In this powerful episode of The Tudor Dixon Podcast, Tudor sits down with Rosie Tilley to uncover the dark side of antidepressants—specifically SSRIs—and their devastating long-term side effects. Rosie shares her deeply personal story of life after taking Lexapro, including her battle with Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction (PSSD), a condition that has upended her health and well-being. Together, they explore the lack of long-term research on SSRIs, the cultural push toward overmedication, and the pharmaceutical industry’s role in keeping patients uninformed. This eye-opening conversation sheds light on the urgent need for awareness, accountability, and advocacy for those suffering from the hidden consequences of antidepressants. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are going
to be talking about a really hard subject. I know
we've had some conversations about SSRIs and I think, you know,
we've gotten a massive amount of feedback on that. I
think that some people feel like they don't want to
hear this story about medications, and then there's other groups
(00:21):
that are wanting to say, my goodness, this happened to me.
It's really hard to talk about, and I'm so glad
I'm hearing it about someone else, so I know I'm
not alone in this fight. And I've had a lot
of people reach out to me and kind of say
I've experienced this. I've experienced this, and for me as
a mom, I want to continue talking about this subject
(00:44):
because I think so many people have made the decision
to either be on these medications or put their children
on these medications and not understanding the real outcome that
it can have the side effects that we can be
dealing with. And I've actually had other parents to reach
out to me and say, I listen to what you
said and what your guests were saying, and I've decided
(01:06):
to either come off of these medications myself or take
my children off of these medications. Our guest today approached
me and we kind of I think I told a
story about her because I had heard her story through
another doctor, and so graciously she agreed to come on.
(01:26):
I'm so glad today because we have Rosie Tilly with us.
She is not only someone who has suffered some of
these side effects, but she also formed her own network
of PSSD survivors, I guess I would say, and sufferers.
So thank you so much for coming on today to
talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I really appreciate it, absolutely absolutely, So tell us a
little bit about your experience, because if I remember correctly,
it was doctor Joseph who was talking about your story
and saying, you know, there was you were a young woman.
You're obviously still a young woman when this happened, and
(02:07):
it was kind of stunning to you, and there was
sort of this uprising around you, people that were like,
this isn't happening.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, I will try and keep my story as
brief as I can, But basically, in twenty twenty, when
all the COVID lockdowns and everything were happening, I went
through a really bad period just mentally. I went through
what I would kind of describe as like a depression
and anxiety, just a really really rough period mentally, and
(02:36):
I did what everyone is encouraged to do, which is
reach out or see your doctor all of that, and
I ended up getting put on lexapro. I was sent
to a psychiatrist and then he prescribed me lexapro. I
took the drug for four and a half months. Horrible
side effects on the drug, and to this day I
(02:58):
have had permanence, actual dysfunction, emotional blunting, just complete changes
to like my perception sensory experiences I've had. Thankfully, my
cognitive issues have improved a little bit over the years,
but for the last five years, I have, yeah, effectively
(03:23):
been chemically corustrated by this drug, which was something that
I was told would happen while you're on the drug,
but don't worry because once you stop taking it, everything
will go away, everything will go back to normal. But
that's not true. I stopped taking the drug on this
I remember the last pill I took was like half
tiny tablet on December seventh of twenty twenty, and it's
(03:47):
now we're in October of twenty twenty five and I
almost feel as if I've taken the drug this morning,
that's how strongly I'm still affected by these adverse effects.
It something I was never warned about. I would never
have taken it if I knew that it would persist
for half a decade, if not more, or even you know,
if people say it takes that long to come back. Yeah,
(04:08):
I would never have gone down this about But yeah,
here I am.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So when you say they said it would happen only
while you were on the medication, did you think when
they said that they actually said you'll feel nothing, you'll
have these terrible sexual side effects, or was it like
you might have this, you might have this. Did they
explain what that could be or did they just say
sexual side effects?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I had to kind of it was quite strangely, when
I was first put on the medication, I was I
was given a very brief, one sentence warning about it.
So I guess it kind of like, you know, relieved
any anxiety I had about taking the medication. But it
was only after maybe a month of being on it
and I came back to the psychiatrist and I literally
(04:55):
said to him, these side effects are out of control,
Like I can't like this is not help me, essentially,
and that's when he was like, oh no, you know
all of these these effects is usually. He tried to
convince me that if I stay on the medication long enough,
my body will adjust to the medication and the side
effects will go away. And he even up to the
(05:18):
dose and I just was completely you know, I was
sitting there in his office. He had all his like
academic accolades on his walls. I was just like, this
guy is the guru, Like he obviously knows what he's doing.
But I later found out he clearly didn't, because I'm
here with all these art effects years later. But I
was I was never really told how severe this could be.
(05:42):
It's not just like a normal it's not like a
normal sexual dysfunction. It's like a complete chemical castration. And
I was never warned in any capacity that that's what
this would be. And you say it persist.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
When you say chemical castration, what is that? YEA, what
does that mean to us? Does that mean that you
just it's almost a said that you have no desire
at all, you cannot have a relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's so much more than that. It's my body physiologically
is no longer able to be sexually aroused in any form. Literally,
the way I describe it is like if you consider
your own libido and sexual arousal like a light switch
going on. It's almost like someone's pulled the plug out
(06:30):
of the wall and you turn the switch on at
the wall and nothing happens to the light. So that's
essentially what's happened to my body. It's like my entire
nervous system has been I don't know, like someone stuck
a fork in a PowerPoint and it's just completely broken.
I'm unable to feel anything like what I used to
be able to feel prior to taking this medication. And obviously,
(06:52):
like this is how ongoing affects to me, like mentally, physically, personally. Yeah,
it's so much more severe than not having a libido.
But I know for some people with PSSD, they might
their most severe symptom is they might have a missing libido.
But it's not just like, oh, I don't feel like
(07:12):
having sex right now, it's I am unable to feel
like even if I try, and if I don't feel
like this and I'm trying to feel something, I literally
am unable to feel anything. So it's a lot more
severe than just a lowered libido. I would almost argue
that it would be no libido whatsoever. You essentially become
completely asexual.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I don't want to insult you, but it almost sounds
like brain damage, Like it's like your brain doesn't function
in that area.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. Well, I've thought long and hard about what this
could be. I'm like, is this some form of brain damage?
Is there something that, like my neurons in my spine
no longer connect to my brain, Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
They don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Essentially, I can't even I can't fathom that you have
a drug like this that goes to so many people,
and I would argue that SSRIs are probably some of
the most prescribed medications out there that it could chemically
castrate a person, and a young person, I mean any
age person that it could chemically castrate you, and they
(08:23):
have no responsibility to even look into how it's happening
or have an explanation.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I think that's one of my biggest learnings from this
entire experience is realizing that the studies for these drugs
only ran for a maximum of up to twelve weeks
most of them, and once the study is finished, these
companies are not required by law at all to evaluate
(08:51):
what side effects did you experience during having the medication
during the treatment, and they're not required to follow you
up six months later to months later. Hey, Rosie, I
saw during this clinical trial that you experience sexual dysfunction.
It's been six months since you've stopped it, do you
still have these effects? And I feel like, because there's
all these little loopholes where they don't have to do this,
(09:13):
they're not going to do it. So when you actually
look at the research, the sexual side effects of SSRIs
have not been studied in any capacity in the long term.
The only people that have studied this. It seems kind
of bizarre, right, because you've got so many people that
take these drugs for so long, we put children on them.
You know, I was twenty when this happened to me.
(09:34):
I was an adult. I essentially consented to this. It
was uninformed consent, but I consented. Like there are a
lot of people putting their kids on these medications as
young as I've seen as young as eight years old
in the US. I'm not sure about it Australia, but
they genuinely don't realize that we have no idea if
these drugs are well, they are obviously affecting people long
(09:59):
term sexually, Like yeah, exactly, but we just there's never
I remember Audrey that is a she's a long time
sufferer of PSC. I think she got this in the
nineties and she's yeah, she's now in the latest stage
of her life and it's just affected her for years.
But she said this quote and it was something to
(10:19):
the effective. You know, no study has ever followed the
course of ssri I induced sexual dysfunction after a patient
has stopped taking the medication to evaluate when and to
what degree the side effects actually resolve. So we know
that people get the side effects whilst taking the drug,
(10:41):
and the pharmaceutical companies list that, but they do not
tell you how long it could last for a how
severe it could be. I mean, this is in the
this is in the DSM, Like this isn't the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It says that ssri
I induced sexual dysfunction may persist after stopping in the agent.
They just don't tell you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's insane. That's so insane to think that you could
put your own child, you could castrate your own child
and not know. And I don't you know when when
my daughter went into we took her to a therapist
and they immediately, well i would say within a month,
said that she has to be on one of these medications.
And I said, absolutely not, no way, there's no way.
(11:24):
And the pediatrician was like, oh, You've got to see
a psychiatrist. There's really no reason not to. And there
was no way. I was not going to put my
kid on a medication because she was anxious about washing
her hands at school. I'm like, but that was it.
I mean, that's to me, that's the crazy part about it.
This was a temporary phase that she had to get through.
(11:49):
But we put these we just immediately say we're going
to medicate. We're going to medicate, We're going to medicate
on so many things and that. And now, you know,
as I've grown as a parent, as I've got and
older as a parent, and I've seen my four kids
go through these different phases, I've seen that there are
there are hills and valleys like anything else, and there
(12:10):
are phases that we grow out of, and there are
phases that last longer than others. And I've seen this
with you know, I have girls, but I've seen this
with families that have boys. You know, boys are very rambunctious.
They're different than my girls. I can tell you They're
different and they don't pay attention to class, and it's
like we've got to I've even had friends that have
had teachers beg the parents, please medicate your kid. This
(12:33):
is like, too many people think this is normal today
to just take a medication. Your situation was you said
during COVID Yeah, yeah, And I think that was just
a dark period for so many people. And that was
kind of a time when we heard that women in
general were I think three times more likely than a
(12:55):
man to be put on an antidepressant during that time.
So I wonder how many of the people that were
in high school and in college at that age. Those
are hard ages for women in general. I think they're
just you know, we're very nasty to one another. It's
hard times to get through. And I wonder how many
(13:17):
women during that period were put on these And I
have to say that my little experience with it has
been only for the doctor to say there could be
a sexual side effect, and you know, no explanation of
what a sexual side effect is.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, I guess there's been a lot of research
into psc the last well, not a lot of research
at all, but there was a study that was done
by doctor Goldstein and his team, which is still yet
to be published. We have a couple of clips on
our Twitter, some of the one of the doctors, one
of the interventional radiologists who's done kind of high powered
(14:02):
ultrasounds on like pen le tissue of men that have
PSSD and have discovered severe fibrosis in their entire penis
from taking those drugs. Yes, and they have no other
variable that could have possibly caused this. Like these are young,
healthy men under the age of I think it was
either thirty five or under the age of thirty. They
(14:24):
have no past history of you know, any kind of
periphile vascular disease, diabetes, smoking, nothing, they have nothing. They
just all simultaneously reported having severe sexual symptoms. And also,
as we're finding, as more researchers discovering, there's actual damage
that has been done to their physical body, to their
(14:45):
physical structures, which is something that's quite alarming because I
guess no, the thing that irks me is that no
one's being told this. Yes, like That's what I just
can't understand. You know, they might some people that would
still agree to take the medication if they were told
I don't know who would, to be honest with, Maybe
(15:06):
there might be some, but I think it's really wrong
when you have like young people and teenagers like we have.
I just want to say, like in the PSST community,
it is literally hell on earth. Like if you wanted
to describe how you would see what some people go
through on there. They lose everything, Like people lose their family,
(15:29):
they lose their marriage, they lose their jobs, and eventually
a lot of people lose their lives.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And the family around them is also losing. I mean
this is to me. I think this is the destruction
of interpersonal relationships, and I think it has caused so
much more damage than we even know. I mean, I'm
so glad that you've I'm not glad that you've gone
through this. I'm so glad that you are fighting this
and you've created this site for people to go to,
(15:58):
because it's kind of like a suffer and shame kind
of thing because we're not allowed, I think we're not
allowed to ever question mental health help. If you come
out and you say I don't. I don't think these
medications work. It's like, oh, you don't deal with this,
you don't know, you don't get to say this. And
I think that for those of us who have been
(16:18):
on the outside and maybe seeing relatives who have gone
through this and your you know, I can tell you
my experience is to look at someone and go, I
don't I don't even know who you are anymore, because
I think there is that emotional blunting that's there's that
inability to feel like, Oh, they need a hug right now,
I should hug them. There's like there, it's like there's
(16:40):
a like you said, the switch is off. There's something missing.
So when you talk about the sexual side effects, there
are other side effects as well, where you feel like
if you're on the if you're the person who loves
that person, you feel shut out. What is it like
to be the person in that position? What are some
of the stories you've heard of that emotional blunting and
an inability to connect?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well when I hear like, I think a lot of
people from the community try and also let people know
that it's not just the sexual symptoms that maybe would
drive from to a point of suicide. Like it seems
insane to me to even say this, but I actually
have spoken with maybe six people over the course of
the last couple of years in the community. Six people
(17:25):
that I have like messaged online and had multiple conversations
with that I know that have gone on to commit
suicide because of this, Like they're gone now, and like
it's it's insane to me that this problem is still
so downplate, like you're you know, if you've removed, if
you remove like you know, happiness and pleasure and sex
(17:46):
and love and joy and excitement, Like what what is left?
Like what? Like these are not trivial things, like this
is what we are alive for. And I just feel
like human experience exactly. And if it's if it's completely
ruined for someone permanently, well they feel like, you know,
that they've got nothing to live for a lot of
(18:08):
people feel like so betrayed by the wholecare system. That also,
the fact that if this problem is not being taken
seriously sends a message to all these people that your
lives are really not of any value. And I think
that's what kind of drives people over the edge in
the end. And I've seen this happen like to people.
I know a couple of people I was friends with
(18:30):
multiple times, and I do want to say as well,
I know this is like quite haunting, but one of
the guys that I was really good friends with, he
was living in Switzerland at the time, but I have
messages on my phone from him of him messaging me saying,
if I killed myself because of this, sorry, I notice
(18:51):
is like really graphic, but no ill if I need
to hear, Yeah, I think so too. He said, if
I killed myself because of this, people are going to
say he had mental health issues, he was depressed, blah
blah blah. I couldn't even kill myself because of this.
And he has now committed suicide because of this. And
I have all these messages from him, like I could.
(19:12):
I wouldn't show everyone, but I could if I needed to.
And you know, when I went on his like Instagram
page and I saw his family and friends posting stuff
like one of his friends said, oh, you know, he
always struggled with his mental health. And I just want
to say, I really feel like a lot of these
long term side effects from the drugs are being misattributed
as mental health conditions when a lot of it might
(19:34):
actually be long term harm that's come from the drug.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Hey stick around. We have more coming up with Rosy Tilly.
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stick around. We've got more these doctors that have come
out and spoken against this. They've said, look, we have
the highest number of antidepressants that we've ever prescribed. We
are the most medicated society that we have ever been,
and we still have one of the highest suicide rates.
(21:03):
Why would that be if these are antidepressants.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, I think the word antidepressant is also you know,
like it's a really deceiving marketing tool to call this
particular drug an antidepressant. I'm pretty sure the sexual like
actually erasing someone's sexuality or causing anti libedianal effects is
the most what's the word I'm looking for, like common.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Depressant, I mean it's a depressant.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's like basically, yeah, the anti libedial
effects are the most common reaction to these medications. So
I think if these weren't called antidepressants and they were
called libido blocking drugs, I don't think people would have
the same kind of response to them.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You No, definitely not if that were because who are
I mean? That to me is so this is the crisis.
And I talk about this because I really do believe
that to have that human experience and to be able
to have a partner that is a true partner. Your
(22:11):
partner needs that and you need that. That is a
part of a healthy relationship is to be able to
have sex. And it is to me a absolute crisis
that nobody wants because it's taboo. Right, we don't talk
about sex. I mean, we don't talk about the fact
that we think it's important in marriages. Too often it
(22:31):
becomes goes by the wayside and you see the marriage
break up, and we don't talk about that either. It's like,
this is a subject that is hard to talk about.
It is hard to talk about the fact that people
want to have sex, they should be able to have sex.
And you question, so you've brought up so many good
points because here where you're telling me, you know, you
get to this point where you're completely a sexual and
(22:54):
that is absolutely heartbreaking. And you were twenty you knew
the difference between having a desire for sex and now
what you are dealing with today, these horrible side effects.
What about these young kids who are now getting to
their teenage years where their friends are all hyper sexual.
(23:15):
You know, you're in there. You got your hormones going,
You're interested in boys and girls and they don't feel anything.
I mean, this could really be causing a massive collision
in culture, in life, in the human experience.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I'm fully of the assumption that I really do
believe that a lot of people that report being asexual
or having sexuality that differs from the norm might actually
just be suffering from a long term side effect from
a drug and have no idea about it because they're
not being told like if you. There's so many people
(23:50):
that have reached out to us personally saying, oh my god,
I have struggled with this for the most part of
my life and I never realized that it came from
the drug. And there's just a year's worth of suffering,
and I've only just pieced together that I never actually
regained my sexuality after taking that SSRI. I thought that
(24:11):
it kind of just went away on its own during
you know, some random stage of puberty. So it is
it is really insane to me that this isn't being
further investigated. And I see so many posts on Twitter
of you know, millennials and gen z having less sex
than ever, but they're not realizing that, like the downfall
(24:32):
in sexual behavior with millennials and gen Z basically mirrors
the explosion of SSRI prescriptions. So like these drugs are
literally used for chemical carscetration. In some jurisdictions they give
them two pedophiles to block their libido. There are articles
everywhere about this like this is it's just that the
(24:54):
public don't know actually know about it. And we give
these drugs to children and in the same breath, like
you know, these are all of these effects that I've
just talked about. Partly the reason why pubity block is
a banned in the UK, the exact same justification, and
and you know, we just give it out with like
it's nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, it seems so. I mean, now there's I
feel like there's actually been serious research on that because
there's been so much drama about it. That's why I
want to talk about this because I think that the
more you talk about it, the more you kind of
force those pharmaceutical companies and what you were saying about
them testing them for twelve weeks. They're testing while you're
on the drug. Okay, this is what's happening in these
(25:34):
twelve weeks. They're not following up afterward to say, wow,
those side effects that they had during the twelve weeks,
they stayed, these stayed, these went away. There's no there
doesn't seem to be any research on that. To me,
that's devastating. I look at life as the experience of life.
I have that from the standpoint of being a mom,
(25:56):
being married, having kids, all of these things. And I
think in life we have some really critical needs. Obviously,
we have to have food, we have to have water.
But I think that you absolutely have to have affection.
You have to have hugs. You know, as kids, you
have to know that your mom and dad love you.
There has to be affection there. And in a marriage.
(26:19):
I know, I just keep beating this drum, but I
cannot accept the fact that you can as a pharmaceutical company.
I think this is as big as the opioid crisis.
To say that you have castrated people and you have
taken away their ability to feel their sexual partner, to
feel that amazing connection between you and another person. That
(26:40):
is criminal.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
But it's the thing that it is criminal because there
was no warning, Like telling someone that you're going to
have a temporary effect is very different to having this
for the rest of your life. You know, when women
going to have a baby, you might have a spinal
block if you have like a say section baby, and
they'll put an anesthetic into your spine and you'll be
(27:03):
numb and you won't be able to walk for four hours.
And you just be like, oh, that's fine, you know
I need this. But if they turned around and said, oh,
by the way, you won't be able to walk ever again.
It's very different to having like a temporary effect, like
once it transitions into a permanent change, it's completely life changing.
Like this has been completely life changing for me. And
(27:27):
you know there's people just not even being told. I mean,
there's no warnings for this. The FDA have not released
any warnings despite being asked. I remember we found a document,
a random document in twenty eleven of Eli Lilly reaching
out to the FDA telling them that they need to
update their warning leaflets, like for the FDA warning leaflets
(27:49):
for prozac, which is really a weird timing. Like myself
and the others we've kind of said why twenty eleven,
Like the drugs were released almost twenty years prior to that.
It's almost like they've known this and it's kept it
under wraps, and they're just like, hey, can you actually
have the warning, like, but they're not letting the public
know any of this information, which is really wrong. We found,
(28:10):
you know, there was testicular toxicity in rats when they
first on juvenile rats, when they first tested this in Europe,
which was there was a lot of ambivalence of whether
or not they actually wanted to accept SSRIs, you know,
as part of the EMA, the European Medicines Agency. They
weren't sure, if you know, using SSRIs for children was ethical.
(28:34):
Like we have found internal emails and stuff like this.
It's insane because now like there's I'm pretty sure twenty
percent of the female adult population is on these drugs.
I don't know what percentages of children. But I think
if people knew that the side effects I hate calling
them side effects because that kind of almost makes people
think that it's going to go away. But the permanent effects, yeah,
(28:55):
the adverse effects of these drugs could be permanent. I
don't think people would touch them or I think people
would be a lot more cautious.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, I don't even think that a lot of doctors
believe that that's the case. I've heard people who have
gone to their doctor and said, I have these side effects,
and they say, oh, that's no, that's not that's not
from the drug, that's not what the well, that's the
only change in my life. This is what I have,
these medications I'm taking, and this is happening on this medication.
(29:22):
And they have been adamant, No, it's no, you've got
to stay on and even your experience. No, you've got
to increase it. If you increase it, that'll be better.
I mean they almost treated you like you were nuts
for seeing this was a problem.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah. Yeah. At one point, I was having so many
issues at home to the point that I couldn't even
live with my own family because I was just so
angry that this happened to me, and no one actually
knew what I was going through. Like everyone was just saying, like,
you're you need to get over this kind of because
they didn't know that I love my family, like I
(29:56):
just put that out there, but like they just literally
did not know that. It wasn't me that was insane.
It was these companies were basically gaslighting me and saying, oh, no,
our product doesn't do that, you know, So they made
me feel like I was all alone for the longest time. Anyway,
I ended up having to go to this like youth
(30:16):
mental health. It was like a youth mental health clinic organization.
I don't even know what you call it. We had
like a family intervention in twenty twenty one after this happened,
after like I had come off the job because it
was so bad. The side effects went going away, and
I remember rationally presenting to him all this information, and
the psychiatrist like it's almost laughable to look back at now,
(30:39):
but literally sectioned me so that I was delusional and
basically put me involuntarily into mental health care. And on
all of my documents he wrote that I have firm
one of the quotes, it was one of my favorite ones.
He said that I have firm, fixed delusional beliefs that
the medication causes side effects, causing side effects. That's something
(31:02):
like it just it's such an oxymoron because it's like
writing she has a firm, fixed delusional belief that the
pope is Catholic, Like the drugs do cause the side effects.
It's still a delusion, and who are these people to
like to even say that, Like, it just became more
and more obvious and more time I spent around this.
(31:23):
Luckily I didn't have to take anything in the end,
and I actually managed to rationalize with a different doctor
and explain to her, this might sound insane, but this
is what I've been going through. It was partly because
I asked. At the time, I inquired about the possibility
of taking what I was told would be a different
drug called be Appropriate that it supposedly reverses PSSC. I
(31:43):
never ended up taking it or anything, but I remember
asking the psychiatrist about it and she had no idea.
But I think they just thought I was insane because
they were like, where is she getting this information from.
In the end, I managed I didn't have to take anything,
and I said, you know, can I go home? And
they said, yeah, that's okay. But like, what they did
(32:03):
was just so wrong, and you could just tell that
the people that had no idea what they were doing,
Like just it completely undermines my confidence in the system
because I'm just like, if you're the experts and you
don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
What there's a radical defense of these pharmaceutical companies. That's
the creasy. There's a radical defense of them. Yeah, so
you you said that there was a drug that they
said could reverse have you heard of anybody trained to
work on something that could reverse these symptoms.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Unfortunately, we have no idea. I think this is another
point I want to make, is like we actually have
no idea what is causing this, Like we don't even
know why this change would even occur. I mean, with
other kind of risks that people need to be more
warned about in medicine, at least we kind of know
(32:54):
why they're happening and we could even find a way
to avoid them more minimize the risk I certain things occurring.
But with Peers's Day, like you, genuinely we have absolutely
no idea why this is occurring. And it's I want
to make a point as well. It's not just antidepressants
that are doing this. There's another drug, like a hair
loss drug called finasteride or propecia that is causing virtually
(33:16):
an identical syndrome in everyone. Not everyone, but in the
people that are developing it. All of the long term
adverse effects, like the clinical syndrome looks exactly the same
as people.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
As I say, as I got into this, I started
to see that too that propicia was having the same effect,
and I and people were pointing this out to me.
Once we started talking about this on the podcast, they
started getting messages saying, Propi, I don't have the SSRI problem.
This happened to me because I had hair loss. If
I had had a doctor tell me you can have
(33:51):
hair loss or you could never have sex again. What
do you think I'd choose?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, And even then, it's it's almost like there's you
know those there's a there's a company that I can't
stand called Hymns and Hers that aggressively markets SSRI's and
these kind of hair loss pills to young people using
like you know, there's that. I have my friends in
(34:15):
the US have these ads pop up on the Instagram and.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, they see them all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, that's insane to me because you know, we're not
in Australia not allowed to advertise these drugs, but they
advertise so much better. I know. It's it's we just
advertise the disease instead. So I just I just find like, yeah,
these all of these like aggressive marketing tools from these
(34:42):
companies to try and get as many people onto these
medications as possible without actually knowing that the effects can
be permanent, let alone having to list it on their
website at the very least is just I think it's criminal.
I think it should this this, this needs to be
a criminalized like offense. It's so bad.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's so funny. We're so used to them, and I
think that as adults, we've become so used to them
because we hear the commercials constantly. And a few weeks ago,
one of my twelve year olds was sitting in the
kitchen and one of those commercials played and she looked
at me and she goes, why would you ever take that?
And I said, and I was like, I mean, I've
become desensitized to it. I said, what do you mean?
And she was like, did you hear all of the
(35:21):
horrible things? It could prevent you from having nosebleeds, but
you're going to have all these other horrible things. And
I was like, I guess it's so obvious when you're
a little kid and you hear it. We are, so
I think what you said struck me. We walked in.
He had all the credentials, so he should have been
the expert. You felt comfortable, and I think too often
(35:42):
we feel comfortable with doctors because of that. So you
have the PSSD network, that's the post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction Network.
Tell us a little bit about that, because I think
there's got to be people out there that are looking
for other people.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah. Sorry. We just decided to create like a little
almost like an hub, like a network of every piece
of academic literature that we could find on the subject
and you know, try and connect with clinicians and researchers
and try and basically, this is another thing I want
(36:19):
to mention. We are not supported in any capacity by
any external you know, when there's certain diseases, they receive
a lot of funding and grant funding and support and
things like that. It's been really hard for us. They're like,
we're all self funding this research. Like people are putting
money into you know, like a small pool of money
(36:40):
to try and get researchers to actually look into this
because it costs an eye watering amount of money to
have to you know, fund these studies. The pharmaceutical companies
have like they just spend money on things like this
like it's going out of fashion. But for us, like
it just feels really wrong. You know, you've got people
that can't even work that are giving like one hundred
dollars a month that there's like a lot of money
(37:01):
to those people, where like it would literally be not
even a drop in the ocean to these companies. It
should be the ones paying for it, essentially. But I
think that what we've tried to do is, yeah, work
together to create a network so that we can get
research into the condition, and like, more so, we just
want to get it officially recognized. I mean, it's just
been so gas lit for so long, and it's just
(37:24):
been too easy for these doctors to say that's not
possible without actually having to do any further investigation, Like
they've just been given some sort of authority to say, no,
that's not true. Well, there's obviously a huge bias there
because a lot of these doctors are paid by the
pharmaceutical companies. They have every intention to promote the drug
(37:46):
and downplay our stories, yet they're the ones given authority
to do so. Like there's this woman, her name is
Anita Clayton, for example, and you know she's taken so
much money from these pharmaceutical companies. She's a psychiatry, she's
a psychiatrist, but she has made so many comments about
how this isn't possible and all of this stuff when
(38:09):
she's simultaneously getting paid by the pharmaceutical company to promote
her drug. And she I remember once she even said
it's not possible for this drug to cause PSST and
in the same breath said, oh, our drug actually could
be really helpful for these conditions. So it's like her
lies aren't even making sense because there's just holes in
(38:32):
her story everywhere. But yeah, like there's so many people
like that that you know they hold but that's what's
so wrong, is like they hold the position of authority
and you know, they make these massive decisions that because
they have all these letters ex to their name and
their accolades, we get ignored when we're the ones tell
(38:52):
them the truth. But yeah, so I guess our work
has just kind of been to just raise awareness and
get peop people noticing this issue because it's and that's
another thing, like it's so hard to raise awareness for this.
I mean, coming on camera and like speaking about this
issue is not easy because in the back of your head,
you're always like, are my colleagues going to say this?
(39:12):
Like I really don't want anyone from my work to
know about this, Like I kind of I'm a very
quiet person usually, and there's so many people that feel
like they just can't raise awareness, so we're just trying to.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Rest And it's a subject that has historically been so
taboo to talk about sex and sexual desire, and it's
like you shouldn't talk about that, you know, you shouldn't
ever acknowledge that, and yet you have doctors who are
unwilling to acknowledge it. This is the problem that we have.
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I've talked to several experts now
(39:49):
in the field, and I would argue, is there really
a benefit to these medications? Are they? I mean, we
you know, I've had some doctors who have been like well,
and certain situations when it's for a short period, I
can see how it could be helpful if someone's going
through something really hard. But then ultimately, if they happen
to be the you know, get the bad lottery where
(40:12):
they have these terrible side effects, was it worth it
to go through six week hardship and take these meds
and then find out that you've got a lifelong hardship.
It's just a new hardship and a different type of hardship,
and one that is much longer lasting. This is to me,
I just think it's criminal. I just think it's it's criminal,
and that we've had this like mafia of pharmaceutical pharmaceutical
(40:36):
companies that have had the government covering for them. And
that's why may I talk about this because I just
can't believe the government hasn't had to come out and
say we want answers, we want answers as to how
these people's lives could be like this. So what is
the future for you? Do you see? Do you see
(40:57):
having relationships and children? And what do you do you
see free yourself?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Honestly, like, I think this has even the hardest part
is like I wake up every day and I just
feel like since the day I got this, every day
I'm like, I don't know what to do. I just
genuinely don't know what to do. I don't know what
is going to happen in the future. I try not
to think about it. I just try and live each
day and just focus on what I can control in
(41:22):
the immediate term. But like long term, I know this
has changed my life forever. I don't know where I'll
be in five years. I don't know where I'll be
in ten years. I try not to think about it
because it's just like I used to have like kind
of like a plan of what I would want for
my life, and now that's been completely changed, not just
because of my sexuality, but like the emotional blunting, Like
I just feel completely different. I'm just a different person now.
(41:44):
So I just try. I guess we just try and
raise as much awareness and we just really want research
to investigate this problem. I mean, I think one of
the hardest things is like this is something that might
be fixable, but no one's aiding any resources to actually
help us, because people are too busy trying to suppress
the problem and say that's not my fault, we didn't
(42:06):
cause that, we're not you know, they would rather defend
themselves rather than just look at us from like a
human standpoint and be like, Okay, this is a problem.
They need help. We just really need like yeah, sorry,
that's why.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
No, that's why we're doing this as hopefully someone sees
this and they say this is enough, is enough. We
don't want our loved ones to go through this, and
we don't want to go through this. I mean, this is,
like I said, I can think of nothing more cruel
that you would know. But it's not impossible because I mean,
we had the guy on here that he wrote the
(42:42):
book about Johnson and Johnson. I'm looking at Sarah because
she's got all of these. You know, she scheduled all
of these, and she knows who these people are, and
he exposed all these I mean, they knew for years
that they were hurting women with the devices they were
putting into them, with the medications, and yet we're suppressing that.
So you're not crazy. I mean, this does happen, and
(43:04):
that's why we want to get this out there, so
that people can hear this and there can be an
uprising against this and say, like, we can't let this
happen to our young people in this country and in
this world. I mean, you talk about six people you
know that have committed suicide. This suicide rate keeps climbing,
especially for women, and it is climbing in the category
(43:27):
of people who are on these medications. And that should
be enough. That should be enough. Just the idea that
people have said, I can't do it anymore, I can't
live like this anymore. That should be enough that the
government or somebody should be stepping in and doing something
and so I commend you. I commend you for doing
this because I am like, I don't know how you do.
(43:48):
I mean, you're amazing. I am so impressed with you.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Thank you. It's it's honestly being so hard, Like I'm
not just saying that, but it's just so it's such
a hard topic to talk about because at the end
of the day, this is I can't think of a
more deeply personal topic. So this is just not something
that or even not just personal, but something that could
(44:16):
be made fun of or you could be left feeling humiliated.
This has just been like so difficult. But I also
just feel like if we don't say anything, no one's
got to know about it. And I also feel like
sometimes it's it doesn't it's you know, we've had amazing
(44:38):
advocates speak up about this, like Joseph, We're doing and
you know a lot of others. But sometimes I feel
like it really it does have to come from the
person that's experiencing at firsthand to actually tell people what
this is like, because honestly, I remember hearing a PFS sufferer,
(44:58):
a person us steroid syndrome stuff explain this is a
complete biological paradigm shift, and that's how I feel. It's
just like I've just gone through this tunnel and come
out the other side, and right now I'm just like
living this weird existence.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But today we look back at the years of lobotomies
and we go how that have ever happened? And yet
this feels like a chemical lobotomy.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It absolutely does. Like even when I listen to music,
it doesn't sound the same. I still have ringing in
my ears, I still have, you know, visual Snow there's
a lot of other things that I have on top
of the sexual side effects and emotional blunting things. But yeah,
it's I just want people to be aware that these
(45:44):
drugs have not been studied in the long term and
we actually don't like Johannamon Creef talks about this a lot,
but this is basically a massive experiment. We don't know
what the effects that these drugs are over the long
term on you know, children or even adults. And yeah,
it's it's it's I don't even know what to say,
(46:06):
to be honest, It's just been so difficult because people
tell you that it's not real, when I'm like, no,
it's I'm definitely experiencing this like I don't have a choice.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
No, I'm so I'm so impressed that you came on
to share it. I mean, honestly, I just think you're
so brave and keep going, keep doing this. There's anything
that I know my audience would feel the same way,
if there's anything that we can tell you. It is
like God has a plan for you. You are clearly
doing You are a voice that most people couldn't be.
And I know, like I feel all those feelings for you,
(46:38):
you know, that concern of should I feel embarrassed, should
I feel like I can't discuss this, but I'm like,
you are so brave, Like what an amazing woman you
are that you can go out and do this.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, I think it just came from a real oh
my god, I'm sorry, but yeah, it just came from
a real point of like there was literally nothing else
that we possibly could do than to just start telling
everyone what they've done to us, essentially until so much
is time that someone actually does something to try and
help us, because if we don't do this, nothing's going
(47:13):
to change and the'll just be yeah, we'll never kind
of get out of that little hole that Loure in
so thank you so much though, that's so pinn to you.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
No, thank you, thank you for coming on today, Rosie Telly,
thank you. I appreciate you. I think you're amazing. Keep going.
Thank you for coming on, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So much for having me.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Thank you absolutely, and as I always, thank you all
for listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. You can get
this podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts, and you can watch it on
YouTube or rumble at Tutor Dixon and join us next time.
Have a blessed day.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today, we are going
to be talking about a really hard subject. I know
we've had some conversations about SSRIs and I think, you know,
we've gotten a massive amount of feedback on that. I
think that some people feel like they don't want to
hear this story about medications, and then there's other groups
(00:21):
that are wanting to say, my goodness, this happened to me.
It's really hard to talk about, and I'm so glad
I'm hearing it about someone else, so I know I'm
not alone in this fight. And I've had a lot
of people reach out to me and kind of say
I've experienced this. I've experienced this, and for me as
a mom, I want to continue talking about this subject
(00:44):
because I think so many people have made the decision
to either be on these medications or put their children
on these medications and not understanding the real outcome that
it can have the side effects that we can be
dealing with. And I've actually had other parents to reach
out to me and say, I listen to what you
said and what your guests were saying, and I've decided
(01:06):
to either come off of these medications myself or take
my children off of these medications. Our guest today approached
me and we kind of I think I told a
story about her because I had heard her story through
another doctor, and so graciously she agreed to come on.
(01:26):
I'm so glad today because we have Rosie Tilly with us.
She is not only someone who has suffered some of
these side effects, but she also formed her own network
of PSSD survivors, I guess I would say, and sufferers.
So thank you so much for coming on today to
talk about this.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I really appreciate it, absolutely absolutely, So tell us a
little bit about your experience, because if I remember correctly,
it was doctor Joseph who was talking about your story
and saying, you know, there was you were a young woman.
You're obviously still a young woman when this happened, and
(02:07):
it was kind of stunning to you, and there was
sort of this uprising around you, people that were like,
this isn't happening.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, yeah, I will try and keep my story as
brief as I can, But basically, in twenty twenty, when
all the COVID lockdowns and everything were happening, I went
through a really bad period just mentally. I went through
what I would kind of describe as like a depression
and anxiety, just a really really rough period mentally, and
(02:36):
I did what everyone is encouraged to do, which is
reach out or see your doctor all of that, and
I ended up getting put on lexapro. I was sent
to a psychiatrist and then he prescribed me lexapro. I
took the drug for four and a half months. Horrible
side effects on the drug, and to this day I
(02:58):
have had permanence, actual dysfunction, emotional blunting, just complete changes
to like my perception sensory experiences I've had. Thankfully, my
cognitive issues have improved a little bit over the years,
but for the last five years, I have, yeah, effectively
(03:23):
been chemically corustrated by this drug, which was something that
I was told would happen while you're on the drug,
but don't worry because once you stop taking it, everything
will go away, everything will go back to normal. But
that's not true. I stopped taking the drug on this
I remember the last pill I took was like half
tiny tablet on December seventh of twenty twenty, and it's
(03:47):
now we're in October of twenty twenty five and I
almost feel as if I've taken the drug this morning,
that's how strongly I'm still affected by these adverse effects.
It something I was never warned about. I would never
have taken it if I knew that it would persist
for half a decade, if not more, or even you know,
if people say it takes that long to come back. Yeah,
(04:08):
I would never have gone down this about But yeah,
here I am.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So when you say they said it would happen only
while you were on the medication, did you think when
they said that they actually said you'll feel nothing, you'll
have these terrible sexual side effects, or was it like
you might have this, you might have this. Did they
explain what that could be or did they just say
sexual side effects?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I had to kind of it was quite strangely, when
I was first put on the medication, I was I
was given a very brief, one sentence warning about it.
So I guess it kind of like, you know, relieved
any anxiety I had about taking the medication. But it
was only after maybe a month of being on it
and I came back to the psychiatrist and I literally
(04:55):
said to him, these side effects are out of control,
Like I can't like this is not help me, essentially,
and that's when he was like, oh no, you know
all of these these effects is usually. He tried to
convince me that if I stay on the medication long enough,
my body will adjust to the medication and the side
effects will go away. And he even up to the
(05:18):
dose and I just was completely you know, I was
sitting there in his office. He had all his like
academic accolades on his walls. I was just like, this
guy is the guru, Like he obviously knows what he's doing.
But I later found out he clearly didn't, because I'm
here with all these art effects years later. But I
was I was never really told how severe this could be.
(05:42):
It's not just like a normal it's not like a
normal sexual dysfunction. It's like a complete chemical castration. And
I was never warned in any capacity that that's what
this would be. And you say it persist.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
When you say chemical castration, what is that? YEA, what
does that mean to us? Does that mean that you
just it's almost a said that you have no desire
at all, you cannot have a relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's so much more than that. It's my body physiologically
is no longer able to be sexually aroused in any form. Literally,
the way I describe it is like if you consider
your own libido and sexual arousal like a light switch
going on. It's almost like someone's pulled the plug out
(06:30):
of the wall and you turn the switch on at
the wall and nothing happens to the light. So that's
essentially what's happened to my body. It's like my entire
nervous system has been I don't know, like someone stuck
a fork in a PowerPoint and it's just completely broken.
I'm unable to feel anything like what I used to
be able to feel prior to taking this medication. And obviously,
(06:52):
like this is how ongoing affects to me, like mentally, physically, personally. Yeah,
it's so much more severe than not having a libido.
But I know for some people with PSSD, they might
their most severe symptom is they might have a missing libido.
But it's not just like, oh, I don't feel like
(07:12):
having sex right now, it's I am unable to feel
like even if I try, and if I don't feel
like this and I'm trying to feel something, I literally
am unable to feel anything. So it's a lot more
severe than just a lowered libido. I would almost argue
that it would be no libido whatsoever. You essentially become
completely asexual.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I don't want to insult you, but it almost sounds
like brain damage, Like it's like your brain doesn't function
in that area.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah. Well, I've thought long and hard about what this
could be. I'm like, is this some form of brain damage?
Is there something that, like my neurons in my spine
no longer connect to my brain, Like what is going on?
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
They don't know.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Essentially, I can't even I can't fathom that you have
a drug like this that goes to so many people,
and I would argue that SSRIs are probably some of
the most prescribed medications out there that it could chemically
castrate a person, and a young person, I mean any
age person that it could chemically castrate you, and they
(08:23):
have no responsibility to even look into how it's happening
or have an explanation.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I think that's one of my biggest learnings from this
entire experience is realizing that the studies for these drugs
only ran for a maximum of up to twelve weeks
most of them, and once the study is finished, these
companies are not required by law at all to evaluate
(08:51):
what side effects did you experience during having the medication
during the treatment, and they're not required to follow you
up six months later to months later. Hey, Rosie, I
saw during this clinical trial that you experience sexual dysfunction.
It's been six months since you've stopped it, do you
still have these effects? And I feel like, because there's
all these little loopholes where they don't have to do this,
(09:13):
they're not going to do it. So when you actually
look at the research, the sexual side effects of SSRIs
have not been studied in any capacity in the long term.
The only people that have studied this. It seems kind
of bizarre, right, because you've got so many people that
take these drugs for so long, we put children on them.
You know, I was twenty when this happened to me.
(09:34):
I was an adult. I essentially consented to this. It
was uninformed consent, but I consented. Like there are a
lot of people putting their kids on these medications as
young as I've seen as young as eight years old
in the US. I'm not sure about it Australia, but
they genuinely don't realize that we have no idea if
these drugs are well, they are obviously affecting people long
(09:59):
term sexually, Like yeah, exactly, but we just there's never
I remember Audrey that is a she's a long time
sufferer of PSC. I think she got this in the
nineties and she's yeah, she's now in the latest stage
of her life and it's just affected her for years.
But she said this quote and it was something to
(10:19):
the effective. You know, no study has ever followed the
course of ssri I induced sexual dysfunction after a patient
has stopped taking the medication to evaluate when and to
what degree the side effects actually resolve. So we know
that people get the side effects whilst taking the drug,
(10:41):
and the pharmaceutical companies list that, but they do not
tell you how long it could last for a how
severe it could be. I mean, this is in the
this is in the DSM, Like this isn't the Diagnostic
and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It says that ssri
I induced sexual dysfunction may persist after stopping in the agent.
They just don't tell you.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
That's insane. That's so insane to think that you could
put your own child, you could castrate your own child
and not know. And I don't you know when when
my daughter went into we took her to a therapist
and they immediately, well i would say within a month,
said that she has to be on one of these medications.
And I said, absolutely not, no way, there's no way.
(11:24):
And the pediatrician was like, oh, You've got to see
a psychiatrist. There's really no reason not to. And there
was no way. I was not going to put my
kid on a medication because she was anxious about washing
her hands at school. I'm like, but that was it.
I mean, that's to me, that's the crazy part about it.
This was a temporary phase that she had to get through.
(11:49):
But we put these we just immediately say we're going
to medicate. We're going to medicate, We're going to medicate
on so many things and that. And now, you know,
as I've grown as a parent, as I've got and
older as a parent, and I've seen my four kids
go through these different phases, I've seen that there are
there are hills and valleys like anything else, and there
(12:10):
are phases that we grow out of, and there are
phases that last longer than others. And I've seen this
with you know, I have girls, but I've seen this
with families that have boys. You know, boys are very rambunctious.
They're different than my girls. I can tell you They're
different and they don't pay attention to class, and it's
like we've got to I've even had friends that have
had teachers beg the parents, please medicate your kid. This
(12:33):
is like, too many people think this is normal today
to just take a medication. Your situation was you said
during COVID Yeah, yeah, And I think that was just
a dark period for so many people. And that was
kind of a time when we heard that women in
general were I think three times more likely than a
(12:55):
man to be put on an antidepressant during that time.
So I wonder how many of the people that were
in high school and in college at that age. Those
are hard ages for women in general. I think they're
just you know, we're very nasty to one another. It's
hard times to get through. And I wonder how many
(13:17):
women during that period were put on these And I
have to say that my little experience with it has
been only for the doctor to say there could be
a sexual side effect, and you know, no explanation of
what a sexual side effect is.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, I guess there's been a lot of research
into psc the last well, not a lot of research
at all, but there was a study that was done
by doctor Goldstein and his team, which is still yet
to be published. We have a couple of clips on
our Twitter, some of the one of the doctors, one
of the interventional radiologists who's done kind of high powered
(14:02):
ultrasounds on like pen le tissue of men that have
PSSD and have discovered severe fibrosis in their entire penis
from taking those drugs. Yes, and they have no other
variable that could have possibly caused this. Like these are young,
healthy men under the age of I think it was
either thirty five or under the age of thirty. They
(14:24):
have no past history of you know, any kind of
periphile vascular disease, diabetes, smoking, nothing, they have nothing. They
just all simultaneously reported having severe sexual symptoms. And also,
as we're finding, as more researchers discovering, there's actual damage
that has been done to their physical body, to their
(14:45):
physical structures, which is something that's quite alarming because I
guess no, the thing that irks me is that no
one's being told this. Yes, like That's what I just
can't understand. You know, they might some people that would
still agree to take the medication if they were told
I don't know who would, to be honest with, Maybe
(15:06):
there might be some, but I think it's really wrong
when you have like young people and teenagers like we have.
I just want to say, like in the PSST community,
it is literally hell on earth. Like if you wanted
to describe how you would see what some people go
through on there. They lose everything, Like people lose their family,
(15:29):
they lose their marriage, they lose their jobs, and eventually
a lot of people lose their lives.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And the family around them is also losing. I mean
this is to me. I think this is the destruction
of interpersonal relationships, and I think it has caused so
much more damage than we even know. I mean, I'm
so glad that you've I'm not glad that you've gone
through this. I'm so glad that you are fighting this
and you've created this site for people to go to,
(15:58):
because it's kind of like a suffer and shame kind
of thing because we're not allowed, I think we're not
allowed to ever question mental health help. If you come
out and you say I don't. I don't think these
medications work. It's like, oh, you don't deal with this,
you don't know, you don't get to say this. And
I think that for those of us who have been
(16:18):
on the outside and maybe seeing relatives who have gone
through this and your you know, I can tell you
my experience is to look at someone and go, I
don't I don't even know who you are anymore, because
I think there is that emotional blunting that's there's that
inability to feel like, Oh, they need a hug right now,
I should hug them. There's like there, it's like there's
(16:40):
a like you said, the switch is off. There's something missing.
So when you talk about the sexual side effects, there
are other side effects as well, where you feel like
if you're on the if you're the person who loves
that person, you feel shut out. What is it like
to be the person in that position? What are some
of the stories you've heard of that emotional blunting and
an inability to connect?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Well when I hear like, I think a lot of
people from the community try and also let people know
that it's not just the sexual symptoms that maybe would
drive from to a point of suicide. Like it seems
insane to me to even say this, but I actually
have spoken with maybe six people over the course of
the last couple of years in the community. Six people
(17:25):
that I have like messaged online and had multiple conversations
with that I know that have gone on to commit
suicide because of this, Like they're gone now, and like
it's it's insane to me that this problem is still
so downplate, like you're you know, if you've removed, if
you remove like you know, happiness and pleasure and sex
(17:46):
and love and joy and excitement, Like what what is left?
Like what? Like these are not trivial things, like this
is what we are alive for. And I just feel
like human experience exactly. And if it's if it's completely
ruined for someone permanently, well they feel like, you know,
that they've got nothing to live for a lot of
(18:08):
people feel like so betrayed by the wholecare system. That also,
the fact that if this problem is not being taken
seriously sends a message to all these people that your
lives are really not of any value. And I think
that's what kind of drives people over the edge in
the end. And I've seen this happen like to people.
I know a couple of people I was friends with
(18:30):
multiple times, and I do want to say as well,
I know this is like quite haunting, but one of
the guys that I was really good friends with, he
was living in Switzerland at the time, but I have
messages on my phone from him of him messaging me saying,
if I killed myself because of this, sorry, I notice
(18:51):
is like really graphic, but no ill if I need
to hear, Yeah, I think so too. He said, if
I killed myself because of this, people are going to
say he had mental health issues, he was depressed, blah
blah blah. I couldn't even kill myself because of this.
And he has now committed suicide because of this. And
I have all these messages from him, like I could.
(19:12):
I wouldn't show everyone, but I could if I needed to.
And you know, when I went on his like Instagram
page and I saw his family and friends posting stuff
like one of his friends said, oh, you know, he
always struggled with his mental health. And I just want
to say, I really feel like a lot of these
long term side effects from the drugs are being misattributed
as mental health conditions when a lot of it might
(19:34):
actually be long term harm that's come from the drug.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Hey stick around. We have more coming up with Rosy Tilly.
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stick around. We've got more these doctors that have come
out and spoken against this. They've said, look, we have
the highest number of antidepressants that we've ever prescribed. We
are the most medicated society that we have ever been,
and we still have one of the highest suicide rates.
(21:03):
Why would that be if these are antidepressants.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, I think the word antidepressant is also you know,
like it's a really deceiving marketing tool to call this
particular drug an antidepressant. I'm pretty sure the sexual like
actually erasing someone's sexuality or causing anti libedianal effects is
the most what's the word I'm looking for, like common.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Depressant, I mean it's a depressant.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's like basically, yeah, the anti libedial
effects are the most common reaction to these medications. So
I think if these weren't called antidepressants and they were
called libido blocking drugs, I don't think people would have
the same kind of response to them.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
You No, definitely not if that were because who are
I mean? That to me is so this is the crisis.
And I talk about this because I really do believe
that to have that human experience and to be able
to have a partner that is a true partner. Your
(22:11):
partner needs that and you need that. That is a
part of a healthy relationship is to be able to
have sex. And it is to me a absolute crisis
that nobody wants because it's taboo. Right, we don't talk
about sex. I mean, we don't talk about the fact
that we think it's important in marriages. Too often it
(22:31):
becomes goes by the wayside and you see the marriage
break up, and we don't talk about that either. It's like,
this is a subject that is hard to talk about.
It is hard to talk about the fact that people
want to have sex, they should be able to have sex.
And you question, so you've brought up so many good
points because here where you're telling me, you know, you
get to this point where you're completely a sexual and
(22:54):
that is absolutely heartbreaking. And you were twenty you knew
the difference between having a desire for sex and now
what you are dealing with today, these horrible side effects.
What about these young kids who are now getting to
their teenage years where their friends are all hyper sexual.
(23:15):
You know, you're in there. You got your hormones going,
You're interested in boys and girls and they don't feel anything.
I mean, this could really be causing a massive collision
in culture, in life, in the human experience.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I'm fully of the assumption that I really do
believe that a lot of people that report being asexual
or having sexuality that differs from the norm might actually
just be suffering from a long term side effect from
a drug and have no idea about it because they're
not being told like if you. There's so many people
(23:50):
that have reached out to us personally saying, oh my god,
I have struggled with this for the most part of
my life and I never realized that it came from
the drug. And there's just a year's worth of suffering,
and I've only just pieced together that I never actually
regained my sexuality after taking that SSRI. I thought that
(24:11):
it kind of just went away on its own during
you know, some random stage of puberty. So it is
it is really insane to me that this isn't being
further investigated. And I see so many posts on Twitter
of you know, millennials and gen z having less sex
than ever, but they're not realizing that, like the downfall
(24:32):
in sexual behavior with millennials and gen Z basically mirrors
the explosion of SSRI prescriptions. So like these drugs are
literally used for chemical carscetration. In some jurisdictions they give
them two pedophiles to block their libido. There are articles
everywhere about this like this is it's just that the
(24:54):
public don't know actually know about it. And we give
these drugs to children and in the same breath, like
you know, these are all of these effects that I've
just talked about. Partly the reason why pubity block is
a banned in the UK, the exact same justification, and
and you know, we just give it out with like
it's nothing.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Yeah, yeah, it seems so. I mean, now there's I
feel like there's actually been serious research on that because
there's been so much drama about it. That's why I
want to talk about this because I think that the
more you talk about it, the more you kind of
force those pharmaceutical companies and what you were saying about
them testing them for twelve weeks. They're testing while you're
on the drug. Okay, this is what's happening in these
(25:34):
twelve weeks. They're not following up afterward to say, wow,
those side effects that they had during the twelve weeks,
they stayed, these stayed, these went away. There's no there
doesn't seem to be any research on that. To me,
that's devastating. I look at life as the experience of life.
I have that from the standpoint of being a mom,
(25:56):
being married, having kids, all of these things. And I
think in life we have some really critical needs. Obviously,
we have to have food, we have to have water.
But I think that you absolutely have to have affection.
You have to have hugs. You know, as kids, you
have to know that your mom and dad love you.
There has to be affection there. And in a marriage.
(26:19):
I know, I just keep beating this drum, but I
cannot accept the fact that you can as a pharmaceutical company.
I think this is as big as the opioid crisis.
To say that you have castrated people and you have
taken away their ability to feel their sexual partner, to
feel that amazing connection between you and another person. That
(26:40):
is criminal.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
But it's the thing that it is criminal because there
was no warning, Like telling someone that you're going to
have a temporary effect is very different to having this
for the rest of your life. You know, when women
going to have a baby, you might have a spinal
block if you have like a say section baby, and
they'll put an anesthetic into your spine and you'll be
(27:03):
numb and you won't be able to walk for four hours.
And you just be like, oh, that's fine, you know
I need this. But if they turned around and said, oh,
by the way, you won't be able to walk ever again.
It's very different to having like a temporary effect, like
once it transitions into a permanent change, it's completely life changing.
Like this has been completely life changing for me. And
(27:27):
you know there's people just not even being told. I mean,
there's no warnings for this. The FDA have not released
any warnings despite being asked. I remember we found a document,
a random document in twenty eleven of Eli Lilly reaching
out to the FDA telling them that they need to
update their warning leaflets, like for the FDA warning leaflets
(27:49):
for prozac, which is really a weird timing. Like myself
and the others we've kind of said why twenty eleven,
Like the drugs were released almost twenty years prior to that.
It's almost like they've known this and it's kept it
under wraps, and they're just like, hey, can you actually
have the warning, like, but they're not letting the public
know any of this information, which is really wrong. We found,
(28:10):
you know, there was testicular toxicity in rats when they
first on juvenile rats, when they first tested this in Europe,
which was there was a lot of ambivalence of whether
or not they actually wanted to accept SSRIs, you know,
as part of the EMA, the European Medicines Agency. They
weren't sure, if you know, using SSRIs for children was ethical.
(28:34):
Like we have found internal emails and stuff like this.
It's insane because now like there's I'm pretty sure twenty
percent of the female adult population is on these drugs.
I don't know what percentages of children. But I think
if people knew that the side effects I hate calling
them side effects because that kind of almost makes people
think that it's going to go away. But the permanent effects, yeah,
(28:55):
the adverse effects of these drugs could be permanent. I
don't think people would touch them or I think people
would be a lot more cautious.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yeah, I don't even think that a lot of doctors
believe that that's the case. I've heard people who have
gone to their doctor and said, I have these side effects,
and they say, oh, that's no, that's not that's not
from the drug, that's not what the well, that's the
only change in my life. This is what I have,
these medications I'm taking, and this is happening on this medication.
(29:22):
And they have been adamant, No, it's no, you've got
to stay on and even your experience. No, you've got
to increase it. If you increase it, that'll be better.
I mean they almost treated you like you were nuts
for seeing this was a problem.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Yeah. Yeah. At one point, I was having so many
issues at home to the point that I couldn't even
live with my own family because I was just so
angry that this happened to me, and no one actually
knew what I was going through. Like everyone was just saying, like,
you're you need to get over this kind of because
they didn't know that I love my family, like I
(29:56):
just put that out there, but like they just literally
did not know that. It wasn't me that was insane.
It was these companies were basically gaslighting me and saying, oh, no,
our product doesn't do that, you know, So they made
me feel like I was all alone for the longest time. Anyway,
I ended up having to go to this like youth
(30:16):
mental health. It was like a youth mental health clinic organization.
I don't even know what you call it. We had
like a family intervention in twenty twenty one after this happened,
after like I had come off the job because it
was so bad. The side effects went going away, and
I remember rationally presenting to him all this information, and
the psychiatrist like it's almost laughable to look back at now,
(30:39):
but literally sectioned me so that I was delusional and
basically put me involuntarily into mental health care. And on
all of my documents he wrote that I have firm
one of the quotes, it was one of my favorite ones.
He said that I have firm, fixed delusional beliefs that
the medication causes side effects, causing side effects. That's something
(31:02):
like it just it's such an oxymoron because it's like
writing she has a firm, fixed delusional belief that the
pope is Catholic, Like the drugs do cause the side effects.
It's still a delusion, and who are these people to
like to even say that, Like, it just became more
and more obvious and more time I spent around this.
(31:23):
Luckily I didn't have to take anything in the end,
and I actually managed to rationalize with a different doctor
and explain to her, this might sound insane, but this
is what I've been going through. It was partly because
I asked. At the time, I inquired about the possibility
of taking what I was told would be a different
drug called be Appropriate that it supposedly reverses PSSC. I
(31:43):
never ended up taking it or anything, but I remember
asking the psychiatrist about it and she had no idea.
But I think they just thought I was insane because
they were like, where is she getting this information from.
In the end, I managed I didn't have to take anything,
and I said, you know, can I go home? And
they said, yeah, that's okay. But like, what they did
(32:03):
was just so wrong, and you could just tell that
the people that had no idea what they were doing,
Like just it completely undermines my confidence in the system
because I'm just like, if you're the experts and you
don't know what you're doing.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
What there's a radical defense of these pharmaceutical companies. That's
the creasy. There's a radical defense of them. Yeah, so
you you said that there was a drug that they
said could reverse have you heard of anybody trained to
work on something that could reverse these symptoms.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Unfortunately, we have no idea. I think this is another
point I want to make, is like we actually have
no idea what is causing this, Like we don't even
know why this change would even occur. I mean, with
other kind of risks that people need to be more
warned about in medicine, at least we kind of know
(32:54):
why they're happening and we could even find a way
to avoid them more minimize the risk I certain things occurring.
But with Peers's Day, like you, genuinely we have absolutely
no idea why this is occurring. And it's I want
to make a point as well. It's not just antidepressants
that are doing this. There's another drug, like a hair
loss drug called finasteride or propecia that is causing virtually
(33:16):
an identical syndrome in everyone. Not everyone, but in the
people that are developing it. All of the long term
adverse effects, like the clinical syndrome looks exactly the same
as people.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
As I say, as I got into this, I started
to see that too that propicia was having the same effect,
and I and people were pointing this out to me.
Once we started talking about this on the podcast, they
started getting messages saying, Propi, I don't have the SSRI problem.
This happened to me because I had hair loss. If
I had had a doctor tell me you can have
(33:51):
hair loss or you could never have sex again. What
do you think I'd choose?
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, And even then, it's it's almost like there's you
know those there's a there's a company that I can't
stand called Hymns and Hers that aggressively markets SSRI's and
these kind of hair loss pills to young people using
like you know, there's that. I have my friends in
(34:15):
the US have these ads pop up on the Instagram and.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, they see them all the time.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, that's insane to me because you know, we're not
in Australia not allowed to advertise these drugs, but they
advertise so much better. I know. It's it's we just
advertise the disease instead. So I just I just find like, yeah,
these all of these like aggressive marketing tools from these
(34:42):
companies to try and get as many people onto these
medications as possible without actually knowing that the effects can
be permanent, let alone having to list it on their
website at the very least is just I think it's criminal.
I think it should this this, this needs to be
a criminalized like offense. It's so bad.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
It's so funny. We're so used to them, and I
think that as adults, we've become so used to them
because we hear the commercials constantly. And a few weeks ago,
one of my twelve year olds was sitting in the
kitchen and one of those commercials played and she looked
at me and she goes, why would you ever take that?
And I said, and I was like, I mean, I've
become desensitized to it. I said, what do you mean?
And she was like, did you hear all of the
(35:21):
horrible things? It could prevent you from having nosebleeds, but
you're going to have all these other horrible things. And
I was like, I guess it's so obvious when you're
a little kid and you hear it. We are, so
I think what you said struck me. We walked in.
He had all the credentials, so he should have been
the expert. You felt comfortable, and I think too often
(35:42):
we feel comfortable with doctors because of that. So you
have the PSSD network, that's the post SSRI Sexual Dysfunction Network.
Tell us a little bit about that, because I think
there's got to be people out there that are looking
for other people.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah. Sorry. We just decided to create like a little
almost like an hub, like a network of every piece
of academic literature that we could find on the subject
and you know, try and connect with clinicians and researchers
and try and basically, this is another thing I want
(36:19):
to mention. We are not supported in any capacity by
any external you know, when there's certain diseases, they receive
a lot of funding and grant funding and support and
things like that. It's been really hard for us. They're like,
we're all self funding this research. Like people are putting
money into you know, like a small pool of money
(36:40):
to try and get researchers to actually look into this
because it costs an eye watering amount of money to
have to you know, fund these studies. The pharmaceutical companies
have like they just spend money on things like this
like it's going out of fashion. But for us, like
it just feels really wrong. You know, you've got people
that can't even work that are giving like one hundred
dollars a month that there's like a lot of money
(37:01):
to those people, where like it would literally be not
even a drop in the ocean to these companies. It
should be the ones paying for it, essentially. But I
think that what we've tried to do is, yeah, work
together to create a network so that we can get
research into the condition, and like, more so, we just
want to get it officially recognized. I mean, it's just
been so gas lit for so long, and it's just
(37:24):
been too easy for these doctors to say that's not
possible without actually having to do any further investigation, Like
they've just been given some sort of authority to say, no,
that's not true. Well, there's obviously a huge bias there
because a lot of these doctors are paid by the
pharmaceutical companies. They have every intention to promote the drug
(37:46):
and downplay our stories, yet they're the ones given authority
to do so. Like there's this woman, her name is
Anita Clayton, for example, and you know she's taken so
much money from these pharmaceutical companies. She's a psychiatry, she's
a psychiatrist, but she has made so many comments about
how this isn't possible and all of this stuff when
(38:09):
she's simultaneously getting paid by the pharmaceutical company to promote
her drug. And she I remember once she even said
it's not possible for this drug to cause PSST and
in the same breath said, oh, our drug actually could
be really helpful for these conditions. So it's like her
lies aren't even making sense because there's just holes in
(38:32):
her story everywhere. But yeah, like there's so many people
like that that you know they hold but that's what's
so wrong, is like they hold the position of authority
and you know, they make these massive decisions that because
they have all these letters ex to their name and
their accolades, we get ignored when we're the ones tell
(38:52):
them the truth. But yeah, so I guess our work
has just kind of been to just raise awareness and
get peop people noticing this issue because it's and that's
another thing, like it's so hard to raise awareness for this.
I mean, coming on camera and like speaking about this
issue is not easy because in the back of your head,
you're always like, are my colleagues going to say this?
(39:12):
Like I really don't want anyone from my work to
know about this, Like I kind of I'm a very
quiet person usually, and there's so many people that feel
like they just can't raise awareness, so we're just trying to.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Rest And it's a subject that has historically been so
taboo to talk about sex and sexual desire, and it's
like you shouldn't talk about that, you know, you shouldn't
ever acknowledge that, and yet you have doctors who are
unwilling to acknowledge it. This is the problem that we have.
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I've talked to several experts now
(39:49):
in the field, and I would argue, is there really
a benefit to these medications? Are they? I mean, we
you know, I've had some doctors who have been like well,
and certain situations when it's for a short period, I
can see how it could be helpful if someone's going
through something really hard. But then ultimately, if they happen
to be the you know, get the bad lottery where
(40:12):
they have these terrible side effects, was it worth it
to go through six week hardship and take these meds
and then find out that you've got a lifelong hardship.
It's just a new hardship and a different type of hardship,
and one that is much longer lasting. This is to me,
I just think it's criminal. I just think it's it's criminal,
and that we've had this like mafia of pharmaceutical pharmaceutical
(40:36):
companies that have had the government covering for them. And
that's why may I talk about this because I just
can't believe the government hasn't had to come out and
say we want answers, we want answers as to how
these people's lives could be like this. So what is
the future for you? Do you see? Do you see
(40:57):
having relationships and children? And what do you do you
see free yourself?
Speaker 2 (41:02):
Honestly, like, I think this has even the hardest part
is like I wake up every day and I just
feel like since the day I got this, every day
I'm like, I don't know what to do. I just
genuinely don't know what to do. I don't know what
is going to happen in the future. I try not
to think about it. I just try and live each
day and just focus on what I can control in
(41:22):
the immediate term. But like long term, I know this
has changed my life forever. I don't know where I'll
be in five years. I don't know where I'll be
in ten years. I try not to think about it
because it's just like I used to have like kind
of like a plan of what I would want for
my life, and now that's been completely changed, not just
because of my sexuality, but like the emotional blunting, Like
I just feel completely different. I'm just a different person now.
(41:44):
So I just try. I guess we just try and
raise as much awareness and we just really want research
to investigate this problem. I mean, I think one of
the hardest things is like this is something that might
be fixable, but no one's aiding any resources to actually
help us, because people are too busy trying to suppress
the problem and say that's not my fault, we didn't
(42:06):
cause that, we're not you know, they would rather defend
themselves rather than just look at us from like a
human standpoint and be like, Okay, this is a problem.
They need help. We just really need like yeah, sorry,
that's why.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
No, that's why we're doing this as hopefully someone sees
this and they say this is enough, is enough. We
don't want our loved ones to go through this, and
we don't want to go through this. I mean, this is,
like I said, I can think of nothing more cruel
that you would know. But it's not impossible because I mean,
we had the guy on here that he wrote the
(42:42):
book about Johnson and Johnson. I'm looking at Sarah because
she's got all of these. You know, she scheduled all
of these, and she knows who these people are, and
he exposed all these I mean, they knew for years
that they were hurting women with the devices they were
putting into them, with the medications, and yet we're suppressing that.
So you're not crazy. I mean, this does happen, and
(43:04):
that's why we want to get this out there, so
that people can hear this and there can be an
uprising against this and say, like, we can't let this
happen to our young people in this country and in
this world. I mean, you talk about six people you
know that have committed suicide. This suicide rate keeps climbing,
especially for women, and it is climbing in the category
(43:27):
of people who are on these medications. And that should
be enough. That should be enough. Just the idea that
people have said, I can't do it anymore, I can't
live like this anymore. That should be enough that the
government or somebody should be stepping in and doing something
and so I commend you. I commend you for doing
this because I am like, I don't know how you do.
(43:48):
I mean, you're amazing. I am so impressed with you.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Thank you. It's it's honestly being so hard, Like I'm
not just saying that, but it's just so it's such
a hard topic to talk about because at the end
of the day, this is I can't think of a
more deeply personal topic. So this is just not something
that or even not just personal, but something that could
(44:16):
be made fun of or you could be left feeling humiliated.
This has just been like so difficult. But I also
just feel like if we don't say anything, no one's
got to know about it. And I also feel like
sometimes it's it doesn't it's you know, we've had amazing
(44:38):
advocates speak up about this, like Joseph, We're doing and
you know a lot of others. But sometimes I feel
like it really it does have to come from the
person that's experiencing at firsthand to actually tell people what
this is like, because honestly, I remember hearing a PFS sufferer,
(44:58):
a person us steroid syndrome stuff explain this is a
complete biological paradigm shift, and that's how I feel. It's
just like I've just gone through this tunnel and come
out the other side, and right now I'm just like
living this weird existence.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
But today we look back at the years of lobotomies
and we go how that have ever happened? And yet
this feels like a chemical lobotomy.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
It absolutely does. Like even when I listen to music,
it doesn't sound the same. I still have ringing in
my ears, I still have, you know, visual Snow there's
a lot of other things that I have on top
of the sexual side effects and emotional blunting things. But yeah,
it's I just want people to be aware that these
(45:44):
drugs have not been studied in the long term and
we actually don't like Johannamon Creef talks about this a lot,
but this is basically a massive experiment. We don't know
what the effects that these drugs are over the long
term on you know, children or even adults. And yeah,
it's it's it's I don't even know what to say,
(46:06):
to be honest, It's just been so difficult because people
tell you that it's not real, when I'm like, no,
it's I'm definitely experiencing this like I don't have a choice.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
No, I'm so I'm so impressed that you came on
to share it. I mean, honestly, I just think you're
so brave and keep going, keep doing this. There's anything
that I know my audience would feel the same way,
if there's anything that we can tell you. It is
like God has a plan for you. You are clearly
doing You are a voice that most people couldn't be.
And I know, like I feel all those feelings for you,
(46:38):
you know, that concern of should I feel embarrassed, should
I feel like I can't discuss this, but I'm like,
you are so brave, Like what an amazing woman you
are that you can go out and do this.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, I think it just came from a real oh
my god, I'm sorry, but yeah, it just came from
a real point of like there was literally nothing else
that we possibly could do than to just start telling
everyone what they've done to us, essentially until so much
is time that someone actually does something to try and
help us, because if we don't do this, nothing's going
(47:13):
to change and the'll just be yeah, we'll never kind
of get out of that little hole that Loure in
so thank you so much though, that's so pinn to you.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
No, thank you, thank you for coming on today, Rosie Telly,
thank you. I appreciate you. I think you're amazing. Keep going.
Thank you for coming on, Thanks.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
So much for having me.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Thank you absolutely, and as I always, thank you all
for listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. You can get
this podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts, and you can watch it on
YouTube or rumble at Tutor Dixon and join us next time.
Have a blessed day.
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Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
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