you kind of disowned me for a while. We did
(04:18):
patch it up again, we did get back together.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
But it was but at a certain point, even your
father has a hit out on you. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, that's what the government told me. You know. They
came into the prison and they said it became public
that I was walking away. I mean a life magazine
did a big story on it, and they told me,
you know, we got word from our informants that you're
a dead man. May as well cooperate with us. We'll
put you in the program. I didn't want that. And
they said even your father went along with the hit.
And I said, well, you know, let me worry about
(04:47):
my dad. I said, you know, I didn't know if
that was true or not, but you know, my father
in some ways to protect himself because they didn't know
what I was going to do. They didn't know if
I was going to become a big informant, if I
was going to testify against people. It hurt a lot
of people, but that wasn't my It was never my plan.
I didn't want to do that, so It was tough.
It was tough to navigate. But you know, over a
(05:08):
period of time, what the FBI did to me to it,
it was really bad. They were putting my name on
the witness list of major trials that were.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Going on in New York though you weren't a witness.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, they were saying that I was going to technify.
And so even though I was telling my father, I
was sending word back, don't listen to this, it's not true.
Well that's what most informants say, and then they end
up on the witness land. But all these trials kept
coming up, and I never showed up. And then I
had done five years and I was out on parole
for thirteen months and the Feds were really on me
(05:40):
during that time. They ended up violating my parole put
me back in prison. So when I went back in prison,
everybody on the street was saying, well, this guy's not
coming after anybody. They put him back in prison. He
never appeared any of these trials, So things started to
turn around a little bit for me. That was a
you know, several year process, and like I said, it
(06:00):
just happened to work out.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But I mean, what an interesting faith story because here
you are making between five and eight million dollars a week.
You meet a woman, you fall in love, and she
introduces you to Jesus. That's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah it was. I mean, you know, her and her
mother were very strong Christians, and she was only twenty
years old when I met her, and I wasn't really
buying into it. I grew up Catholic, but I didn't
have a relationship with the Lord during that time. I
just went to Catholic school and like that. But you know,
I saw the way she carried herself and her mom,
and they were very serious about their faith. So I
(06:38):
respected it, but I wasn't buying into it. I still
had that mentality. But over a period of time, you know,
it really happened to me when I got violated and
they put me back in prison. They put me in
solitary that first night, and Tutor, I can honestly say
that was the worst night of my life because the
government was very upset with me for not cooperating. They
(07:00):
told me I was going to spend the rest of
my life in prison. They were bringing new charges against me.
I was only married a short time. We had two
babies at home. I said, hey, I'm going to lose
my wife, I'm going to lose my freedom. I'm going
to spend the rest of my life in this in solitary.
They can't put me on the yard. People are still
upset with me. I had visited my father for twenty
years in prison, so I said, what kind of life
(07:21):
is this? You know, I don't want to let this
young girl go through this. He's probably going to leave me.
It was all these things going through my head. And
you know, I used to say this. I used to
demean people that were suicidal. I call them weak. You know,
how do you not face up to your troubles? Well,
after that night, I never did that again because I
wasn't suicidal. But quite honestly, I just wanted to lay
(07:43):
my head on that cot and not wake up. It
was just too painful to think of my future. I
was only like thirty nine, forty years old. And then
a prison guard came by my cell and he looked
in and he said, you know, frenzies, you don't look good,
are you okay? And I chased them. I said, get
away from me. I don't want to see you guys tonight.
And he came back, I can push the Bible through
the slot on the door. And that was a turning
(08:04):
point for me. I can tell you I spent twenty
nine months and seven days in solitary. It was just
me and it's yeah. And it was during that time that,
you know, I really dove into my Bible, and you know,
I was on a search for the truth. There wasn't
I wasn't accepting it right away because my attitude that
(08:24):
night was, Hey, you know what, God, I followed my
father blindly into this life. I took a blood oath.
I gave this life everything. Look where it got me.
I said, I understand what my wife is telling me,
my mother in law, I said, but you got to
prove it to me. You know, I have to see
that this is real. And it was during that three
years almost in solitary, that I had my wife send
(08:46):
me books in on every faith. I was really in
a search for the truth. And I came out of
there believing with all my heart that the Bible was
God's word and that Jesus is my risen savior. And
He's only proved it to me further over the past
twenty five years in my life. But what I've seen
him do in other lives. So you know, I say
this all the time to it I'm not the best
Christian by far, there's no question about that. But my
(09:08):
faith is rock solid. Nobody can turn nobody can change
my faith. It's been too solid with me.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
No, there's only one guy that's the best Christian. Yes,
you're right, So I think we all fall into that
category to one extent or another. But how much more
freedom do you feel? I mean here, I think your
story is so fascinating because you're making more money than
any of us can or most of us can even imagine,
(09:37):
and yet you have to have this major freedom now
that you couldn't possibly have felt. Then what's it like
to have Rudy Giuliani looking after you every step of
the way, constantly worrying that you were either going to
get killed or go to jail.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, let me tell you the irony of that. Right
after this interview that we have, I'm sitting with Rudy's
Juliani's yes, and I think we're going to make history.
It's going to be the first time that a former
you know, mobster who was indicted by a prosecutor is
going to be actually sitting down and interviewing that prosecutor,
and I'm looking forward to it. You know, it was
(10:14):
tough because you know, I was constantly under investigation, and
my father it was the same. I mean, he was
more high profile than I was. I grew up with
law enforcement around us twenty four hours a day, seven
days a week. So I grew up hating the police.
I hated the government. I hated law enforcement because I
loved my dad and I always saw them as the
enemies trying to hurt my family. And I had many
(10:37):
run ins with them, as you know, as a kid.
So you know, to make this total opposite change and
to you know, you know, I think we all know
that God can transform a heart, but transforming a mind.
This whole distorted sense of view I had grown up
where you know, good was bad and bad was good.
God really had to do a number on me to
(10:57):
fix that. And today some of my did his friends
are in law enforce, you know, all across the country.
Because I understand, you know, they had a role, we
had a role, and they were the good guys. We
were the bad guys. And now I get it, but
I couldn't understand that before So it's been a real journey.
It really has been for me. But you know, I
have a real peace about me because I really do
(11:18):
believe in heaven and Hell. I think it's you know,
there's no getting around that in scripture, and I believe
in God's word, you know, if we sincerely repent our
sins and we accept Christ and we're going to be
with Him for all of eternity. And I have that
to look forward to, and it's given me a real
peace in my life.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, the Father in heaven, it's a beautiful story, but
it's not a story. It's a beautiful eternity and you
will go there. And that's the beauty of him leaving
the ninety nine and going after the one because you
were the one, yes, and he went after you. Let's
take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the
(11:57):
Tutor Dixon Podcast. How old were you when your dad
went to jail?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I was just turning nineteen. Well, wow, when he went
to jail permanently. Prior to that, he was in and
out because he was indicted several times. He was indicted
on a big murder case and they held him for
quite some time during that time. So I knew my
dad is going in and out of prison. But then
at nineteen he received a fifty year prison sentence, and
(12:26):
that's when he started his sentence, and my dad did
forty years on that fifty He was paroled five times
and violated his parole five times and kept going back,
you know. And I don't know if you know this too.
My father was released from prison in twenty seventeen after
doing his entire sentence with all the statutory good time.
(12:48):
He was one hundred years old. He was an oldest
inmate in the federal system at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
So what was it like to see he was released
at one hundred? Correct? Yes, what was that like for him?
I mean at that point, I assume you're completely out.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah. I was totally out of it at that point,
and it was you know, I mean I tried to
minister to my dad. You know, one of the one
of the guilts I carry around with me is that
I don't think I was effective enough. It was very
hard for me for some reason. And even though I
had sent the chaplain in to see him, and she
spent three hours with him, and she told me he
accepted Christ. During that time, I didn't see much evidence
(13:25):
of that afterwards. But you know, we judge people from
the outside and we see their outside behavior. I didn't,
you know, I can't judge his heart, but I'm hopeful
that my dad did accept Christ. But we had, you know,
we had some very difficult conversations during that time because
he he didn't like the fact that I left the life,
but he understood it, and I said, Dad, look at
(13:47):
our family. You know my mom she died in twenty twelve.
She was thirty three years without our husband at the
end of her relationship. I can only describe it with
my dad as being very ugly because she blamed him
everything that went wrong in her life, and rightfully so.
And what went wrong, well, my sister twenty seven years
old died is of an overdose of drugs. My brother
(14:08):
twenty five years a drug addict. I can't even begin
to tell you what, you know, the family went through,
and I personally went through just trying to keep him
alive on the street because he was kind of a
street kid. My younger sister, forty one, she died. She
was never mentally stable. So the whole family was destroyed.
So my mother was very bitter on that and I said, Dad,
look what happened to our family. I said, I couldn't
(14:30):
marry this young girl and bring her into the same situation.
I said, you know, I hope you understand that. And
he did, but his commitment to that life would never
allow him to fully say, Okay, he did the right thing.
But I understood it.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I knew my father, which is probably also why it's
very hard to come to him and show him Christ
because showing someone Christ is being vulnerable. It's hard to
be vulnerable with someone who is like your dad.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, it really was, and you know, you know, unfortunately
for my dad, he wanted his legacy to be that
he died with his boots on. He would never go
against the life. He was a stand up guy all
the way. That was his mentality. I didn't want to
take that from him because I knew how important it
was for him, and that's how he passed. You know,
(15:19):
he would he would never talk to the FBI. He
did fifty years and tutor, he did fifty years for
a crime he didn't commit. My dad was framed. I'll
take that to my grave. I was guilty of my crime.
My dad did a lot of bad things in his life,
don't get me wrong, But that particular crime that he
did all the time for he was frank he was
innocent of I actually investigated that case, spoke to every
(15:42):
witness that testified against him. They recanted dead testimony, we
gave him lie. Detective tests prove they lied at the trial.
We can never get the conviction overturned. So I believe
with all my heart that my dad was framed and
he wouldn't talk to the FBI. He said, no, this
is my life. This is my life. And he did
forty years as a result of that. So, I mean,
there's a certain amount of respect I have for him
(16:04):
maintaining that principle, but it was really, you know, it's
really misled principle. And hopefully, like I said, he within
his heart he did accept Christ. I'm hopeful, But I thought.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
At the beginning, he really didn't want you to go
into this life. Weren't you pre med?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, he didn't want this life for me. He wanted
me to be a doctor. You know, he was pushing
me in that direction. You know, I was an athlete
in school. He didn't want this life for me. He said,
stun stay off the street, get an education, that's what
it's all about. The only time. You know, I made
the decision basically because when my dad went to prison,
Joe Colombo, who was our boss, he kind of took
(16:42):
me under his wing. I was very close to him.
He was kind of my mentor. He had the Italian
American Civil Rights League back then that I was very
much a part of. I thought it was way to
help my dad, and I got influenced by a lot
of the guys on the street that I was meeting
at that time, and they were selling me Mike, you know,
if you go too, you don't help your father, he's
going to die in prison. So I kind of had
(17:03):
a little bit of guilt about it, and I went
to see my dad in level Worth Penitentiary and I said, Dad,
I'm not going to school. If I don't help you out,
you're going to die in you because I looked at him.
You know, my dad was indicted and convicted of masterminding
a nationwide series of back robberies, and you know, it
didn't sit right with me because my dad didn't have
that principle and all the witnesses that testified against him
(17:25):
were drug addicts, and my dad hated drugs. He hated
anything to do with drugs. He would actually tell make
up stories about drugs to scare me from never taking drugs.
So I knew. I said, it didn't sit right that
my dad would, you know, associate with these kind of people.
When I said to him, Dad, bank robbery, he looked
at me. He said, son, I'm innocent. I was framed
(17:47):
on this case, he said, and we got to prove
my innocence. So I believed him until this moment. I
believe him, and that's what influenced me. And so we
were in the penitentiary and level worth and I said,
I'm not going to school. He argued with me a
little bit, but I was ahead strong kid, and he said, okay,
but if you're going to be on the street, I
want you on the street the right way. And that's
when he proposed me for membership into the Light.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast. So you were not exactly what
we see in the movies as a traditional New York
City mobster. You were really the mastermind behind a lot
of this. You were the smart guy that was planning
(18:28):
and it wasn't so much violence that you were using,
but intelligence, scheming, and negotiation. I would say, I mean
that's what I've read about.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Well, you know, let's put it this way. You know,
you're in the life. I'm not going to absolve myself.
You know, you're in a situation where you have to
do certain things if you're going to be in that life.
So I want to make that clear. However, you know,
I was I was fortunate. I knew how to use
that life to benefit me in business, and I had
a head for business. So I kind of brought some
(19:01):
new things into the family, Like this whole you know,
gas Geme was was very complicated. We put it together.
So yeah, I mean I was more looked at as
a racketeer, you know, one of the guys that were
bringing money into the family. You know, in our in
the Columbo family, we had about two hundred and fifteen
made guys, guys that actually took the oath. We had
(19:22):
a lot of associates, but these were guys that actually
took the oath. Out of the two hundred I'm sorry,
one hundred and fifteen. Out of the one hundred and fifteen,
maybe twenty of us were real earners. The rest of
the guys were just street guys trying to grind out
a living doing this and that and that. So you know,
you had maybe twenty guys supporting the whole family. So
they kind of, you know, they want you to continue
(19:44):
bringing money into the family because like any other organization,
without money, you don't you don't exist.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So I act like I'm a complete idiot. The family
is like multiple families together. You're all bringing money in
and supporting it. Like, how does what is the behind
the scenes of how this actually work? Because I think
it's like one family, but it's actually multiple families, right
that are working together.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, in New York, you had five separate families, you know.
They each family had their own boss and their own hierarchy,
their own leadership, and their own guys. So you don't
operate together. I mean, there are times when you work
together on certain things, but each family is independent, so
they don't. It's not like you work together to make
money together.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Even though that like the people who are part of
the Colombo mafia, were you related to everybody?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
No, so you're all just in a family. Doesn't necessarily
mean you're related.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Correct, It's just called a family. And there is a
lot of nepotism in that life. A lot of fathers
bring their sons in and their nephews because it's a
security deal. You feel if you're bringing your family in,
you know they're never going to turn against you. So
there's a lot of nepotism in that life. But you
operate independently. Now, there were times when we worked with
(20:58):
the other families, obviously, because in New York, you know,
you're practically falling over one another because you know, you're
all there in the same territories New York City, Brooklyn,
Long Island, you know, New Jersey. But you're an independent family.
So each family had to take care of itself. So
you had guys in the family that you know, brought
the money in, and you had other guys that did
(21:19):
some of the other work, you know, And that's how
it went.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So there and there were legitimate businesses and then there
were not so legitimate business.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean I had two automobile dealerships that I owned.
I had a leasing company. I was involved in a
couple of restaurants and things like that, So you had both.
I had a film company back then it was legitimate.
And then you had your illegal things, you know, me
it was the whole gas tax scam. I was lending
money to people on the street, you know, charging them
interest rates. I had some bookmakers that were collecting, you know,
(21:52):
that were in the book making business with the gambling,
and they worked under me. So you have both.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So I mean, how do you how do you? You said
the worst night in your life was the night in prison,
in solitary, But I feel like you would be constantly
looking over your shoulder. Isn't this life so hard?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know it is? You know. I can give you
an example. I once a couple of years ago, I
went to the doctor because I had something where your
beard starts to you know, you lose little spots of it.
I forget what it's called condition. It's temporary. But when
I went to the doctor, he said to me, normally
this is caused by stress. Do you have stress? And
I said, Doc, I don't know. I said, I lived
(22:36):
a certain way my whole life. I said, I've always
had you know, without getting into detail, I said, I
don't know what stress really is. And so when you're
conditioned for it, like when you know that everybody you
speak to could be a government informant. Every place you go,
every telephone you pick up could be, you know, bugged.
Every room you're sitting in might have a bug in
(22:57):
the room. You just you just ad that. Then you
lived that way, so you're always thinking about it now.
Of course I don't feel the same way now. My
wife sometimes tells me, you know, you've you know, you
talk to people sometimes you don't know who they are.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And how do you talk about this now? How is
this okay? Aren't you aren't you still worried?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No, you know, listen to the bottom line, Tudor. I
did speak to the government, you know, because I tried
to make friends with them, but I never put anybody
in prison. I never went to that extent. I actually,
you know, was playing a little game with the government
where making them think I was going to cooperate, but
then I wouldn't, and that's why they threw me back
in prison. They knew that I was basically pulling a
(23:37):
scam on the government too, just trying to make my
life smooth out because I didn't know exactly how to
do this. So I never put anybody in prison. And Tutor,
listen to this, This is the truth. On that fortune
magazine article. Right, there was fifty of us in the
article was written in nineteen eighty six. Forty eight of
them are dead. Number forty nine is still in prison.
(24:00):
The only one alive in free. The night that I
took an oath, I took the old Halloween night in
nineteen seventy five, there was six of us that night.
I'm the only one alive. Today. They're all gone. I
just outlasted everybody. And all these new guys they don't
have it in for me. I mean, you know, I
never did anything to them and never bothered them. Now
I can't go back to Brooklyn and say, hey, guys,
(24:21):
I'm moving back into the neighborhood, you know. I mean,
that wouldn't be smart. It would be like I'm thumbing
my nose in their face. But you know, I always say,
God doesn't tell you to be stupid. You have to
use your head, you know. So I don't put myself
in positions like that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So there is still a faction of the mafia that exists.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Oh absolutely, yeah, it's not going to go away in
my lifetime. It's not nearly what it was during my lifetime,
during my era in that life, but it's not going away,
there's no question.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So would you say that that's mostly in New York
or is this something that we just don't know? I mean,
I ask because I've met with people a while I
was campaigning, and I was like, Man, this really feels
like a movie, you know, is it? Are there other
areas where we might not know that this exists?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah? I mean, look, you still have a presence in Chicago,
certainly in New York for sure, New Jersey, Detroit, Yes,
there's still a presence there, Philadelphia, places like that. But
it's you know, I always say the golden era of
the mafia Cosenouster in this country was really from the
mid forties, late forties right into the mid eighties when
(25:33):
Giuliani really took control and used the Rico Act very effectively,
and that was the that led to the real downfall
of the mob as we knew it back then. It's
not the same. They took a lot of the union
control away from us. You know, when you control the
unions in this country, you control the country to a
large degree, you really do. And we had control of
(25:54):
all the labor unions, the teamster unions, and we lost
all of that. It's not the same and so they
and you have to credit Giuliani for this, you really do,
because he used that Rico Act very effectively and that
kind of spread nationwide and really hurt a lot of
the families.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I mean, honestly, from a political standpoint, that's kind of
how we feel about the Democrats. If you control the unions,
but it's they take you know, there's a lot of
money that goes through there and it gets funneled into
these campaigns, and it's kind of shocking when you see
the unions have a massive amount of power and and
(26:31):
I'm not saying that the guys in the unions are
using that to their advantage, but I think there are
deals made with some of these politicians behind the scenes,
and it's been kind of shocking to see. I mean,
the private unions and the public unions, Like we pay
our taxpayer money and that goes right into getting somebody
into power.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's right, you know, Tutor. I wrote a book called
Mafia Democracy and the way I watched the government operate
over the pest of years, especially I'm saying in this
past administration, I mean, they operate like the mob. I mean,
I have to say that and you know, the book
is very credible. I didn't put any fluff for anything there.
(27:10):
As a matter of fact, Rudy Giuliani wrote the forward
to it, so he you know, he, you know, he
kind of endorsed it. But it's really sad, you know,
the corruption that I've seen over the past four years,
and I'm just so glad that part of it is
over and we have a new president I think is
really determined to straighten this country out. And I'm excited
(27:31):
about that, and I'm certainly supportive of it.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I mean, obviously I'm excited about that too. I feel
like this has been the best last ten days of
the country in years. You know, we saw so I
saw people running through the streets of Washington, d C.
Carrying Trump flags, and I was like, the country's changed.
This couldn't have happened four years ago. If somebody went
through the streets of Washington, D C. Carrying a flag
(27:56):
that said Trump, they they gosh, they'd take them down.
The police would take them down. So and I do
think that the police were weaponized against the people. Biden.
Before I let you go, just I want to get
your opinion on this, because obviously you're someone who spent
time in prison, your dad, and spent the last years
(28:16):
of his life in prison. Biden had some unusual pardons
of some pretty bad guys. What's your opinion of that,
being a guy who spent his sum of his life
in prison yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, tutor, I'm going to tell you this, and you
know I have no political bias. I just want the
best people in the best positions to do the best
for the country. But I will tell you this from
the information that I've seen that was uncovered by the
GOP investigation. You know, between the laptop, between the emails,
(28:47):
between the whistleblowers, the text messages, and all the information
on the laptop, there's no doubt in my mind, and
I'm an expert on this because I've had three racketeering indictments,
there's no doubt in my mind that Joe Biden could
have been indicted along with his family for racketeering. Whether
he got convicted, that's another story. But that's a racketeering
(29:10):
indictment without a doubt. And you know, for him to
preemptibly pardon his family going back ten years, I mean,
if that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know
what is Why did you have to do that? You know,
it's just terrible. And you know I've said this, and
you know people are worried about Trump taking revenge on
(29:34):
people what they did to him in this law fair
and the media being so complicit and covering up all
these things that we saw. I mean, it's not a
question of revenge, it's a question of justice and accountability.
Such horrible things have gone on in these past four
years between the border and everything else. If you don't
hold people accountable to this, when is it going to stop?
(29:57):
And I believe that the Justice of Artman and the
FBI need to investigate and hold these people accountable. Yesterday
I spoke to two people that were pardoned for the
January sixth dale and I'm going to post it next week.
What these people told me. They were never arrested before
in their life. One of them never even entered the
Capitol building the things he told me. I stood there
(30:21):
and I said, how could this happen? It's just terrible
that you can target people that your political enemies and
destroy their lives, basically destroy their lives. It has to stop.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
But I mean, that's what we've been saying for all
this time, and I'm not an expert. I'm just watching
from the outside, going gosh, houck. I can't imagine my
loved one being plucked off the street for going to
a protest and spending four years in solitary confinement. I
mean straining the water through a sock because the water
is so filled with russ The things that I've heard
(30:54):
from these people that went to a protest, like you said,
some of them not even in the building, outside the
building this and when you say you've seen government, and
I would say this has happened on both sides of
the aisle. Government being used like the mafia, like an
organization like this, because I mean, I just got a
(31:14):
call today from a guy who says he got elected
and he's not one of the old Republicans. He's what
you know, people consider a new Republican, like a maga Republican, right,
and he had former elected officials and some of the
I would say, wealthiest people in the state call him afterward,
(31:34):
refuse to help him during his campaign, call him afterward
and say, this is a time of peace. Do you
understand what we're saying?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Who does that? I mean, in the business world, people
don't do that in the in the regular world, like
in the media world, people don't call you and make
a backhanded threat to you. People I assume do that
to you in the world of the mafia. But look,
(32:01):
this is politics. Since when do you get a backhanded
threat the minute you get elected from your own side?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That scares me.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, it should. I mean, it's gotten to that point where,
you know, I think, I mean, Trump has got such
a massive job on his hands to straighten this country out.
But I think he really has to focus on straightening
out or draining the swamp as he calls it. I
really think that that's critical for this country. You know,
I feel and listen, I'm a street guy. I've seen
(32:32):
everything you can imagine, so I look at things a
little bit differently. I always have, you know, I'm always
you know, a little courtis when I'm looking at people.
If we would have had another four years of this administration,
this country was finished. There's no question was finished. It
was done. There was so much dishonesty, you know, and
again from a former mob guy, I'm looking at people
(32:54):
and saying dishonest. I knew what dishonesty was all about.
But it's glaring, it's right in front of you. And
you know what, I cannot believe how people to be
we on the street tried to hide things. You know,
we didn't try to, you know, be so out in
the open about what we did, but they lie on
camera this video. I just can't understand it. I don't
(33:18):
know how a man can conduct himself like that and
just be so outrageous in their lives and the deception
and think that it's okay. They feel like they're just
above everything.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Because when you're the government, who's coming for you, that's
how they feel. We are the government. You can't take
us down. I mean, it's really twisted. And I've so
enjoyed talking to you. You have a YouTube show, this
is where you're talking to Rudy. Yes, yes, okay, So
tell us how to find it.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Well, it's on YouTube. It just at Michael Francis and
I have a big platform there and I'm all over
social media and I'm very easy to find. But YouTube
is the main platform, and so we're you know, I
start the platform really by talking about mob stories and
you know, all my experiences. But after a while you
run out of stories. You know, I'm not going to
(34:07):
make them up. So I'm you know, I've never been
so invested in politics as I have been in the past,
you know, ten or twelve years. When you know, when
you have I have seven children, I have seven grandchildren,
and you worry about their future. Yes, so you know this,
This is what got me so invested because before that,
you know, I didn't really care about it too much.
(34:27):
But I'm worried about my kids and my grandkids, so
I got really invested in it. So now my platform,
I've had a lot of great interviews with people, and
you know, my whole thing is just making people aware
of really what's going on from my perspective. Now, I
do tell some you know, I like, if you notice
this canvas behind me, there's the fifty mob bosses. So
(34:49):
I'm doing a documentary style on every one of them,
and people love it. I mean, they love to hear
it from my perspective. So we give them a lot
of the mob stuff, but I also deal with events
and things like that. And you know, I would love
to have you on at some point because you have
a fascinating story. Also, really, are you going to run
(35:10):
for politics anymore?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I'm looking at it for sure. I'm not saying I'm done,
that's for sure, because I mean when I talk to
people like you and I hear about and I talked
to the like the gentleman I spoke to earlier who
got that backhanded threat, I think about the importance of
exactly what you're doing, fighting back exactly what Trump's doing.
Come on, let's take this country back. This country was
(35:33):
a country for the people. The idea that we have
these oligarchs, these billionaires that come in and think they
can control I mean, it's funny because what you're saying
on our side, on the Republican side, I do think
that you have a certain group of families that they
I always say that the politicians are the chess pieces
for the rich, and on the other side, it's also
(35:53):
billionaires and unions, and you just become a chess piece.
But Trump was the one guy that came out and
said of no one's chest piece, and he won because
the people were with him. And that's why I think
it has to go back to people who are going
to say I'm not going to be a chess piece
for the rich.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, no, Tuta, absolutely, I've followed you on Fox. I've
watched you many times, and so I'm a supporter and
I wish you would throw your hat back into the
rink because we need people to be honest, and we
need people you know, you're very credible and we need
we need people like you in it. I mean, I
can never run for office, you know. My platform is
just to make people aware of what's going on and
(36:31):
hopefully they listen. And so for me, it's about providing
information and perspective. But you know, for you, it's leadership
and you have credibility and and I really hope that
you do pursue it really well.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Thank you, Thank you. I'm in the midst of talking
to advisors, so I appreciate you being one of them
right now. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well. Yeah, and Joe is very supportive of you also,
so he uh, I think he would like to see
that happen again too. Well.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I love I love Joe and his family, and I'm
so glad he connected us. Michael Frenzies, thank you so
much for coming on. I'm so I'm so enjoyed. This
was an unusual podcast because we don't generally get to
talk about things like this, and I've loved every minute
of it.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Well, I appreciate that. And you know, I'll be visiting
Joe too. I think he wants me to come down
Diamo in a couple of months, so maybe we can
get together and have dinner. I'd love for you to
meet my wife and it would be nice.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
That would be fantastic. Let's plan on that. I will,
I will be in touch. We'll definitely do that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you very much, Thank you, and thank you all
for listening to the podcast. Check out the Tutor Dixon
podcasts at the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts and join us next time. Have a
blessed day.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Well, I have to
tell you, when I was running for office, I met
a lot of guys in Detroit that I honestly said
to myself, does the mob still exist? Is there really
a mob? And I think when you grow up in
the suburbs in the Midwest, you think like these are
all just fantasy stories, and you watch The Godfather and
(00:22):
you think nothing was really ever like this. Well, apparently
it is and it was. And we have a I
don't know if we call him a former mob boss.
I guess that's what we'd call you, Michael. We've got
Michael Frenzies with us. He's one of the most notorious
mob bosses from the eighties, working as a captain in
the Colombo crime family in New York City. Rudy Giuliani
(00:45):
was after him, but he ended up serving ten years
in prison and became a born again Christian, left the mob,
walked away. How how do you walk away from the mob? Michael?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, thanks for having me toutor you know, it's not easy.
I can tell you that, and I never I never
really had. You know, there's no blueprint for walking away
from that life, not entering a witness protection program and
then going on to you know, be blessed as I
have and live a normal life, fairly normal anyway. But
you know I was determined. You know, you know the problem, Tutor.
(01:18):
I always call the mob life an evil life, and
I want to be clear on this. I'm not calling
the guys evil. I always one of them. I just
happened to be very blessed. But I don't know any
family of any member of that life that hasn't been
totally devastated, including my own now, not my wife and kids,
but my mother and father, brothers, sisters. It was just
that they're all devastating me. They're all it ended badly
(01:41):
for all of them. And when I met my current wife,
now we're going on forty years married this year, I said,
I don't want to do this to her. You know,
I have to make a choice because I was a
big target. I had been dieted several times, and I
had a big bulls eye on my back. It was
only a matter of time before they put me away
for a long time. So I had to make a choice.
(02:02):
It's either the life or her. But I didn't want
to hurt anybody. I didn't want to leave in that way,
I wasn't met anybody, So it was really it was
a really tough line that I had to walk for
several years. And I just you know, I attribute my
faith in God having a different plan and purpose from
my life for allowing me to be where I am today.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
So how did that happen? I mean, you were one
of the most notorious mob bosses in New York City.
You were listed what in Forbes or something as one
of the top five mob bosses in the country, right, Well, it.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Was Fortune magazine that wrote a huge story back in
eighty six. They actually had a chart with was the
fifty most wealthy and powerful mob bosses in the country,
and I was actually number eighteen on the list of fifty.
I was the youngest guy on the list, and yeah,
I was one of the six that they wrote up
in that story. So yeah, I mean, you know, I
had a very high profile with them. I was arrested
(02:55):
eighteen times. I was indicted seven times. I had two
federal racketeers in cases, one state case. I went to
trial five times. I was either acquitted or dismissed in
every case. Very fortunate for that, So it was only
a matter of time. You know that they were coming
after me. So I had devised a scheme along with
another fellow, my partner at the time, to defraud the
(03:16):
government at attacks on every gallon of gasoline. It was
a big scheme. We were bringing down, honestly eight nine
ten million dollars a week in federal tax money and
state tax money that we were defrauding the government from.
And I took a plea on that case. I got
a ten year prison sentence. I had a fifteen million
dollar restitution, five million in forfeitures, and it was it
(03:37):
was part of the plan to take that plea, marry
my wife, who I had really only been with for
a year at that time, move out to California, and
after I did my time, I figured, you know, I
had parole and probation. You can't really meet with people
during that time. It's a violation. And I thought after
ten or twelve years, the guys in New York would
(03:58):
forget about me and I'd live out in CANi. It
didn't happen that way. It got kind of complicated, but
again without getting through the whole story, I was just
able to navigate it. And you had a lot of
tough moments. I had people mad at me on both sides.
My father, who was a major figure in that life,
you kind of disowned me for a while. We did
(04:18):
patch it up again, we did get back together.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
But it was but at a certain point, even your
father has a hit out on you. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Well, that's what the government told me. You know. They
came into the prison and they said it became public
that I was walking away. I mean a life magazine
did a big story on it, and they told me,
you know, we got word from our informants that you're
a dead man. May as well cooperate with us. We'll
put you in the program. I didn't want that. And
they said even your father went along with the hit.
And I said, well, you know, let me worry about
(04:47):
my dad. I said, you know, I didn't know if
that was true or not, but you know, my father
in some ways to protect himself because they didn't know
what I was going to do. They didn't know if
I was going to become a big informant, if I
was going to testify against people. It hurt a lot
of people, but that wasn't my It was never my plan.
I didn't want to do that, so It was tough.
It was tough to navigate. But you know, over a
(05:08):
period of time, what the FBI did to me to it,
it was really bad. They were putting my name on
the witness list of major trials that were.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Going on in New York though you weren't a witness.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, they were saying that I was going to technify.
And so even though I was telling my father, I
was sending word back, don't listen to this, it's not true.
Well that's what most informants say, and then they end
up on the witness land. But all these trials kept
coming up, and I never showed up. And then I
had done five years and I was out on parole
for thirteen months and the Feds were really on me
(05:40):
during that time. They ended up violating my parole put
me back in prison. So when I went back in prison,
everybody on the street was saying, well, this guy's not
coming after anybody. They put him back in prison. He
never appeared any of these trials, So things started to
turn around a little bit for me. That was a
you know, several year process, and like I said, it
(06:00):
just happened to work out.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
But I mean, what an interesting faith story because here
you are making between five and eight million dollars a week.
You meet a woman, you fall in love, and she
introduces you to Jesus. That's a pretty big deal.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah it was. I mean, you know, her and her
mother were very strong Christians, and she was only twenty
years old when I met her, and I wasn't really
buying into it. I grew up Catholic, but I didn't
have a relationship with the Lord during that time. I
just went to Catholic school and like that. But you know,
I saw the way she carried herself and her mom,
and they were very serious about their faith. So I
(06:38):
respected it, but I wasn't buying into it. I still
had that mentality. But over a period of time, you know,
it really happened to me when I got violated and
they put me back in prison. They put me in
solitary that first night, and Tutor, I can honestly say
that was the worst night of my life because the
government was very upset with me for not cooperating. They
(07:00):
told me I was going to spend the rest of
my life in prison. They were bringing new charges against me.
I was only married a short time. We had two
babies at home. I said, hey, I'm going to lose
my wife, I'm going to lose my freedom. I'm going
to spend the rest of my life in this in solitary.
They can't put me on the yard. People are still
upset with me. I had visited my father for twenty
years in prison, so I said, what kind of life
(07:21):
is this? You know, I don't want to let this
young girl go through this. He's probably going to leave me.
It was all these things going through my head. And
you know, I used to say this. I used to
demean people that were suicidal. I call them weak. You know,
how do you not face up to your troubles? Well,
after that night, I never did that again because I
wasn't suicidal. But quite honestly, I just wanted to lay
(07:43):
my head on that cot and not wake up. It
was just too painful to think of my future. I
was only like thirty nine, forty years old. And then
a prison guard came by my cell and he looked
in and he said, you know, frenzies, you don't look good,
are you okay? And I chased them. I said, get
away from me. I don't want to see you guys tonight.
And he came back, I can push the Bible through
the slot on the door. And that was a turning
(08:04):
point for me. I can tell you I spent twenty
nine months and seven days in solitary. It was just
me and it's yeah. And it was during that time that,
you know, I really dove into my Bible, and you know,
I was on a search for the truth. There wasn't
I wasn't accepting it right away because my attitude that
(08:24):
night was, Hey, you know what, God, I followed my
father blindly into this life. I took a blood oath.
I gave this life everything. Look where it got me.
I said, I understand what my wife is telling me,
my mother in law, I said, but you got to
prove it to me. You know, I have to see
that this is real. And it was during that three
years almost in solitary, that I had my wife send
(08:46):
me books in on every faith. I was really in
a search for the truth. And I came out of
there believing with all my heart that the Bible was
God's word and that Jesus is my risen savior. And
He's only proved it to me further over the past
twenty five years in my life. But what I've seen
him do in other lives. So you know, I say
this all the time to it I'm not the best
Christian by far, there's no question about that. But my
(09:08):
faith is rock solid. Nobody can turn nobody can change
my faith. It's been too solid with me.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
No, there's only one guy that's the best Christian. Yes,
you're right, So I think we all fall into that
category to one extent or another. But how much more
freedom do you feel? I mean here, I think your
story is so fascinating because you're making more money than
any of us can or most of us can even imagine,
(09:37):
and yet you have to have this major freedom now
that you couldn't possibly have felt. Then what's it like
to have Rudy Giuliani looking after you every step of
the way, constantly worrying that you were either going to
get killed or go to jail.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, let me tell you the irony of that. Right
after this interview that we have, I'm sitting with Rudy's
Juliani's yes, and I think we're going to make history.
It's going to be the first time that a former
you know, mobster who was indicted by a prosecutor is
going to be actually sitting down and interviewing that prosecutor,
and I'm looking forward to it. You know, it was
(10:14):
tough because you know, I was constantly under investigation, and
my father it was the same. I mean, he was
more high profile than I was. I grew up with
law enforcement around us twenty four hours a day, seven
days a week. So I grew up hating the police.
I hated the government. I hated law enforcement because I
loved my dad and I always saw them as the
enemies trying to hurt my family. And I had many
(10:37):
run ins with them, as you know, as a kid.
So you know, to make this total opposite change and
to you know, you know, I think we all know
that God can transform a heart, but transforming a mind.
This whole distorted sense of view I had grown up
where you know, good was bad and bad was good.
God really had to do a number on me to
(10:57):
fix that. And today some of my did his friends
are in law enforce, you know, all across the country.
Because I understand, you know, they had a role, we
had a role, and they were the good guys. We
were the bad guys. And now I get it, but
I couldn't understand that before So it's been a real journey.
It really has been for me. But you know, I
have a real peace about me because I really do
(11:18):
believe in heaven and Hell. I think it's you know,
there's no getting around that in scripture, and I believe
in God's word, you know, if we sincerely repent our
sins and we accept Christ and we're going to be
with Him for all of eternity. And I have that
to look forward to, and it's given me a real
peace in my life.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Yeah, the Father in heaven, it's a beautiful story, but
it's not a story. It's a beautiful eternity and you
will go there. And that's the beauty of him leaving
the ninety nine and going after the one because you
were the one, yes, and he went after you. Let's
take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on the
(11:57):
Tutor Dixon Podcast. How old were you when your dad
went to jail?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I was just turning nineteen. Well, wow, when he went
to jail permanently. Prior to that, he was in and
out because he was indicted several times. He was indicted
on a big murder case and they held him for
quite some time during that time. So I knew my
dad is going in and out of prison. But then
at nineteen he received a fifty year prison sentence, and
(12:26):
that's when he started his sentence, and my dad did
forty years on that fifty He was paroled five times
and violated his parole five times and kept going back,
you know. And I don't know if you know this too.
My father was released from prison in twenty seventeen after
doing his entire sentence with all the statutory good time.
(12:48):
He was one hundred years old. He was an oldest
inmate in the federal system at the time.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
So what was it like to see he was released
at one hundred? Correct? Yes, what was that like for him?
I mean at that point, I assume you're completely out.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah. I was totally out of it at that point,
and it was you know, I mean I tried to
minister to my dad. You know, one of the one
of the guilts I carry around with me is that
I don't think I was effective enough. It was very
hard for me for some reason. And even though I
had sent the chaplain in to see him, and she
spent three hours with him, and she told me he
accepted Christ. During that time, I didn't see much evidence
(13:25):
of that afterwards. But you know, we judge people from
the outside and we see their outside behavior. I didn't,
you know, I can't judge his heart, but I'm hopeful
that my dad did accept Christ. But we had, you know,
we had some very difficult conversations during that time because
he he didn't like the fact that I left the life,
but he understood it, and I said, Dad, look at
(13:47):
our family. You know my mom she died in twenty twelve.
She was thirty three years without our husband at the
end of her relationship. I can only describe it with
my dad as being very ugly because she blamed him
everything that went wrong in her life, and rightfully so.
And what went wrong, well, my sister twenty seven years
old died is of an overdose of drugs. My brother
(14:08):
twenty five years a drug addict. I can't even begin
to tell you what, you know, the family went through,
and I personally went through just trying to keep him
alive on the street because he was kind of a
street kid. My younger sister, forty one, she died. She
was never mentally stable. So the whole family was destroyed.
So my mother was very bitter on that and I said, Dad,
look what happened to our family. I said, I couldn't
(14:30):
marry this young girl and bring her into the same situation.
I said, you know, I hope you understand that. And
he did, but his commitment to that life would never
allow him to fully say, Okay, he did the right thing.
But I understood it.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
I knew my father, which is probably also why it's
very hard to come to him and show him Christ
because showing someone Christ is being vulnerable. It's hard to
be vulnerable with someone who is like your dad.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yes, it really was, and you know, you know, unfortunately
for my dad, he wanted his legacy to be that
he died with his boots on. He would never go
against the life. He was a stand up guy all
the way. That was his mentality. I didn't want to
take that from him because I knew how important it
was for him, and that's how he passed. You know,
(15:19):
he would he would never talk to the FBI. He
did fifty years and tutor, he did fifty years for
a crime he didn't commit. My dad was framed. I'll
take that to my grave. I was guilty of my crime.
My dad did a lot of bad things in his life,
don't get me wrong, But that particular crime that he
did all the time for he was frank he was
innocent of I actually investigated that case, spoke to every
(15:42):
witness that testified against him. They recanted dead testimony, we
gave him lie. Detective tests prove they lied at the trial.
We can never get the conviction overturned. So I believe
with all my heart that my dad was framed and
he wouldn't talk to the FBI. He said, no, this
is my life. This is my life. And he did
forty years as a result of that. So, I mean,
there's a certain amount of respect I have for him
(16:04):
maintaining that principle, but it was really, you know, it's
really misled principle. And hopefully, like I said, he within
his heart he did accept Christ. I'm hopeful, But I thought.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
At the beginning, he really didn't want you to go
into this life. Weren't you pre med?
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, he didn't want this life for me. He wanted
me to be a doctor. You know, he was pushing
me in that direction. You know, I was an athlete
in school. He didn't want this life for me. He said,
stun stay off the street, get an education, that's what
it's all about. The only time. You know, I made
the decision basically because when my dad went to prison,
Joe Colombo, who was our boss, he kind of took
(16:42):
me under his wing. I was very close to him.
He was kind of my mentor. He had the Italian
American Civil Rights League back then that I was very
much a part of. I thought it was way to
help my dad, and I got influenced by a lot
of the guys on the street that I was meeting
at that time, and they were selling me Mike, you know,
if you go too, you don't help your father, he's
going to die in prison. So I kind of had
(17:03):
a little bit of guilt about it, and I went
to see my dad in level Worth Penitentiary and I said, Dad,
I'm not going to school. If I don't help you out,
you're going to die in you because I looked at him.
You know, my dad was indicted and convicted of masterminding
a nationwide series of back robberies, and you know, it
didn't sit right with me because my dad didn't have
that principle and all the witnesses that testified against him
(17:25):
were drug addicts, and my dad hated drugs. He hated
anything to do with drugs. He would actually tell make
up stories about drugs to scare me from never taking drugs.
So I knew. I said, it didn't sit right that
my dad would, you know, associate with these kind of people.
When I said to him, Dad, bank robbery, he looked
at me. He said, son, I'm innocent. I was framed
(17:47):
on this case, he said, and we got to prove
my innocence. So I believed him until this moment. I
believe him, and that's what influenced me. And so we
were in the penitentiary and level worth and I said,
I'm not going to school. He argued with me a
little bit, but I was ahead strong kid, and he said, okay,
but if you're going to be on the street, I
want you on the street the right way. And that's
when he proposed me for membership into the Light.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast. So you were not exactly what
we see in the movies as a traditional New York
City mobster. You were really the mastermind behind a lot
of this. You were the smart guy that was planning
(18:28):
and it wasn't so much violence that you were using,
but intelligence, scheming, and negotiation. I would say, I mean
that's what I've read about.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Well, you know, let's put it this way. You know,
you're in the life. I'm not going to absolve myself.
You know, you're in a situation where you have to
do certain things if you're going to be in that life.
So I want to make that clear. However, you know,
I was I was fortunate. I knew how to use
that life to benefit me in business, and I had
a head for business. So I kind of brought some
(19:01):
new things into the family, Like this whole you know,
gas Geme was was very complicated. We put it together.
So yeah, I mean I was more looked at as
a racketeer, you know, one of the guys that were
bringing money into the family. You know, in our in
the Columbo family, we had about two hundred and fifteen
made guys, guys that actually took the oath. We had
(19:22):
a lot of associates, but these were guys that actually
took the oath. Out of the two hundred I'm sorry,
one hundred and fifteen. Out of the one hundred and fifteen,
maybe twenty of us were real earners. The rest of
the guys were just street guys trying to grind out
a living doing this and that and that. So you know,
you had maybe twenty guys supporting the whole family. So
they kind of, you know, they want you to continue
(19:44):
bringing money into the family because like any other organization,
without money, you don't you don't exist.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
So I act like I'm a complete idiot. The family
is like multiple families together. You're all bringing money in
and supporting it. Like, how does what is the behind
the scenes of how this actually work? Because I think
it's like one family, but it's actually multiple families, right
that are working together.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Well, in New York, you had five separate families, you know.
They each family had their own boss and their own hierarchy,
their own leadership, and their own guys. So you don't
operate together. I mean, there are times when you work
together on certain things, but each family is independent, so
they don't. It's not like you work together to make
money together.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Even though that like the people who are part of
the Colombo mafia, were you related to everybody?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
No?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
No, so you're all just in a family. Doesn't necessarily
mean you're related.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Correct, It's just called a family. And there is a
lot of nepotism in that life. A lot of fathers
bring their sons in and their nephews because it's a
security deal. You feel if you're bringing your family in,
you know they're never going to turn against you. So
there's a lot of nepotism in that life. But you
operate independently. Now, there were times when we worked with
(20:58):
the other families, obviously, because in New York, you know,
you're practically falling over one another because you know, you're
all there in the same territories New York City, Brooklyn,
Long Island, you know, New Jersey. But you're an independent family.
So each family had to take care of itself. So
you had guys in the family that you know, brought
the money in, and you had other guys that did
(21:19):
some of the other work, you know, And that's how
it went.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So there and there were legitimate businesses and then there
were not so legitimate business.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, I mean I had two automobile dealerships that I owned.
I had a leasing company. I was involved in a
couple of restaurants and things like that, So you had both.
I had a film company back then it was legitimate.
And then you had your illegal things, you know, me
it was the whole gas tax scam. I was lending
money to people on the street, you know, charging them
interest rates. I had some bookmakers that were collecting, you know,
(21:52):
that were in the book making business with the gambling,
and they worked under me. So you have both.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
So I mean, how do you how do you? You said
the worst night in your life was the night in prison,
in solitary, But I feel like you would be constantly
looking over your shoulder. Isn't this life so hard?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
You know it is? You know. I can give you
an example. I once a couple of years ago, I
went to the doctor because I had something where your
beard starts to you know, you lose little spots of it.
I forget what it's called condition. It's temporary. But when
I went to the doctor, he said to me, normally
this is caused by stress. Do you have stress? And
I said, Doc, I don't know. I said, I lived
(22:36):
a certain way my whole life. I said, I've always
had you know, without getting into detail, I said, I
don't know what stress really is. And so when you're
conditioned for it, like when you know that everybody you
speak to could be a government informant. Every place you go,
every telephone you pick up could be, you know, bugged.
Every room you're sitting in might have a bug in
(22:57):
the room. You just you just ad that. Then you
lived that way, so you're always thinking about it now.
Of course I don't feel the same way now. My
wife sometimes tells me, you know, you've you know, you
talk to people sometimes you don't know who they are.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And how do you talk about this now? How is
this okay? Aren't you aren't you still worried?
Speaker 2 (23:17):
No, you know, listen to the bottom line, Tudor. I
did speak to the government, you know, because I tried
to make friends with them, but I never put anybody
in prison. I never went to that extent. I actually,
you know, was playing a little game with the government
where making them think I was going to cooperate, but
then I wouldn't, and that's why they threw me back
in prison. They knew that I was basically pulling a
(23:37):
scam on the government too, just trying to make my
life smooth out because I didn't know exactly how to
do this. So I never put anybody in prison. And Tutor,
listen to this, This is the truth. On that fortune
magazine article. Right, there was fifty of us in the
article was written in nineteen eighty six. Forty eight of
them are dead. Number forty nine is still in prison.
(24:00):
The only one alive in free. The night that I
took an oath, I took the old Halloween night in
nineteen seventy five, there was six of us that night.
I'm the only one alive. Today. They're all gone. I
just outlasted everybody. And all these new guys they don't
have it in for me. I mean, you know, I
never did anything to them and never bothered them. Now
I can't go back to Brooklyn and say, hey, guys,
(24:21):
I'm moving back into the neighborhood, you know. I mean,
that wouldn't be smart. It would be like I'm thumbing
my nose in their face. But you know, I always say,
God doesn't tell you to be stupid. You have to
use your head, you know. So I don't put myself
in positions like that.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
So there is still a faction of the mafia that exists.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Oh absolutely, yeah, it's not going to go away in
my lifetime. It's not nearly what it was during my lifetime,
during my era in that life, but it's not going away,
there's no question.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
So would you say that that's mostly in New York
or is this something that we just don't know? I mean,
I ask because I've met with people a while I
was campaigning, and I was like, Man, this really feels
like a movie, you know, is it? Are there other
areas where we might not know that this exists?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah? I mean, look, you still have a presence in Chicago,
certainly in New York for sure, New Jersey, Detroit, Yes,
there's still a presence there, Philadelphia, places like that. But
it's you know, I always say the golden era of
the mafia Cosenouster in this country was really from the
mid forties, late forties right into the mid eighties when
(25:33):
Giuliani really took control and used the Rico Act very effectively,
and that was the that led to the real downfall
of the mob as we knew it back then. It's
not the same. They took a lot of the union
control away from us. You know, when you control the
unions in this country, you control the country to a
large degree, you really do. And we had control of
(25:54):
all the labor unions, the teamster unions, and we lost
all of that. It's not the same and so they
and you have to credit Giuliani for this, you really do,
because he used that Rico Act very effectively and that
kind of spread nationwide and really hurt a lot of
the families.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I mean, honestly, from a political standpoint, that's kind of
how we feel about the Democrats. If you control the unions,
but it's they take you know, there's a lot of
money that goes through there and it gets funneled into
these campaigns, and it's kind of shocking when you see
the unions have a massive amount of power and and
(26:31):
I'm not saying that the guys in the unions are
using that to their advantage, but I think there are
deals made with some of these politicians behind the scenes,
and it's been kind of shocking to see. I mean,
the private unions and the public unions, Like we pay
our taxpayer money and that goes right into getting somebody
into power.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
That's right, you know, Tutor. I wrote a book called
Mafia Democracy and the way I watched the government operate
over the pest of years, especially I'm saying in this
past administration, I mean, they operate like the mob. I mean,
I have to say that and you know, the book
is very credible. I didn't put any fluff for anything there.
(27:10):
As a matter of fact, Rudy Giuliani wrote the forward
to it, so he you know, he, you know, he
kind of endorsed it. But it's really sad, you know,
the corruption that I've seen over the past four years,
and I'm just so glad that part of it is
over and we have a new president I think is
really determined to straighten this country out. And I'm excited
(27:31):
about that, and I'm certainly supportive of it.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I mean, obviously I'm excited about that too. I feel
like this has been the best last ten days of
the country in years. You know, we saw so I
saw people running through the streets of Washington, d C.
Carrying Trump flags, and I was like, the country's changed.
This couldn't have happened four years ago. If somebody went
through the streets of Washington, D C. Carrying a flag
(27:56):
that said Trump, they they gosh, they'd take them down.
The police would take them down. So and I do
think that the police were weaponized against the people. Biden.
Before I let you go, just I want to get
your opinion on this, because obviously you're someone who spent
time in prison, your dad, and spent the last years
(28:16):
of his life in prison. Biden had some unusual pardons
of some pretty bad guys. What's your opinion of that,
being a guy who spent his sum of his life
in prison yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Well, tutor, I'm going to tell you this, and you
know I have no political bias. I just want the
best people in the best positions to do the best
for the country. But I will tell you this from
the information that I've seen that was uncovered by the
GOP investigation. You know, between the laptop, between the emails,
(28:47):
between the whistleblowers, the text messages, and all the information
on the laptop, there's no doubt in my mind, and
I'm an expert on this because I've had three racketeering indictments,
there's no doubt in my mind that Joe Biden could
have been indicted along with his family for racketeering. Whether
he got convicted, that's another story. But that's a racketeering
(29:10):
indictment without a doubt. And you know, for him to
preemptibly pardon his family going back ten years, I mean,
if that's not an admission of guilt, I don't know
what is Why did you have to do that? You know,
it's just terrible. And you know I've said this, and
you know people are worried about Trump taking revenge on
(29:34):
people what they did to him in this law fair
and the media being so complicit and covering up all
these things that we saw. I mean, it's not a
question of revenge, it's a question of justice and accountability.
Such horrible things have gone on in these past four
years between the border and everything else. If you don't
hold people accountable to this, when is it going to stop?
(29:57):
And I believe that the Justice of Artman and the
FBI need to investigate and hold these people accountable. Yesterday
I spoke to two people that were pardoned for the
January sixth dale and I'm going to post it next week.
What these people told me. They were never arrested before
in their life. One of them never even entered the
Capitol building the things he told me. I stood there
(30:21):
and I said, how could this happen? It's just terrible
that you can target people that your political enemies and
destroy their lives, basically destroy their lives. It has to stop.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
But I mean, that's what we've been saying for all
this time, and I'm not an expert. I'm just watching
from the outside, going gosh, houck. I can't imagine my
loved one being plucked off the street for going to
a protest and spending four years in solitary confinement. I
mean straining the water through a sock because the water
is so filled with russ The things that I've heard
(30:54):
from these people that went to a protest, like you said,
some of them not even in the building, outside the
building this and when you say you've seen government, and
I would say this has happened on both sides of
the aisle. Government being used like the mafia, like an
organization like this, because I mean, I just got a
(31:14):
call today from a guy who says he got elected
and he's not one of the old Republicans. He's what
you know, people consider a new Republican, like a maga Republican, right,
and he had former elected officials and some of the
I would say, wealthiest people in the state call him afterward,
(31:34):
refuse to help him during his campaign, call him afterward
and say, this is a time of peace. Do you
understand what we're saying?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
Who does that? I mean, in the business world, people
don't do that in the in the regular world, like
in the media world, people don't call you and make
a backhanded threat to you. People I assume do that
to you in the world of the mafia. But look,
(32:01):
this is politics. Since when do you get a backhanded
threat the minute you get elected from your own side?
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (32:09):
That scares me.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Yeah, it should. I mean, it's gotten to that point where,
you know, I think, I mean, Trump has got such
a massive job on his hands to straighten this country out.
But I think he really has to focus on straightening
out or draining the swamp as he calls it. I
really think that that's critical for this country. You know,
I feel and listen, I'm a street guy. I've seen
(32:32):
everything you can imagine, so I look at things a
little bit differently. I always have, you know, I'm always
you know, a little courtis when I'm looking at people.
If we would have had another four years of this administration,
this country was finished. There's no question was finished. It
was done. There was so much dishonesty, you know, and
again from a former mob guy, I'm looking at people
(32:54):
and saying dishonest. I knew what dishonesty was all about.
But it's glaring, it's right in front of you. And
you know what, I cannot believe how people to be
we on the street tried to hide things. You know,
we didn't try to, you know, be so out in
the open about what we did, but they lie on
camera this video. I just can't understand it. I don't
(33:18):
know how a man can conduct himself like that and
just be so outrageous in their lives and the deception
and think that it's okay. They feel like they're just
above everything.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Because when you're the government, who's coming for you, that's
how they feel. We are the government. You can't take
us down. I mean, it's really twisted. And I've so
enjoyed talking to you. You have a YouTube show, this
is where you're talking to Rudy. Yes, yes, okay, So
tell us how to find it.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Well, it's on YouTube. It just at Michael Francis and
I have a big platform there and I'm all over
social media and I'm very easy to find. But YouTube
is the main platform, and so we're you know, I
start the platform really by talking about mob stories and
you know, all my experiences. But after a while you
run out of stories. You know, I'm not going to
(34:07):
make them up. So I'm you know, I've never been
so invested in politics as I have been in the past,
you know, ten or twelve years. When you know, when
you have I have seven children, I have seven grandchildren,
and you worry about their future. Yes, so you know this,
This is what got me so invested because before that,
you know, I didn't really care about it too much.
(34:27):
But I'm worried about my kids and my grandkids, so
I got really invested in it. So now my platform,
I've had a lot of great interviews with people, and
you know, my whole thing is just making people aware
of really what's going on from my perspective. Now, I
do tell some you know, I like, if you notice
this canvas behind me, there's the fifty mob bosses. So
(34:49):
I'm doing a documentary style on every one of them,
and people love it. I mean, they love to hear
it from my perspective. So we give them a lot
of the mob stuff, but I also deal with events
and things like that. And you know, I would love
to have you on at some point because you have
a fascinating story. Also, really, are you going to run
(35:10):
for politics anymore?
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I'm looking at it for sure. I'm not saying I'm done,
that's for sure, because I mean when I talk to
people like you and I hear about and I talked
to the like the gentleman I spoke to earlier who
got that backhanded threat, I think about the importance of
exactly what you're doing, fighting back exactly what Trump's doing.
Come on, let's take this country back. This country was
(35:33):
a country for the people. The idea that we have
these oligarchs, these billionaires that come in and think they
can control I mean, it's funny because what you're saying
on our side, on the Republican side, I do think
that you have a certain group of families that they
I always say that the politicians are the chess pieces
for the rich, and on the other side, it's also
(35:53):
billionaires and unions, and you just become a chess piece.
But Trump was the one guy that came out and
said of no one's chest piece, and he won because
the people were with him. And that's why I think
it has to go back to people who are going
to say I'm not going to be a chess piece
for the rich.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, no, Tuta, absolutely, I've followed you on Fox. I've
watched you many times, and so I'm a supporter and
I wish you would throw your hat back into the
rink because we need people to be honest, and we
need people you know, you're very credible and we need
we need people like you in it. I mean, I
can never run for office, you know. My platform is
just to make people aware of what's going on and
(36:31):
hopefully they listen. And so for me, it's about providing
information and perspective. But you know, for you, it's leadership
and you have credibility and and I really hope that
you do pursue it really well.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Thank you, Thank you. I'm in the midst of talking
to advisors, so I appreciate you being one of them
right now. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well. Yeah, and Joe is very supportive of you also,
so he uh, I think he would like to see
that happen again too. Well.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
I love I love Joe and his family, and I'm
so glad he connected us. Michael Frenzies, thank you so
much for coming on. I'm so I'm so enjoyed. This
was an unusual podcast because we don't generally get to
talk about things like this, and I've loved every minute
of it.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Well, I appreciate that. And you know, I'll be visiting
Joe too. I think he wants me to come down
Diamo in a couple of months, so maybe we can
get together and have dinner. I'd love for you to
meet my wife and it would be nice.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
That would be fantastic. Let's plan on that. I will,
I will be in touch. We'll definitely do that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Excellent.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Thank you very much, Thank you, and thank you all
for listening to the podcast. Check out the Tutor Dixon
podcasts at the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts and join us next time. Have a
blessed day.
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