August 5, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode, Dr. Nicole Saphier and Heritage Foundation policy expert Emma Waters examine America’s declining birthrate, a crisis with serious economic and cultural consequences. They discuss how falling marriage rates, delayed parenthood, and rising infertility contribute to the problem, and critique the limited effectiveness of government incentives. Waters emphasizes the importance of faith, strong families, and community support in reversing the trend. Wellness Unmasked is part of the Clay Travis & Buck Sexton Podcast Network - new episodes debut every Tuesday & Friday.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Wellness Unmass. I'm your host, doctor Cole Saffire,
and today we're diving into kind of a quiet but
potentially a consequential crisis. America's steadily declining birth rate. That's right,
when it comes to how many babies we're having, we
are below what it's recommended if we're going to keep
our population up, Meaning as our population continues to age,
(00:23):
we're having fewer and fewer babies. And ever since twenty
twenty three, our numbers are way below where it needs
to be. That two point one is that goal mark
they want people to be having on average about about
two kids per woman. Well, Elon Musk has been very
vocal about this for anybody who follows him on X,
I mean, he obviously makes headlines for a lot of reasons,
(00:43):
but he's absolutely been sounding the alarm on the very
issue we're going to be discussing. He said in quote
population collapse due to low birth rates is a much
bigger risk to civilization than global warning. Mark these words,
and he continues to say things like he argued that
we need a fertility rate of at least two point
seven children for women, so not two children for women,
(01:05):
but he's arguing up to three to stabilize the population
because so many today are choosing not to have children
at all. So why is that, Well, there's a lot
of reasons. There are fewer people getting married, people are
getting married and having babies later on in life, so
therefore they're having fewer kids. It's more expensive. We're also
(01:25):
seeing fertility issues here in the United States and across
the world. If you have menstruation changes in young girls,
a lot of women having difficulty having babies. And then
on top of that, the answer to everyone's problem seems
to be IVF. Well, IVF is expensive and it's not
something that everybody wants to do, and so instead of
tackling the root causes of why people aren't having as
(01:49):
many babies anymore, we keep just saying, all right, well,
we'll just do IVF or we'll do whatever it is,
but we need to look at some of the root causes.
I'm extremely excited today to have Emma Waters. She's a
policy expert at the Heritage Foundation. This is what she does.
She has studied policies all across the globe. Because the
United States were not the only ones with low birth rates.
In fact, there are a lot of other countries that
(02:11):
are much lower than ours, including Europe and Asia, and
so she has looked at all the policies that they've
done to see what works and what doesn't work. You're
listening to Wellness and Mass. We'll be right back with more, Okay,
well Joining me today is Emma Waters, policy expert at
the Heritage Foundation, where she focuses on family formation, marriage
(02:32):
and demographic trends. Emma has been one of the boldest
voices sounding the alarm on our declining birth rate and
pushing back against the idea that this is just an
inevitable shift. So, Emma, do you agree with Elon Musk
when he says that population collapse is truly our greatest
existential threat.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I think that Elon Musk has done more than almost
anyone to raise awareness about declining birth rates to a
national and even global scale. When he says that decline
birth rates are the number one demographic crisis, however, I
think that's where I probably would deviate a little bit
and say that it's not just declining birth rates that
we're concerned about, but it's the failure of millions of
(03:13):
families to form families in the United States. So it's
not simply that we're having fewer children, but it's that
fewer people are getting married and forming those necessary bonds
that really are the basis of our society.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So when you say that, I mean you are taking
this to a greater scale. Elon Musk is essentially saying,
we're just not having enough babies to replace, you know,
our aging population. We see it all over the world.
We have declining birth rates. They say that you want
to be at two point one births per woman to
be able to replace the population and continue to grow.
(03:48):
A lot of countries are below that, and since twenty
twenty three, the US is now below that as well.
But you are pointing to kind of bigger issues. It's
not just about how many babies women are having, but
the question is why aren't they having babies? And what
are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, this is exactly right. So if you look beyond
even the twenty first century and go back to the
twentieth century, long before we had declining birth rates in
the United States, we had a marriage crisis, and so
from the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies onward, we saw
a divorce fight, We saw an increase in single parenthood.
Some of this was motivated by no fault divorce, some
(04:25):
of this by the sexual revolution and hookup culture. But
marriage was really redefined in the twentieth century and from
then onwards has shifted away from being the cornerstone or
the basis of a person's life that they build and
become the capstone something that they seek to sort of
tap a cap off their career success, their personal fulfillment.
(04:48):
And so with that shift to view marriage as something
we pursue later in life as an add on to
who we are, not the basis of maybe who we
are in our family and our nation. We've seen declining
birth rates come out of that, so you're absolutely right.
In twenty twenty three and then twenty twenty four, birth
rates then declining a lot in the United States, so
we're now down to one point five to nine berths
(05:10):
on average per woman, which is well below the replacement
rate of two point one. Now, the United States is
about neck and neck with most European nations on this front.
So developing nations and Israel tend to have a much
higher birth rate, but sadly, with the United States and Europe,
there's just been an ongoing downward trend. So the reasons
(05:32):
for that are complicated. And I like to say that
if anyone tells you that there's a single driver for
declining birth rates, they're probably trying to sell you something
which is usually a single solution for declining birth rates.
And I think both of those approaches really miss the
point here. And so there's a couple of things to
keep in mind. The first is the economic question, and
so the economic portion of this is really interesting to
(05:55):
me because on the one hand, there are serious economic
factors that make it hard to form and sustain families,
especially of multiple children today, and so there's a very
real sense that we do need to provide married, working
families with support in having the children and families that
they desire. On the other hand, across the United States
(06:17):
and the globe, when you see a country increase its
GDP or its affluenced material wealth, you see birth rates decline.
And so there's this inverted relationship where the more wealthy
a country becomes, the more wealthy estate becomes, their birth
rates tend to decline. And this is the case across
the United States. States with a higher median income have
(06:37):
a lower birth rate compared to state. I think so
there's a couple. I think there's a couple of potential things.
Catherine Bucolic a professor at Catholic University of America. She
makes the argument that children are no longer in economic necessity,
and so in lower income nations and potentially states, you
(06:59):
need to children to help support the family business, the
family well being, to work, to help take care of children,
there's more of an economic necessity for them, and certainly
that was more the case in the twentieth century than
the twenty first. But I think what you're also seeing
is an elevated expectation for what you should provide children.
So think about like my great grandparents they had like,
(07:22):
you know, eight kids, and they were like, all right, kids,
I fed you, I put you through school, you worked
on the farm, you turned eighteen, good luck, get out there,
figure something out. Very much like do it yourself mindset,
And there wasn't really an expectation that parents weren't necessarily
financially providing above the necessities for children, and certainly not
once they reached adulthood, whereas today there's this driving expectation
(07:45):
where parents are not only providing the car when they
turn sixteen, providing the best education that they can buy,
which oftentimes can be very pricey, providing a number of
other material goods, but also there's college, there's a wedding,
there's providing for your throughout. And while those are all
like very very good things, I think the expectation that
(08:05):
that's the norm to provide for every child has meant
that most families who aren't making above one hundred thousand
dollars are looking at and saying, well, I may be
able to do that for one kid, I may be
able to do it for two, but it's going to
be really hard to sustain through your four children at
that rate, and even for families making much more than that,
I think there's been a shift in our mindset where
(08:25):
we're hoping, where the expectation is you want to give
as much as possible to the children you can provide for,
which just tends to be fewer than a large family.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So I think like the materialism part of that is
interesting because it also means that simply.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Providing large cash or.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Financial incentives to have children I don't think really addresses
the problem because it just plays into that shift towards
materialism a little bit more so, countries across Europe who
have spent millions of dollars supporting families have not seen
an increase in their birth rates. And despite very generous programs,
(09:05):
most birth rates in Europe have continued to decline.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Not just Europe, right, We're talking all across the world.
I think Singapore, Japan, South Korea. They all gave like
the birth grants up to South Korea gave up to
ten thousand dollars birth grants per baby, plus free child
hare care, fertility subsidies, and housing perks for parents, and
they have still remained the world's lowest birth rate at
(09:30):
I think less than one point seven or something along
those lines.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, and South Korea is so interesting too because they
even give you paid time off for quote unquote pro
creation days, which.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Is hilarious, Like they really bring that to the United States, right.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So yeah, so the last yeah, no, it's it's really
and it's really interesting in South Korea because you also
see an increase. It's particularly in South Korea, China and
Japan where a number of women are simply saying that's fine,
like the government wants us to have more babies, but
like we really just care about our careers and it's
not like a bad thing. Bay it means right, like,
I love my job and the work that I do.
(10:05):
But there's this like interesting shift where it's not an
expectation that you can pursue marriage, motherhood and your career,
but that they're choosing between the two, and increasingly, especially
in those countries, they're choosing career and foregoing children in
marriage altogether. And I think there's a lot of cultural
baggage there that's being unpacked slowly but surely. But that's
(10:25):
another really interesting part of this, where I think women
in particular are feeling like they have to choose between
the two in a way that yeah, doesn't really match
for a good family or a desire to have many children.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well that's an interesting point as myself. You know, I
went to college, to medical school, to advanced training being
a professional woman. You hear a lot of people when
they talk about the declining birthrate, is that, you know,
ever since education and women join the professional workforce, you know,
this just went hand in hand. And I can understand
that to some extent, and I think I actually saw
(10:58):
stat don't quote me, in the last year or two
there were more women in the United States in their
forties having babies than teenagers, which on one hand is
excellent that we're not having team as many teen pregnancies. However,
to be over forty, when you are over forty starting
to have your babies, the chances of you having more
than one drastically decrease, and on top of that, you
(11:21):
have more difficult time having a baby in general.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, that's absolutely right, and I think that's a part
of the conversation too, is just the age of first
marriage is raised, is rising continually, and the age of
first child is rising continually, and that brings in maybe
one of the more controversial parts of the conversation when
it comes to IVF or other assisted reproductive technologies. So
(11:47):
it's interesting is the CDC announced their announced this new
decline in birth rates last week, and then the next
day was National IVF Day. And so in many cases,
especially across the United States and actually across the Europe
and Asia, people have talked about IVF being the solution
for declining birth rates, that men and women are struggling
(12:07):
to have kids, they're waiting later. So you have China
who's investing millions of dollars and opening new IVF clinics
all across the country.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
You have huntry like putting a band aid on a
bullet wound, Like you're not addressing that, why exactly women
aren't having babies?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, exactly, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And what's really interesting is there's one study that's been
done in the United States looking at corporations and state
level IVF mandates where they're offering to pay for it.
And while the really interesting takeaway from those five studies
was that when there's an IVF mandate in place, the
overall birth rate does not actually increase, but you do
(12:48):
see younger women slightly less likely to have children, and
you have older women slightly more likely to have children.
And in one study it actually showed us small delay
in marriage rates too, before and after the implementation. And
so what that suggests is that there's an unintended consequence
when these technologies are viewed as the solution to declining
birth rates, because it provides this hope that you can
(13:11):
delay children much longer than maybe would be biologically best
for your body. But then out the net result is
that you're actually far less likely to have a larger
family so if you don't start having kids until you're
in your forties, like you said, the number of children
that you can reasonably have is just much much lower.
(13:32):
And so I think that's also an interesting part of
this is like simply relying on these technologies, which has
certainly helped millions of men and women have children that
they deeply love and desire, is not going to actually
be the solution to declining birth rates, even if it
does help couples who are struggling with infertility.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So when we've looked at countries across the world who
have been doing a lot of these policies trying to
increase their birth rates, it's pretty clear that the cash
bonuses anywhere from three thousand to ten thousand for child
doesn't have a strong effect. That's one thing that we're
talking about doing here in the United States, but it
doesn't really. It sounds great, but it doesn't seem that
it has long term impact. Also, other countries have done
(14:11):
free childcare and some other supportive measures along those lines,
and those are the Democrats here in the United States.
They're big talking points, Well, if we had free child care,
if we had you know, these birth cash incentives, then
maybe we'd see a rise, but when we look globally,
it doesn't necessarily move the needle. Are there particular countries
whose strategies that you find, you know, instructive or cautionary.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, is a really great question. Yeah, it seems like
across the globe. Hungry is, of course one of the
biggest examples of a country who's invested I think up
to four to five percent of their national GDP in
these pro family policy measures and so on. The ones
say I think it's they've been well, it's really interesting.
(14:56):
They've been successful in boosting the marriage rates and the
abortion rate has declined as a consequence, but their birth
rate has unfortunately continued to decline again. It initially saw
a bomb and it started to decline, which is like,
not like this is something I think everyone is grieving.
This isn't ah, poor Hungary, like we're cheering that you
(15:17):
were wrong. This is something that I think has been
really instructive and really heartbreaking to see because clearly whatever
is causing the decline in birth rates isn't something that
can just be solved with these financial incentives and is
incredibly complicated and to your point, with paid childcare, paid
Parntal leave a number of these policies. None of them
have shown a reverse in the birth rate. Maybe it's
(15:40):
helped sustain birth rates so they're not falling as fast
as they otherwise would have. But the examples that we've
seen internationally have not actually worn the fruit. What's really
interesting is the countries that have either sustained their birth
rates or reversed birth rates. You have Israel, which is
an anomaly for a number of reasons, right like the
particular cultural context, religious context, on military context I think
(16:05):
has helped spur on a deep nationalism and desire to
have children. But you have a really interesting test case
in Romania where Romania has actually seen no, sorry, it's Georgia.
The country of Georgia has actually seen a really interesting
shift in birth rate. And it was because one of
the bishops of the Coptic Church came and said, I'll
(16:27):
baptize any babies that are born, you know, this year
onwards personally, And it was a really funny story because
they saw a surge in their birth rate after that.
And there's the sense I think where and this is
where we move beyond the economic question to actually address
declining birth rates. It one has to be situated in
the family. It can't simply be a conversation of you know, women,
(16:48):
apart from marriage and marriage it doesn't matter have more babies.
And two, there's this spiritual and religious component to this.
And this is beyond what should be a government policy,
right or a government initiative, But there's this very real
sense where happy and hope filled people tend to have babies.
People who believe in something greater than themselves, a transcendent God,
(17:13):
whatever religion that is, tend to be people who have
more children. You see this across many Muslim nations. You
see this across India, Israel, Georgia. In this instance, where
there's a high level of religiosity, this idea that you're
investing in something greater than yourself, you tend to see
higher birth rates. And I think there's a reason for
this twofold one is that religious states have a tend
(17:37):
to have a very good theology of suffering. And I
think anyone with children know that, like, having children is
a gift and it's a blessing and it's one of
the greatest things you can ever do, and yet it's
really incredibly hard and really hard things happen, whether it's
the loss of a child or injuries, or just the
fact that raising children is difficult in time consuming and
requires you giving so much of yourself within if you
(18:01):
abscribed to a religion, I think you see people who
have a good theology for thinking through suffering, suffering not
as an end in itself, but actually pointing towards a
greater good and a greater investment. And so I think
that's just a really interesting part of the conversation where
when we're thinking about encouraging family formation and boosting bird
rates in the United States, we need to have a
(18:22):
conversation we're having families is not only aspirational but attainable,
and that needs to be promoted not only by media
and conversations like these, not only in our political discourse,
but also among religious leaders and really spotlighting religious leaders
as essential yet leaders in this movement to help turn
help turn family formation.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Around more coming up on Wellness Unmasked with doctor Nicol Sapphire.
So we have President Trump who's talking about some things
that he wants to do to try and get the
birth rate up, especially after Elon Musk went on his
ex posting rampage all about it and got everybody up
in a tizzy, you know, with RFK Junior at HHS
(19:05):
and President Trump in the White House. In your view,
what are maybe the most impactful policies at the White
House or Congress or even just states can pursue. I
know that you say, we obviously want to get religious organizations,
communities all involved, but is there something on a policy level,
and you've obviously studied policies from all across the world,
what do you think can be done here in the
(19:25):
United States.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yes, and going back to what I said earlier, there's
no single solution, but I think there are a number
of smaller policies that, working together can hopefully boost and
even reverse declining birth rates. And so we at Heritage
and within my own research, we've very much taken all
hands on deck approach to this. So I think there
are a lot of things that the Executive that HHS
and even states can be doing to help encourage family
(19:49):
formation in birth rates in the United States. So a
couple of those things. One, I'm really interested in the
development of something like a family bonus, so some sort
of financial support for married, working families, much like the
baby bonus that President Trump has announced things like the
Baby Bond investment, I think are a way of showing
(20:11):
that we value and are willing to invest our resources
in children. I don't think any of those financial measures
in and of themselves are going to reverse trends or
be the solution, but I think it's part of a
larger package. They really positive things the United States can do.
At Heritage, we've really looked at revamping the entire tax
code to really focus on supporting married, working families. So
(20:33):
whether that's an increase in the child tax credit or
another metric, I think there's a lot that we can
do there. Paying taxes the last few years. We have
two children, and certainly the modest child tax credit that
we get is great, but I think everyone knows that
investing in children is far more expensive than just the
two thousand you get back for young children, and the
way that young children help stimulate the GDP. There's maybe
(20:56):
more we could do to help put money back in
the pockets of hardworking married families so that no one of.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
The ones that I saw, I think it was hungry.
They essentially said lifetime income tax exemption for mothers who
have four children or more. I'm a mother of three,
so I would advocate it should be at three. But
lifetime income tax exemption. I mean that would absolutely if
one of the concerns is the economics of raising children,
that would make a difference. They're also I think I've
(21:23):
seen like interest free housing loans. You could talk about
property taxes. I mean, there are all these ways to
the federal government could incentivize and state governments could incentivize
people to have babies.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, exactly, and simply saying if you want to have children,
we're here to relieve the financial pressures. What's really interesting
is Hungary initially had it set at I think four
more children, and I think they lowered the number down
to three or more children because they were struggling to
have women hit that number. So again, in and of itself,
I don't think it's going to be the thing that
(21:55):
changes the birth rate, but certainly it would be really
helpful for those who do have larger families. Beyond that,
I think a really important part of this conversation is
the fact that there is high rates of infertility in
the United States. There's a high rate of reproductive health conditions,
particularly for women, like indometriosis in pcos that have largely
gone undiagnosed or a delayed diagnosis, with very little research
(22:18):
and funding going into treating those conditions. So I think
this is where I spend a lot of my time researching.
But I think the more we can do to help
boost a federal or a state level restore act. Arkansas
actually just enacted the first state level Restore Act in April,
and it simply provides research and funding support for families
and individuals who are hoping to treat the reproductive health conditions,
(22:40):
recognizing that not only does it help remove barriers for
successful pregnancy, but it also just improves an individual's overall
health and well being, because we know that an individual's
reproductive health is a good indicator of their overall physical
health and their ability to flourish in their given season
of life. And so I think the more that we
can do to really help support and provide families with
(23:00):
the resources they need to address their infertility is a
huge part of this, right because how many millions of
Americans desperately want to have children and not just one
child later in life, but have a big family of kids,
and yet are struggling to do so. And I think
that should that should just be unacceptable given the medical innovation,
given the knowledge that we have the ability that we
(23:23):
have to treat disease in the United States, and so
that's I think another big part of this is helping
address infertility reproductive health conditions. And then beyond that, I
think there's a number of things that we could look
at doing improving our single family housing affordability in the
United States. I think the Senate is has just introduced
(23:43):
the Roads Act looking at addressing more affordable family housing.
I think that's a huge part of the conversation, A
bit outside of my individual expertise, but something that I
know my family and many families would love to see
shifts in. And yeah, then beyond that, I think this
becomes a massive cultural conversation. So one of the most
encouraging developments from the executive has been the presence of
(24:05):
young children in the White House. Again, so one of
my favorite things to watch is Vice President Jade Vance
and his family. So at inauguration, his three children sitting there.
His son like goes to hit his wife's hair and
you can see her just like keep the poise of like,
I have worked so hard for this hair you're not
going to mess it up, and yet just sort of
laughing and enjoying that. Like, kids are a little chaotic
and they're you know, you can't control what they're going
(24:27):
to do or when they're going to act out, or
what's going to happen, and yet it is good and
they are not only tolerated, but they're welcome in our
public spaces. And so seeing his children come off Air
Force one and their pajamas tour the world with them,
I think on a cultural level, that is such a
powerful example of the kind of the way that we
want to welcome children in again, not just as something
(24:48):
we tolerate, but is something that we celebrate, bringing them
to conferences, having them integrated in our life, so that
there's not this strict divide between work and the home,
but that we do everything we can to welcome children
in all public spaces, from our work to our public
communities and beyond. And I think those sorts of examples
being set by the most prominent leaders in the United
(25:11):
States is going to have a massive, even of subtle
impact on the way that we think about children and
family formation.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, you know what, I know a lot of people
are feeling discouraged when they heard Elon Musk talking about
it when they look across the world, and maybe even
after our conversation, they might be feeling, you know, discouraged
about as a population what we're doing. But is there
any hopeful message that you can give people just to
offer to them. I mean, I've had three children, I'm
doing my part, but what else for other people who
(25:39):
maybe haven't started having their kids yet.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, no, this is a really really great thing. So,
you know, I think the first thing I would say
is that for those who are on the fence about children,
we have research and self reported studies as well as
just many examples of families across the United States, myself included,
who have talked about what and just appsol, blessing and
delight children are. And for those who are really thinking
(26:04):
through the career dynamic how to have children, and I
think the thing I would say is that there are
always going to be unknowns in life, and there are
always going to be things that are beyond our control.
But without a doubt, having children is going to be
one of the greatest adventures that you endeavor on. It's
going to bring such a sense of purpose and meaning
in your life and be a way that you continue
(26:24):
to grow and mature as a person throughout time. So
I think that there's just this incredible opportunity before us
just to take a risk and jump in and trust
that having kids will be like learning how to walk.
It's a little awkward and difficult at first, but then
you just sort of figure it out as you go
and that it is a good thing, and that it's
something that certainly is and can be attainable for all Americans.
(26:47):
And I think the second thing I would say is
that it's never that, Yeah, this is the perfect opportunity
to consider what your overall family planning goals are, your
life planning goals, that this is the time to have
the conversation either with yourself, thinking through my career next
steps and we're to children in marriage, fit in, or
with your partner now and finding ways that even if
(27:10):
you don't have children, you can be supportive and involved
in others' lives. I think some of the like without
a doubt, the biggest blessings my husband and I have
experienced outside of having kids are our friends who have
stepped in and been an active part of their lives,
especially before they've been able to have kids, and so
they come and they hang out with their kids. They're
happy to babysit, they come for dinner. They are understanding
(27:31):
and accommodating when we have limitations because of young children,
or the fact that both of our mothers and families
have done so much to come and be present and
help with us. So I think even if you're outside
of your child grand years or not able to have
kids right now, asking how you can be involved in
the lives of others with kids is yeah, maybe one
of the next is one of the best things that
(27:51):
you can do. And I think that's where there's a
role for everyone to play in this conversation, because again, ultimately,
this isn't just a numbers game. It's not about, oh,
we're at one point nine, how can we get to
two point one and then everything's solved. But it's a
much bigger question of how do we actually support family
flourishing and human flourishing in the United States? And we
know that national prosperity, community flourishing, and individual happiness is
(28:14):
tied to those meaningful relationships, whether that's biological parenthood, adoptive parenthood,
or spiritual parenthood. In the lives of others. So I
think that's the hopeful message I would turn people to, yeah,
and to take time to just appreciate the adventure, however
chaotic that having kids and being involved in the lives
of kids brings you.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I love that appreciate the adventure well, Emma Waters from
the Heritage Foundation, thank you so much for giving us
your knowledge and really your hopeful message at the end.
I think is my favorite part, because I think that's
what people lack a lot these days, is they just
hear all the bad news. But there is hope and
it is incredibly meaningful to be a parent if you
choose to be. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Us, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well. We talk a lot about health on the show,
and the truth is family health, demographic health, and cultural health.
Obviously they're all intertwined. Now, Emma talked about a lot
of things, and one of the things that she touched
on is something that is very near and dearing my
heart is why are our fertility rates low? I'm not
just talking about why women are having fewer babies. There's
(29:17):
a lot of reasons whomen are having fewer babies, but
why are women unable to have babies like they were
able to twenty thirty forty fifty years ago. The answer is,
but we don't have a black or white answer to it.
It's probably multi factoral as well. Is it the microplastics
in our diet, the ultra processed foods? Is it all
the hormones that we consume in the meats that we eat.
(29:39):
You know, it's probably a lot of things. The reality
is our metabolic system is out of whack because of
our environmental exposures. RFK Junior with the AJHS, they are
wanting to look at some of these things. I am
watching this closely. I am hoping that they actually put
effort into this because while I think IVF and some
of the other fertility methods are amazing and for people
(30:02):
who otherwise wouldn't have been able to have babies, it
gives them the ability to be parents and that blessing.
I want to know the root causes of why women
are having ovarian failure earlier, why are we not able
to have babies? And unfortunately, I think it's going to
be a lot of environmental factors, very similar to why
we're seeing a rise in cancer as well, and it's
(30:23):
not going to be an easy fix. So that's just
one piece of the equation. We also need to focus
again on marriage and just the blessing that is to
have marriage. We are social creatures, we are meant to
have life partners. We're not meant to be alone in
this life. So we have to make sure we get
to back to the sanctity of marriage. Encourage families to
(30:43):
have babies if they want them. I'm not saying everyone
needs to have children. You can have a fulfilling life
without being a parent. But if you are someone who
is even contemplating wanting to have babies, I don't want
the cost your job or anything silly like that to
get in your way. Because it's a mother myself, I
can tell you there's no greater blessing in this earth
(31:05):
than to have children. So if there is something that
we can do as a society to support those who
want to have babies, we need to be doing that.
That needs to be a priority, not just because our
birth rates are declining and maybe it's going to be
the end of civilization as we know it, like Elon
Muss says, but because it's the right thing to do.
Thanks for listening to wellness On mass On America's number
one podcast network, iHeart Follow wellness on Mass with doctor
(31:28):
Nicole Staffire and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see
you next time.
Welcome to Wellness Unmass. I'm your host, doctor Cole Saffire,
and today we're diving into kind of a quiet but
potentially a consequential crisis. America's steadily declining birth rate. That's right,
when it comes to how many babies we're having, we
are below what it's recommended if we're going to keep
our population up, Meaning as our population continues to age,
(00:23):
we're having fewer and fewer babies. And ever since twenty
twenty three, our numbers are way below where it needs
to be. That two point one is that goal mark
they want people to be having on average about about
two kids per woman. Well, Elon Musk has been very
vocal about this for anybody who follows him on X,
I mean, he obviously makes headlines for a lot of reasons,
(00:43):
but he's absolutely been sounding the alarm on the very
issue we're going to be discussing. He said in quote
population collapse due to low birth rates is a much
bigger risk to civilization than global warning. Mark these words,
and he continues to say things like he argued that
we need a fertility rate of at least two point
seven children for women, so not two children for women,
(01:05):
but he's arguing up to three to stabilize the population
because so many today are choosing not to have children
at all. So why is that, Well, there's a lot
of reasons. There are fewer people getting married, people are
getting married and having babies later on in life, so
therefore they're having fewer kids. It's more expensive. We're also
(01:25):
seeing fertility issues here in the United States and across
the world. If you have menstruation changes in young girls,
a lot of women having difficulty having babies. And then
on top of that, the answer to everyone's problem seems
to be IVF. Well, IVF is expensive and it's not
something that everybody wants to do, and so instead of
tackling the root causes of why people aren't having as
(01:49):
many babies anymore, we keep just saying, all right, well,
we'll just do IVF or we'll do whatever it is,
but we need to look at some of the root causes.
I'm extremely excited today to have Emma Waters. She's a
policy expert at the Heritage Foundation. This is what she does.
She has studied policies all across the globe. Because the
United States were not the only ones with low birth rates.
In fact, there are a lot of other countries that
(02:11):
are much lower than ours, including Europe and Asia, and
so she has looked at all the policies that they've
done to see what works and what doesn't work. You're
listening to Wellness and Mass. We'll be right back with more, Okay,
well Joining me today is Emma Waters, policy expert at
the Heritage Foundation, where she focuses on family formation, marriage
(02:32):
and demographic trends. Emma has been one of the boldest
voices sounding the alarm on our declining birth rate and
pushing back against the idea that this is just an
inevitable shift. So, Emma, do you agree with Elon Musk
when he says that population collapse is truly our greatest
existential threat.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I think that Elon Musk has done more than almost
anyone to raise awareness about declining birth rates to a
national and even global scale. When he says that decline
birth rates are the number one demographic crisis, however, I
think that's where I probably would deviate a little bit
and say that it's not just declining birth rates that
we're concerned about, but it's the failure of millions of
(03:13):
families to form families in the United States. So it's
not simply that we're having fewer children, but it's that
fewer people are getting married and forming those necessary bonds
that really are the basis of our society.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So when you say that, I mean you are taking
this to a greater scale. Elon Musk is essentially saying,
we're just not having enough babies to replace, you know,
our aging population. We see it all over the world.
We have declining birth rates. They say that you want
to be at two point one births per woman to
be able to replace the population and continue to grow.
(03:48):
A lot of countries are below that, and since twenty
twenty three, the US is now below that as well.
But you are pointing to kind of bigger issues. It's
not just about how many babies women are having, but
the question is why aren't they having babies? And what
are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yeah, this is exactly right. So if you look beyond
even the twenty first century and go back to the
twentieth century, long before we had declining birth rates in
the United States, we had a marriage crisis, and so
from the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies onward, we saw
a divorce fight, We saw an increase in single parenthood.
Some of this was motivated by no fault divorce, some
(04:25):
of this by the sexual revolution and hookup culture. But
marriage was really redefined in the twentieth century and from
then onwards has shifted away from being the cornerstone or
the basis of a person's life that they build and
become the capstone something that they seek to sort of
tap a cap off their career success, their personal fulfillment.
(04:48):
And so with that shift to view marriage as something
we pursue later in life as an add on to
who we are, not the basis of maybe who we
are in our family and our nation. We've seen declining
birth rates come out of that, so you're absolutely right.
In twenty twenty three and then twenty twenty four, birth
rates then declining a lot in the United States, so
we're now down to one point five to nine berths
(05:10):
on average per woman, which is well below the replacement
rate of two point one. Now, the United States is
about neck and neck with most European nations on this front.
So developing nations and Israel tend to have a much
higher birth rate, but sadly, with the United States and Europe,
there's just been an ongoing downward trend. So the reasons
(05:32):
for that are complicated. And I like to say that
if anyone tells you that there's a single driver for
declining birth rates, they're probably trying to sell you something
which is usually a single solution for declining birth rates.
And I think both of those approaches really miss the
point here. And so there's a couple of things to
keep in mind. The first is the economic question, and
so the economic portion of this is really interesting to
(05:55):
me because on the one hand, there are serious economic
factors that make it hard to form and sustain families,
especially of multiple children today, and so there's a very
real sense that we do need to provide married, working
families with support in having the children and families that
they desire. On the other hand, across the United States
(06:17):
and the globe, when you see a country increase its
GDP or its affluenced material wealth, you see birth rates decline.
And so there's this inverted relationship where the more wealthy
a country becomes, the more wealthy estate becomes, their birth
rates tend to decline. And this is the case across
the United States. States with a higher median income have
(06:37):
a lower birth rate compared to state. I think so
there's a couple. I think there's a couple of potential things.
Catherine Bucolic a professor at Catholic University of America. She
makes the argument that children are no longer in economic necessity,
and so in lower income nations and potentially states, you
(06:59):
need to children to help support the family business, the
family well being, to work, to help take care of children,
there's more of an economic necessity for them, and certainly
that was more the case in the twentieth century than
the twenty first. But I think what you're also seeing
is an elevated expectation for what you should provide children.
So think about like my great grandparents they had like,
(07:22):
you know, eight kids, and they were like, all right, kids,
I fed you, I put you through school, you worked
on the farm, you turned eighteen, good luck, get out there,
figure something out. Very much like do it yourself mindset,
And there wasn't really an expectation that parents weren't necessarily
financially providing above the necessities for children, and certainly not
once they reached adulthood, whereas today there's this driving expectation
(07:45):
where parents are not only providing the car when they
turn sixteen, providing the best education that they can buy,
which oftentimes can be very pricey, providing a number of
other material goods, but also there's college, there's a wedding,
there's providing for your throughout. And while those are all
like very very good things, I think the expectation that
(08:05):
that's the norm to provide for every child has meant
that most families who aren't making above one hundred thousand
dollars are looking at and saying, well, I may be
able to do that for one kid, I may be
able to do it for two, but it's going to
be really hard to sustain through your four children at
that rate, and even for families making much more than that,
I think there's been a shift in our mindset where
(08:25):
we're hoping, where the expectation is you want to give
as much as possible to the children you can provide for,
which just tends to be fewer than a large family.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So I think like the materialism part of that is
interesting because it also means that simply.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Providing large cash or.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Financial incentives to have children I don't think really addresses
the problem because it just plays into that shift towards
materialism a little bit more so, countries across Europe who
have spent millions of dollars supporting families have not seen
an increase in their birth rates. And despite very generous programs,
(09:05):
most birth rates in Europe have continued to decline.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Not just Europe, right, We're talking all across the world.
I think Singapore, Japan, South Korea. They all gave like
the birth grants up to South Korea gave up to
ten thousand dollars birth grants per baby, plus free child
hare care, fertility subsidies, and housing perks for parents, and
they have still remained the world's lowest birth rate at
(09:30):
I think less than one point seven or something along
those lines.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Well, and South Korea is so interesting too because they
even give you paid time off for quote unquote pro
creation days, which.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Is hilarious, Like they really bring that to the United States, right.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So yeah, so the last yeah, no, it's it's really
and it's really interesting in South Korea because you also
see an increase. It's particularly in South Korea, China and
Japan where a number of women are simply saying that's fine,
like the government wants us to have more babies, but
like we really just care about our careers and it's
not like a bad thing. Bay it means right, like,
I love my job and the work that I do.
(10:05):
But there's this like interesting shift where it's not an
expectation that you can pursue marriage, motherhood and your career,
but that they're choosing between the two, and increasingly, especially
in those countries, they're choosing career and foregoing children in
marriage altogether. And I think there's a lot of cultural
baggage there that's being unpacked slowly but surely. But that's
(10:25):
another really interesting part of this, where I think women
in particular are feeling like they have to choose between
the two in a way that yeah, doesn't really match
for a good family or a desire to have many children.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Well that's an interesting point as myself. You know, I
went to college, to medical school, to advanced training being
a professional woman. You hear a lot of people when
they talk about the declining birthrate, is that, you know,
ever since education and women join the professional workforce, you know,
this just went hand in hand. And I can understand
that to some extent, and I think I actually saw
(10:58):
stat don't quote me, in the last year or two
there were more women in the United States in their
forties having babies than teenagers, which on one hand is
excellent that we're not having team as many teen pregnancies. However,
to be over forty, when you are over forty starting
to have your babies, the chances of you having more
than one drastically decrease, and on top of that, you
(11:21):
have more difficult time having a baby in general.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Yeah, that's absolutely right, and I think that's a part
of the conversation too, is just the age of first
marriage is raised, is rising continually, and the age of
first child is rising continually, and that brings in maybe
one of the more controversial parts of the conversation when
it comes to IVF or other assisted reproductive technologies. So
(11:47):
it's interesting is the CDC announced their announced this new
decline in birth rates last week, and then the next
day was National IVF Day. And so in many cases,
especially across the United States and actually across the Europe
and Asia, people have talked about IVF being the solution
for declining birth rates, that men and women are struggling
(12:07):
to have kids, they're waiting later. So you have China
who's investing millions of dollars and opening new IVF clinics
all across the country.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
You have huntry like putting a band aid on a
bullet wound, Like you're not addressing that, why exactly women
aren't having babies?
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, exactly, that's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And what's really interesting is there's one study that's been
done in the United States looking at corporations and state
level IVF mandates where they're offering to pay for it.
And while the really interesting takeaway from those five studies
was that when there's an IVF mandate in place, the
overall birth rate does not actually increase, but you do
(12:48):
see younger women slightly less likely to have children, and
you have older women slightly more likely to have children.
And in one study it actually showed us small delay
in marriage rates too, before and after the implementation. And
so what that suggests is that there's an unintended consequence
when these technologies are viewed as the solution to declining
birth rates, because it provides this hope that you can
(13:11):
delay children much longer than maybe would be biologically best
for your body. But then out the net result is
that you're actually far less likely to have a larger
family so if you don't start having kids until you're
in your forties, like you said, the number of children
that you can reasonably have is just much much lower.
(13:32):
And so I think that's also an interesting part of
this is like simply relying on these technologies, which has
certainly helped millions of men and women have children that
they deeply love and desire, is not going to actually
be the solution to declining birth rates, even if it
does help couples who are struggling with infertility.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
So when we've looked at countries across the world who
have been doing a lot of these policies trying to
increase their birth rates, it's pretty clear that the cash
bonuses anywhere from three thousand to ten thousand for child
doesn't have a strong effect. That's one thing that we're
talking about doing here in the United States, but it
doesn't really. It sounds great, but it doesn't seem that
it has long term impact. Also, other countries have done
(14:11):
free childcare and some other supportive measures along those lines,
and those are the Democrats here in the United States.
They're big talking points, Well, if we had free child care,
if we had you know, these birth cash incentives, then
maybe we'd see a rise, but when we look globally,
it doesn't necessarily move the needle. Are there particular countries
whose strategies that you find, you know, instructive or cautionary.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, is a really great question. Yeah, it seems like
across the globe. Hungry is, of course one of the
biggest examples of a country who's invested I think up
to four to five percent of their national GDP in
these pro family policy measures and so on. The ones
say I think it's they've been well, it's really interesting.
(14:56):
They've been successful in boosting the marriage rates and the
abortion rate has declined as a consequence, but their birth
rate has unfortunately continued to decline again. It initially saw
a bomb and it started to decline, which is like,
not like this is something I think everyone is grieving.
This isn't ah, poor Hungary, like we're cheering that you
(15:17):
were wrong. This is something that I think has been
really instructive and really heartbreaking to see because clearly whatever
is causing the decline in birth rates isn't something that
can just be solved with these financial incentives and is
incredibly complicated and to your point, with paid childcare, paid
Parntal leave a number of these policies. None of them
have shown a reverse in the birth rate. Maybe it's
(15:40):
helped sustain birth rates so they're not falling as fast
as they otherwise would have. But the examples that we've
seen internationally have not actually worn the fruit. What's really
interesting is the countries that have either sustained their birth
rates or reversed birth rates. You have Israel, which is
an anomaly for a number of reasons, right like the
particular cultural context, religious context, on military context I think
(16:05):
has helped spur on a deep nationalism and desire to
have children. But you have a really interesting test case
in Romania where Romania has actually seen no, sorry, it's Georgia.
The country of Georgia has actually seen a really interesting
shift in birth rate. And it was because one of
the bishops of the Coptic Church came and said, I'll
(16:27):
baptize any babies that are born, you know, this year
onwards personally, And it was a really funny story because
they saw a surge in their birth rate after that.
And there's the sense I think where and this is
where we move beyond the economic question to actually address
declining birth rates. It one has to be situated in
the family. It can't simply be a conversation of you know, women,
(16:48):
apart from marriage and marriage it doesn't matter have more babies.
And two, there's this spiritual and religious component to this.
And this is beyond what should be a government policy,
right or a government initiative, But there's this very real
sense where happy and hope filled people tend to have babies.
People who believe in something greater than themselves, a transcendent God,
(17:13):
whatever religion that is, tend to be people who have
more children. You see this across many Muslim nations. You
see this across India, Israel, Georgia. In this instance, where
there's a high level of religiosity, this idea that you're
investing in something greater than yourself, you tend to see
higher birth rates. And I think there's a reason for
this twofold one is that religious states have a tend
(17:37):
to have a very good theology of suffering. And I
think anyone with children know that, like, having children is
a gift and it's a blessing and it's one of
the greatest things you can ever do, and yet it's
really incredibly hard and really hard things happen, whether it's
the loss of a child or injuries, or just the
fact that raising children is difficult in time consuming and
requires you giving so much of yourself within if you
(18:01):
abscribed to a religion, I think you see people who
have a good theology for thinking through suffering, suffering not
as an end in itself, but actually pointing towards a
greater good and a greater investment. And so I think
that's just a really interesting part of the conversation where
when we're thinking about encouraging family formation and boosting bird
rates in the United States, we need to have a
(18:22):
conversation we're having families is not only aspirational but attainable,
and that needs to be promoted not only by media
and conversations like these, not only in our political discourse,
but also among religious leaders and really spotlighting religious leaders
as essential yet leaders in this movement to help turn
help turn family formation.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Around more coming up on Wellness Unmasked with doctor Nicol Sapphire.
So we have President Trump who's talking about some things
that he wants to do to try and get the
birth rate up, especially after Elon Musk went on his
ex posting rampage all about it and got everybody up
in a tizzy, you know, with RFK Junior at HHS
(19:05):
and President Trump in the White House. In your view,
what are maybe the most impactful policies at the White
House or Congress or even just states can pursue. I
know that you say, we obviously want to get religious organizations,
communities all involved, but is there something on a policy level,
and you've obviously studied policies from all across the world,
what do you think can be done here in the
(19:25):
United States.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yes, and going back to what I said earlier, there's
no single solution, but I think there are a number
of smaller policies that, working together can hopefully boost and
even reverse declining birth rates. And so we at Heritage
and within my own research, we've very much taken all
hands on deck approach to this. So I think there
are a lot of things that the Executive that HHS
and even states can be doing to help encourage family
(19:49):
formation in birth rates in the United States. So a
couple of those things. One, I'm really interested in the
development of something like a family bonus, so some sort
of financial support for married, working families, much like the
baby bonus that President Trump has announced things like the
Baby Bond investment, I think are a way of showing
(20:11):
that we value and are willing to invest our resources
in children. I don't think any of those financial measures
in and of themselves are going to reverse trends or
be the solution, but I think it's part of a
larger package. They really positive things the United States can do.
At Heritage, we've really looked at revamping the entire tax
code to really focus on supporting married, working families. So
(20:33):
whether that's an increase in the child tax credit or
another metric, I think there's a lot that we can
do there. Paying taxes the last few years. We have
two children, and certainly the modest child tax credit that
we get is great, but I think everyone knows that
investing in children is far more expensive than just the
two thousand you get back for young children, and the
way that young children help stimulate the GDP. There's maybe
(20:56):
more we could do to help put money back in
the pockets of hardworking married families so that no one of.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
The ones that I saw, I think it was hungry.
They essentially said lifetime income tax exemption for mothers who
have four children or more. I'm a mother of three,
so I would advocate it should be at three. But
lifetime income tax exemption. I mean that would absolutely if
one of the concerns is the economics of raising children,
that would make a difference. They're also I think I've
(21:23):
seen like interest free housing loans. You could talk about
property taxes. I mean, there are all these ways to
the federal government could incentivize and state governments could incentivize
people to have babies.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, exactly, and simply saying if you want to have children,
we're here to relieve the financial pressures. What's really interesting
is Hungary initially had it set at I think four
more children, and I think they lowered the number down
to three or more children because they were struggling to
have women hit that number. So again, in and of itself,
I don't think it's going to be the thing that
(21:55):
changes the birth rate, but certainly it would be really
helpful for those who do have larger families. Beyond that,
I think a really important part of this conversation is
the fact that there is high rates of infertility in
the United States. There's a high rate of reproductive health conditions,
particularly for women, like indometriosis in pcos that have largely
gone undiagnosed or a delayed diagnosis, with very little research
(22:18):
and funding going into treating those conditions. So I think
this is where I spend a lot of my time researching.
But I think the more we can do to help
boost a federal or a state level restore act. Arkansas
actually just enacted the first state level Restore Act in April,
and it simply provides research and funding support for families
and individuals who are hoping to treat the reproductive health conditions,
(22:40):
recognizing that not only does it help remove barriers for
successful pregnancy, but it also just improves an individual's overall
health and well being, because we know that an individual's
reproductive health is a good indicator of their overall physical
health and their ability to flourish in their given season
of life. And so I think the more that we
can do to really help support and provide families with
(23:00):
the resources they need to address their infertility is a
huge part of this, right because how many millions of
Americans desperately want to have children and not just one
child later in life, but have a big family of kids,
and yet are struggling to do so. And I think
that should that should just be unacceptable given the medical innovation,
given the knowledge that we have the ability that we
(23:23):
have to treat disease in the United States, and so
that's I think another big part of this is helping
address infertility reproductive health conditions. And then beyond that, I
think there's a number of things that we could look
at doing improving our single family housing affordability in the
United States. I think the Senate is has just introduced
(23:43):
the Roads Act looking at addressing more affordable family housing.
I think that's a huge part of the conversation, A
bit outside of my individual expertise, but something that I
know my family and many families would love to see
shifts in. And yeah, then beyond that, I think this
becomes a massive cultural conversation. So one of the most
encouraging developments from the executive has been the presence of
(24:05):
young children in the White House. Again, so one of
my favorite things to watch is Vice President Jade Vance
and his family. So at inauguration, his three children sitting there.
His son like goes to hit his wife's hair and
you can see her just like keep the poise of like,
I have worked so hard for this hair you're not
going to mess it up, and yet just sort of
laughing and enjoying that. Like, kids are a little chaotic
and they're you know, you can't control what they're going
(24:27):
to do or when they're going to act out, or
what's going to happen, and yet it is good and
they are not only tolerated, but they're welcome in our
public spaces. And so seeing his children come off Air
Force one and their pajamas tour the world with them,
I think on a cultural level, that is such a
powerful example of the kind of the way that we
want to welcome children in again, not just as something
(24:48):
we tolerate, but is something that we celebrate, bringing them
to conferences, having them integrated in our life, so that
there's not this strict divide between work and the home,
but that we do everything we can to welcome children
in all public spaces, from our work to our public
communities and beyond. And I think those sorts of examples
being set by the most prominent leaders in the United
(25:11):
States is going to have a massive, even of subtle
impact on the way that we think about children and
family formation.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Well, you know what, I know a lot of people
are feeling discouraged when they heard Elon Musk talking about
it when they look across the world, and maybe even
after our conversation, they might be feeling, you know, discouraged
about as a population what we're doing. But is there
any hopeful message that you can give people just to
offer to them. I mean, I've had three children, I'm
doing my part, but what else for other people who
(25:39):
maybe haven't started having their kids yet.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, no, this is a really really great thing. So,
you know, I think the first thing I would say
is that for those who are on the fence about children,
we have research and self reported studies as well as
just many examples of families across the United States, myself included,
who have talked about what and just appsol, blessing and
delight children are. And for those who are really thinking
(26:04):
through the career dynamic how to have children, and I
think the thing I would say is that there are
always going to be unknowns in life, and there are
always going to be things that are beyond our control.
But without a doubt, having children is going to be
one of the greatest adventures that you endeavor on. It's
going to bring such a sense of purpose and meaning
in your life and be a way that you continue
(26:24):
to grow and mature as a person throughout time. So
I think that there's just this incredible opportunity before us
just to take a risk and jump in and trust
that having kids will be like learning how to walk.
It's a little awkward and difficult at first, but then
you just sort of figure it out as you go
and that it is a good thing, and that it's
something that certainly is and can be attainable for all Americans.
(26:47):
And I think the second thing I would say is
that it's never that, Yeah, this is the perfect opportunity
to consider what your overall family planning goals are, your
life planning goals, that this is the time to have
the conversation either with yourself, thinking through my career next
steps and we're to children in marriage, fit in, or
with your partner now and finding ways that even if
(27:10):
you don't have children, you can be supportive and involved
in others' lives. I think some of the like without
a doubt, the biggest blessings my husband and I have
experienced outside of having kids are our friends who have
stepped in and been an active part of their lives,
especially before they've been able to have kids, and so
they come and they hang out with their kids. They're
happy to babysit, they come for dinner. They are understanding
(27:31):
and accommodating when we have limitations because of young children,
or the fact that both of our mothers and families
have done so much to come and be present and
help with us. So I think even if you're outside
of your child grand years or not able to have
kids right now, asking how you can be involved in
the lives of others with kids is yeah, maybe one
of the next is one of the best things that
(27:51):
you can do. And I think that's where there's a
role for everyone to play in this conversation, because again, ultimately,
this isn't just a numbers game. It's not about, oh,
we're at one point nine, how can we get to
two point one and then everything's solved. But it's a
much bigger question of how do we actually support family
flourishing and human flourishing in the United States? And we
know that national prosperity, community flourishing, and individual happiness is
(28:14):
tied to those meaningful relationships, whether that's biological parenthood, adoptive parenthood,
or spiritual parenthood. In the lives of others. So I
think that's the hopeful message I would turn people to, yeah,
and to take time to just appreciate the adventure, however
chaotic that having kids and being involved in the lives
of kids brings you.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I love that appreciate the adventure well, Emma Waters from
the Heritage Foundation, thank you so much for giving us
your knowledge and really your hopeful message at the end.
I think is my favorite part, because I think that's
what people lack a lot these days, is they just
hear all the bad news. But there is hope and
it is incredibly meaningful to be a parent if you
choose to be. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Us, absolutely, thank you.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well. We talk a lot about health on the show,
and the truth is family health, demographic health, and cultural health.
Obviously they're all intertwined. Now, Emma talked about a lot
of things, and one of the things that she touched
on is something that is very near and dearing my
heart is why are our fertility rates low? I'm not
just talking about why women are having fewer babies. There's
(29:17):
a lot of reasons whomen are having fewer babies, but
why are women unable to have babies like they were
able to twenty thirty forty fifty years ago. The answer is,
but we don't have a black or white answer to it.
It's probably multi factoral as well. Is it the microplastics
in our diet, the ultra processed foods? Is it all
the hormones that we consume in the meats that we eat.
(29:39):
You know, it's probably a lot of things. The reality
is our metabolic system is out of whack because of
our environmental exposures. RFK Junior with the AJHS, they are
wanting to look at some of these things. I am
watching this closely. I am hoping that they actually put
effort into this because while I think IVF and some
of the other fertility methods are amazing and for people
(30:02):
who otherwise wouldn't have been able to have babies, it
gives them the ability to be parents and that blessing.
I want to know the root causes of why women
are having ovarian failure earlier, why are we not able
to have babies? And unfortunately, I think it's going to
be a lot of environmental factors, very similar to why
we're seeing a rise in cancer as well, and it's
(30:23):
not going to be an easy fix. So that's just
one piece of the equation. We also need to focus
again on marriage and just the blessing that is to
have marriage. We are social creatures, we are meant to
have life partners. We're not meant to be alone in
this life. So we have to make sure we get
to back to the sanctity of marriage. Encourage families to
(30:43):
have babies if they want them. I'm not saying everyone
needs to have children. You can have a fulfilling life
without being a parent. But if you are someone who
is even contemplating wanting to have babies, I don't want
the cost your job or anything silly like that to
get in your way. Because it's a mother myself, I
can tell you there's no greater blessing in this earth
(31:05):
than to have children. So if there is something that
we can do as a society to support those who
want to have babies, we need to be doing that.
That needs to be a priority, not just because our
birth rates are declining and maybe it's going to be
the end of civilization as we know it, like Elon
Muss says, but because it's the right thing to do.
Thanks for listening to wellness On mass On America's number
one podcast network, iHeart Follow wellness on Mass with doctor
(31:28):
Nicole Staffire and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app
or wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see
you next time.
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