September 10, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode, Tudor speaks with Henry Payne, an auto columnist & podcaster, about the current state of electric vehicles (EVs) and the broader auto industry. They discuss the impact of government policies on the EV market, the influence of China, and the challenges faced by American manufacturers. The conversation highlights the disconnect between government mandates and consumer preferences, as well as the implications for the future of manufacturing in the U.S. The Tudor Dixon Podcast is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network. For more visit TudorDixonPodcast.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today we have Henry
Payne with us. He is the Detroit News auto columnist
and the host of the weekly car radio program for
nine ten am Detroit, and I wanted to talk today
about electric vehicles. It seems like we're seeing the death
of the electric vehicle right now. But Henry is the expert,
so I welcome him here today to tell us all
(00:23):
about what's going on with the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, hey, Tutor, great to be with you. A lot
of lots going on in this industry.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
There's so much because right now.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So we obviously in Michigan were extra sensitive to this,
but I think everybody across the nation, so many states
have started auto manufacturing that we're kind of all sort
of waiting into anticipation of what's about to happen. But
we're seeing that GM is pausing production and in some
cases they are canceling production on their evs. So I'm
wondering if you think this is a kind of proactive
(00:55):
response to them anticipating these tax credits running out at
the end of the month.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah. I mean, it's really been an extraordinary period these
last few years, and it shows the flaw with socialism,
with government run market economics. I mean, we've really been
in a period driven by government mandates, by government incentives,
going back through the Biden administration, and it really, I mean,
(01:25):
it shows you how far that party has moved left.
They really see communists China as the economic model, and
they have been trying to follow that for the last
four years, trying to force an electric vehicle market like
China has done, and trying to subsidize that. Billions and
(01:50):
billions of dollars going into battery plants, huge mandates from
the EPA from California forcing me manufacturers to eliminate their
fossil fuel burning cars. So all of this has been
government driven for the last four years. And then you
(02:11):
could bring in a new administration which is a free market,
more free market oriented administration, all those incentives go away,
and it just shows you how unreliable government is as
an economic driver. You really want consumer markets driving these things,
and that's what we've seen. Just in the last year.
(02:33):
The bottom has fallen out.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Of v There was a lie almost where they told us,
you know, if we subsidize this long enough, this is
going to catch on. The infrastructure will be there. There
was never enough infrastructure there. And I mean look at
the state of Michigan. You had the governor who was
putting even Michigan tax dollars into creating this industry. And
the idea was, Okay, after a certain amount of subsidies,
this is going to catch on and the market will
(02:56):
take off. But it never did.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So why did was that?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Was that just government saying we're going to subsidize this
forever and we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. Yeah, Actually two of the two of the public
policy makers at the center of this are are Michigan
governor's former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm who's the head of
the Energy Department, current Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Really really took
(03:27):
communists China as their model and the idea that that
the transportation sector is thirty percent of CO two emissions,
and which is not actually accurate. I mean, the individual
transportation sector, the cars you and I drive are about
six percent of CO two emissions. But and so that's
(03:52):
who they targeted. You know, really most most transportation emissions,
if you look at the world that way, are from
trucks and from this, you know, huge industry infrastructure. We
have it's going back and forth. But typical government that
came after us, you know, they go after individual choice first,
and so you really have this sort of parallel economy
(04:13):
where consumers were buying what they want, but the government,
through the Biden EPA and through California, which is the
most aggressive state, we're trying to force electric vehicles with
these subsidies and with these mandates. And the irony is
if the reason that China, which is a fully socialist economy,
(04:36):
the reason that they're pushing electric vehicles is because they
have about eighty percent of the rare earth minerals that
go into battery production. It's a very strategic geographic play
on their part. They don't care about a limit. Yeah,
they don't care about the climate change. I mean, to them,
(04:57):
it's a strategic play, just.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Kind of exchanging one environmental issue for another, because it's
not like making batteries is very healthy for the environment.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right yeah, I mean lithium. Lithium still comes out of
the ground. I mean it's it's a very energy intensive,
very messy process. So there's there's this sort of fanciful
religious movement to sustainability movement in the world right now
that the elites have glombed onto and this idea that
you can make everything without touching the earth, without touching
(05:31):
Mother Earth. But but the Chinese, if they make these batteries,
they get them out of the ground, they make them
with coal plants. They make a huge coal plant infrastructure.
That's uh, that's producing this. I mean, if the United
States wanted to be strategic, we would be pushing gasoline
fired cars, right because we have that. We have the
greatest fossil fuel resources in the world. So it's it's
(05:55):
a little perverse to use communist China your economic model.
But that's what the Energy Department did under Jennifer grand Home.
The industry was basically on two tracks. They were making
cars for the government, tric vehicles in order to force
in order to meet these mandates, and they are making
(06:16):
money making vehicles for us for people who drive, and
most people want gas cars. If you look at the
electric vehicle market, it really is a niche market, and
it's sort of this year we've really seen it stall
at about eight percent of sales.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Well, I mean, I think it's very interesting that you
brought up China. I was just having a conversation with
one of our Michigan manufacturers earlier last week, and he
was saying, we're suddenly seeing he makes parts for cars,
so he's a supplier to the auto industry. And he said,
we're now seeing a bunch of these parts that were
being made in China that in the two thousand and
(06:55):
eight to twenty thirteen era started to go over to
China and they were making them for much less expensive.
He said, we're starting to see those coming back now,
so it's almost like we're beating China. But as similar,
he said something to me that I really hadn't thought about.
He said, there was no way that the auto industry
and the suppliers could come back in the United States
(07:18):
without what Donald Trump did, because he said we would
get in the numbers that our auto companies were paying
to China. He said, China can't make it for that money.
They are heavily subsidizing it to have control over the
US market. So they were paying to make to make
American auto parts just to have control over the American market.
(07:40):
And that was not being seen by our elected officials.
How could we let China have control over something to critical?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Right, Yeah, classic socialist model. You subsidize your homegrown industry
and then you hope to put other industries out of
business in other countries. So it's a lot of money
that the Chinese are investing in that market. But you know,
if you look in this market, they haven't come here.
(08:09):
You know why the Chinese have come here in some
of their subsidiaries, j Lee, for example, loans Volvo and
so you do see vol of the electric vehicles here,
but the big Chinese manufacturers haven't come here. I mean,
this is a very difficult consumer market to come into.
It is by far the richest, most competitive market, and
(08:32):
the electric vehicles have really had a hard time getting
traction here beyond a certain subset of customer that has
multiple cars in their garage because evs are inferior to
gas cars. The gasoline engine is just so efficient at
getting you from point A to point B. You can
(08:53):
fill up a five hundred mile tank in two minutes
and be on your way. Most electric vehicles don't even
have five hundred miles of range. I have a Tesla
for example, I drive my Tesla on long trips. I
can go two hundred and fifty miles on a charge,
and then I have to sit at a charger for
(09:15):
a half hour in order to get that two hundred
and fifty miles back. So it's just not nearly as
efficient as gasoline. And the only reason that this push
has been coming is because the US government and state
governments like California have been trying to force this on
the industry, but the consumer just hasn't been and that's
(09:37):
why you're seeing the market flat line here at eight percent.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well, you said something interesting, you said the Chinese haven't
come here, And I think what you meant by that
is that their cars because they have their own brands
in China and they haven't been able to bring their
Chinese vehicles into the United States.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think there's a couple of reasons for that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I mean, part of it, I think is where would
people there's not the infrastructure, Like you said, you have
to stop. But if you had a massive influx and
the Chinese could have a massive influx of electric vehicles
all at one time, there would know by know what
means be the infrastructure to actually charge these cars. But
I think the second thing is that the auto industry
(10:18):
has hundreds of lobbyists. They're not going to let anybody
come into the United States. They're certainly not going to
let China come into the United States and take away
their entire industry and say, Okay, they've they've already perfected
electric vehicles. They're going to come in and they're just
going to take over this industry and then nobody's gonna
you know, the story back then was that nobody would
drive a gas vehicle. Ever, again, in California was already
(10:40):
well on their way to say we're done with gas vehicles.
So my question to you is, if they could stop
all of that with their lobbyists, why did they allow
this subsidizing of evs to occur in the United States
when they weren't seeing the sales they saw the numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, we've seen
we've seen large corporations in this country become very woke,
become very sensitive to cultural media trends. I think that's
part of it. They want to appear to be progressive,
(11:18):
they want to be in line with a media narrative
that they're doing good things for the earth. But they
also saw a very successful US electric company called Tesla
become a trillion dollar company. I mean, if you look
at General Motors today, which is the largest US manufacturer
(11:40):
in the United States Fortune five hundred company. Their market
cap is fifty five million, fifty five million dollars. Tesla,
which doesn't sell anywhere near as many vehicles as GM does,
has a one trillion dollar market gap, and so I
think there's I think companies like GM and Ford VW
(12:02):
others looked at Tesla and said, you know, how do
we get to that kind of market cap? And so
when they went to the capital markets, that was the
sexy thing, was to offer electric vehicles. And at the
same time, you had this trend where the government was California,
for example, by next year, was mandating that thirty five
(12:24):
percent of vehicles sold had to be electric, and so
they were seeing that trend from governments, and so they're
trying to dovetail the Tesla experience with the government experience.
And now here comes the Trump administration takes away California's
(12:45):
privilege to set those kind of mandates, takes away the
seventy five hundred dollars tax credit, and all of a sudden,
these companies are doing a U turn and going back
to what the majority of the market wants.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
It has been nearly two years two years since the
terrorists murdered more than twelve hundred innocent Israelis and took
two hundred and fifty hostages. Today it seems like the
cries of the dead and the dying are being drown
out by these shouts of hatred, of anti Semitic hatred
like we've never heard before. You know it and I
(13:19):
know it, and it's almost like the most brutal attack
on the Jewish people since the Holocaust has been forgotten.
But it hasn't because as the world looks away, there
is still a light.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
There is this beautiful light that shines in the darkness,
and it is a movement of love and support for
the people of Israel called Flags of Fellowship, and it's
being organized by the International Fellowship of Christians in Jews.
And on October fifth, just a few weeks away, millions
across America will prayerfully plant an Israeli flag in honor
(13:53):
and solidarity with the victims of October seventh, twenty twenty three.
And they're grieving families. And now you can a part
of this movement too. For you to get more information
about how you can join the Flags of Fellowship movement,
visit the fellowship at IFCJ dot org. That's IFCJ dot org.
(14:13):
Visit and join the movement today.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, I guess if you're a manufacturing company and you
look and say, while there's an entire state now that
is going to require a new type of vehicle, that's opportunity.
You know, you don't see that as a negative. You
see that as opportunity to pick up that business. But
now it seems like that's changing a bit. We're seeing
that Cadillac is pausing their production on the Lyric, on
the Vestique. The Lyric in some cases that that vehicle
(14:42):
costs almost one hundred thousand dollars. So all of these
people that purchase the Lyric in the last few years,
I just wonder if they're going, what does this mean?
Because at the same time as we see Cadillac pausing
production on these evs, the CEO of GM is also
so selling off forty percent of her stock, which actually
(15:03):
shocks me. I'm shocked that any company allows their CEO
to have such a massive sell off all at once.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, there's a company you're probably better qualified than I
am to speak to. You know how business works in
these corporations. Mary Mary Barr's incentive is mostly through stock options.
She makes about thirty million dollars a year, but two
million of that is salary, so the rest of it
(15:34):
is stock options. And so yeah, there's there's there's a
lot of triggers that sell stocks their algorithms. Like I say,
I'm not an expert on business executive packages. I don't
think that has anything to do with the current market.
I mean, relatively speaking, GM stock is okay. The iPod
(15:56):
a decade ago at about thirty three dollars a share,
they're at fifty five dollars a share now. Relatively speaking,
I think they're okay. They're nowhere near Tesla market cap,
as I say, But I think the other thing that's
going on with GM, with the Cadillac is they're trying
(16:16):
to they're trying to make that an international brand again.
Cadillac used to be the global standard for luxury vehicles.
It lost that halo to BMW, to Mercedes, to Audi,
and so Cadillac sees a chance to refresh itself as
an all electric brand. And so it's selling internationally for
(16:39):
the first time in a long long time, going into Europe,
which is mandating electric vehicles, all electric vehicles by twenty
thirty five. Think of that. Go to Europe and you
will not be able to buy a DAS powered vehicle
in the next ten years, And so they see opportunity
there in these international markets. I think that's what's going
(17:00):
on with Cadillac. But I tell you that that GM
is so big, and again, when you get government regulation
in place like this, it favors big companies, right. It
makes it very hard for smaller entities to get into
the market. GM is big enough that they basically make
parallel lines of an electric vehicle to satisfy the government
and gasoline lines to satisfy the consumer. And to give
(17:23):
any example of how different those two markets are, Chevy
sells an Equinox electric vehicle, the Equinox EV, and they
sell a Chevy Equinox gas powered vehicle in the mid
size suv segment, the biggest segment in the industry. In
(17:44):
the first six months of this year, the Equinox gas
suv sold one hundred and sixty thousand units. The electric
vehicle sold thirty thousand units. That shows you the gap
between those two markets.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And those are all sold in the US.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yes, that's that's that's US market share. So you know,
you read the press. You know, the press has become
big cheerleaders for the EV mandates, and they talk about
how popular the Chevy Equinox has been, selling thirty thousand
units in the first six six months this year. It's
nowhere close to the Gas Equinox at one hundred and
(18:25):
sixty thousand.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So I hear what you're saying about Cadillac being I
guess trumped by the other brands and suddenly they're becoming
the luxury brand.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But I have to say I have a Tahoe, which
is like the.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You know, lower even one step down from the Cadillac,
and I think it is absolutely the best car I think.
I mean outside of the fact that we do we
use a lot of gas, but it.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Is it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think the American manufacturers have done such an amazing
job with every every detail that I need, all every
detail that the kids need. I mean, the car is
like it's like driving our little house around. We took
the car from Michigan to South Carolina this year. It
was absolutely fantastic. I will say that there's been a
(19:14):
few things here and there that Cadillac or GM always
calls me and I always get a note from Chevy
saying bring.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The car in. They have great service. I mean, maybe
it's just my area, but.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I absolutely adore my car. I adore my dealership. I
think that they are fabulous every time I walk in there.
But I do wonder when people are going to these
foreign brands, are they not seeing what the American brands
have done to improve because I think Cadillac is top
of the line.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, and you look at where GM makes its money,
that's where it makes its money. And again, this is
the perversity of government regulation. The United States customer is
the richest customer in the world. The United States has
the greatest reserves of fossil fuels under our feet in
the world. Right, so you would think that government would
(20:08):
want to aid General Motors and Ford and Stillantis by
helping them build these big vehicles that Americans want and
then put cheap gas in them. And that's what the
Biden administration did everything possible to resist that, to model
the US auto economy after China as opposed to the
(20:30):
strengths that our economy have here. And so the Trump administration,
I think very smartly has come in. They've not only
taken away these regulations, but they've also really emphasized any
energy production. And so you see the gas prices going down.
I was driving back from northern Michigan over the weekend.
(20:53):
Gasoline was under three dollars a gallon. Electric vehicles, by
the way, cannot compete against a sub three dollars gasoline.
A gasoline has to be about four dollars and fifty
cents in order for electric vehicles to make sense really
in terms of in terms of charging expense on the road.
(21:15):
So if the cheaper you make gasoline, the better it
is for you and your tahoe, but the worse it
is for garments trying to force electric vehicles. So you
can just it's such a perverse incentive game that the
Democrats have put in place. And now you have on
top of that, they've lost the Midwest working class. Right
(21:37):
These auto workers the UAW Brian Pennebecker, I have him
on my radio show frequently, who leads a group of
auto workers here in the Midwest. They all embrace Donald
Trump's not only his low energy, his cheap energy campaign,
(21:59):
but also bringing jobs back to the United States that
used to be the Democrat. Meat and potatoes was the
Midwest working class and bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US.
That is all a Republican Republican strength now and you
see it because the Tahoe, these truck based vehicles at
(22:23):
GM makes, they're moving back up here to Lake Orion
in Michigan from Mexico and they're going to fill that
entire plant out. Yeah, that plant was going to be
an electric plant. The electric market is stalled, it's going
to decline more without the tax credits, and the vehicles
are going to be coming in there with us. Jobs
are going to be vehicles like Tahoes and Chevy Silverado's.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Go get a Tahoe. It's great.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I know I'm like doing an ad for it right now,
but I tell you I absolutely love it. But you
said something I want to get to because earlier in
the podcast, you said, look, China has the biggest stores
of these rare earth minerals of anybody in the world,
and that is why they want electric vehicles because for them,
they have the fuel that makes it. They're able to
(23:09):
make these batteries. In the United States, our fuel and
our benefit is that we have the oil. We have
the reserves there. So why on earth would we say
we are going to fund China's new industry and help
them to create these rare earth mineral batteries that are
so dangerous to the environment and so dangerous with child
(23:31):
labor and human rights. I mean, everything on the ev
side of it, especially related to China, sounds bad.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Why would the government fund that?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, it's just the power of the sustainability religion. I
call it the Second Prohibition era. One hundred years ago,
the temperance movement became obsessed with alcohol and alcohol was
a source of all evil in the world, that we
got the alcohol prohibition era. I think there's a similar
thing going on today where you have this sustainability movement
(24:04):
has become convinced that carbon is the source of all
evil in the world. That it causes. It causes hurricanes,
it causes heat waves, tornadoes, it's going to destroy everything.
The Bide administration called it the greatest existential threat to mankind,
that we were going to go extinct because of carbon mensions,
(24:27):
and so I think there's this obsession with that with
carbon prohibition, and then it drives perverse policy, just like
we saw a hundred years ago. With alcohol prohibition. I mean,
think of it that the Chinese, they haven't come into
this market just because they don't I just don't think
they feel like their products are competitive here. But they
(24:48):
have gone into Europe. They see that Europe is going
down this obsessive anti carbon policy line where they're eliminating
all of their fossil fuel vehicles. They make some of
the the best VW BMW, they make some of the
greatest internal combustion engines in the world, and their governments
are eliminating that advantage. And the Chinese have come in
(25:10):
and they've already taken about twelve percent of the European market.
Because of this carbon obsession that you've seen, that's causing
europe problems not only on their vehicle automaker front, but
also in places like their dependence on Russian natural gas. Right.
So yeah, you just you get the wrong public policy
(25:34):
in place and it causes all kinds of perverse incentives.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Last year, I think they were projecting three VW plants
closing in Germany, which I think is devastating. My first
car was a VW I had of Lkswagen Corrado. It
was like the coolest car. And my kids every day
they're always like punchbug. I mean this morning on the
way to school, they're looking for a VW bug to
punch each other.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You know, it's like it's part of our culture. And
to think that that's just gone. And you talked about
perverse policies.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I mean, obviously we've seen this over in Europe for
quite some time, but in Michigan we saw this up
close and personal because Gretchen Whitmer, she really did put
all of the Michigan eggs into the Evy basket. And
while we were seeing our industry decline and this is
our legacy, legacy industry.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
As we were seeing the automotive.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Industry go to Tennessee, go to Kentucky, go to Ohio,
go to Indiana, she kept saying, We're going to get
the next battery plant and it never came. Do you
think that these politicians should be held accountable? I mean,
she is definitely running for president. What could be what
could happen to us if we end up with her
in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean, well, transparency and good reporting like you
do is important. I mean, you look at the battery
piece where battery production is enormously energy intensive. So if
you're the if you're the auto auto industry, where do
you where do you put your battery plans? You put
them down south where there's hydro. You put them in Tennessee,
(27:09):
you put them in uh, North Carolina, places that have
really low utility rates, because because it costs so much,
you're not going to put them in Michigan, you know,
just you know, because of uh, you know, geography and
other reasons.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
And because we have the highest energy rates in the Midwest.
I mean, that's something that here you have the governor
who clearly knows that our energy costs the highest amount
in the entire Midwest. And yet Gretchen Whitmer said, yes,
push the ev industry that is highly energy intensive. AI
another industry, highly energy intensive.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Those are the future.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
They're not coming to Michigan, or they were the future then,
and AI still is.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
We still have the highest cost.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right and so so those plants are going to other states,
and Whitmer's doubling down, eliminating the uh you know, the
fossil fuel industry here, shutting down cold plants. It just doesn't. Yeah,
I got a government just doesn't. It's not good at
running economies. And you're seeing that take place. I mean,
there's there's a there's a you know this this this
(28:11):
policy was so comprehensive by the Biden administration and the
Whitmer administration that they gave one hundred and sixty million
dollars to an electric bus company called Lyon, which has
supplied a lot of school districts, including districts here in Michigan.
There's the school district east of west of ann Arbor
(28:32):
here that that got a bunch of electric buses from Lyon.
Guess what, Lyon went bankrupt. They went bankrupt, So now
they can't service the buses. The you know, this school
district which paid three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for
each one of these school buses versus a typical one
hundred and fifty thousand dollars diesel bus. All of a sudden,
(28:54):
they just have these bricks in their parking lot because
the government pushed it, pushed it on them. Then the
company went bankrupt and now they have to go back
to diesel buses. You know, it's created so many perverse
incentives and now let's say even hurting school districts in
this state.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I mean, but you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I think this is such a good lesson in be
careful who you elect and be careful what they're saying.
I mean, right now, we have elected officials in Michigan
who are running for higher office.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I mean, Mallory mcmarrow is one of them. That comes
to mind.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
She has said she wants to put a tax on
Lions games. The minute the Lions started winning, Democrats wanted
to tax Lions games. So let's put an entertainment tax in.
And there were people across the state that said, well,
we'll just do it in Detroit, and she came out
and said, let's put an entertainment tax in on the
entire state. And I just think that this is a
critical time for us to look at who's running for
(29:49):
office and make sure they are not promoting these perverse
policy policies of huge government and government taking over anything everything,
because ultimately we end up with intries that don't function.
And we're thankful that the auto industry seems to be
coming back, and I hope that it comes back big
time in the state of Michigan.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
But I know you'll keep us posted on.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
That absolutely, but always always willing to talk Tutor.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Henry Payne, you can find him at the Detroit News
and you can find him on the radio, but he's
definitely a wealth of information for us.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah. Thanks, great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Absolutely, and thank you all for joining us on the
Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to
Tutor Dixon podcast dot com, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you watch listen to your podcast. You can
watch it on Rumble and YouTube at Tutor Dixon and
join us the next time.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Have a blessing.
Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today we have Henry
Payne with us. He is the Detroit News auto columnist
and the host of the weekly car radio program for
nine ten am Detroit, and I wanted to talk today
about electric vehicles. It seems like we're seeing the death
of the electric vehicle right now. But Henry is the expert,
so I welcome him here today to tell us all
(00:23):
about what's going on with the industry.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Yeah, hey, Tutor, great to be with you. A lot
of lots going on in this industry.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
There's so much because right now.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
So we obviously in Michigan were extra sensitive to this,
but I think everybody across the nation, so many states
have started auto manufacturing that we're kind of all sort
of waiting into anticipation of what's about to happen. But
we're seeing that GM is pausing production and in some
cases they are canceling production on their evs. So I'm
wondering if you think this is a kind of proactive
(00:55):
response to them anticipating these tax credits running out at
the end of the month.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah. I mean, it's really been an extraordinary period these
last few years, and it shows the flaw with socialism,
with government run market economics. I mean, we've really been
in a period driven by government mandates, by government incentives,
going back through the Biden administration, and it really, I mean,
(01:25):
it shows you how far that party has moved left.
They really see communists China as the economic model, and
they have been trying to follow that for the last
four years, trying to force an electric vehicle market like
China has done, and trying to subsidize that. Billions and
(01:50):
billions of dollars going into battery plants, huge mandates from
the EPA from California forcing me manufacturers to eliminate their
fossil fuel burning cars. So all of this has been
government driven for the last four years. And then you
(02:11):
could bring in a new administration which is a free market,
more free market oriented administration, all those incentives go away,
and it just shows you how unreliable government is as
an economic driver. You really want consumer markets driving these things,
and that's what we've seen. Just in the last year.
(02:33):
The bottom has fallen out.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Of v There was a lie almost where they told us,
you know, if we subsidize this long enough, this is
going to catch on. The infrastructure will be there. There
was never enough infrastructure there. And I mean look at
the state of Michigan. You had the governor who was
putting even Michigan tax dollars into creating this industry. And
the idea was, Okay, after a certain amount of subsidies,
this is going to catch on and the market will
(02:56):
take off. But it never did.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
So why did was that?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Was that just government saying we're going to subsidize this
forever and we didn't know.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah. Yeah, Actually two of the two of the public
policy makers at the center of this are are Michigan
governor's former Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm who's the head of
the Energy Department, current Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Really really took
(03:27):
communists China as their model and the idea that that
the transportation sector is thirty percent of CO two emissions,
and which is not actually accurate. I mean, the individual
transportation sector, the cars you and I drive are about
six percent of CO two emissions. But and so that's
(03:52):
who they targeted. You know, really most most transportation emissions,
if you look at the world that way, are from
trucks and from this, you know, huge industry infrastructure. We
have it's going back and forth. But typical government that
came after us, you know, they go after individual choice first,
and so you really have this sort of parallel economy
(04:13):
where consumers were buying what they want, but the government,
through the Biden EPA and through California, which is the
most aggressive state, we're trying to force electric vehicles with
these subsidies and with these mandates. And the irony is
if the reason that China, which is a fully socialist economy,
(04:36):
the reason that they're pushing electric vehicles is because they
have about eighty percent of the rare earth minerals that
go into battery production. It's a very strategic geographic play
on their part. They don't care about a limit. Yeah,
they don't care about the climate change. I mean, to them,
(04:57):
it's a strategic play, just.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Kind of exchanging one environmental issue for another, because it's
not like making batteries is very healthy for the environment.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right yeah, I mean lithium. Lithium still comes out of
the ground. I mean it's it's a very energy intensive,
very messy process. So there's there's this sort of fanciful
religious movement to sustainability movement in the world right now
that the elites have glombed onto and this idea that
you can make everything without touching the earth, without touching
(05:31):
Mother Earth. But but the Chinese, if they make these batteries,
they get them out of the ground, they make them
with coal plants. They make a huge coal plant infrastructure.
That's uh, that's producing this. I mean, if the United
States wanted to be strategic, we would be pushing gasoline
fired cars, right because we have that. We have the
greatest fossil fuel resources in the world. So it's it's
(05:55):
a little perverse to use communist China your economic model.
But that's what the Energy Department did under Jennifer grand Home.
The industry was basically on two tracks. They were making
cars for the government, tric vehicles in order to force
in order to meet these mandates, and they are making
(06:16):
money making vehicles for us for people who drive, and
most people want gas cars. If you look at the
electric vehicle market, it really is a niche market, and
it's sort of this year we've really seen it stall
at about eight percent of sales.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Well, I mean, I think it's very interesting that you
brought up China. I was just having a conversation with
one of our Michigan manufacturers earlier last week, and he
was saying, we're suddenly seeing he makes parts for cars,
so he's a supplier to the auto industry. And he said,
we're now seeing a bunch of these parts that were
being made in China that in the two thousand and
(06:55):
eight to twenty thirteen era started to go over to
China and they were making them for much less expensive.
He said, we're starting to see those coming back now,
so it's almost like we're beating China. But as similar,
he said something to me that I really hadn't thought about.
He said, there was no way that the auto industry
and the suppliers could come back in the United States
(07:18):
without what Donald Trump did, because he said we would
get in the numbers that our auto companies were paying
to China. He said, China can't make it for that money.
They are heavily subsidizing it to have control over the
US market. So they were paying to make to make
American auto parts just to have control over the American market.
(07:40):
And that was not being seen by our elected officials.
How could we let China have control over something to critical?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Right, Yeah, classic socialist model. You subsidize your homegrown industry
and then you hope to put other industries out of
business in other countries. So it's a lot of money
that the Chinese are investing in that market. But you know,
if you look in this market, they haven't come here.
(08:09):
You know why the Chinese have come here in some
of their subsidiaries, j Lee, for example, loans Volvo and
so you do see vol of the electric vehicles here,
but the big Chinese manufacturers haven't come here. I mean,
this is a very difficult consumer market to come into.
It is by far the richest, most competitive market, and
(08:32):
the electric vehicles have really had a hard time getting
traction here beyond a certain subset of customer that has
multiple cars in their garage because evs are inferior to
gas cars. The gasoline engine is just so efficient at
getting you from point A to point B. You can
(08:53):
fill up a five hundred mile tank in two minutes
and be on your way. Most electric vehicles don't even
have five hundred miles of range. I have a Tesla
for example, I drive my Tesla on long trips. I
can go two hundred and fifty miles on a charge,
and then I have to sit at a charger for
(09:15):
a half hour in order to get that two hundred
and fifty miles back. So it's just not nearly as
efficient as gasoline. And the only reason that this push
has been coming is because the US government and state
governments like California have been trying to force this on
the industry, but the consumer just hasn't been and that's
(09:37):
why you're seeing the market flat line here at eight percent.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well, you said something interesting, you said the Chinese haven't
come here, And I think what you meant by that
is that their cars because they have their own brands
in China and they haven't been able to bring their
Chinese vehicles into the United States.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
I think there's a couple of reasons for that.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
I mean, part of it, I think is where would
people there's not the infrastructure, Like you said, you have
to stop. But if you had a massive influx and
the Chinese could have a massive influx of electric vehicles
all at one time, there would know by know what
means be the infrastructure to actually charge these cars. But
I think the second thing is that the auto industry
(10:18):
has hundreds of lobbyists. They're not going to let anybody
come into the United States. They're certainly not going to
let China come into the United States and take away
their entire industry and say, Okay, they've they've already perfected
electric vehicles. They're going to come in and they're just
going to take over this industry and then nobody's gonna
you know, the story back then was that nobody would
drive a gas vehicle. Ever, again, in California was already
(10:40):
well on their way to say we're done with gas vehicles.
So my question to you is, if they could stop
all of that with their lobbyists, why did they allow
this subsidizing of evs to occur in the United States
when they weren't seeing the sales they saw the numbers.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, we've seen
we've seen large corporations in this country become very woke,
become very sensitive to cultural media trends. I think that's
part of it. They want to appear to be progressive,
(11:18):
they want to be in line with a media narrative
that they're doing good things for the earth. But they
also saw a very successful US electric company called Tesla
become a trillion dollar company. I mean, if you look
at General Motors today, which is the largest US manufacturer
(11:40):
in the United States Fortune five hundred company. Their market
cap is fifty five million, fifty five million dollars. Tesla,
which doesn't sell anywhere near as many vehicles as GM does,
has a one trillion dollar market gap, and so I
think there's I think companies like GM and Ford VW
(12:02):
others looked at Tesla and said, you know, how do
we get to that kind of market cap? And so
when they went to the capital markets, that was the
sexy thing, was to offer electric vehicles. And at the
same time, you had this trend where the government was California,
for example, by next year, was mandating that thirty five
(12:24):
percent of vehicles sold had to be electric, and so
they were seeing that trend from governments, and so they're
trying to dovetail the Tesla experience with the government experience.
And now here comes the Trump administration takes away California's
(12:45):
privilege to set those kind of mandates, takes away the
seventy five hundred dollars tax credit, and all of a sudden,
these companies are doing a U turn and going back
to what the majority of the market wants.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
It has been nearly two years two years since the
terrorists murdered more than twelve hundred innocent Israelis and took
two hundred and fifty hostages. Today it seems like the
cries of the dead and the dying are being drown
out by these shouts of hatred, of anti Semitic hatred
like we've never heard before. You know it and I
(13:19):
know it, and it's almost like the most brutal attack
on the Jewish people since the Holocaust has been forgotten.
But it hasn't because as the world looks away, there
is still a light.
Speaker 5 (13:31):
There is this beautiful light that shines in the darkness,
and it is a movement of love and support for
the people of Israel called Flags of Fellowship, and it's
being organized by the International Fellowship of Christians in Jews.
And on October fifth, just a few weeks away, millions
across America will prayerfully plant an Israeli flag in honor
(13:53):
and solidarity with the victims of October seventh, twenty twenty three.
And they're grieving families. And now you can a part
of this movement too. For you to get more information
about how you can join the Flags of Fellowship movement,
visit the fellowship at IFCJ dot org. That's IFCJ dot org.
(14:13):
Visit and join the movement today.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Yeah, I guess if you're a manufacturing company and you
look and say, while there's an entire state now that
is going to require a new type of vehicle, that's opportunity.
You know, you don't see that as a negative. You
see that as opportunity to pick up that business. But
now it seems like that's changing a bit. We're seeing
that Cadillac is pausing their production on the Lyric, on
the Vestique. The Lyric in some cases that that vehicle
(14:42):
costs almost one hundred thousand dollars. So all of these
people that purchase the Lyric in the last few years,
I just wonder if they're going, what does this mean?
Because at the same time as we see Cadillac pausing
production on these evs, the CEO of GM is also
so selling off forty percent of her stock, which actually
(15:03):
shocks me. I'm shocked that any company allows their CEO
to have such a massive sell off all at once.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, there's a company you're probably better qualified than I
am to speak to. You know how business works in
these corporations. Mary Mary Barr's incentive is mostly through stock options.
She makes about thirty million dollars a year, but two
million of that is salary, so the rest of it
(15:34):
is stock options. And so yeah, there's there's there's a
lot of triggers that sell stocks their algorithms. Like I say,
I'm not an expert on business executive packages. I don't
think that has anything to do with the current market.
I mean, relatively speaking, GM stock is okay. The iPod
(15:56):
a decade ago at about thirty three dollars a share,
they're at fifty five dollars a share now. Relatively speaking,
I think they're okay. They're nowhere near Tesla market cap,
as I say, But I think the other thing that's
going on with GM, with the Cadillac is they're trying
(16:16):
to they're trying to make that an international brand again.
Cadillac used to be the global standard for luxury vehicles.
It lost that halo to BMW, to Mercedes, to Audi,
and so Cadillac sees a chance to refresh itself as
an all electric brand. And so it's selling internationally for
(16:39):
the first time in a long long time, going into Europe,
which is mandating electric vehicles, all electric vehicles by twenty
thirty five. Think of that. Go to Europe and you
will not be able to buy a DAS powered vehicle
in the next ten years, And so they see opportunity
there in these international markets. I think that's what's going
(17:00):
on with Cadillac. But I tell you that that GM
is so big, and again, when you get government regulation
in place like this, it favors big companies, right. It
makes it very hard for smaller entities to get into
the market. GM is big enough that they basically make
parallel lines of an electric vehicle to satisfy the government
and gasoline lines to satisfy the consumer. And to give
(17:23):
any example of how different those two markets are, Chevy
sells an Equinox electric vehicle, the Equinox EV, and they
sell a Chevy Equinox gas powered vehicle in the mid
size suv segment, the biggest segment in the industry. In
(17:44):
the first six months of this year, the Equinox gas
suv sold one hundred and sixty thousand units. The electric
vehicle sold thirty thousand units. That shows you the gap
between those two markets.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
And those are all sold in the US.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yes, that's that's that's US market share. So you know,
you read the press. You know, the press has become
big cheerleaders for the EV mandates, and they talk about
how popular the Chevy Equinox has been, selling thirty thousand
units in the first six six months this year. It's
nowhere close to the Gas Equinox at one hundred and
(18:25):
sixty thousand.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So I hear what you're saying about Cadillac being I
guess trumped by the other brands and suddenly they're becoming
the luxury brand.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But I have to say I have a Tahoe, which
is like the.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
You know, lower even one step down from the Cadillac,
and I think it is absolutely the best car I think.
I mean outside of the fact that we do we
use a lot of gas, but it.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Is it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
I think the American manufacturers have done such an amazing
job with every every detail that I need, all every
detail that the kids need. I mean, the car is
like it's like driving our little house around. We took
the car from Michigan to South Carolina this year. It
was absolutely fantastic. I will say that there's been a
(19:14):
few things here and there that Cadillac or GM always
calls me and I always get a note from Chevy
saying bring.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
The car in. They have great service. I mean, maybe
it's just my area, but.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
I absolutely adore my car. I adore my dealership. I
think that they are fabulous every time I walk in there.
But I do wonder when people are going to these
foreign brands, are they not seeing what the American brands
have done to improve because I think Cadillac is top
of the line.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, and you look at where GM makes its money,
that's where it makes its money. And again, this is
the perversity of government regulation. The United States customer is
the richest customer in the world. The United States has
the greatest reserves of fossil fuels under our feet in
the world. Right, so you would think that government would
(20:08):
want to aid General Motors and Ford and Stillantis by
helping them build these big vehicles that Americans want and
then put cheap gas in them. And that's what the
Biden administration did everything possible to resist that, to model
the US auto economy after China as opposed to the
(20:30):
strengths that our economy have here. And so the Trump administration,
I think very smartly has come in. They've not only
taken away these regulations, but they've also really emphasized any
energy production. And so you see the gas prices going down.
I was driving back from northern Michigan over the weekend.
(20:53):
Gasoline was under three dollars a gallon. Electric vehicles, by
the way, cannot compete against a sub three dollars gasoline.
A gasoline has to be about four dollars and fifty
cents in order for electric vehicles to make sense really
in terms of in terms of charging expense on the road.
(21:15):
So if the cheaper you make gasoline, the better it
is for you and your tahoe, but the worse it
is for garments trying to force electric vehicles. So you
can just it's such a perverse incentive game that the
Democrats have put in place. And now you have on
top of that, they've lost the Midwest working class. Right
(21:37):
These auto workers the UAW Brian Pennebecker, I have him
on my radio show frequently, who leads a group of
auto workers here in the Midwest. They all embrace Donald
Trump's not only his low energy, his cheap energy campaign,
(21:59):
but also bringing jobs back to the United States that
used to be the Democrat. Meat and potatoes was the
Midwest working class and bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US.
That is all a Republican Republican strength now and you
see it because the Tahoe, these truck based vehicles at
(22:23):
GM makes, they're moving back up here to Lake Orion
in Michigan from Mexico and they're going to fill that
entire plant out. Yeah, that plant was going to be
an electric plant. The electric market is stalled, it's going
to decline more without the tax credits, and the vehicles
are going to be coming in there with us. Jobs
are going to be vehicles like Tahoes and Chevy Silverado's.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Go get a Tahoe. It's great.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I know I'm like doing an ad for it right now,
but I tell you I absolutely love it. But you
said something I want to get to because earlier in
the podcast, you said, look, China has the biggest stores
of these rare earth minerals of anybody in the world,
and that is why they want electric vehicles because for them,
they have the fuel that makes it. They're able to
(23:09):
make these batteries. In the United States, our fuel and
our benefit is that we have the oil. We have
the reserves there. So why on earth would we say
we are going to fund China's new industry and help
them to create these rare earth mineral batteries that are
so dangerous to the environment and so dangerous with child
(23:31):
labor and human rights. I mean, everything on the ev
side of it, especially related to China, sounds bad.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Why would the government fund that?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Yeah, it's just the power of the sustainability religion. I
call it the Second Prohibition era. One hundred years ago,
the temperance movement became obsessed with alcohol and alcohol was
a source of all evil in the world, that we
got the alcohol prohibition era. I think there's a similar
thing going on today where you have this sustainability movement
(24:04):
has become convinced that carbon is the source of all
evil in the world. That it causes. It causes hurricanes,
it causes heat waves, tornadoes, it's going to destroy everything.
The Bide administration called it the greatest existential threat to mankind,
that we were going to go extinct because of carbon mensions,
(24:27):
and so I think there's this obsession with that with
carbon prohibition, and then it drives perverse policy, just like
we saw a hundred years ago. With alcohol prohibition. I mean,
think of it that the Chinese, they haven't come into
this market just because they don't I just don't think
they feel like their products are competitive here. But they
(24:48):
have gone into Europe. They see that Europe is going
down this obsessive anti carbon policy line where they're eliminating
all of their fossil fuel vehicles. They make some of
the the best VW BMW, they make some of the
greatest internal combustion engines in the world, and their governments
are eliminating that advantage. And the Chinese have come in
(25:10):
and they've already taken about twelve percent of the European market.
Because of this carbon obsession that you've seen, that's causing
europe problems not only on their vehicle automaker front, but
also in places like their dependence on Russian natural gas. Right.
So yeah, you just you get the wrong public policy
(25:34):
in place and it causes all kinds of perverse incentives.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on
the Tutor Dixon podcast.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Last year, I think they were projecting three VW plants
closing in Germany, which I think is devastating. My first
car was a VW I had of Lkswagen Corrado. It
was like the coolest car. And my kids every day
they're always like punchbug. I mean this morning on the
way to school, they're looking for a VW bug to
punch each other.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
You know, it's like it's part of our culture. And
to think that that's just gone. And you talked about
perverse policies.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
I mean, obviously we've seen this over in Europe for
quite some time, but in Michigan we saw this up
close and personal because Gretchen Whitmer, she really did put
all of the Michigan eggs into the Evy basket. And
while we were seeing our industry decline and this is
our legacy, legacy industry.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
As we were seeing the automotive.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Industry go to Tennessee, go to Kentucky, go to Ohio,
go to Indiana, she kept saying, We're going to get
the next battery plant and it never came. Do you
think that these politicians should be held accountable? I mean,
she is definitely running for president. What could be what
could happen to us if we end up with her
in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean, well, transparency and good reporting like you
do is important. I mean, you look at the battery
piece where battery production is enormously energy intensive. So if
you're the if you're the auto auto industry, where do
you where do you put your battery plans? You put
them down south where there's hydro. You put them in Tennessee,
(27:09):
you put them in uh, North Carolina, places that have
really low utility rates, because because it costs so much,
you're not going to put them in Michigan, you know,
just you know, because of uh, you know, geography and
other reasons.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
And because we have the highest energy rates in the Midwest.
I mean, that's something that here you have the governor
who clearly knows that our energy costs the highest amount
in the entire Midwest. And yet Gretchen Whitmer said, yes,
push the ev industry that is highly energy intensive. AI
another industry, highly energy intensive.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Those are the future.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
They're not coming to Michigan, or they were the future then,
and AI still is.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
We still have the highest cost.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Right and so so those plants are going to other states,
and Whitmer's doubling down, eliminating the uh you know, the
fossil fuel industry here, shutting down cold plants. It just doesn't. Yeah,
I got a government just doesn't. It's not good at
running economies. And you're seeing that take place. I mean,
there's there's a there's a you know this this this
(28:11):
policy was so comprehensive by the Biden administration and the
Whitmer administration that they gave one hundred and sixty million
dollars to an electric bus company called Lyon, which has
supplied a lot of school districts, including districts here in Michigan.
There's the school district east of west of ann Arbor
(28:32):
here that that got a bunch of electric buses from Lyon.
Guess what, Lyon went bankrupt. They went bankrupt, So now
they can't service the buses. The you know, this school
district which paid three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for
each one of these school buses versus a typical one
hundred and fifty thousand dollars diesel bus. All of a sudden,
(28:54):
they just have these bricks in their parking lot because
the government pushed it, pushed it on them. Then the
company went bankrupt and now they have to go back
to diesel buses. You know, it's created so many perverse
incentives and now let's say even hurting school districts in
this state.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
I mean, but you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
I think this is such a good lesson in be
careful who you elect and be careful what they're saying.
I mean, right now, we have elected officials in Michigan
who are running for higher office.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
I mean, Mallory mcmarrow is one of them. That comes
to mind.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
She has said she wants to put a tax on
Lions games. The minute the Lions started winning, Democrats wanted
to tax Lions games. So let's put an entertainment tax in.
And there were people across the state that said, well,
we'll just do it in Detroit, and she came out
and said, let's put an entertainment tax in on the
entire state. And I just think that this is a
critical time for us to look at who's running for
(29:49):
office and make sure they are not promoting these perverse
policy policies of huge government and government taking over anything everything,
because ultimately we end up with intries that don't function.
And we're thankful that the auto industry seems to be
coming back, and I hope that it comes back big
time in the state of Michigan.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
But I know you'll keep us posted on.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
That absolutely, but always always willing to talk Tutor.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Henry Payne, you can find him at the Detroit News
and you can find him on the radio, but he's
definitely a wealth of information for us.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yeah. Thanks, great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Absolutely, and thank you all for joining us on the
Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this episode and others, go to
Tutor Dixon podcast dot com, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you watch listen to your podcast. You can
watch it on Rumble and YouTube at Tutor Dixon and
join us the next time.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Have a blessing.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Herd with Colin Cowherd
The Herd with Colin Cowherd is a thought-provoking, opinionated, and topic-driven journey through the top sports stories of the day.